Raw w/ Marcia Gay Harden

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories, done done.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Christmas bells are ringing thir third episode. You guys are
still getting to know us, So just a reminder. I'm
Kara Klank, I'm Liza Traeger. What we're going to do
is take you through an episode of Law and Order
s FW. It's today's episode is raw. It's season seven,
episode six.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Truly, nothing gives more Christmas vibes than a neo Nazi murder.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Spree, right, and then we're going to take you through
the true events that this was based on. And then
we have truly a show stopping interview for you, like
you're gonna you're gonna be really gagged. Yeah, what's going on?
It's the holiday season and jingle bells or jingle jangling.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
What's going on with you?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm just excited for the after Christmas candy sales.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
That's where my family shines that.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, after holiday candy at Walgreens is my favorite thing
of all time.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Cadbury mini eggs.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh my god, wait, oh, because they have the seasonal ones.
You know, my back drop on Twitter before I changed
it to be that's messed up was Cadbury Mini Eggs.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
I no, I don't know. You know, I only learned
about them two years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I could take down one of those like pound bags
like on my own. I actually can't buy them. I
have to seek out CBS is where they sell the
small pat the bags, because that's all I can trust
myself with.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
One time I went to the counter with the box
of the little ones and they went, this isn't for sale.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
They're little baggies.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
And I tried to like buy a whole display of them,
and they rejected me.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
But like they could have sold you all the little
baggies and then just bought them back in the box.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I wanted to shame me. Oh my god, they went
in and I love the peppermint. Yeah, candy is my
favorite thing about Christmas. And this year, since we can't
do go to the movies or do anything, we're gonna
drive around rich neighborhoods and look at lights.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Oh that's fun. I tried to get into the Christmas
spirit watching that movie Happiest Season. Yes, did you watch it.
Of course I watched it.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
It is written by an svu alum Cleia Duval.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh, yes, she has an amazing episode. We'll have to
a horrifying one.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, well, because I always love in that show where
it's like Stabler can be shot five times in the
chest and he's living, and then if they want to
kill someone and it's like one stab and they're out,
So just like inconsistent whatever.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
I don't know, it was Dabler.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's just so tough that bullets can brely penetrate his form.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
But I wish there was more sex scenes. Yeah, I
mean there are zero.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
But people were really hating on this movie really hard
because the well, the female protagonist is Christis Seuwart, but
the and the other woman who plays Harper is very hateable.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
People really did not like her. Yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Everyone wanted her to end up with Aubrey Plaza and
I agree.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
And there were drag queens in.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
It, yeah, Bendala Crub and Jinx Monsoon icons only.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
What's your favorite Christmas movie? I mean, I love Home Alone. Okay,
I really love Home Alone. I can't think of another
one that right now that's coming to mind.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
I'll tell you my favorite. It's different ken yours. It's
The Family of Stone, Oh.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Which I recently a friend of ours recently asked if
we wanted to watch that over zoom together, and I go,
I don't actually think I've seen the whole thing. I've
seen only pieces of it, but I've cried at it.
I've seen the crying parts. And then we could talk
about Christmas all day, all night long. But this is
for two Juwises. We love Christmas.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, I hope my dream is a pink Christmas tree
with Hello Kitty ornaments all over it. Anyways, just one
more thing before we get into everything is episode one.
I talked about how I was at the Pailey Center
event of SVU standing out in the rain to look
at Marishka, and we got an e from another woman
that was standing in the rain that night, and she
said it was the best night of her life and

(04:06):
she remembers Marishka's leather pants and everything. So I can't
believe already we found my goal. Amazing. I mean, this
is like the notebook too. We're writing it right here
in front of you, guys. All right, so let's dive in.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Alright, let's get into today's episode, which is called Raw
and it is season seven, episode six.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
It is funny because on USA, I always hate one WWE.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Brought me.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Because they're stealing SVU from me, and this is one
of my favorites. And I feel like I say that
all the time, but this one truly does haunt me.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
To sticks with you. It sticks with you, and I'm
so excited. Yeah, okay, So this episode opens on a
Manhattan playground. A bunch of super cute kids are just
playing and being cute.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
They're like showing each other cravmagamas blah blah blah, and
then a gun shot. A bunch of gunshots ring out.
It's so sad. The kids are so scared. I'm like
too much of a sap for this scene.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
Like they're they're all like what what what's happening?

Speaker 2 (05:12):
I mean, s for you has lost their mind. It's
not thirty seconds in. Three kids are shot.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, three kids are shot by the time the first
credit pops up.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
It's a lot. Yeah, and I love that the kids
are doing kravma goad Hey fanaton kids. Yeah. So yeah,
So these kids are all screaming everywhere. The teachers are
running get them in the get them in school, but
we see like a little boy on the ground, like
in a pool of blood, and it's.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Clear that they're not all going to make it. So
then Benson is stable to show up. The wind is
absolutely sweeping through Benson's hair.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
This was I don't know how to define Benson's hair
in this one. It's like Tony Dan's a female politician. Yeah,
it's like a long bob and Miley floppy.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah, ooh, a lot of good words. I couldn't describe all.
I'm Miley floppy. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
But as she's approaching the playground, it's like the wind
is just lifting it up.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
It's like a wave of beautifully like highlighted hair. Yeah. Yeah.
So there's one little girl and there's one little girl
named Annabelle who got shot in the shoulder and like,
and Benson's like, what happens, sweetheart, tell me all the details,
you know.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Benson's so cute with kids. And then but the kid
is legit like it hurts. She's like me alone, and uh,
She's just like what did I do? Why did they
shoot me? Okay, so we are in the top of
act one with Elliott.

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Having to interview forty two children. Okay, we see comedy gold. Yeah,
it's great. So this little girl with a raspy voice,
she reminds me of like a little you. She's like
a little raspy voice. She's like high, like I don't know,
I thought she was literature's like she was like I
was calling her tiny Lisa in my notes makes me
but her name is actually Maddie.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
So she's being interviewed. All these different kids are being interviewed.
They're cutting the tween all these interviews. The kids are
like all giving varying stories, like the shots came from
the sidewalk, No, they came from a van. No, they
came from a building with windows across the street. People
were shooting from all different directions. It was a bunch
of people with guns. No, it was one person. So
then they're talking to this little boy who got shot
at the doctor's telling him don't worry, you'll be running

(07:18):
marathons again in no.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Time, and he's like, but I never wan a mail
of fond. It's so cute.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
So SVU definitely knows how to cut the tension when
multiple kids have been shot, Like they're like.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
Let's give him a cute line. So there's no ballistics.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
The bullet is still on the playground somewhere, and they
basically figure out that the shooter was like a sniper
on a roof nearby, so he was like on a roof.
They find the gun like hidden in a some kind
of like an obo case. Yeah, but it's also like
shoved down into some kind of like roof roof place.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how to say it. You know,
they're like those things that spin at the top of rooms.
I don't know what those are. Which is bold for
someone to just leave the murder weapon like that.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, like they hit it so that they wouldn't get busted,
like running from the scene with like a huge sniper
rifle because it's like a rifle with like a sight
and all this.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Like, Yeah, this I just find I think it's like
the number one rule of murder is maybe don't leave evidence. Yeah,
So it just seems crazy to leave a giant gun, right,
not even a baby gun.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
This is like, no, it's a long gun. It's a
huge gun.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
So there's one little boy named Jeffrey who doesn't make
it a little black boy. His mother shows up at
the hospital.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
She is white.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
She is his adoptive mother, and Benson has to tell
her that her son is did not make it.

Speaker 4 (08:35):
People always feel comfortable hugging.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Olivia Benson, like right after they get bad news, like
it would not be my in like first thought to
like hub a police officer that gave me this news, but.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
It might be anyone if there's like something so traumatic,
so horrible. Yeah, I don't know if I need to
share this, but when I worked at a Harislon in
a call center, one of my favorite coworkers ever got
to call his sister died and he all into my
arms and I kind of carried him too the.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Car like a friend a coworker. We would just see
McDonald's age.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
I don't know if I was an emotional like we
would talk shit and like dance and like be me
in to our bosses. But like I don't think he
would say, like that's the person I would reach for
for help.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
But I was, there's not your number one, but you're
I think it's a little different from like a random
cop you met three seconds earlier. But she told the news,
Yeah I got.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
You, And I do want to give props to the
wardrobe department. She I liked her outfit. It was like
all pink, baby, pink little florals, and you know, just
like an innocence to her the mom.

Speaker 4 (09:36):
The mom, Yeah, like I just realized.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
She has like.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Big eyes that are like filled with tears. She's really upset.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
She's like, you know, my husband has a job where
you can't pick up his phone.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Like, so we find out that her husband is a
corrections officer at Rikers. So that's a million bells go
off for because it's like, yeah, you're you're motives going
to be on a lot of people's shit.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
List if you're a CEO at Rikers.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
So we I know that this couple adopted Jeffrey, the
little boy who passed from the foster system.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
And he's a seven He was a seven year old
black boy.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, so he was he was adopted. Like they wanted
to adopt, but adoption is so expensive. They wanted to
get someone from the foster system. The kids that are
over seven are more like readyly available for adoption, so
you know, you don't have to be rich to give
a good kid a home or whatever. Then back at
the school, the kids are running everywhere trying to be
reunited with their parents after the shooting, Huang is randomly

(10:29):
like corraling like second graders.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
It's really funny. It just looks like a fucking camp retreat.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, like there's just been a shooting and they were
just like opened the gates and the parents and kids.
Yeah yeah, I think there would be more of a
checks and balances.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
So they were like, there's a counselor inside if your
kid needs stuff, and it's like what they just so
their friends get shot and killed. It's like you're creating
more SVU cases by just letting these kids go off
with whatever adult is around. Okay, so then we in
like the background little Lisa from before, Maddie is like
freaking out and like screaming and like I don't want

(11:04):
to go home and like so they have to obviously
investigate that, so they talked to her again. Olivia talks
to her and she tells them that someone has been
hurting her, makes her poll her pants down. His name
is mister bug Eyes, and the mom is like, that's
mister Boughzy. She has a hard time saying his name.
So cute.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
So they get to this guy's house mister Boghese, and
Maddie's uncle is randomly like beating the shit out of
him until he's unconscious.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
My uncle's hot. Yeah, the news spread pretty fast. It
was like they just had an interrogation text uncle. The
mom texts her brother and goes this fucking guy and
then he just headed right over and beat the guy
like unconscious. I've never been.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
So turned on outside of you know, our maloney Dean Winters. Yeah,
I liked him, okay stageas bank Bank.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
I know that's a disgusting him. I hate myself. They
so they trace the.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Gun that they found on the roof to a place
called gun Ho in Staten Island.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
Puns go.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Also, I want to give a shout out to sv
for having a red harring molestation in the middle of
a school shooting episode.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
That just like wraps up. But Gayzy has a alibi.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's definitely not him. He's just molesting little girls. He's
not shooting kids.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
He had just a side project. Yeah, this department.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, so they kind of wrap up that case in
ten seconds, and then they trace this gun. They it's
a munch and Stabler go to Staten Island. They go
to this store. They see this sixteen year old is there.
He's like an Arian Nation poster boy. His name is
Kyle Ackerman, and he's like, you can't come in, and
then they're like, yeah, we can let us in, and
so he lets them in and they go down to

(12:44):
the basement of this store.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
They see a huge swastika on the wall.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Like they're all this literature about like anti semitism and
racism is being stacked up and distributed. And who is
there working on the literature but Star Marcia gay Harden,
a great character, a great actress, playing this super racist
woman named Star, named Star, and she's like super pumped

(13:10):
and ready to be racist. She like immediately makes like
a sniff and then makes like a take in a
back face when she is near Munch and goes ju
and I'm like, do.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
We have a smell? I didn't know. I didn't know.
She calls the little kid. I don't even know she
said it.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
I don't think we should be saying she says all
these racist things about the little kid. I'm not going
to trigger anyone. I'm not going to say these horrible words.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
I just wouldn't want to say any of them. I
would want to say anything.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
You're honestly shocking to hear this episode is earlier season seven.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
Yeah, it's two thousand and five, and it.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Seems like an Andy Cohene Watch What Happens Live drinking
game where they're.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Like drinks every time you hear Star says something insanely racist.
Oh yeah yeah, like any any of the characters, like
you would be wasted. This episode is jam packed, Like
the writer's room was like looking up at like a
racist thesaurus.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah, like they they are in an urban dictionary. The salt
they could get all episode long.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, and then she slaps Munch and calls him a
Jewish slur, like it's crazy.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
She must have said something to Finn, not until we
get to because he's not there. So it's just Munch
of maloney. Yeah, it's a bunch of Maloney is a
good Catholic boy.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, so she's probably like honestly got a boner for him.
She's like, you white. But they bring her into this
squad room. She's calling it juw York City.

Speaker 5 (14:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
She calls ice Tea bad names. It's like truly wild.
They figure out that the kids who were shot are black, Jewish,
and Italian, like the little girl was Italian. The little
boy who runs a Malifon he was Jewish, and then
the little boy who died was black. The person who
signed off for the gun was like G.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Rockwell. It was just written as G. Rockwell. So they're
all trying to figure out who this Rockwell person is.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
They figure out also that the owner of the store,
whose name is Brian Ackerman, runs a website site called
blitzkrieg warriors dot org, the official site of Raw revolution
Aaryan Warriors. He's just like a huge, huge, huge white supremacist.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
So Nazi gun shop.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, yeah, it made me think about our current climate
in terms of like how the boy and the dow
were like so anti cop, like these are our rights.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Don't come into the store, you can't be here.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
And yet you know, they they tout around like the
guns are to protect them from law enforcement. And now
the Nazis are the police. The police are the Nazis.
They're protecting gas stations and the cops, and it's like
nothing is real. I thought you guys were four people's
were you know. I mean, I know what it is.
They're just for racism and they don't give a shit
about anything. But it is while to see these Nazis

(15:43):
be so Protective.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Well, it's crazy also that this episode is from two
thousand and five, fifteen years ago and could truly be
about like a rip from the headlines about.

Speaker 4 (15:51):
Today, you know, like it's just it's sad. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
So Huang has a big revelation. He goes, hate groups
love the Internet. It's like, yeah, like it was built
for them and by them. Hitler youth are alive and well,
says Craigan. The kid Kyle is in the squad room
showing them this game he's made on the website called
Final Solution, which if you don't know what that is
in reference to, you need to read up on some

(16:15):
World War two Holocaust history. This kid has the high
score and killing Jewish people in this game.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
It's basically like what's the ride Revolute? What's the driving game?

Speaker 4 (16:25):
Oh, Grand Theft, Grand Theft?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, it's like Grand Theft Auto, but you kill minorities
and Jews.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
Yeah, cool game.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
And look, and the graphics are like Doom if anyone
played on Microsoft's ever, They're not good.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
They're not good.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
The Nazis really don't know about fons or graphics.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
No, no, none of the literature looked good. It was bad. Yeah,
and I'm sure you're about to say this, so I'm
not going to ruin this for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Then Kyle says something about your kind while talking to
Iced Tea, and Iced Tea's like, what do you mean
by that?

Speaker 4 (16:59):
And he calls him the N word full in two
thousand and five on NBC. What is going on? I'm
like so surprised that that was allowed on like standard.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
I guess you can argue in standards and practices or
whatever that it's like this, it has to be said
so we can address it. We're clearly making it wrong
to say it, like you know, but still wild.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
It was shocking, very shocked so and great acting by
the kid. He looks like a Nazi kid for sure.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Yeah, and like he's he's been completely brainwashed. I wonder
how they.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Talked to him on set, how they prepped him, Like
I say the N word to Iced Tea, Yeah, isn't
he the cop killer?

Speaker 5 (17:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (17:38):
He's like I know this little white kid who's like
is talking to his agent like should I do it?

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (17:45):
So this kid saying all this crazy shit to Finn,
like you draw the short end of the genetic straw,
like horrible that his dad blows into the squad and
is like, does anyone speak English here? And then you know,
Craigan shows up and he's like, I'm in charge, and
he's like, oh, I didn't know white men could be
in positions of power anymore unless you're a homosexual. Like
he's just fully like spraying his like, you know, bigotry

(18:08):
all over the place, the sky and again.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
What you said earlier so relevant to today, yesterday, always
and forever. This dude exists, he has existed, and it's
just like these white losers who think they're victims of
something and it's like.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
You're not. Kragan's in charts, you don't know anything. I
just hate him. No, he's the worst. We're supposed to
hate him. Yeh'd be crazy.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
He's yeah, like he's designed to be like a little
bite size, hatable asshole. Obviously, Benson jumps in and he goes, ah,
the requisite tuna feminist, why don't you stay out of
this one?

Speaker 4 (18:41):
Hillary? What going? I guess the primary? Like she was
running for the primaries two thousand and five, I think
when she was running for senator or something. I don't
think she ran for president six.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
No, but she tried to she did. Yeah, she was
in the primaries between Obama and Hill.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
That was later though. That was it until like like
eight she ran again. So I don't know.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
I'm just saying I think this may have been when
she was a senator, and I don't know. She's always
been a figurehead for assholes, Like yeah, I just don't
understand why he said the word tuna.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
I mean, I mean, I can guess. It's just really
that's pretty vile. His son said the N word. You
think he's not going to say tuna.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
I know he walked into a cop room and snapped,
Yeah he's a citizen.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, he's just like a full Trump voter showing up
in the squad room like the ghost of racism future.
And it's just really sad that this man is still
all over the place. They basically figure out that g
Rockwell is the founder of the Nazi Party, so that's
who signed the receipt. It's obviously not a true signature.
The crime lab found DNA on the gun belonging to
Brandon Lee Redding, who is a Nazi skinhead.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
Should we missed my other hottie.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
They ask a cop a black Musca to remove the
Nazis from the squadron, and he's like, my no problem.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Yeah, and he was hot.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, that was a hot guy. You're right, you're like
been married too long, maybe you're I know, I.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Don't have it picking, but I have to agree. So
they show up at Brandonlee Redding's house. He's a Nazi skinhead.
He's got a huge tattoo on his back that says
rajo wah, which stands for a racial Holy War. He
literally screamed no colors allowed when they walk into his apartment.
It's like, I that's language from the FA.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Just such great imagery where it's like they think, like
Nazis think they're the master race, and yet it's like
a mattress on the floor, no decoration, his bottle caps.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
Taped taped to the ceiling in the shape of a swastika,
Like that's your art.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, Like these people offer nothing to the world and
yet try to take down anyone that offers any beauty
our jo our land.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
So the timeline basically goes he was just released from rikers,
he went and bought the rifle. Then this kid was shot.
He's claiming the rifle was stolen. So the dad of
the little boy who died shows up and goes, this
guy wasn't even on my cell block, Like, I don't
know why this guy would have it out for me.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
This like doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Okay, So then we meet this guy, Hashi Horowitz, who
is a played by Jogerfosse. He's been on thirteen episodes
of SVU. He's like a recurring defense attorney, obviously a
Jewish man, and he's droopy.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
He looks like, yeah, looks like confidentially I'm the star
of this picture.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah. He is very droopy and very I like this man.

Speaker 4 (21:24):
And he kind of sits there and just grins and
bear bears it as his client calls him his jew lawyer.

Speaker 5 (21:30):
You know.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Also, this guy's name is Brandon Lee reading the Nazis
always have three names, right, all the like, these guys
always have three names.

Speaker 4 (21:38):
Anyway, he tries to.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Hit on Novak. He's like, let's make white babies together.
Novak's like about to barf. And then we get to court. Okay,
So we're getting to the trial of Brendanley Redding and
the judge starts opens up by saying, I have zero
tolerance policy for shenanigans in my courtroom. Hella, all right, lookout, everybody,
put your Shenanigans away.

Speaker 4 (21:59):
We're in the courtroom.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
You could tell he's a no nonsense judge. Yeah, he's
like no zero tolerance policy.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
So basically, Brandon Lee Reading has changed his plea from
not guilty to guilty so that he can serve all
of his sentences concurrently.

Speaker 4 (22:16):
And that's a deal he made with Novak.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
So he allocutes to his crime, he says, he says,
he calls the kids horrible names, but he says, I
shot these kids. And then the judge rejects the deal.
The judge is like, I find this so reprehensible that
you would give the sky a deal. He's going to
serve all these counts consecutively, not concurrently, meaning one after another,
which means he's definitely going away for life.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
One of my favorite lines from the judge, he goes,
your parole officer's parents haven't even been born.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
Yeah, that's a line. Crazy, that's a good line. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
So he gets carried out of the court room screaming
rajo wah, like he's you know, he's pissed because he's
not getting his deal. I think I don't know how
common that is. For a judge to.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
You know, reject back to plea deal that the prosecution
has made with a witness. But it seemed like a
pretty big twist for them.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
They were all shocked, well because also I'm imagining a
case like this would have made big news.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, and so like.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Reputation wise, like the community is waiting to see what's happening.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
This is real life, Like this is all over the papers.
But he was gonna get twenty five to life anyway.
I still think he would have been in like jail
for life anyway.

Speaker 4 (23:26):
But I yeah, this is where it all gets tricky. Yeah,
we're not lawyers if you guys did it now.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
So Star is in the car where she pipes up,
like you know, yelling her. She's got this real southern
drawl and she's just like, ye'ar against our freedom of
speech or whatever, and she's screaming about all this stuff.
She gets all these contemptive court charges. They carry her out.
So Brendan Lee Reading is like, uh, talking to Casey again,
and he's like, let's work this out between us whites.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
Okay. He's like, I waive my right to counsel for
this meeting.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Only he basically confesses that aer Ackerman gave her the
rifle and conned him into into being this shoot, into
doing the shooting, and then they were like, what about Star,
what does she have to evolve? And he goes, you
think I'm dumb enough to talk about business in front
of some slash.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's like, well, you got conned into shooting a kid
and you're going to jail forever. So yeah, I think
maybe you'd talk about business in front of a woman
like now. And if you ever hear anyone refer to
a woman as.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Slash, I would, yeah, run from the don't respects.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
So Brennan reveals that Starr is Ackerman's old lady, So
we think maybe there's some kind of uh, you know,
connection between Starr and Brian Ackerman, the racist man. Ackerman
gave Lee the gun and the school photo of the boy,
he says. So they're in court and Starr will not testify,
and because she doesn't testify, Mordoch is like, you can't.

(24:52):
If she's a co conspirator who won't testify, then she
can't corroborate the story that the prosecution is trying to push.
This isn't fair, and the judge is just like, yes,
I'm allowing this witness, I'm allowing this to happen. And uh,
because Novak argues that the website is corroboration and the
Mordoc the lawyer is like the judge is being influenced
by his abhorrence of Ackerman's beliefs, Like you're being influenced

(25:13):
by the fact that you think this man is like
a racist and you don't agree with what he says.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
I kind of feel like Mordoc's like a little bit
right here, like he did kill multiple people. No, I know,
but you have to technically, you have to have the
stories corroborated.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
And if she won't testify, then you're literally just going
off of the word of the fact that he has
a racist website. I'm not trying to do he admitted
to the crime though, no, no, we're talking about Akerman now,
though he didn't admit to anything.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Oh, Ackerman's Ackerman's on trial for building a website.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
For no for like contracting this hit. Okay, yeah, but
like he can't, so no one can. It's literally he said,
he said.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
God, so I watched this episode five hundred times.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yes, I almost think that the that the lawyer has
like a point. It's like, unfortunately in our country, Nazis
have a right to speak like but.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's not even about speed. It's like the man you
know with Manson. Before Manson, they didn't have the laws
to be able to put him away. And it is
like if you're inciting or the violent or like mob
bosses make people do the hits for.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
That sure, but you just can't without her testimony, you
can't even prove that that he.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Just trying to blame him. He could just be trying
to make a deep blah blah blah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
So anyway, but then that reading, the big fat Nazi,
he goes on the stand and Orange Jump Reading goes.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
In the sand and he's like, he's like Ackerman told
me skinheads were sloppy, and that rosmore organized.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
He said, he's got a target.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
I might like he was just distracted because he looked
like the kool Aid man in orange. Right, Well, the
cool a man is red, I said in orange? Oh
is there an orange flavor kool Aid?

Speaker 4 (26:49):
No, he is the one I would get a kool
Aid man tattoo in orange.

Speaker 5 (26:55):
No.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Okay, so I think you just proved my point.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Okay, So he says, this guy gave me his home,
his home address, the home address of this kid, the
school address of this kid, the kid's school picture. And
suddenly this is like where the episode really goes off.
The fucking rails Kyle Ackerman, the kid gets up, screams
race Trader shoots Brandon Lee Reading in the chest, then

(27:21):
shoots the judge. Then there's like a shootout as some
random blonde man shoots at Munch. Then Maloney shoots that guy.
Then Kyle shoots Maloney. I call it Maloney, but it's Stabler.
And then Kyle is standing over Stabler like about to
literally kill him, and he's like everyone has to make sacrifices.

(27:42):
And then Star shoots Kyle and is like, federal agent.
I'm a federal agent. So she reveals herself, unmasks herself
basically as a federal agent.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
And we kept asking this throughout the whole episode, is
why didn't she come forward in interrogation and be like, hey, guys,
I'm undercut.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah, she could have started shooting.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, I don't understand why she was like, look, I'm
not going to testify because I'm undercover.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
Because if you're alone, you're not breaking your cover. I
don't know. I don't know how FBI undercovered. I don't know, unfortunately,
but it was.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Like you could have I maybe she but if she
knew about the shooting, she would have helped. Maybe How
did she get a gun in? Like it's all pretty wild.

Speaker 5 (28:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
So then Munch is in the hospital he got shot
in the ass, which is really funny and very much
Star whose actual name is Dana Lewis, she's in there
apologizing for all the slurs she said. She's like, I
had to maintain my cover. She apologizes to Finn. Finn
shakes her hand and goes, we're good.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
I also like to say that Star Dana Lewis says
that she was in the organization for five months and
it's like, within five months you got that high up.
You're fucking the leader. Yeah, that is amazing police work. Yeah, yeah,
she got real. It's like, if you say enough racial slurs,
you can just shoot. That's how you advance in those
kinds of businesses.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Brings much a fig shake.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, from some deli that I think we're supposed to
that I've never heard. Of course, he wants so much
to want a fig shake. It's so but it's also
kind of sweet. They have like a sweet little relationship
him and Finn. So Stabler tells liv that he's he's
in the hospital. Olivia's visiting him.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
He tells her that Kathy has started divorce proceedings.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
She still wants to know of you got shot? Did
I know she wants to divorce you? But yeah, you
gotta call.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
It's like, you gotta call Kathy, you gotta call the
mother of your four kids when you've been shot. So
then they try to figure out how they got the
guns into the courtroom, and it's this random blonde man
that I mentioned before is like named Christopher Rawlins. He
literally looked like a store mannikin at a surf shop.
He was just like bang bang bang, like it was.
I was wondering what his audition process was even like
uh and he was. He had like snuck in with

(29:50):
a fake badge and I d hands it off guns
to Kyle Ackerman. The judge is dead, a court officer
is dead, another one is hanging on, and Kyle is dead.
So Ryan Ackerman is proud that his son died fighting
for his race. And Dana found some other information about
the shooting while they were.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
Doing a raid.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
They did a big raid. They took Ackerman down. They
found all this like bomb making equipment and busted them.
So Ackerman is going to go to jail, but she
found some interesting information. So then the last scene is
Olivia at the house of the two parents of the
parents of the dead child, confronting them because the Whitlocks

(30:29):
had actually taken out not one, but two insurance policies
on their seven year old worth seven hundred and fifty
thousand when normally they're fifty thousand. And then they kind
of did some digging and found out that Whitlock had
pledged some money to a Nazi organization because they are racists.
He pledged money to the Nazi organization for a future

(30:52):
insurance payment, and Olivia said, people must have been so confused.
Two racists like you adopting a little black boy, and
the mom goes, we're not racists.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
We just needed the money. So they arranged for their son,
and like they're acting the entire time horrible ending.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
But what's interestingly, like this is so twisted, so upsetting
and that. But when Star brings the evidence to Benson,
she's like, you're gonna love this, and it's like, no one,
I'm not this is I'm glad we're going to catch
the killers.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
But to be like guess what baby?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, And I would like to think that the foster
system is doing like a thorough vetting of their people
and not allowing.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
I've never heard of anything like this, Thank god.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
I don't think this part is not based on Yeah,
that part is not based on anything real.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
I think whatever you believe in.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I that is so horrific to think that you would
adopt a child just to kill them and see nothing
for money and seeing nothing, I mean, it's like awful.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah, it's one of those. And what did you need
the money for?

Speaker 1 (31:53):
I needed to know was somebody dying of cancer in
the were hospital bills or was it just that he
wanted to give money to Nazi organizations?

Speaker 4 (31:59):
They never said what they need the money for? Yeah,
not that there's any reason.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
And then like when she walked into the apartment, she's like,
why aren't there any photos of the kid? And they
like this is this happens on forensic files all the time.
The people go claim the insurance immediately, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Like you five days after this kid died, they were like, Chiching,
where's our money. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
But again, what we talk about constantly amazing actors.

Speaker 4 (32:22):
You never have known the whole time. They're like, he's
not even on my cell block. Why would he do?
Is like you the mom the shaky cry.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
And that's why I think the wardrobe did such a
good job with the pink and the innocent.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
And what's crazy too, Yeah, that is that is they
did a good job. Well go, you know, as usual,
props to the sp wardrobe department. But here's the thing.
If he's the one that contracted Brennan lee Reading to
kill his kid, then all the Ackerman stuff, Ackerman really
didn't do anything.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
Ackerman.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
He gave the gun to Fatty and gave him the
photo of the kid.

Speaker 4 (32:56):
Oh so that's right.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
The corrections officer didn't go directly through Brandon Reading. He
went Ackerman went to him.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
So you're right. So he is still like conspiracy to
commit a murder. Yeah, you're right, right, right. I was
gonna say he definitely had bombs ready to go off
and he's a Nazi.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
But this is probably one of the greatest episodes.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, it's like the twist at the end is truly wild,
and I'm glad it has.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah, she's a legend.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
A shootout in a courthouse. This is the only time
Munch gets shot in the series.

Speaker 4 (33:24):
Yeah that's true. Maloney gets shot a couple other times. Okay.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
So luckily that part is not part of the real crime,
the parents having their son killed, but a lot of
the other stuff is, and we're going to hear about
it when we return.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
Hey, y'all, Star is back. Now let's uh leave the
episode behind us and get into the true crime.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
But her acts, you know, it just gives us a
little bit of joy in this horrific crime episode.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah we need that. Okay. So this is based on
a few different crimes.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
We're gonna focus mostly on a murder spree that happened
where I'm from, Skokie, Illinois, while I was living there
as a child. I remember this happening. I remember us
talking about it in school. I remember us staying inside
because they couldn't catch the guy for three days.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
So, like, I remember a lot of this, but I
was so little that it was you were like ten
ural yeah, yeah, like fourth fifth grade?

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, maybe sixth but I doubt it, So it was
really I don't know, intes, I don't know the right
adjective to use.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
But it was like a nice to revisit. I don't
know how to say this, like just.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
A nostalgic murder spree. You know, it takes me back.

Speaker 4 (34:51):
Like I remember feeling it, but I don't remember the
details and stuff. It's yeah, it's kind of like kind
of like watching The Last Dance if you were a
kid during or.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Like when I look at OJ stuff, like only now
am I not realizing how horrible it was? Because when
I was younger, I was just like, oh, that, like
what happened?

Speaker 4 (35:08):
I was so young? You know, absolutely, yeah I agree there,
but I do, so we'll get to that. I'm just
going to touch on.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
There's a courthouse shooting that helped kind of inspire the
courtroom shooting scene. But researching this courthouse, courthouse shootings happen
all the time, really, you know what.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
I went on YouTube, like find the news footage from
this shooting. It was like the Michigan one, the Florida
But like I think, I.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Think courthouse shootings happened way more often than we did it.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
I wonder if it's more people somehow getting a gun
in there, or they grab bailiff's guns or like what happened.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
So this one that we're talking about is Kingston Courthouse
shooting of two thousand and five. It's in Tennessee and
a Department of Corrections transport officer. One was wounded and
one was murdered. There was a female shooter, and a
part of me went, oh, that's that's nice, Like it's
so fucked up. And we saw about female killers before,

(36:05):
but for some reason, this kind of like I remember
being like, get it, girl, which is pretty fucked up,
but it's for a man. It's all a mess. But
this happened in August ninth, two thousand and five, so
close to this.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
Episode, and I think that's why these Oh yeah, I
kind of did.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
But basically, this guy, George Hyatt, he was pleading guilty
in a courthouse to a robbery charge and as he
was taken out by two you know, cops or officers, guards,
I don't know, guys with badges. As he was being
taken out, his wife, Jennifer was there and George yailed

(36:41):
out fire and that's when Jennifer started shooting, and then
they ran away into a car, escaped and then dropped
the car, got into another car.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Stated a couple hotels. They actually they got arrested like
the next day, but they were, you know, able to
maybe hopefully in the hotel room. But they are both
in jail forever.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
So that's yeah, Okay, life wasn't necessarily racially motivated like
this one.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
And now I'm like, okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
No, I think it was just like close to when
this happened, because, like I said, it seems like courthouse
murder or shootings and shit happened kind of way more
often than I ever anticipated. But this was like right
around the time that the episode happened. Not racially motivated.
The matt the George is black and Jennifer is white.
The husband one wife duo. But I think it's just like.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, and then months later this episode aired in November
of the same year.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, but yes, and again, don't commit crimes for men. Yeah,
let your husband go to jail, Yeah, visit him, live
your life. It's just ugh, god, I mean, but she
obviously was a bad person, and it's good.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
That she's a wife. All right.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
So this case, the killer that we're going to be
talking about is Benjamin Nathaniel Smith and the Matthew F.
Hale character is kind of like the.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
Kyle Ackerman where did he commit He's like the leader
of the Nazis, but he didn't actually commit the crimes,
but he inspired.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
So he's kind of more like the Brian Akerman. Kyle
is more like the.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Benjamin wasn't a birth kid.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
I would say Benjamin is a mix I guess of
Kyle and the big racist yahawaha guy.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
So I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Meanwhile, ironic we've talked about this. Benjamin is a very
Jewish name.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
He changed his name later to August, which is too
juius because real child. Yeah, yeah, he said Benjamin was
too Jewy and he didn't like it, so he did
change it.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
To August Smith. So I don't know what.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
I don't even know how to organize this, honestly. I'll
talk about Matthew F.

Speaker 5 (38:51):
Hale.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
So basically he's in East Pirioria, Illinois, And if you've
been to Peoria, it's a mess. I've performed in a
comedy club there and it's a great club. It's a
club I have had great times performing at. To the
left of it's a strip club. Across the street as
a is a dirt motor cross ATV A lot like

(39:11):
this is where we're okay. So basically he is in
jail for forty years, so that's great. He's up for
parole in twenty thirty seven, but he's only going to
be sixty six, which is not old enough for a
Nazi hero.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Leader to be released on parole. So hopefully they don't
release SIMP.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
And I bet like it seems like the skinhead community
in jail is pretty strong.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
It just seems dangerous.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I did get a lot of the crime information from
the Southern Law Poverty.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
Center, and they're on our side. So you're on the
Nazi side.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Maybe you know, go to Fox News information about this,
but I wanted to be transparent where I got it.
He realized he was a Nazi at age eleven, this
Matthew F. Hale guy, and for two decades he worked
out of his childhood bedroom as a.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
Nazi coming of age story.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, and it's also like he created the world Church
of the Creator from his childhood better.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
It was like, this is the Worldwide offices in my
home in Illinois.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
And guess what Matthew's father did for a living a
police officer?

Speaker 4 (40:18):
Oh wow?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, who let his son lead a Nazi group in
his bedroom and never stopped him. So just you know,
you know the recent article that came out that the
FBI has been warning about skinheads and Nazis in the
police departments and how it's intertwined and law enforcement. And
again this is someone whose father was a cop and

(40:40):
let him do Nazi business in their home, and this guy.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
Is rap sheets insane.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Nineteen ninety he was arrested for burning an Israeli flag
outside and so it broke an ordinance. Nineteen ninety one,
he was fined for littering for handing out racist pamphlets.
Ninety one, arrested again for threatening three black men with
the gun too, charged with criminal trespass, resisting arrest, aggravated battery,
and carrying a concealed weapon after he attacked a shopping

(41:07):
mall security guard. Only got six months house arrest and
thirty months of intensive probation. I don't know what intensive
probation means, but didn't fucking help him. Two thousand and three,
he was charged in Chicago with contempt of court for
refusing to stop using the name a World Church of
the Creator after losing a copyright lawsuit brought up by
a non racist church with that name.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
So you didn't need to come up with an original
name for your Nazi church. Yeah, come on, man, do better.
That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
It's like you believe you're the superior race and yet
you're a failure.

Speaker 4 (41:40):
Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
And then two thousand and four is the final conviction
that's put him away for forty years. He was convicted
in two thousand and four of soliciting the murder of
a Chicago federal judge, Judge Lefco, who presided over that
copyright trial, and it made him mad. His personality actually
reminds me of Tiger King. He's a meglomaniac. He thinks
everything's about him, yet fails, and you know, like the

(42:05):
revenge thing where it's like, oh you you said I
couldn't copyright, I'm.

Speaker 4 (42:09):
Gonna fucking murder you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
And this is the thing about these Nazis too, where
it's like, fine, be a Nazi, but find another hobby too, Yeah,
Like they have nothing else going for them and a
life of hate with no Like whenever I play chess
or games with my dad, he always says, focus on
yourself and doing good. You get further ahead when you
focus on other people. Losing. You're so focused on that,

(42:32):
you don't get to win. You get to build up
your game because you're too focused on people losing. So
that's just a nice piece of advice from my father,
if any Nazzis want to hear that.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
So he goes for all of our Nazi listeners, please
listen to Lisa's job. So he goes to Joe for
soliciting the murder of a female judge.

Speaker 5 (42:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, And so I'm going a little back and forth
about it, but I just that's like I'm just telling
you his rap sheet, Like this guy got everywhere he goes.
And the best part about this, like, thank god the
judge was not killed. No one tried to kill the judge,
you know, obviously. So basically what happened was he asked
his security chief to get the judge's home address, but

(43:17):
he didn't know that his security chief was an undercover
FBI agent.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Yeah, and the FBI agent was like, or an FBI informant,
I think informant. You're right, Yeah, you're right. So that's
fucking incredible. And that's also probably where they got a
lot like star. The whole idea for that is like
from this, oh look at you connecting the dots.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Fuck yeah. Yeah, So that's like my favorite thing in
the world. That what a failure. You can't even kill.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
The judge you want to kill, like you go to
the one guy that's the FBI informant to get the judge.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
And so that's what we're talking about with the Ackerman.
Now he gets charged, it's like you.

Speaker 4 (43:53):
Are you are trying to get people killed. You're also
a fucking coward.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
You can't even try to commit the crimes on your
fucking but I just love that he told on himself whatever.
So he's in fucking jail and I love it. And
they also did a little cop trigaru this is that
this is such an SVU game. They January eighth, two
thousand and three, Hale appeared for a court hearing at
the Federal Courthouse in Chicago, where he was expected to

(44:18):
be cited for failing to comply with Leftco's order. So
he went to CORP just thinking he had an appointment
for a trial, and then they were like, haha, never mind,
we're arresting you, you dumb piece of shit.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
We're trying to kill this judge. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Oh, so that's something that Maloney for sure would do.
And yeah, he's a piece of shit and that's it.
And hopefully he doesn't get parolled and hopefully he's having
a really.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
Hard, terrible time in prison.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Now I will, you know, connect him to this murder spray.
So this Benjamin Nathaniel Smith went by August.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
I don't know what to call him, scum of the earth.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
I think let's keep calling him Benjamin because if he
were alive, it would bother him.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Basically what prompted his murder spree is because Matthew Hale
passed the bar and he got a law degree from
Southern Illinois University, which is widely known as the biggest
party school in Illinois. Like that's where you go when
you don't break a three point zero, Okay, you know
what I mean. So the fact that I know great

(45:23):
people and rich people that have gone there, I applied there.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
I did not do well in school. So but it
is a party school, so it's just funny.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
He got his degree from there, but he the board
of Illinois Law Bar whatever did not allow him to
practice because he's a racist.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
So they were like.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, you can't be an open Nazi practicing law.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
And because of that.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
That's what sparked Benji and made him so angry that
he went on this fucking spree. Wow, and he was
gonna commit Like there was no way this person was
not going to murder.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
And not commit crimes. He was basically like a tinderbox
ready for the match.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
It's just hard to read this stuff and do this
research thinking about like all these people that have third
strikes or weed or like you know, teens that are
poor that are robbing cars and get stuck in the
system and spend so matny years in prison, and then
we have open nazis committing crimes for getting.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
Your obation getting out in like a couple months.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
And actually, to go back to Matthew Hale, the FBI
and all these people, there were statements of like, yeah,
put you go to jail for a long time. We
are going to catch you before you pull the trigger.
We're here to protect. And it's like unless it's not
a judge, all of a sudden, like if it's a
judge or an employee, there's all these years and we
take all these threats seriously.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
But if it's just a.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Woman being abused, right, they don't you know. Famously, the
courts do not uphold restraining orders or issue them in time.
I have friends who have been fucked in the system
in this way and been stalked and harassed and bricks
thrown through their windows and cops have done nothing. So
reading all this is just like so fucked up. They

(47:01):
have such long rap sheets, so many clues, and we're able.

Speaker 4 (47:05):
To he murdered.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Yeah, he murdered two people and injured nine people over
three days.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
This is Benjamin. Yes, is Benjamin.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Both of them are just fucking nuts. So he was
a criminal justice major. That it's a tip off. If
you're in college for criminal justice, you might be good.
But if you were go to be sociology. The social workers,
the defense attorneys they go sociology. The probation officers they
go criminal justice.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
Those are the cops. It's not a fucking real major.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
So we go all the way back to he grew
up in will Met, dad's a doctor, mom's in real.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Estate, went time in will Met. It's literally where the
home alone houses.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
I think, yeah, it's so I'm in Skokie. We're neighboring.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Like Skochee is kind of the connection between the north
Shore suburbs and the city. I would say in Chicago.
It's by Northwestern University. It's a it has it had
the highest population of not of Holocaust survivors anywhere in
the world outside of Israel, and so when I was
a kid, the KKK would march and we'd have to
talk about it in school.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
The Nazis march before I lived was born.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
But outside of being really Jewish, I went to school
with lots of Pacific Islanders, Indian people, Sri Lanka, just Assyrians.
It was a really diverse school. So it makes sense
why people that hate minorities would come to Skokie. Well
met is known as like the rich arian type of

(48:30):
school that we swam against them.

Speaker 4 (48:33):
They have an incredible swim team.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
But there are stories of New Trier kids going and
doing swastikas on wow.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
Cemeteries and Nutrier famously like the number one public high
school in America, like constantly in the top of like
one of the best high schools. And obviously, but it's
just I know a lot of kids from there, and
it's just so rich. Yeah, a lot of drugs and
a lot of racism. So that's that.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
I'm sure there's good things. Hopefully they've grown as a community.
I don't know what to say to you, so, you know.
So there was no indication from the family. The neighbors
are like, we had no fucking idea. But his high
school senior quote was John Wilkes Booth quote after he
killed Abraham Lincoln some Latin.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Yeah, he said sixth for tiranas. That's insane.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah, So that another clue that this kid's not going
to be good. So he went to u of I
and this is where his Nazism started. And this is
what's so crazy. The University of Indiana, no University of Illinois,
Urbana Champagne for engineering.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
They have a basketball team.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
I lost my virginity there famously, Okay, And he lived
in Allen Hall, which is what caused him to start
hating everyone. I stayed at Alan Hall when I lost
my virginity. All my friends were in Allen Hall. It's
the artsy dorm. Like it's artsy, didn't have air conditioning
when I stayed at This is like earlier nineties. Obviously
they made it seem like it was some swanky dorm.

(49:58):
Going to college is just expensive, But it's really like
the hippie, dippy, gay queer artsy fartsy.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
This guy was like, uh, he hated it. He hated it.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
He didn't like foreign students, he didn't like the foreign
professors and made him uncomfortable. And that's where he met
Matthew Hale of East Peoria, who was recruiting on campus
for his World Church of the Greek that was an
anti Black, anti Christian, which seems weird, an anti Jewish organization.
So October ninety seven he got accused of beating his
girlfriend in his dorm, smoking weed and fighting with others.

(50:29):
You know, there's one of these that I'm okay with
this smoking weed, It is fine, but he can't beat
your girlfriend in And this again is like another thing
that's any ignored with mass shootings and you know violent
people that end up murdering is they have violence towards women.
Kyle Rittenhouse who was arrested in Kenosha for murdering two
people that churches are raising money for, but he had

(50:54):
videos of him beating women. Like, violence against women is
a regil and it's a red flag to to bigger crimes.
Not that sorry, I don't mean to say that beating
a woman is a horrible crime, but it is a
red flag to murder and other things down the road
like escalations escalator.

Speaker 4 (51:11):
Yeah, so the fact that we ignore it.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
So he beat his fucking girlfriend and in a New
York Times article around you know, after the attacks in
the nineties the end of the nineties, Elizabeth Anstar in
a phone interview with The New York Times, she said,
people really need to pay more attention to domestic violence
and racism.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
And it's like, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Why are you a college student understanding this and a
whole fucking country can't.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
It's whatever. She was ahead of her time.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
So he got probation, he got ethics classes, he needed
to go to counseling, but there.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Is a fixed class. I took ethics in college, and
I went three times. I got like a C. I
just don't the ethics class. That's like you study Greek philosophers.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
I know college is because one time I was drunk
and I stood on a chair and smoked a cigarette
into the smoke detector and they caught me, and they
didn't want to actually punish me, so I like just
wrote about anti smoking and like made posters okay, and.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
Had to clean up the butts from the smoking area.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Like they don't actually, you know, they want they don't
want to kick kids out.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
Yeah, whatever, I didn't. I'm not proud of my moments.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
He started passing out racist hit screaming about free speech.
He was peeking into dorm windows, he had weapons. He
filed a complaint that he was being mistreated by the
dorm administration. And then the school consulted with the parents,
and the parents seem rich, successful, smart, and they like
took him out of school and they're like, my bad.
They signed a thing saying he'll never return.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
So summer of ninety eight, he enrolls at the University
of Indiana. He switched from computer science to criminal justice,
and again he was passing out racist that's shit. He
wanted to start a white student union. He was mad
at the black student union.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
Just you know.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
He was doing interviews all the time and writing articles.
But the thing that's crazy is like the mayor of Bloomington,
John fernand Is, met with him twice and like in
a call in show, and he goes all indications were
that he didn't have any history of violence, and it's like,
but he did, and you're the mayor, and like this
happens a lot where like women are like that guy's creepy,

(53:13):
and guys are like, oh, he's nice what I'm talking
about And it's like men should just never get to
decide who might be violent or not, Like your intuition
is just fucked and you don't listen.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
Whatever.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
So he did interviews for the paper. He wrote things
like they gave him attention. And I always think about
this because a lot of comedians will have at like
Alex Jones and all these Nazis and crazy people on
their podcasts, and they think that it's freedom of speech. Sure,
that it's fair, and we need to hear everything you
are spewing Nazi shit. There's no two side. There's not

(53:44):
depth to these people. These aren't opinions. They do not
think that black people, Jewish people, Asian should be alive.
So I just hate people that magnify his voice. And
so he was like writing things for the paper and
on radio and it's just like.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
We know what.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Nazis have to say, Like I'm just so disgusted by
people that like help spread the news whatever, and he
he legit was like I'm willing to debate any of
these issues at any time. And Nazis love to do that,
and it's yeah, it's not a debate whether black people
should live.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
It's just like iul, no one wants to debate you.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
And like I said, so you could see he's had
a long racistass history. And Hale claimed that they were
actually like separating and not close anymore because Hale's about
nonviolence and Benjamin is so about violence, and that's not true.
The police found like thirteen hours of phone conversations between
them for like months leading up to it. They talked

(54:44):
before he went on a crazy rampage. They were tight,
you know what I mean. And I don't know if
this adds to it or what, but it happened July
fourth weekend. Huh so is July fourth, eighteen ninety nine.
And I'd had to do with Matthew Hale not getting
his law license. But something about it happening over July

(55:07):
fourth weekend.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
What the word is. Again, we will learn through. Yeahs
have really bad vocabulary. And Kara mentioned this and I'm
just gonna say this right away, so we're not wondering.
But he shot himself at the end three times.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
And that's crazy too. You like these Nazis are so
bad they don't even know how to kill themselves. So
he went on a spree just shooting out his car
window people.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
So, yeah, I will go through that, but I just
wanted to say this fucker is dead.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
Yeah, sorry to get grim.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
But basically he started in West Rogers Park and that's
maybe fifteen minutes away from will Met He.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
Knows this area.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
It was a Friday night shabus all the religious It's
a very Orthodox area, and so all the Jews are
running around going to services, and so he shot at
six Orthodox men on their way to services. He then
drove to Skokie, where he fired seven shots at Ricky Song.
And he was forty three years old. He was the

(56:04):
former head basketball coach at Northwestern University. He had an
amazing career coaching. He was an amazing person. And he
was shot in front of his two children. He was
like out for a job. His kids were like playing
outside with him, growing up in Skokie, Like this is
it's it's an It's just like a quintessential suburban looking neighborhood.

(56:27):
And I just can't fucking imagine this. So he killed
Ricky Bird's Song, and I think that's what gave this.
I mean, I think the story would have been media
circus anyways, but I think having someone that prominent in
the community. He then drove to Northbrook and he shot
at an Asian couple. They were not injured. He then
Saturday morning, I just can't this is what I don't understand.

(56:48):
How he kept being able to drive. Yeah, I don't
understand it. They will stop like any black person that
kind of looks like the person, and they had his car.
He drove a four tourists, a powder blue Ford Tourists,
which to me is that's a criminal justice a Ford Tourists.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
Are you fucking kidding me?

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yeah, that is not a car for a sane person,
and powder blue is not an appropriate color. So Saturday
morning he drove to Springfield, Illinois. He injured a black man.
He then drove to Decatur in the afternoon he wounded
a black minister. He then drove to Urbana, Champagne. He
shot at a group of six Asian UFI students in
during one of them. Then Sunday was able to drive

(57:27):
to Bloomington, Indiana, where he went to school as well,
and he fired a group leaving a Korean church and
killed Wan Jan Yun who was shot twice in the back.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
He was a doctoral student.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
I'm twenty six years old studying economics and was just
arriving to you know, this was the summer before he
started this program. And then he continued driving around and
the cops this, I mean, I'm gonna lose my mind again,
so be ready for this. But there was a high

(58:02):
speed chase to apprehend him. It was a small town
in Illinois. To sheriff deputies were involved in apprehending him.
Garden and Hibbital I don't know, hit a bat, all,
hit a bit all, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
I can't see it.

Speaker 5 (58:13):
Sorry.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
All our sources are always.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
On our site. You know, this is like Washington Post stuff.
But they drove in different squad cars. They clocked him
and driving a stolen van. They followed him for five miles.
The van swerved off the road and slammed into a
metal pipe. With their guns drawn, the officers said they
approached the van shouting for Smith to show his hands.
He did not comply. The cops enter the van through

(58:37):
the passenger's door. Smith reached for a duffel bag on
the floor by a passenger seat of the vehicle.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
Hippotol does not shoot him.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
Yeah, this is what it's so hard to read this
thinking about all the ways black people are shot for
and murdered for, you fucking reason. We have a man
crossing state lines in a small multiple murders and the
cops are wrestling him to the ground as he's reaching
for a duffel bag when you know he's armed in
dangerous It's like, you know, we're supposed to think these

(59:07):
cops are heroes, and I truly it's so hard to
do that. It should be thinking about everything. But so
they wrestled him and then they heard shot, and he
ended up shooting himself.

Speaker 4 (59:18):
There was they grapple. There were two muffled shots.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Like this motherfucker was willing to die for this white
supremacist murderer.

Speaker 5 (59:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
The cops said when they first saw Smith that his
neck was already covered in blood and they found tight
all the weapons of all the types that were used
in the shootings in his car. Sounds pretty It makes
me even more upset. They took him to the hospital
and tried to revive him for forty minutes.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
I read that he shot himself in the head a
couple times and then once in the heart.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
No, it was one in the thigh, one in the
chest was the final one.

Speaker 4 (59:53):
Yeah, and one in the chin.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Oh okay, the chin must have been the one that
he was trying to go for his head or something.

Speaker 4 (59:59):
Yeah, that's what I mean. These people can't you can't
even get to that, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
The fact that they revived this man for forty minutes,
and just it's hard not to think about Breonna Taylor
or George Floyd laying there, being able to live and
given absolutely no mercy or care for their lives. And
yet this fucking Nazi murder was taken to a hospital
and for forty minutes they tried to revive him. And

(01:00:27):
what made me even more angry is like the Marion
County Sheriff Gerald something Benjamin said, the cops didn't fire
their weapons, and that is how you do it by
the book, and he's proud of his cops, and that's
how cops are supposed to be. And if that's what
by the book means, then why aren't we mad at
all these officers that aren't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
By the book and aren't shooting so much? And the
problem is is that the book encompasses everything. The book
is shoot. The book is don't shoot, you know, like
the book, the book covers them for when they do anything.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Yeah, and I just thought I was like, I'd love
to see how many of these cops were in the
Creator's Hate World group in Peoria.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
You know, honestly, how many of you worship at the
Church of the Creator.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
Out of a child? Out of a room with a
fucking race car bed in it. We're going to end
on a positive note, ye.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
I wanted to also mention that that Matthew Hale man
in twenty nineteen was the twenty year anniversary, and so
there was a lot of media and interviews.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
And kind of revisiting this case.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
And Matthew Hale goes, there's only one victim, and it's
the white one. No, no remorse, no sympathy, no understanding,
no care. He goes, these people are animals, they're dogs,
and they deserved to die, like truly.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
You know, the only victim he thinks is Benjamin correct. Wow? Correct? Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
I mean, and that's what's happening with Kyle Rittenhouse now,
you know, it's just like just lauding these people.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
And wait, so I just want to be clear that's
the high note.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
No I just I guess I just wanted to say that, like,
you know, this guy has now been in jail, Matthew
Hale for a while, and there's no reading it. There's
no American History X lessons here, you know, like that,
he's not growing or in any fucking way. So we're
gonna end on a high note. Well, this is actually
a weird note. First, but Wan John June Janet Reno

(01:02:07):
attended his memorial service, and I don't know if that's good,
but I just haven't seen that name for a while.
And the only image I have of her is with
Elian Gonzalez and like that too.

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
Only image I have of her is like Will Ferrell
playing her. Yeah, but I just thought that was pretty weird.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
But because of Ricky Bird's song, basically what his wife
said was people in the neighborhood days after Ricky's murder
were meeting at the spot of his murdering and just
like reminiscing and discussing, and it turned into neighborhood walks
and like everyone in the neighborhood started walking together and healing,
and so they decided to start a race against Tate

(01:02:46):
this and it's still going strong. It happens every year
on Father's Day weekend, around five thousand runners every.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Year, and I think, yeah, I think we should do it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
But I always see signs every year about the race
and the YWCA and Evanston, where Tina Fey worked.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
When she went to Second City.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
They are the sponsors now and kind of organize this
and they raise money for prevention and anti racist education.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
And so that's just like really lovely that this line.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
If you live in the Chicago area, get involved in
the race against Hay and then we will make a
trip out there at some point and do it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
Yeah, So just very excited about that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
And his daughter, Kelly, is a teacher, and she said
something that I really liked. It's not full about this case,
but she said that while she's teaching, she likes to
strive to create a trauma sensitive learning environment. And I
just think that's so important, especially now with kids doing
virtual learning and the stress of the world and just

(01:03:48):
realizing that kids are going through shit constantly. That it's
so beautiful to have someone that wants to make a
nice environment. And she just said he's known for having
a smile on his face. He would do free basketball
camps he was just like so good. And she says
she has no hate towards the killer because the God
protected her heart. And I don't fully understand that, but

(01:04:10):
I love that. And I wanted to say that there's
a scholarship in Wan John Youn's name in Bloomington at
the University of Indiana, and it goes to a student
that exhibits tolerance, understanding, and commitment to service. So that's
a scholarship that still exists.

Speaker 4 (01:04:26):
And we'll put we'll put links to both of those
in our I just want to end in the high note.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
I'm sorry it took me whipsy turvy all the way around,
but I just wanted to kind of give some time
to the victims and not just the Nazis.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Yes, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
All right, guys, We're going to just take a quick
break and when we come back, we're going to have
another one of our hard hitting interviews.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
Okay, Lisa, our dream come true. I mean, this is insane.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Our interview today is with a Tony winning Oscar winning
Halfway to an egot actress who has been in such
classic films as Mona, Lisa Smile, Pollock, First Wives Club, Iconic,
and is currently starring in the Morning show on Apple

(01:05:23):
TV and plays just an iconic recurring character on SVU
Dana Lewis. Everybody please tune in to our interview with
Marcia gay Harden.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
We're also thrilled.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
We can't believe that we have an Oscar winner on
the podcast and that you were nominated for an Emmy
for this part in Raw.

Speaker 5 (01:05:50):
I love.

Speaker 4 (01:05:52):
Star Dania Lewis and your Lewis iconic arc.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
And we're assuming this was an offer only. You are
not audition at Chelsea Pears.

Speaker 5 (01:06:01):
You know the fact of Chelsea Peers alone. You know,
for the audition you got to do a trampoline jump,
then you got to swing across the room. I was
an offer only, but what was undecided about it was
the was the who she was. So it wasn't in
the script that she would be from the South. And

(01:06:21):
I think, and I literally thought about this. I said,
you cannot begin the podcast on this note because they're
funny and they won't be able to make any jokes
on this. But at the beginning of the of that time,
during that time, I had just read about that a guy,
a black man, who had been chained the back of
a car in the South and drug and I was like, well,
she is doing this infiltration with this KKK, which I

(01:06:45):
had kind of wish it was more top levels of
government that she was infiltrating, but whatever, and uh, And
I thought, why would she why would she choose this
really dangerous job, and why would this be the thing
that she's doing if she didn't have some history, some hurt,
some knowledge something. And I thought, way she could play

(01:07:07):
South to be in this group, that may her more believable.
Or what if she really is from the South, what
if she really has seen these injustices all her life?
And it just didn't sit with her because this is
Raw was the first one. I went on to do
three more, but Raw was the first one, so like
established who she was. And I thought, you know what,
I don't want her to be such a good actress.
I want her to be like, she's a good actor,

(01:07:30):
but that is not just acting that it really is
a part of her. So that's what I did. And
then I had this friend who a woman who was
in the FBI, and so she would talk to me
a lot about about sort of what it was like
and being an investigations and that, and I would say, well,
if you had an accent, you would stand out, like
you'd be more easy to be identified. And she said, well,

(01:07:53):
maybe she's able to get rid of her accent when
she wants to, but she just talks. It is her
accent and she's using it for this. So that's kind
of how that came to be. And you know what's
so cool. They never said no, They never said no,
that's not gonna work. You know, we might think about
it for another time. They just were like, Okay, that
makes sense. You've given her a background in history, so

(01:08:14):
let's go.

Speaker 4 (01:08:15):
No, it's an iconic accent.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
I love saying star Like I am bad at accents,
but it's it's like the best.

Speaker 5 (01:08:22):
I actually think that was pretty good. Could you say
it again? Please? No?

Speaker 4 (01:08:26):
I love I love it. Dan Lewis, Well, we were wondering,
is there a difference on how you played her knowing
that she was undercover in the FBI, as if you
had played her if she was just like a neo Nazi.

Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
Oh that's a really No one in the whole world
and my entire life has ever asked you that question.
That's such a good question. And I don't know because
I didn't never thought about it. I didn't do that,
would you like, I'd have to go back and look
at it, and you know, I've only seen it the
one time when I aired. I don't have to go
back and look at it and say, did I throw
in a little look to somebody? Did I do something

(01:09:07):
that would be like a little quiet giveaway Benton and
I or a Maloney and I hold a look longer?
And I literally I don't know what I did. Love
was the was her that final reveal? You know? And yeah,
hands up? And I was living up in Harlem at
the time, and some of the guys I used to
go to the gym and hang out, you know, work

(01:09:27):
out with at the gym, or watch them work out.
Really I can't. They'd be like, girl, you better come
out with that gun to be in because you know,
we we we know you when we think of you
as like, you know, a good one. And I thought
that's interesting too, because if you play someone who is
that hideous, you know, who really is that hideous, you

(01:09:50):
kind of have to know that people identify you with
that thing. And I think about all these great heinous
roles that people do get identify fight with and it was.
You know, it just makes you think.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
So can I ask, like speaking of like heinous and
all these like horrible like slurs you had to say
to like iced tea, to Richard Bells and stuff like.

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
What was it? I mean those were all scripted. You
weren't going off script for any of those, right, You
weren't just like improvising.

Speaker 5 (01:10:18):
And no, the the off script was the smell smelling.

Speaker 4 (01:10:22):
Him I was going to ask, I was going to
have that was amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Amazing, So so what like is tell us like when
when they yelled cut after you've just said all this
horrible stuff to to these two guys, like are you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
Laughing or you? Is the tension cut? Like?

Speaker 5 (01:10:43):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:10:43):
That's I mean for us, I was like, I can't
believe we even that some of these things are even
being like allowed to say on network television.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
But at the time it was probably pretty risky. And
I think that the smell and what is the line
right after a jew or something?

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
Yeah, you just you just sniff him and say jew
And we're both Jewish, so were we right? We can
say to you're.

Speaker 5 (01:11:04):
Not you're not? So do you have to say Jewish?
Not jew?

Speaker 6 (01:11:07):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
Of course. But you know, the whole thing with language
is so interesting because I've got kids and they teach
me this about language all the time, and and I
and it's I think language is beautiful, so like, I
really love words. And they'll tell me all the time, like,
you can't say this, you can't say this, you can't
say this, you can't say this. And sometimes there's some

(01:11:28):
perfectly innocent in a way, like where I grew up,
and I will say this on the air and I'm
apologized for anywhere. But when I grew up, I was
called by my best gay friends dagheag, come on girl,
And now I can't say that. And of course my
son is gay, so he's like, super, you cannot say that. Mom.
I'm like, I didn't want to say that to you anyway,
but but I just like looking at the word you go.

(01:11:52):
Words change, people change, and sometimes my kids will go, oh,
this person can say this because they have agency, Like
if you're Jewish, I have agency to say something, or
you know, if you're of a certain ration, might have
agency to say certain words that you don't if you're not.
And that's the education I'm learning from the young ones now,
like the whares and the whys of it, and the
histories of it, how far the histories go back that

(01:12:13):
one the sniff and the Jew had no need for
history for me, because we all know that history, and
we all know that hurt and that pain, and you're
living in New York City and I was like, you know,
not a girl Friday. I don't know what they call
the Kelly girl. Kelly girl. So I would go to
work for different people of the time. And I remember
once I had to work for somebody as a nurse's

(01:12:36):
assistant because I'd once been a nurse's assistant in a
hospital when I was really young. I'd volunteer work, so
I had to work. And I remember seeing on this
person's arm numbers tattoo numbers. I had never seen such
a thing. I mean, I I just never seen anything.
So right away when you come to New York, you're
ingrained with this, like there's a history there. So for

(01:12:58):
me that was hard to say. When the cut was done,
I think we just like kind of laughed and hugged,
like whoo, Where'd that come from? I mean, I would
always be like hogary, okay, And I know that some
people like I don't think Daniel Da Lewis would have
said sorry, right, you'd been like, I'm in Carton even
though I love him so much, but I can't. I

(01:13:20):
have to break the thing to acknowledge the humanity across
from me because it Yeah, you can play it, but
it ain't real live you're playing.

Speaker 4 (01:13:28):
Let me ask you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
So, when they brought you into play Dana Lewis, did
you know that there was going to be multiple episodes
or was that just like a one off that they
just turned into a bigger arc because your character was
so interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
It's cool, there's a one off you don't know And
it was, and then they ended up writing four but
each one I didn't know beyond that that there was
going to be another one, and the last one I
could have strangled them. And I want you to get
Dick Wolf on the phone right now, because you know
Dana needs to get out of jail. I know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
I was like, I was like, I could see there
being a thing where Ben's and goes to consult you
while you're in jail because they need your with like
a case, or.

Speaker 5 (01:14:04):
It turns out she's undercover in jail. But they were
really clear about that one, because you know, I'm surprised
you have you studied that real case because it was
really was. There was really a San Francisco cop who
had come up through the ranks. I'm pretty sure at
San Francisco has been a long time since I shot
up at San Francisco. She had come up through the ranks.

(01:14:25):
She was lauded, she was honored, she was loved, and
it turned out with DNA testing, they were able to
link her to a crime that had occurred like twenty
or thirty years before.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Everyone was like, your name is Waydephanie Lazarus.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
Yeah, I think we have it on our list to.

Speaker 5 (01:14:43):
See what that last name as well? Interesting, But I said, no,
that's not Dana. That is not Dana. Dana is strong,
she is honest. If she's anything, she's honest.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
She's just so moral. I think that's why her immense
and are so like linked.

Speaker 5 (01:15:02):
That's what I thought, and you know it was here.
It was hard because I was I said no first,
I said, she it can't be. I don't think I
want to do that because I love Dana and Dana
can't be that person. And they were like, it's based
on a real person. Could you see your way into it,
take it or leave it sort of, and you kind
of go. First of all, I love Marishka so much,

(01:15:22):
and I love you Chris, and all, I love the
show and it was based on a real person, and
I did do it, but there's a part and they
had written it for me, but there is still a
part of me, honestly that goes. I don't I sat
to wrap my mind around that that was her, I
really do.

Speaker 4 (01:15:39):
I don't think we've seen the end of Dane alone.

Speaker 5 (01:15:41):
I hope not.

Speaker 4 (01:15:42):
I can't imagine that she's gone forever.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
And one of the things I love about SVU is
it's such intense subject matter, but they do have a
sense of humor. And I loved that Maloney kept getting
injured anytime you were on Always show, and I loved
that so much.

Speaker 4 (01:15:59):
I thought it was so great.

Speaker 5 (01:16:01):
I think they always try to cut those seas with humor,
and I think that makes it palatable because because there's
a little teeny tongue in cheekness.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
Another of my favorite parts of your run was in
the third episode where Dana Lewis gets assaulted You on
the witness stand. Was like such an incredible performance. I
don't think I have a question. It was just really powerful.

Speaker 5 (01:16:26):
That's an interesting scene because she's a soldier. I remember
we had the discussion with the director because it was
sort of written that at the end she would break
down and sob and have all that emotion. And I
was like, m no, I don't want to do that,
not because I don't want to break down and sab,

(01:16:47):
but because I don't see it as her and it wasn't.
I says a cavalier as if to dismiss the director.
I don't mean it that way. What I mean, it's
just coming from me. I was like, let's talk. I
don't I don't love that, and they presented, you know,
their side, and I said, how about we shoot it
both ways? Can you please just let me do one
where she's a soldier, because I've seen these women in
the military who will talk about rape, and they will

(01:17:07):
talk about it's something that happened, it is in the
line of duty, and it was traumatic, but in their
recounting of it, it's not a day later, it's not
a minute later, it's much later. And in their recounting
of it now they're slightly removedroment and I totally got
the drama of being in the moment and as an

(01:17:28):
actor that like the whole point is being the moment,
in the moment, discover in the moment. But the director
said was really lovely. They said, she did get ripped
and she's a soldier, but she's still a woman. So
even when you do it, and it is an incredible violation,
even when you do it on your version where you
hold on to it, can you let that vulnerability at

(01:17:49):
one point come through? And I think they chose and
I haven't seen it in a long time, but I'm
fairly sure they chose.

Speaker 4 (01:17:57):
That one. So like, so you've done four episodes, you
set your you love Marishka, you love Chris, you love
Ice see every are there any like? Do you have
any like memories from the set of when you were there?

Speaker 5 (01:18:09):
Any like?

Speaker 4 (01:18:09):
Fun little stories?

Speaker 5 (01:18:10):
Mostly I remember just how the set changed as Marishka
became a mother. Wow, the dressing room, the hair and
makeup room, her focus, her her richness just got more expansive.
And then you know there was initially like her dressing
room and Riska Hey is like one of the guys,

(01:18:32):
you know, I cank guess what you love about her?
And levels of the Hey March, how you doing. All right,
let's go, let's get to show on the road. You know,
she's very she can take command of a set, but
but she doesn't feel over like overpawing in a bad way.
When she does it. She's in command. And then the
kids would come in and Marishka would finish, gotta go breastfeed,
you know, I'm leaking, and she would well, that was

(01:18:54):
her first one, and then she adopted the other ones
and she would go just back to be with them
all the time. There'd be nan and people, and I
just thought that was so it was just kind of wonderful.
I remember once they were shooting up in Harlem and
I was living up there, and so they came and
knocked on the door, Hey, March, how you doing? And
I got to come over to the trailers and see
what everyone was doing. It was fun, and I also

(01:19:17):
remember it being a really welcoming environment. You can be
a guest star on some shows and literally it feels
like they are saying, okay, stand here, say your line here,
and move over here, and if you offered an opinion,
you might seem like you were grandstanding somehow. That doing
your job is being an actor and asking questions and

(01:19:39):
you've come into something that's actually a well oiled machine.
And so there's a real level that you have to
pick up on about how much questions can you ask
and how much of your input does anybody really want?
But I felt like on that one that it was
a really open environment and I never and I felt
like I could ask anything I wanted and maybe as

(01:19:59):
a reson all that you you feel like, oh, I
don't even need to I just want to jump into
this well oiled machine. And that's what it felt like.
But they were super, super generous.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
I heard through the grape vine that you're a drag
Race fan? Is that true?

Speaker 5 (01:20:12):
Hello? And do you vote for it? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
And I wrote for drag.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
Race as a new mom, so I was literally doing
the same thing, like pumping in Carson Krestle, I mean
pumping in Ross Matthew's dressing room, like on his days off,
and like doing the whole thing that you're talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):
So it's just reminding me. I love that summer as
a new mom working at drag Race.

Speaker 5 (01:20:32):
Come on, how did you book that gig? That's amazing?

Speaker 4 (01:20:35):
It was, it was, it was cool.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
I literally got the email about it when I was
in the hospital having just given birth, so it was
like a very uh seria.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
Day every day.

Speaker 5 (01:20:46):
Paul's amazing. And my son introduced me to Rue, who
was always watching RuPaul's Drag Race, and he introduced me
to him, I mean on television, and then all he's
watched every season, every this, every that. I've not watched
all of it, but I watched enough to get no
cut and some of the other people yes. And then
we got to go. You know, we was doing a
talk show for a while, and Hudson and I got

(01:21:08):
to go on the talk show, which was super oh
grin yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:12):
You should be a judge. You would be you would
be iconic show such.

Speaker 5 (01:21:16):
I would love to be a judge. I said that
last year, and then I think COVID happened, So yeah,
isn't that going to be like a new phrase. I
was doing this and then COVID happened.

Speaker 4 (01:21:26):
And then COVID happened. If you had to lip sync
for your life, what song do you think you would
crush it?

Speaker 5 (01:21:33):
Probably mister big Stuff? Do you even know that song?

Speaker 4 (01:21:35):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:21:36):
Yeah, yeah, missed a big Stuff Going to get my love?
I love They have all the like the background and everything. Yeah,
that would be mine.

Speaker 4 (01:21:45):
This has been amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:46):
You shared so much and we also wanted to tell you,
like when COVID first happened, us and our girlfriends, we
all watched First Wives Club on zoom and it was
like one of our it.

Speaker 4 (01:21:57):
Was helping us get through COVID moment. Can I tell
you totally, Sa smiles one of my favorite movies.

Speaker 5 (01:22:03):
It's like First Wife Pub was so funny because again
I hadn't seen it in a long long time. And
my son we all went to see Christmas Queens in
Los Angeles a couple of years ago, and so Katya
was his He loved Katya and so she wasn't in
the show. So we get there and we're we watched
the show, We watched the show, we get to go

(01:22:25):
backstage and meet everybody. Kottie's not there, God, he's not there,
and we are leaving. I've gone around the corner to
get the car and I brought it up in my
parking front while there's it was cold, I think, so
they were hanging out waiting for me to bring the car,
and Hudson, well gotcha just walked by. I'm like, what

(01:22:46):
Katya had come by. Maybe they called her to say,
you know, we wanted to meet her. I don't know,
not projecting. She walked by, and she walked down through
the big lobby heading, you know, pass her guards to
go backstage. I was like, do you want me to
get her? Oh no, mom, no you okay, Yeah, I'm
going to get her. And I leave the car running
with the keys in it, right in front of the

(01:23:08):
Ace Hotel wherever they have this we've seen Christmas queens.
And I run down the lobby. I'm like, cutcha, cutcha,
and she's gone, and the security guards like, what it's gotcha?
I have to see her. She's I need to see her.
And I kind of bust through and he said, cut ch'all,
cut ch'au hi, and she turns around and she looks
at me. She goes, oh, grow from love, which is

(01:23:33):
of course the line and first wife's hug. Oh my god,
that is a minute to remember it. And she came
walking back. She goes, what is growth love? Something from love?
A couple of them, Yeah, that's like the thing that
she's telling them. She's having the affair with g love growth.
And so she comes back to go growth love, growth, love,
and comes up to me and we hug, and I

(01:23:54):
looked over my shoulder at my son's face.

Speaker 6 (01:23:56):
It was like my mother's like goddess, Oh my god,
my mother trying hard on the smoke, fake cigarette.

Speaker 5 (01:24:06):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
A true, a true parenting win. Marsha, thank you so
much for taking the time to talk with us today.

Speaker 5 (01:24:14):
It's nice to talk to you all.

Speaker 4 (01:24:20):
It was pretty magical. Wow. What a dream.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
I mean, a dream guest like this is a woman
who has like a extensive IMDb but also seems to remember.

Speaker 4 (01:24:29):
Like every moment of every role she's done, which I love.
I mean, maybe she maybe forgot a little bit of
her iconic First Wives Club line, but you know, she
like her all her svus. She seems to remember like
pretty accurately.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
Yeah, and just I don't like so thoughtful in every
decision and line and moment And just yeah, what did
I learn that I'm not as good of an actress
as I thought. I mean, she's so good outside of
the inner view. Another post mortem tidbit is, please don't

(01:25:04):
be a racist and don't go on a murder spree.
I think that's something we should all.

Speaker 1 (01:25:08):
Focus on right right, and like, don't adopt a child
for insurance money, but that sounds also like don't be
the devil, Like, don't be the worst person in the world, Like,
I mean, that was wild.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
Also, don't ever believe children's accounts of what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:25:29):
I mean, is that fair?

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
Like I think we should trust get Like, yeah, we
gotta trust and believe victims. But also it seems like
kids are out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
I want to say that a personal note post mortem
for this episode is like aim high, because like, first,
when Lisa and I were making a list of who
we were going to try to get for this episode,
Lisa was suggesting the Jewish child who was shot on
the playground, and we ended up getting Marsha gay Harden.

Speaker 4 (01:25:52):
So I feel like you got to just aim higher.

Speaker 5 (01:25:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
Yeah, I was rewatching the raw again and it was funny.
I'm like, we were gonna get the marath boy. I
can't believe we got Marshall gamehearten. I guess another lesson
is no John Milheiser is that is that?

Speaker 5 (01:26:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
Everybody follow John Milheiser online. He's so funny. He does
hilarious characters all the time. He's been on SNL and
he used to work for Marsha and helped us get
in touch with her.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
And he's a dream what else? Also, you know, can
courtrooms have better security? Let's not let guns into the courtroom.

Speaker 4 (01:26:29):
Like that would be amazing. Yeah, the courtroom shootouts, honest views,
seem rampant. It just seems like there's a lot of them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
If you're gonna have an undercover Nazi room, put a
lock on the door, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:26:41):
Don't don't make it so possable. Lock even, like, make
it a little harder to get into. Yeah, you're gonna
get caught if you do. Sell guns. Don't plot I mean,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
It's just like, don't play doom style video games where
you shoot minorities in the street.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
Don't be racist. I mean that's another just a blanket.
Don't be a racist.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
Yeah, and I hope one day I can be in
a courtroom and plead the Fifth. I mean, honestly, I
mean I don't I want to. Yeah, plead the fifth
seems like a great time. I want to plead the fifth.
I want to plead the fifth so bad. I feel
like I can't even talk.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
I'm like too.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
This is how I felt after the Adel concert. I
was just like numb and on cloud nine and my
knees were weak. And that's how I feel after talking
to Marcia Gayhearten. I just like feel I just I
don't even know.

Speaker 4 (01:27:29):
I feel like Jello. My body feels like Jello.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
We'll let you go take a nap, but no, I
don't want. I'm not going to be able to sleep again.
But yeah, I think these are all good lessons. Don't
be racist, don't sell guns to criminals I don't know.
Don't get Rahawa tattooed on your back.

Speaker 1 (01:27:45):
Yeah, go ahead, and just don't get a full back
piece of racial hatred because you just don't know if
your mind will change at some point, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:27:52):
But also it helps you get caught, like the whole thing.
If you are going to be a criminals, to be secretive,
you can't like to have Rahawan your tap your back.
It's like you can't really pretend it wasn't you. It's
gonna be. And don't leave the murder weapon behind. Oh yeah,
they left it in that water tank or whatever. Take
the weapon. Do not leave the weapon behind. That's it.

(01:28:16):
I think the biggest thing you guys are forgetting? Is
the bottle caps on the ceiling that better art?

Speaker 6 (01:28:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
Okay, now it is time for our weekly segment what
would Sister Peg Do, where we direct you towards a
resource or charity where you can get your eyeballs to
learn more about what we've talked about in today's episode.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
And today we are highlighting the Ricky Birds song Memorial
race against Tate and that is powered through the YWCA
of Evanston North Shore, So you know, you know, you
all know how.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
To use Google and we will have our show notes,
but the labe will be at our show notes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
Yes, so oh that giggle was inappropriate, but yeah, if
you'd like to read more information or get involved, that
is the place to visit. They are working on eliminating
racism and empowering women, which we are all for. So
next week we will be doing season eight, episode eleven,

(01:29:18):
Burned And.

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
As always, you can get all episodes of SVU on
Hulu or on Peacock and we'll see you guys next week.

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
That's messed up as an exactly right production. If you
have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you
like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's
Messed Uppod at gmail dot.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
Com, follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up
Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow
us personally at Kara Clank and at Glitter Cheese. As always,
please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
Thank you so much to our producer and fellow SVI
super fan Hannah Kyle Craton.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Thank you to our heroes Stephen Ray Morris and Annalie
Snelson are engineers.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
To Henry Kaperski Musical Extraordinaire for our theme song.

Speaker 4 (01:30:11):
To our artistic Queen, Carly gen Andrews for all of
our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start,
Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 (01:30:29):
Dug

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Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

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