October 1, 2025 • 32 mins
Ever found yourself scrolling LinkedIn at 2 am wondering if you should completely change careers?The average Australian will have 5-6 career changes in their lifetime - so if you're considering it, you're not alone!
Career pivots can feel equal parts exciting and terrifying. In this episode, we get into the real stuff: how to know if it's time to make a move, what to do when you're not sure where to start, and why "transferable skills" are more than just a LinkedIn buzzword. From personal stories to practical advice, we cover the trade-offs and key questions to ask yourself before making the leap.
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
That's a wrap on the BIZ season - thanks for listening along! Stay tuned on our socials @bizbymamamia on Instagram and LinkedIn for what's next.
Resources Mentioned:
You can find more from Lauren here with some guides on some of the toughest feedback conversations to have:
- BIZ Ep: How To Get Along With Anyone
- BIZ Ep: How To Nail The Job Interview
- Ideal Career Coach: Kate Richardson
- 'Play to your strengths' in Learna.
- The clever reason why adult women are giving themselves homework
- General Assembly - Professional Development Courses
THE END BITS
Support independent women's media.
Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to BIZ, Your work life Sorted. I'm
Embernon and I'm Leslie. Today Mark's our final episode of
BIZ for the season, and I honestly think we've saved
something really special for the last episode. Today we are
talking about something that I feel like most of us
have thought about at some point, which is making a
(00:37):
complete career pivot.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh yes, and here's something that might surprise you. According
to mccrindall's analysis of government data, the average Australian is
likely to have around five to six career changes in
their lifetime when we are working for longer, so it
makes sense. And they're not just job changes. We're talking
like full career pivots. So if you're thinking about it,
you're definitely not alone.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Actually makes me feel so much better because I've had
a few career pivots in my life and I feel
like there's still this bias about up to a certain
age you can have a career pivot, and I feel
like this episode will put that to rest because so
many people have career pivots, and I feel like so
many people want to know exactly how to career pivot
without freaking out?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, because it can be really exciting but also terrifying,
and you get stuck in thinking about it but then
doing nothing about it too, because you don't know what
to start.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And there's also so much noise about there about following
your passion and taking the lead. But we also want
to know, like what does that actually look like in practice?
Like how do you know if it's the right time?
And what if you don't even know what you want
to pivot to?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So whether you're actively planning a pivot or just curious
about what it takes, let's dive into it.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So both of us have made big career moves during
our career journey. They don't always come with a neat
or perfect moment. So to kind of set the scene,
I thought we could both share our own career journeys
and career pivots and career parts.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yes please, I love a career story.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I love to ask you people about how they got
into what they do, why they do what they do,
like about it that kind of thing. And you and
I have touched on this briefly, like you've kind of
told me snippets of how you ended up doing what
you're doing now.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'd love to hear how you actually got there, like
what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It's such a journey because I feel like when I
was in university. In school, like my first job I had,
which was in social media, it didn't even exist, Like
that wasn't even a thing. And in university I was
studying urban planning and geography.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh I love this. There's a pivot already.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Massive pivot. And during the end of my degree, I
went to one of those like career expos where you
like choose where you want to go after UNI, and
none of the job prospects bought me any joy. I
loved learning about geography because you could learn about the world,
but the actual job prospects that came out of that
were just not at my alley at all. And I
had a big freak out moment. I talked to my
(02:52):
mom and dad. I was like, I have to quit UNI,
like I can't do anything. I can't do it, and
they were like, no, you need to get your degree.
Immigrant parents are like, Nope, you need to stay in UNI.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
And they were like, why don't you think about things
you like and see if there's like an online course
do or something like that. I was like, okay, I
kind of like being on Instagram, Like I find it
really fun. Is there anything to do with Instagram? And
then I found a digital marketing course with General Assembly. Yeah,
they just did like all these courses and you get
certificates and then you put on your LinkedIn. So I
(03:21):
did a digital marketing course with them. I learned so
so much, and I became so obsessed with not just
digital marketing, but a whole component of that was about
social media, and I became obsessed with that component. So
one of the tasks in that course was to set
up a LinkedIn. And this is what LinkedIn was really
new to me. So I was like, what the heck's
are LinkedIn? I was like, I thought this is LinkedIn? Yeah,
(03:41):
I was like, what this thing that my mom has? Yes,
you were going to set that up. So I was like, okay,
I guess I'll make a linkedinin it's part of the
course and I won't get marked by I don't do it.
Set up my LinkedIn and then the HR manager here
at my MIA saw that in my LinkedIn it had
like no job experiences but interested in social media. Yeah,
so she messaged me on LinkedIn and was like, Hey,
we had this opening for a social media assistant, do
(04:03):
you want to come interview? And I hold this part
of the story so many times where I went to
my mom and I was like, Hey, this person messaged me.
Do you think it's legit? And Mom's like yeah, And
I was like oh. I looked at the job description
for it and I was like I don't have any
of these qualifications. I'm not even gonna try. And Mom's like,
just go experience what an interview is like, So I
did it, got the job, started as a social media assistant,
(04:24):
became obsessed with social media, moved up to a producer role,
and then I realized more than the creative aspect of it,
like creating content, I really love the data behind it,
like how to influence audiences and why audiences like certain
posts over other posts. So from there I went into
audience analytics and data insights, and I became with SEO
(04:44):
and edms like newsletters and like I was obsessed with
user journeys and things like that, and then I just
got to a point where I was like I'm actually
quite bored of this now, Like it's a lot it's
a really, really tough job and I got so much
joy from it, but going over data over and over
and over again, even though I'm such a numbers girl,
I was still my cre outlet was just not happy.
(05:07):
I was still podcasting at that time. So I started
podcasting probably halfway through my social role, but it wasn't
like the one thing I was doing, and I was like,
I need to be more creative because I feel like
that skill set of mine is just going to die down.
And then I was offered a full time writer role
and podcast role so I could just do that, and
that's kind of like what I'm doing now. And now
I'm an associate editor and host. It's like I get
(05:30):
to just be creative every day and do something new
every day. And I didn't realize that this is what
I wanted until I started doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Did you have like realization moments that I want to
try something different with each of those pivots?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, I feel like it always came when I would
talk to other people, not necessarily in my industry, but
outside of media, because I feel like sometimes you can
get really pigeonholed with only talking to media people, and
I think that's probably with every industry. So I was
talking to like my friends who are lawyers, my friends
who were doctors, and they were just like, so, what's next,
And I was like, oh, I didn't know there was
(06:03):
an next. I thought I'd always just do this. And
then I started thinking, and I was like, actually, there's
probably nowhere I can go in audience insights and development
that wouldn't be leaving the company. And I did not
want to leave Mama Mia. Like I was like, I
love it here, like more than the actual job that
I was doing, Like, I love being here, but I
just kind of hit a ceiling in terms of not
(06:24):
just learning, but also like burnout, Like I was struggling
really hard. The only escape from that was pivoting, flexing
a different muscle that I had inflexed in a long time. Yeah,
and what's good about this job now is that I
still use the data insights. It really persuades what I
churn out in content wise, Like I feel like you
(06:45):
never lose that skill set. What I was scared of
is like doing the career pivot and then suddenly forgetting
everything that I'd done in the past. Yeah, I'm so
interested in your career pivots, because I feel like mine's
still kind of in the same area where like, even
now I'm a writer and podcaster, I'm still using everything
I've learned in the past, Like social media's mass even
(07:05):
my role right now, data insights are still massive in
my role. But I've never had a full switch where
it's like a fully new, complete skill set and then
you just have to feel like you're starting again, because
I feel like those career pivots are so interesting and
they're also more scary.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yes, well, I think you'll always find right, there's a
common thread, and like, as I share mine and as
we start to talk about this, I reckon by the
end of the episode, you'll be like, ah, there's.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
My common thread. Everyone has one.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I think the word pivot itself as well, can sound
super shiny, like all of a sudden, I woke up
and I became a social media producer.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
You're like, no, that's not how it happens.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It sounds like you're just dropping everything and just switching.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah. Mine was more a series of shifts, and each one,
while they look completely different on the outside, each one
was really building on the last one. So for those
who don't know, I started my career in media and advertising.
I got into that industry because I loved understanding what
makes people tick and the fact that you can influence
(08:03):
how they take action, engage with bread, etc. And so
I worked my way up through that industry for about
ten years and I was at the point where I
was leading a team.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
On a big, large client.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Right, So I was doing strategy work, planning, client team management,
that kind of thing. So diverse, but still in the
same industry, lots of different skill sets pulled apart. What
started to happen is I found myself getting more and
more interested in how teams worked. So it was still
that common thread of people. Because I got into media
because I liked people. I wanted to understand what made
them tick. Yeah, same thing with running a team. And
(08:36):
I mean, my team had this really, really tough client
that we were working on, and it almost gave me
a breeding ground to go, how can we test out
what's going to work here and how to keep this
team motivated despite the adversity they were facing. So I
started to research and understand and do a bit more
thinking around people and motivation and skills and the skills
they needed in those moments too. So then I went
(08:58):
home maternity leave and I came back and I was like,
I don't want to do that job. I can't lead
that client anymore. It's not where my passion lies. My
passion and doesn't lie in media strategy and planning an
audience analysis, but my passion does lie in helping the
team be as effective as they can be. So still
a people thing. And so I started to dip my
toe in the water with like what was called like
an operations director type role.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yes, so how did you know there was a role
that existed?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
There wasn't right, you know how on other episodes, I've
talked about keep your network strong, keep your connection strong,
always be talking, and always be open about what you're
interested in. So I had a really good relationship with
my boss, So I said, here are the things where
I can add value and the strengths I can bring.
He's like, I basically want you to take what you
did with that team and do it across the whole agency.
(09:44):
And so a role was effectively created.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, And they couldn't really call it people in culture
because I wasn't hr. I wasn't people in culture. They
called it like an operations type role, but my focus
was on people. And so I did that for another
year when I'm atturned to leave again, and then during
that time my role was made redundant, and I was like, Okay,
this is a real reset moment, Like do I want
to keep going with this? Like I've dabbled now, I've
started to shift my skills. Do I want to do
it now? Interestingly, that team I was talking about that
(10:11):
I was leading and running. One of those guys when
started his own agency, and we're having lunch one day
and he said, oh my gosh, great news. We just
won this amazing client and We've got all these people
and I have no idea what to do with them.
He's like, can you come and do like that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Thing that you did. I'm like yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So I effectively became their head of people in culture. Wow,
not effectively, I became their head of people in culture.
And it was the best role ever, right because they said,
blank slate, we want to create the best possible place
to work. We know that you like to test an experiment.
We back you and we trust you. Go oh my god.
So it's kind of scary daunting, but also like it
(10:51):
was always iterative, Right, It's like, here's what I think
we need to do first, and here's why. So I
worked for three years in this very experimental role kind
of taking a product approach to people in culture. Right,
so I think, like my backgrounds and advertising and marketing,
and then people in cult from like, I don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
This hr policy stuff that exists.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I'm going to tackle this from a brand perspective and
a product perspective because that's what I know in marketing
is my background. I was basically trained to look for
problems and go where could a solution be? Is it internal?
Is it external?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Do we created etc.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
And then during that time I could see that people
wanted to learn for work, but things got in the way,
Like they desperately desperately wanted to learn. They're like I
want to be better, i want to be more confident, etc.
I've got to find a solution here. Then I was like,
maybe I could make a solution, and so I spent
about twelve months working in that head of people and
cultural role, researching, doing customer interviews, and developing and creating
(11:47):
Learner from scratch before I actually launched it.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So you started working on Learner while you still had
a full time job.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah. Yeah, So this is what most people don't see
right behind the scenes. They go, oh, you started a business,
Like you just quit your job and then work up
another day and started a thing. I'm like, No, I
worked like weekends, after hours like a crazy person for
about twelve months to understand whether it was even viable
to go and launch as a business.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah as well, And how did you?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Because I feel like a career pivot from a job
to a job or an industry to an industry is
so different from a career pivot from full time work
at a company to starting your own thing.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Well, I mean I've done both, right, yea from job
to job, different jobs, but then job.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
To come business. Like, what was the biggest difference when
you did that pivot the job to business?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean the buck stops with you.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah right, And you've created a business and you have
to bloody love it and be so connected to the
solution because you are going to be doing it day in,
day out and.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Thinking of it NonStop.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Plus you have to be really good at connecting with
people and understanding if your solution is solving their problem too.
So you've got to be able to talk to people,
and you've got to be able to understand what's going
on and not just be like kind of jamming your
solution down there road.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But yeah, you got to love.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
It and what made you go, I'm doing this now.
I'm going to go all in on this.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Do you know what? It's so funny.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I mean, we were talking about I'm going to bring
up the airport analogy before we recorded this EM and
I were talking about how we're different airport people. I
like to get there last minute and likes to be prepared.
I am a vee.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I feel will be very surprised about both of us.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I know who just switched. We have like totally switched.
So I am very driven by gut feel.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And I remember chatting to my husband about this that
I'm like, I've got this idea back of envelope stuff.
He's like, that's cool. He's the opposite to me. He's like,
past it out, go and talk to people. Think about
all your next steps. So when I started from back
of envelope, it's not like I went, oh, and I'm
going to put all of our life savings into developing
an app.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I went, here's the problem. Here's what could be the solution.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And I'm like, my first stage is doing some interviews
with potential customers, doing some interviews with potential users, and
then I put myself through like a training program around
how to create a tech business and launch one as well. Yeah,
so it was very very in tech or was it
all self taught zero?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
So a solo female founder with no experience in tech.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
The odds they are. The odds were a little bit
stacked against me.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
But the reason I bring up the airport analogy is
like it was the most precise, considered, slowest thing I've
ever done, and I think people can get really excited
by pivots and be like, I want to be a
social media producer, I.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Want to start a business.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, you have to be patient, Like it's not going
to be overnight success. There is so much work that
goes in behind the scenes that I wish more people
talked about.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, you're so right, because I feel like, similar to
the airport analogy, I was a bit opposite. When I
was asked if I wanted to do a full time
writer role after being an audience development I was so
so excited that literally the next day to like head
of Contentalize. I was like, so when do I start?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Every day after that, I was like, okay, I want
to do this, When do I start? Can I do this?
I don't want to do that anymore. I want to
do this And she's like, Okay, you need to let
us breathe because we also still have to back fill
that role that you're leaving to come into this one.
And I was like, no, I just got like so excited.
When we think career pivot, it's exactly what you said.
The word pivot feels like it's literally like one day
you're doing this and the next day you're doing that.
(15:18):
But it's actually really slow and it can be quite
painful going through a career pivot, especially when you're in
that limbo phase, especially if you're in the same company
and you're moving from role to role. It will feel
like you're doing two jobs for a really, really long time.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Because you just have to and people will give you
lots of advice, like whether you're pivoting into a different
role or pivoting to start your own business, they'll go, oh,
you should do this, you should do that, and so
you start exploring all these things and not all of
them are going to be the right path to take
either there can be some data ends along the way,
So yeah, take your time because you have to be
patient with the pivot. I think i'd add to that
(15:52):
with a lot of people have this perception that it's
about fully starting over, but for me, it was about
building on what you've already got and finding new ways
to apply it. Like that was that common thread of
understanding people what do people need, and that evolving into
the workplace. So there's generally a strength or a thread
that follows you through.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay, so now let's talk about what happens after you've
recognized you want to have a career pivot and you've
seen the job that you want, how do you figure
out how to actually move towards that goal.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You've probably spoken to a few people about this, right, Yeah.
A lot of.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
People get in their head and then they get stuck
because they just have honestly no idea where to start.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, or you just become overwhelmed and too excited. But
you're like, actually, I want to do this, Actually I
want to do this, Actually I want.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
To do this, or should I do this?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Because it feels really risky and maybe I have to
take a pay cut, or maybe I have to start
interviewing again I haven't interviewed in ages, Or do I
need a five year plan? Like do I really need
to stick with this? Like you can hear the spart
freaking out right.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So something you can try without going all in and
quitting is just starting to slowly like reinvent yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
One of the things you can do is think about
what really energizes you at work and what's the stuff
you naturally lean into.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Like if you had your to do list.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
There's always something you'll gravitate towards right over something else
you'd like, I mean, I know I should do this thing,
but I really like this thing over here, so I'm
just going.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
To go do that one.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
That's a really good indicator of what you're interested in
and the stuff that you probably have natural strengths into.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Oh so, like make a list of things you like.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I mean you can spot it in you to
do list.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Write down maybe three things that like really energize you
about your current work and what are the common things
around that, and also what really drains you, because sometimes
it's the opposite. So what really drains me is data
financial analysis.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I had to do a lot of that in my
media role around reporting, etc.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What excites me is about uncovering your brand and understanding
people and how they tick.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And so I'd always push towards that side.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
This is actually like I feel like people need to
get a notepad out. It's really helpful.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I think what we want you to do is like,
at some point just stop thinking and start doing. And
it doesn't have to be like wholesale, like oh I
just quit my job.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now. It can be like, Okay, here's a role I'm
sit in. What skills does it need?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Which of those skills have I got? Which are the
skills that I've got are transferable? Maybe I could do
a little bit of study like the general Assembly course
you were talking about, yeah, or something like it that
would help me kind of fill those gaps or even
try it, because so often we glamorize these roles and
you get there like oh I actually don't like that.
So doing a short course or doing something like that,
or talking to someone who does that role day to
(18:28):
day to go, what does your average Wednesday look like?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
They go Okay, would I like this or do I
just like the packaging?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, And it's actually such a good way to find
out about a job without actually doing the surface level stuff,
because I feel like when it comes to job interviews
and looking for a job, you'll see the job title
on LinkedIn and then you go for the interview and
they give you a surface level. But if you can
actually meet someone who does your actual job and you
find out what every single day looks like for them,
(18:56):
it gives you such a huge new world of experience
and the understanding of what that job actually entails. Because
we can say we want to create, pivot and do
something that we really like. But every single job you do,
even if it's like owning your own company, there will
be days where you hate. Oh every job you have
to do stuff that you don't like to do. Yeah,
And I think that's really important when you think about
(19:19):
career pivoting, because you can't just be like, I like
to do these things, so I only want to do
these things. Yes, you can be like, okay, but you
also have to do this.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
There are other parts to it that you also have
to do. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So talking to people, I mean, you can hit up
someone on LinkedIn if you want to be like.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Hey, yeah, you do a role that looks really interesting
to me.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I'm thinking about moving that space in the future. Would
you mind if I just asked you a couple of
questions about it. Yeah, people love talking about themselves in
their role, they do, especially on LinkedIn. They love it, Yes,
especially there. So that's a place you could start looking
to do list as well. And I guess think about
like even having coffees with people who are in those
roles right now, because not only are finding out about
the role, you're very subtly networking as well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, and we actually talked about this on a previous episode.
I think it was a few weeks ago, when we
were talking about job interviews. Yeah, and I talked about
's a friend who really wanted this job, but she
didn't get it. So instead she just meets up with
the person who was going to hire her every month
and they go out for coffee. So she just understands
the role more and she keeps that connection because you
never know what's going to happen in the future.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, that is so true.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I think also, like when I speak to people about
career pivots, because I've done a couple people naturally ask
me about it, which is great heat me up with
the questions. The hesitation sometimes comes from not wanting to
invest time in something if you don't know it's one
hundred percent going to come off. So what I mean
by that is they're like, Okay, I might want to
move into interior design, where would I even start? Should
I do the course? Like the course seems expensive, do
(20:41):
I even like it?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And so they kind of get stuck in this loop
of like I'd like to do that one day and
then not doing anything. Yeah, there are a lot of
micro steps you can take to just somewhat test it
and almost experiment. Go Okay, well, if I don't want
to do the full course and sign up and commit
to doing that as well as my full time job,
maybe there's something else I can do and I can
sit on a webinar or I go somewhere else. Think
(21:03):
about what those micro steps are that to the end destination,
Because as we said, this is not an overnight thing.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
No, especially like I feel like so many people want
to go hard and then they pay for all of
these massive courses. There are so many free courses out
there that are so useful even on LinkedIn and Google
and stuff. Yeah, and I always tell people to try
those out first, because if you can't commit to those,
there is no point for you paying for a full course.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yes, and then you have to ask yourself the question
of like, if I can't commit to even the free course,
do I really want this exactly? Yeah, there's someone else
you should follow. Her name's Kate Richardson. She's a career
coach and she specializes in career pivots, and she's done
on herself. I'll link to her in the show notes,
but she often shares some helpful tips around the questions
you can ask yourself as you're like kind of navigating it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Oh, I love that. I'll be so helpful. So, if
you're listening to this right now and you're thinking about
making a career move or a career pivot, here's some
of the best advice we can give you. Do you
mind if I stuff first?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yes? Please.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I have a piece of advice that they tell every
single person just because you're moving into a different role
or a different job or a different industry doesn't mean
the skill sets you made in your last role go
to sleep, Like constantly remind yourself that you have so
many skills that you've developed and worked on. Always take
(22:25):
them to the next role.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah. They make your perspective in the next role so
much more interesting, so.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Much more interesting. And also tell the people you're working
with that you have that skill set.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I love that because people don't always remember.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And also those skills are so unique to you. You
can't just switch them off.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
No, And it's like you want to make the company
better and they should be so excited that they've not
only hired you for that role but also for like
all your previous roles as well.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
And that perspective that you bring, like I was talking
to before about I took a product or brand lens
into people in culture. Yeah, become so unique and you
just see the world and the role differently.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yes, So use it to your advantage.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Use it to your advantage.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I would say for me, you need to ask yourself,
like what kind of work life do you want to
create for yourself?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Because learning is what gives.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You options, and we all want options right at work
and in life. So the number one thing you can
do is keep learning. Yeah, it's the safest way to
test out a new past, Like we talked about the
courses and things before.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
If Andrew has sought us one thing, keep learning.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Keep learning, and you don't have to throw at your
current job.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Right. You can dabble in things on the side like learning.
Can be cashing up with a mentor reaching out to
someone who's done that role before that you don't even know.
It could be like a side project at work. And
also move within a company. You don't have to leave
the company that you're at to get to have a
career pivot.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And you can make it so much fun. I've recently
just come across this TikTok trend because I've written about
it and I've had so many people messaging me about it.
And it's called the monthly curriculum trend. Yeah, and it's
like these adult women who feel like they've gone through
school and everything where you've had like a strict schedule,
like you were told what to do every day, and
(24:01):
then you're suddenly just thrown into the deep end and
you have to figure things out on your own after work.
So it started with this TikToker named Elizabeth Jane, and
she basically goes on TikTok once a month and she
outlines her monthly curriculum, so she actually gives herself things
to learn every month that has nothing to do with
her job.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I love.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So she keeps learning and she'll go through so she's like,
today's month is Augas in my monthly curriculum, I'm going
to be reading this memoir. I'm going to be learning
this recipe. I'm going to be learning the history of fashion.
I'm going to be learning how perfumes are made. Like
she just picks up random topics, but it has to
be topics that she's like genuinely interested.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
In, yeah, because otherwise she won't do it, and.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
She'll spend the whole month like going to libraries, researching, learning,
writing notes just for the sake of constantly learning.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
That is so cool, And.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
It's so cool because I could be something so random,
but you never know how things can impact your job
or come into your role, especially if you're in creative roles.
So I've started doing this. I'm doing my first one
in September. Yeah, and my curriculum is, like I I
outlined as three core things, so I want to do
something thinky, something relaxing, and something actiony. Okay, So for
(25:11):
September I'm learning about the history of India because I'm
Indian and I'm going to India in February, and I
realize I actually don't know much about my own heritage,
so I'm like going to do a full history brief.
And then my relaxing thing is I'm going to learn
a recipe because I don't cook, and I should probably
learn how to cook.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Sime, can you teach me.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I'll teach you. We'll do a cooking episode.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And then my action is something like physical because I
go to pilates and I walk a lot, but that's
kind of like where I stop physically, and I feel
like it's usually your physical health that gets put on
the back burner when things get really stressful. And I
do that all the time.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Like, I love this idea of the monthly curriculum.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
It's just so fun and it also shows that if
it constantly is struggling to learn about like a career
and work and sometimes you just need to get out
of that space, it's still really important to flex that
learning muscle. Yeah, and you can literally teach yourself anything,
like just learn something.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It sparks so many new ideas.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, I think if you're in a role right now
and you're going, I don't know what I want, but
I know this is not it. The best thing you
can learn is all the people skills. Yeah, because everyone
wants to hire someone with strong people skills, and I.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Have a lot of episodes on people skills.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah. Well, I mean the things I'm talking about are like,
can I give feedback, can I motivate people? Can I
motivate myself? Can I handle conflict? That kind of thing.
So if you had a monthly curriculum just around like
anything to do with conflicts or anything to do with
hard conversations, you can take that into any industry and
I guarantee you when you go into the interview and
you show.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Those skills and flex those people love you for it.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think the other thing that's important to call out
with this is that, you know how we were saying
like it's not an overnight success situation, is that sometimes
there's a bit of sacrifice required.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I was talking before about when I was in the
head of people in culturalle and I was creating Learner
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
That was a year of sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's insane, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
But it was something I cared about because I honestly
believe that putting this kind of learning into people's hands
can impact their confidence and make them enjoy work more.
So that's what drives me, right, and that's why I say,
you've got to find something that drives you. But know
that there'll be like some short term pain for long
term gain. I knew it wasn't gonna be forever that
I was working like that. But you might need to
do a bit of study on the site, or you
might need to add a bit extra in. You'll end
(27:16):
up in a better place in the long run.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
What did you feel like you had to sacrifice the
most when you were moving towards learner.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I don't think I watched TV for a year or
read a book.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I mean I've read stuff around so at an audible gas.
So I would literally get up in the morning before
work and before my.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Tell me your daily schedule when you were doing Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
This is a bit nuts, though.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I would get up at like five am and start
working before my kids woke up. I'd switch off and
do everything I need to do with them and get
ready for the day. I'd do my job, we'd do dinner, bath,
bed situation. I'd see my husband, we have dinner together,
and then I'd work from eight pm till midnight, and
then I'd do that again.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And you were like committed to doing that, and.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I'd work every weekend so I would still be doing
stuff with the kids and doing family stuff. We did
a holl epsode on burnt. Remember how we did how
to get burnout during your.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Career of case study?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
We definitely should have.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
This is what we don't want to do, but it
was worth it in the end. But right because I'd
done the work, I cared about the work, and it
was something that it.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Showed yourself that you were committed to it.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
There was sacrifice, and I'm not saying you have to
go to that extreme, yeah, but there will be like
extra things that you do while you work out what
you want to be doing.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, even like if you're going from job to job,
there's always like that mini sacrifice in the short term.
And speaking of what you said, like you could list
all the things you really love about your current job,
but you might not necessarily get to do that in
the job you pivot to. Yes, so you're also sacrificing
that side.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly, know that no job is perfect but there
are things that can be really suited to you know
what your strengths are.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Actually, I'll share a strengths assessment.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
I'll share it in the show notes so people can
dabble and I'm going to figure out what their strengths
are as well.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Okay, it is time for out our one useful thing,
my one useful thing something that you said where you
said stop thinking and start doing. I feel like so
many people who want to career pivot, and myself included
back in the day when I did, I just spend
so much time in my head thinking about it and
then overthinking it and trying to create the perfect role
(29:16):
even though the perfect role literally doesn't exist, and you're
trying to create something that's like not real, but you
want it so badly, and then you keep spiraling and
spiraling and spiraling, and then you're like, oh, too hard,
I'm just not going to do it. Yeah, start doing it, like,
start working towards just want to do one action.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
If I was to chunk this down, there's probably five
steps you need to go through as you like transition
through that pivot.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
The first one is know what you want.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Like we talked about the to do list task, going
through your strengths and doing a bit of a strength assessment.
Know what you want first, and then start to build
your knowledge base, like work out what the gaps are,
what do I have that I can transfer over. The
other part that no one talks about is market your skills.
So if you're going to start moving into a different industry,
you need to start talking to people in that industry
showing what you're capable of as well. Go and listen
(30:01):
to our networking episode on that one, and then be realistic,
be patient, and to put some work in because there
will be a little bit of work in the short term,
short term, pay long term game.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Also remember it doesn't have to be a giant leap.
It can be one step at a time like you're
talking about him. But you've got to start. Just do it,
Just do it. The careers aren'tladders anymore. Like that stat
we share at the start, you are going to have
different careers. They're really built on these skills that you
pick up along the way, the problems you learn to solve,
and then how you apply that in new ways. So
start there so they have a career. Pivots don't have
(30:33):
to be this dramatic leap into the unknown. There can
be these really small, intentional steps that build on what
you've already got. If you're feeling stark, we want you
to pick one small thing you can do this week
to explore that direction you've been thinking about.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Just one thing, just one thing. Your career isn't a
ladder anymore. It's built on skills you've picked up and
how you apply those skills in new ways. Empowering your
career doesn't have to be overwhelming or boring, because learning
can actually be fun. I mean, least you made a
full career out of learning is fun, and growth happens
(31:05):
in those small, everyday moments when you choose to try
something new.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Whether you're navigating a career pivot, learning to give feedback,
or figuring out how to lead a team.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
You don't have to do a loan.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
We're here to make those challenges feel a bit less
scary and a lot more achievable. Thank you for trusting
us with your career growth, for being part of our
biz community, and for being so open to learning new
things for work. Keep asking better questions, back yourself always,
and we'll see you all next season.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
We'll see you next season, and do not worry, We'll
still be posting over our Instagram and LinkedIn. We are
biz by Mom and Mia, so please stay connected with
us and for next season. You can either comment on
our socials or drop into our dms because we want
to know what you want to hear from us next season.
We do BIZ inboxes on Thursday and we get so
many people asking for advice, so if you want like
(31:51):
actual big topics for us to cover, we would love
to know because we are so so excited for the
next round of BIZ. This season was produced by Sophie
Campbell with audio a production by Leah Porges. We will
see you very soon. Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional
(32:38):
owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded
on
You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to BIZ, Your work life Sorted. I'm
Embernon and I'm Leslie. Today Mark's our final episode of
BIZ for the season, and I honestly think we've saved
something really special for the last episode. Today we are
talking about something that I feel like most of us
have thought about at some point, which is making a
(00:37):
complete career pivot.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Oh yes, and here's something that might surprise you. According
to mccrindall's analysis of government data, the average Australian is
likely to have around five to six career changes in
their lifetime when we are working for longer, so it
makes sense. And they're not just job changes. We're talking
like full career pivots. So if you're thinking about it,
you're definitely not alone.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Actually makes me feel so much better because I've had
a few career pivots in my life and I feel
like there's still this bias about up to a certain
age you can have a career pivot, and I feel
like this episode will put that to rest because so
many people have career pivots, and I feel like so
many people want to know exactly how to career pivot
without freaking out?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, because it can be really exciting but also terrifying,
and you get stuck in thinking about it but then
doing nothing about it too, because you don't know what
to start.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
And there's also so much noise about there about following
your passion and taking the lead. But we also want
to know, like what does that actually look like in practice?
Like how do you know if it's the right time?
And what if you don't even know what you want
to pivot to?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So whether you're actively planning a pivot or just curious
about what it takes, let's dive into it.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So both of us have made big career moves during
our career journey. They don't always come with a neat
or perfect moment. So to kind of set the scene,
I thought we could both share our own career journeys
and career pivots and career parts.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yes please, I love a career story.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I love to ask you people about how they got
into what they do, why they do what they do,
like about it that kind of thing. And you and
I have touched on this briefly, like you've kind of
told me snippets of how you ended up doing what
you're doing now.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'd love to hear how you actually got there, like
what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
It's such a journey because I feel like when I
was in university. In school, like my first job I had,
which was in social media, it didn't even exist, Like
that wasn't even a thing. And in university I was
studying urban planning and geography.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh I love this. There's a pivot already.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Massive pivot. And during the end of my degree, I
went to one of those like career expos where you
like choose where you want to go after UNI, and
none of the job prospects bought me any joy. I
loved learning about geography because you could learn about the world,
but the actual job prospects that came out of that
were just not at my alley at all. And I
had a big freak out moment. I talked to my
(02:52):
mom and dad. I was like, I have to quit UNI,
like I can't do anything. I can't do it, and
they were like, no, you need to get your degree.
Immigrant parents are like, Nope, you need to stay in UNI.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
And they were like, why don't you think about things
you like and see if there's like an online course
do or something like that. I was like, okay, I
kind of like being on Instagram, Like I find it
really fun. Is there anything to do with Instagram? And
then I found a digital marketing course with General Assembly. Yeah,
they just did like all these courses and you get
certificates and then you put on your LinkedIn. So I
(03:21):
did a digital marketing course with them. I learned so
so much, and I became so obsessed with not just
digital marketing, but a whole component of that was about
social media, and I became obsessed with that component. So
one of the tasks in that course was to set
up a LinkedIn. And this is what LinkedIn was really
new to me. So I was like, what the heck's
are LinkedIn? I was like, I thought this is LinkedIn? Yeah,
(03:41):
I was like, what this thing that my mom has? Yes,
you were going to set that up. So I was like, okay,
I guess I'll make a linkedinin it's part of the
course and I won't get marked by I don't do it.
Set up my LinkedIn and then the HR manager here
at my MIA saw that in my LinkedIn it had
like no job experiences but interested in social media. Yeah,
so she messaged me on LinkedIn and was like, Hey,
we had this opening for a social media assistant, do
(04:03):
you want to come interview? And I hold this part
of the story so many times where I went to
my mom and I was like, Hey, this person messaged me.
Do you think it's legit? And Mom's like yeah, And
I was like oh. I looked at the job description
for it and I was like I don't have any
of these qualifications. I'm not even gonna try. And Mom's like,
just go experience what an interview is like, So I
did it, got the job, started as a social media assistant,
(04:24):
became obsessed with social media, moved up to a producer role,
and then I realized more than the creative aspect of it,
like creating content, I really love the data behind it,
like how to influence audiences and why audiences like certain
posts over other posts. So from there I went into
audience analytics and data insights, and I became with SEO
(04:44):
and edms like newsletters and like I was obsessed with
user journeys and things like that, and then I just
got to a point where I was like I'm actually
quite bored of this now, Like it's a lot it's
a really, really tough job and I got so much
joy from it, but going over data over and over
and over again, even though I'm such a numbers girl,
I was still my cre outlet was just not happy.
(05:07):
I was still podcasting at that time. So I started
podcasting probably halfway through my social role, but it wasn't
like the one thing I was doing, and I was like,
I need to be more creative because I feel like
that skill set of mine is just going to die down.
And then I was offered a full time writer role
and podcast role so I could just do that, and
that's kind of like what I'm doing now. And now
I'm an associate editor and host. It's like I get
(05:30):
to just be creative every day and do something new
every day. And I didn't realize that this is what
I wanted until I started doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Did you have like realization moments that I want to
try something different with each of those pivots?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, I feel like it always came when I would
talk to other people, not necessarily in my industry, but
outside of media, because I feel like sometimes you can
get really pigeonholed with only talking to media people, and
I think that's probably with every industry. So I was
talking to like my friends who are lawyers, my friends
who were doctors, and they were just like, so, what's next,
And I was like, oh, I didn't know there was
(06:03):
an next. I thought I'd always just do this. And
then I started thinking, and I was like, actually, there's
probably nowhere I can go in audience insights and development
that wouldn't be leaving the company. And I did not
want to leave Mama Mia. Like I was like, I
love it here, like more than the actual job that
I was doing, Like, I love being here, but I
just kind of hit a ceiling in terms of not
(06:24):
just learning, but also like burnout, Like I was struggling
really hard. The only escape from that was pivoting, flexing
a different muscle that I had inflexed in a long time. Yeah,
and what's good about this job now is that I
still use the data insights. It really persuades what I
churn out in content wise, Like I feel like you
(06:45):
never lose that skill set. What I was scared of
is like doing the career pivot and then suddenly forgetting
everything that I'd done in the past. Yeah, I'm so
interested in your career pivots, because I feel like mine's
still kind of in the same area where like, even
now I'm a writer and podcaster, I'm still using everything
I've learned in the past, Like social media's mass even
(07:05):
my role right now, data insights are still massive in
my role. But I've never had a full switch where
it's like a fully new, complete skill set and then
you just have to feel like you're starting again, because
I feel like those career pivots are so interesting and
they're also more scary.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yes, well, I think you'll always find right, there's a
common thread, and like, as I share mine and as
we start to talk about this, I reckon by the
end of the episode, you'll be like, ah, there's.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
My common thread. Everyone has one.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I think the word pivot itself as well, can sound
super shiny, like all of a sudden, I woke up
and I became a social media producer.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
You're like, no, that's not how it happens.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It sounds like you're just dropping everything and just switching.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah. Mine was more a series of shifts, and each one,
while they look completely different on the outside, each one
was really building on the last one. So for those
who don't know, I started my career in media and advertising.
I got into that industry because I loved understanding what
makes people tick and the fact that you can influence
(08:03):
how they take action, engage with bread, etc. And so
I worked my way up through that industry for about
ten years and I was at the point where I
was leading a team.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
On a big, large client.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Right, So I was doing strategy work, planning, client team management,
that kind of thing. So diverse, but still in the
same industry, lots of different skill sets pulled apart. What
started to happen is I found myself getting more and
more interested in how teams worked. So it was still
that common thread of people. Because I got into media
because I liked people. I wanted to understand what made
them tick. Yeah, same thing with running a team. And
(08:36):
I mean, my team had this really, really tough client
that we were working on, and it almost gave me
a breeding ground to go, how can we test out
what's going to work here and how to keep this
team motivated despite the adversity they were facing. So I
started to research and understand and do a bit more
thinking around people and motivation and skills and the skills
they needed in those moments too. So then I went
(08:58):
home maternity leave and I came back and I was like,
I don't want to do that job. I can't lead
that client anymore. It's not where my passion lies. My
passion and doesn't lie in media strategy and planning an
audience analysis, but my passion does lie in helping the
team be as effective as they can be. So still
a people thing. And so I started to dip my
toe in the water with like what was called like
an operations director type role.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yes, so how did you know there was a role
that existed?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
There wasn't right, you know how on other episodes, I've
talked about keep your network strong, keep your connection strong,
always be talking, and always be open about what you're
interested in. So I had a really good relationship with
my boss, So I said, here are the things where
I can add value and the strengths I can bring.
He's like, I basically want you to take what you
did with that team and do it across the whole agency.
(09:44):
And so a role was effectively created.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, And they couldn't really call it people in culture
because I wasn't hr. I wasn't people in culture. They
called it like an operations type role, but my focus
was on people. And so I did that for another
year when I'm atturned to leave again, and then during
that time my role was made redundant, and I was like, Okay,
this is a real reset moment, Like do I want
to keep going with this? Like I've dabbled now, I've
started to shift my skills. Do I want to do
it now? Interestingly, that team I was talking about that
(10:11):
I was leading and running. One of those guys when
started his own agency, and we're having lunch one day
and he said, oh my gosh, great news. We just
won this amazing client and We've got all these people
and I have no idea what to do with them.
He's like, can you come and do like that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Thing that you did. I'm like yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So I effectively became their head of people in culture. Wow,
not effectively, I became their head of people in culture.
And it was the best role ever, right because they said,
blank slate, we want to create the best possible place
to work. We know that you like to test an experiment.
We back you and we trust you. Go oh my god.
So it's kind of scary daunting, but also like it
(10:51):
was always iterative, Right, It's like, here's what I think
we need to do first, and here's why. So I
worked for three years in this very experimental role kind
of taking a product approach to people in culture. Right,
so I think, like my backgrounds and advertising and marketing,
and then people in cult from like, I don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
This hr policy stuff that exists.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I'm going to tackle this from a brand perspective and
a product perspective because that's what I know in marketing
is my background. I was basically trained to look for
problems and go where could a solution be? Is it internal?
Is it external?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Do we created etc.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
And then during that time I could see that people
wanted to learn for work, but things got in the way,
Like they desperately desperately wanted to learn. They're like I
want to be better, i want to be more confident, etc.
I've got to find a solution here. Then I was like,
maybe I could make a solution, and so I spent
about twelve months working in that head of people and
cultural role, researching, doing customer interviews, and developing and creating
(11:47):
Learner from scratch before I actually launched it.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So you started working on Learner while you still had
a full time job.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah. Yeah, So this is what most people don't see
right behind the scenes. They go, oh, you started a business,
Like you just quit your job and then work up
another day and started a thing. I'm like, No, I
worked like weekends, after hours like a crazy person for
about twelve months to understand whether it was even viable
to go and launch as a business.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah as well, And how did you?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Because I feel like a career pivot from a job
to a job or an industry to an industry is
so different from a career pivot from full time work
at a company to starting your own thing.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Well, I mean I've done both, right, yea from job
to job, different jobs, but then job.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
To come business. Like, what was the biggest difference when
you did that pivot the job to business?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean the buck stops with you.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah right, And you've created a business and you have
to bloody love it and be so connected to the
solution because you are going to be doing it day in,
day out and.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Thinking of it NonStop.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Plus you have to be really good at connecting with
people and understanding if your solution is solving their problem too.
So you've got to be able to talk to people,
and you've got to be able to understand what's going
on and not just be like kind of jamming your
solution down there road.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But yeah, you got to love.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
It and what made you go, I'm doing this now.
I'm going to go all in on this.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Do you know what? It's so funny.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I mean, we were talking about I'm going to bring
up the airport analogy before we recorded this EM and
I were talking about how we're different airport people. I
like to get there last minute and likes to be prepared.
I am a vee.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I feel will be very surprised about both of us.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I know who just switched. We have like totally switched.
So I am very driven by gut feel.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And I remember chatting to my husband about this that
I'm like, I've got this idea back of envelope stuff.
He's like, that's cool. He's the opposite to me. He's like,
past it out, go and talk to people. Think about
all your next steps. So when I started from back
of envelope, it's not like I went, oh, and I'm
going to put all of our life savings into developing
an app.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I went, here's the problem. Here's what could be the solution.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And I'm like, my first stage is doing some interviews
with potential customers, doing some interviews with potential users, and
then I put myself through like a training program around
how to create a tech business and launch one as well. Yeah,
so it was very very in tech or was it
all self taught zero?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
So a solo female founder with no experience in tech.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
The odds they are. The odds were a little bit
stacked against me.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
But the reason I bring up the airport analogy is
like it was the most precise, considered, slowest thing I've
ever done, and I think people can get really excited
by pivots and be like, I want to be a
social media producer, I.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Want to start a business.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, you have to be patient, Like it's not going
to be overnight success. There is so much work that
goes in behind the scenes that I wish more people
talked about.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, you're so right, because I feel like, similar to
the airport analogy, I was a bit opposite. When I
was asked if I wanted to do a full time
writer role after being an audience development I was so
so excited that literally the next day to like head
of Contentalize. I was like, so when do I start?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Every day after that, I was like, okay, I want
to do this, When do I start? Can I do this?
I don't want to do that anymore. I want to
do this And she's like, Okay, you need to let
us breathe because we also still have to back fill
that role that you're leaving to come into this one.
And I was like, no, I just got like so excited.
When we think career pivot, it's exactly what you said.
The word pivot feels like it's literally like one day
you're doing this and the next day you're doing that.
(15:18):
But it's actually really slow and it can be quite
painful going through a career pivot, especially when you're in
that limbo phase, especially if you're in the same company
and you're moving from role to role. It will feel
like you're doing two jobs for a really, really long time.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Because you just have to and people will give you
lots of advice, like whether you're pivoting into a different
role or pivoting to start your own business, they'll go, oh,
you should do this, you should do that, and so
you start exploring all these things and not all of
them are going to be the right path to take
either there can be some data ends along the way,
So yeah, take your time because you have to be
patient with the pivot. I think i'd add to that
(15:52):
with a lot of people have this perception that it's
about fully starting over, but for me, it was about
building on what you've already got and finding new ways
to apply it. Like that was that common thread of
understanding people what do people need, and that evolving into
the workplace. So there's generally a strength or a thread
that follows you through.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Okay, so now let's talk about what happens after you've
recognized you want to have a career pivot and you've
seen the job that you want, how do you figure
out how to actually move towards that goal.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You've probably spoken to a few people about this, right, Yeah.
A lot of.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
People get in their head and then they get stuck
because they just have honestly no idea where to start.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, or you just become overwhelmed and too excited. But
you're like, actually, I want to do this, Actually I
want to do this, Actually I want.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
To do this, or should I do this?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Because it feels really risky and maybe I have to
take a pay cut, or maybe I have to start
interviewing again I haven't interviewed in ages, Or do I
need a five year plan? Like do I really need
to stick with this? Like you can hear the spart
freaking out right.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
So something you can try without going all in and
quitting is just starting to slowly like reinvent yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
One of the things you can do is think about
what really energizes you at work and what's the stuff
you naturally lean into.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Like if you had your to do list.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
There's always something you'll gravitate towards right over something else
you'd like, I mean, I know I should do this thing,
but I really like this thing over here, so I'm
just going.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
To go do that one.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
That's a really good indicator of what you're interested in
and the stuff that you probably have natural strengths into.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Oh so, like make a list of things you like.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I mean you can spot it in you to
do list.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Write down maybe three things that like really energize you
about your current work and what are the common things
around that, and also what really drains you, because sometimes
it's the opposite. So what really drains me is data
financial analysis.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I had to do a lot of that in my
media role around reporting, etc.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What excites me is about uncovering your brand and understanding
people and how they tick.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And so I'd always push towards that side.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
This is actually like I feel like people need to
get a notepad out. It's really helpful.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
I think what we want you to do is like,
at some point just stop thinking and start doing. And
it doesn't have to be like wholesale, like oh I
just quit my job.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now. It can be like, Okay, here's a role I'm
sit in. What skills does it need?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Which of those skills have I got? Which are the
skills that I've got are transferable? Maybe I could do
a little bit of study like the general Assembly course
you were talking about, yeah, or something like it that
would help me kind of fill those gaps or even
try it, because so often we glamorize these roles and
you get there like oh I actually don't like that.
So doing a short course or doing something like that,
or talking to someone who does that role day to
(18:28):
day to go, what does your average Wednesday look like?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
They go Okay, would I like this or do I
just like the packaging?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, And it's actually such a good way to find
out about a job without actually doing the surface level stuff,
because I feel like when it comes to job interviews
and looking for a job, you'll see the job title
on LinkedIn and then you go for the interview and
they give you a surface level. But if you can
actually meet someone who does your actual job and you
find out what every single day looks like for them,
(18:56):
it gives you such a huge new world of experience
and the understanding of what that job actually entails. Because
we can say we want to create, pivot and do
something that we really like. But every single job you do,
even if it's like owning your own company, there will
be days where you hate. Oh every job you have
to do stuff that you don't like to do. Yeah,
And I think that's really important when you think about
(19:19):
career pivoting, because you can't just be like, I like
to do these things, so I only want to do
these things. Yes, you can be like, okay, but you
also have to do this.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
There are other parts to it that you also have
to do. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So talking to people, I mean, you can hit up
someone on LinkedIn if you want to be like.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Hey, yeah, you do a role that looks really interesting
to me.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I'm thinking about moving that space in the future. Would
you mind if I just asked you a couple of
questions about it. Yeah, people love talking about themselves in
their role, they do, especially on LinkedIn. They love it, Yes,
especially there. So that's a place you could start looking
to do list as well. And I guess think about
like even having coffees with people who are in those
roles right now, because not only are finding out about
the role, you're very subtly networking as well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, and we actually talked about this on a previous episode.
I think it was a few weeks ago, when we
were talking about job interviews. Yeah, and I talked about
's a friend who really wanted this job, but she
didn't get it. So instead she just meets up with
the person who was going to hire her every month
and they go out for coffee. So she just understands
the role more and she keeps that connection because you
never know what's going to happen in the future.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, that is so true.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
I think also, like when I speak to people about
career pivots, because I've done a couple people naturally ask
me about it, which is great heat me up with
the questions. The hesitation sometimes comes from not wanting to
invest time in something if you don't know it's one
hundred percent going to come off. So what I mean
by that is they're like, Okay, I might want to
move into interior design, where would I even start? Should
I do the course? Like the course seems expensive, do
(20:41):
I even like it?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And so they kind of get stuck in this loop
of like I'd like to do that one day and
then not doing anything. Yeah, there are a lot of
micro steps you can take to just somewhat test it
and almost experiment. Go Okay, well, if I don't want
to do the full course and sign up and commit
to doing that as well as my full time job,
maybe there's something else I can do and I can
sit on a webinar or I go somewhere else. Think
(21:03):
about what those micro steps are that to the end destination,
Because as we said, this is not an overnight thing.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
No, especially like I feel like so many people want
to go hard and then they pay for all of
these massive courses. There are so many free courses out
there that are so useful even on LinkedIn and Google
and stuff. Yeah, and I always tell people to try
those out first, because if you can't commit to those,
there is no point for you paying for a full course.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yes, and then you have to ask yourself the question
of like, if I can't commit to even the free course,
do I really want this exactly? Yeah, there's someone else
you should follow. Her name's Kate Richardson. She's a career
coach and she specializes in career pivots, and she's done
on herself. I'll link to her in the show notes,
but she often shares some helpful tips around the questions
you can ask yourself as you're like kind of navigating it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Oh, I love that. I'll be so helpful. So, if
you're listening to this right now and you're thinking about
making a career move or a career pivot, here's some
of the best advice we can give you. Do you
mind if I stuff first?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yes? Please.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I have a piece of advice that they tell every
single person just because you're moving into a different role
or a different job or a different industry doesn't mean
the skill sets you made in your last role go
to sleep, Like constantly remind yourself that you have so
many skills that you've developed and worked on. Always take
(22:25):
them to the next role.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah. They make your perspective in the next role so
much more interesting, so.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Much more interesting. And also tell the people you're working
with that you have that skill set.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I love that because people don't always remember.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
And also those skills are so unique to you. You
can't just switch them off.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
No, And it's like you want to make the company
better and they should be so excited that they've not
only hired you for that role but also for like
all your previous roles as well.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
And that perspective that you bring, like I was talking
to before about I took a product or brand lens
into people in culture. Yeah, become so unique and you
just see the world and the role differently.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yes, So use it to your advantage.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Use it to your advantage.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I would say for me, you need to ask yourself,
like what kind of work life do you want to
create for yourself?
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Because learning is what gives.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You options, and we all want options right at work
and in life. So the number one thing you can
do is keep learning. Yeah, it's the safest way to
test out a new past, Like we talked about the
courses and things before.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
If Andrew has sought us one thing, keep learning.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Keep learning, and you don't have to throw at your
current job.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Right. You can dabble in things on the side like learning.
Can be cashing up with a mentor reaching out to
someone who's done that role before that you don't even know.
It could be like a side project at work. And
also move within a company. You don't have to leave
the company that you're at to get to have a
career pivot.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And you can make it so much fun. I've recently
just come across this TikTok trend because I've written about
it and I've had so many people messaging me about it.
And it's called the monthly curriculum trend. Yeah, and it's
like these adult women who feel like they've gone through
school and everything where you've had like a strict schedule,
like you were told what to do every day, and
(24:01):
then you're suddenly just thrown into the deep end and
you have to figure things out on your own after work.
So it started with this TikToker named Elizabeth Jane, and
she basically goes on TikTok once a month and she
outlines her monthly curriculum, so she actually gives herself things
to learn every month that has nothing to do with
her job.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I love.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
So she keeps learning and she'll go through so she's like,
today's month is Augas in my monthly curriculum, I'm going
to be reading this memoir. I'm going to be learning
this recipe. I'm going to be learning the history of fashion.
I'm going to be learning how perfumes are made. Like
she just picks up random topics, but it has to
be topics that she's like genuinely interested.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
In, yeah, because otherwise she won't do it, and.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
She'll spend the whole month like going to libraries, researching, learning,
writing notes just for the sake of constantly learning.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
That is so cool, And.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
It's so cool because I could be something so random,
but you never know how things can impact your job
or come into your role, especially if you're in creative roles.
So I've started doing this. I'm doing my first one
in September. Yeah, and my curriculum is, like I I
outlined as three core things, so I want to do
something thinky, something relaxing, and something actiony. Okay, So for
(25:11):
September I'm learning about the history of India because I'm
Indian and I'm going to India in February, and I
realize I actually don't know much about my own heritage,
so I'm like going to do a full history brief.
And then my relaxing thing is I'm going to learn
a recipe because I don't cook, and I should probably
learn how to cook.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Sime, can you teach me.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I'll teach you. We'll do a cooking episode.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And then my action is something like physical because I
go to pilates and I walk a lot, but that's
kind of like where I stop physically, and I feel
like it's usually your physical health that gets put on
the back burner when things get really stressful. And I
do that all the time.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Like, I love this idea of the monthly curriculum.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
It's just so fun and it also shows that if
it constantly is struggling to learn about like a career
and work and sometimes you just need to get out
of that space, it's still really important to flex that
learning muscle. Yeah, and you can literally teach yourself anything,
like just learn something.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It sparks so many new ideas.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, I think if you're in a role right now
and you're going, I don't know what I want, but
I know this is not it. The best thing you
can learn is all the people skills. Yeah, because everyone
wants to hire someone with strong people skills, and I.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Have a lot of episodes on people skills.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah. Well, I mean the things I'm talking about are like,
can I give feedback, can I motivate people? Can I
motivate myself? Can I handle conflict? That kind of thing.
So if you had a monthly curriculum just around like
anything to do with conflicts or anything to do with
hard conversations, you can take that into any industry and
I guarantee you when you go into the interview and
you show.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Those skills and flex those people love you for it.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think the other thing that's important to call out
with this is that, you know how we were saying
like it's not an overnight success situation, is that sometimes
there's a bit of sacrifice required.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I was talking before about when I was in the
head of people in culturalle and I was creating Learner
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
That was a year of sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's insane, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
But it was something I cared about because I honestly
believe that putting this kind of learning into people's hands
can impact their confidence and make them enjoy work more.
So that's what drives me, right, and that's why I say,
you've got to find something that drives you. But know
that there'll be like some short term pain for long
term gain. I knew it wasn't gonna be forever that
I was working like that. But you might need to
do a bit of study on the site, or you
might need to add a bit extra in. You'll end
(27:16):
up in a better place in the long run.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
What did you feel like you had to sacrifice the
most when you were moving towards learner.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I don't think I watched TV for a year or
read a book.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I mean I've read stuff around so at an audible gas.
So I would literally get up in the morning before
work and before my.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Tell me your daily schedule when you were doing Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
This is a bit nuts, though.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I would get up at like five am and start
working before my kids woke up. I'd switch off and
do everything I need to do with them and get
ready for the day. I'd do my job, we'd do dinner, bath,
bed situation. I'd see my husband, we have dinner together,
and then I'd work from eight pm till midnight, and
then I'd do that again.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And you were like committed to doing that, and.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I'd work every weekend so I would still be doing
stuff with the kids and doing family stuff. We did
a holl epsode on burnt. Remember how we did how
to get burnout during your.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Career of case study?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
We definitely should have.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
This is what we don't want to do, but it
was worth it in the end. But right because I'd
done the work, I cared about the work, and it
was something that it.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Showed yourself that you were committed to it.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
There was sacrifice, and I'm not saying you have to
go to that extreme, yeah, but there will be like
extra things that you do while you work out what
you want to be doing.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, even like if you're going from job to job,
there's always like that mini sacrifice in the short term.
And speaking of what you said, like you could list
all the things you really love about your current job,
but you might not necessarily get to do that in
the job you pivot to. Yes, so you're also sacrificing
that side.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly, know that no job is perfect but there
are things that can be really suited to you know
what your strengths are.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Actually, I'll share a strengths assessment.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
I'll share it in the show notes so people can
dabble and I'm going to figure out what their strengths
are as well.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Okay, it is time for out our one useful thing,
my one useful thing something that you said where you
said stop thinking and start doing. I feel like so
many people who want to career pivot, and myself included
back in the day when I did, I just spend
so much time in my head thinking about it and
then overthinking it and trying to create the perfect role
(29:16):
even though the perfect role literally doesn't exist, and you're
trying to create something that's like not real, but you
want it so badly, and then you keep spiraling and
spiraling and spiraling, and then you're like, oh, too hard,
I'm just not going to do it. Yeah, start doing it, like,
start working towards just want to do one action.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
If I was to chunk this down, there's probably five
steps you need to go through as you like transition
through that pivot.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
The first one is know what you want.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Like we talked about the to do list task, going
through your strengths and doing a bit of a strength assessment.
Know what you want first, and then start to build
your knowledge base, like work out what the gaps are,
what do I have that I can transfer over. The
other part that no one talks about is market your skills.
So if you're going to start moving into a different industry,
you need to start talking to people in that industry
showing what you're capable of as well. Go and listen
(30:01):
to our networking episode on that one, and then be realistic,
be patient, and to put some work in because there
will be a little bit of work in the short term,
short term, pay long term game.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Also remember it doesn't have to be a giant leap.
It can be one step at a time like you're
talking about him. But you've got to start. Just do it,
Just do it. The careers aren'tladders anymore. Like that stat
we share at the start, you are going to have
different careers. They're really built on these skills that you
pick up along the way, the problems you learn to solve,
and then how you apply that in new ways. So
start there so they have a career. Pivots don't have
(30:33):
to be this dramatic leap into the unknown. There can
be these really small, intentional steps that build on what
you've already got. If you're feeling stark, we want you
to pick one small thing you can do this week
to explore that direction you've been thinking about.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Just one thing, just one thing. Your career isn't a
ladder anymore. It's built on skills you've picked up and
how you apply those skills in new ways. Empowering your
career doesn't have to be overwhelming or boring, because learning
can actually be fun. I mean, least you made a
full career out of learning is fun, and growth happens
(31:05):
in those small, everyday moments when you choose to try
something new.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Whether you're navigating a career pivot, learning to give feedback,
or figuring out how to lead a team.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
You don't have to do a loan.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
We're here to make those challenges feel a bit less
scary and a lot more achievable. Thank you for trusting
us with your career growth, for being part of our
biz community, and for being so open to learning new
things for work. Keep asking better questions, back yourself always,
and we'll see you all next season.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
We'll see you next season, and do not worry, We'll
still be posting over our Instagram and LinkedIn. We are
biz by Mom and Mia, so please stay connected with
us and for next season. You can either comment on
our socials or drop into our dms because we want
to know what you want to hear from us next season.
We do BIZ inboxes on Thursday and we get so
many people asking for advice, so if you want like
(31:51):
actual big topics for us to cover, we would love
to know because we are so so excited for the
next round of BIZ. This season was produced by Sophie
Campbell with audio a production by Leah Porges. We will
see you very soon. Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional
(32:38):
owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded
on
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