October 27, 2025 • 30 mins
Let's be honest...waiting until you feel "ready" to make a career move is like waiting for the perfect weather to start exercising. It's never going to happen, and meanwhile, everyone else is getting ahead. This week, we're diving deep into why learning isn't just nice-to-have anymore - it's career insurance. Our guest Andrea Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast, and she doesn't believe in waiting until you're ready to grow.
From recognizing when that "mutual value exchange" with your employer has run its course, to spotting signals of change before they become obvious to everyone else. We explore why Andrea invested $3,000 in an AI course back in 2017 (spoiler: it paid off massively) and tackle the biggest blocker to career growth - thinking you need to feel 100% confident before taking action.
What you'll learn:
• The "mutual value exchange" test to know when it's time to move on
• How to spot signals of change 5 years before your industry
• Micro-learning strategies for busy people who think they don't have time
• Why courage brings clarity and how to turn experiments into evidence
• How to align your learning goals with where your business is heading in 2030
Resources:
- Future Fit: How To Stay Relevant And Competitive In The Future Of Work by Andrea Clarke
- Adapt: Mastering change in four steps by Andrea Clarke
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
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Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
GUEST: Andrea Clarke
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
m Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
honestly made me rethink my entire approach to career growth.
Lisa and I chatted with Andrea Clark about why waiting
until you feel ready to make a career move is
basically setting yourself up to never actually do it. Andrea
(00:33):
has this brilliant concept called the mutual value exchange that
helps you figure out when it's actually time to move
on from a job versus when you're just having a moment.
If you've been sitting in what she calls the waiting place,
or you know you need to upskill but keep putting
it off, this conversation will give you the push you need.
Sometimes courage really does bring clarity. I hope you love
(00:55):
it as much as we did talking to Andrea. Hello
and welcome to BIZ Your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I'm M Verner and I'm Lesally.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So am today I want to ask you when was
the last time you looked at a work challenge and
thought this is a chance to grow instead of oh why.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Is this happening?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You know, me well enough to know exactly what the
answer is. It's been like years since I've said this
is a time to grow, a chance to grow.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
You didn't get a T shirt with them together.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Everything's a learning opportunity. I haven't said that in a really,
really long time. I feel like I always avoid doing
that because I'm so scared of slipping into that workaholic
mode We've talked about before, that hustle culture, and I
just completely go the opposite way.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, and I don't think like learning and hustle culture
have to go together. But in a world where industries
and roles can shift totally overnight, staying in death will
feels more like survival and being relevant as well. The
people thriving aren't necessarily the smartest as well. I think
they're the ones who see every curveball as a learning opportunity,
which sounds so forced, but a moment ago, I actually
(02:02):
learned something here and I'm better for it, Which.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is also why I am very, very excited for an
episode today because we actually have a guest on this episode.
It's a little bit rare for us, but we have
a guest in here in the studio. Least tell me
about our guest.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So Andrew Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast.
She has broadcast in war zones, and she's also written
a couple of books about future ready careers.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Just a small career, just a couple of things there.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
She doesn't believe in waiting until you're ready to grow,
which I love about her, and she talks a lot
about this in this episode today. She says, the most
powerful thing you can do is take action before you
feel one hundred percent confident.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So if you are ready to turn I mean, according
to Ana, you don't even have to be ready, if
you're ready to turn every challenge into a growth opportunity
and build learning into your career. This conversation is for you, Andrea,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So we've all had that moment where you're in a
job or even a whole career path and from the
outside everything looks fine. You're ticking the boxes, feedbas good salary, steady,
but something just feels I don't know it off yeah,
like you're running out of energy for it or worse,
I think you're head a bad point now. If you're
starting to dread Monday.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Mornings for Sunday scaries.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, for Sunday scaries.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
So how do you know when that feeling is actually
a sign or a signal? As Andrea likes to say
that you should make a change and not just push through.
And what if nothing's actually wrong, You're just having a moment,
Because we all have moments, Andrea, what are the real
signs someone should be watching for that say like it's
time to rethink this? And what are people often ignore
until it's too late.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
The first sign is the mutual value exchange. Now, a
mutual value exchange is that balance that you have with
an employer. Now I get paid to come to work,
I come to work, I deliver the work. That's a
mutual value exchange. Now, when that has been out of
balance for too long, that's usually when we feel like
(03:58):
something needs to change here.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I need a bit of a rethink.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
So unless there's something to address with your employer, it
might be something in, it might be something external. But
I would encourage everyone listening to think about has this
mutual value to exchange run its course in some form?
And if it has, what then is my next step?
Do I have to address something within myself or is
(04:21):
it something that I have to address in the workplace
makes sense?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah, how would you know that if it's run its course?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
I think that's a gut feeling. I think we've all
stayed in relationships for.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Too long, or we know they've been guilty.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
It's something that only you can make that call on.
It's a gut feel, it's instinct, it's intuition, call it
whatever you want to call it. But we all know
when something is run its course. And I feel that
it's very important to especially from a workplace or a job,
to exit on a high, leave when it's good, leave
(04:55):
something on the table for someone else. I think that's
a very generous way to look at a career. And
I worked in media for many years, and I make
this observation other people and myself.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
How long am I.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Willing to stay on this sort of career or job
high for or is there an opportunity for me to
step aside, move on to something else and be generous
to leave something on the table.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah? Is this comfort like always a red flag? Though?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Like, sometimes I feel like we are uncomfortable through change,
or we're uncomfortable when we're learning something for the first time.
And sometimes people will go well, stuff that like I'm out,
this is too hard. Where's that line where you're actually
learning versus like full redplace, like the middle ground.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Yeah, you've got to feel stretched, right.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
We can sit in this comfort zone and I've got
a friend Lisa Stevenson who calls it the waiting place.
Like we can sit in this waiting place for an
extended period of time. It's up to us to demonstrate
the agency to move out and to find something new.
So I think the balance again comes back to how
often do I feel like I'm stretching myself or do
I feel like I'm sitting in the waiting place or
(06:04):
this comfort zone? How long are we sitting in that
place for? Because I think that for me is a signal.
And I know that if I, you know, if I
just generally feel like the future version of myself, if
I'm not excited about that future version of myself that's
usually assigned to me, when I need to, you know,
look beyond and think about what can I learn to adapt?
(06:25):
Because learning and adapting goes. I mean, that's a cycle.
It's a beautiful positive loop that just keeps going around
and around, And you've got to make the call when
you need to learn something new because you're paying attention
to those signals have changed, and I think that is
something that we don't talk about enough. The shelf life
of our careers, the shelf life of skills is getting
shorter and our careers are getting longer, and so the
only way to close that gap continually is by actively
(06:47):
learning and paying attention to what you are learning. So
if you don't feel as though you're learning anything, then
you're in the waiting place for too long.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
And maybe that's a signal.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I have so many friends who are like, oh, I
don't really like my job, or I'll find another job soon,
Like the timing's not quite right. What do you suggest
they kind of ask them solves or think through if
they're in this waiting place that you talk about.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
I think the most dangerous thing we can do right
now is ignore the role of learning, because if we're
not learning, we're standing still, and in this very dynamic
work environment, standing still is the equivalent to falling behind.
And so when we stop learning, I believe that we
stop expanding our voice, our ability to influence, and the
(07:33):
impact that we can have on ourselves and others. And
so I don't believe that learning is a luxury. I
believe that it is power. And we need to reposition
learning within ourselves and within the workplace because it builds
career insurance, it strengthens personal agency, and it gives us
more options for the future.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
And that is a place that we want to be.
I want to end up.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
In my own version of the future. I don't want
to end up in someone else's. And so if you
want to have a continuing voice on what your own
future of work looks like and how that plays out,
then a dedication to learning is the only way to
make that happen.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Because if we're not learning, we're not growing.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's so interesting because the three of us just had
a conversation off Mike about busy people and like people
who are busy and people who are just busy people.
It's interesting because I am guilty of probably just not
really learning and just like doing my job and going
home and coming back to work and doing my job
and going home. So how do you kind of incorporate
(08:39):
like active learning or having that mindset of always learning when.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You just have so much on your plate just doing
the work.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Well, we all are obsessed with being busy, right, And
what we don't realize is that the traditional ways of
learning have changed so dramatically even in the last five years.
So learning is not only when you're in a classroom.
Learning has listened to a podcast this one, Yeah, preferably
it's starting a new conversation. It's as simple as asking
(09:07):
one smarter question in a meeting. Think about how you
can move those micro moments into your day to day
life and shift your own version of what learning looks like.
Because learning is twenty four to seven, we just don't
necessarily attach a learning moment to a conversation. But I
think the most wonderful conversations are the moments where you
(09:30):
learn the most. And starting a new conversation with someone
who is new to your circle is also a really
incredible way to learn. So don't discount all of those
incidental moments in life, because that is where real learning happens.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think we've got to be like intentional about it too.
Like when work feels hard, it's usually because there is
that gap or if you think about any moment where
you're like, oh, this person's hard to work with or
I feel overwhelmed, etc. And the gap is usually in
your tools your mindset or your skills right and learning
what you're saying there is what fills that gap. But
I think we have to be quite intentionally about it.
(10:06):
And what you're saying am there is like the busy moments.
If I'm busy all the time and I'm overwhelmed, how
to actually build it into what I'm doing with intention
rather than just going I had a conversation we were
learning what do I actually want.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
To be learning? What would be helpful right now?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
What's really helpful is looking at the business strategy for
twenty thirty and thinking, are my learning goals aligned with
where the business is going? Because if they're not, where's
the gap that I need to fill? Because if we're
not aligned with the business or the industry in the
next five years, we always have to be asking what
is my business or my industry going to value in
(10:42):
terms of skills in the next five or ten years,
and is my learning plan aligned with where the business
is going? Because that will reveal to you exactly what
you should be in pursuit of. And I don't want
anyone showing up applying for a job in twenty thirty
with a CV from twenty twenty two women in particular,
cannot ignore the role of learning in their career and
(11:05):
their life journey because the risk is not just professional,
it's personal.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, I think the idea of thinking about learning as
problem solving and you said there, you know it's important
for the business and everything. I think it's also really
important for yourself as well. Like, Yeah, we talk about
it's a lot, and like it's my career. What do
I want out of it? What do I want to
be doing? And therefore, what skills do I need? And
how can I keep it interesting? Yeah, Like, sometimes it's
so often like blinking in the pursuit of delivering a
(11:31):
project or deliverable or goal, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
But what for and why? Like what would make it
more interesting?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
What should be interesting to all of us is if
we're really paying attention to those signals of change in
our industry, keeping a very simple eye out on the
short courses that are available on university websites, and I'm
talking about the big universities that have you know that
carry probably a disproportionate amount of value in the workplace
or across businesses. So, for example, in twenty seventeen, I
(12:01):
noticed that MIT was running a six week program on
artificial intelligence, and I thought, if MIT values that skill,
now I know that is something that I need to
be paying attention to. So I actually did a six
week program a great expense to myself on AI in
late twenty seventeen. That's insane, Yeah, totally. Yeah, Are you serious,
(12:21):
because yeah, it's like, I'm very serious.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
We all need to be paying attention to signals of change,
and the learning category is where I think the signals
show up first. That is changing because of chat, ChiPT
and LMS. But when I saw that MIT was valuing
AI back in twenty seventeen, I thought, that is something
I need to do. From that, I took myself to
another learning program. Always invest in learning. By the way,
(12:46):
I've spent more money on learning than I have on
anything else in my entire life, and I've never regretted it.
Because that led me to Singularity University at a NASA
facility in California in twenty eighteen. And then I wrote
Future Fit Yeah, because I wanted to understand how can
I help people figure out how to be an active
player in their own career and an active player in
(13:07):
the future of work whatever That looked like for people.
So I thought it was interesting though, looking back and
recognizing that it was the educational institution that was the
signal of change for me because what they valued was
clearly something that they thought was going to be of
value across the workplace.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
And that was in twenty seventeen. So, yeah, how.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Good has been able to share and use what you've
learned as well?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Yeah, because at the time three thousand US dollars was
it is still a lot of money to me and
to anyone listening, but the value in that was starting
to just blow open what might be possible if this
technology hit us all at scale. And that's the really
interesting thing about a signal if this is where signals
come into play for all of us, because sometimes our
(13:52):
own behavior can be a signal of change. So, for example,
in two thousand and eight, I was living and working
in Washington, DC. I was walking to the news bureau
and for the first time in my entire career, I
did not pick up a copy of the than newspaper
because I was looking at the news headlines on my
phone and I thought, what if ten thousand people stopped
picking up a newspaper, What if a minting people stop
(14:15):
picking up a newspaper. Here I am a journalist being
paid to produce content that as a consumer I am
not prepared.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
To pay for.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
So I was my own signal of change, and that
was the day I decided to leave journalism, to leave
an amazing career as a television news reporter and correspondent
on Capitol Hill. I was covering White House, State Department, Pentagon.
But I knew my career was going to be in
trouble when I rehearsed the future in my mind and
ran those what if scenarios. I knew that if I
(14:47):
got out of television news reporting, then I would be
probably five to eight years ahead of everyone else. But
it was only because I recognized the signal of change
and I actually accepted what was happening. It's really easy
to be in denial about what's changing around us because
we're so attached to sameness and we're addicted to our routine.
We're not all wired to be visionary. We are wired
(15:09):
for sameness. That's why we order the same coffee every
single day. Right. I challenge anyone to order a different
coffee every single day for the next seven days and
start training your brain to be more adaptable.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
What do you think is like a signal of change
that you actually see so many women in particular just
miss learning.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, it's a some day.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
Than it's brutal because you won't understand the impact it
has on you for ten years. I still today have
women emailing me saying, you insisted that I do this
program in twenty thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and it's only because
of that that I've gotten as far as I have,
or that I'm as engaged in my career. And at
(15:57):
the same time, I have people emailing me saying, I
can't believe I didn't listen to you because I went
on matt leave. And now I'm not ten behind my colleagues,
I'm fifteen years behind my colleagues because I chose to
step out of that engagement with learning, and so now
the catch up gap is more than a decade.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I see it like all the time, you're obviously preaching
into the converted here, like I love learning and I
do it myself as well a lot, not just talk
about learner and how other people should be learning. But
it will happen in like that day conversations when someone
will be like Oh, I don't even know what to say,
and I will say I am You could say X,
y Z.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
So how do you even know that? I'm like, well,
because I've read this book or did this thing over there.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
That's what I really struggle with telling myself that was
a learning opportunity. It will happen, the conversation will happen.
I'll see something, I'll read something, and then it's out
of my mind. So how do I recognize that as
a learning opportunity and that's something that I can see
that will also benefit my career?
Speaker 6 (16:54):
I think, pausing, we all have a lot coming at
us more.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah, so I think the greatest skill we can have
this year is to be decisive. Be decisive about what
kind of future you want to end up in. Do
you want an average future or do you want.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
Something that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
If you want an awesome future, you've got to slow
down and pause in moments and ask yourself. I actually
normally write this on my hand, what if what does
it mean? Why am I resisting this change? Or what
if this change is not a loss? What if it's
a gain? Like, what's the upside? What if something that's
presenting itself to me now has an upside and isn't
(17:31):
just messing with my day or like disrupting the way
I think about things. So we need to slow down
and prompt ourselves to recognize our own resistance to change
or resistance to something new, and really challenge ourselves to think, well,
what if there is something incredible that comes out of this.
What if it's a fresh start, What if it's a
new job, What if it's a new circle, new colleagues,
(17:54):
or something that can take me further. Because we're addicted
to sameness and we love routine, that's because we are
wi that way, and so our job is to interrupt
that script. In moments of sameness, many of us are
playing the same game all day long, every day for
five years in a row, and the same game is
not going to get us where we want to go.
That will not get us to a future that we
(18:15):
think is awesome. It will just be average. And you know,
that's called a probable future and it's not a disaster,
but it's not amazing, and I doubt it will be
a future that really inspires you. So if we want
to be really inspired, we have to recognize that we
need to be an active player and how change is
playing out both around us and also within us. You know,
internally we have different belief systems, values, We've got things
(18:38):
that change, and we've got to reconcile and bring alignment
to that.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I know that moment that you're talking about, m And
there's usually like two questions I ask myself, like and
it can be like you know, someone's giving you the
shits at work, or something's happening.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It can be quite small.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And the two questions I ask myself and how I
identify what I need to learn or if I have
just learned something, is what's happening for me right now?
And what do I want instead? And then you're like, okay,
well there's a clear gap there, so what am.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I going to do about it?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And it can be having a conversation with some it
can be learning something at MIT, it can be anything
on that spectrum. But if you ask us two questions
of yourself, then you know what you want to do,
what you want to focus on.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
It defines the actions.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, for people who are listening to this podcast right
now and they're like, yes, I'm in it.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I want to have those signals of change.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I want to learn if they're working in a company
that's constantly playing the same game.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
How do they break through that so they get everyone
else on board?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh, such a good question.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I think we need to balance reality with hope. Like
if you know the culture you are in is not
naturally an innovation space or a space for you to innovate,
then I think that you need to make different decisions
about your career because we all want to be on
a path of consistent growth. Otherwise, be that change, lead
that change in any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And I think also because you've empowered yourself with the
materials that you've learned, you should feel confident.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
To do that definitely.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
And I always say to people when they tell me
that there's no learning.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Budget in their workplace, because.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
I hear that all the time, Well, maybe it's not
the workplace's job to educate you for your entire career.
Take responsibility, don't buy that dress, don't buy those shoes,
and put that money into a learning budget, because that
is what is going to give your career longevity and
also give you the confidence that you can negotiate change
and you can come up against new things and new
(20:29):
opportunities fully equipped to make the most of any change
that presents itself to you.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I think there's this great saying from the Navy Seals,
and I'm sure you're familiar with it, which is, under pressure,
you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The level of your training.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, pretty much you're describing there, And no one.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Wants to sink. We always want to feel good.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
We want to feel like our job has meaning and progress.
You know, progress is very addictive, So we only make
progress when we are learning and asking ourselves those tough
questions and taking action to close those gaps in between.
The keepers stack keep us in the waiting place for
way too long.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
One of the biggest blockers I hear, especially with career
shifts or people changing jobs, etc. Is this idea that
you have to feel one hundred percent confident before you start, Like,
once I've done the course, then I'll apply for the role,
or once i have this skill, or when I'm ready
for a new job, that's when I'll start looking.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That one irks me the most.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Andrea, how do you help people take that first step
when they're waiting to feel ready.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
I don't think any of us ever feel ready for anything.
I think that courage brings clarity. So be courageous in
your stepping forward, and know that taking action is the
greatest confidence booster available to all of us, even if
it's a micro step forward. I can't tell you how
many people say to me now that I'm not author,
(21:51):
how many people say, I've always wanted to write a book,
Tell me all about it, you know. So what I
say is just start writing, Like, write five hundred words
a day, Write a hundred words a day, do anything
that gets you out of your mind, and then onto
the page. Take one micro step and try to make
a habit of it. Try to do that for half
(22:11):
an hour every morning. And you're not going to like this,
But I always say, if you want to write, the
best time to write is before everyone else is awake,
because it feels like such a sense of freedom in that.
So get up an hour earlier and just try to
bash out five hundred words. That micro step is quite
magnetic when it comes to pushing you forward to where
(22:33):
you want to go.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
God watch me churn out three books.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I was actually just thinking of.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
You could write a book, the most fun thing you'll
ever do in your life. So oh wow, I mean
writing is writing is.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
A discovery tour. That's how I look at it.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
And I think anytime you really love something, it doesn't
matter what it is, You're on this constant discovery.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
Tour about yourself.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
And that's what I love about when I think about
my own future, the questions that that brings up for me.
What am I naturally resisting versus where do I naturally
want to go? And what that friction in between? And
how do I sort of how do I sort out
that friction and explore that? So just look at every
micro movers a discovery tour of yourself.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Oh I love that, And I really resonate with what
you said because I get the same question of I've
always wanted to start my own business, and like, did
you see that?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
There was like.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Twelve months of me planning and preparing and taking micro
steps before.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It even launched. Like there's a lot that goes in
behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I'm a big believer of like testing things out,
experimenting taking another step in that direction exactly like you've described,
to then decide if you even want to be an
author or if you want to start a business totally
going or Liam.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
It's how do you turn an experiment into evidence? That's
what you want to do.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
You want to sit down and write for half an
hour every morning at five am for a week, and
if you don't like it, dump it and move on
to something else.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Because the number of.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
People who say to me, I've been writing a book
for five years, and I just say stop, stop, you're
obviously years. Yeah, I say, you obviously don't want to
write a book if it's taking you that long.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Now, wow.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
I can speak from the benefit of experience because as
a journalist I was on deadline every day for seventeen years.
If it's taking you too long to do something, maybe
just let it go and move on to something else,
or you know, come back to it five years later.
But do what if you can to shift from an experiment,
turn an experiment into evidence and take that as a
data point.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And it doesn't even have to be as full as
like launching your business or writing a book. Right Like,
we could be talking about, Hey, I'm really interested in
becoming an interior designer. Maybe I'm going to talk to
someone who's an interior designer and that can be my
first step. And I'm just starting to chip away it
from there.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
You don't have to go all in.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I think it's really important to take a gradual approach,
especially if you're transitioning from one career to another.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Try it as a side hustle.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Because I feel like a lot of people see the
end product and it's beautiful and shining, and they're like, oh,
I can also write a book, and then you have
to be like, no, you know, I actually wrote to
this right, Like it actually took time.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, do you know what? I wish more people talked
about the process and the leader. Yes, rather than going,
oh my gosh, you've written a book, You've launched a business,
You've got this amazing job, Let's talk about the twelve
months before then, where I was preparing myself or chipping
away or what I was doing. There's this great quote
in your book that was you can't outsource your personal development.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
That sounds about right.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
When I read that, I was like I had to
read it three times.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
You cannot outsource your own career. You can't outsource your
own personal.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
What would you want to Yeah, who wants to do?
I don't want to leave my career in the hands
of someone else. I saved for a year to send
myself to Harvard for a week. I had a twenty
five thousand dollars a week at Harvard, which also had
an enormous impact on my life. The payoff is every
day of my life after that program finished, because I'm
still in touch on a WhatsApp group with the alumni.
And this is the great thing about when we talk
(25:43):
about learning social learning. Start a What's App group with
five people and ask them to invite five other people
and have clear rules of engagement. Never underestimate the power
of an alumni in whatever form that might take, whether
it's from an executive education program or whether it's from
a group of girlfriends that or just want to lift
one another. Always be looking at what the options are
(26:04):
to make yourself further down that discovery tour of who
you are.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I feel like I should put a big, massive asterisk
on this though, because this might be too high pay
personality's vibing here.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
I might be just letting you go that story right now.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
What can we do to make it feel more manageable
in the day to day when people are feeling busy
and they're like, I've got all these other things on.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I don't really know where I'm starting. What can I do?
Speaker 6 (26:33):
First of all, value it?
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yeah, First of all, be that person who shows up
for a job interview in twenty thirty with the CB
that's aligned with twenty thirty. Be that person don't show
up with the twenty twenty two resume. And then do
things like habitstack like when you're working out, listen to
a podcast, do anything that allows you to be involved
in your learning journey.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
That could be small, it could be big, but get started.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I had this recently. All was actually last year.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I was like, oh, I don't have time to read,
and I love to read, and so I shared this
with you before I buy a physical book and also
download it on my phone, and so whenever there's a moment,
then I'm able to keep going.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, so there's no barriers in the way. Well you're describing.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
I am now even reading five pages at a time.
So if I'm doom scrolling, I'll catch myself and say,
wouldn't this just be in much better use of.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Time when I was reading.
Speaker 6 (27:25):
Considering the number of books on my desk.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
At the moment, it's so hard getting out of that
drain run scroll, though so bad, But I just feels
so good.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
But I don't want my brain to I don't want
to go backwards. I'm really concerned about what doom scrolling
does to my attention span, so I try to replace
those kinds of habits. What I do is carry a
book with me now, so when I'm waiting for an uber,
I'm less tempted to doom scroll, and I'm more tempted
(27:52):
to pick up and even just to five pages at
a time.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Micro learning it's a real thing.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Who knew?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I knew?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Oh gosh, so Andrea. We like to wrap up with
what we call our out, so em and I do.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
At the end of that, we're kicking you out. Okay,
we're not kicking useful thing.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yes, So we want to leave everyone with a one
useful thing that they can go away in action.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Anyone who's going I want more control? I do want
to learn. What can I do here?
Speaker 5 (28:21):
What is a signal of change that you can start
tracking today? Think about what that looks like. What is
anything that is going to reshape the way you work
or you live? Track that signal and ask yourself, what
does that signal request of me today?
Speaker 6 (28:39):
What's the opportunity if I follow.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
It and make decisions around that, or what is the
cost if I don't?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
How can I take action on that?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
What's the cost of ignoring a signal of change versus
what is the advantage that gives me if I start
paying attention to that? Now, if you can recognize signals
of change, you can be five years ahead of your
industry and everyone else, and hopefully you're bringing other people
with you you along the way.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
There's a tree analogy in your book.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
The Adaptive Cycle, Jamie Miller. I actually can't really do
it justice, but it's a remarkable way to look at
how we can adapt. And when you think about nature,
you think about a leaf falling off a tree. It
absorbs into the soil and then turns into something else.
And so we need to look at ourselves in our
careers in that form of an adaptive cycle, like look
(29:30):
at it really draw a parallel between nature and the
way that we work and live. And so how do
we renew, regenerate, release what we no longer need in
order to move forward, Recognizing what is no longer fit
for purpose and thinking about what do we need to
let go of in order to make room for what's
coming next. We need to clear space in our brains
(29:53):
from what's coming next. So call it unlearning, call it release,
and call it whatever you will. But that's a really
simple four step kind of principle that I use when
I think about my career and how I want to
approach life in general.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So I might have to let go of a little
bit of doom scrolling, just a.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Little bit it.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yes, please, I just know that whoever's listening to this podcast,
even if they're on a walk, they'll just be like
scribbling do notes now.
Speaker 6 (30:18):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Thank you, And that is another episode of BIZ in
the books. Hopefully you're walking away with some fresh perspectives
and actionable ideas. There are more episodes heading your way,
so please stay subscribed.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
And make sure you have those notifications turned on. If
you found this.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Helpful, don't be shy share our episodes with your coworkers
or your friends, anyone you think will benefit from BIZ.
You can also catch us on Instagram. We are at
Biz by Mamma Mia. Bizz is created by Sophie Campbell
with audio productions from Leah Porge's We Will See You Soon.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
m Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
honestly made me rethink my entire approach to career growth.
Lisa and I chatted with Andrea Clark about why waiting
until you feel ready to make a career move is
basically setting yourself up to never actually do it. Andrea
(00:33):
has this brilliant concept called the mutual value exchange that
helps you figure out when it's actually time to move
on from a job versus when you're just having a moment.
If you've been sitting in what she calls the waiting place,
or you know you need to upskill but keep putting
it off, this conversation will give you the push you need.
Sometimes courage really does bring clarity. I hope you love
(00:55):
it as much as we did talking to Andrea. Hello
and welcome to BIZ Your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I'm M Verner and I'm Lesally.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So am today I want to ask you when was
the last time you looked at a work challenge and
thought this is a chance to grow instead of oh why.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Is this happening?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You know, me well enough to know exactly what the
answer is. It's been like years since I've said this
is a time to grow, a chance to grow.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
You didn't get a T shirt with them together.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Everything's a learning opportunity. I haven't said that in a really,
really long time. I feel like I always avoid doing
that because I'm so scared of slipping into that workaholic
mode We've talked about before, that hustle culture, and I
just completely go the opposite way.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, and I don't think like learning and hustle culture
have to go together. But in a world where industries
and roles can shift totally overnight, staying in death will
feels more like survival and being relevant as well. The
people thriving aren't necessarily the smartest as well. I think
they're the ones who see every curveball as a learning opportunity,
which sounds so forced, but a moment ago, I actually
(02:02):
learned something here and I'm better for it, Which.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is also why I am very, very excited for an
episode today because we actually have a guest on this episode.
It's a little bit rare for us, but we have
a guest in here in the studio. Least tell me
about our guest.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So Andrew Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast.
She has broadcast in war zones, and she's also written
a couple of books about future ready careers.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Just a small career, just a couple of things there.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
She doesn't believe in waiting until you're ready to grow,
which I love about her, and she talks a lot
about this in this episode today. She says, the most
powerful thing you can do is take action before you
feel one hundred percent confident.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So if you are ready to turn I mean, according
to Ana, you don't even have to be ready, if
you're ready to turn every challenge into a growth opportunity
and build learning into your career. This conversation is for you, Andrea,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So we've all had that moment where you're in a
job or even a whole career path and from the
outside everything looks fine. You're ticking the boxes, feedbas good salary, steady,
but something just feels I don't know it off yeah,
like you're running out of energy for it or worse,
I think you're head a bad point now. If you're
starting to dread Monday.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Mornings for Sunday scaries.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, for Sunday scaries.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
So how do you know when that feeling is actually
a sign or a signal? As Andrea likes to say
that you should make a change and not just push through.
And what if nothing's actually wrong, You're just having a moment,
Because we all have moments, Andrea, what are the real
signs someone should be watching for that say like it's
time to rethink this? And what are people often ignore
until it's too late.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
The first sign is the mutual value exchange. Now, a
mutual value exchange is that balance that you have with
an employer. Now I get paid to come to work,
I come to work, I deliver the work. That's a
mutual value exchange. Now, when that has been out of
balance for too long, that's usually when we feel like
(03:58):
something needs to change here.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
I need a bit of a rethink.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
So unless there's something to address with your employer, it
might be something in, it might be something external. But
I would encourage everyone listening to think about has this
mutual value to exchange run its course in some form?
And if it has, what then is my next step?
Do I have to address something within myself or is
(04:21):
it something that I have to address in the workplace
makes sense?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah, how would you know that if it's run its course?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
I think that's a gut feeling. I think we've all
stayed in relationships for.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
Too long, or we know they've been guilty.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
It's something that only you can make that call on.
It's a gut feel, it's instinct, it's intuition, call it
whatever you want to call it. But we all know
when something is run its course. And I feel that
it's very important to especially from a workplace or a job,
to exit on a high, leave when it's good, leave
(04:55):
something on the table for someone else. I think that's
a very generous way to look at a career. And
I worked in media for many years, and I make
this observation other people and myself.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
How long am I.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Willing to stay on this sort of career or job
high for or is there an opportunity for me to
step aside, move on to something else and be generous
to leave something on the table.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah? Is this comfort like always a red flag? Though?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Like, sometimes I feel like we are uncomfortable through change,
or we're uncomfortable when we're learning something for the first time.
And sometimes people will go well, stuff that like I'm out,
this is too hard. Where's that line where you're actually
learning versus like full redplace, like the middle ground.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
Yeah, you've got to feel stretched, right.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
We can sit in this comfort zone and I've got
a friend Lisa Stevenson who calls it the waiting place.
Like we can sit in this waiting place for an
extended period of time. It's up to us to demonstrate
the agency to move out and to find something new.
So I think the balance again comes back to how
often do I feel like I'm stretching myself or do
I feel like I'm sitting in the waiting place or
(06:04):
this comfort zone? How long are we sitting in that
place for? Because I think that for me is a signal.
And I know that if I, you know, if I
just generally feel like the future version of myself, if
I'm not excited about that future version of myself that's
usually assigned to me, when I need to, you know,
look beyond and think about what can I learn to adapt?
(06:25):
Because learning and adapting goes. I mean, that's a cycle.
It's a beautiful positive loop that just keeps going around
and around, And you've got to make the call when
you need to learn something new because you're paying attention
to those signals have changed, and I think that is
something that we don't talk about enough. The shelf life
of our careers, the shelf life of skills is getting
shorter and our careers are getting longer, and so the
only way to close that gap continually is by actively
(06:47):
learning and paying attention to what you are learning. So
if you don't feel as though you're learning anything, then
you're in the waiting place for too long.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
And maybe that's a signal.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I have so many friends who are like, oh, I
don't really like my job, or I'll find another job soon,
Like the timing's not quite right. What do you suggest
they kind of ask them solves or think through if
they're in this waiting place that you talk about.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
I think the most dangerous thing we can do right
now is ignore the role of learning, because if we're
not learning, we're standing still, and in this very dynamic
work environment, standing still is the equivalent to falling behind.
And so when we stop learning, I believe that we
stop expanding our voice, our ability to influence, and the
(07:33):
impact that we can have on ourselves and others. And
so I don't believe that learning is a luxury. I
believe that it is power. And we need to reposition
learning within ourselves and within the workplace because it builds
career insurance, it strengthens personal agency, and it gives us
more options for the future.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
And that is a place that we want to be.
I want to end up.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
In my own version of the future. I don't want
to end up in someone else's. And so if you
want to have a continuing voice on what your own
future of work looks like and how that plays out,
then a dedication to learning is the only way to
make that happen.
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Because if we're not learning, we're not growing.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's so interesting because the three of us just had
a conversation off Mike about busy people and like people
who are busy and people who are just busy people.
It's interesting because I am guilty of probably just not
really learning and just like doing my job and going
home and coming back to work and doing my job
and going home. So how do you kind of incorporate
(08:39):
like active learning or having that mindset of always learning when.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You just have so much on your plate just doing
the work.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Well, we all are obsessed with being busy, right, And
what we don't realize is that the traditional ways of
learning have changed so dramatically even in the last five years.
So learning is not only when you're in a classroom.
Learning has listened to a podcast this one, Yeah, preferably
it's starting a new conversation. It's as simple as asking
(09:07):
one smarter question in a meeting. Think about how you
can move those micro moments into your day to day
life and shift your own version of what learning looks like.
Because learning is twenty four to seven, we just don't
necessarily attach a learning moment to a conversation. But I
think the most wonderful conversations are the moments where you
(09:30):
learn the most. And starting a new conversation with someone
who is new to your circle is also a really
incredible way to learn. So don't discount all of those
incidental moments in life, because that is where real learning happens.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think we've got to be like intentional about it too.
Like when work feels hard, it's usually because there is
that gap or if you think about any moment where
you're like, oh, this person's hard to work with or
I feel overwhelmed, etc. And the gap is usually in
your tools your mindset or your skills right and learning
what you're saying there is what fills that gap. But
I think we have to be quite intentionally about it.
(10:06):
And what you're saying am there is like the busy moments.
If I'm busy all the time and I'm overwhelmed, how
to actually build it into what I'm doing with intention
rather than just going I had a conversation we were
learning what do I actually want.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
To be learning? What would be helpful right now?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
What's really helpful is looking at the business strategy for
twenty thirty and thinking, are my learning goals aligned with
where the business is going? Because if they're not, where's
the gap that I need to fill? Because if we're
not aligned with the business or the industry in the
next five years, we always have to be asking what
is my business or my industry going to value in
(10:42):
terms of skills in the next five or ten years,
and is my learning plan aligned with where the business
is going? Because that will reveal to you exactly what
you should be in pursuit of. And I don't want
anyone showing up applying for a job in twenty thirty
with a CV from twenty twenty two women in particular,
cannot ignore the role of learning in their career and
(11:05):
their life journey because the risk is not just professional,
it's personal.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, I think the idea of thinking about learning as
problem solving and you said there, you know it's important
for the business and everything. I think it's also really
important for yourself as well. Like, Yeah, we talk about
it's a lot, and like it's my career. What do
I want out of it? What do I want to
be doing? And therefore, what skills do I need? And
how can I keep it interesting? Yeah, Like, sometimes it's
so often like blinking in the pursuit of delivering a
(11:31):
project or deliverable or goal, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
But what for and why? Like what would make it
more interesting?
Speaker 5 (11:37):
What should be interesting to all of us is if
we're really paying attention to those signals of change in
our industry, keeping a very simple eye out on the
short courses that are available on university websites, and I'm
talking about the big universities that have you know that
carry probably a disproportionate amount of value in the workplace
or across businesses. So, for example, in twenty seventeen, I
(12:01):
noticed that MIT was running a six week program on
artificial intelligence, and I thought, if MIT values that skill,
now I know that is something that I need to
be paying attention to. So I actually did a six
week program a great expense to myself on AI in
late twenty seventeen. That's insane, Yeah, totally. Yeah, Are you serious,
(12:21):
because yeah, it's like, I'm very serious.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
We all need to be paying attention to signals of change,
and the learning category is where I think the signals
show up first. That is changing because of chat, ChiPT
and LMS. But when I saw that MIT was valuing
AI back in twenty seventeen, I thought, that is something
I need to do. From that, I took myself to
another learning program. Always invest in learning. By the way,
(12:46):
I've spent more money on learning than I have on
anything else in my entire life, and I've never regretted it.
Because that led me to Singularity University at a NASA
facility in California in twenty eighteen. And then I wrote
Future Fit Yeah, because I wanted to understand how can
I help people figure out how to be an active
player in their own career and an active player in
(13:07):
the future of work whatever That looked like for people.
So I thought it was interesting though, looking back and
recognizing that it was the educational institution that was the
signal of change for me because what they valued was
clearly something that they thought was going to be of
value across the workplace.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
And that was in twenty seventeen. So, yeah, how.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Good has been able to share and use what you've
learned as well?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Yeah, because at the time three thousand US dollars was
it is still a lot of money to me and
to anyone listening, but the value in that was starting
to just blow open what might be possible if this
technology hit us all at scale. And that's the really
interesting thing about a signal if this is where signals
come into play for all of us, because sometimes our
(13:52):
own behavior can be a signal of change. So, for example,
in two thousand and eight, I was living and working
in Washington, DC. I was walking to the news bureau
and for the first time in my entire career, I
did not pick up a copy of the than newspaper
because I was looking at the news headlines on my
phone and I thought, what if ten thousand people stopped
picking up a newspaper, What if a minting people stop
(14:15):
picking up a newspaper. Here I am a journalist being
paid to produce content that as a consumer I am
not prepared.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
To pay for.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
So I was my own signal of change, and that
was the day I decided to leave journalism, to leave
an amazing career as a television news reporter and correspondent
on Capitol Hill. I was covering White House, State Department, Pentagon.
But I knew my career was going to be in
trouble when I rehearsed the future in my mind and
ran those what if scenarios. I knew that if I
(14:47):
got out of television news reporting, then I would be
probably five to eight years ahead of everyone else. But
it was only because I recognized the signal of change
and I actually accepted what was happening. It's really easy
to be in denial about what's changing around us because
we're so attached to sameness and we're addicted to our routine.
We're not all wired to be visionary. We are wired
(15:09):
for sameness. That's why we order the same coffee every
single day. Right. I challenge anyone to order a different
coffee every single day for the next seven days and
start training your brain to be more adaptable.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
What do you think is like a signal of change
that you actually see so many women in particular just
miss learning.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, it's a some day.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
Than it's brutal because you won't understand the impact it
has on you for ten years. I still today have
women emailing me saying, you insisted that I do this
program in twenty thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and it's only because
of that that I've gotten as far as I have,
or that I'm as engaged in my career. And at
(15:57):
the same time, I have people emailing me saying, I
can't believe I didn't listen to you because I went
on matt leave. And now I'm not ten behind my colleagues,
I'm fifteen years behind my colleagues because I chose to
step out of that engagement with learning, and so now
the catch up gap is more than a decade.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
I see it like all the time, you're obviously preaching
into the converted here, like I love learning and I
do it myself as well a lot, not just talk
about learner and how other people should be learning. But
it will happen in like that day conversations when someone
will be like Oh, I don't even know what to say,
and I will say I am You could say X,
y Z.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
So how do you even know that? I'm like, well,
because I've read this book or did this thing over there.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
That's what I really struggle with telling myself that was
a learning opportunity. It will happen, the conversation will happen.
I'll see something, I'll read something, and then it's out
of my mind. So how do I recognize that as
a learning opportunity and that's something that I can see
that will also benefit my career?
Speaker 6 (16:54):
I think, pausing, we all have a lot coming at
us more.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah, so I think the greatest skill we can have
this year is to be decisive. Be decisive about what
kind of future you want to end up in. Do
you want an average future or do you want.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
Something that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
If you want an awesome future, you've got to slow
down and pause in moments and ask yourself. I actually
normally write this on my hand, what if what does
it mean? Why am I resisting this change? Or what
if this change is not a loss? What if it's
a gain? Like, what's the upside? What if something that's
presenting itself to me now has an upside and isn't
(17:31):
just messing with my day or like disrupting the way
I think about things. So we need to slow down
and prompt ourselves to recognize our own resistance to change
or resistance to something new, and really challenge ourselves to think, well,
what if there is something incredible that comes out of this.
What if it's a fresh start, What if it's a
new job, What if it's a new circle, new colleagues,
(17:54):
or something that can take me further. Because we're addicted
to sameness and we love routine, that's because we are
wi that way, and so our job is to interrupt
that script. In moments of sameness, many of us are
playing the same game all day long, every day for
five years in a row, and the same game is
not going to get us where we want to go.
That will not get us to a future that we
(18:15):
think is awesome. It will just be average. And you know,
that's called a probable future and it's not a disaster,
but it's not amazing, and I doubt it will be
a future that really inspires you. So if we want
to be really inspired, we have to recognize that we
need to be an active player and how change is
playing out both around us and also within us. You know,
internally we have different belief systems, values, We've got things
(18:38):
that change, and we've got to reconcile and bring alignment
to that.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I know that moment that you're talking about, m And
there's usually like two questions I ask myself, like and
it can be like you know, someone's giving you the
shits at work, or something's happening.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It can be quite small.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And the two questions I ask myself and how I
identify what I need to learn or if I have
just learned something, is what's happening for me right now?
And what do I want instead? And then you're like, okay,
well there's a clear gap there, so what am.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I going to do about it?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And it can be having a conversation with some it
can be learning something at MIT, it can be anything
on that spectrum. But if you ask us two questions
of yourself, then you know what you want to do,
what you want to focus on.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
It defines the actions.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, for people who are listening to this podcast right
now and they're like, yes, I'm in it.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I want to have those signals of change.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I want to learn if they're working in a company
that's constantly playing the same game.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
How do they break through that so they get everyone
else on board?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh, such a good question.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I think we need to balance reality with hope. Like
if you know the culture you are in is not
naturally an innovation space or a space for you to innovate,
then I think that you need to make different decisions
about your career because we all want to be on
a path of consistent growth. Otherwise, be that change, lead
that change in any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And I think also because you've empowered yourself with the
materials that you've learned, you should feel confident.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
To do that definitely.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
And I always say to people when they tell me
that there's no learning.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Budget in their workplace, because.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
I hear that all the time, Well, maybe it's not
the workplace's job to educate you for your entire career.
Take responsibility, don't buy that dress, don't buy those shoes,
and put that money into a learning budget, because that
is what is going to give your career longevity and
also give you the confidence that you can negotiate change
and you can come up against new things and new
(20:29):
opportunities fully equipped to make the most of any change
that presents itself to you.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I think there's this great saying from the Navy Seals,
and I'm sure you're familiar with it, which is, under pressure,
you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
The level of your training.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, pretty much you're describing there, And no one.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Wants to sink. We always want to feel good.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
We want to feel like our job has meaning and progress.
You know, progress is very addictive, So we only make
progress when we are learning and asking ourselves those tough
questions and taking action to close those gaps in between.
The keepers stack keep us in the waiting place for
way too long.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
One of the biggest blockers I hear, especially with career
shifts or people changing jobs, etc. Is this idea that
you have to feel one hundred percent confident before you start, Like,
once I've done the course, then I'll apply for the role,
or once i have this skill, or when I'm ready
for a new job, that's when I'll start looking.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That one irks me the most.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Andrea, how do you help people take that first step
when they're waiting to feel ready.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
I don't think any of us ever feel ready for anything.
I think that courage brings clarity. So be courageous in
your stepping forward, and know that taking action is the
greatest confidence booster available to all of us, even if
it's a micro step forward. I can't tell you how
many people say to me now that I'm not author,
(21:51):
how many people say, I've always wanted to write a book,
Tell me all about it, you know. So what I
say is just start writing, Like, write five hundred words
a day, Write a hundred words a day, do anything
that gets you out of your mind, and then onto
the page. Take one micro step and try to make
a habit of it. Try to do that for half
(22:11):
an hour every morning. And you're not going to like this,
But I always say, if you want to write, the
best time to write is before everyone else is awake,
because it feels like such a sense of freedom in that.
So get up an hour earlier and just try to
bash out five hundred words. That micro step is quite
magnetic when it comes to pushing you forward to where
(22:33):
you want to go.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
God watch me churn out three books.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I was actually just thinking of.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
You could write a book, the most fun thing you'll
ever do in your life. So oh wow, I mean
writing is writing is.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
A discovery tour. That's how I look at it.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
And I think anytime you really love something, it doesn't
matter what it is, You're on this constant discovery.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
Tour about yourself.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
And that's what I love about when I think about
my own future, the questions that that brings up for me.
What am I naturally resisting versus where do I naturally
want to go? And what that friction in between? And
how do I sort of how do I sort out
that friction and explore that? So just look at every
micro movers a discovery tour of yourself.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Oh I love that, And I really resonate with what
you said because I get the same question of I've
always wanted to start my own business, and like, did
you see that?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
There was like.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Twelve months of me planning and preparing and taking micro
steps before.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It even launched. Like there's a lot that goes in
behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I'm a big believer of like testing things out,
experimenting taking another step in that direction exactly like you've described,
to then decide if you even want to be an
author or if you want to start a business totally
going or Liam.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
It's how do you turn an experiment into evidence? That's
what you want to do.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
You want to sit down and write for half an
hour every morning at five am for a week, and
if you don't like it, dump it and move on
to something else.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Because the number of.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
People who say to me, I've been writing a book
for five years, and I just say stop, stop, you're
obviously years. Yeah, I say, you obviously don't want to
write a book if it's taking you that long.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Now, wow.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
I can speak from the benefit of experience because as
a journalist I was on deadline every day for seventeen years.
If it's taking you too long to do something, maybe
just let it go and move on to something else,
or you know, come back to it five years later.
But do what if you can to shift from an experiment,
turn an experiment into evidence and take that as a
data point.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And it doesn't even have to be as full as
like launching your business or writing a book. Right Like,
we could be talking about, Hey, I'm really interested in
becoming an interior designer. Maybe I'm going to talk to
someone who's an interior designer and that can be my
first step. And I'm just starting to chip away it
from there.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
You don't have to go all in.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I think it's really important to take a gradual approach,
especially if you're transitioning from one career to another.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
Try it as a side hustle.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Because I feel like a lot of people see the
end product and it's beautiful and shining, and they're like, oh,
I can also write a book, and then you have
to be like, no, you know, I actually wrote to
this right, Like it actually took time.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, do you know what? I wish more people talked
about the process and the leader. Yes, rather than going,
oh my gosh, you've written a book, You've launched a business,
You've got this amazing job, Let's talk about the twelve
months before then, where I was preparing myself or chipping
away or what I was doing. There's this great quote
in your book that was you can't outsource your personal development.
Speaker 6 (25:12):
That sounds about right.
Speaker 5 (25:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
When I read that, I was like I had to
read it three times.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
You cannot outsource your own career. You can't outsource your
own personal.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
What would you want to Yeah, who wants to do?
I don't want to leave my career in the hands
of someone else. I saved for a year to send
myself to Harvard for a week. I had a twenty
five thousand dollars a week at Harvard, which also had
an enormous impact on my life. The payoff is every
day of my life after that program finished, because I'm
still in touch on a WhatsApp group with the alumni.
And this is the great thing about when we talk
(25:43):
about learning social learning. Start a What's App group with
five people and ask them to invite five other people
and have clear rules of engagement. Never underestimate the power
of an alumni in whatever form that might take, whether
it's from an executive education program or whether it's from
a group of girlfriends that or just want to lift
one another. Always be looking at what the options are
(26:04):
to make yourself further down that discovery tour of who
you are.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I feel like I should put a big, massive asterisk
on this though, because this might be too high pay
personality's vibing here.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
I might be just letting you go that story right now.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
What can we do to make it feel more manageable
in the day to day when people are feeling busy
and they're like, I've got all these other things on.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I don't really know where I'm starting. What can I do?
Speaker 6 (26:33):
First of all, value it?
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yeah, First of all, be that person who shows up
for a job interview in twenty thirty with the CB
that's aligned with twenty thirty. Be that person don't show
up with the twenty twenty two resume. And then do
things like habitstack like when you're working out, listen to
a podcast, do anything that allows you to be involved
in your learning journey.
Speaker 6 (26:55):
That could be small, it could be big, but get started.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I had this recently. All was actually last year.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I was like, oh, I don't have time to read,
and I love to read, and so I shared this
with you before I buy a physical book and also
download it on my phone, and so whenever there's a moment,
then I'm able to keep going.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, so there's no barriers in the way. Well you're describing.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
I am now even reading five pages at a time.
So if I'm doom scrolling, I'll catch myself and say,
wouldn't this just be in much better use of.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Time when I was reading.
Speaker 6 (27:25):
Considering the number of books on my desk.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
At the moment, it's so hard getting out of that
drain run scroll, though so bad, But I just feels
so good.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
But I don't want my brain to I don't want
to go backwards. I'm really concerned about what doom scrolling
does to my attention span, so I try to replace
those kinds of habits. What I do is carry a
book with me now, so when I'm waiting for an uber,
I'm less tempted to doom scroll, and I'm more tempted
(27:52):
to pick up and even just to five pages at
a time.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Micro learning it's a real thing.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Who knew?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I knew?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Oh gosh, so Andrea. We like to wrap up with
what we call our out, so em and I do.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
At the end of that, we're kicking you out. Okay,
we're not kicking useful thing.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yes, So we want to leave everyone with a one
useful thing that they can go away in action.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Anyone who's going I want more control? I do want
to learn. What can I do here?
Speaker 5 (28:21):
What is a signal of change that you can start
tracking today? Think about what that looks like. What is
anything that is going to reshape the way you work
or you live? Track that signal and ask yourself, what
does that signal request of me today?
Speaker 6 (28:39):
What's the opportunity if I follow.
Speaker 5 (28:43):
It and make decisions around that, or what is the
cost if I don't?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
How can I take action on that?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
What's the cost of ignoring a signal of change versus
what is the advantage that gives me if I start
paying attention to that? Now, if you can recognize signals
of change, you can be five years ahead of your
industry and everyone else, and hopefully you're bringing other people
with you you along the way.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
There's a tree analogy in your book.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
The Adaptive Cycle, Jamie Miller. I actually can't really do
it justice, but it's a remarkable way to look at
how we can adapt. And when you think about nature,
you think about a leaf falling off a tree. It
absorbs into the soil and then turns into something else.
And so we need to look at ourselves in our
careers in that form of an adaptive cycle, like look
(29:30):
at it really draw a parallel between nature and the
way that we work and live. And so how do
we renew, regenerate, release what we no longer need in
order to move forward, Recognizing what is no longer fit
for purpose and thinking about what do we need to
let go of in order to make room for what's
coming next. We need to clear space in our brains
(29:53):
from what's coming next. So call it unlearning, call it release,
and call it whatever you will. But that's a really
simple four step kind of principle that I use when
I think about my career and how I want to
approach life in general.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So I might have to let go of a little
bit of doom scrolling, just a.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Little bit it.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yes, please, I just know that whoever's listening to this podcast,
even if they're on a walk, they'll just be like
scribbling do notes now.
Speaker 6 (30:18):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Thank you, And that is another episode of BIZ in
the books. Hopefully you're walking away with some fresh perspectives
and actionable ideas. There are more episodes heading your way,
so please stay subscribed.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
And make sure you have those notifications turned on. If
you found this.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Helpful, don't be shy share our episodes with your coworkers
or your friends, anyone you think will benefit from BIZ.
You can also catch us on Instagram. We are at
Biz by Mamma Mia. Bizz is created by Sophie Campbell
with audio productions from Leah Porge's We Will See You Soon.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
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