August 4, 2025 • 31 mins
Ever suggest something new at work only to hear "that's just how we do things here" and watch the energy completely deflate? Yeah, we've all been there. This week, we're chatting with Wade Kingsley about breaking free from status quo thinking and actually getting your ideas heard without being shut down or laughed at (been there too).
Wade breaks down why most workplaces are set up to reward playing it safe, how to identify whether you're a Dreamer, Doer, or Doubter on your team, and the genius strategy of testing ideas in kitchen conversations before you pitch them to the boss. Plus, we dive into why creativity isn't about having the most artistic job - it's about getting curious and asking "but what if we tried this instead?" when everyone else just accepts the way things are.
What you'll learn:
- The Three Creative Types and why your team needs all of them (spoiler: it's not just about the big idea people)
- Why you should never pitch your brilliant idea to the boss first - and who to talk to instead
- The 'Five Whys' technique for getting to the real problem (not just what's on the surface)
- How to frame risky ideas as "experiments" so people actually want to try them
- The art of separating brainstorming from reality-checking so ideas don't get killed instantly
- How to build creative confidence even when you've been shot down before
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
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GUEST: Wade Kingsley
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and
burn them here. You know that feeling when you're in
a meeting and someone suggests something new and then there's
just this really long pause, like everyone's thinking that's interesting,
but and then someone inevitably says, well, that's just not
how we're doing things here, and suddenly the energy just deflates.
(00:35):
I used to think that this was just work life,
that some workplaces were innovative and some just weren't. But
what I realized is that creativity isn't about having the
most artistic job or working in the coolest startup. It's
actually about how we approach problems. And the thing is
we're all capable of it, we just need permission to
think differently. Today, Lisa's conversation with Wade really opened my
(00:58):
eyes to how much of this we've always done it
this way thinking is actually holding us back from solutions
that are right there. And the good years is that
you don't need to be the boss to start shifting it.
So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You know, when someone says that's just how we do
things here, and the conversation kind of ends before it begins.
It comes up all the time, whether it's about meetings,
decision making, or who gets to say that. Thinking can
really hold teams back, which is why we've bought in
Wade Kingsley today. He's the creative coach. So Wade helps
teams get unstuck from exactly this kind of thinking, whether
(01:37):
it's shifting old habits, building curiosity or asking better questions.
He's all about helping people look at problems differently. Have
I missed anything, Wade?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
No, you've done that.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, Hi, Lace, welcome, thank you. So what we're getting
into today like this is not about big, flashy ideas
or throwing out the rule book entirely. It's about small
shifts and how we solve problems and also giving ourselves
per mission to try something new. So if you're someone
who likes to ask could we do this better? Or
why are we even doing it like this? You'll want
(02:08):
to stick around. Let's get into it, Wade. So I
remember working on a campaign launched years ago and I
suggested a couple of new approaches and someone literally laughed
at me in the meeting and they said, yeah, yeah,
good luck with that. That is never going to happen,
and I don't think it was even meant to be rude,
but it was just accepted and that really stuck with
me that moment. So where do you think this default
(02:30):
mindset comes from? Is it fear, is it habit or
is it just the way that workplaces and teams are wired.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's a sprinkling from all of the above, I think,
because depending on the culture, the management, the people, and
the team, what I find is it's never.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Usually about a shortage of ideas.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I think most people in organizations have ways they can
fix problems. They understand how to solve a customer problem
or an internal problem. It's the culture and the structure
of the business. Is it set up to allow new
ideas to come in? And if you think about it,
most organizations reward outcomes, so they reward success. So did
(03:06):
we sell enough? Are we hitting budget? Have we achieved
our goal? Are we shipping this many product?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Not?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Many businesses reward risk. And when you think about that
sort of notion of rewarding risk, what is incumbent in
most organizations is a desire to keep the status quo.
Because everyone knows what the status quo looks like. We
know how to do it, we're going to get remunerated
or rewarded based on it. So the incentive to change
to do something different doesn't actually exist in the framework
(03:35):
of the business. So a lot of the businesses that
I do work with, a lot of it starts with, oh,
we need to come up with some ideas, which is great.
But the first place I go is, is this a
culture that rewards risk? Is someone's head going to be
bitten off for suggesting something, or are people going to
judge it too soon? Are they going to say things like, well,
that's great, but that'll never work, or we tried that
(03:55):
once before. So mindset is one part of it, but
mindset is an outcome for the structure and framework and
culture of the business, and it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Can so easily be shut down. That situation I was
telling you about being laughed at. I mean, I wasn't
going to recommend a new idea for at least another
six or twelve months and until I got my confidence
back in a different situation.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And the scars remain, and I think that's really important.
Brene Brown talks about the creative scar, and the creative
scar is when you're young, someone tells you you either
are creative or you're not creative. And it could be
just this micro moment. It could be just once when
you showed someone a picture when you were four. It
could be handing in some homework or working on a
group assignment. But usually in childhood is where it starts.
(04:38):
And it's called a scar because we remember it, like
we can look at the scar and go, that's right.
Someone told me I can't. And that's the same in
work environment. And that's the contrast I think with businesses
that don't reward risk, they reward outcome. If you reward outcome,
it's pretty clear what you're going to do and where
you're going. And we don't like risk in general terms,
like risk is something we feel like even saying the
word out loud sends the hairs on the back of
(04:59):
the neck up for some people.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We change.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I don't like change, yeah, And I think it's about
kind of compartmentalizing the risk. No one wants to take
a risk that's going to lose a business a million bucks,
and that would be an unacceptable risk. But an acceptable
risk is we always do this process the same way.
What would happen if we change one step of the process.
You don't have to change every single thing all at once,
but maybe you just change one thing. Yeah, because if
it fails, we're okay with that failing because we already
(05:22):
know we can go back to the way we did it.
But you know, the appetite for risk is one thing.
But I'm always curious about businesses that actually decide to
say risk is the most important thing we do, or
we need to change the rules just because we want
to change the rules.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I think that's really interesting because one person can say that,
And I'm kind of drawing on my experience here being
a leader and being in an organization where I was
trying to create change and going into these meetings or
these brainstorms, there'd be a black cat yep, and I'd
be like, oh, not you again, Like really, can we
just think of these ideas and actually think about how
to put them in motion, not think of all the
(05:58):
ways they aren't going to work?
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I know you've spoken to me before about how there's
almost like these work types around dreamers, doers, and doubt
as how you work with organizations on that. Can you
share a little bit more about that.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
One one of the things I do for my job
is I look at evidence based research, and I try
and translate that into practical tools because there's a million
resources around creative thinking, design, thinking, innovation. There's no shortage
of academic materials. The trouble is most people just do
what they've done all the time, like what they've always done.
And so when I was researching innovation cultures, the personality
(06:30):
types came up to the surface, and I kept thinking,
do I ever remember being in a brainstorm or an
ideation session where we weren't sort of cast accordingly, right?
And the three that I kind of landed on that
I created I called dreamers, doers, and doubters, and it
became clear to me that you actually need all three.
So I think everyone would want to be the dreamer, right,
(06:51):
But we all know those dreamers that exist in organizations.
They're usually big picture, sometimes unrealistic, but they encourage and
stimulate growth because they're thinking ten steps ahead. So they're critical,
But equally critical are the doubters. Now, it's not the
doubt job to say no in like the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Black hat itself, this is the one I was telling
you about for and the black.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Hat again is misinterpreted from Edward de Bono. The black
hat was just a note of caution someone in the
room to offer perspective. It's not to shut things down.
And I've seen so many businesses over a long period
of time use that black hat examples. Oh you be
the black hat, and people think, oh, I just have
to shut it down. No, no, you have to just
add caution in the conversation. So we've got the dreamer
skating along going. You know, we could do all these
(07:31):
amazing things.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The doubter's job is to bring reality into the picture.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Okay, if we did that, what would happen? Do we
feel like that's an acceptable risk? Where could we try
it before we launch it? So it's not a negative,
it's an important part of the process. And then doers,
arguably the most important love a doer because.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
They need to get hit done right.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
They actually need to go yeah, okay, so we've got
some good ideas, we've sort of stress tested it, but
something has to happen to get it out of our
heads and onto a page now into the real world.
So whenever I'm conducting a session, I give people that
sort of test to say, here's some questions. Let's see
where you see it.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Are you're a dreamer? A doer of data, and then
when we're.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Casting a creative session, we try and make sure there's
a good balance between all of them. Now, balance doesn't
mean equal numbers, because usually the dreamer can do a
lot of heavy lifting. So the dreamer is probably going
to go first. They're probably go, oh, I've got some
ideas around this, that and the other. But then you
want to kind of back them up.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
With a few doers and a few doubters, And I.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Guess you don't want to have a team that's made
up of just one all the other, and you kind
of want blends. I also was thinking about as you
were saying that I probably lean into like more of
a doer type, but there are situations where I have
been a dreamer and a doubt as well. It's not
like you're just one thing.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Yeah, and it can be situational, so you know, you
can have people over the length of their career start
as a dreamer end up as a doer. Like for me,
I'm a dreamer in the workplace, but at home, I'm
very much a doer.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, Like I'm not the person that.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Goes I wouldn't it be great if we could put a
new wall over here, I'm like, Okay, how do we
get that done?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
What's the steps involved?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So it has to be opposite. I'm a do at
work and a dreamer at home, Like, this would be
a great idea if we build this, fans, I have
no idea how we're going to do it, but off
we go.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So hopefully you're married to a dowter. Is not going
to be a negative, but it's going to bring perspective
into it. Okay, if we did that, this is what
that would mean exactly. And the dreaming Just to be
clear too, what it really means is someone whose ability
to think is not shackled by responsibility or the way
we've always done it. But when you think about innovation
solving problems, the dreamer's ability to think laterally and think
(09:23):
outside the square is really important.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I'm reflecting on that as you speak, because in a
role I used to be, and I was trying to
create some progress and problem solve and everything, and my
reaction to creating change was like, here's an idea, let's
do it, and I expected everyone to get on board,
but not knowing about those different types and how everyone,
I guess processes changed or wants to think differently. I
(09:45):
started doing this exercise with teams called pre mortem, which
I'm sure you're really familiar with, but anyone who hasn't
heard of it before. It's basically, you get a team
in a room and you go, here's what we're going
to do. Here's this amazing change. I want you to
tell me all the things that could go wrong with it,
and so people can get that out and then we
start making plans to work on. Okay, well, how would
we prevent that?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
And I think one thing I love to add to
that pre modern process myself is acceptable risk. So there
are things we're going to do because we haven't done
it before. Let's draw a line down the middle and
go what's unacceptable risk and what's acceptable risk. Unacceptable risk
would be this will fall flat, we'll all lose our jobs,
we lose all our customers.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Anything that kind of feels like that could be too
much risk to bite off. Acceptable risk could simply be
we haven't done it before, so we don't actually know
the outcome. We can kind of use our experience or
evidence to think, well, maybe this will happen, but we
don't actually know, So an acceptable risk will be to
try it in a small way. And this is one
of those things that a pre modem process brings out
is for people who are more doer mindset, when they
(10:45):
hear something that's big, they retreat instantly because they go, oh,
what could go wrong with that? Again, that's not a problem,
it's just how we're wired. What could go wrong with
that is a perfectly legitimate thing to verbalize, because we
want to get those things out. Because sometimes when you
get those things out, you go, we you know that
could actually happen, but we're okay with that, But you
don't want the thinking to prevent that action. And in
(11:07):
most of those scenarios, getting things out before you start
getting them up on a whiteboard is a good way
to help mitigate the fear of doing something, because the
big challenge with people not instigating innovation or not fixing
problems is the fear of the unknown. You can't say
fear of outcome till it's been done. And it might
have been done in a different industry, it might have
(11:28):
been done teen years earlier. You know, that's one of
the common things. Right, Oh, we did that before, nothing happened. Well,
times change, technology has change, people have changed. If you're
thinking about, how do we actually get this started? Start
by doing thinking is important. By start by doing it
in small ways and working on a way that you
can do it with some acceptable risk.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I like to call everything an experiment now, and I
think that gets people on board because they go, oh,
it has an ending, and then we can see if
it worked collectively correct. Just that word changes the people's
appetite for all that thing. Yeah, So we talk a
lot about creative thinking at work, but it's one of
(12:10):
those words that I think can also feel quite slippery,
like does it mean being more visual? Is it strategic?
Is it that I can create nice pictures? Or I
have better ideas in a brainstorm? And from what I
hear from a lot of people, sometimes it just gets
written off entirely like we're not creative thinking, we're not
a creative industry. But the kind of creativity we're talking
about today is more like problem solving or curiosity or
(12:33):
maybe even thinking around corners. And honestly, some of the
most creative thinkers I've worked with weren't in creative roles
at all. They just saw things completely differently, and I
would sit in meetings with them going how did you
come up with that although willing to try something new
when no one else was. So, when you're working with teams,
what does thinking differently actually look like? Can you give
(12:55):
us a real example of teams doing it well even
in a pretty traditional setting.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yeah. So I spent a lot of years in the
Nova radio environment. So when Nova launched back in two thousand,
so yes, I'm that old. It was twenty five years ago.
What was really important from the outset was the conditions
for creativity were set. Every other radio station or radio
brand is doing things this way, and the leaders would
(13:20):
isolate the things. Now that doesn't mean they weren't successful,
because they actually were very successful.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
At doing that.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
But we're here to be different in our DNA is different,
so we will try things even if they don't work,
as long as we're being different about it. So the
structure to set up those conditions for creativity were important.
And what it meant was you were supported to make
a lot of mistakes. I knew that there was no
retribution for those mistakes. So what you learn is that
that muscle right, you go, Okay, well I'm going to
(13:45):
try more, and I think thinking differently in a workplace
usually looks like the culture. I mean, you can sort
of say cultures here, and the action thinking differently is there.
But I find that organizations that do it well, it's
so baked in it almost feels wrong to do.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
The normal thing.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And that's depending on what industry you're in or depending
on what you're experiences. It can be scary to think
of it like that. And I've worked in an environment
before where we had Fridays where we'd share the things
that went wrong. Yeah great, we called it f up Friday.
So if you've fed up this week, let's share what
you've done wrong. So you look to the leaders to
go first, and the leaders will go, okay, well I
actually sent the text to the wrong person this way,
(14:24):
kahah have a yeah. But you do over time is
people start to understand, okay, it's okay if I've fed
up this way. So I think there's things that people
can do in their business as usual, which is create
structures for people to share failures or failing forward. As
I like to say, one of the best things you
can do is work out what your risk tolerance is.
So here's a good example. I feel very risky in business.
(14:47):
I'm quite happy to take a punt on something and
it doesn't work, That's fine by me. But you stand
me next to the edge of a swimming pool and
you say, way, jump in, and I'm as nervous as hell.
And there's an inner conflict I have of like, I know,
if I jump in that pool, I'll be fine. I
can swim. The water's fine, like, the danger is actually low.
But when I isolate what it is I've got a
(15:08):
problem with. It's the fear of lack of control. So
for that point two of a second, I'm actually in
the air the water. I don't like that feeling in
my stomach where I'm not in control. I'm actually feeling
like I'm not grounded. So now I know what my
boundaries are with acceptable risk. If I feel like I'm
in control of the risk, I'm good. So how it
manifests in businesses, I'll make risky decisions where there's less
(15:28):
money involved. You know, I can do this and if
it doesn't work, I won't lose much. But I won't
make sort of risky decisions where it affects my family's
financial future.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
What if you're an individual likes you're not a leader,
and you're sitting in an organization right now going everyone
just loves the process or they just want to do things,
and when I suggest new ideas, no one gets on board.
And you're just feeling this like need to rock the
boat slightly.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, in a good way. And I think it's framing
it correctly.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I mean people would get scared about rocking the boat,
I think in general, like, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
But the boat rockers.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, and you're a boat rocker too, Yeah, great, But I.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Feel like, you know, just even the up is kind
of like, well, I'm going to be a boat rocky here.
I'm going to deliberately or intentionally cause trouble and shake things.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Up the cat amongst and pigions of situation, and then
they just leave the room.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Like, but I think it's not about defining who you
are by that. It's about saying what step can I
take that's in the best interest of the business that
maybe the business can't see the upside or the possibility yet,
but I can. And it's being able to find an
ally in that. So, unless you're a one hundred percent
freelancer on your own, let's just say you work in
a small team or a large team doesn't matter. Where
(16:37):
you want to go first is not to the boss
with your big idea. You want to find an ally
for that idea.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
So it's a classic kitchen conversation or whatever.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
It's like, oh, Liz, just thinking about that way we
could do this a bit differently, what do you think?
And what you want to find first is someone who's
going to be supportive and constructive. So we run into
each other in the kitchen. I said this, you'd probably
say something like that sounds really interesting, but have you
thought about X, Y and Z. So there's a supportive
part to that, which is like, I really like it,
and there's a constructive part, which is think about these things.
(17:05):
So once you build up an ally, it becomes easier
to start getting that conversation going and you feel more
confident to pitch that idea around. If you're someone who
doesn't feel confident in sharing that idea, it's about changing
who you sell it to. The comedian's mantra is it's
the same jokes, but change the audience. So if you're
standing up and you're a hit in this city, but
you're not hitting that one, it's not that your jokes
(17:27):
are bad. It's the audience might need changed. So find
a different audience to pitch your kind.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Of idea to you.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Oh, I love that, that's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Yeah, and maybe pitch it outside the company, you know,
maybe pitch it to a friend who might know nothing
about your industry. But what you're looking for is that secure,
comfortable step. Okay, I put myself out there by saying
this out loud. I feel a bit nervous or anxious
by doing it, but I've got some support and potentially
some constructive idea, and you.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Build that layer of skin.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
So the antidote to the creative scar we mentioned before
is to build a callous right, It's to thicken the
skin up, to take more rejection and tolerance. And if
you think about anyone who's in creative industries, if you
look at Steve Jobs, you look at Thomas Edison as
an inventor, you look at anyone who has that kind
of innovation built into who they are as a person.
(18:13):
Every one of them will tell you they've made a
heap of mistakes. But the single biggest difference is it
doesn't stop them. I love the quote from James Clear
who wrote Atomic Habits. He said, every great advance has
come from dreams and attempt and a lot of people
walk around with great ideas in their head, so they're
doing the dreaming part, but it's the attempting. If you
can attempt more things, even in small ways, you're going
to build up that callous and build up that courage
(18:35):
to be more creative.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And it is courage right Like hearing you say that,
I was thinking about when I was creating Learner, and
it was an idea on the back of an envelope,
and you're actually one of the first people I called
to go, I've got this idea, I'm thinking of this,
and you're right. I said, it was terrible, don't do it, please,
don't quit your day job, and then I went.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
And registered Learner just so you couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
How long did you have Learner in your head before
you shared it with anyone?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Not that long to be honest.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Okay, so you went straight out and started.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
To I would say a couple of months.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And who did you share it first?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
With?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Supportive sort of network.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
People who works in creative type industries, my husband's people
who can be potential customers, just sounding out some problems
they were having, etc. And it wasn't. I've read this
great book once, which is I guess. It's about creative
thinking and about asking better questions. It's called the Mum Test,
but it's all about how you can get ideas out
into the world. But make sure you're problem solving, not
(19:28):
just being so wedded to your ideas, like Wade, you
will love this vegimite sandwich, but wage you're hungry, what
would help with that hunger right now? And asking these
questions around the problem, because I think equally you can
be dreamers, you can be doers, etc. But you can't
be so stuck on the idea that it's the only
way forward.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
You should be stuck on what the solution is. So
the solution to a problem I'm solving is this, And
you may have a concept that solves that, and that's fine,
but will inevitably happen. And I couldn't think of an
example across my entire career where the original thought has
ended up with exactly one hundred percent the execution because
it touches other things. So not being wedded to the
(20:10):
actual concept is good. Be wedded to how you can
solve the problem, because you're onto something that right the
insight that's driven you to solve that problem is going
to be true. It's been marinating in your head and
you've been able to progress it along. When you're working
with a business and they are really clear on the problem,
they solve and sometimes it's the shortage of an idea,
so we do like an idea generation type session. What
(20:31):
I find is the more maliable you are and not
fixed on this has to be the only way we
solve this really makes a huge difference when it comes
to actually getting it live and getting it out in
the world, because it will change.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
That's the thing to accept.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Even if right now you have the best idea in
your world in your head as you listen to this
and you got I know this is a great product.
I know this is going to be amazing, think of
it flexibly, think about what it is that makes it
amazing and why it's important.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Because we all have problems at work, and sometimes I
think we can get so stuck on the dreamers do
as doubt as the black headers and the people involved
and the problem. But if instead we all like united
around what the problem was, that we all want a solution.
Because people don't like problems, fund and if we can
unite around attacking that, theren no doubt we're going to
(21:18):
get a better solution rather than just blaming each other
for being part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Of course, and the variable in all these situations is ego.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
You know, if you've got if you've got a founder
or a CEO and it's their idea and they're so
attached to it, because you're not your idea you or
you and your idea is separate, but sometimes they're so
interlinked that you can't see yourself without it. Is if
the ego is driving the agenda there, which is like
I just want my idea to go, that's always going
to be a challenge to try and shape it to
(21:44):
get it to its best product.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Why we smile at each other because we both feel
like we work.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
With people with massive egos.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Probably, so we've talked about what this mindset looks like
and how open thinking can show up in everyday work,
but actually shifting it in the moment, like especially if
you're not the boss, which is what I was alluding
to before. I think that's a really hard part. When
(22:12):
the vibe overall is this is just how we do it,
it can feel quite risky to speak up, and I
certainly felt that in that example I shared with you.
So how do you think, I guess someone can challenge
that kind of thinking without causing tension or making it
a really big deal.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
It's a really big question that one, and I think
so much of it is situational. What you probably want
to look for in an environment like that, as well
as looking for allies who kind of help and support,
is you kind of want to attach as much of
your thinking to a real business outcome. And I'll give
you an example.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
During COVID, the most remarkable thing happened was the lack
of bureaucracy.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
So products had to switch, service offerings had to change,
people had to adapt really quickly. But the big difference
was so did the CEOs and the CEO or the
C suite are as much invested in in switching that
around as the people who have to deliver on it.
So working from home as an example, right, working from
(23:11):
home is not a new thing. Working from home has
been around for a very long time. But what used
to happen was the perception of working from home was negative.
Oh you know, duty's working from home. I bet she's
doing the dishes or some rubbish ruight, not doing anything,
not anything, oh, looking after the kid on if they're
really productive or not. Until the CEOs had to work
from home as well, and then all of a sudden
we have far more flexible workplaces. So when you're trying
(23:35):
to find a way around something like that, I think,
try and find what's in the best interest of the business.
What solves a real business problem, attached it to a
real goal, not a sort of artificial and manufactured one.
So put your energy into trying to solve a problem
that's sitting in front of you. Because what you then
do is build confidence. Yep, see, look I can do this.
You'll build credibility internally. And the third thing is you
(23:55):
kind of negate some of the ego, because ego does
dominate in.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
A lot of business.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
It makes me think of something else I've used in
a brainstorm, which is called the Five Wives, which I know,
you know and you love. And so often people can go,
I'm solving this problem, but it's a surface level problem.
It's not the real problem. So for anyone who hasn't
actually tried this before, you ask why five times? So
wayde said to me, this is the problem. I would
say why, Yeah, and he'd say because of X, Y Z.
(24:20):
And then let's say why and you'd go through that
and at the end, fundamentally that's the core of the
problem you're trying to solve.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Yeah, and I know the analogy I use is you
want to treat not the symptoms, but the cause.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
So what you're usually seeing in a problem, Let's just
make one up. Let's say you and I run an
ice cream company.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, I love that, Yeah, great, okay.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And we don't have enough customers. We need to get
more sales. So what most people usually do is ask
the question is how do we get more sales? But
if you just ask that question and answer it, yeah,
you're going to come up with some maybe some good
ideas around sales, promotions or rewards or offers. But if
you instead you say, why is that a problem? Well,
because we only really think about summer, Why is that
(24:58):
a problem?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Second?
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Why, Well, because most people eat ice cream in summer.
Why why do most people eat ice cream in summer? Well,
because they're try trying to cool down. Why are people
trying to cool down? Well, because it's refreshing and it's hot.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Why do people want to do that? So we've got
to the fifth one.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Well, because people like to eat something kind of cold
in their mouth when they're feeling really hot. So immediately
we could go, okay, now we've got to that bit.
Could we increase sales in locations where people are still hot?
So would we be able to sell more ice creams
near saunas or as a location in Australia we.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Could be selling more Let's buy an ice cream truck.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Let's buy an ice cream truck and take it there.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
So what it does is it kind of really gets
you to drill down on that. Another thing that I
love to do is there's an invisible tension between possibility
and probability.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So more about that.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
What tends to happen is you go into like a brainstorm, right,
and most brainstorms around the world look the same, and
they have for eighty years.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
People go into a.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Room, don't you say, brainstorm is bullshit?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I think it's bullshit. Yeah, and I'll explain that in
a minute. But most people go into these rooms and
they look the same. There's a whiteboard or whatever, there's screen,
there's butcher's paper and post it notes, and someone at
the front goes, right, we need to sell this problem.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
How do we get more sales?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Give us your best ideas, no such thing as a
bad idea, blah blah blah, that kind of bullshit. But
what is unspoken in that environment is are you in
the moment dealing with possibilities or are you dealing with probabilities?
Possibility mindset says we can come up with stuff and
it's okay, it's just thinking. It doesn't cost us anything,
And I've just wasted three seconds by saying it.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
That's just a thought that's possible.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
So you want to divide up the session to come
up with possibilities, and then you want to switch mode
and actively call that out. Now let's go to probability.
And that's where someone in the room, usually a doer,
would go, Okay, so that ice cream sauna thing, let's
try and unpick that a bit. How many saunas are there?
If we did, it would make a huge difference. Probably
not okay, cool, So let's just park that idea. Let's
go on to another idea, because every idea is going
(26:52):
to need usually some sort of legal opinion, practicality is
going to come into it. Budget all the things you
need to do. But when you start a brainstormy session
and the possibility and the probability are constantly rolling around
a mixed up Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
This is what it will sound like. I've got a
great idea, why don't we do this? That will never work?
Speaker 4 (27:09):
And all of a sudden it's disaster. Right, and we've
all been in those situations. Well, like that person who
loved at you, right, Yeah, they were probably dealing in probability.
Now that's not to say that's wrong, but it's discouraging
for you to hear probability when you're trying to get
an idea out there. So you shouldn't start every session
with that interchange of probability and possibility. Have a good
section of possibility where anything is on the table. What
(27:30):
you want to do is encourage multiple possibilities. And it's
not a yes or no, it's a prioritization. So the
ice cream sauna idea, Look, it's okay, but we don't
think it's going to be a game changer, so let's
move it down to priority number ten. But this thing
on priority number one about giving everyone free ice cream
on a Tuesday, we really like that for these reasons. Yeah, cool,
So it's become sorting rather than yes.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
No. I really like that because it appeals to the dreamers,
doers and doubt us in there and they know that
it's coming. They know that they can talk about it,
but they can equally maybe get involved and throw out
some ideas to.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
That's why those combination of personalities is really important. And
you do need all of them, and you need them
an equal dose.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yes, and then you call it an experiment.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Experiment absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
We love to leave people with an out which stands
for one useful thing. What's I guess, one tiny shift,
whether it's like a question, a habit, a way of
thinking that people can try this week to start getting themselves,
all the people they work with out of this hole.
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Trap, We've always done it this way. Trap is a trap.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I think it's it's about cultivating curiosity because curiosity is
the engine room of creativity, as the engine.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Room problem solving.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Because most people don't notice the problems. We just look
at the end result. We eat a meal and go,
this is amazing. We didn't see all the steps that
went into buying the produce or the supply chain or whatever.
We just see the end result. And you know, one
of the most famous kind of sliding doors moments of
all time was, of course Netflix. So Netflix would not
be here if Blockbuster didn't charge a forty dollars late fee.
(29:00):
So Mark Randolph borrowed the DVD. He went to take
it back and it was forty and so in his
mind a lot of people would have seen that problem before,
but he was curious about that problem.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
He went on, why is it forty dollars?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
How could I avoid this in the future, that sliding
door his moment was because of curiosity. Yeah, because he
didn't just go, Okay, I'm going to accept that or
go gee, that's bad, I'm going to start a different
DVD store with no late fees. He's decided to say,
why is that a problem and how could I fix it?
And that's curiosity at work.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
A lot of people will be listening to this episode
going I'm just not a creative person. I'm not a
creative problem solver. But I think you can replace that
C word with another one that sounds ominous on it,
and that is curiosity. So you might say I'm not
a creative person, but are you a curious person? And
we all want to be curious, and we all want
to ask why.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
And we all are right, we all are actually curious.
And we know this because we were curious right from
day dot. We asked lots of questions as kids, and
most of the time as a parent, you're like, oh God,
not more questions, please, But you realize over time how
valuable those questions are. So think of curiosity as the
engine room. It's the blood that gets the heart pump being.
In terms of creative thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Thank you very much for joining us to pay love
that conversation. We're going to go and buy an ice
cream trucks see a disorder.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
What I loved about Wade's approach is that it's not
about becoming a disruptor overnight or challenging everything. It's about
getting curious about the small stuff, like asking why do
we need to do it this way instead of just
accepting it. It's like being in a group chat where
one person always shuts down new restaurant suggestions with saying
things like we always go to this Tipe place. I mean, like, sure,
(30:39):
the tipeplace is fine, but maybe a new kream barbecue
spot could be amazing. And it only takes someone to
suggest it to actually let everyone go there and realize that, yes,
this new place is a new favorite. The research shows
that employees are way more ready for change than we think.
We're just waiting for someone to give us permission to
try something different. So maybe this week you can be
(31:01):
that friend. Instead of accepting that's just how we do it,
you ask, but what if we tried this instead? You
might be surprised by what happens and how much everyone
else was secretly thinking the same thing. Like always. If
you like this episode, please make sure to leave us
a five star review. You can follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Mia, and if you want more
of these topics, check out our very freeing newsletter at
(31:23):
momamea dot com dot U. Forward slash bizz Beers is
produced by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porgees.
We'll be back in your podcast feed next week. Until then,
back yourself question that we've always do it this way
moments and remember even the most confident people are still
learning to think differently. See then bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges
(31:52):
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and
burn them here. You know that feeling when you're in
a meeting and someone suggests something new and then there's
just this really long pause, like everyone's thinking that's interesting,
but and then someone inevitably says, well, that's just not
how we're doing things here, and suddenly the energy just deflates.
(00:35):
I used to think that this was just work life,
that some workplaces were innovative and some just weren't. But
what I realized is that creativity isn't about having the
most artistic job or working in the coolest startup. It's
actually about how we approach problems. And the thing is
we're all capable of it, we just need permission to
think differently. Today, Lisa's conversation with Wade really opened my
(00:58):
eyes to how much of this we've always done it
this way thinking is actually holding us back from solutions
that are right there. And the good years is that
you don't need to be the boss to start shifting it.
So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You know, when someone says that's just how we do
things here, and the conversation kind of ends before it begins.
It comes up all the time, whether it's about meetings,
decision making, or who gets to say that. Thinking can
really hold teams back, which is why we've bought in
Wade Kingsley today. He's the creative coach. So Wade helps
teams get unstuck from exactly this kind of thinking, whether
(01:37):
it's shifting old habits, building curiosity or asking better questions.
He's all about helping people look at problems differently. Have
I missed anything, Wade?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
No, you've done that.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, Hi, Lace, welcome, thank you. So what we're getting
into today like this is not about big, flashy ideas
or throwing out the rule book entirely. It's about small
shifts and how we solve problems and also giving ourselves
per mission to try something new. So if you're someone
who likes to ask could we do this better? Or
why are we even doing it like this? You'll want
(02:08):
to stick around. Let's get into it, Wade. So I
remember working on a campaign launched years ago and I
suggested a couple of new approaches and someone literally laughed
at me in the meeting and they said, yeah, yeah,
good luck with that. That is never going to happen,
and I don't think it was even meant to be rude,
but it was just accepted and that really stuck with
me that moment. So where do you think this default
(02:30):
mindset comes from? Is it fear, is it habit or
is it just the way that workplaces and teams are wired.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
It's a sprinkling from all of the above, I think,
because depending on the culture, the management, the people, and
the team, what I find is it's never.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Usually about a shortage of ideas.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I think most people in organizations have ways they can
fix problems. They understand how to solve a customer problem
or an internal problem. It's the culture and the structure
of the business. Is it set up to allow new
ideas to come in? And if you think about it,
most organizations reward outcomes, so they reward success. So did
(03:06):
we sell enough? Are we hitting budget? Have we achieved
our goal? Are we shipping this many product?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Not?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Many businesses reward risk. And when you think about that
sort of notion of rewarding risk, what is incumbent in
most organizations is a desire to keep the status quo.
Because everyone knows what the status quo looks like. We
know how to do it, we're going to get remunerated
or rewarded based on it. So the incentive to change
to do something different doesn't actually exist in the framework
(03:35):
of the business. So a lot of the businesses that
I do work with, a lot of it starts with, oh,
we need to come up with some ideas, which is great.
But the first place I go is, is this a
culture that rewards risk? Is someone's head going to be
bitten off for suggesting something, or are people going to
judge it too soon? Are they going to say things like, well,
that's great, but that'll never work, or we tried that
(03:55):
once before. So mindset is one part of it, but
mindset is an outcome for the structure and framework and
culture of the business, and it.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Can so easily be shut down. That situation I was
telling you about being laughed at. I mean, I wasn't
going to recommend a new idea for at least another
six or twelve months and until I got my confidence
back in a different situation.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And the scars remain, and I think that's really important.
Brene Brown talks about the creative scar, and the creative
scar is when you're young, someone tells you you either
are creative or you're not creative. And it could be
just this micro moment. It could be just once when
you showed someone a picture when you were four. It
could be handing in some homework or working on a
group assignment. But usually in childhood is where it starts.
(04:38):
And it's called a scar because we remember it, like
we can look at the scar and go, that's right.
Someone told me I can't. And that's the same in
work environment. And that's the contrast I think with businesses
that don't reward risk, they reward outcome. If you reward outcome,
it's pretty clear what you're going to do and where
you're going. And we don't like risk in general terms,
like risk is something we feel like even saying the
word out loud sends the hairs on the back of
(04:59):
the neck up for some people.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
We change.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
I don't like change, yeah, And I think it's about
kind of compartmentalizing the risk. No one wants to take
a risk that's going to lose a business a million bucks,
and that would be an unacceptable risk. But an acceptable
risk is we always do this process the same way.
What would happen if we change one step of the process.
You don't have to change every single thing all at once,
but maybe you just change one thing. Yeah, because if
it fails, we're okay with that failing because we already
(05:22):
know we can go back to the way we did it.
But you know, the appetite for risk is one thing.
But I'm always curious about businesses that actually decide to
say risk is the most important thing we do, or
we need to change the rules just because we want
to change the rules.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I think that's really interesting because one person can say that,
And I'm kind of drawing on my experience here being
a leader and being in an organization where I was
trying to create change and going into these meetings or
these brainstorms, there'd be a black cat yep, and I'd
be like, oh, not you again, Like really, can we
just think of these ideas and actually think about how
to put them in motion, not think of all the
(05:58):
ways they aren't going to work?
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I know you've spoken to me before about how there's
almost like these work types around dreamers, doers, and doubt
as how you work with organizations on that. Can you
share a little bit more about that.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
One one of the things I do for my job
is I look at evidence based research, and I try
and translate that into practical tools because there's a million
resources around creative thinking, design, thinking, innovation. There's no shortage
of academic materials. The trouble is most people just do
what they've done all the time, like what they've always done.
And so when I was researching innovation cultures, the personality
(06:30):
types came up to the surface, and I kept thinking,
do I ever remember being in a brainstorm or an
ideation session where we weren't sort of cast accordingly, right?
And the three that I kind of landed on that
I created I called dreamers, doers, and doubters, and it
became clear to me that you actually need all three.
So I think everyone would want to be the dreamer, right,
(06:51):
But we all know those dreamers that exist in organizations.
They're usually big picture, sometimes unrealistic, but they encourage and
stimulate growth because they're thinking ten steps ahead. So they're critical,
But equally critical are the doubters. Now, it's not the
doubt job to say no in like the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Black hat itself, this is the one I was telling
you about for and the black.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Hat again is misinterpreted from Edward de Bono. The black
hat was just a note of caution someone in the
room to offer perspective. It's not to shut things down.
And I've seen so many businesses over a long period
of time use that black hat examples. Oh you be
the black hat, and people think, oh, I just have
to shut it down. No, no, you have to just
add caution in the conversation. So we've got the dreamer
skating along going. You know, we could do all these
(07:31):
amazing things.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The doubter's job is to bring reality into the picture.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Okay, if we did that, what would happen? Do we
feel like that's an acceptable risk? Where could we try
it before we launch it? So it's not a negative,
it's an important part of the process. And then doers,
arguably the most important love a doer because.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
They need to get hit done right.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
They actually need to go yeah, okay, so we've got
some good ideas, we've sort of stress tested it, but
something has to happen to get it out of our
heads and onto a page now into the real world.
So whenever I'm conducting a session, I give people that
sort of test to say, here's some questions. Let's see
where you see it.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Are you're a dreamer? A doer of data, and then
when we're.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Casting a creative session, we try and make sure there's
a good balance between all of them. Now, balance doesn't
mean equal numbers, because usually the dreamer can do a
lot of heavy lifting. So the dreamer is probably going
to go first. They're probably go, oh, I've got some
ideas around this, that and the other. But then you
want to kind of back them up.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
With a few doers and a few doubters, And I.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Guess you don't want to have a team that's made
up of just one all the other, and you kind
of want blends. I also was thinking about as you
were saying that I probably lean into like more of
a doer type, but there are situations where I have
been a dreamer and a doubt as well. It's not
like you're just one thing.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
Yeah, and it can be situational, so you know, you
can have people over the length of their career start
as a dreamer end up as a doer. Like for me,
I'm a dreamer in the workplace, but at home, I'm
very much a doer.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, Like I'm not the person that.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Goes I wouldn't it be great if we could put a
new wall over here, I'm like, Okay, how do we
get that done?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
What's the steps involved?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So it has to be opposite. I'm a do at
work and a dreamer at home, Like, this would be
a great idea if we build this, fans, I have
no idea how we're going to do it, but off
we go.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
So hopefully you're married to a dowter. Is not going
to be a negative, but it's going to bring perspective
into it. Okay, if we did that, this is what
that would mean exactly. And the dreaming Just to be
clear too, what it really means is someone whose ability
to think is not shackled by responsibility or the way
we've always done it. But when you think about innovation
solving problems, the dreamer's ability to think laterally and think
(09:23):
outside the square is really important.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I'm reflecting on that as you speak, because in a
role I used to be, and I was trying to
create some progress and problem solve and everything, and my
reaction to creating change was like, here's an idea, let's
do it, and I expected everyone to get on board,
but not knowing about those different types and how everyone,
I guess processes changed or wants to think differently. I
(09:45):
started doing this exercise with teams called pre mortem, which
I'm sure you're really familiar with, but anyone who hasn't
heard of it before. It's basically, you get a team
in a room and you go, here's what we're going
to do. Here's this amazing change. I want you to
tell me all the things that could go wrong with it,
and so people can get that out and then we
start making plans to work on. Okay, well, how would
we prevent that?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
And I think one thing I love to add to
that pre modern process myself is acceptable risk. So there
are things we're going to do because we haven't done
it before. Let's draw a line down the middle and
go what's unacceptable risk and what's acceptable risk. Unacceptable risk
would be this will fall flat, we'll all lose our jobs,
we lose all our customers.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Anything that kind of feels like that could be too
much risk to bite off. Acceptable risk could simply be
we haven't done it before, so we don't actually know
the outcome. We can kind of use our experience or
evidence to think, well, maybe this will happen, but we
don't actually know, So an acceptable risk will be to
try it in a small way. And this is one
of those things that a pre modem process brings out
is for people who are more doer mindset, when they
(10:45):
hear something that's big, they retreat instantly because they go, oh,
what could go wrong with that? Again, that's not a problem,
it's just how we're wired. What could go wrong with
that is a perfectly legitimate thing to verbalize, because we
want to get those things out. Because sometimes when you
get those things out, you go, we you know that
could actually happen, but we're okay with that, But you
don't want the thinking to prevent that action. And in
(11:07):
most of those scenarios, getting things out before you start
getting them up on a whiteboard is a good way
to help mitigate the fear of doing something, because the
big challenge with people not instigating innovation or not fixing
problems is the fear of the unknown. You can't say
fear of outcome till it's been done. And it might
have been done in a different industry, it might have
(11:28):
been done teen years earlier. You know, that's one of
the common things. Right, Oh, we did that before, nothing happened. Well,
times change, technology has change, people have changed. If you're
thinking about, how do we actually get this started? Start
by doing thinking is important. By start by doing it
in small ways and working on a way that you
can do it with some acceptable risk.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I like to call everything an experiment now, and I
think that gets people on board because they go, oh,
it has an ending, and then we can see if
it worked collectively correct. Just that word changes the people's
appetite for all that thing. Yeah, So we talk a
lot about creative thinking at work, but it's one of
(12:10):
those words that I think can also feel quite slippery,
like does it mean being more visual? Is it strategic?
Is it that I can create nice pictures? Or I
have better ideas in a brainstorm? And from what I
hear from a lot of people, sometimes it just gets
written off entirely like we're not creative thinking, we're not
a creative industry. But the kind of creativity we're talking
about today is more like problem solving or curiosity or
(12:33):
maybe even thinking around corners. And honestly, some of the
most creative thinkers I've worked with weren't in creative roles
at all. They just saw things completely differently, and I
would sit in meetings with them going how did you
come up with that although willing to try something new
when no one else was. So, when you're working with teams,
what does thinking differently actually look like? Can you give
(12:55):
us a real example of teams doing it well even
in a pretty traditional setting.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yeah. So I spent a lot of years in the
Nova radio environment. So when Nova launched back in two thousand,
so yes, I'm that old. It was twenty five years ago.
What was really important from the outset was the conditions
for creativity were set. Every other radio station or radio
brand is doing things this way, and the leaders would
(13:20):
isolate the things. Now that doesn't mean they weren't successful,
because they actually were very successful.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
At doing that.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
But we're here to be different in our DNA is different,
so we will try things even if they don't work,
as long as we're being different about it. So the
structure to set up those conditions for creativity were important.
And what it meant was you were supported to make
a lot of mistakes. I knew that there was no
retribution for those mistakes. So what you learn is that
that muscle right, you go, Okay, well I'm going to
(13:45):
try more, and I think thinking differently in a workplace
usually looks like the culture. I mean, you can sort
of say cultures here, and the action thinking differently is there.
But I find that organizations that do it well, it's
so baked in it almost feels wrong to do.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
The normal thing.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And that's depending on what industry you're in or depending
on what you're experiences. It can be scary to think
of it like that. And I've worked in an environment
before where we had Fridays where we'd share the things
that went wrong. Yeah great, we called it f up Friday.
So if you've fed up this week, let's share what
you've done wrong. So you look to the leaders to
go first, and the leaders will go, okay, well I
actually sent the text to the wrong person this way,
(14:24):
kahah have a yeah. But you do over time is
people start to understand, okay, it's okay if I've fed
up this way. So I think there's things that people
can do in their business as usual, which is create
structures for people to share failures or failing forward. As
I like to say, one of the best things you
can do is work out what your risk tolerance is.
So here's a good example. I feel very risky in business.
(14:47):
I'm quite happy to take a punt on something and
it doesn't work, That's fine by me. But you stand
me next to the edge of a swimming pool and
you say, way, jump in, and I'm as nervous as hell.
And there's an inner conflict I have of like, I know,
if I jump in that pool, I'll be fine. I
can swim. The water's fine, like, the danger is actually low.
But when I isolate what it is I've got a
(15:08):
problem with. It's the fear of lack of control. So
for that point two of a second, I'm actually in
the air the water. I don't like that feeling in
my stomach where I'm not in control. I'm actually feeling
like I'm not grounded. So now I know what my
boundaries are with acceptable risk. If I feel like I'm
in control of the risk, I'm good. So how it
manifests in businesses, I'll make risky decisions where there's less
(15:28):
money involved. You know, I can do this and if
it doesn't work, I won't lose much. But I won't
make sort of risky decisions where it affects my family's
financial future.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
What if you're an individual likes you're not a leader,
and you're sitting in an organization right now going everyone
just loves the process or they just want to do things,
and when I suggest new ideas, no one gets on board.
And you're just feeling this like need to rock the
boat slightly.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, in a good way. And I think it's framing
it correctly.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I mean people would get scared about rocking the boat,
I think in general, like, I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
But the boat rockers.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah, and you're a boat rocker too, Yeah, great, But I.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Feel like, you know, just even the up is kind
of like, well, I'm going to be a boat rocky here.
I'm going to deliberately or intentionally cause trouble and shake things.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Up the cat amongst and pigions of situation, and then
they just leave the room.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Like, but I think it's not about defining who you
are by that. It's about saying what step can I
take that's in the best interest of the business that
maybe the business can't see the upside or the possibility yet,
but I can. And it's being able to find an
ally in that. So, unless you're a one hundred percent
freelancer on your own, let's just say you work in
a small team or a large team doesn't matter. Where
(16:37):
you want to go first is not to the boss
with your big idea. You want to find an ally
for that idea.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
So it's a classic kitchen conversation or whatever.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
It's like, oh, Liz, just thinking about that way we
could do this a bit differently, what do you think?
And what you want to find first is someone who's
going to be supportive and constructive. So we run into
each other in the kitchen. I said this, you'd probably
say something like that sounds really interesting, but have you
thought about X, Y and Z. So there's a supportive
part to that, which is like, I really like it,
and there's a constructive part, which is think about these things.
(17:05):
So once you build up an ally, it becomes easier
to start getting that conversation going and you feel more
confident to pitch that idea around. If you're someone who
doesn't feel confident in sharing that idea, it's about changing
who you sell it to. The comedian's mantra is it's
the same jokes, but change the audience. So if you're
standing up and you're a hit in this city, but
you're not hitting that one, it's not that your jokes
(17:27):
are bad. It's the audience might need changed. So find
a different audience to pitch your kind.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Of idea to you.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Oh, I love that, that's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
Yeah, and maybe pitch it outside the company, you know,
maybe pitch it to a friend who might know nothing
about your industry. But what you're looking for is that secure,
comfortable step. Okay, I put myself out there by saying
this out loud. I feel a bit nervous or anxious
by doing it, but I've got some support and potentially
some constructive idea, and you.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Build that layer of skin.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
So the antidote to the creative scar we mentioned before
is to build a callous right, It's to thicken the
skin up, to take more rejection and tolerance. And if
you think about anyone who's in creative industries, if you
look at Steve Jobs, you look at Thomas Edison as
an inventor, you look at anyone who has that kind
of innovation built into who they are as a person.
(18:13):
Every one of them will tell you they've made a
heap of mistakes. But the single biggest difference is it
doesn't stop them. I love the quote from James Clear
who wrote Atomic Habits. He said, every great advance has
come from dreams and attempt and a lot of people
walk around with great ideas in their head, so they're
doing the dreaming part, but it's the attempting. If you
can attempt more things, even in small ways, you're going
to build up that callous and build up that courage
(18:35):
to be more creative.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And it is courage right Like hearing you say that,
I was thinking about when I was creating Learner, and
it was an idea on the back of an envelope,
and you're actually one of the first people I called
to go, I've got this idea, I'm thinking of this,
and you're right. I said, it was terrible, don't do it, please,
don't quit your day job, and then I went.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
And registered Learner just so you couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
How long did you have Learner in your head before
you shared it with anyone?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Not that long to be honest.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Okay, so you went straight out and started.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
To I would say a couple of months.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And who did you share it first?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
With?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Supportive sort of network.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
People who works in creative type industries, my husband's people
who can be potential customers, just sounding out some problems
they were having, etc. And it wasn't. I've read this
great book once, which is I guess. It's about creative
thinking and about asking better questions. It's called the Mum Test,
but it's all about how you can get ideas out
into the world. But make sure you're problem solving, not
(19:28):
just being so wedded to your ideas, like Wade, you
will love this vegimite sandwich, but wage you're hungry, what
would help with that hunger right now? And asking these
questions around the problem, because I think equally you can
be dreamers, you can be doers, etc. But you can't
be so stuck on the idea that it's the only
way forward.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
You should be stuck on what the solution is. So
the solution to a problem I'm solving is this, And
you may have a concept that solves that, and that's fine,
but will inevitably happen. And I couldn't think of an
example across my entire career where the original thought has
ended up with exactly one hundred percent the execution because
it touches other things. So not being wedded to the
(20:10):
actual concept is good. Be wedded to how you can
solve the problem, because you're onto something that right the
insight that's driven you to solve that problem is going
to be true. It's been marinating in your head and
you've been able to progress it along. When you're working
with a business and they are really clear on the problem,
they solve and sometimes it's the shortage of an idea,
so we do like an idea generation type session. What
(20:31):
I find is the more maliable you are and not
fixed on this has to be the only way we
solve this really makes a huge difference when it comes
to actually getting it live and getting it out in
the world, because it will change.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
That's the thing to accept.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Even if right now you have the best idea in
your world in your head as you listen to this
and you got I know this is a great product.
I know this is going to be amazing, think of
it flexibly, think about what it is that makes it
amazing and why it's important.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Because we all have problems at work, and sometimes I
think we can get so stuck on the dreamers do
as doubt as the black headers and the people involved
and the problem. But if instead we all like united
around what the problem was, that we all want a solution.
Because people don't like problems, fund and if we can
unite around attacking that, theren no doubt we're going to
(21:18):
get a better solution rather than just blaming each other
for being part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Of course, and the variable in all these situations is ego.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
You know, if you've got if you've got a founder
or a CEO and it's their idea and they're so
attached to it, because you're not your idea you or
you and your idea is separate, but sometimes they're so
interlinked that you can't see yourself without it. Is if
the ego is driving the agenda there, which is like
I just want my idea to go, that's always going
to be a challenge to try and shape it to
(21:44):
get it to its best product.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Why we smile at each other because we both feel
like we work.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
With people with massive egos.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Probably, so we've talked about what this mindset looks like
and how open thinking can show up in everyday work,
but actually shifting it in the moment, like especially if
you're not the boss, which is what I was alluding
to before. I think that's a really hard part. When
(22:12):
the vibe overall is this is just how we do it,
it can feel quite risky to speak up, and I
certainly felt that in that example I shared with you.
So how do you think, I guess someone can challenge
that kind of thinking without causing tension or making it
a really big deal.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
It's a really big question that one, and I think
so much of it is situational. What you probably want
to look for in an environment like that, as well
as looking for allies who kind of help and support,
is you kind of want to attach as much of
your thinking to a real business outcome. And I'll give
you an example.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
During COVID, the most remarkable thing happened was the lack
of bureaucracy.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
So products had to switch, service offerings had to change,
people had to adapt really quickly. But the big difference
was so did the CEOs and the CEO or the
C suite are as much invested in in switching that
around as the people who have to deliver on it.
So working from home as an example, right, working from
(23:11):
home is not a new thing. Working from home has
been around for a very long time. But what used
to happen was the perception of working from home was negative.
Oh you know, duty's working from home. I bet she's
doing the dishes or some rubbish ruight, not doing anything,
not anything, oh, looking after the kid on if they're
really productive or not. Until the CEOs had to work
from home as well, and then all of a sudden
we have far more flexible workplaces. So when you're trying
(23:35):
to find a way around something like that, I think,
try and find what's in the best interest of the business.
What solves a real business problem, attached it to a
real goal, not a sort of artificial and manufactured one.
So put your energy into trying to solve a problem
that's sitting in front of you. Because what you then
do is build confidence. Yep, see, look I can do this.
You'll build credibility internally. And the third thing is you
(23:55):
kind of negate some of the ego, because ego does
dominate in.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
A lot of business.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
It makes me think of something else I've used in
a brainstorm, which is called the Five Wives, which I know,
you know and you love. And so often people can go,
I'm solving this problem, but it's a surface level problem.
It's not the real problem. So for anyone who hasn't
actually tried this before, you ask why five times? So
wayde said to me, this is the problem. I would
say why, Yeah, and he'd say because of X, Y Z.
(24:20):
And then let's say why and you'd go through that
and at the end, fundamentally that's the core of the
problem you're trying to solve.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Yeah, and I know the analogy I use is you
want to treat not the symptoms, but the cause.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
So what you're usually seeing in a problem, Let's just
make one up. Let's say you and I run an
ice cream company.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, I love that, Yeah, great, okay.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And we don't have enough customers. We need to get
more sales. So what most people usually do is ask
the question is how do we get more sales? But
if you just ask that question and answer it, yeah,
you're going to come up with some maybe some good
ideas around sales, promotions or rewards or offers. But if
you instead you say, why is that a problem? Well,
because we only really think about summer, Why is that
(24:58):
a problem?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Second?
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Why, Well, because most people eat ice cream in summer.
Why why do most people eat ice cream in summer? Well,
because they're try trying to cool down. Why are people
trying to cool down? Well, because it's refreshing and it's hot.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Why do people want to do that? So we've got
to the fifth one.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Well, because people like to eat something kind of cold
in their mouth when they're feeling really hot. So immediately
we could go, okay, now we've got to that bit.
Could we increase sales in locations where people are still hot?
So would we be able to sell more ice creams
near saunas or as a location in Australia we.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Could be selling more Let's buy an ice cream truck.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Let's buy an ice cream truck and take it there.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
So what it does is it kind of really gets
you to drill down on that. Another thing that I
love to do is there's an invisible tension between possibility
and probability.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So more about that.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
What tends to happen is you go into like a brainstorm, right,
and most brainstorms around the world look the same, and
they have for eighty years.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
People go into a.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Room, don't you say, brainstorm is bullshit?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
I think it's bullshit. Yeah, and I'll explain that in
a minute. But most people go into these rooms and
they look the same. There's a whiteboard or whatever, there's screen,
there's butcher's paper and post it notes, and someone at
the front goes, right, we need to sell this problem.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
How do we get more sales?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Give us your best ideas, no such thing as a
bad idea, blah blah blah, that kind of bullshit. But
what is unspoken in that environment is are you in
the moment dealing with possibilities or are you dealing with probabilities?
Possibility mindset says we can come up with stuff and
it's okay, it's just thinking. It doesn't cost us anything,
And I've just wasted three seconds by saying it.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
That's just a thought that's possible.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
So you want to divide up the session to come
up with possibilities, and then you want to switch mode
and actively call that out. Now let's go to probability.
And that's where someone in the room, usually a doer,
would go, Okay, so that ice cream sauna thing, let's
try and unpick that a bit. How many saunas are there?
If we did, it would make a huge difference. Probably
not okay, cool, So let's just park that idea. Let's
go on to another idea, because every idea is going
(26:52):
to need usually some sort of legal opinion, practicality is
going to come into it. Budget all the things you
need to do. But when you start a brainstormy session
and the possibility and the probability are constantly rolling around
a mixed up Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
This is what it will sound like. I've got a
great idea, why don't we do this? That will never work?
Speaker 4 (27:09):
And all of a sudden it's disaster. Right, and we've
all been in those situations. Well, like that person who
loved at you, right, Yeah, they were probably dealing in probability.
Now that's not to say that's wrong, but it's discouraging
for you to hear probability when you're trying to get
an idea out there. So you shouldn't start every session
with that interchange of probability and possibility. Have a good
section of possibility where anything is on the table. What
(27:30):
you want to do is encourage multiple possibilities. And it's
not a yes or no, it's a prioritization. So the
ice cream sauna idea, Look, it's okay, but we don't
think it's going to be a game changer, so let's
move it down to priority number ten. But this thing
on priority number one about giving everyone free ice cream
on a Tuesday, we really like that for these reasons. Yeah, cool,
So it's become sorting rather than yes.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
No. I really like that because it appeals to the dreamers,
doers and doubt us in there and they know that
it's coming. They know that they can talk about it,
but they can equally maybe get involved and throw out
some ideas to.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
That's why those combination of personalities is really important. And
you do need all of them, and you need them
an equal dose.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yes, and then you call it an experiment.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Experiment absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
We love to leave people with an out which stands
for one useful thing. What's I guess, one tiny shift,
whether it's like a question, a habit, a way of
thinking that people can try this week to start getting themselves,
all the people they work with out of this hole.
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Trap, We've always done it this way. Trap is a trap.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
I think it's it's about cultivating curiosity because curiosity is
the engine room of creativity, as the engine.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Room problem solving.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Because most people don't notice the problems. We just look
at the end result. We eat a meal and go,
this is amazing. We didn't see all the steps that
went into buying the produce or the supply chain or whatever.
We just see the end result. And you know, one
of the most famous kind of sliding doors moments of
all time was, of course Netflix. So Netflix would not
be here if Blockbuster didn't charge a forty dollars late fee.
(29:00):
So Mark Randolph borrowed the DVD. He went to take
it back and it was forty and so in his
mind a lot of people would have seen that problem before,
but he was curious about that problem.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
He went on, why is it forty dollars?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
How could I avoid this in the future, that sliding
door his moment was because of curiosity. Yeah, because he
didn't just go, Okay, I'm going to accept that or
go gee, that's bad, I'm going to start a different
DVD store with no late fees. He's decided to say,
why is that a problem and how could I fix it?
And that's curiosity at work.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
A lot of people will be listening to this episode
going I'm just not a creative person. I'm not a
creative problem solver. But I think you can replace that
C word with another one that sounds ominous on it,
and that is curiosity. So you might say I'm not
a creative person, but are you a curious person? And
we all want to be curious, and we all want
to ask why.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
And we all are right, we all are actually curious.
And we know this because we were curious right from
day dot. We asked lots of questions as kids, and
most of the time as a parent, you're like, oh God,
not more questions, please, But you realize over time how
valuable those questions are. So think of curiosity as the
engine room. It's the blood that gets the heart pump being.
In terms of creative thinking.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Thank you very much for joining us to pay love
that conversation. We're going to go and buy an ice
cream trucks see a disorder.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
What I loved about Wade's approach is that it's not
about becoming a disruptor overnight or challenging everything. It's about
getting curious about the small stuff, like asking why do
we need to do it this way instead of just
accepting it. It's like being in a group chat where
one person always shuts down new restaurant suggestions with saying
things like we always go to this Tipe place. I mean, like, sure,
(30:39):
the tipeplace is fine, but maybe a new kream barbecue
spot could be amazing. And it only takes someone to
suggest it to actually let everyone go there and realize that, yes,
this new place is a new favorite. The research shows
that employees are way more ready for change than we think.
We're just waiting for someone to give us permission to
try something different. So maybe this week you can be
(31:01):
that friend. Instead of accepting that's just how we do it,
you ask, but what if we tried this instead? You
might be surprised by what happens and how much everyone
else was secretly thinking the same thing. Like always. If
you like this episode, please make sure to leave us
a five star review. You can follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Mia, and if you want more
of these topics, check out our very freeing newsletter at
(31:23):
momamea dot com dot U. Forward slash bizz Beers is
produced by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porgees.
We'll be back in your podcast feed next week. Until then,
back yourself question that we've always do it this way
moments and remember even the most confident people are still
learning to think differently. See then bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges
(31:52):
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on
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