September 29, 2025 • 30 mins
Feedback the word that makes most of us want to hide under our desks. Whether you're asking for it or giving it, feedback conversations can feel bloody awkward. But here's the thing: we all know we need it to grow.
This week on BIZ, leadership coach Lauren Humphrey, co-founder of The Mentable chats how to tackle the feedback minefield. We're exploring why feedback feels so intense (even when we ask for it), the difference between feedback and feelings, and how to build feedback into your work relationships without making it weird. From the psychology behind why we resist feedback to practical scripts for giving it to your boss or peers, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you master one of the most important workplace skills.
What you'll learn:
- The SARA model - why we all go through shock, anxiety, resistance, and acceptance when receiving feedback
- How to tell the difference between feedback and conflict
- Real scripts for giving feedback to peers, bosses, and team members
- How to build feedback into your regular work rhythm so it stops feeling like a big deal
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
Resources Mentioned:
You can find more from Lauren here with some guides on some of the toughest feedback conversations to have:
'What to do when your boss needs feedback' - in Learna
'Giving your peers feedback' - in Learna
Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well (Even When It Is Off Base, Unfair, Poorly Delivered, and, Frankly, You're Not In the Mood) Hardcover by Douglas Stone (Author), Sheila Heen (Author)
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GUEST: Lauren Humphrey (Co-founder The Mintable)
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to VIZ your Work Life Sorted. I'm
Mburnham and today we're tackling something that makes most of
us want to hide under our desks.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's feedback.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Whether it's asking for it or giving it, feedback can
be so bloody awkward. We all know we need to grow,
but somehow it always turns into this whole thing. You
end up being way too stiff and formal, or you
try to be nice that you don't actually say anything
useful at all. So today we're figuring out how to
do feedback without making it weird, how to just ask
(00:47):
for it, how to just give it, and how to
use it to actually advance your career. Join me and
my co host LESA Lee and leadership coach Lauren Humphrey,
who's co founder at the Mintable.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey and Lauren, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be on
the show.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Can I just say this topic is so needed? It
comes up all the time in my conversations. You know,
half the time you walk away from feedback conversations thinking
was that actually helpful? Or do they secretly hate me?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
For it.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
So if you've ever found yourself avoiding those feedback conversations,
or if you want to get better at having them,
this one's for you, all right, Lauren, I want to
call something out. I think we all say we want feedback,
but the minute it shows up, we can all times
either get defensive, overthink it, or spiral or think maybe
they just hate me territory. Why do you think feedback
(01:36):
feels so intense even when it's something we might have
asked for.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
So the reality is that even if we want to grow,
we also want to be accepted. There is an amazing
author who's researched and talks about feedback called Sheila Hin
and she basically devised this theory that when it comes
to feedback, that awful feeling we always get, even if
(02:00):
we get to the good place, comes from the tension
between those two desires to grow and change and to
say yes, Lisa, I love you, don't change. And so
when we get feedback from anyone, even if it's well meaning,
even if we're actually pretty okay with it, it's still
a suggestion that you might change what you do and
(02:21):
who you are.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So that's reason one, and reason two.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Is that just in terms of how we process information
about ourselves, there's kind of always any time you're getting
information that's different to what you think going to be
a bit of a psychological process, and researchers have kind
of broken it down into four stages. So the first
is shock or surprise, depending on what the feedback is.
(02:46):
Then it's anger or at least anxiety that's viral you
talked about, Then resistance like no, it's not true, and
then finally acceptance. They call it the Sarah model and
the beauty of the Sarah model. And realizing that this
happens anytime you get feedback is that it sort of
normalizes that experience internal for yourself. It also normalizes the
(03:07):
experience if you're observing it in someone you've just given
feedback to. Yeah, So instead of expecting that someone's going
to like get feedback and just be like, yes, I'm transformed,
instead realizing they're going to go through a process, you
can start to look for the shock, anxiety, resistance, and
acceptance and even help them through it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I think knowing your own experience with it and that
we all go through it can sometimes also be while
we hold back from giving feedback because we don't want
to hurt that person. From my experience, I think most
people aren't scared of feedback. They're actually really just scared
of finding out they're not as good as they hoped.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Yeah, definitely, there's that, you know, sort of desire to
be loved and validated and approved for who you are,
and it's just that feeling of oh, maybe, yeah, my
ideas about myself aren't true. My business, the mentable, we
train lots and lots of managers and most of them
hold back from feedback because of their fear about.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
What the other person is going to do or think.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yes, And we'll often coach and say, well, what story
telling yourself about that?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Like what's actually going to happen?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
And sure, every so often you do get the dramatic
crying or anger, but more often than not, you just
watch someone go through that kind of four stage process, the.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Process yeah, of expecting.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
One of the things I used to say to managers
I would work with was, no one is turning up
to work trying to do a shit job, Like they're
not going, Hey, let's go to work. It's Wednesday. I'm
going to do the shittest job I can possibly do here,
everyone's coming at it with good intentions, So go into
the feedback knowing they have good intention.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Yes, exactly, And I think a couple of other things
that can be really helpful. So one other reason that
feedback can feel just so intense and heavy is this
feeling as a giver that you've got to get it right.
Oh yeah, like I'm putting this in bunny years, and
you know you can even you know, talking to your
partner or your roommates at.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Home, like do you see it? Do you see it?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
By the time you're like trying to build a case
and figure out if you've got it right. It's too
that you need to have shared the feedback earlier, because
no feedback is the truth. Certainly, if you're a manager
and there's something you expect to see, that's as close.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
To the truth as you can get.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
But even there, I would coach, you've got to offer
it as observations. You don't know the full picture of
what's happening. So I think that's another reason, yeah, why
it can feel so intense and instead if it's framed
as hey, I have some observations I want to share
that could help you be better or that could help
you close a gap that you perceive kind of takes
(05:29):
that pressure off. It's like, I'm just trying to share
something that I think will help.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
As opposed to the word this is gospel. I think
that's a truth bomb in itself. Rod is that you go,
my feedback is fect and nothing else can be happening.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And that's when it feels quite aggressive and forced on you.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's where you get the big reactions.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
And the other case where you get big reactions. And
I think why feedback can feel scary and you know,
sort of emotionally charged, is that people confuse feedback with
the other F word, which is feelings. Oftentimes we think
we have feedback first someone, but really we have conflict
to resolve.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So tell me more about that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
So let's say you have a boss, right, so you're
not necessarily even the one in charge. We have a boss,
and they've been cutting you off in meetings, yeah, and
maybe letting someone else speak, and it's kind of built
up and in your head it's starting to feel like feedback. Yeah,
I've got some feedback. I can't handle this anymore. They
don't respect me, right, and you're kind of building this
(06:32):
case about what they're doing and thinking their intent. The
reality is that you just have feelings that you need
to share. So instead of I've got some feedback that
you know, you shouldn't cut me off, it's hey, a
couple of times I have felt unheard and like my
ideas don't matter as much because you skipped to the
(06:54):
next person or didn't call on me.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, that's not feedback.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
That's feelings and an invitation if it's done right, to say,
what's your perspective and would you be willing to help
me feel more involved?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So yes, yeah, right, Like, ah, feels so much more doable.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
So much more doable. But sometimes we are. We confuse
feedback with feelings. I eat conflict, and so I think
that's another really important thing to suss out.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's like, how can I figure that out in my head?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Though? Like what can I ask myself or something? If
I'm trying to work out if it's a feedback thing
or a feelings thing.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
My kind of ticket to feedback the thing that I
feel like I don't have a right to give feedback
unless I have this thing is a clear expectation in place.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Oh yes, Oh my gosh. If people would only just
set expectations clearly. Then I've said this before, we wouldn't
be having to give feedback or have the hard conversations
because we've done the work up front.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
So expectation is like you could also say commitment an
agreement and by the way, commitment could be like values
at our company.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That is an agreement. It's implied, but it's an agreement.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Shared understanding exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
So if I have an expectation in place and the
person has committed to that and they know it, then yes,
then it's typically going to be a feedback conversation because
the idea is I'm giving feedback. I'm sharing observations to
help you achieve the thing we agreed upon. Now, if
it's a situation where it seems like there could be
(08:24):
a shared expectation, yeah, but I'm actually not sure, then
the first thing I do is clarify are we seeing
and committed to the same expectation? Yeah, Because a lot
of times as a manager, I've thought I was going
to go in hot on feedback, then it just ends
up being a conversation about clarity about the expectation or commitment. Yeah,
oh okay, Yeah, you had no idea or yeah, you
(08:47):
knew that you just don't agree with this expectation.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
And finally, if I do feel that feeling and like
I have something to say but there's no expectation, and
generally it's conflict, I have a feeling that we need.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
To work through.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, okay, that's a really great distinction. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I've been thinking about that model that you shared earlier.
And one of the things I think, you know, makes
feedback feel really icky is that you psyched yourself up
and you gave the feedback it may be landed, and
then nothing changed. The person kept doing the thing, they
kept talking over you in the meeting, or they kept
not hitting deadlines. Then I think people go, well, what's
the point?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Yes, kind of like the unanswered yeah back. Look, that
can be really challenging. And the reality is that, you know,
some people stay stuck in that process yeah and haven't
actually come out to acceptance. So sometimes people get that
kind of sort of experience that you've had because the
other person just hasn't finished the process and gotten to acceptance. Yeah,
(09:49):
they're just doing and anxiety or especially as a manager,
but I think its just a human that wants to
help other humans, you can check in and say, hey, like,
where are you at?
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I shared this feedback? Where are you up to? Are
you still thinking on it? Code for like the anxiety spiral?
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Yes, any hesitations or any sort of follow ups that
you wanted to work out? Is there anything I can
do to get you to those next steps we talked about?
That's that acceptance bit. Okay, So once you know that
kind of Sarah model, you can basically engage people to
sass out where they are and help bring them through.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Is there something How often you should be giving people feedback?
Because I used to have these.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Challenges where managers would drop truth bombs at a performance
review and then of course, like emotions escalated, total surprise.
Why have you never told me this before? How often
should I be giving feedback to someone?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
I studied a couple of years ago found that like
sixty percent of employees want feedback on I think it's
like a weekly basis, And then for people under thirty
so gen Z, it jumped up to seventy two percent.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So people want feedback, And look, I don't.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Think that seventy two percent. Yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
And look the thing is, I don't think that people
want huge heavy performance review feedback conversation once a week.
That would be insane. Yeah, but I think the idea
behind it is if you just get observations that can
kind of help you improve along the way, then it
doesn't become the big f word feedback conversations. It's just
I literally just want input along the way so I
(11:22):
do a good job.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
They're almost like nudges of that seventy two percent that
you said, though, like, what's a breakdown in terms of
like positive reinforcement keep doing that versus hey, here's something
you need to change now.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
At the end of the day, recognition and appreciation is
one of the top three drivers of performance, the attention,
low turnover, productivity. I mean, one study of an airline
found that recognition and appreciation mattered more than compensation.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
So yeah, basically the effects of recognition were higher than
sort of dollar bonuses.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I totally get that.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I've seen like managers go that was a good preso
mate anyway, and like, oh yeah, I did some feedback
and like that's on feedback.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
How do they how do they use it? How do
they repeat that? It feels so generic.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
Too, Yes, exactly, So I think I'm always a big
believer that you should lead with positive feedback, and a
study out of Harvard found that ideally, you know, sort
of a relationship was like a bank account that you
would have five deposits of positive feedback in for every
withdrawal like negative.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And that's not, by the way, the shit sandwich.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
They completely separate, but you have got.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
To take that off the menu.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
But that is more a relationship bank, right, because ultimately,
feedback isn't given in the context of a transaction. It's
given in the context of a relationship. And so the
idea behind positive feedback and recognition and appreciation is you
build the goodwill so that when you go to say
I wish you could change something, it's going to be
better received. Obviously, if someone's not performing well, then that's
(12:48):
going to be a different ratio. So the idea is
just on a weekly basis, it's less about I have
feedback and more, hey, here's the expectations. Here's some observations
for what you can keep doing because you're absolutely killing it.
And here's maybe one thing that you could work on
again to achieve the expectation. And if it's a peer
the expectations aren't necessarily as explicit. You can even say
(13:11):
at the beginning of the quarter, like, Hey, what's one
thing we want to work on and what's our most
important goal? Can we give each other feedback on this,
because I'd love for us both to win.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yeah, that open invitation.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I also really like what you're saying there around that
feedback is actually connected to the relationship. There are so
many people who talk about wanting to build more trust
into their relationships at work or even just wanting to
generally improve the relationship, and feedback can be a great
place to start that by opening that conversation.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
I mean one of the biggest motivators for me when
it comes to tough feedback is imagining what the person
would say if I told them the same thing three
months down the road, when it's no longer a situation
that can really be fixed.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And look, I've.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Done that, I've made that mistake. And no one's perfect
at feedback, no one will ever be. But that's such
a motivator because nothing breaks trust in a relationship than
that moment of oh, wait, how long I've been doing
this or how long have you been feeling this way?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah? Then holding back from feedback yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I think there's more to add to this as well,
in the sense that I remember this one time giving
feedback to my boss and look, maybe I didn't deliver
it the best way in the best forum. He called
me afterwards and like rooped shreds off me to the
point where I was crying on the phone. How do
you reckon that trust and that relationship was after that,
I'm like, well, I can obviously not give you feedback again.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yes, well, I.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Could learn some things around the ways a little bit,
I'm sure, but this does not feel like a safe
relationship where we're going to candidly give each other feedback now.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
No, And look, who knows when this happened, But at
some point we were sort of given the memo that
feelings don't have a place at work.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Oh yeah, sorry, I was crying on the phone.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
And the funny thing is feelings are like the OG
data point. We basically as humans evolved to have feeling.
The human body doesn't evolve to have much that doesn't
serve like flighter fight is the OG feelings, and so
the idea is like, as a human, you literally cannot
stop from feeling. But when we're told to stuff them down.
(15:15):
It kind of can create a culture where people do
fly off the handle. Now, look, I'm not saying you
should necessarily cry at work meetings, right, that's also you
not regulating your feelings. So I think a lot of
negative feedback experiences come from disregulated adults.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Yeah, for sure, the fear that comes from doing it
again because you don't know how someone's going.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
To react exactly.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And so one of the things that I love teaching
is this practice called affect labeling. And I promise I'm
going to help former Lisa in a minute with this,
but essentially what it is is that neuroscientists have found
that you can reduce the intensity of an emotion.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
By labeling it.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Now, it doesn't really work for situations like being at
a coffee shop and like being cranky about being in line,
because it's of asa, it's low stakes, and if you
label it like okay, you're kind of now over dramatizing, yes,
But for situations where genuinely or feeling something really strongly,
the idea is it's a simple as labeling specifically what
you're feeling, and that basically tells the amygdala to chill
(16:11):
out and brings the feelings down. Now, going back to
former Lisa, who boss was turn bucket. If you're ever
in a situation like that, you've given feedback and now
you're sort of getting the wrath, it's okay to say
I can see that you're having a hard reaction to
this to my boss.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yep, that feels like a really intense thing to be
able to say.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Yeah, I can see that you're having a hard reaction
to this. Look, they might continue to go on, but
it can be just enough to trigger that process of
forcing them to label the feeling that they're having. Because
it's no less intense for them to call you screaming.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, and it's it's a sentence.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
They might continue to go on screaming, but what it
does is triggers that sort of affect labeling moment.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I know it's an intense.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Thing, but I'm smiling love because I'm im measuring myself
saying it to that person and them just like like
completely losing their shit more.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
But for the average.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Person, I feel like it might just like put a
pause in the conversation and be.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Like, yeah, you're right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
And like if you're a manager and someone's having a
hard time, like crying or shutting down. It can be
just that they need you know, some people will continue
to not write, but it's oftentimes the thing they need
to say, Yeah, I'm actually really upset, and it's like, okay, cool, Well,
what's the good next step?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We don't have to keep going. Why don't we just
regroup tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
But you never know.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
It's surprisingly powerful AffA like labeling, I can imagine.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
So I think we can both agree that giving feedback
is a skill, but it also can be this social mindfield,
especially when you're giving it to a peer or even
to your boss. Like I was talking about before, you
want to be clear, you want to be useful, but
the second you open your mouth, there's that voice in
your head going, am I being too direct?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Too soft? Too much?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
What does useful feedback like actually sound like? Especially not
in charge. That's one of the hardest ones.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
This is super tough and there's never going to be
a time where it feels easy. And I think that
that's really important to acknowledge. Giving feedback is ultimately just
a really uncomfortable experience. I think there are some people
who feel really comfortable giving it, and they're the people
that are like sociopathic at work.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I love giving feedback. I give it all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
And yeah, cowering right, I wouldn't say I love giving feedback,
but I certainly got to a place with my team
I used to manage where it was really comfortable conversation. Well,
not comfortable, but it was a more comfortable conversation to
have than the norm because we'd kind of couch it
with the setup, like you were saying, I'm going to
tell you things that are really specific, really actionable because
I want you to succeed.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yes, And it really just flowed from there. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
I think you can definitely get to that. Yeah eventually. Yeah,
and most likely with a peer or bars, it's probably
going to feel more on the end of less comfortable.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But there is some things we can do.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
OK.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
The first is make sure that you actually have feedback
to give versus conflict to resolve a feeling to share.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Then identify what the expectation is.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
And with peer or boss this can be much more
challenging because it's not like you've created a job wreck
for them. And with a peer that's where I like
to proactively set some shared agreements at the start of
a quarter or at the start of a project.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Even if you.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
Haven't done that, it's totally fair to say, hey, I
made an assumption, So you can label the expectation by
saying I made an assumption.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You can even ask it as a.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Question, Hey, is it fair to assume that we could
respond to one another within a business day just working
on this project?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, that sounds awesome.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Something that's been happening is that it's taken you a
week to respond to everything, And the impact is that
my team has been really on their heels, not able
to get the work done on your timeline. That must
feel frushtrating for you. I'd love to learn more, you know,
here's the impact of the team. So you can create
a little space to co create the ex voctation and
(20:06):
then share the observation.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
What happens if you get railroad that Like, I feel
like I've been in this situation before and it was
a peer and they would just go, yeah, well I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Just really busy. So like that was the sentence.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so that's someone just hanging out in resistance.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like so take it a leave it
here I am.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, So that's totally fine.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
At the end of the day, right, this is a relationship,
and so it's like, Okay, I can appreciate that, it
sounds to me like you're really busy.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Let me just be really clear.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
About the impact of that.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
So what I'm now going to do is I'm going
to change the expectation for me and my team because
I'm not getting the information in the right timeline. And
I'll come back to you and just let you know
how I think this is going to affect the overall timeline.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Sidebar, I really like when people say they're really busy,
because my assumption is that they think the other person
isn't busy.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's like, I'm busy, Lauren, but you must not be.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
I mean we at the medival train managers. Yeah, I
cannot tell you how much of my life is devoted
to rescheduling or dealing with people who maybe late may
miss the session, have missed the session because they're busy.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's too busy, but you're not busy.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Maybe you said, what about your boss, Like is there
some way you can start that conversation if you're noticing
some things, like even if they're not giving you enough feedback,
like that's some feedback you need to give too.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Yeah, So I love the like boss toolkit because the
more proactive you are, ultimately the better it's going to
go doing the thing. Or like, hey, once a month,
i'd love to share two way feedback. Does that sound okay?
Even asking them, Hey, you know, I'm not your boss,
I don't you know know what matters to each month?
Can I just ask you where you're most keen to
get some feedback? So then it's kind of forcing them
(21:52):
to invite you to give feedback on something. They might
be shocked like, oh, let me think about it, but
at a minimum, they will come back to you. The
reality is, you know, most people do actually want feedback,
especially if they know it's coming in advance. Are two
ways that I love to tee myself fasting yeah for
success and then also asking for it. So making it
really clear I want two way feedback and I'm going
(22:15):
to be really proactive can help.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I really like feedback, like even constructive feedback. So if
I producer knows this because I ask her, I'm like, hey,
how could that be better? All the time, and I
can sense people's feedback baggage sometimes when I ask them
for feedback, and so one of the questions I really
like to ask is hey, Lauren, how would you write
how we are working together?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Out of ten? And no one says ten?
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And then you'd be like, okay, cool, So like what
would a ten look like?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's almost like they can.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Label it really clearly because they're thinking about the numbers,
and then they can apply it back to the situation.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
It also gets them out of feeling like it's a
judgment on you as a person.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
You had objectified.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
It's more, yeah, oh, let me think about this situation,
And it forces them to think about expectations.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Right, because they're probably like, oh, well a ten.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Would mean that we get this many viewers and blah
blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yes. Right, So that's a.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Brilliant way of getting them to focus on the expectations,
even if they're implied totally.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
And you could use that to start with, and then
you could be like, okay, so if that's what a
team looks like, is it okay if we give each
other feedback on these specific areas.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Exactly exactly where you go?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
I really love also asking people to kind of walk
in your shoes, So, hey, like if it were you,
what would you have done, you know, in this particular situation.
Because people love to inhabit, they can out inhabit their
own selves. Yeah, then they're giving you feedback, but they're
talking about it from their own experience. Yeah, that's a
really nice one. I love that little conversation starters. Yeah, exactly,
(23:44):
and getting them out of feeling like you're asking them
to attack you, even of course that's not what you're
trying to do.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Lay it on me.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Tell me all the things I can't do right now, reframe,
tell me what could be better?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Exactly? Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
What are the awkward, kind of messy realities of doing
feedback well and also being able to stick with it
because no one tells you.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
This feedback isn't a one off.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
It's not like, oh hey, Lauren, I just gave you
feedback and we're done now, so we'll be right for
twelve months. I think it's a muscle that you build
through repetition, And I think that's why I'm comfortable with
it now, because I've done it a lot and taught
people a lot, and so have you, so you can
candidly invite it in really yeah, and also give it.
My feeling is that the goal isn't to make feedback painless.
It's more like to make it useful along the way
(24:30):
for the person. What do you think is the best
way for people to start sticking with it and kind
of build it into the way that they work.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
I think one start with the positives. Yeah, so you
get that nice feedback loop. And when I say positive feedback,
I don't mean great job. I mean treat positive feedback
as you would constructive like negative feedback. So you know,
in this specific situation, I saw you do xyz blah
blast skill, and this is the impact it had. And
(24:56):
of course you can always say thank you. But by
sort of practicing that style of positive feedback, it also
kind of habituates both people to.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
What quality feedback actually looks and sounds like.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, so that's one, and you know, everyone kind of
wins in that particular situation.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Can I say I have this theory that people are
also almost just as uncomfortable getting compliments and positive feedback,
Like I personally cringe and try to make a joke
out of it and change the subject when someone says
something like that, I'm like, okay, anyway, moving on. So
just normalizing that as part of the appreciation of working.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
With each other I think is a good thing.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Oh, it's such a good thing because it's really just
commenting on you and your actions, just like yeah, oh
my gosh.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
So yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
So it's a great way to start to normalize. Some
other things I love is having a feedback section in
your one on one that you actually use and you
hold each other accountable both ways. It's not just like,
oh I didn't have feedby free, but oh you know,
I asked like feedback as well. Agreeing on like a theme,
because the reality is sometimes what can happen is we
(25:59):
overload people with too many different things. And so having
like a theme, you know, in a quarter or a
month that a person wants to work on and just
focusing it there. It also creates that nice like invitation, like, hey,
is there anything you want to work on this month?
I would love to make sure I can really focus
my feedback. Obviously, if anything else is blocking you from success,
I'm going to share it. Yeah, I really want to
(26:21):
supercharge you in a place where you feel like it's
aligned with your career growth.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
For managers out there.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
This is also what people want when they answer on
the Engagement Survey that you're not developing them.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yes, literally this it's only this ride with it.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But a question that comes up and they go, do
I get enough recognition at work? It's like no, because
you're not talking to me about the things I could
do better.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And so if you're like, I want to help you
in your career, what would you like to work on?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
And I will help you.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
You're probably already doing a lot of it, and now
you're just getting the credit. So that's really helpful. And
then I'll have just like a little Google doc page
where I'll just write observations about my team so that
when I get to a one on one I can
share them and on balance they're mostly positive. If I
have an observation but I don't know how to read it,
then I can note if it happens again, then I'll say, Okay, cool,
(27:09):
that's worth now saying something.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
So I think just having a kind of running log
like that can be really helpful. And then yeah, when
it comes to kind of peer and upwards feedback, I
think just saying, hey, what's something that would be helpful
for me to give you feedback on this month? At
the end, I'll plan to give it if that sounds okay,
and just kind of like getting that invitation planning. It
will help that kind of messy reality feel a little
(27:35):
bit less bad. And it'll also create a rhythm. Right,
All of these romantic be sort of practices that create.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Momentum the feedback muscle.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Yeah, that's right, because otherwise, yeah, it's just going to
fall like a lead balloon and not be motivating to
do it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
One time you gave me feedback twelve months ago, we're
both traumatized. Yeah, and never doing that again. We're doing that.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
We just won't even look at each other in the
eye when we walk past each other in the whole way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's fine. One of the things that we love to
do at the end of every.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Episode is share our out, which is one useful thing.
So if someone was to walk away from this today
and kind of go, okay, I know this someone I
need to give feedback. Like if you asked anyone, who
do you need to give feedback? So everyone could name
one person, right, Yeah, hopefully there's positive and also constructive
stuff in there. Yes, what is one useful thing that
(28:21):
someone could go to action?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
It A lot of us in feedback conversations conflict conversations
make the mistake of giving feedback sharing information before we're
really clear on what we want. This plays out in
our personal relationships as well. You're all fired up, you
come in hot, and then it's like, okay, well what
do you want?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:43):
And I think also, this is a reason why feedback
conversations can feel like they stall, right, It's like, this
is what happened in the past, but there isn't a
lot of clarity on where we go from here. Yeah,
so I would say, definitely make sure you get your
observation specific and measurable and impact driven. But then really
think about, well, what happens next, Like what does good
look like? What do you need in the relationship? What
(29:05):
do you want to see? And then so doing force
yourself to say, how can I support you? What does
it look like for us both to commit to that,
how can I check in on you? Because that's ultimately
the stuff that makes feedback actually meaningful, that it moves
the needle, And I think, yeah, if you kind of
think about what happens next, it also starts to make
(29:26):
the case for gush. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I would so much.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Rather that than where we are today.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
See into the future, what do you actually want as
a positive outcome?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
So before we're even giving feedback, now we're just going
to have a career conversation or an expectation conversation and
then let.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
It unfold from there. Exactly awesome.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So, Lauren, where can people hear more from you on this?
Because I feel like this is one of those things
where people go, Okay, great, I'm going to psych myself up.
I've done the expectation conversation. I want to give feedback.
Where can we find you?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Well, we have some lessons about feedback on the learner app.
So really excited to get the mentable and learner collaborating nice.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
We will link to those in the show notes. Check
out Lauren on LinkedIn as well. She's shares some great
tips on there all the time, so you have it.
Feedback doesn't have to be this terrifying career minefield. The
key is making it really specific, actionable, and coming from
a place where you genuinely want everyone to succeed. And
here's your takeaway. Instead of asking do you have feedback
for me? Try what's one thing I could do differently
(30:24):
next time? And you'll get a much better answer.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to VIZ your Work Life Sorted. I'm
Mburnham and today we're tackling something that makes most of
us want to hide under our desks.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's feedback.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Whether it's asking for it or giving it, feedback can
be so bloody awkward. We all know we need to grow,
but somehow it always turns into this whole thing. You
end up being way too stiff and formal, or you
try to be nice that you don't actually say anything
useful at all. So today we're figuring out how to
do feedback without making it weird, how to just ask
(00:47):
for it, how to just give it, and how to
use it to actually advance your career. Join me and
my co host LESA Lee and leadership coach Lauren Humphrey,
who's co founder at the Mintable.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey and Lauren, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be on
the show.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Can I just say this topic is so needed? It
comes up all the time in my conversations. You know,
half the time you walk away from feedback conversations thinking
was that actually helpful? Or do they secretly hate me?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
For it.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
So if you've ever found yourself avoiding those feedback conversations,
or if you want to get better at having them,
this one's for you, all right, Lauren, I want to
call something out. I think we all say we want feedback,
but the minute it shows up, we can all times
either get defensive, overthink it, or spiral or think maybe
they just hate me territory. Why do you think feedback
(01:36):
feels so intense even when it's something we might have
asked for.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
So the reality is that even if we want to grow,
we also want to be accepted. There is an amazing
author who's researched and talks about feedback called Sheila Hin
and she basically devised this theory that when it comes
to feedback, that awful feeling we always get, even if
(02:00):
we get to the good place, comes from the tension
between those two desires to grow and change and to
say yes, Lisa, I love you, don't change. And so
when we get feedback from anyone, even if it's well meaning,
even if we're actually pretty okay with it, it's still
a suggestion that you might change what you do and
(02:21):
who you are.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So that's reason one, and reason two.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Is that just in terms of how we process information
about ourselves, there's kind of always any time you're getting
information that's different to what you think going to be
a bit of a psychological process, and researchers have kind
of broken it down into four stages. So the first
is shock or surprise, depending on what the feedback is.
(02:46):
Then it's anger or at least anxiety that's viral you
talked about, Then resistance like no, it's not true, and
then finally acceptance. They call it the Sarah model and
the beauty of the Sarah model. And realizing that this
happens anytime you get feedback is that it sort of
normalizes that experience internal for yourself. It also normalizes the
(03:07):
experience if you're observing it in someone you've just given
feedback to. Yeah, So instead of expecting that someone's going
to like get feedback and just be like, yes, I'm transformed,
instead realizing they're going to go through a process, you
can start to look for the shock, anxiety, resistance, and
acceptance and even help them through it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
I think knowing your own experience with it and that
we all go through it can sometimes also be while
we hold back from giving feedback because we don't want
to hurt that person. From my experience, I think most
people aren't scared of feedback. They're actually really just scared
of finding out they're not as good as they hoped.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Yeah, definitely, there's that, you know, sort of desire to
be loved and validated and approved for who you are,
and it's just that feeling of oh, maybe, yeah, my
ideas about myself aren't true. My business, the mentable, we
train lots and lots of managers and most of them
hold back from feedback because of their fear about.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
What the other person is going to do or think.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yes, And we'll often coach and say, well, what story
telling yourself about that?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Like what's actually going to happen?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
And sure, every so often you do get the dramatic
crying or anger, but more often than not, you just
watch someone go through that kind of four stage process, the.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Process yeah, of expecting.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
One of the things I used to say to managers
I would work with was, no one is turning up
to work trying to do a shit job, Like they're
not going, Hey, let's go to work. It's Wednesday. I'm
going to do the shittest job I can possibly do here,
everyone's coming at it with good intentions, So go into
the feedback knowing they have good intention.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Yes, exactly, And I think a couple of other things
that can be really helpful. So one other reason that
feedback can feel just so intense and heavy is this
feeling as a giver that you've got to get it right.
Oh yeah, like I'm putting this in bunny years, and
you know you can even you know, talking to your
partner or your roommates at.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Home, like do you see it? Do you see it?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
By the time you're like trying to build a case
and figure out if you've got it right. It's too
that you need to have shared the feedback earlier, because
no feedback is the truth. Certainly, if you're a manager
and there's something you expect to see, that's as close.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
To the truth as you can get.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
But even there, I would coach, you've got to offer
it as observations. You don't know the full picture of
what's happening. So I think that's another reason, yeah, why
it can feel so intense and instead if it's framed
as hey, I have some observations I want to share
that could help you be better or that could help
you close a gap that you perceive kind of takes
(05:29):
that pressure off. It's like, I'm just trying to share
something that I think will help.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
As opposed to the word this is gospel. I think
that's a truth bomb in itself. Rod is that you go,
my feedback is fect and nothing else can be happening.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And that's when it feels quite aggressive and forced on you.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That's where you get the big reactions.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
And the other case where you get big reactions. And
I think why feedback can feel scary and you know,
sort of emotionally charged, is that people confuse feedback with
the other F word, which is feelings. Oftentimes we think
we have feedback first someone, but really we have conflict
to resolve.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So tell me more about that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
So let's say you have a boss, right, so you're
not necessarily even the one in charge. We have a boss,
and they've been cutting you off in meetings, yeah, and
maybe letting someone else speak, and it's kind of built
up and in your head it's starting to feel like feedback. Yeah,
I've got some feedback. I can't handle this anymore. They
don't respect me, right, and you're kind of building this
(06:32):
case about what they're doing and thinking their intent. The
reality is that you just have feelings that you need
to share. So instead of I've got some feedback that
you know, you shouldn't cut me off, it's hey, a
couple of times I have felt unheard and like my
ideas don't matter as much because you skipped to the
(06:54):
next person or didn't call on me.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, that's not feedback.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
That's feelings and an invitation if it's done right, to say,
what's your perspective and would you be willing to help
me feel more involved?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So yes, yeah, right, Like, ah, feels so much more doable.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
So much more doable. But sometimes we are. We confuse
feedback with feelings. I eat conflict, and so I think
that's another really important thing to suss out.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's like, how can I figure that out in my head?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Though? Like what can I ask myself or something? If
I'm trying to work out if it's a feedback thing
or a feelings thing.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
My kind of ticket to feedback the thing that I
feel like I don't have a right to give feedback
unless I have this thing is a clear expectation in place.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Oh yes, Oh my gosh. If people would only just
set expectations clearly. Then I've said this before, we wouldn't
be having to give feedback or have the hard conversations
because we've done the work up front.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
So expectation is like you could also say commitment an
agreement and by the way, commitment could be like values
at our company.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
That is an agreement. It's implied, but it's an agreement.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Shared understanding exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
So if I have an expectation in place and the
person has committed to that and they know it, then yes,
then it's typically going to be a feedback conversation because
the idea is I'm giving feedback. I'm sharing observations to
help you achieve the thing we agreed upon. Now, if
it's a situation where it seems like there could be
(08:24):
a shared expectation, yeah, but I'm actually not sure, then
the first thing I do is clarify are we seeing
and committed to the same expectation? Yeah, Because a lot
of times as a manager, I've thought I was going
to go in hot on feedback, then it just ends
up being a conversation about clarity about the expectation or commitment. Yeah,
oh okay, Yeah, you had no idea or yeah, you
(08:47):
knew that you just don't agree with this expectation.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
And finally, if I do feel that feeling and like
I have something to say but there's no expectation, and
generally it's conflict, I have a feeling that we need.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
To work through.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, okay, that's a really great distinction. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I've been thinking about that model that you shared earlier.
And one of the things I think, you know, makes
feedback feel really icky is that you psyched yourself up
and you gave the feedback it may be landed, and
then nothing changed. The person kept doing the thing, they
kept talking over you in the meeting, or they kept
not hitting deadlines. Then I think people go, well, what's
the point?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Yes, kind of like the unanswered yeah back. Look, that
can be really challenging. And the reality is that, you know,
some people stay stuck in that process yeah and haven't
actually come out to acceptance. So sometimes people get that
kind of sort of experience that you've had because the
other person just hasn't finished the process and gotten to acceptance. Yeah,
(09:49):
they're just doing and anxiety or especially as a manager,
but I think its just a human that wants to
help other humans, you can check in and say, hey, like,
where are you at?
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I shared this feedback? Where are you up to? Are
you still thinking on it? Code for like the anxiety spiral?
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Yes, any hesitations or any sort of follow ups that
you wanted to work out? Is there anything I can
do to get you to those next steps we talked about?
That's that acceptance bit. Okay, So once you know that
kind of Sarah model, you can basically engage people to
sass out where they are and help bring them through.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Is there something How often you should be giving people feedback?
Because I used to have these.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Challenges where managers would drop truth bombs at a performance
review and then of course, like emotions escalated, total surprise.
Why have you never told me this before? How often
should I be giving feedback to someone?
Speaker 5 (10:43):
I studied a couple of years ago found that like
sixty percent of employees want feedback on I think it's
like a weekly basis, And then for people under thirty
so gen Z, it jumped up to seventy two percent.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So people want feedback, And look, I don't.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Think that seventy two percent. Yeah, that's huge.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
And look the thing is, I don't think that people
want huge heavy performance review feedback conversation once a week.
That would be insane. Yeah, but I think the idea
behind it is if you just get observations that can
kind of help you improve along the way, then it
doesn't become the big f word feedback conversations. It's just
I literally just want input along the way so I
(11:22):
do a good job.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
They're almost like nudges of that seventy two percent that
you said, though, like, what's a breakdown in terms of
like positive reinforcement keep doing that versus hey, here's something
you need to change now.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
At the end of the day, recognition and appreciation is
one of the top three drivers of performance, the attention,
low turnover, productivity. I mean, one study of an airline
found that recognition and appreciation mattered more than compensation.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
So yeah, basically the effects of recognition were higher than
sort of dollar bonuses.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I totally get that.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I've seen like managers go that was a good preso
mate anyway, and like, oh yeah, I did some feedback
and like that's on feedback.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
How do they how do they use it? How do
they repeat that? It feels so generic.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
Too, Yes, exactly, So I think I'm always a big
believer that you should lead with positive feedback, and a
study out of Harvard found that ideally, you know, sort
of a relationship was like a bank account that you
would have five deposits of positive feedback in for every
withdrawal like negative.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And that's not, by the way, the shit sandwich.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
They completely separate, but you have got.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
To take that off the menu.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
But that is more a relationship bank, right, because ultimately,
feedback isn't given in the context of a transaction. It's
given in the context of a relationship. And so the
idea behind positive feedback and recognition and appreciation is you
build the goodwill so that when you go to say
I wish you could change something, it's going to be
better received. Obviously, if someone's not performing well, then that's
(12:48):
going to be a different ratio. So the idea is
just on a weekly basis, it's less about I have
feedback and more, hey, here's the expectations. Here's some observations
for what you can keep doing because you're absolutely killing it.
And here's maybe one thing that you could work on
again to achieve the expectation. And if it's a peer
the expectations aren't necessarily as explicit. You can even say
(13:11):
at the beginning of the quarter, like, Hey, what's one
thing we want to work on and what's our most
important goal? Can we give each other feedback on this,
because I'd love for us both to win.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Yeah, that open invitation.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
I also really like what you're saying there around that
feedback is actually connected to the relationship. There are so
many people who talk about wanting to build more trust
into their relationships at work or even just wanting to
generally improve the relationship, and feedback can be a great
place to start that by opening that conversation.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
I mean one of the biggest motivators for me when
it comes to tough feedback is imagining what the person
would say if I told them the same thing three
months down the road, when it's no longer a situation
that can really be fixed.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And look, I've.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Done that, I've made that mistake. And no one's perfect
at feedback, no one will ever be. But that's such
a motivator because nothing breaks trust in a relationship than
that moment of oh, wait, how long I've been doing
this or how long have you been feeling this way?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah? Then holding back from feedback yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I think there's more to add to this as well,
in the sense that I remember this one time giving
feedback to my boss and look, maybe I didn't deliver
it the best way in the best forum. He called
me afterwards and like rooped shreds off me to the
point where I was crying on the phone. How do
you reckon that trust and that relationship was after that,
I'm like, well, I can obviously not give you feedback again.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yes, well, I.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Could learn some things around the ways a little bit,
I'm sure, but this does not feel like a safe
relationship where we're going to candidly give each other feedback now.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
No, And look, who knows when this happened, But at
some point we were sort of given the memo that
feelings don't have a place at work.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Oh yeah, sorry, I was crying on the phone.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
And the funny thing is feelings are like the OG
data point. We basically as humans evolved to have feeling.
The human body doesn't evolve to have much that doesn't
serve like flighter fight is the OG feelings, and so
the idea is like, as a human, you literally cannot
stop from feeling. But when we're told to stuff them down.
(15:15):
It kind of can create a culture where people do
fly off the handle. Now, look, I'm not saying you
should necessarily cry at work meetings, right, that's also you
not regulating your feelings. So I think a lot of
negative feedback experiences come from disregulated adults.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
Yeah, for sure, the fear that comes from doing it
again because you don't know how someone's going.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
To react exactly.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And so one of the things that I love teaching
is this practice called affect labeling. And I promise I'm
going to help former Lisa in a minute with this,
but essentially what it is is that neuroscientists have found
that you can reduce the intensity of an emotion.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
By labeling it.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Now, it doesn't really work for situations like being at
a coffee shop and like being cranky about being in line,
because it's of asa, it's low stakes, and if you
label it like okay, you're kind of now over dramatizing, yes,
But for situations where genuinely or feeling something really strongly,
the idea is it's a simple as labeling specifically what
you're feeling, and that basically tells the amygdala to chill
(16:11):
out and brings the feelings down. Now, going back to
former Lisa, who boss was turn bucket. If you're ever
in a situation like that, you've given feedback and now
you're sort of getting the wrath, it's okay to say
I can see that you're having a hard reaction to
this to my boss.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yep, that feels like a really intense thing to be
able to say.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Yeah, I can see that you're having a hard reaction
to this. Look, they might continue to go on, but
it can be just enough to trigger that process of
forcing them to label the feeling that they're having. Because
it's no less intense for them to call you screaming.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, and it's it's a sentence.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
They might continue to go on screaming, but what it
does is triggers that sort of affect labeling moment.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
I know it's an intense.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Thing, but I'm smiling love because I'm im measuring myself
saying it to that person and them just like like
completely losing their shit more.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
But for the average.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Person, I feel like it might just like put a
pause in the conversation and be.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Like, yeah, you're right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
And like if you're a manager and someone's having a
hard time, like crying or shutting down. It can be
just that they need you know, some people will continue
to not write, but it's oftentimes the thing they need
to say, Yeah, I'm actually really upset, and it's like, okay, cool, Well,
what's the good next step?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We don't have to keep going. Why don't we just
regroup tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
But you never know.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
It's surprisingly powerful AffA like labeling, I can imagine.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
So I think we can both agree that giving feedback
is a skill, but it also can be this social mindfield,
especially when you're giving it to a peer or even
to your boss. Like I was talking about before, you
want to be clear, you want to be useful, but
the second you open your mouth, there's that voice in
your head going, am I being too direct?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Too soft? Too much?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
What does useful feedback like actually sound like? Especially not
in charge. That's one of the hardest ones.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
This is super tough and there's never going to be
a time where it feels easy. And I think that
that's really important to acknowledge. Giving feedback is ultimately just
a really uncomfortable experience. I think there are some people
who feel really comfortable giving it, and they're the people
that are like sociopathic at work.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I love giving feedback. I give it all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
And yeah, cowering right, I wouldn't say I love giving feedback,
but I certainly got to a place with my team
I used to manage where it was really comfortable conversation. Well,
not comfortable, but it was a more comfortable conversation to
have than the norm because we'd kind of couch it
with the setup, like you were saying, I'm going to
tell you things that are really specific, really actionable because
I want you to succeed.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yes, And it really just flowed from there. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
I think you can definitely get to that. Yeah eventually. Yeah,
and most likely with a peer or bars, it's probably
going to feel more on the end of less comfortable.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
But there is some things we can do.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
OK.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
The first is make sure that you actually have feedback
to give versus conflict to resolve a feeling to share.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Then identify what the expectation is.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
And with peer or boss this can be much more
challenging because it's not like you've created a job wreck
for them. And with a peer that's where I like
to proactively set some shared agreements at the start of
a quarter or at the start of a project.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Even if you.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
Haven't done that, it's totally fair to say, hey, I
made an assumption, So you can label the expectation by
saying I made an assumption.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You can even ask it as a.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Question, Hey, is it fair to assume that we could
respond to one another within a business day just working
on this project?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, that sounds awesome.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Something that's been happening is that it's taken you a
week to respond to everything, And the impact is that
my team has been really on their heels, not able
to get the work done on your timeline. That must
feel frushtrating for you. I'd love to learn more, you know,
here's the impact of the team. So you can create
a little space to co create the ex voctation and
(20:06):
then share the observation.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
What happens if you get railroad that Like, I feel
like I've been in this situation before and it was
a peer and they would just go, yeah, well I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Just really busy. So like that was the sentence.
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Yeah, okay, yeah, so that's someone just hanging out in resistance.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like so take it a leave it
here I am.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, So that's totally fine.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
At the end of the day, right, this is a relationship,
and so it's like, Okay, I can appreciate that, it
sounds to me like you're really busy.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Let me just be really clear.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
About the impact of that.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
So what I'm now going to do is I'm going
to change the expectation for me and my team because
I'm not getting the information in the right timeline. And
I'll come back to you and just let you know
how I think this is going to affect the overall timeline.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Sidebar, I really like when people say they're really busy,
because my assumption is that they think the other person
isn't busy.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's like, I'm busy, Lauren, but you must not be.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
I mean we at the medival train managers. Yeah, I
cannot tell you how much of my life is devoted
to rescheduling or dealing with people who maybe late may
miss the session, have missed the session because they're busy.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It's too busy, but you're not busy.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Maybe you said, what about your boss, Like is there
some way you can start that conversation if you're noticing
some things, like even if they're not giving you enough feedback,
like that's some feedback you need to give too.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Yeah, So I love the like boss toolkit because the
more proactive you are, ultimately the better it's going to
go doing the thing. Or like, hey, once a month,
i'd love to share two way feedback. Does that sound okay?
Even asking them, Hey, you know, I'm not your boss,
I don't you know know what matters to each month?
Can I just ask you where you're most keen to
get some feedback? So then it's kind of forcing them
(21:52):
to invite you to give feedback on something. They might
be shocked like, oh, let me think about it, but
at a minimum, they will come back to you. The
reality is, you know, most people do actually want feedback,
especially if they know it's coming in advance. Are two
ways that I love to tee myself fasting yeah for
success and then also asking for it. So making it
really clear I want two way feedback and I'm going
(22:15):
to be really proactive can help.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I really like feedback, like even constructive feedback. So if
I producer knows this because I ask her, I'm like, hey,
how could that be better? All the time, and I
can sense people's feedback baggage sometimes when I ask them
for feedback, and so one of the questions I really
like to ask is hey, Lauren, how would you write
how we are working together?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Out of ten? And no one says ten?
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And then you'd be like, okay, cool, So like what
would a ten look like?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's almost like they can.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Label it really clearly because they're thinking about the numbers,
and then they can apply it back to the situation.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
It also gets them out of feeling like it's a
judgment on you as a person.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
You had objectified.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
It's more, yeah, oh, let me think about this situation,
And it forces them to think about expectations.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Right, because they're probably like, oh, well a ten.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Would mean that we get this many viewers and blah
blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yes. Right, So that's a.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Brilliant way of getting them to focus on the expectations,
even if they're implied totally.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
And you could use that to start with, and then
you could be like, okay, so if that's what a
team looks like, is it okay if we give each
other feedback on these specific areas.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Exactly exactly where you go?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
I really love also asking people to kind of walk
in your shoes, So, hey, like if it were you,
what would you have done, you know, in this particular situation.
Because people love to inhabit, they can out inhabit their
own selves. Yeah, then they're giving you feedback, but they're
talking about it from their own experience. Yeah, that's a
really nice one. I love that little conversation starters. Yeah, exactly,
(23:44):
and getting them out of feeling like you're asking them
to attack you, even of course that's not what you're
trying to do.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Lay it on me.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Tell me all the things I can't do right now, reframe,
tell me what could be better?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Exactly? Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
What are the awkward, kind of messy realities of doing
feedback well and also being able to stick with it
because no one tells you.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
This feedback isn't a one off.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
It's not like, oh hey, Lauren, I just gave you
feedback and we're done now, so we'll be right for
twelve months. I think it's a muscle that you build
through repetition, And I think that's why I'm comfortable with
it now, because I've done it a lot and taught
people a lot, and so have you, so you can
candidly invite it in really yeah, and also give it.
My feeling is that the goal isn't to make feedback painless.
It's more like to make it useful along the way
(24:30):
for the person. What do you think is the best
way for people to start sticking with it and kind
of build it into the way that they work.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
I think one start with the positives. Yeah, so you
get that nice feedback loop. And when I say positive feedback,
I don't mean great job. I mean treat positive feedback
as you would constructive like negative feedback. So you know,
in this specific situation, I saw you do xyz blah
blast skill, and this is the impact it had. And
(24:56):
of course you can always say thank you. But by
sort of practicing that style of positive feedback, it also
kind of habituates both people to.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
What quality feedback actually looks and sounds like.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, so that's one, and you know, everyone kind of
wins in that particular situation.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Can I say I have this theory that people are
also almost just as uncomfortable getting compliments and positive feedback,
Like I personally cringe and try to make a joke
out of it and change the subject when someone says
something like that, I'm like, okay, anyway, moving on. So
just normalizing that as part of the appreciation of working.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
With each other I think is a good thing.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Oh, it's such a good thing because it's really just
commenting on you and your actions, just like yeah, oh
my gosh.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
So yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
So it's a great way to start to normalize. Some
other things I love is having a feedback section in
your one on one that you actually use and you
hold each other accountable both ways. It's not just like,
oh I didn't have feedby free, but oh you know,
I asked like feedback as well. Agreeing on like a theme,
because the reality is sometimes what can happen is we
(25:59):
overload people with too many different things. And so having
like a theme, you know, in a quarter or a
month that a person wants to work on and just
focusing it there. It also creates that nice like invitation, like, hey,
is there anything you want to work on this month?
I would love to make sure I can really focus
my feedback. Obviously, if anything else is blocking you from success,
I'm going to share it. Yeah, I really want to
(26:21):
supercharge you in a place where you feel like it's
aligned with your career growth.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
For managers out there.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
This is also what people want when they answer on
the Engagement Survey that you're not developing them.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yes, literally this it's only this ride with it.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But a question that comes up and they go, do
I get enough recognition at work? It's like no, because
you're not talking to me about the things I could
do better.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And so if you're like, I want to help you
in your career, what would you like to work on?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
And I will help you.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
You're probably already doing a lot of it, and now
you're just getting the credit. So that's really helpful. And
then I'll have just like a little Google doc page
where I'll just write observations about my team so that
when I get to a one on one I can
share them and on balance they're mostly positive. If I
have an observation but I don't know how to read it,
then I can note if it happens again, then I'll say, Okay, cool,
(27:09):
that's worth now saying something.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
So I think just having a kind of running log
like that can be really helpful. And then yeah, when
it comes to kind of peer and upwards feedback, I
think just saying, hey, what's something that would be helpful
for me to give you feedback on this month? At
the end, I'll plan to give it if that sounds okay,
and just kind of like getting that invitation planning. It
will help that kind of messy reality feel a little
(27:35):
bit less bad. And it'll also create a rhythm. Right,
All of these romantic be sort of practices that create.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Momentum the feedback muscle.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Yeah, that's right, because otherwise, yeah, it's just going to
fall like a lead balloon and not be motivating to
do it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
One time you gave me feedback twelve months ago, we're
both traumatized. Yeah, and never doing that again. We're doing that.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
We just won't even look at each other in the
eye when we walk past each other in the whole way.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's fine. One of the things that we love to
do at the end of every.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Episode is share our out, which is one useful thing.
So if someone was to walk away from this today
and kind of go, okay, I know this someone I
need to give feedback. Like if you asked anyone, who
do you need to give feedback? So everyone could name
one person, right, Yeah, hopefully there's positive and also constructive
stuff in there. Yes, what is one useful thing that
(28:21):
someone could go to action?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
It A lot of us in feedback conversations conflict conversations
make the mistake of giving feedback sharing information before we're
really clear on what we want. This plays out in
our personal relationships as well. You're all fired up, you
come in hot, and then it's like, okay, well what
do you want?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (28:43):
And I think also, this is a reason why feedback
conversations can feel like they stall, right, It's like, this
is what happened in the past, but there isn't a
lot of clarity on where we go from here. Yeah,
so I would say, definitely make sure you get your
observation specific and measurable and impact driven. But then really
think about, well, what happens next, Like what does good
look like? What do you need in the relationship? What
(29:05):
do you want to see? And then so doing force
yourself to say, how can I support you? What does
it look like for us both to commit to that,
how can I check in on you? Because that's ultimately
the stuff that makes feedback actually meaningful, that it moves
the needle, And I think, yeah, if you kind of
think about what happens next, it also starts to make
(29:26):
the case for gush. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I would so much.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Rather that than where we are today.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
See into the future, what do you actually want as
a positive outcome?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
So before we're even giving feedback, now we're just going
to have a career conversation or an expectation conversation and
then let.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
It unfold from there. Exactly awesome.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So, Lauren, where can people hear more from you on this?
Because I feel like this is one of those things
where people go, Okay, great, I'm going to psych myself up.
I've done the expectation conversation. I want to give feedback.
Where can we find you?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
Well, we have some lessons about feedback on the learner app.
So really excited to get the mentable and learner collaborating nice.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
We will link to those in the show notes. Check
out Lauren on LinkedIn as well. She's shares some great
tips on there all the time, so you have it.
Feedback doesn't have to be this terrifying career minefield. The
key is making it really specific, actionable, and coming from
a place where you genuinely want everyone to succeed. And
here's your takeaway. Instead of asking do you have feedback
for me? Try what's one thing I could do differently
(30:24):
next time? And you'll get a much better answer.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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