September 15, 2025 • 32 mins
Public speaking. Presentations. Speaking up in meetings. It's the stuff of sweaty palms and racing thoughts, and yet, we're all expected to be good at it.
Let's be honest - most of us would rather do literally anything else than stand up and speak in front of people. The pressure to "sound confident" when you're internally screaming can feel paralysing. But here's the thing: you don't have to pretend to be someone you're not to get better at this.
This week, Lisa and Em get honest about the fear so many of us feel when it comes to using our voice at work. Whether it's a team meeting, a client pitch, or standing on stage with a microphone, they're sharing their own journeys - from awkward silences to the strategies that actually work.
What you'll learn:
• The public speaking confidence ladder - how to work your way up from "terrified to speak in meetings" to actual presentations
• Why recording yourself (audio only) is genuinely life-changing practice
• The "headline, proof, connection" structure that stops you rambling
• How to recover when your brain completely abandons you mid-speech
• Real talk on the classics: saying "um," blanking, and speaking way too fast
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
Resources Mentioned:
'Why your skills have an expiry date, and what to do about it' with Andrea ClarkeTalk like TED by Carmine Gallo
'Managing nerves when presenting' in Learna.Tell stories that stick' in Learna.How to sell ideas' in Learna.'How to structure your thoughts under pressure' in Learna.
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Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to BIZ Your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm m Vernon and I'm Lesai. I'm a former head
of People in Culture, an organizational coach, and the founder
of Learner, a micro learning app that helps you learn
the people skills to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, for this episode, we need some people skills. Yes,
we do, because I feel like everyone's been in this position,
whether it's a presentation or just speaking up in meetings
or even doing like a public speaking gig. A lot
of people, it's exciting speaking up.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
For me, it's exciting. It's exciting.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was going to say, and to those people, I say,
you're liars.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, I'm weird. But it's taken me a while
to get to the exciting levels. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, Because I think majority of people, especially people who
aren't used to it and have to do it as
a one off, it is probably the most nerve racking
experience a person has ever gone through.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think the pressure to sound confident can actually make
it worse. I've had plenty of moments where my hands
were shaking or my brain went totally blank and I
freaked and after years of doing all this training in
this space on myself, I really think that confidence in
public speaking and in any setting is something you can build,
like it's a real skill.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's so true, and it's also just really annoying advice
when someone's just like just be confident and you're like, okay, sure,
thanks you so much, I can fix everything.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So this episode, we're actually going to give you practical
tips that you can actually apply to any situation, whether
it's what I said before, like speaking up in meetings
or actually doing a public speaking gig to build that confidence,
because it doesn't come naturally for everyone. So, Lise, you
did a survey on your LinkedIn because we wanted to
(01:56):
know exactly because both of us do a lot of
public speaking, a lot of presentations, so we want to
know exactly what the core dilemmas are when it comes
to people to public speak for the first time. What
were your findings.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Twenty seven percent of you yeah said I say um
too much and I hard relate to this. I actually
had no idea I was doing it until someone pointed
it out to me. Seventeen percent say I'll ramble and
lose my point. Me I've seen that happen. Twenty one
percent of you said, I blank and forget what to say. Now,
I could never relate to this, but about six months
ago it happened to me mid flow, and it never
(02:29):
happened to me before, and it is the most terrifying
thing when it happens. Oh, like my brain doesn't work anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, what happened.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And then thirty five percent of you said, I rush
and speak too fast.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Okay, So I think so many people experience at least
one of these or all of these. I know I've
definitely been in a position where I've done all of these,
even the like saying I say it in my like
everyday language, it's either or like I constantly say it yeah,
And then every time someone pulls me up on it,
because they're pulling me up on it so many times,
it gets even more annoying.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Really, see, I find I'm more conscious of it. Then
I start pausing and stopping, like, don't say don't you just.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Have to be in the silence. So now that we
know exactly what's freaking us all out, and I feel
like it's a lot of common things we're going to
dive into. Actually, how to fix these things and get
over this. So I think when people hear the phrase
public speaking, they picture like Ted talk. Right, You're on
stage with the microphone, with the presentation, you're not looking
(03:25):
at any notes, and you're speaking to like thousands and
thousands of people. I've had to do that recently, but
it's not something that everyone does, and I think it's
important to remember that public speaking can be brought down
many many levels, like even just having a one on
one where you're like rehearsing a presentation for someone that
counts as public.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Spit one hundred percent does. And so through this I
want to talk you through like a bit of a
public speaking confidence ladder and how you can start to
build that skill throughout as well. I think it's also
what you're saying there. It's like the worst place to
start if you're trying to build confidence. Like you wouldn't
start a fitness journey by going I'm doing a marathon, right,
like you start with I'm going to run one kilometer
around the block. The same thing applies with speaking. Yeah,
(04:04):
absolutely the same.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So you've done a lot of training in the public
speaking space.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I have now I actually don't normally share this or
talk about it, because I think it makes people assume
or worse, think that I think I'm a really good speaker,
because I'm not. I'm a working progress. But I actually
just really enjoy it. So when I was growing up,
I did nine years of weekly elocution classes. What is
that if you haven't come across it before. Elocution is
basically the art of public speaking. Oh, when you were
(04:32):
growing up from eight till seventeen, eight years old until.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Something, your parents were just like you're doing this or
you're like I want to do this?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh god, no, I didn't want to do it. I
was so shy. I love books, you know, like, we've
got to give her something that will build confidence. And
then as I started to do it, obviously I started
to enjoy it. Yeah, so did that. So that gave
me a really good child prodigy of public speaking public speaking,
went to public speaking school. I've also had one on
one coaching in public speaking because I obviously do a
lot through work, and I did a lot previously in
(05:01):
a lot of my other roles. I've spoken on stage
at Carriage Works to a thousand people. I know you
also done some large crowds too, and then I took
it to the next level this year and I went
to NIER and learned all about public speaking there. Oh wow, Yeah, Yeah,
it was really really interesting. And this is more about
learning the craft. So that makes me sound like this
(05:21):
walking ted talk, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
She loves speaking.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I just like speaking. I'm also pretty comfortable with public
speaking now and I actually enjoy it. So I still
get nervous though, I'll still rasha, I'll still brain blank
at times. So I want you to know you can
do all the training in the world and will gradually
make you feel more comfortable, but the nerves just tell
you that you're excited and you're interested in it, right.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And the reason I think it's worth sharing today is
so you have some idea where some of my tips
are coming from, because some of them will be a
little bit technical in terms of the preparation, etc. And
you and I were talking about this earlier. Remember m
everyone sees the end product, Yeah, and you want to
know the process of how someone gets there and gets
up in stage or gets into that meeting and delivers. Yeah,
So we're going to talk a little bit about the process.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Which I'm really excited about because I feel like when
it comes to public speaking, it is still nerve racking,
even for the biggest public speakers in the world, and
going through the process is quite vulnerable because you're actually
having to show yourself that, oh, I am not prepared
until I am prepared, and like talking through that process,
I always get my back up a little bit because
(06:25):
I'm like, oh, I don't want you to know see
me broken down in this part. I want you to
just see what I look like on stage at the
end level. But it is so important to know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It feels really personal too as well when you're delivering,
because there's nothing to give feedback on apart from how
you personally are delivering. Yeah, have you done a bit
of training or have you self taught? Have you watched
people like? Have you got had some coaching?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I haven't done any training. The only training I've done
is my mom's a really good public speaker. She got
that from my nana who's also a public speaker. And
it was more just like one on one I guess training.
Every time I had to do a speech at school
or a presentation or a group preso, they'd always force
me to do it in front of them.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yes, that's good. You probably take that now.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
It's so good. But when I was younger, I was like,
I would avoid telling them I had a presentation coming
up because I knew they'd make me do it in
front of them, Like I'd avoid it at all.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
How much do you thank them now? I'm very thankful
now for the elocution lessons. Yea.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It was the best thing they've ever done for me.
I mean, they've done great things for me, but.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That was the best best. You can tangibly use that
today in your job, and you think of them when
you do it, right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, But it is like, especially when you're so vulnerable
about what you're speaking about, and plus you're in a
vulnerable position just in general, having someone give you that
direct feedback on the way you talk and the way
you present and what you're saying and what you shouldn't
be saying and what you should be saying instead, it's
so hard to not take it personally.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, it's kind of like a performance review, it is, Yeah,
but a performance review on you on stage.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And you're just standing there by yourself and they're just
sitting there.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
In front of you exactly. But I think what we
want you to know out of this is that there
are small, gradual things you can do to make yourself
feel more comfortable with it and also just gradually get
better and enjoy it. If people walked away from this
and started to enjoy public speaking a bit more like
that'd be a great thing.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Oh my god, how good for the world.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So we're going to help you build that muscle memory
and get you doing it because I think the more
that you can find some low stakes ways to speak up, yeah,
the less it's about this big moment and this big reveal. Yeah.
So I'll talked about it before. Let's talk about the
public speaking confidence ladder. Okay, some steps you can kind
of take, so low stakes first, Yeah, this is where
you want to flex your muscle in safe spaces. And
(08:32):
you're talking about this before with the meeting thing, right,
so you could start with contribution first challenges. What I
mean by that is that you know, if you're in
a meeting and you're like, I should say something, and
if you don't say something up front, and you sit
there for like forty minutes and you're waiting, all you're
thinking about is like I will say something. I need
to say something.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
You're not taking in anything else that's happening in.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
The middle of thing, right, and the nerves build up,
so by the time you speak, you're like, oh shit.
If you can speak up once in every meeting and
try and do it as early as possible, what happens
then is you get your voice out and you can
get it heard, and then you're like, oh, that wasn't
that bad. Maybe I have something else to say, Yeah,
and I'll say it again later. So that's a version
of public speaking.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You can also rehearse in low pressure environment. So try
running it past a mum, a team member, nana, whoever
that might be, who can give you some feedback and
it doesn't feel confrontational or like a performance review where
you're standing in front of them. Yeah, that's a good
way to do it. And the other point is for
low stakes And I do this all the time. I
record myself so voice note Ooh, So if I know
(09:32):
that I'm going to deliver a presentation or public speaking
or a really high stakes meeting, I will record a
voice memo and then I'll play it back. Because when
you take out the visual, right and you just listen
to what's going on, you start to hear pacing, so
I'm going too fast. Start to hear filler words as well, ye,
the likes and everything. You also hear what's called upward inflection,
(09:55):
which you would know is like when every sentence sounds
like it's a question, yeah, yeah, and this and is
is it right? Yes? That's the stuff you start to
spot just by listening, taking out all the visuals and stuff,
listen to yourself back. So there's some low stakes ways
you can start to build that muscle. Is there anything
low stakes you've done when you were starting out when
you're like, Okay, I need to just kind of rehearse
(10:17):
and practice here.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Oh yeah, There's been a few, and it's a lot
of things that I've had to learn on the way
while doing it, because I do want to say, like,
even if it's your first time speaking up in a
meeting or doing a presentation, it's not going to be
the best, no, because you get better as you do it.
It's like a muscle, like you have to constantly practice
and get better. And there's just been so many times
(10:40):
where I've presented and it's just not landed. And it's
usually those certain situations where it sticks with you at
like three am and you suddenly remember and you're like,
oh my god, remember when I did that shitty joke
and no one laughed. Yes, so embarrassing. If you do
that all the time and you have more and more
of that, it's not going to be the one off
where you're just constantly thinking about Like I just want
(11:00):
to tell everyone that you will fumble and like mess
up multiple times more you do it because you're just
putting yourself out there more. But while you're doing that,
you're also getting better. Yes, I also, which I don't
know if it was like a bit of a red flag,
but if I am presenting in front of like a
big team and it's like a boardroom or something, yeah,
I don't wear my glasses because I need glasses for
(11:22):
like distance. Yeah I can't actually see their faces because
throws me. And this happened recently at an award show
where I was accepting an award and I was like
talking and it was like such a low stakes presentation,
but you're still presenting, like you're still thanking people for
the award and thanking the company and thanking your bosses,
and the table right in front of me, we're just
(11:43):
talking so loudly to each other, like passing each other
plates cutting their state while I was talking. Oh and
this was after the out loud show, Like after I
did a presentation for like thousands of people and it
was just a group of five people, and I completely
went blank because all I could see was them just
not engaging me at all, not make eye contacts, and
I was just like, oh my god, like I'm so boring.
(12:05):
You get in your hand immediately. Yes, in those situations,
find one person who's looking at you. I know there
will be one at least one. Yeah, find them. Hone
in on them, and you will just suddenly get that
boost of confidence and you'll get back on track.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
That's my Grandda. And those people at the table, you
would be like, in your head, you are so rude,
Like I measure if you were up here and I
was having to listen.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I'm sorry you didn't win the award.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
But find me in the room. I am always sitting
there like so respectful, looking at the person and like
locking in. I'm like, you got this, which is another tip.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
No matter who's presenting in front of you, just know
everyone's in the same boat, like everyone's nervous. Give them
the time of day, watch them, look at them, engage
with them, No, be a character for them, because it
is so comforting being on stage when you see someone
who's actually engaged in what you're saying and who's like
nodding along, and it's something so simple you can do
(12:53):
and it just helps so much.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I love that bit of public speaking karma because you
will be the other person up there on the stage
one day and you will want that person along. So
let's move to midstake. So say you're comfortable in that
kind of setting, what you want to do next is
probably add a little bit of complexity and unpredictability, So
you go no notes, so present for two to three
(13:15):
minutes without relying on slides or notes. Just focus on
your structure and your flow for that. So that would
be your next level of testing yourself out. The other
one could be take questions by choice, so you can
prepare for a meeting and you can prepare for a presentation.
But when you take questions at the end and go
has anyone got questions? Whole? There goes the unpredictability. I
don't know what EM's going to say, you don't know
(13:36):
what's it's going to ask me, and so that is
almost like public speaking on the spot, but in a
small way. Right, you're answering one question.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
The next thing you could do is start to change
the audience mix. So get like a cross functional group
or people that you don't normally present with or know
very well, and get them in so you get a
different crowd of people that you're not comfortable with, because
at some point, once you've gone through the low stake stuff,
you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm totally comfortable presenting to
my team. Throw an unfamiliar face and you're like, yeah, okay,
it's a bit different kind of things that are mid stakes.
(14:06):
Something I used to do. I don't do it anymore,
but when I was getting comfortable with presenting, I always
used to sit at the back of the room, like
you know, if you're presenting in all team meeting. Yeah,
no one knows this. I'm just sharing this. So people
who worked with me clock onto it now. They used
to always sit at the back of the room because
they go, Okay, Lisa's coming up to present on such
and such now, and I'd start talking and start my
presentation as I was walking down to the front, because
(14:29):
then I wasn't looking at Yeah, I don't, right, I
wasn't looking at anyone. They're like, oh, this seems casual
and kind of conversation. I like this. She seems like
she's in flow already. So by the time I turned
around twenty seconds later, I was already in the motion.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So that's something that worked quite well for me when
I started to add in unfamiliar faces.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh my god, that's such a good tim Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So it was one of my favorites. I did a
lot for a while. I don't do it anymore because
I'm often not in the back of the room. But
that's a good one if you're in an all team meeting.
So then let's go high stakes. So let's say you're
comfortable with all those things high stakes to kind of
build ladder. This is full under the spot like this is.
You would know a lot about this in presenting on
stage high stakes, big important meetings, doesn't even have to
(15:12):
be a lot of people, Like it could be twenty people, yeah,
but twenty people that you're like, okay, shit, this is
pretty important.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I honestly think after doing so many presentations and like
speaking in front of so many people, after fifty people.
It's all the same.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, like you can't see all the people.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
You can't see all the people, and it's the same
amount of nerves. Like it's not like the more people
you present with, the more nervous you get. Like you
don't get er point one percent nervous on each person
because they're uncontrollable. Yeah, it's all about the situation, and
so many things impact it, like the type of stage,
like how many people you can see.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like the thing that throws me is when people stoneface
you and give nothing back. Yeah, that's the part I
find the most challenging, whether it's fifty people right up
to one thousand, I'm like, if you're giving me nothing,
then you start to get into your head.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So especially people you don't know, right, Like if you're
presenting in front of a group of strangers who not
only are you to present four, but you have to
convince them that you're a likable person.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yes, and you know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Where it's so much easy. I think if you're presenting
internally at the office or people who know you or
knows your sense of humor, because they're already getting around it,
like they already know they're going to have a good time, and.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's because you're at that comfortability level, right. There will
be people who are listening to this, going I can't
even present in front of the whole team, Like that's
nerve wracking. I remember being in that situation myself, right,
and you go everyone's looking at me. Yeah, some people
will equate that to even be more intense because they're like,
these are people I know and I have to run
into afterwards. So everyone's working their way through this kind
(16:41):
of confidence ladder around skills, and you've got to gauge
where you're at and where you can like just slightly
push yourself outside of your comfort zone to see what
you can do. Because once you do, honestly, like last
year when I presented two a thousand people, I hadn't
done that before. You come off and you're like, fuck, yeah, yeah,
I can't believe I just did that. Like you get
like a good of it, don't Yeah, And no one
cares if you stumbled, No one knows your content. Just
(17:02):
go with it.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Because if you stumble, people are like, well, she is
spending in front of thousands of people, So it happens.
It happened.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
If it is high stakes. One of the things I
do like a bit of a time to run through,
so I know pauses and where I'm going to start,
and I can recover if I go off script. Yeah,
So I practice and know it, but I don't necessarily
deliver it word for word.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah. I did the same, except I had to learn
that as I went. Yeah, I think when I present
in front of like thousands, it's less of like a
presentation and more of like a stand up gig. So
I had to really figure out exactly where I expected
the audience to laugh or the audience to like understand
a joke or like get the heads around it. And
(17:44):
it is really hard the first time you do it
to wait in the silence and wait for them to react,
because it does feel like a long delay, Like it's
not when you're like audience, but it feels like it's
an hour of you just waiting for them to react.
And I think that's what I struggled with.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
But you know the best part is that everyone hates silence,
and so even if you pause and it was a joke,
let's it was a funny joke, they'll naturally kind of
want to fill it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, one of the other things I would say as
a tip in this space, like if you're moving through
this ladder and you're like in a high stakes piece,
is just fine tune the first minute or two so
script that, memorize it, know it off by heart, because
then you can transition into more of a natural flow
because a lot of the adrenaline comes from that first
few moments, don't you think, yeah when you first start speaking.
(18:29):
So if you've got the confidence to go, I know
these first two sentences and what I say from there
is just reinforcing that great and then debrief. I love
a debrief afterwards, not beforehand, not the minute before I'm
going to work one. Please do not give me feedback
the minute or the day before I'm going to walk on,
but the day afterwards, to kind of keep this like
running log of Okay, what's working well, what could be better?
(18:50):
We are all constantly a work in progress. I think
the goal is really like focus on controlling what you can,
which is you're timing, you can learn your strong start
your first few minutes, and then that post event learning
like it doesn't just stop, you don't go well. I
delivered on stage for Out Loud, and I'm now so
I'll just do the same next year.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, next, Thanks guys, thanks for having me do the
debrief because once you find out those things, they kind
of make you more confident, don't you think, because you're like, oh,
I know that about myself, and I know I can
change that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And you can practice that in between your presentations, Like
you can practice that like in front of other people
the person who gave your feedback. Yes, but it really
helps because it also helps you know what other people
see that you might have missed yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yes, And that's the important part, right, because sometimes we're
so in our head and I'm like, oh, they obviously
saw me stumbled, they obviously saw me blank and they didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah. I did a call out on my Instagram stories
for anyone who has any obstacles or dilemmas when it
comes to public speaking or presenting or speaking up in meetings,
and I got so many responses I can't imagine heaps.
(20:04):
Now that we've taken you through the ladder of like
how to prepare, how to present on different stages of
your presentation journey, we wanted to tackle some quick fire
dilemmas to give you just some like really small, actionable
tips just for those little things that kind of keep
our brain going and making us really really nervous. For speaking,
I think we've both faced all of these, right, every
(20:26):
single one of these.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, and so I think each of us will have
a tyre will go rapid.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Fire, Let's go rapidly. Yeah, Okay, how do I stop saying?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So I now pause instead of filling the space, because
when you're saying, you're doing it to fill a space. Yeah. Yeah,
So think of silence as punctuation. It makes you sound
more thoughtful, not unsure.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There you go easy.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Do you say, I say a lot? How would you
stop yourself saying arm?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I have actually replaced in my vocabulary with the phrase
you know aha, So it's kind of reifferring, like yeah,
everything you've said before. Instead of saying, I'll be like
you know, I like that, and it's like an action
and then people are like, yeah, I do know.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I do know that, I do you know that, I
do know. I like that. So you're replacing a filler
raise Yeah, and it's almost like you're using that to
reel them I just said, to reel them back into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Back to apifire.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
What if I ramble, So I use the three things
rules so before you speak, and that you know your start, middle,
and endpoint so if you drift off, you can always
come back to those like think of them as like anchors.
When I was coached on public speaking, someone gave me
the tip of headline proof connection, almost like what's your hook?
So you say something a statement, You go, this is happening,
(21:41):
here's the reasons why it's happening, et cetera. And your
connection is And this matters because and you bring it
back to why they would want to know something about it.
So instead of three things, I know a lot of
people use like I have three things to say. The
first one is I often use headline proof connection so
I know where I'm at.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I love that. Okay, that's a good tip because I'm
a massive rambler.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Andrea Clark, who we interviewed this podcast, gaming that tip,
so we'll credit it to her.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Amazing what if I blank? You had this recently?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Oh this happened to me. It never happened to me before.
Do you want to tell you when it happened? Actually?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yes, please here here?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
So I was coming in here to present on learner.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh my god, yeah, I was there.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, I brain blanked during that, did you yepice. It's
never ever happened to me before in all the public
speaking I've done. I knew what I was talking about,
knew what the questions were, knew what I was going
to say, and I got a couple of sentence in,
and it's terrifying when it happens, like where are the words?
Is my brain still tad done? So because it had
never happened, I didn't know what to do about it,
you know. Afterwards, like as a bit of a like
(22:41):
post debrief, I was talking to a coach about it.
The thing is, no one actually knows what you're going
to say, only you know what you want.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I have no idea, Like it's not like everyone's like,
oh brain blank, Oh why should go blank?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah? So there are things you can do if it
happens to you regularly. Maybe just like think of a
lifeline phrase. So that's a great question. Or you know,
here's where i'd start, like give yourself some time to
catch up and think, because it really is just your
brain just playing catch up, right, ask a question back.
I've seen someone use that really well on a panel.
They asked the actual mc a question back to give
(23:13):
themselves a little bit of time to then think of
their answer.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's so smart. One time I brain blanked and what
I did was I just started talking about the next
thing I could remember in my speech. Okay, Then when
I remembered what I blanked out, I'd be like, oh, sorry,
I forgot about this. Let me come back to that. Yeah,
and you can just go and also jump.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Around and your chart. Yeah, you're in chart. No one
knows what you're going to say exactly, So I think
that is where you want to go to.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
How do I stop speaking so fast?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So this comes from full like fight or flight.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You're really good at not speaking fast. I'm horrible at it.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, I have to intentionally slow myself down. I used
to speak really fast, and you'll tell if I get
excited about something else, I'm speaking really fast.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, so intentionally slow myself down. But when you're standing
up in a meeting or you're on a stage or
delivering a PowerPoint presentation, it's the full fight or flight
that kicks in, and it's the adrenaline and that's why
you start speaking fast because it's almost like a trigger
and you go if I can just say this as
fast as possible. I can get off this stage and
the camera can get off me. Right, That's why you're
(24:16):
doing it. So the one thing I do, and I
do this when I'm speaking on panels, I'm going to
give me away all my secrets. Yes, doing right now, Jesus.
So when I'm on a panel and I go up
and sit down, do you know that box breathing a
little bit? Explain it to me. So I'll go up
there knowing. I mean, breathing is a normal thing, right,
No one can tell that you're doing it. But I
(24:36):
sit down, everyone's getting settled, and I'll do box breathing.
So box breathing basically calms your nervous system. It's where
you breathe in for four, hold for four, and then
breathe out for four and then hold for four. And
so I do three rounds of that normally when I
go and take my seat, and no one can tell
that I'm doing it, and so all of a sudden,
I feel like this calm come over me, and I'm
like I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Oh that's so good, because it is like an anxiety trigger, right,
Like when you're speaking fast, it's like an indication that
you're having an anxious moment. Yes, you're very nervous. Yes,
And breathing and like counting your breads and like slowing
down helps so much.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I think it just helps ground you as well. Like
not only does it obviously like physically it calms your
nervous system, but it brings you back to the moment
and you kind of go into yourself. I've got this.
I'm going to breathe and then I'll be okay.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I get this a lot in podcasting, especially when I
do the spill, because it's like we're doing topics that
I'm very very excited for, especially when we do recommendations
of TVs and movies and I speak so so fast
that I've actually sometimes I get tongue tied. Yes, where
my brain is moving fast and when the muscles in
my tongue and I've had to look this up because
I didn't actually know what was happening to me. The
(25:43):
muscles in my tongue were moving so faster than they
just stop, and I can't get words out. My words
were slurring and breathing, like taking a break. And it's
lucky we can do this in podcasts because it's audio,
and I can just say I need a breather, yes,
and then you do some deep breaths and then speaking
slowly after your deep breads fixes that.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I think you've also got to think about your audience,
right if you want them to hear you, and you
want that to come across really clearly. And I was listening.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
To this on two time Speedy.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Oh, I gotta slow that thing down. When you're delivering presentation,
a podcast, a keynote in a meeting, you need to
remind yourself what you're doing it for. And it's in
service of I need to land this point, or I
need to connect with this audience, or I want to
make them feel X y Z. And so if you
rush through it and you just keep powering through, they're
gonna be like, sorry, what did you say? Yeah, so
(26:37):
we need to work out ways to like physically calm
ourselves down. So that's a good tim.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Just breathe, girl, you've got this, Okay? What do I
do with my hands?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Oh? This is really interesting. When I was at NIDER,
they recorded us on video and we had to watch
everyone back and watch yourself back, which is always cringe.
But so many people don't know what to do with
their hands. And so there'd be people with like hands
by the side, like and they look like a robot,
and they'd like almost like start moving like that. You
really just want them to like relax at your waist somehow. Yeah,
(27:05):
speaking experts will tell you not to do this, but
I'm going to tell you to do it. One of
the things that helped me with like a shaky hand
or not knowing what to do with it at the
start is I would always wear pants with pockets and
you put your hands put I put one hand in
the pocket. Apparently two hands in the pockets is not
good body language. Yeah, yeah, one hand in the pocket
a bit more casual, one hand by your side, or.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Use it to that's a very cool look as well
well on stage, I'm like, that's a cool person.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah. Yeah, they look like they're really relaxed uff there.
Two hands not so much one hand, yes, And you
can hide your hand away and then you know where
to put it and it's kind of your midpoint where
it should be. Don't want them up here, don't want
them down here, but we do want to use gestures
to reinforce what we're saying. And do you know. You
know how I said earlier, record yourself your voice and
listen to your voice. Yes, awkward as hell, but also
(27:50):
record a video of yourself presenting. I know right when
to find these videos of you so many you like
the blue careal of where I'm recording social videos and
I go at while because I've lost my train of
thought when you caught it back and I had to
do this when I was trying at night. You can
see what you're doing too much of or not enough
(28:11):
of that you don't see when you're actually physically deliberate. Yeah. Yeah,
so that's good on.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Such a good tip. Okay, how to prep notes?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I write out my whole script and then I memorize it,
and then I'll just start like saying it in different ways,
like sometimes I'll take it here, sometimes I'll take it here.
But I never come back to that original script because
I only use it as a prompt. So I'm never like, oh,
I forgot to mention this. I need to like make
sure I rememorize that. I think like two days before
(28:41):
my presentation, if you have the time, I try not
to have any pieces of paper. I try not to
read notes. I think it's so important to memorize everything
because it also convinces yourself that you're really good and
confident on stage. Even if you feel like you need
prep notes, have them, but try to memorize those as well.
Every time I have a piece of paper in my hand,
(29:03):
even if I have a podcast script in front of me,
I always end up reading it because it just your
eyes feel safe looking at it, because you can't get
it wrong if you're looking and reading at it. Yes,
but what does look wrong is like the camera's looking
at us, who just sees us reading it.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Anyway anyway to great conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And I think it's something that I found so it
was probably the most difficult skill I had to learn.
But once I realized I could memorize things and really
take it in and know that I can take it
to different places while always coming back to the core
stuff I wanted to say, I was able to just
boost my confidence by so much by knowing that I
know my stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I couldn't agree more. And I think it's the unsexy
part that so many people skip. They're like, oh, I
just have to write this presentation. Then I go up
and present it. IM like, eh, My process is do
the same thing. I write it out word for word,
and then I memorize it. And what that looks like
is saying it out loud over and over and over again.
And then I record it and I listened to it
(29:59):
in the car and I say it along in the
car like a real widow. It's such a people like
next to me traffic lights going O, why should have a
really long phone conversation. No, I'm saying my notes over
and over again and then like you, I'm not fully
wedded to the script, but I know the flow and
I know the key messages that I want to try
and get across with the audience and where it's worth
(30:20):
pausing and inviting them into.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah. Another tip I have for that actually think of
the worst actor. Like everyone has an actor in their
head who's like, yeah, they should not be an acting
like that is a horrible actor, so so bad. Yes,
if that person can memorize their script for a whole
movie or TV show, you can do it.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
For a resitation, Yes, you can. A lot of the
time you need to get the brain's mouth connection happening,
so you need to be saying it over and over.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So those are little tips. I felt like they were
meant to be really little, but we just gave a
lot of advice.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
We gave a lot of things away, so as if
you ever see me present, now you know all my secrets.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So it's come to my favorite part of the podcast,
are out, which is our one useful thing. This is
the one thing we want you to take away from
the whole episode. We're actually giving you two though.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
IM going to give you too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
My one is don't ask for feedback too late. The
time you want to be asking for feedback is either
after you've done your presentation or right in the early
stages where you're structuring it out. Don't come to the
final product and then ask for feedback because it's going
to wig you out completely.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh your question, everything you're doing. Yeah, yeah, that is
great feedback. I love that I've shared a lot of
tips throughout this And I was thinking about this yesterday, going,
I've done a lot of training in this space. I'm
going to ask a friend of mine, and I thought,
who is the best public speaker or presenter that I
know that I've worked with? And so I called Will
and I want to share his advice, And so he
said this to me, it's context then content. So first
(31:46):
is the context of the room, who's in there, what
are they looking for? What politics are at play? That
will shape my content and the way I deliver it.
And then I'll deliberately play to the audience and try
and pull individuals in great tip always use their names right.
And then on the content side, I always block out
a good amount of time to write things down in detail.
I'm talking like word for word. I'll practice that, make
tweaks go again, and then less details, it's dot points
(32:07):
and prompts. So I practice and then I let myself
loosen up on the script and I think what you
can take out of that is like the more that
you prepare and rehearse, even in small ways, the less
your brain has to panic about it. What I like
in his tip there is he's balancing out the context
and who's in the room with what he needs to
deliver to.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah. That is so Thank you, Will, Mart, thank you will,
Thank you so much for listening to BIZ this week.
Remember you can always follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn
on Instagram where beiz by ma Mia and we have
a very free newsletter for you to sign up to
The link is in our show notes. Beers was produced
by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges. We'll
be back next week.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to BIZ Your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm m Vernon and I'm Lesai. I'm a former head
of People in Culture, an organizational coach, and the founder
of Learner, a micro learning app that helps you learn
the people skills to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well, for this episode, we need some people skills. Yes,
we do, because I feel like everyone's been in this position,
whether it's a presentation or just speaking up in meetings
or even doing like a public speaking gig. A lot
of people, it's exciting speaking up.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
For me, it's exciting. It's exciting.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was going to say, and to those people, I say,
you're liars.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, I'm weird. But it's taken me a while
to get to the exciting levels. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, Because I think majority of people, especially people who
aren't used to it and have to do it as
a one off, it is probably the most nerve racking
experience a person has ever gone through.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think the pressure to sound confident can actually make
it worse. I've had plenty of moments where my hands
were shaking or my brain went totally blank and I
freaked and after years of doing all this training in
this space on myself, I really think that confidence in
public speaking and in any setting is something you can build,
like it's a real skill.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's so true, and it's also just really annoying advice
when someone's just like just be confident and you're like, okay, sure,
thanks you so much, I can fix everything.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So this episode, we're actually going to give you practical
tips that you can actually apply to any situation, whether
it's what I said before, like speaking up in meetings
or actually doing a public speaking gig to build that confidence,
because it doesn't come naturally for everyone. So, Lise, you
did a survey on your LinkedIn because we wanted to
(01:56):
know exactly because both of us do a lot of
public speaking, a lot of presentations, so we want to
know exactly what the core dilemmas are when it comes
to people to public speak for the first time. What
were your findings.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Twenty seven percent of you yeah said I say um
too much and I hard relate to this. I actually
had no idea I was doing it until someone pointed
it out to me. Seventeen percent say I'll ramble and
lose my point. Me I've seen that happen. Twenty one
percent of you said, I blank and forget what to say. Now,
I could never relate to this, but about six months
ago it happened to me mid flow, and it never
(02:29):
happened to me before, and it is the most terrifying
thing when it happens. Oh, like my brain doesn't work anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, what happened.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And then thirty five percent of you said, I rush
and speak too fast.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Okay, So I think so many people experience at least
one of these or all of these. I know I've
definitely been in a position where I've done all of these,
even the like saying I say it in my like
everyday language, it's either or like I constantly say it yeah,
And then every time someone pulls me up on it,
because they're pulling me up on it so many times,
it gets even more annoying.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Really, see, I find I'm more conscious of it. Then
I start pausing and stopping, like, don't say don't you just.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Have to be in the silence. So now that we
know exactly what's freaking us all out, and I feel
like it's a lot of common things we're going to
dive into. Actually, how to fix these things and get
over this. So I think when people hear the phrase
public speaking, they picture like Ted talk. Right, You're on
stage with the microphone, with the presentation, you're not looking
(03:25):
at any notes, and you're speaking to like thousands and
thousands of people. I've had to do that recently, but
it's not something that everyone does, and I think it's
important to remember that public speaking can be brought down
many many levels, like even just having a one on
one where you're like rehearsing a presentation for someone that
counts as public.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Spit one hundred percent does. And so through this I
want to talk you through like a bit of a
public speaking confidence ladder and how you can start to
build that skill throughout as well. I think it's also
what you're saying there. It's like the worst place to
start if you're trying to build confidence. Like you wouldn't
start a fitness journey by going I'm doing a marathon, right,
like you start with I'm going to run one kilometer
around the block. The same thing applies with speaking. Yeah,
(04:04):
absolutely the same.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So you've done a lot of training in the public
speaking space.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I have now I actually don't normally share this or
talk about it, because I think it makes people assume
or worse, think that I think I'm a really good speaker,
because I'm not. I'm a working progress. But I actually
just really enjoy it. So when I was growing up,
I did nine years of weekly elocution classes. What is
that if you haven't come across it before. Elocution is
basically the art of public speaking. Oh, when you were
(04:32):
growing up from eight till seventeen, eight years old until.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Something, your parents were just like you're doing this or
you're like I want to do this?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh god, no, I didn't want to do it. I
was so shy. I love books, you know, like, we've
got to give her something that will build confidence. And
then as I started to do it, obviously I started
to enjoy it. Yeah, so did that. So that gave
me a really good child prodigy of public speaking public speaking,
went to public speaking school. I've also had one on
one coaching in public speaking because I obviously do a
lot through work, and I did a lot previously in
(05:01):
a lot of my other roles. I've spoken on stage
at Carriage Works to a thousand people. I know you
also done some large crowds too, and then I took
it to the next level this year and I went
to NIER and learned all about public speaking there. Oh wow, Yeah, Yeah,
it was really really interesting. And this is more about
learning the craft. So that makes me sound like this
(05:21):
walking ted talk, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
She loves speaking.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I just like speaking. I'm also pretty comfortable with public
speaking now and I actually enjoy it. So I still
get nervous though, I'll still rasha, I'll still brain blank
at times. So I want you to know you can
do all the training in the world and will gradually
make you feel more comfortable, but the nerves just tell
you that you're excited and you're interested in it, right.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And the reason I think it's worth sharing today is
so you have some idea where some of my tips
are coming from, because some of them will be a
little bit technical in terms of the preparation, etc. And
you and I were talking about this earlier. Remember m
everyone sees the end product, Yeah, and you want to
know the process of how someone gets there and gets
up in stage or gets into that meeting and delivers. Yeah,
So we're going to talk a little bit about the process.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Which I'm really excited about because I feel like when
it comes to public speaking, it is still nerve racking,
even for the biggest public speakers in the world, and
going through the process is quite vulnerable because you're actually
having to show yourself that, oh, I am not prepared
until I am prepared, and like talking through that process,
I always get my back up a little bit because
(06:25):
I'm like, oh, I don't want you to know see
me broken down in this part. I want you to
just see what I look like on stage at the
end level. But it is so important to know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
It feels really personal too as well when you're delivering,
because there's nothing to give feedback on apart from how
you personally are delivering. Yeah, have you done a bit
of training or have you self taught? Have you watched
people like? Have you got had some coaching?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I haven't done any training. The only training I've done
is my mom's a really good public speaker. She got
that from my nana who's also a public speaker. And
it was more just like one on one I guess training.
Every time I had to do a speech at school
or a presentation or a group preso, they'd always force
me to do it in front of them.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yes, that's good. You probably take that now.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
It's so good. But when I was younger, I was like,
I would avoid telling them I had a presentation coming
up because I knew they'd make me do it in
front of them, Like I'd avoid it at all.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
How much do you thank them now? I'm very thankful
now for the elocution lessons. Yea.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It was the best thing they've ever done for me.
I mean, they've done great things for me, but.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That was the best best. You can tangibly use that
today in your job, and you think of them when
you do it, right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, But it is like, especially when you're so vulnerable
about what you're speaking about, and plus you're in a
vulnerable position just in general, having someone give you that
direct feedback on the way you talk and the way
you present and what you're saying and what you shouldn't
be saying and what you should be saying instead, it's
so hard to not take it personally.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, it's kind of like a performance review, it is, Yeah,
but a performance review on you on stage.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And you're just standing there by yourself and they're just
sitting there.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
In front of you exactly. But I think what we
want you to know out of this is that there
are small, gradual things you can do to make yourself
feel more comfortable with it and also just gradually get
better and enjoy it. If people walked away from this
and started to enjoy public speaking a bit more like
that'd be a great thing.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Oh my god, how good for the world.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So we're going to help you build that muscle memory
and get you doing it because I think the more
that you can find some low stakes ways to speak up, yeah,
the less it's about this big moment and this big reveal. Yeah.
So I'll talked about it before. Let's talk about the
public speaking confidence ladder. Okay, some steps you can kind
of take, so low stakes first, Yeah, this is where
you want to flex your muscle in safe spaces. And
(08:32):
you're talking about this before with the meeting thing, right,
so you could start with contribution first challenges. What I
mean by that is that you know, if you're in
a meeting and you're like, I should say something, and
if you don't say something up front, and you sit
there for like forty minutes and you're waiting, all you're
thinking about is like I will say something. I need
to say something.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
You're not taking in anything else that's happening in.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
The middle of thing, right, and the nerves build up,
so by the time you speak, you're like, oh shit.
If you can speak up once in every meeting and
try and do it as early as possible, what happens
then is you get your voice out and you can
get it heard, and then you're like, oh, that wasn't
that bad. Maybe I have something else to say, Yeah,
and I'll say it again later. So that's a version
of public speaking.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You can also rehearse in low pressure environment. So try
running it past a mum, a team member, nana, whoever
that might be, who can give you some feedback and
it doesn't feel confrontational or like a performance review where
you're standing in front of them. Yeah, that's a good
way to do it. And the other point is for
low stakes And I do this all the time. I
record myself so voice note Ooh, So if I know
(09:32):
that I'm going to deliver a presentation or public speaking
or a really high stakes meeting, I will record a
voice memo and then I'll play it back. Because when
you take out the visual, right and you just listen
to what's going on, you start to hear pacing, so
I'm going too fast. Start to hear filler words as well, ye,
the likes and everything. You also hear what's called upward inflection,
(09:55):
which you would know is like when every sentence sounds
like it's a question, yeah, yeah, and this and is
is it right? Yes? That's the stuff you start to
spot just by listening, taking out all the visuals and stuff,
listen to yourself back. So there's some low stakes ways
you can start to build that muscle. Is there anything
low stakes you've done when you were starting out when
you're like, Okay, I need to just kind of rehearse
(10:17):
and practice here.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Oh yeah, There's been a few, and it's a lot
of things that I've had to learn on the way
while doing it, because I do want to say, like,
even if it's your first time speaking up in a
meeting or doing a presentation, it's not going to be
the best, no, because you get better as you do it.
It's like a muscle, like you have to constantly practice
and get better. And there's just been so many times
(10:40):
where I've presented and it's just not landed. And it's
usually those certain situations where it sticks with you at
like three am and you suddenly remember and you're like,
oh my god, remember when I did that shitty joke
and no one laughed. Yes, so embarrassing. If you do
that all the time and you have more and more
of that, it's not going to be the one off
where you're just constantly thinking about Like I just want
(11:00):
to tell everyone that you will fumble and like mess
up multiple times more you do it because you're just
putting yourself out there more. But while you're doing that,
you're also getting better. Yes, I also, which I don't
know if it was like a bit of a red flag,
but if I am presenting in front of like a
big team and it's like a boardroom or something, yeah,
I don't wear my glasses because I need glasses for
(11:22):
like distance. Yeah I can't actually see their faces because
throws me. And this happened recently at an award show
where I was accepting an award and I was like
talking and it was like such a low stakes presentation,
but you're still presenting, like you're still thanking people for
the award and thanking the company and thanking your bosses,
and the table right in front of me, we're just
(11:43):
talking so loudly to each other, like passing each other
plates cutting their state while I was talking. Oh and
this was after the out loud show, Like after I
did a presentation for like thousands of people and it
was just a group of five people, and I completely
went blank because all I could see was them just
not engaging me at all, not make eye contacts, and
I was just like, oh my god, like I'm so boring.
(12:05):
You get in your hand immediately. Yes, in those situations,
find one person who's looking at you. I know there
will be one at least one. Yeah, find them. Hone
in on them, and you will just suddenly get that
boost of confidence and you'll get back on track.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
That's my Grandda. And those people at the table, you
would be like, in your head, you are so rude,
Like I measure if you were up here and I
was having to listen.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I'm sorry you didn't win the award.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
But find me in the room. I am always sitting
there like so respectful, looking at the person and like
locking in. I'm like, you got this, which is another tip.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
No matter who's presenting in front of you, just know
everyone's in the same boat, like everyone's nervous. Give them
the time of day, watch them, look at them, engage
with them, No, be a character for them, because it
is so comforting being on stage when you see someone
who's actually engaged in what you're saying and who's like
nodding along, and it's something so simple you can do
(12:53):
and it just helps so much.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I love that bit of public speaking karma because you
will be the other person up there on the stage
one day and you will want that person along. So
let's move to midstake. So say you're comfortable in that
kind of setting, what you want to do next is
probably add a little bit of complexity and unpredictability, So
you go no notes, so present for two to three
(13:15):
minutes without relying on slides or notes. Just focus on
your structure and your flow for that. So that would
be your next level of testing yourself out. The other
one could be take questions by choice, so you can
prepare for a meeting and you can prepare for a presentation.
But when you take questions at the end and go
has anyone got questions? Whole? There goes the unpredictability. I
don't know what EM's going to say, you don't know
(13:36):
what's it's going to ask me, and so that is
almost like public speaking on the spot, but in a
small way. Right, you're answering one question.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
The next thing you could do is start to change
the audience mix. So get like a cross functional group
or people that you don't normally present with or know
very well, and get them in so you get a
different crowd of people that you're not comfortable with, because
at some point, once you've gone through the low stake stuff,
you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm totally comfortable presenting to
my team. Throw an unfamiliar face and you're like, yeah, okay,
it's a bit different kind of things that are mid stakes.
(14:06):
Something I used to do. I don't do it anymore,
but when I was getting comfortable with presenting, I always
used to sit at the back of the room, like
you know, if you're presenting in all team meeting. Yeah,
no one knows this. I'm just sharing this. So people
who worked with me clock onto it now. They used
to always sit at the back of the room because
they go, Okay, Lisa's coming up to present on such
and such now, and I'd start talking and start my
presentation as I was walking down to the front, because
(14:29):
then I wasn't looking at Yeah, I don't, right, I
wasn't looking at anyone. They're like, oh, this seems casual
and kind of conversation. I like this. She seems like
she's in flow already. So by the time I turned
around twenty seconds later, I was already in the motion.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
So that's something that worked quite well for me when
I started to add in unfamiliar faces.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Oh my god, that's such a good tim Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So it was one of my favorites. I did a
lot for a while. I don't do it anymore because
I'm often not in the back of the room. But
that's a good one if you're in an all team meeting.
So then let's go high stakes. So let's say you're
comfortable with all those things high stakes to kind of
build ladder. This is full under the spot like this is.
You would know a lot about this in presenting on
stage high stakes, big important meetings, doesn't even have to
(15:12):
be a lot of people, Like it could be twenty people, yeah,
but twenty people that you're like, okay, shit, this is
pretty important.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I honestly think after doing so many presentations and like
speaking in front of so many people, after fifty people.
It's all the same.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, like you can't see all the people.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
You can't see all the people, and it's the same
amount of nerves. Like it's not like the more people
you present with, the more nervous you get. Like you
don't get er point one percent nervous on each person
because they're uncontrollable. Yeah, it's all about the situation, and
so many things impact it, like the type of stage,
like how many people you can see.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like the thing that throws me is when people stoneface
you and give nothing back. Yeah, that's the part I
find the most challenging, whether it's fifty people right up
to one thousand, I'm like, if you're giving me nothing,
then you start to get into your head.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
So especially people you don't know, right, Like if you're
presenting in front of a group of strangers who not
only are you to present four, but you have to
convince them that you're a likable person.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yes, and you know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Where it's so much easy. I think if you're presenting
internally at the office or people who know you or
knows your sense of humor, because they're already getting around it,
like they already know they're going to have a good time, and.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's because you're at that comfortability level, right. There will
be people who are listening to this, going I can't
even present in front of the whole team, Like that's
nerve wracking. I remember being in that situation myself, right,
and you go everyone's looking at me. Yeah, some people
will equate that to even be more intense because they're like,
these are people I know and I have to run
into afterwards. So everyone's working their way through this kind
(16:41):
of confidence ladder around skills, and you've got to gauge
where you're at and where you can like just slightly
push yourself outside of your comfort zone to see what
you can do. Because once you do, honestly, like last
year when I presented two a thousand people, I hadn't
done that before. You come off and you're like, fuck, yeah, yeah,
I can't believe I just did that. Like you get
like a good of it, don't Yeah, And no one
cares if you stumbled, No one knows your content. Just
(17:02):
go with it.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Because if you stumble, people are like, well, she is
spending in front of thousands of people, So it happens.
It happened.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
If it is high stakes. One of the things I
do like a bit of a time to run through,
so I know pauses and where I'm going to start,
and I can recover if I go off script. Yeah,
So I practice and know it, but I don't necessarily
deliver it word for word.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah. I did the same, except I had to learn
that as I went. Yeah, I think when I present
in front of like thousands, it's less of like a
presentation and more of like a stand up gig. So
I had to really figure out exactly where I expected
the audience to laugh or the audience to like understand
a joke or like get the heads around it. And
(17:44):
it is really hard the first time you do it
to wait in the silence and wait for them to react,
because it does feel like a long delay, Like it's
not when you're like audience, but it feels like it's
an hour of you just waiting for them to react.
And I think that's what I struggled with.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
But you know the best part is that everyone hates silence,
and so even if you pause and it was a joke,
let's it was a funny joke, they'll naturally kind of
want to fill it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, one of the other things I would say as
a tip in this space, like if you're moving through
this ladder and you're like in a high stakes piece,
is just fine tune the first minute or two so
script that, memorize it, know it off by heart, because
then you can transition into more of a natural flow
because a lot of the adrenaline comes from that first
few moments, don't you think, yeah when you first start speaking.
(18:29):
So if you've got the confidence to go, I know
these first two sentences and what I say from there
is just reinforcing that great and then debrief. I love
a debrief afterwards, not beforehand, not the minute before I'm
going to work one. Please do not give me feedback
the minute or the day before I'm going to walk on,
but the day afterwards, to kind of keep this like
running log of Okay, what's working well, what could be better?
(18:50):
We are all constantly a work in progress. I think
the goal is really like focus on controlling what you can,
which is you're timing, you can learn your strong start
your first few minutes, and then that post event learning
like it doesn't just stop, you don't go well. I
delivered on stage for Out Loud, and I'm now so
I'll just do the same next year.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, next, Thanks guys, thanks for having me do the
debrief because once you find out those things, they kind
of make you more confident, don't you think, because you're like, oh,
I know that about myself, and I know I can
change that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And you can practice that in between your presentations, Like
you can practice that like in front of other people
the person who gave your feedback. Yes, but it really
helps because it also helps you know what other people
see that you might have missed yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yes, And that's the important part, right, because sometimes we're
so in our head and I'm like, oh, they obviously
saw me stumbled, they obviously saw me blank and they didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah. I did a call out on my Instagram stories
for anyone who has any obstacles or dilemmas when it
comes to public speaking or presenting or speaking up in meetings,
and I got so many responses I can't imagine heaps.
(20:04):
Now that we've taken you through the ladder of like
how to prepare, how to present on different stages of
your presentation journey, we wanted to tackle some quick fire
dilemmas to give you just some like really small, actionable
tips just for those little things that kind of keep
our brain going and making us really really nervous. For speaking,
I think we've both faced all of these, right, every
(20:26):
single one of these.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, and so I think each of us will have
a tyre will go rapid.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Fire, Let's go rapidly. Yeah, Okay, how do I stop saying?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So I now pause instead of filling the space, because
when you're saying, you're doing it to fill a space. Yeah. Yeah,
So think of silence as punctuation. It makes you sound
more thoughtful, not unsure.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
There you go easy.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Do you say, I say a lot? How would you
stop yourself saying arm?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I have actually replaced in my vocabulary with the phrase
you know aha, So it's kind of reifferring, like yeah,
everything you've said before. Instead of saying, I'll be like
you know, I like that, and it's like an action
and then people are like, yeah, I do know.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I do know that, I do you know that, I
do know. I like that. So you're replacing a filler
raise Yeah, and it's almost like you're using that to
reel them I just said, to reel them back into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Back to apifire.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
What if I ramble, So I use the three things
rules so before you speak, and that you know your start, middle,
and endpoint so if you drift off, you can always
come back to those like think of them as like anchors.
When I was coached on public speaking, someone gave me
the tip of headline proof connection, almost like what's your hook?
So you say something a statement, You go, this is happening,
(21:41):
here's the reasons why it's happening, et cetera. And your
connection is And this matters because and you bring it
back to why they would want to know something about it.
So instead of three things, I know a lot of
people use like I have three things to say. The
first one is I often use headline proof connection so
I know where I'm at.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I love that. Okay, that's a good tip because I'm
a massive rambler.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Andrea Clark, who we interviewed this podcast, gaming that tip,
so we'll credit it to her.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Amazing what if I blank? You had this recently?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Oh this happened to me. It never happened to me before.
Do you want to tell you when it happened? Actually?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yes, please here here?
Speaker 1 (22:16):
So I was coming in here to present on learner.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh my god, yeah, I was there.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, I brain blanked during that, did you yepice. It's
never ever happened to me before in all the public
speaking I've done. I knew what I was talking about,
knew what the questions were, knew what I was going
to say, and I got a couple of sentence in,
and it's terrifying when it happens, like where are the words?
Is my brain still tad done? So because it had
never happened, I didn't know what to do about it,
you know. Afterwards, like as a bit of a like
(22:41):
post debrief, I was talking to a coach about it.
The thing is, no one actually knows what you're going
to say, only you know what you want.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I have no idea, Like it's not like everyone's like,
oh brain blank, Oh why should go blank?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah? So there are things you can do if it
happens to you regularly. Maybe just like think of a
lifeline phrase. So that's a great question. Or you know,
here's where i'd start, like give yourself some time to
catch up and think, because it really is just your
brain just playing catch up, right, ask a question back.
I've seen someone use that really well on a panel.
They asked the actual mc a question back to give
(23:13):
themselves a little bit of time to then think of
their answer.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
That's so smart. One time I brain blanked and what
I did was I just started talking about the next
thing I could remember in my speech. Okay, Then when
I remembered what I blanked out, I'd be like, oh, sorry,
I forgot about this. Let me come back to that. Yeah,
and you can just go and also jump.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Around and your chart. Yeah, you're in chart. No one
knows what you're going to say exactly, So I think
that is where you want to go to.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
How do I stop speaking so fast?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So this comes from full like fight or flight.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You're really good at not speaking fast. I'm horrible at it.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, I have to intentionally slow myself down. I used
to speak really fast, and you'll tell if I get
excited about something else, I'm speaking really fast.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, so intentionally slow myself down. But when you're standing
up in a meeting or you're on a stage or
delivering a PowerPoint presentation, it's the full fight or flight
that kicks in, and it's the adrenaline and that's why
you start speaking fast because it's almost like a trigger
and you go if I can just say this as
fast as possible. I can get off this stage and
the camera can get off me. Right, That's why you're
(24:16):
doing it. So the one thing I do, and I
do this when I'm speaking on panels, I'm going to
give me away all my secrets. Yes, doing right now, Jesus.
So when I'm on a panel and I go up
and sit down, do you know that box breathing a
little bit? Explain it to me. So I'll go up
there knowing. I mean, breathing is a normal thing, right,
No one can tell that you're doing it. But I
(24:36):
sit down, everyone's getting settled, and I'll do box breathing.
So box breathing basically calms your nervous system. It's where
you breathe in for four, hold for four, and then
breathe out for four and then hold for four. And
so I do three rounds of that normally when I
go and take my seat, and no one can tell
that I'm doing it, and so all of a sudden,
I feel like this calm come over me, and I'm
like I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Oh that's so good, because it is like an anxiety trigger, right,
Like when you're speaking fast, it's like an indication that
you're having an anxious moment. Yes, you're very nervous. Yes,
And breathing and like counting your breads and like slowing
down helps so much.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I think it just helps ground you as well. Like
not only does it obviously like physically it calms your
nervous system, but it brings you back to the moment
and you kind of go into yourself. I've got this.
I'm going to breathe and then I'll be okay.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I get this a lot in podcasting, especially when I
do the spill, because it's like we're doing topics that
I'm very very excited for, especially when we do recommendations
of TVs and movies and I speak so so fast
that I've actually sometimes I get tongue tied. Yes, where
my brain is moving fast and when the muscles in
my tongue and I've had to look this up because
I didn't actually know what was happening to me. The
(25:43):
muscles in my tongue were moving so faster than they
just stop, and I can't get words out. My words
were slurring and breathing, like taking a break. And it's
lucky we can do this in podcasts because it's audio,
and I can just say I need a breather, yes,
and then you do some deep breaths and then speaking
slowly after your deep breads fixes that.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I think you've also got to think about your audience,
right if you want them to hear you, and you
want that to come across really clearly. And I was listening.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
To this on two time Speedy.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Oh, I gotta slow that thing down. When you're delivering presentation,
a podcast, a keynote in a meeting, you need to
remind yourself what you're doing it for. And it's in
service of I need to land this point, or I
need to connect with this audience, or I want to
make them feel X y Z. And so if you
rush through it and you just keep powering through, they're
gonna be like, sorry, what did you say? Yeah, so
(26:37):
we need to work out ways to like physically calm
ourselves down. So that's a good tim.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Just breathe, girl, you've got this, Okay? What do I
do with my hands?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Oh? This is really interesting. When I was at NIDER,
they recorded us on video and we had to watch
everyone back and watch yourself back, which is always cringe.
But so many people don't know what to do with
their hands. And so there'd be people with like hands
by the side, like and they look like a robot,
and they'd like almost like start moving like that. You
really just want them to like relax at your waist somehow. Yeah,
(27:05):
speaking experts will tell you not to do this, but
I'm going to tell you to do it. One of
the things that helped me with like a shaky hand
or not knowing what to do with it at the
start is I would always wear pants with pockets and
you put your hands put I put one hand in
the pocket. Apparently two hands in the pockets is not
good body language. Yeah, yeah, one hand in the pocket
a bit more casual, one hand by your side, or.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Use it to that's a very cool look as well
well on stage, I'm like, that's a cool person.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah. Yeah, they look like they're really relaxed uff there.
Two hands not so much one hand, yes, And you
can hide your hand away and then you know where
to put it and it's kind of your midpoint where
it should be. Don't want them up here, don't want
them down here, but we do want to use gestures
to reinforce what we're saying. And do you know. You
know how I said earlier, record yourself your voice and
listen to your voice. Yes, awkward as hell, but also
(27:50):
record a video of yourself presenting. I know right when
to find these videos of you so many you like
the blue careal of where I'm recording social videos and
I go at while because I've lost my train of
thought when you caught it back and I had to
do this when I was trying at night. You can
see what you're doing too much of or not enough
(28:11):
of that you don't see when you're actually physically deliberate. Yeah. Yeah,
so that's good on.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Such a good tip. Okay, how to prep notes?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I write out my whole script and then I memorize it,
and then I'll just start like saying it in different ways,
like sometimes I'll take it here, sometimes I'll take it here.
But I never come back to that original script because
I only use it as a prompt. So I'm never like, oh,
I forgot to mention this. I need to like make
sure I rememorize that. I think like two days before
(28:41):
my presentation, if you have the time, I try not
to have any pieces of paper. I try not to
read notes. I think it's so important to memorize everything
because it also convinces yourself that you're really good and
confident on stage. Even if you feel like you need
prep notes, have them, but try to memorize those as well.
Every time I have a piece of paper in my hand,
(29:03):
even if I have a podcast script in front of me,
I always end up reading it because it just your
eyes feel safe looking at it, because you can't get
it wrong if you're looking and reading at it. Yes,
but what does look wrong is like the camera's looking
at us, who just sees us reading it.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Anyway anyway to great conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And I think it's something that I found so it
was probably the most difficult skill I had to learn.
But once I realized I could memorize things and really
take it in and know that I can take it
to different places while always coming back to the core
stuff I wanted to say, I was able to just
boost my confidence by so much by knowing that I
know my stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I couldn't agree more. And I think it's the unsexy
part that so many people skip. They're like, oh, I
just have to write this presentation. Then I go up
and present it. IM like, eh, My process is do
the same thing. I write it out word for word,
and then I memorize it. And what that looks like
is saying it out loud over and over and over again.
And then I record it and I listened to it
(29:59):
in the car and I say it along in the
car like a real widow. It's such a people like
next to me traffic lights going O, why should have a
really long phone conversation. No, I'm saying my notes over
and over again and then like you, I'm not fully
wedded to the script, but I know the flow and
I know the key messages that I want to try
and get across with the audience and where it's worth
(30:20):
pausing and inviting them into.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah. Another tip I have for that actually think of
the worst actor. Like everyone has an actor in their
head who's like, yeah, they should not be an acting
like that is a horrible actor, so so bad. Yes,
if that person can memorize their script for a whole
movie or TV show, you can do it.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
For a resitation, Yes, you can. A lot of the
time you need to get the brain's mouth connection happening,
so you need to be saying it over and over.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So those are little tips. I felt like they were
meant to be really little, but we just gave a
lot of advice.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
We gave a lot of things away, so as if
you ever see me present, now you know all my secrets.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So it's come to my favorite part of the podcast,
are out, which is our one useful thing. This is
the one thing we want you to take away from
the whole episode. We're actually giving you two though.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
IM going to give you too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
My one is don't ask for feedback too late. The
time you want to be asking for feedback is either
after you've done your presentation or right in the early
stages where you're structuring it out. Don't come to the
final product and then ask for feedback because it's going
to wig you out completely.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh your question, everything you're doing. Yeah, yeah, that is
great feedback. I love that I've shared a lot of
tips throughout this And I was thinking about this yesterday, going,
I've done a lot of training in this space. I'm
going to ask a friend of mine, and I thought,
who is the best public speaker or presenter that I
know that I've worked with? And so I called Will
and I want to share his advice, And so he
said this to me, it's context then content. So first
(31:46):
is the context of the room, who's in there, what
are they looking for? What politics are at play? That
will shape my content and the way I deliver it.
And then I'll deliberately play to the audience and try
and pull individuals in great tip always use their names right.
And then on the content side, I always block out
a good amount of time to write things down in detail.
I'm talking like word for word. I'll practice that, make
tweaks go again, and then less details, it's dot points
(32:07):
and prompts. So I practice and then I let myself
loosen up on the script and I think what you
can take out of that is like the more that
you prepare and rehearse, even in small ways, the less
your brain has to panic about it. What I like
in his tip there is he's balancing out the context
and who's in the room with what he needs to
deliver to.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah. That is so Thank you, Will, Mart, thank you will,
Thank you so much for listening to BIZ this week.
Remember you can always follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn
on Instagram where beiz by ma Mia and we have
a very free newsletter for you to sign up to
The link is in our show notes. Beers was produced
by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges. We'll
be back next week.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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