July 28, 2025 • 23 mins
Working your way up isn't just about putting in more hours or waiting your turn. It's about being strategic, being visible, and knowing how to navigate the messy middle - like relationships, timing, and office politics. This week, we're giving you the exact playbook to stop waiting around for someone to tell you that you're ready for a promotion and how to actually make it happen instead.
We dig into how to know if you're actually ready to move up (spoiler: time in seat doesn't equal readiness), the art of asking for advancement without sounding pushy or awkward, and how to build the kind of reputation that makes people want to champion your career. Plus, we tackle what to do when you tick all the boxes but still don't get the promotion - and why that might actually be the best thing that could happen to you.
What you'll learn:
- The Readiness Reality Check: How to get honest feedback about where you stand and what a "10 out of 10" performance actually looks like
- The Promotion Conversation Reframe: Why you should never use the word "promotion" and what to say instead to get results
- The Trust Factor: Why promotions go to the most trusted person, not the loudest, and four quiet ways to build your reputation
- The Sponsor vs Mentor Distinction: Understanding the difference and why having a sponsor is crucial for career acceleration
- The Rejection Recovery Plan: Four strategic experiments to try when you don't get the promotion (that set you up for success either way)
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
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HOSTS: Lisa Lie and Em Vernem
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to biz your work Life Sorted. I'm
m Burnham and.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Lisa Lee. I'm a former head of People in Culture,
an organizational coach, and the founder of Lerner, which is
a micro learning app that helps you learn the people
skills to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So good. I feel like I haven't talked to you
in so long, even.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Though it's been a week too long, way too long.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Too long for us. We have a really exciting episode
today because we are going to teach you how to
stop waiting around for someone to tell you that you're
ready for a promotion, and how to actually make it happen. Instead,
we are giving you the exact playbook you need.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, we'd love a playbook, don't we. So am around
the dystopia. I feel like I'm talking to so many
people who are thinking, am I ready for a promotion?
And if I am, how do I even position myself
for that next level without sounding really pushy or awkward
about it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I have so many friends who are going through this
right now where they really really want a promotion. But
I think with that tall poppy syndrome that a lot
of us have. They don't want to overstep or make
it really weird with their manager.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah yeah, obvious, seem overly pushy or like they deserve it.
I think there's that, and there's also working your way up.
Isn't just about putting in more hours and hoping someone notices.
I see so many people do this. It actually takes intention,
a bit of timing, and also a little bit of
strategy around it. So it's three parts we're going to
cover as part of this playbook. First, one is how
don't know if you're ready. Then also how to ask
(01:41):
for that promotion without being weird, and also how to
build a reputation that makes people want to champion your career.
And I think this is the part that so many
people miss. I'm really excited to cover it today because
if you're waiting to be tapped on the shoulder, you
might be waiting a long time.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And I've been waiting a long time. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
There's been times I've been waiting a long time. But
oh my god, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
The biggest question that's coming up in a lot of
convos I have with people at the moment is how
do you know if you're actually ready to be promoted?
And one of the most common things I hear is
that people assume they're ready because they've been in the
role for a while. But time and seat doesn't always
equal readiness. I actually think that progress isn't about how
long you've been somewhere, It's about the impact you've made
(02:27):
while you've been there. So to workout if you're actually ready,
you need to start with a super clear picture of
how your manager sees how you're going. You want to
be asking them things like how do you think I'm
tracking my role right now? Or what's one thing I
could be doing better? And these kind of questions will
Have you tried these before?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It sounds so easy, but I feel like I don't know,
there's something in my heart that just goes ugh. You
have to have like so much confidence to do that,
and it just feels kind of vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, And I've seen people almost set it up in
an agenda beforehand, or say here's something i'd like to cover,
so it's on the table before you walk in the room.
Even that question around how am I tracking my role?
We'd cover that now one on one. You don't have
to be as full on as like eyeballing someone right now,
like I am with you, where I'm going? How am
I doing right now?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And putting them on the spot, yeah, because it can
feel awkward for both people, not just the person asking.
But the reality is is that if you're not asking
those kind of questions, you're not getting the feedback you need,
and you need to open the door to that feedback
because then you're not waiting for this formal check in
or this performance cycle and all the build up that
comes with that to then just be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The other thing I want to say is like you
were touching on this before around putting that on the table,
and it requires a lot of confidence. Sometimes managers aren't
really that good at articulating it, and they're a bit
fluffy too. So if you feel like you're getting a fluffy,
vague answer, you could ask something like, how would you
write how I'm going right now? At a ten? And
no one ever says a ten. If they do, you're
(03:53):
probably getting it promotion already. So when they say, oh,
you know, probably about an eight, and you're like, okay, cool,
what would a ten look like, and that's where you
get something really concrete out of them to work with.
You know, you've got their words, their experien's and a
really clear path forward because I'll say specific things there
and it can be vulnerable. Oh my god, but you got.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
To have to do it. Yeah, good luck, but you
have to do it. Okay, So you ask the questions
to know when you're ready for a promotion. The next up,
we're going to chat about how to actually get that
promotion with your manager. Okay, So say I've just had
(04:35):
that chat with my manager, I have like feedback, I've
worked on that feedback. I feel like I'm in a
good space. How do I actually bring up the actual promotion?
Do I have to say the word promotion because I
feel like the word itself is like so scary, I know.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
And it's quite forthright and presumptuous. It feels presumptuous. Am
you're going to promote me? I like to use words
around that, because I mean, a promotion isn't in game
or it's as a result, but there are things that
happened before then, So things like you know, what would
success look like at the next level, or what would
you need to see from me to feel really confident
(05:10):
promoting me, because a great promotion conversation isn't about doing more.
It's about how you're showing your thinking differently and how
you're preparing yourself to get ready to operate at that
next level. I like that.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
So it's like a proper plan you're putting in place.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, exactly. Really shifts the conversation from I want this,
It shifts it over to I want to work towards this,
and I think already that would feel a little less confronting,
and then you can ask things like you know, what
can I focus on this month to move closer to that.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It's very interesting because I feel like when you hear
the word promotion, and some companies do this where they
have it so formally set up that you know you're
on this level and then you have to do this
to get to this level and you have to do
this to get to this level. But with promotions, I
feel like you can also kind of have exactly what
you said that input yourself, Like it doesn't always have
(06:01):
to be black and white. You can say I'm really
interested in this if I develop the skill, would like
that also contribute to my promotion.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Oh my gosh, I don't even get me started on this,
because your manager is not the person who's going to
just set the path for your career. It's your career.
What do you want to do with it? Yeah, And
so often people don't stop to ask themselves the question
of like do I actually want the promotion? And if
you do, that's great, right, Like let's co design, let's
build your own ladder, and rather than waiting for one
(06:29):
to appear, because your career letter doesn't have to go up,
it can go sideways too.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, we always talk about the lateral as well, and
I feel like it shows that you're also really excited
about your next steps, and that shows that you're also
as invested in your company as a company is in you.
I think when I used to be a manager, the
best thing was seeing all the kind of pockets that
the people I managed wanted to go into and do,
(06:55):
like stuff that I didn't even consider that was part
of their role that could help elevate the entire team.
And I think people thinking outside the box of what
they can bring outside of the criteria, it just is
so so helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's good for you and it's good for the business,
especially if you're really strong at something. I mean, I
remember the first teen years of my career, the only
thing I could see was that my boss's job was
the job I should have next. Yeah, and I just
like working my way up on this elevator. But then
I started thinking like, oh, I actually really like the
people side of this work, and you know, contributing to
(07:28):
what the broader culture is, etc. And took a sideway
step or what many people viewed as a sideway step,
And I couldn't have been happier.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I love that. That's such good advice. Okay, next tup,
we're going to be showing you how to build a
strong professional reputation so when the opportunity does come along,
you can count on the support for your entire team
to be behind you. So if someone's doing the work
(07:57):
and having the chats, what else kind of holds people
back during that time? That pivotal time in.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Your career gets reputation. So if you're just quietly chipping
away in the background and people aren't aware and the
work's not visible, and let's be honest, like a lot
of us do not want to big note what we're doing. Yeah,
so we just quietly sit there achieving. When I talk
about reputation, I don't mean like having the biggest personality
or shouting all your wins from the roof and going
look at me, look what I did this month. I
(08:24):
mean this quiet reputation you build over time, because one
thing I have seen time and again through teams that
I've worked with and teams that I've spoken to people about,
is that promotions don't go to the loudest person. They
go to the most trusted. Think about the people around
you that have been promoting. You're like, oh, yeah, Sophie
should totally be there. I always pick on Sophie in
our episodes because she's our producer. Sophie should absolutely get
(08:48):
that promotion, Like we trust her one hundred percent, So
it's not the loudest person going. I can do this
and I can do that. I think you also have
to ask yourself, like, what do people say about me
when I'm not in the room, because that's often what
determines what is happening in terms of getting tapped on
the shoulder.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So list what I really liked what you say about
that is that promotions don't always go to the loudest person,
but it's all about like the people who like you,
trust and stuff like that, which could be like the
quietest person on your team, because I feel like historically
we've been told that the reason why men get promotions
is because they're so good at talking themselves up really
loudly and being the loudest in the room and constantly
(09:26):
backing themselves. Like according to a widely quoted Hewlett Packard report,
men apply for jobs when they meet about sixty percent
of the listed criteria, while women tend to apply only
when they believe they meet one hundred percent of the criteria.
And this is actually so true to me when I
first started working at Mum and mea because I was
actually scouted on LinkedIn and after I got scattered on
(09:49):
LinkedIn and they asked if I would come to interview
for a social media assistant role. I was so young.
I looked at the criteria and I was like, oh
my god, I'm so out of my dep like, there's
no way I'm going to do it. And my mom
was like, you probably won't get it, but you've never
interviewed for a job before, so why don't you just
do it to see what it's like. And I was
like okay, and then I got the job and I
probably met about like literally fifty percent of the criteria.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
That is brilliant. Advice to your mum. Can we get
around as a guest.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We should. I'm just talking about my mind.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
We'll do phone a friend, actually phone a friend. Mum.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Do you remember when you told me I would never
get that job? But do it anyway?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I think I might call it for some advice you
give me hear a number after this game. I will.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But it is good to see that if that's not
your characteristic to constantly like back yourself and talk yourself
up loudly, that you're still being seen.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And there are quiet ways to do this. I mean
a lot of people talk about getting a mentor, and
the other thing I would say is you can get
a sponsor. And I'll touch on what that means in
a sec Before you even get to that part. I
think there are four quiet things that you can do
to easily build your trust and your reputation. The first
one would be be known for being consistent. So do
what you say you're going to do and when you're
(10:57):
going to do it goes so far in building trust.
The other is deliver on your promises. I would share
my progress with my manager regularly, so it doesn't mean
I'm shouting it from the rooftops. But I'm not doing
in a braggy way. But I am doing things like, hey,
here's how I'm tracking on what we talked about or
what we agreed I would work towards. And that big one,
which I've touched on briefly, there was build relationships outside
(11:18):
of your immediate team, people across the business knowing your
name for the right reasons. And I mentioned the word sponsor. Yeah,
do you know the difference between a mentor and a sponsor?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
In wait, I feel like I go over this all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We have touched on it before you and I I know.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And now you're gonna quizz me, and now I'm completely
out of my head. I feel not a quiz is
a mentor someone that guides you in your career, and
a sponsor is someone who's outside of your kind of
industry and network, and they are I don't know, well,
messing it up. I'm just wasting your time. We both
know this.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You are not wasting because most people actually haven't heard
of a sponsor.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And I feel like It's quite an old school term
because I know my mum would talk about sponsors.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
A lot, and that day I need to meet your mom.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There's been episodes we've done while I'm like, oh my god,
my mom should have replaced me in this episode.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
When I come to sitting next, I'm gonna have dinner
with your mum. So the difference between a mentor and
sponsor is really so a mentorship is about providing advice
and guidance. They're usually someone who has done the role
before you, yeah, and they're helping you develop particular skills
and knowledge about that role right. Whereas a sponsor, on
the other hand, a lot of people don't have a sponsor,
but it's one of the best quiet ways you can
work on getting a promotion. So a sponsorship involves this
(12:34):
active advocacy. They're someone who can influence or create opportunities
or advance that person's career. So they might not be
your manager, but they might be a manager's manager or
someone peripheral to that that sees your contribution and sees
what you can be doing. So mentorship can be informal,
but sponsorship promotes. I guess this like visibility and accelerates
(12:55):
the career progression because they can within a business.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Interesting because I always thought because I have someone here
in the office, so I've talked about a lot Ruth, Yeah,
my mentor, But I think she's more of a sponsor
then because she's not like my direct manager. She's actually
not my manager's manager either. She's like a bit on
the side. But great is also in that area that like,
I really want to advance in as well.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, that's awesome. So you have a sponsor. You may
even also have mentors around you who are maybe slightly
more senial or more experienced in the role that you're
doing right now, that can give you skills and practical advice.
But that's awesome that you have a sponsor because that
person is then helping with your reputation. They're talking about
you when you're not in the room and the work
that you have been doing. So it's a really great
one to build your network and look out for those
(13:39):
people too.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oh that's so good, and that's such a great way
to also show I guess bringing back to our first
point to know when you're ready for a promotion is
surely your sponsor or. Your mentor would be the person
to like actually tell you and help you along that
journey one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Otherwise you're in your head, so you need some sounding
boards around you.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, okay, So we also have to talk about how
you could do all of these things to get a promotion.
You could tick all of the boxes, and sometimes you
still don't get it, depending on where the company is now,
if they can afford that certain role, if they can
even afford to promote you or give you a pay rise,
or if it's already going to someone else so they've considered.
(14:19):
Sometimes you just want to get a promotion and it
does suck, and it happens a lot of the time.
So how do we actually manage ourselves after we get
turned down?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I love that you said it sucks, because it does suck. It.
It's a really hard moment. There's so much emotional build
up to it, don't you think? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I feel like it's so hard to not take it personally.
It's one of those situations where it happens and you
immediately still have to be professional, unlike a breakup, where
it happens and you have permission to get emotional of it.
It feels like we aren't given the same permissions for
when we get rejected in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
No way. So many times I've seen people go for
a promotion not get it, and then they're like, okay,
so we've got to go to a client whip now.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, Like, oh, could we just give them a second
to process this.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
All you want to be doing right at that moment,
right is going, well, fuck you all, that's all right,
I'm not getting it.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So I feel like in those rooms when you've just
been rejected from a promotion, your emotions are obviously like skyrocketing,
and I think you do really act quite off the
cuff in that immediate moment. What's something that you can say,
like straight after off the back of that before you
go into like your next meeting, will literally continue your job.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
The anger, the sick feeling, the disappointment, the feeling like
you want to cry, like that's all totally normal. I
think if you can just try and straight at it
as much as possible and go this is obviously really disappointing,
but I'm here and I really want to work to
the words that role still, if you've got some specific
feedback he can give me on how I can keep
doing that I'd love to hear it. So not getting promoted,
(15:48):
I don't think it means it's a waste of time.
It's still progress because you're getting all that feedback along
the way. But it is your chance to regroup and
go what next?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Is it always like I may as well quit start
somewhere else for.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Some pillters, And let's be honest, like, I mean, I've
been there. I'm sure you have been to you like, well,
I'll fine, I'll go find something else. And that's a
normal reaction, right because it does feel personal at times.
You don't necessarily need to jump ship straight away. Okay,
so leaving too quickly I think that you can miss
the growth that could be in front of you as well,
But also stay too long and your things can start
(16:22):
to feel a bit stale. Something I love to do
is pick a bit of an experiment. So if you're
in that in between moment, like you're trying to spark
some growth before you bolt, you may have missed out
on a promotion. Just test something out before you go,
and it could be one of these four things. You
could try learning above your level, which is like taking
on a skill that's not currently in your role, or
that your role doesn't demand of you. But it's to
(16:44):
do with the next one. You're showing everyone around you
that very maturely you are still on that track and
you are still focused on it. You can also use
it wherever else you go. Yeah, the second thing you
could do would be to jump into a bit of
a cross team project, so you're thinking about new problems
you could lead. They can stimulate a bit of new thinking.
They might even show you a different way or a
different type of role that you might be suited for. Two.
(17:06):
So that's a good one. You could also ask for stretch,
so not for status. So what I mean by that
is like, what bigger problem could I help solve in
the next ninety days? Now? Where that's going to help
you and where that's going to help the business. Where
it's going to help the business is it shows that
you're committed, you're still here to solve problems and you
have a lot to bring. And where it's going to
help you is you get all those things. Plus if
(17:28):
you do leave, you can take that with you as
an example.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
That's such a good point. So you're constantly like helping
yourself after you've been rejected. It's not just so immediate
like throwing everything in the fire, going okay, I'm done,
I'm leaving. But you're actually like setting yourself up for
your next role, whether that would be in the company
at another date or somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, and you're doing it in a really productive way,
so you're not leaving in a negative way. You're going,
what can I do to make my most of the
time here, and that you know what you might get
through that, like ninety day experiment or projects and go.
Someone might tap you on the shold and go, there's
actually a roll over here. We think you'd be grateful
or conversely like I'm going to use that example and
use it to find my next role too. And the
(18:11):
other thing you can do is just fix a friction point.
Everyone loves the person at work who can fix something.
So you spot something that's not working, come up with
some kind of solution and show how you can make
that better for everyone else, and again benefits the business
but also benefits you in the long run.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's so true. And I also feel like if you
were to move businesses, a good company would know that
that would be the direction you would take. An X
like especially if they know you're deserving of a promotion
and they just can't afford it. They would like also
encourage you to like not just look elsewhere, but to
also tell you that you've done everything you can over here.
(18:49):
We want to see succeed and that will only happen
if you go somewhere else. Like that's what a good
company will do, and it won't be better.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Good companies do do that, and good leaders do do that.
And this really circles back to that point we were
talking before about reputation. Yes, you can go, well fuck it,
I'm going to leave. Yeah, how's that going to impact
your reputation versus if you took this approach and went,
let me just test the waters here, even if it's
for the next three months, and try one of these
things that I've just suggested, then you have a little
(19:17):
bit more information to work with and you can also
find the next thing, whether it's at the team that
you are at now or in a totally different business.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and you could also bounce back, and that I
think we've talked about this before that if you leave,
you never know like who you'll be working with in
the future, and if you will come back like I did,
I left on me and I came back, and there's
no way that would happen if you left on like
bad terms.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Oh my gosh. I remember missing out on a promotion
once and then someone else getting it and a few
months down the track going oh my god, I'm so
glad I didn't get that job.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Wow. That's yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Soe you never know how things are going to work out.
And then also, like I was talking to you about before,
you can also sideways step into a totally different area
of the business and actually really like lean into your
strengths and the stuff that you like to do.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, there's so many more opportunities and to just constantly
get promoted up the.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Ladder, yes, yeah, and that just requires a bit of
lateral thinking around what else is out there and what
do I actually really enjoy? You spend so much time
at work. I think we need to get out of
this whole mindset of a promotion and my boss's job
is the only next answer? Yeah, what else do I
want to do at work? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I love this so and.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Before I jump into our out. So that's how one
useful thing for today. Yep, Like we've covered quite a
lot of ground here around this playbook and what people
can do in the next steps. What's the biggest thing
that jumped out for you in our convo today?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think exactly what you said right at the beginning,
because even now, and I've been in this industry for
about seven years now, but even now, talking about yourself
and talking yourself up is still something I find so
so hard, Like even saying the word promotion is just
something that feels like it should be blacklisted from my vocabulary,
(20:58):
so I just never say it. But I think what
you suggested, like the questions around the promotion without actually
directly saying it, like what would success look like on
the next level, even like the ranking out of ten?
I'm a numbers girl, so that just perfectly makes sense
in my head. I think that is such an easy
way to at your next manager whip. It doesn't have
(21:19):
to be like these formal meetings, but like my next
weekly whip. You can just say, hey, so I'm really
looking forward to advancing in my career. What do you
think would be my next level and how do you
think I'll get there? Like that's something so simple that
can actually also like tell your manager that you are
going to gun for a promotion one day and like
get them ready for it as well.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Absolutely, because no one's going to walk in a meeting
room one day and be like, oh, by the way,
we just thought we'd promote you and you have no
idea that was coming. There's always a plan in motion
and you're always working towards it, so you might as
well be part of that plan and work together on it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Ah, it was just such good advice. I feel like
we need to definitely put that in our newsletter that
we send every weekly, like the questions that you should
ask instead of like, hey, can I get my promotion now?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yes? Nice way to warm someone up, right. I think
you know, if you ask your manager like what would
success look like for me at the next level, you
are planning that set in their mind and that one
question just opens the door to everything else. So I
think consider this your nudge. Yes, ask a question any
of the questions that we've shared today, or any of
the one liners or the situations that you've shared there,
(22:25):
m start the conversation and just let us know how
it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm so excited to hear dm us on Instagram. We
are always perving on our DM so if you have
any questions or topics you want us to cover, or
if our advice has actually helped you and you've also
gotten a promotion off the back of this, we would
love to know. You can always DM us at biz
by Mom and Maya. That is all we have for
this week's episode of Biz. We know you're juggling deadlines
(22:50):
and meetings, so thank you so much for spending your
day with us. Hopefully these insights help you tackle your
next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence and plus
for extra content. Like I said, you can always follow
us on Instagram at biz by mam and Miya for
all your workplace insights and behind the scenes content. If
you want more of these topics, check out our very
free newsletter. It's completely free. It's such a good asset.
(23:12):
We'll put a link to that in our show.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Notes Business, produced by Sophie Campbell with audio by Leah Porges.
We'll be back in your podcast feed next week with
more no nonsense work chat and until then, back yourself,
ask for what you want and remember even the most
confident people are figuring it out as they go. See
you next time.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Bye, Mamma, Maya, acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
You're listening to Amma mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to biz your work Life Sorted. I'm
m Burnham and.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Lisa Lee. I'm a former head of People in Culture,
an organizational coach, and the founder of Lerner, which is
a micro learning app that helps you learn the people
skills to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So good. I feel like I haven't talked to you
in so long, even.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Though it's been a week too long, way too long.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Too long for us. We have a really exciting episode
today because we are going to teach you how to
stop waiting around for someone to tell you that you're
ready for a promotion, and how to actually make it happen. Instead,
we are giving you the exact playbook you need.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, we'd love a playbook, don't we. So am around
the dystopia. I feel like I'm talking to so many
people who are thinking, am I ready for a promotion?
And if I am, how do I even position myself
for that next level without sounding really pushy or awkward
about it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I have so many friends who are going through this
right now where they really really want a promotion. But
I think with that tall poppy syndrome that a lot
of us have. They don't want to overstep or make
it really weird with their manager.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah yeah, obvious, seem overly pushy or like they deserve it.
I think there's that, and there's also working your way up.
Isn't just about putting in more hours and hoping someone notices.
I see so many people do this. It actually takes intention,
a bit of timing, and also a little bit of
strategy around it. So it's three parts we're going to
cover as part of this playbook. First, one is how
don't know if you're ready. Then also how to ask
(01:41):
for that promotion without being weird, and also how to
build a reputation that makes people want to champion your career.
And I think this is the part that so many
people miss. I'm really excited to cover it today because
if you're waiting to be tapped on the shoulder, you
might be waiting a long time.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And I've been waiting a long time. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
There's been times I've been waiting a long time. But
oh my god, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
The biggest question that's coming up in a lot of
convos I have with people at the moment is how
do you know if you're actually ready to be promoted?
And one of the most common things I hear is
that people assume they're ready because they've been in the
role for a while. But time and seat doesn't always
equal readiness. I actually think that progress isn't about how
long you've been somewhere, It's about the impact you've made
(02:27):
while you've been there. So to workout if you're actually ready,
you need to start with a super clear picture of
how your manager sees how you're going. You want to
be asking them things like how do you think I'm
tracking my role right now? Or what's one thing I
could be doing better? And these kind of questions will
Have you tried these before?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It sounds so easy, but I feel like I don't know,
there's something in my heart that just goes ugh. You
have to have like so much confidence to do that,
and it just feels kind of vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, And I've seen people almost set it up in
an agenda beforehand, or say here's something i'd like to cover,
so it's on the table before you walk in the room.
Even that question around how am I tracking my role?
We'd cover that now one on one. You don't have
to be as full on as like eyeballing someone right now,
like I am with you, where I'm going? How am
I doing right now?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And putting them on the spot, yeah, because it can
feel awkward for both people, not just the person asking.
But the reality is is that if you're not asking
those kind of questions, you're not getting the feedback you need,
and you need to open the door to that feedback
because then you're not waiting for this formal check in
or this performance cycle and all the build up that
comes with that to then just be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
The other thing I want to say is like you
were touching on this before around putting that on the table,
and it requires a lot of confidence. Sometimes managers aren't
really that good at articulating it, and they're a bit
fluffy too. So if you feel like you're getting a fluffy,
vague answer, you could ask something like, how would you
write how I'm going right now? At a ten? And
no one ever says a ten. If they do, you're
(03:53):
probably getting it promotion already. So when they say, oh,
you know, probably about an eight, and you're like, okay, cool,
what would a ten look like, and that's where you
get something really concrete out of them to work with.
You know, you've got their words, their experien's and a
really clear path forward because I'll say specific things there
and it can be vulnerable. Oh my god, but you got.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
To have to do it. Yeah, good luck, but you
have to do it. Okay, So you ask the questions
to know when you're ready for a promotion. The next up,
we're going to chat about how to actually get that
promotion with your manager. Okay, So say I've just had
(04:35):
that chat with my manager, I have like feedback, I've
worked on that feedback. I feel like I'm in a
good space. How do I actually bring up the actual promotion?
Do I have to say the word promotion because I
feel like the word itself is like so scary, I know.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
And it's quite forthright and presumptuous. It feels presumptuous. Am
you're going to promote me? I like to use words
around that, because I mean, a promotion isn't in game
or it's as a result, but there are things that
happened before then, So things like you know, what would
success look like at the next level, or what would
you need to see from me to feel really confident
(05:10):
promoting me, because a great promotion conversation isn't about doing more.
It's about how you're showing your thinking differently and how
you're preparing yourself to get ready to operate at that
next level. I like that.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
So it's like a proper plan you're putting in place.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, exactly. Really shifts the conversation from I want this,
It shifts it over to I want to work towards this,
and I think already that would feel a little less confronting,
and then you can ask things like you know, what
can I focus on this month to move closer to that.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It's very interesting because I feel like when you hear
the word promotion, and some companies do this where they
have it so formally set up that you know you're
on this level and then you have to do this
to get to this level and you have to do
this to get to this level. But with promotions, I
feel like you can also kind of have exactly what
you said that input yourself, Like it doesn't always have
(06:01):
to be black and white. You can say I'm really
interested in this if I develop the skill, would like
that also contribute to my promotion.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Oh my gosh, I don't even get me started on this,
because your manager is not the person who's going to
just set the path for your career. It's your career.
What do you want to do with it? Yeah, And
so often people don't stop to ask themselves the question
of like do I actually want the promotion? And if
you do, that's great, right, Like let's co design, let's
build your own ladder, and rather than waiting for one
(06:29):
to appear, because your career letter doesn't have to go up,
it can go sideways too.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, we always talk about the lateral as well, and
I feel like it shows that you're also really excited
about your next steps, and that shows that you're also
as invested in your company as a company is in you.
I think when I used to be a manager, the
best thing was seeing all the kind of pockets that
the people I managed wanted to go into and do,
(06:55):
like stuff that I didn't even consider that was part
of their role that could help elevate the entire team.
And I think people thinking outside the box of what
they can bring outside of the criteria, it just is
so so helpful.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's good for you and it's good for the business,
especially if you're really strong at something. I mean, I
remember the first teen years of my career, the only
thing I could see was that my boss's job was
the job I should have next. Yeah, and I just
like working my way up on this elevator. But then
I started thinking like, oh, I actually really like the
people side of this work, and you know, contributing to
(07:28):
what the broader culture is, etc. And took a sideway
step or what many people viewed as a sideway step,
And I couldn't have been happier.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I love that. That's such good advice. Okay, next tup,
we're going to be showing you how to build a
strong professional reputation so when the opportunity does come along,
you can count on the support for your entire team
to be behind you. So if someone's doing the work
(07:57):
and having the chats, what else kind of holds people
back during that time? That pivotal time in.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Your career gets reputation. So if you're just quietly chipping
away in the background and people aren't aware and the
work's not visible, and let's be honest, like a lot
of us do not want to big note what we're doing. Yeah,
so we just quietly sit there achieving. When I talk
about reputation, I don't mean like having the biggest personality
or shouting all your wins from the roof and going
look at me, look what I did this month. I
(08:24):
mean this quiet reputation you build over time, because one
thing I have seen time and again through teams that
I've worked with and teams that I've spoken to people about,
is that promotions don't go to the loudest person. They
go to the most trusted. Think about the people around
you that have been promoting. You're like, oh, yeah, Sophie
should totally be there. I always pick on Sophie in
our episodes because she's our producer. Sophie should absolutely get
(08:48):
that promotion, Like we trust her one hundred percent, So
it's not the loudest person going. I can do this
and I can do that. I think you also have
to ask yourself, like, what do people say about me
when I'm not in the room, because that's often what
determines what is happening in terms of getting tapped on
the shoulder.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So list what I really liked what you say about
that is that promotions don't always go to the loudest person,
but it's all about like the people who like you,
trust and stuff like that, which could be like the
quietest person on your team, because I feel like historically
we've been told that the reason why men get promotions
is because they're so good at talking themselves up really
loudly and being the loudest in the room and constantly
(09:26):
backing themselves. Like according to a widely quoted Hewlett Packard report,
men apply for jobs when they meet about sixty percent
of the listed criteria, while women tend to apply only
when they believe they meet one hundred percent of the criteria.
And this is actually so true to me when I
first started working at Mum and mea because I was
actually scouted on LinkedIn and after I got scattered on
(09:49):
LinkedIn and they asked if I would come to interview
for a social media assistant role. I was so young.
I looked at the criteria and I was like, oh
my god, I'm so out of my dep like, there's
no way I'm going to do it. And my mom
was like, you probably won't get it, but you've never
interviewed for a job before, so why don't you just
do it to see what it's like. And I was
like okay, and then I got the job and I
probably met about like literally fifty percent of the criteria.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
That is brilliant. Advice to your mum. Can we get
around as a guest.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We should. I'm just talking about my mind.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
We'll do phone a friend, actually phone a friend. Mum.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Do you remember when you told me I would never
get that job? But do it anyway?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I think I might call it for some advice you
give me hear a number after this game. I will.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But it is good to see that if that's not
your characteristic to constantly like back yourself and talk yourself
up loudly, that you're still being seen.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And there are quiet ways to do this. I mean
a lot of people talk about getting a mentor, and
the other thing I would say is you can get
a sponsor. And I'll touch on what that means in
a sec Before you even get to that part. I
think there are four quiet things that you can do
to easily build your trust and your reputation. The first
one would be be known for being consistent. So do
what you say you're going to do and when you're
(10:57):
going to do it goes so far in building trust.
The other is deliver on your promises. I would share
my progress with my manager regularly, so it doesn't mean
I'm shouting it from the rooftops. But I'm not doing
in a braggy way. But I am doing things like, hey,
here's how I'm tracking on what we talked about or
what we agreed I would work towards. And that big one,
which I've touched on briefly, there was build relationships outside
(11:18):
of your immediate team, people across the business knowing your
name for the right reasons. And I mentioned the word sponsor. Yeah,
do you know the difference between a mentor and a sponsor?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
In wait, I feel like I go over this all
the time.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We have touched on it before you and I I know.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And now you're gonna quizz me, and now I'm completely
out of my head. I feel not a quiz is
a mentor someone that guides you in your career, and
a sponsor is someone who's outside of your kind of
industry and network, and they are I don't know, well,
messing it up. I'm just wasting your time. We both
know this.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You are not wasting because most people actually haven't heard
of a sponsor.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And I feel like It's quite an old school term
because I know my mum would talk about sponsors.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
A lot, and that day I need to meet your mom.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
There's been episodes we've done while I'm like, oh my god,
my mom should have replaced me in this episode.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
When I come to sitting next, I'm gonna have dinner
with your mum. So the difference between a mentor and
sponsor is really so a mentorship is about providing advice
and guidance. They're usually someone who has done the role
before you, yeah, and they're helping you develop particular skills
and knowledge about that role right. Whereas a sponsor, on
the other hand, a lot of people don't have a sponsor,
but it's one of the best quiet ways you can
work on getting a promotion. So a sponsorship involves this
(12:34):
active advocacy. They're someone who can influence or create opportunities
or advance that person's career. So they might not be
your manager, but they might be a manager's manager or
someone peripheral to that that sees your contribution and sees
what you can be doing. So mentorship can be informal,
but sponsorship promotes. I guess this like visibility and accelerates
(12:55):
the career progression because they can within a business.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Interesting because I always thought because I have someone here
in the office, so I've talked about a lot Ruth, Yeah,
my mentor, But I think she's more of a sponsor
then because she's not like my direct manager. She's actually
not my manager's manager either. She's like a bit on
the side. But great is also in that area that like,
I really want to advance in as well.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, that's awesome. So you have a sponsor. You may
even also have mentors around you who are maybe slightly
more senial or more experienced in the role that you're
doing right now, that can give you skills and practical advice.
But that's awesome that you have a sponsor because that
person is then helping with your reputation. They're talking about
you when you're not in the room and the work
that you have been doing. So it's a really great
one to build your network and look out for those
(13:39):
people too.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oh that's so good, and that's such a great way
to also show I guess bringing back to our first
point to know when you're ready for a promotion is
surely your sponsor or. Your mentor would be the person
to like actually tell you and help you along that
journey one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Otherwise you're in your head, so you need some sounding
boards around you.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, okay, So we also have to talk about how
you could do all of these things to get a promotion.
You could tick all of the boxes, and sometimes you
still don't get it, depending on where the company is now,
if they can afford that certain role, if they can
even afford to promote you or give you a pay rise,
or if it's already going to someone else so they've considered.
(14:19):
Sometimes you just want to get a promotion and it
does suck, and it happens a lot of the time.
So how do we actually manage ourselves after we get
turned down?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
I love that you said it sucks, because it does suck. It.
It's a really hard moment. There's so much emotional build
up to it, don't you think? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I feel like it's so hard to not take it personally.
It's one of those situations where it happens and you
immediately still have to be professional, unlike a breakup, where
it happens and you have permission to get emotional of it.
It feels like we aren't given the same permissions for
when we get rejected in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
No way. So many times I've seen people go for
a promotion not get it, and then they're like, okay,
so we've got to go to a client whip now.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, Like, oh, could we just give them a second
to process this.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
All you want to be doing right at that moment,
right is going, well, fuck you all, that's all right,
I'm not getting it.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
So I feel like in those rooms when you've just
been rejected from a promotion, your emotions are obviously like skyrocketing,
and I think you do really act quite off the
cuff in that immediate moment. What's something that you can say,
like straight after off the back of that before you
go into like your next meeting, will literally continue your job.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
The anger, the sick feeling, the disappointment, the feeling like
you want to cry, like that's all totally normal. I
think if you can just try and straight at it
as much as possible and go this is obviously really disappointing,
but I'm here and I really want to work to
the words that role still, if you've got some specific
feedback he can give me on how I can keep
doing that I'd love to hear it. So not getting promoted,
(15:48):
I don't think it means it's a waste of time.
It's still progress because you're getting all that feedback along
the way. But it is your chance to regroup and
go what next?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Is it always like I may as well quit start
somewhere else for.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Some pillters, And let's be honest, like, I mean, I've
been there. I'm sure you have been to you like, well,
I'll fine, I'll go find something else. And that's a
normal reaction, right because it does feel personal at times.
You don't necessarily need to jump ship straight away. Okay,
so leaving too quickly I think that you can miss
the growth that could be in front of you as well,
But also stay too long and your things can start
(16:22):
to feel a bit stale. Something I love to do
is pick a bit of an experiment. So if you're
in that in between moment, like you're trying to spark
some growth before you bolt, you may have missed out
on a promotion. Just test something out before you go,
and it could be one of these four things. You
could try learning above your level, which is like taking
on a skill that's not currently in your role, or
that your role doesn't demand of you. But it's to
(16:44):
do with the next one. You're showing everyone around you
that very maturely you are still on that track and
you are still focused on it. You can also use
it wherever else you go. Yeah, the second thing you
could do would be to jump into a bit of
a cross team project, so you're thinking about new problems
you could lead. They can stimulate a bit of new thinking.
They might even show you a different way or a
different type of role that you might be suited for. Two.
(17:06):
So that's a good one. You could also ask for stretch,
so not for status. So what I mean by that
is like, what bigger problem could I help solve in
the next ninety days? Now? Where that's going to help
you and where that's going to help the business. Where
it's going to help the business is it shows that
you're committed, you're still here to solve problems and you
have a lot to bring. And where it's going to
help you is you get all those things. Plus if
(17:28):
you do leave, you can take that with you as
an example.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
That's such a good point. So you're constantly like helping
yourself after you've been rejected. It's not just so immediate
like throwing everything in the fire, going okay, I'm done,
I'm leaving. But you're actually like setting yourself up for
your next role, whether that would be in the company
at another date or somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, and you're doing it in a really productive way,
so you're not leaving in a negative way. You're going,
what can I do to make my most of the
time here, and that you know what you might get
through that, like ninety day experiment or projects and go.
Someone might tap you on the shold and go, there's
actually a roll over here. We think you'd be grateful
or conversely like I'm going to use that example and
use it to find my next role too. And the
(18:11):
other thing you can do is just fix a friction point.
Everyone loves the person at work who can fix something.
So you spot something that's not working, come up with
some kind of solution and show how you can make
that better for everyone else, and again benefits the business
but also benefits you in the long run.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
That's so true. And I also feel like if you
were to move businesses, a good company would know that
that would be the direction you would take. An X
like especially if they know you're deserving of a promotion
and they just can't afford it. They would like also
encourage you to like not just look elsewhere, but to
also tell you that you've done everything you can over here.
(18:49):
We want to see succeed and that will only happen
if you go somewhere else. Like that's what a good
company will do, and it won't be better.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Good companies do do that, and good leaders do do that.
And this really circles back to that point we were
talking before about reputation. Yes, you can go, well fuck it,
I'm going to leave. Yeah, how's that going to impact
your reputation versus if you took this approach and went,
let me just test the waters here, even if it's
for the next three months, and try one of these
things that I've just suggested, then you have a little
(19:17):
bit more information to work with and you can also
find the next thing, whether it's at the team that
you are at now or in a totally different business.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, and you could also bounce back, and that I
think we've talked about this before that if you leave,
you never know like who you'll be working with in
the future, and if you will come back like I did,
I left on me and I came back, and there's
no way that would happen if you left on like
bad terms.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Oh my gosh. I remember missing out on a promotion
once and then someone else getting it and a few
months down the track going oh my god, I'm so
glad I didn't get that job.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Wow. That's yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Soe you never know how things are going to work out.
And then also, like I was talking to you about before,
you can also sideways step into a totally different area
of the business and actually really like lean into your
strengths and the stuff that you like to do.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, there's so many more opportunities and to just constantly
get promoted up the.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Ladder, yes, yeah, and that just requires a bit of
lateral thinking around what else is out there and what
do I actually really enjoy? You spend so much time
at work. I think we need to get out of
this whole mindset of a promotion and my boss's job
is the only next answer? Yeah, what else do I
want to do at work? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I love this so and.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Before I jump into our out. So that's how one
useful thing for today. Yep, Like we've covered quite a
lot of ground here around this playbook and what people
can do in the next steps. What's the biggest thing
that jumped out for you in our convo today?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think exactly what you said right at the beginning,
because even now, and I've been in this industry for
about seven years now, but even now, talking about yourself
and talking yourself up is still something I find so
so hard, Like even saying the word promotion is just
something that feels like it should be blacklisted from my vocabulary,
(20:58):
so I just never say it. But I think what
you suggested, like the questions around the promotion without actually
directly saying it, like what would success look like on
the next level, even like the ranking out of ten?
I'm a numbers girl, so that just perfectly makes sense
in my head. I think that is such an easy
way to at your next manager whip. It doesn't have
(21:19):
to be like these formal meetings, but like my next
weekly whip. You can just say, hey, so I'm really
looking forward to advancing in my career. What do you
think would be my next level and how do you
think I'll get there? Like that's something so simple that
can actually also like tell your manager that you are
going to gun for a promotion one day and like
get them ready for it as well.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Absolutely, because no one's going to walk in a meeting
room one day and be like, oh, by the way,
we just thought we'd promote you and you have no
idea that was coming. There's always a plan in motion
and you're always working towards it, so you might as
well be part of that plan and work together on it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Ah, it was just such good advice. I feel like
we need to definitely put that in our newsletter that
we send every weekly, like the questions that you should
ask instead of like, hey, can I get my promotion now?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yes? Nice way to warm someone up, right. I think
you know, if you ask your manager like what would
success look like for me at the next level, you
are planning that set in their mind and that one
question just opens the door to everything else. So I
think consider this your nudge. Yes, ask a question any
of the questions that we've shared today, or any of
the one liners or the situations that you've shared there,
(22:25):
m start the conversation and just let us know how
it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I'm so excited to hear dm us on Instagram. We
are always perving on our DM so if you have
any questions or topics you want us to cover, or
if our advice has actually helped you and you've also
gotten a promotion off the back of this, we would
love to know. You can always DM us at biz
by Mom and Maya. That is all we have for
this week's episode of Biz. We know you're juggling deadlines
(22:50):
and meetings, so thank you so much for spending your
day with us. Hopefully these insights help you tackle your
next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence and plus
for extra content. Like I said, you can always follow
us on Instagram at biz by mam and Miya for
all your workplace insights and behind the scenes content. If
you want more of these topics, check out our very
free newsletter. It's completely free. It's such a good asset.
(23:12):
We'll put a link to that in our show.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Notes Business, produced by Sophie Campbell with audio by Leah Porges.
We'll be back in your podcast feed next week with
more no nonsense work chat and until then, back yourself,
ask for what you want and remember even the most
confident people are figuring it out as they go. See
you next time.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Bye, Mamma, Maya, acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
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