September 22, 2025 • 18 mins
Being a team manager isn't just about hitting targets - it's about helping your team grow and getting them ready for what's coming next. And right now, the skill that matters most is coaching!
Let's be honest - most new managers feel like they're drowning. Everything's coming at them, everyone's coming at them, and they're stuck in that old-school "delegate and instruct" mode that leaves everyone frustrated. But here's the thing: coaching isn't some mystical two-hour journey exploration. It can be a five-minute conversation with four simple questions.
This week, we break down why coaching is the unlock that transforms you from a micromanager into someone who actually develops their team. They're sharing the practical, no-nonsense approach that builds trust, develops independence, and helps you step back without stepping away.
What you'll learn:
• Why coaching beats the old "tell people what to do" management style every time
• The difference between coaching, mentoring, and managing (and when to use each)
• Five game-changing questions you can use right now - no certification required
• How to resist your "hero complex" and let your team actually solve problems
• The art of "snap coaching" - coaching in the moment when it matters most
• When NOT to coach (because sometimes you just need to give direction)
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
Resources Mentioned:
Learna:'Start coaching in the moment' - Learna'Stop being the team fixer' - Learna'Empower people with coaching' - Learna
Books:
Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stainer
The Advice Trap by Michael Bungay Stainer
THE END BITS
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Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to bid your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm m Vernon and I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm a former head of People in Culture, an organizational coach,
and the founder of Learner.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today we are talking about the number one skill every manager.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Needs, because being a manager isn't just about hitting targets.
It's about helping your team grow and getting them ready
for what's coming next. And the skill that I've seen
like a huge difference when people have it is coaching.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That's so interesting to me. I feel like this is
new news for me, but it does make sense because coaching,
it's like you're also building trust with your team. You're
not just managing them, but you're also setting them up
for the next level of their career. So I feel
like coaching is one of those skills that's very misunderstood
and there's like not that much research out there on there.
(01:02):
So we're going to try to sort you out.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One hundreds of people misuse that phrase all the time,
so we're going to explain exactly what it is, how
to use it to help your team grow, and how
to make your job easier as well. Because who wouldn't
want that, so true, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So my big question is why is coaching specifically the
skill that managers need? Because I feel like we've talked
about management for a few episodes now and it feels
like there's a massive list of things that managers need,
but it seems like coaching is a number one.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I speak to so many managers, right, especially the ones
that have just been promoted, and they're almost tearing their
hair out because they're going, everything's coming at me and
everyone's coming at me. And what happens, and we've talked
about this before, is that often when you're higher forming
team member, you get promoted into a manager role, but
then you haven't been taught how to shift from getting
this work done to then getting the best from others
(01:57):
to get the work done. And the reason why I
then think it's the number one skill, right, is that
that's the unlock, that's what you can do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So it's also about just like helping others, I guess,
not just in like managing them from a company point
of view, but like also developing their career as a whole.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I think a lot of people have seeing like this
old school way of managing where your manager like just
delegate shits you and they hand out instructions and you
just do what they say all the time. But that's
not how to get the best out of the team
and also the best way to spend your time to
You've got to be able to help your team actually grow,
adapt from problem solve on the fly, not just create
this reliance on you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
All the time.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Coaching is the thing that will help you do that.
So this isn't just my take. I've got a couple
of books with you. I know you love when I
bring books.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm such a big reader. Was it the for Amendment?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The Four Agreements?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Like Biblical?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
These are super practical. Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I would almost say that if you're a manager of
people leader and you only read one book, even though
I've got two here, it would be this one. This
one's called you can see it's well read as well.
This one's called The Coaching Habit, and it gives you
a whole bunch of questions and things you can just
use in the every day to make work less hard.
Oh my god, I love the other one that's sitting
there is by Michael Bungaystania, by the way is the
(03:13):
advice trap, and it kind of builds on that in
terms of how we're all addicted to just giving advice
all the time, But maybe our advice is not right,
and maybe the other person actually has the answer right
and we can encourage them to build that thinking. So
we're not creating this team that just relies on us
to do anything.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So what career phase do you think someone should be
in when before they start thinking about coaching. Is that
something you think about the minute you become a manager,
or something you think about before, or like when you've
been in it for a while.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I would start thinking about it as I've become a manager,
because okay, as you step into it, right, your style
has to change a bit. Think of this as almost
like a tool you can use. You don't have to
be like me and do like a full blown certified coaching,
situation and training thing, but you can pick up a
few interesting questions along the way to start coaching and
asking questions rather than your first response being let me
(04:03):
just give the answer. M Yeah, that's where you're gonna
drown when you become a manager. And when I hear
the managers talk to me, they go, oh, I just
don't know if I'm cut out to be a manager
like everyone and everything's coming at me. I'm like, if
only you've had this skill, yeah, we can start to
change some things.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's so true. And I feel like, even if you're
not a manager, you can still be a good coach
to someone like you can still help develop their career
and still gain these like skill sets, because there will
be times in your life where if you're working with someone,
even like a peer, and you just want to help
them out, help their career, but also develop that own
(04:40):
skill set within yourself to know how to coach someone.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, I use it all the time with peers or
even on myself as well, because at the heart of it,
it's actually about pausing, yeah, listening and asking good questions.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And you know, I love a powerful pause.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You do love a powerful pause where I'm like, ah
am I going to jump in sh silence.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
What should I do?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
There is something really magical and that we'll talk about
that coming up around pausing and asking questions and creating
space for people to just get it out the head.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh my god, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So before we.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Get into it, I want one things to be really
clear right, Okay, coaching doesn't mean you never ever give direction,
Like you don't just become a manager then and just
sit there and be like, I'm a coach, I don't
know what do you think?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
The whole time.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
We don't need to go from hardcore delegation micromanaging into
a space where you're like, I don't know what do
you think? That's not what we're talking about here. It's
about understanding, like what the skill is, and not using
delegation or instructions as your first move, but instead asking
a question as your first move and letting some of
the magic happen from there.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Right, So, earlier on we soft launch some tips on
how to coach, like with the big pause, which makes
some people very very nervous, but it does work. So
lis what are some other practical tips you can undertake
to start your coaching journey?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I reckon we should talk about what coaching is and
what it isn't because it sounds like this all encompassing term,
Like you know, when someone says you be a big
picture thinker, are.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You like, what does that even mean? What does that
even look like?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
That?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
And we set it up.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Front as well, a lot of people misuse the phrase
and go be a coach, and they're just still telling
you what to do, Like that's not what it is.
So effectively, all coaching is is it's a structured, question
based conversation focus on helping someone unlock their potential and
it leads to some kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Action that seems doable.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It seems very doable, is it.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I think the myth is is that people see because
there are a lot of professional coaches out there, and
they go, oh, it's like this two hour journey exploration
thing that I have to do.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, it sounds like you have to be coached in
how to be a coach, and then you need like
the proper job description as coach.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yes, no, you don't have to do it at all. It
can be a five minute conversation with four questions. Okay,
that's it. At the heart of it, I mentioned before,
coaching is about questions, not answers. In the Coaching Habit,
that book I share with you and we'll link to
it in the show notes. Michael Bungeystania it's a real
tongue twist of that name. He talks about the power
of just like simple repeatable questions, so things like what's
(07:04):
on your mind, what's the real challenge for you here,
what's one step you could take. It's really about just
resisting the urge and the reflex that we all have
to go why don't you just do this?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
In I feel like when I always thought about coaching,
I would kind of put it in the same bucket
as mentorship, where it sounds very long term, yeah, where
it's like, oh, what do you want to do in
the next five years, But it feels like the questions
you're asking, that you're suggesting that we ask seems very
like short term, quick Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The kind of coaching that I would say that most
managers need to get into is almost like what they
call snap coaching or coaching in the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Where you go I love that. Yeah, it's like you
come up to me. It always starts this way.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So for any manager listening to this, they can go, Okay, oh,
I'm having problems with Sophie again, I'm picking on Socie.
I'm having this problem with Sophie. She just doesn't listen,
et cetera. Instead of me going, well, why is Sophie
not listening? I can start to say to you what's
happening right now, like kind of what's the situation, what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Like what do you want instead? What steps can you
take in that? And when we get that started.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I've just coached you, yeah, and I've not told you
what to do, So we've got to break this whole
thing of like telling people what to do and start
getting too Maybe IM could actually solve this with Sophie instead.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I also feel like with certain types of coaching, it
evolves the higher you climb the ladder.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I know when I was briefly a manager, and I
obviously still had my own manager, but their role switched
to become more of a coach, to like coach me
on how to manage. Yeah, So it was really interesting
because before they would basically coach me on the actual
tasks I was doing. And you obviously reach a level
where you start self learning and self developing. So then
(08:50):
your manager then takes on another role, which is like
tries to elevate you even more. And I feel like
it's one of those situations with coaching is that it'll
be something that the higher you go, or even if
you move across industries, that coaching will just continuously develop
and change depending on what your position is.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, and it's super situational, right, Like I remember when
I first got certified and trained and everything, I thought
everything was a coaching moment. It's not, okay, but it
is something you can use to kind of break the
reliance and read the play and go. Instead of telling
em what to do here, could I ask her a
question instead first and see how that goes?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay? I feel like we now need to get into
how to actually coach. Yeah, So if I am a
manager and I'm listening to this episode, firstly, welcome, check
out all other episodes. They're brilliant, and I want to
give coaching a go. What should I actually say in
the moment?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So you're not going to learn how to do a
full blown coaching conversation in this because I think I
said to you before this that would take about two
hours for us to teach you how to do it.
But what we can do is teach you how to
give like a coaching style question conversation before giving an
answer a direction. So your prompt is like someone's going
to come to you and be like I have a
problem with blah, your manager reflex and you're high performing,
(10:10):
I just got promoted. Reflex will be like I will
tell them the answer. Yeah, we'll fix this right now,
I'll fix it. And also you get like hero complex
a little bit like let's not lie. We all like
saving the day for someone that's hard to let go of.
But seeing someone actually develop and build their career because
you've asked the right questions and they've been able to
build their confidence is even better, I promise you on
the long term. So you don't need a script, but
(10:32):
it helps have a few questions. Pick up this book
The Coaching Habit, or hear a couple of my go
tos that can pull you out of different situations.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Get out of pen and paper. Write these down.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Definitely write these down. Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Some of my favorites are what's on your mind? So
it's really open. So if someone's coming to you and
going I'm having a problem with sometimes what they're telling
you is the surface level problem, then I'm actually telling
you the real problem.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Right, So when you.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Start with what's on your mind, you kind of open
it up and go, okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
You get them permission to go deeper.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, and I don't have an agenda here, I just
want to understand what's actually going on picture.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
The next one, the follow up one to that, would
be what's the real challenge for you here? Because again
that might be going like my problem is this, they
tell you everything that's going on around it, and then
they go, well, actually a challenge is X y Z,
which is different to the initial thing they came to
you with. So this one really cuts through the noise
and we'll get to you to the heart of the
problem they're trying to solve. Then we get into what else,
(11:27):
the most simple question two words, right, what else?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
What else?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It sounds so basic, but if you were like unloading
on me M and I just ask you those two questions, I'm.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like, what else?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, Like, well, actually it's this, this, this, and this
like okay, and then I'd probably say to you, which
one of those is the biggest challenge for you that
you want to solve?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Like, oh, not that initial one that I came to
you with.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
The other one, the what else question is such a
good strategy to keep someone talking as well. My grandfather
used to say this all the time when he would
be like, how was your week? I like good, And
they'd be like okay, and then pause, and then he'd
be like what else? And then I'll go and say
something else, and they'd be like what else, and I'll
say something else, and then it's just got on like
(12:13):
five paragraphs with the stories from me.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you're so right, Like it opens up like the
whole conversation right because everyone's in fast mode, and instead
of being in fast mode, be like what else is
going on? They go, oh, Okay, here's all the things I
really wanted to say. Yeah, good for networking and good
for those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Dude, cosations to your grand barrier?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
What else is going on from there?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Right? We don't want to sit in like exploration mode
that's not going to get anyone anywhere sessions. It's like
a total vent instead, So where we want to go
then is like, what's one step you could take to
solve it? Yeah? An action point? Yeah, I think I've
shared this with you before. My all time favorite coaching question.
When someone comes to me with a problem, I'm like, oh,
do you want some advice from me? They're like, yeah,
that's what I came for because like advice junkies are like, Okay,
(12:56):
what do you think i'd say, and they're like ah,
and they always go I knew you were gonna ask
me that.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm like, that's cool, but like, what do you think
I would say? And they're like, oh, well, you'd probably
say exposed. It is that an option? Like okay, the
best question ever?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And then I always people like coaching people on how
to coach themselves essentially.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, exactly. My next one is how can I support you?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Because by coaching as a manager, right, you're not sitting
there going, Okay, my job's done, ask you a question,
you go sort it out in Yeah, you're part of it. Yeah,
but they're getting to take some kind of like ownership
and accountability and decide where they need you involved to.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and you're saying I'm still here to help you.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, you're showing them support. And then you're also I
guess like self launching a check in down the track.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, that is such a good point. Right.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Sometimes you can go like, you know, when should we
circle back on this, so it's not like hey, like
we just had a lovely chat vent situation.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It's like it's like, expect to fix this and then
cycle back, yes.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And we will take some action, Yes, I think their
challenge is is like, look, I mean a few times
that that would have taken us about four or five minutes. Right, Yeah,
for a lot of managers who are in fast mode,
we'll feel slower at first. And you know, if you're
in hero complex, I must solve this. That's how I
prove my worth. Listen to another episode we did because
you're going to get out of that first, and then
you're going to get into coaching. You'll always want to
(14:12):
give some advice and you do have experience to share.
Just pick the moment when you give that advice and
have that discipline of holding back and the pause.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, read the room. I would say, like, sometimes you
can tell when someone comes to you with the problem
the exact type of advice they need. And sometimes it's
not necessarily a coaching moment. Sometimes if it's like a
massive problem, you need to fix it, Yes, you.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
One hundred percentero, So please, managers don't make a good life. Yeah, hey, yeah,
I'm not going to.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Solve any problems now, I'm going to ask questions. That's
not what we're saying. We're saying, read the room and go.
I could ask a question here, and you might ask
that first question and it goes totally sideways and you're like, okay, cool,
I'll give you some advice. Yeah, or you might just
ask a couple more questions and they go, actually, I've
got this great Exactly what happens over time then is
you've got this team that's more capable, more confident, and
they're less reliant on you in a good way because
(15:01):
they're coming to you with the like the house is
burning down, not like, oh, so's annoying me right now?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, sorry, So.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
It's time for our out, our wildest time useful thing, Lise,
what is that out this week?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I think what we've just touched on before is probably
the most relevant thing here is like, you don't need
to overhaul your whole style or become this like certified
coach that you see on LinkedIn. All you can do
is like just start small, stay curious, and start to
build this coaching habit. Read the book, ask a couple
of questions. So your reminder here is before you respond
with an answer or advice, then you're going to go,
(15:43):
what's actually happening for you right now?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
What do you want instead? How can I support you
with that?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Three questions easy and then where you go, we will
link to the books and the show notes some of
the easiest books to read and actually enjoyable books to read.
And there's also a couple of lessons and learner that
I'll link to as well, because they'll take you six
minutes and you can start going and having your coaching
conversation from there too, So good, all the material you need,
all the things, just go and have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
So I feel like a lot of coaching happens when
you're already in that manager role or you have experience
with being a manager. But I do see a lot
of people who just do coaching full time and that's
literally their job title and they're literally just like helping
people day to day coaching them. So I wanted to know,
is there an actual difference between being a coach in
(16:31):
that sense? Is there a difference between being a coach
versus being a mentor?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yes, So a mentor is someone who is experiencing the
role that you're in or a role you'd like to
be in, and they will directly tell you, hey, if
you want to go down this career path, here are
some steps you could take. Here, some people I could
introduce you to etc. A coach is more neutral than that.
They're about like unlocking your performance where you're at right
now for where you want to get to.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So it's like a step down, like a more like
short term step.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, I mean it can be long term too. The
coaching we're telling you to do is probably a bit
more short term. Yeah, And so the coach is a
bit more neutral situation because a mental usually go to
because you're like, I want that job and I think
you can help me and show me how to get there,
whereas a coach will look at any interference. I guess
that's happening with you, like achieving what you want to achieve. Right.
(17:19):
If you're telling someone, hey, here's what you need to do,
that's managing someone. If you're telling someone here's my experience
with that, you're probably mentoring them. And then if you're coaching,
you'd be saying, you know, what's the real challenge for
you here or what's one step you could take? Right?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Those would be the differences in those roles and how
you distinguish between those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Right, and Like coaching and mentoring, I feel like are
two completely different skill sets, and they are. I think
they can go hand in hand, and it's probably something
like as you say, like reading the books and stuff
that you can help develop both sides so you can
be like a different type of person for the person
you're either mentoring or coaching.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, you definitely can, that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
You just need to work out what kind of conversation
it is and what the person needs from you. And
if you don't know, ask, just ask yeah, so they
have it. Coaching isn't about being the person with all
the answers. It's about being the person who helps others
find their own answers. You don't need to overhaul your
entire management style overnight. What we want you to do
is just start small. Like so, try asking one coaching
(18:22):
question before jumping in with advice, Stay curious, and build
the coaching habit gradually. Don't just overnight start coaching people
for fun.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Just try not to. Try not to. If you're ready
to start coaching your team instead of managing every detail,
remember it starts with one simple question. Try it out
and see what happens, and also let us know what happens.
You can follow us on TikTok or Instagram, you can
slide into our DMS. We'll put links to that in
our show notes. Thank you so much for listening to
this episode of Beers. We will catch you next time.
(18:53):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to bid your Work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm m Vernon and I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm a former head of People in Culture, an organizational coach,
and the founder of Learner.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today we are talking about the number one skill every manager.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Needs, because being a manager isn't just about hitting targets.
It's about helping your team grow and getting them ready
for what's coming next. And the skill that I've seen
like a huge difference when people have it is coaching.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That's so interesting to me. I feel like this is
new news for me, but it does make sense because coaching,
it's like you're also building trust with your team. You're
not just managing them, but you're also setting them up
for the next level of their career. So I feel
like coaching is one of those skills that's very misunderstood
and there's like not that much research out there on there.
(01:02):
So we're going to try to sort you out.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
One hundreds of people misuse that phrase all the time,
so we're going to explain exactly what it is, how
to use it to help your team grow, and how
to make your job easier as well. Because who wouldn't
want that, so true, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So my big question is why is coaching specifically the
skill that managers need? Because I feel like we've talked
about management for a few episodes now and it feels
like there's a massive list of things that managers need,
but it seems like coaching is a number one.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I speak to so many managers, right, especially the ones
that have just been promoted, and they're almost tearing their
hair out because they're going, everything's coming at me and
everyone's coming at me. And what happens, and we've talked
about this before, is that often when you're higher forming
team member, you get promoted into a manager role, but
then you haven't been taught how to shift from getting
this work done to then getting the best from others
(01:57):
to get the work done. And the reason why I
then think it's the number one skill, right, is that
that's the unlock, that's what you can do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So it's also about just like helping others, I guess,
not just in like managing them from a company point
of view, but like also developing their career as a whole.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I think a lot of people have seeing like this
old school way of managing where your manager like just
delegate shits you and they hand out instructions and you
just do what they say all the time. But that's
not how to get the best out of the team
and also the best way to spend your time to
You've got to be able to help your team actually grow,
adapt from problem solve on the fly, not just create
this reliance on you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
All the time.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Coaching is the thing that will help you do that.
So this isn't just my take. I've got a couple
of books with you. I know you love when I
bring books.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm such a big reader. Was it the for Amendment?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The Four Agreements?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Like Biblical?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
These are super practical. Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I would almost say that if you're a manager of
people leader and you only read one book, even though
I've got two here, it would be this one. This
one's called you can see it's well read as well.
This one's called The Coaching Habit, and it gives you
a whole bunch of questions and things you can just
use in the every day to make work less hard.
Oh my god, I love the other one that's sitting
there is by Michael Bungaystania, by the way is the
(03:13):
advice trap, and it kind of builds on that in
terms of how we're all addicted to just giving advice
all the time, But maybe our advice is not right,
and maybe the other person actually has the answer right
and we can encourage them to build that thinking. So
we're not creating this team that just relies on us
to do anything.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So what career phase do you think someone should be
in when before they start thinking about coaching. Is that
something you think about the minute you become a manager,
or something you think about before, or like when you've
been in it for a while.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I would start thinking about it as I've become a manager,
because okay, as you step into it, right, your style
has to change a bit. Think of this as almost
like a tool you can use. You don't have to
be like me and do like a full blown certified coaching,
situation and training thing, but you can pick up a
few interesting questions along the way to start coaching and
asking questions rather than your first response being let me
(04:03):
just give the answer. M Yeah, that's where you're gonna
drown when you become a manager. And when I hear
the managers talk to me, they go, oh, I just
don't know if I'm cut out to be a manager
like everyone and everything's coming at me. I'm like, if
only you've had this skill, yeah, we can start to
change some things.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's so true. And I feel like, even if you're
not a manager, you can still be a good coach
to someone like you can still help develop their career
and still gain these like skill sets, because there will
be times in your life where if you're working with someone,
even like a peer, and you just want to help
them out, help their career, but also develop that own
(04:40):
skill set within yourself to know how to coach someone.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, I use it all the time with peers or
even on myself as well, because at the heart of it,
it's actually about pausing, yeah, listening and asking good questions.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And you know, I love a powerful pause.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
You do love a powerful pause where I'm like, ah
am I going to jump in sh silence.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
What should I do?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
There is something really magical and that we'll talk about
that coming up around pausing and asking questions and creating
space for people to just get it out the head.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh my god, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So before we.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Get into it, I want one things to be really
clear right, Okay, coaching doesn't mean you never ever give direction,
Like you don't just become a manager then and just
sit there and be like, I'm a coach, I don't
know what do you think?
Speaker 1 (05:18):
The whole time.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
We don't need to go from hardcore delegation micromanaging into
a space where you're like, I don't know what do
you think? That's not what we're talking about here. It's
about understanding, like what the skill is, and not using
delegation or instructions as your first move, but instead asking
a question as your first move and letting some of
the magic happen from there.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Right, So, earlier on we soft launch some tips on
how to coach, like with the big pause, which makes
some people very very nervous, but it does work. So
lis what are some other practical tips you can undertake
to start your coaching journey?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
I reckon we should talk about what coaching is and
what it isn't because it sounds like this all encompassing term,
Like you know, when someone says you be a big
picture thinker, are.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
You like, what does that even mean? What does that
even look like?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
That?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
And we set it up.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Front as well, a lot of people misuse the phrase
and go be a coach, and they're just still telling
you what to do, Like that's not what it is.
So effectively, all coaching is is it's a structured, question
based conversation focus on helping someone unlock their potential and
it leads to some kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Action that seems doable.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It seems very doable, is it.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I think the myth is is that people see because
there are a lot of professional coaches out there, and
they go, oh, it's like this two hour journey exploration
thing that I have to do.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, it sounds like you have to be coached in
how to be a coach, and then you need like
the proper job description as coach.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yes, no, you don't have to do it at all. It
can be a five minute conversation with four questions. Okay,
that's it. At the heart of it, I mentioned before,
coaching is about questions, not answers. In the Coaching Habit,
that book I share with you and we'll link to
it in the show notes. Michael Bungeystania it's a real
tongue twist of that name. He talks about the power
of just like simple repeatable questions, so things like what's
(07:04):
on your mind, what's the real challenge for you here,
what's one step you could take. It's really about just
resisting the urge and the reflex that we all have
to go why don't you just do this?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
In I feel like when I always thought about coaching,
I would kind of put it in the same bucket
as mentorship, where it sounds very long term, yeah, where
it's like, oh, what do you want to do in
the next five years, But it feels like the questions
you're asking, that you're suggesting that we ask seems very
like short term, quick Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
The kind of coaching that I would say that most
managers need to get into is almost like what they
call snap coaching or coaching in the moment.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Where you go I love that. Yeah, it's like you
come up to me. It always starts this way.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
So for any manager listening to this, they can go, Okay, oh,
I'm having problems with Sophie again, I'm picking on Socie.
I'm having this problem with Sophie. She just doesn't listen,
et cetera. Instead of me going, well, why is Sophie
not listening? I can start to say to you what's
happening right now, like kind of what's the situation, what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Like what do you want instead? What steps can you
take in that? And when we get that started.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I've just coached you, yeah, and I've not told you
what to do, So we've got to break this whole
thing of like telling people what to do and start
getting too Maybe IM could actually solve this with Sophie instead.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I also feel like with certain types of coaching, it
evolves the higher you climb the ladder.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I know when I was briefly a manager, and I
obviously still had my own manager, but their role switched
to become more of a coach, to like coach me
on how to manage. Yeah, So it was really interesting
because before they would basically coach me on the actual
tasks I was doing. And you obviously reach a level
where you start self learning and self developing. So then
(08:50):
your manager then takes on another role, which is like
tries to elevate you even more. And I feel like
it's one of those situations with coaching is that it'll
be something that the higher you go, or even if
you move across industries, that coaching will just continuously develop
and change depending on what your position is.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, and it's super situational, right, Like I remember when
I first got certified and trained and everything, I thought
everything was a coaching moment. It's not, okay, but it
is something you can use to kind of break the
reliance and read the play and go. Instead of telling
em what to do here, could I ask her a
question instead first and see how that goes?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay? I feel like we now need to get into
how to actually coach. Yeah, So if I am a
manager and I'm listening to this episode, firstly, welcome, check
out all other episodes. They're brilliant, and I want to
give coaching a go. What should I actually say in
the moment?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
So you're not going to learn how to do a
full blown coaching conversation in this because I think I
said to you before this that would take about two
hours for us to teach you how to do it.
But what we can do is teach you how to
give like a coaching style question conversation before giving an
answer a direction. So your prompt is like someone's going
to come to you and be like I have a
problem with blah, your manager reflex and you're high performing,
(10:10):
I just got promoted. Reflex will be like I will
tell them the answer. Yeah, we'll fix this right now,
I'll fix it. And also you get like hero complex
a little bit like let's not lie. We all like
saving the day for someone that's hard to let go of.
But seeing someone actually develop and build their career because
you've asked the right questions and they've been able to
build their confidence is even better, I promise you on
the long term. So you don't need a script, but
(10:32):
it helps have a few questions. Pick up this book
The Coaching Habit, or hear a couple of my go
tos that can pull you out of different situations.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Get out of pen and paper. Write these down.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Definitely write these down. Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Some of my favorites are what's on your mind? So
it's really open. So if someone's coming to you and
going I'm having a problem with sometimes what they're telling
you is the surface level problem, then I'm actually telling
you the real problem.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Right, So when you.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Start with what's on your mind, you kind of open
it up and go, okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
You get them permission to go deeper.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, and I don't have an agenda here, I just
want to understand what's actually going on picture.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
The next one, the follow up one to that, would
be what's the real challenge for you here? Because again
that might be going like my problem is this, they
tell you everything that's going on around it, and then
they go, well, actually a challenge is X y Z,
which is different to the initial thing they came to
you with. So this one really cuts through the noise
and we'll get to you to the heart of the
problem they're trying to solve. Then we get into what else,
(11:27):
the most simple question two words, right, what else?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
What else?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It sounds so basic, but if you were like unloading
on me M and I just ask you those two questions, I'm.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like, what else?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, Like, well, actually it's this, this, this, and this
like okay, and then I'd probably say to you, which
one of those is the biggest challenge for you that
you want to solve?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Like, oh, not that initial one that I came to
you with.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
The other one, the what else question is such a
good strategy to keep someone talking as well. My grandfather
used to say this all the time when he would
be like, how was your week? I like good, And
they'd be like okay, and then pause, and then he'd
be like what else? And then I'll go and say
something else, and they'd be like what else, and I'll
say something else, and then it's just got on like
(12:13):
five paragraphs with the stories from me.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you're so right, Like it opens up like the
whole conversation right because everyone's in fast mode, and instead
of being in fast mode, be like what else is
going on? They go, oh, Okay, here's all the things I
really wanted to say. Yeah, good for networking and good
for those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Dude, cosations to your grand barrier?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
What else is going on from there?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Right? We don't want to sit in like exploration mode
that's not going to get anyone anywhere sessions. It's like
a total vent instead, So where we want to go
then is like, what's one step you could take to
solve it? Yeah? An action point? Yeah, I think I've
shared this with you before. My all time favorite coaching question.
When someone comes to me with a problem, I'm like, oh,
do you want some advice from me? They're like, yeah,
that's what I came for because like advice junkies are like, Okay,
(12:56):
what do you think i'd say, and they're like ah,
and they always go I knew you were gonna ask
me that.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm like, that's cool, but like, what do you think
I would say? And they're like, oh, well, you'd probably
say exposed. It is that an option? Like okay, the
best question ever?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And then I always people like coaching people on how
to coach themselves essentially.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, exactly. My next one is how can I support you?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Because by coaching as a manager, right, you're not sitting
there going, Okay, my job's done, ask you a question,
you go sort it out in Yeah, you're part of it. Yeah,
but they're getting to take some kind of like ownership
and accountability and decide where they need you involved to.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, and you're saying I'm still here to help you.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, you're showing them support. And then you're also I
guess like self launching a check in down the track.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes, that is such a good point. Right.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Sometimes you can go like, you know, when should we
circle back on this, so it's not like hey, like
we just had a lovely chat vent situation.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It's like it's like, expect to fix this and then
cycle back, yes.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And we will take some action, Yes, I think their
challenge is is like, look, I mean a few times
that that would have taken us about four or five minutes. Right, Yeah,
for a lot of managers who are in fast mode,
we'll feel slower at first. And you know, if you're
in hero complex, I must solve this. That's how I
prove my worth. Listen to another episode we did because
you're going to get out of that first, and then
you're going to get into coaching. You'll always want to
(14:12):
give some advice and you do have experience to share.
Just pick the moment when you give that advice and
have that discipline of holding back and the pause.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, read the room. I would say, like, sometimes you
can tell when someone comes to you with the problem
the exact type of advice they need. And sometimes it's
not necessarily a coaching moment. Sometimes if it's like a
massive problem, you need to fix it, Yes, you.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
One hundred percentero, So please, managers don't make a good life. Yeah, hey, yeah,
I'm not going to.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Solve any problems now, I'm going to ask questions. That's
not what we're saying. We're saying, read the room and go.
I could ask a question here, and you might ask
that first question and it goes totally sideways and you're like, okay, cool,
I'll give you some advice. Yeah, or you might just
ask a couple more questions and they go, actually, I've
got this great Exactly what happens over time then is
you've got this team that's more capable, more confident, and
they're less reliant on you in a good way because
(15:01):
they're coming to you with the like the house is
burning down, not like, oh, so's annoying me right now?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yes, sorry, So.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
It's time for our out, our wildest time useful thing, Lise,
what is that out this week?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I think what we've just touched on before is probably
the most relevant thing here is like, you don't need
to overhaul your whole style or become this like certified
coach that you see on LinkedIn. All you can do
is like just start small, stay curious, and start to
build this coaching habit. Read the book, ask a couple
of questions. So your reminder here is before you respond
with an answer or advice, then you're going to go,
(15:43):
what's actually happening for you right now?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
What do you want instead? How can I support you
with that?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Three questions easy and then where you go, we will
link to the books and the show notes some of
the easiest books to read and actually enjoyable books to read.
And there's also a couple of lessons and learner that
I'll link to as well, because they'll take you six
minutes and you can start going and having your coaching
conversation from there too, So good, all the material you need,
all the things, just go and have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
So I feel like a lot of coaching happens when
you're already in that manager role or you have experience
with being a manager. But I do see a lot
of people who just do coaching full time and that's
literally their job title and they're literally just like helping
people day to day coaching them. So I wanted to know,
is there an actual difference between being a coach in
(16:31):
that sense? Is there a difference between being a coach
versus being a mentor?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yes, So a mentor is someone who is experiencing the
role that you're in or a role you'd like to
be in, and they will directly tell you, hey, if
you want to go down this career path, here are
some steps you could take. Here, some people I could
introduce you to etc. A coach is more neutral than that.
They're about like unlocking your performance where you're at right
now for where you want to get to.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So it's like a step down, like a more like
short term step.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, I mean it can be long term too. The
coaching we're telling you to do is probably a bit
more short term. Yeah, And so the coach is a
bit more neutral situation because a mental usually go to
because you're like, I want that job and I think
you can help me and show me how to get there,
whereas a coach will look at any interference. I guess
that's happening with you, like achieving what you want to achieve. Right.
(17:19):
If you're telling someone, hey, here's what you need to do,
that's managing someone. If you're telling someone here's my experience
with that, you're probably mentoring them. And then if you're coaching,
you'd be saying, you know, what's the real challenge for
you here or what's one step you could take? Right?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Those would be the differences in those roles and how
you distinguish between those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Right, and Like coaching and mentoring, I feel like are
two completely different skill sets, and they are. I think
they can go hand in hand, and it's probably something
like as you say, like reading the books and stuff
that you can help develop both sides so you can
be like a different type of person for the person
you're either mentoring or coaching.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, you definitely can, that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
You just need to work out what kind of conversation
it is and what the person needs from you. And
if you don't know, ask, just ask yeah, so they
have it. Coaching isn't about being the person with all
the answers. It's about being the person who helps others
find their own answers. You don't need to overhaul your
entire management style overnight. What we want you to do
is just start small. Like so, try asking one coaching
(18:22):
question before jumping in with advice, Stay curious, and build
the coaching habit gradually. Don't just overnight start coaching people
for fun.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Just try not to. Try not to. If you're ready
to start coaching your team instead of managing every detail,
remember it starts with one simple question. Try it out
and see what happens, and also let us know what happens.
You can follow us on TikTok or Instagram, you can
slide into our DMS. We'll put links to that in
our show notes. Thank you so much for listening to
this episode of Beers. We will catch you next time.
(18:53):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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