October 29, 2025 • 28 mins
There's one moment that can completely transform your career trajectory, the job interview. Yet most of us approach it with outdated advice, generic answers, and crossed fingers. We rock up thinking we can wing it, hoping they won't ask about our biggest weakness and secretly panicking about whether we've done enough research. Meanwhile, there's always that one candidate who seems to have it all figured out, asking thoughtful questions and making genuine connections. What's their secret?
The truth is, interviewing is a skill that can be mastered. And when you get it right, it opens doors you never thought possible.
This week on BIZ, we're breaking down how to turn interview anxiety into interview advantage. Whether you're re-entering the workforce, changing careers, or climbing the ladder, this is your roadmap to interview success.
Here's what we're covering:
• The strategic research that sets you apart before you even walk through the door
• Four powerful questions that demonstrate you're serious about the role
• The simple preparation technique that calms your nerves and keeps you focused
• How to transform rejection into your next opportunity
• Eli Gunduz's proven "Pitch–Proof–Ping–Personalise" method that recruiters can't ignore
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
Resources Mentioned:
• Eli Gunduz's "Pitch–Proof–Ping–Personalise" method
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Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to A'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
M Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
perfectly timed as you start to think about maybe applying
for a new job before the end of year. Lisa
and I break down why most of us approach interviews
completely wrong. We rock up hoping to wing it instead
(00:31):
of treating it like the learnable skill it actually is.
So whether you're just browsing job ads or seriously considering
a move, getting your interviewing skills sorted out now will
help set you up for success. If you've been putting
off applying for roles because interviews terrify you like I
mean same, this episode will completely shift your approach. It
is time to get prepared. Hello and welcome to beiers
(00:56):
Your work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I'm Mverner and I'm Luisa Lie. I'm a former head
of People in Culture and organizational coach and the founder
of Learner microp that helps you learn the people skills
to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
She does it all.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I've also interviewed a lot of people you have over
that time, and we're talking about that one moment today
that can completely transform your career, which is the job interview.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Every time someone says the word interview to me in
relation to job, I freak out. Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Like even when I'm not even in the position of
interviewing someone or having a job interview, I think on
both ends, I'm always like, oh my god, this is
really scary.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, it's like a being on stage moment.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, it literally is like a performance.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
But what if I told you if interviewing is actually
a skill that can be mastered and when you get
it right, it really opens doors and it can actually
be enjoyable too.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah. Okay, That's why I'm really really excited about this episode,
because we're talking about the whole spectrum of interviewing. If
you're interviewing for another job, if you're going for a promotion,
even if you're interviewing within the company, we're going to
cover it, or we're going to give you a roadmap
to interviewing skills.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes we are, and we're going to talk about the
research that actually sets you apart from other candidates and
the questions you should be asking but show you're serious.
So you're not just answering, you are asking to Okay,
and we will turn interview anxiety into a bit of
a secret weapon.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I think it's more like you're going to be turning
my anxiety into a sacred weapon, because I have anxiety
right now about this. So if you're ready to start
winging it and start winning it, you're in the right place.
Let's get into it. So we actually chatted to some
people about their job interview tips and hacks, and this
(02:35):
is what they said. My mum always told me to
bring a bottle of water, and that's not just for nerves,
but it gives you a moment to think before you
answer tough questions.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
My go to hack is always bringing a notepad and
actually taking notes during the interview. It shows you're engaged
and gives you something to do with your hands when
you're nervous. I always researched the interviewer on LinkedIn beforehand,
not in a creepy way, but just so I can
find some common ground or mention something relevant they've posted about.
Those are some good hacks, So let's get into ours now.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So, when you've been on the hiring side, which I
have I've interviewed a lot of people. You can spoil
the difference between someone who's read the about us page
and the person that's actually done the prep and wanted
to get to know you and get to know the role,
and that deeper prep actually makes you really memorable.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Interesting. I feel like when I've interviewed people, that's not
something that I could easily pick up on. So how
do you actually pick up on that.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
There's a few different things that can tell what they're doing.
So they're not asking about facts, they're talking about more context.
So they might say things like I saw you're expanding
into APAC this year. You know, here's my experience across
that region, etc. So they've gone and done the deeper
work and they'll ask questions or they'll link their experience
back to that in really interesting ways.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Interesting. One thing that I've done is like I've given
people a bit of a stalk. M stalking is good,
a little not like a physically. I don't follow them
to work, obviously, but I give them a bit of
like LinkedIn stalk, Instagram stalk see what people are doing.
We actually had one of my colleagues here Mum and
mea who doesn't work here anymore, but she used to
work in the social media team. Her name is Mattie King,
(04:12):
and she immediately grabbed our attention because she made a
full Instagram account dedicated to Mamma Mia and why we
should hire her for the social media team.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
And every post she did was like a different reason
why and we were just like amazed. We were like,
get her in straight away.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
That is so impressive, and she got the job at
the job. Wow. I think like stalking people is really
great prep, right, and who cares if they see you
doing it? Like that's a good thing. Oh my gosh.
You know what, you want to look at their career path.
You know, have they built teams before, have they changed industries?
It tells you what they might value and also how
they might manage you as well, because you can see
(04:49):
hoo they've worked with.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And I think also just it helps you talk about
things that aren't necessarily just about the job. If you
see them like post something on LinkedIn or like like
something on LinkedIn, and you can be like, oh, I
also read this post on this knowing that they've also.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Read it well, and this sounds a little bit extra
in terms of the stalking. But you can also pick
up the language. So you can look at the language
they use in like comms, whether it's the job AD
or how they post this is next level and go okay,
so they say customers, they don't say clients, or they
say experiments, they don't say projects, and then you can
sprinkle that language into the interview and go immediately they're going, oh,
(05:25):
this feels like someone that would work here or could
work here. They speak our language.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I feel like that's also a psychology hack, Like I
feel like when you meet someone who kind of like
speaks like you and vibes with you, you automatically like them.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Will Yeah, I mean an is view is a connection point, right.
People need to be able to connect with you and
go I don't have to like you, but I do
have to be able to work with you, and can
I see that happening too. The other tip I'd say
is like you want to kind of decode the job
ad and see what's in there. So if you see
things like fast paced environment or you know, self starta
repeated so usually a signal the team might be underresourced
(05:57):
or they're growing really quickly. So you want to be
ready with examples of how you can work in that
ambiguity or questions around what that actually looks like.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, that's so smart. I feel like also with the
way that the job market is now, I think so
many people are trying to find a job and they're
interviewing and not getting it, and interviewing and not getting it,
and I think it's so easy to forget that also
you're interviewing the company, yes, yeah, and it's so easy
to miss those beige or red flags in those initial
(06:27):
job offers because you just so desperately need and want
a job. And I think that is a really good
reminder to also know that, like you're an asset to
that company. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I mean the worst thing you do is then just
take the job, yeah, having not asked those questions, and
then go, I don't want to be here. This is
not what I want it at all. So you're right,
it's your interview as well as their interview.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So doing this kind of prep like it does feel
like I guess extra work for doing an interview that
you aren't really sure you're going to get in the end,
But it is so so important because I think that
is what will help you stand out initially before you
even get into the interviewing room.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, And like you said, it's competitive, so you need
to be able to stand out and you want to
do that work to figure out if it's right for you.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So when I did my very first interview here at
Mum and MEA, I was very much like, Okay, they're
going to ask me a bunch of questions and I'm
just going to answer them. And I thought it was
going to be like question answer, question answer, And then
I got in here and it was just so much
more casual than what I was expecting, in like a
good way, where they were still asking me about myself
(07:28):
and my experience, and I had prepped answers as well,
but I didn't realize it was actually more of a
conversation rather than just me just waiting there in silence
for the next question.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And you're lucky you walked into that kind of experience
in that environment, right. There are a lot of interviews
that are very formal and structured and go through a
million rounds of.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Whether it's like a panel of people interviewing it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There's a panel, but if you can bring it more
into a conversation space, I think you're going to make
yourself a lot more comfortable too, So you've done all
that prep work. I think the best you know, interviews
have these candidates asking questions so that then the interviewe
thinks okay, they really get it, like let's go over here,
and they actually end up going deeper in the conversation. Yeah,
(08:09):
I have four questions that I've either used or that
come to mind for me. These are some of the
best questions I've seen people use or I've actually used
them myself and worked out, you know, whether the role
was right. So I want to share those with you today.
I am so question one that you can ask. You
can pause this and write this down if I joined tomorrow,
what's the first problem or project you'd want me to tackle?
So this makes them picture you doing the work, and
(08:32):
it shows you're ready to deliver this value immediately. And
then you get a really good sense of like what
is the actual work I'll be doing, not what the
job ads is?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That is so smart.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So often these job ads can be glorified titles.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And they want to convince you for the interview.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yes, and they're a bit mysterious, But by asking this
you can actually work out what your day to day
looks like and whether you actually want that.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's such a good questional question.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Something else someone asked me, which I thought was an
absolute doozy, was if you were looking back six months
from now, what would have happened for you to feel
like hiring me was the right call. So when I
was asked that question as the interviewee, I was like, okay, like,
what kind of outcomes do I really want the role
to drive? What would success look like in that role?
I had to really clearly define that for them, which
(09:17):
was great, right because we ended up hiring them and
they knew from day one what was going to happen
over the next six months.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So that was a good one. Yeah, this is one
I've asked. Okay, what have people in this role done
really well in the past and where have they struggled?
Oh that's a good one, especially if you've seen a
business higher for this kind of role, I guess consistently
or yeah, you're like, what's going on here? And is
this the right fit? Because do you know what, sometimes
there is just natural turnover, but also sometimes there are
(09:44):
roles that just aren't quite right too.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, so surely they would be like, business is seeing
the same role not work out for candidate after candidate,
and surely that's a reevaluation of the actual role.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yes, and also the business and how it's operating whether
that role is needed. Yes, yeah, that all happens. I
think it shows your willingness to learn from past patterns,
but it also prompts them around it and show some
really big picture thinking too.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
They're like, actually, we don't need this.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Actually we don't need this role. That happened to me
in an interview. I guess I was asking these kind
of questions and I asked this question. It was a
brand new role they're putting in, like this talent culture
director of across a massive business. It was a new role.
The interviewer asked me what I thought it was, or
what I thought would be, like, I mean, I can
tell you, but what's your vision for the role? And
then I got into a second in to you And
(10:32):
then after that they decided they didn't even want the
role at all, so they didn't hire anyone, thank god.
So I mean, better that I find out then than go, oh,
six months in, I'm not passing probation because you actually
don't even need the role.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Oh my god. I love how they were like, what
a good question. What do you think Christian do?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I was like red flags. He's like, I don't know,
baby to your company, Yeah, that's totally your complete real
red flag that you don't know what I should be
achieving or what you want the role to achieve. So
that is a great question. Please ask that because it
helps get you on the same page as them too.
And I think when you ask questions like these, you
know you're not just feeling the time at the end
of the interview, You're showing them how you think, how
(11:11):
you work, and really already picturing yourself in the role
too and what they would look like. So that'll help
make conversational and take it out of like firing squad.
They're just pumping me with questions into what can I
ask here and how can I get to understand it?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I love that question. Okay, I have a confession to make.
Tell me when it comes to questions, because I think
these questions are so so good and just to pull
it all the way back. As someone who's never interviewed
before I got my role at Mama Mia, I didn't
actually know as an interview weed that you can ask
questions back. I always thought it was like on me,
(11:48):
like I have to be the best version of myself
forgetting that. Also, I'm also going to be helping the
company if I do get this role. And I remember
I did my interview at Mama Maya and they were like,
do you have any questions for us? And I was like, no, oh,
I know. And then I went home and my mom
was like, did they ask you if you had any
questions for them? And I was like, yeah, they asked,
and She's like, what do you say? And I was like, oh,
I said nothing because I didn't have any.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
And she was like no, no, I'm cringing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
The blood run from her face and she was like, Emily,
you always.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Ask ask anything. Why I didn't have anything? The divorces
that you fumble and then you go, oh, well, you know,
and you ask a really random question altogether, But every.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Policy, can I take?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Can you leave after I start?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Can I away from home all days?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So you have to know that everyone's going to ask
that question at the end. It's just like a natural
close to the conversation, right, did you have any questions
for us? So think of something.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I think any one of these that you've just mentioned,
like just haven't memorized have it on retailer, Like these
are the great great questions and also questions I feel
like they won't really expect, Like I feel like interviewers
sometimes think that that last question is more just going
to be like very like what's the dress code blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, and then when you actually have.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
To all so forced them to think. I think that's
going to stick into their mind for like all the
other interviews they do next.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah. I mean I've interviewed people who actually had a
book and they opened it up and they had it
written down. I was like, oh my gosh, amazing, Like
look at the prep you've done. I don't care that
if you're like down, I loved it. Okay, good, They've
thought about it, they've written it down. I've said, I've
wrote down some questions I'd like to ask. I've also
interviewed people who are like completely distracted, like worst interview ever.
I'm like, would you like to be here still in
(13:31):
this interview? And so I've seen the full spectrum, please
just con't prepared and like cast something.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Not the annual leaf thing but not the annualing.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So we've covered the right questions to ask, but next
up we are going to be talking about how to
actually manage those pre interview nerves so you can actually
deliver all that preparation and show up as the best
self you want to be.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So, something I want you to know is that pretty
much everyone gets nervous in interviews. Like I've seen senior
leaders with decades of experience to it, I've interviewed at
that level. I've also interviewed someone with their first time role,
same nerves, right, I think the trick is not to
pretend that you're not nervous, but know how to work
with it so you can still really think clearly and connects.
And we were just talking about this before around like
(14:20):
confidence and preparation as well. The nervous energy isn't the enemy,
but it's the unfocused nervous energy that is. So you
really need to channel it, whether it's writing those questions
down or it is doing a bit of prep and
going through it with the friends, like channel the nervous
energy into something. Yeah, there's this idea from coaching that
I really like. It's from a book called The Inner
(14:41):
Game by Timothy Gallaway, and it has this formula where
it says your performance equals your potential minus interference.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Your performance equals your potential potential minus interference.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So how you perform on the day is your potential,
like right, but you have to get rid of all
the interference. And the interference is all the stuff messing
with your head, all the nervous energy. I can't do this.
I didn't have a question, the self doubt, all the
self doubt and everything. For me, that's the perfect way
to think about confidence coming into the room. You've already
got the skills and experience, like, that's your potential.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
The only thing that can get in the way is
the self doubt, you say, the overthinking as well. You know,
you go, I didn't have a question. I'm gonna start spiraling.
They think I'm dumb, they think I can't do the role,
and then you completely lose your train of thought and
you're off track. Right, So before you go in the room,
if you can strip some of that back, more of
your potential comes through.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Does that make sense, Yeah, it does make sense.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So how you perform on the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Day, like you said, you will always always get nervous
with these interviews. And there are some things that you
can't control, like some people can't control shaking. Some people
can't control like a wobbly voice. So the things you
can control, like the self doubt and stuff like handle that.
Put that away, yes, and then the other things won't
seem as big.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
One of the tricks I use, like self talk is
really big, right, Yeah, we all do it. Oh, I'm
so dumb. I didn't answer that question properly. I'm not
going to get it, etc. It's unbelievable. The powersh flip
it instead of going so nervous, I'm so nervous. I'm
so nervous, and you talk yourself into being nervous, you
start going, I'm really excited about this.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And if you just repeat that to yourself a couple
of times, you'll start to believe it because the stories
we tell ourselves that's so true. Do that before you
walk in the room. Have you tried anything else? Like
before you walk in the room.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I have actually tried a few things. Years ago, I
interviewed these two young women who have a podcast together
called Interview Boss. Yeah, and their whole thing is teaching
other young women on how to nail job interviews great,
and some of the tips they gave me has worked
so so well, not even in the interview process, but
just they feel like the nervous speaker in general, or
nervous about talking about yourself or any type of interview.
(16:44):
One of the things they said is always accept the
glass of water. Ah, when they offer you a glass
of water. There's something psychological about when you offer someone
a glass of water and they accept it, and you
go get them a glass of water. For some reason,
we like that person a bit more.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Ah. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, when you say no to a glass of water,
it's the first thing you're saying to that person is
like a rich yeah, And there's some chemical in our
brain which goes, oh, didn't like that. Even though you're
actually making them do more work by getting the glass
of water, they actually like you a bit better by
doing that.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm thinking about all the times I've interviewed people and
they've said yes or no, and when they do say no,
it feels really awkward, like, oh, okay, we should we
sit down now. Yeah. So if you've invited them into
your house and like, no, I don't want to drink.
I'm just here to talk. Yeah, Okay, all right, sure.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's so small, but it's like so significant. Another thing
is like, now you have your glass of water, right, Yes,
A lot of people get nervous when they're in an interview,
and the way that they get nervous is that they
shake a lot. If you pick up your glass of
water take a sip, your hand might be a bit shaky.
And I think when it comes to nerves, nerves that
are like where everyone can see are the most annoying
type of nerves. Like it's so different when it's like
(17:49):
inside and no one else can tell, but when people
can see it and manifest so physically. Clench your butt cheeks.
What clenching your butt cheeks while picking up a glass
of water will stop you from shaking?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I wish I was shaking so I could try.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It now I know we's just to comfortable with each other.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Oh my gosh. I think the water is a good
way to pause as well. Yeah, so just like put
a pause in there. Rather than brushing into your answers,
you can actually go, okay, what if they actually ask here,
I'll have a drink. Pause.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Think about it while you're said I Because.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
People are so uncomfortable with silence. But it's okay if
you drink a glass of water and then you go
and ask a clarifying question if you need thinking time,
and then just go, okay, I'm here to have a conversation.
How would this be a conversational answer? Yeah, off, we go,
got my water, I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, that's a suit.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What about if your brain blanks in the interview.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
M I had so many people right into me saying
what happens if your brain banks? It's really hard. I'm
a big rambler. There's been so many times, and I
think it's so different depending on the situation you're in.
Sometimes you have to fill space if you're like doing
like a silo presentation, and I just like ramble and
ramble in an interview, I think you can give yourself
(18:56):
more grace because the interviewer knows that you're nervous. You
know that you're nervous. Don't be afraid of the silence.
I've had this once when my brain completely blanked. And
this is where you can show off and look prepared.
If you have like a notebook with notes, I would
literally say, oh, that's such a good question. Do you
mind if I just check my notes on that. Yes, yeah,
buy yourself some time, Buy yourself some time.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I've had my brain blank, not an interview, but in
a presentation, and it's the most awful feeling. Yeah, there's
nothing quite like it. It's almost like out of body.
You're like, oh my gosh, do I have any thoughts?
What's happening here? But if you've done the prep beforehand,
you can go back and share something else so you
can connect it back into another story. So this great
journalist once told me that you don't have to actually
answer the question. So does celebrity. Yeah, so they can
(19:45):
ask you any question and you can like talk about
a story or an experience that may not necessarily answer that,
but it'll buy you some time to talk about something
you've already pre prepared. Right. Yeah, that's so that's quite helpful.
Just go with that instead. I really like the watersip
because I've been seeing these things on social media about
the coffee cup test.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, dot dot dot Okay, the coffee cup test. It
when completely viral on TikTok, and it's this idea that
when you go into a company and you sit down
for the interview, the interview is also happening in the
waiting room, and it's also happening after you leave the interview.
And apparently some companies are doing this kind of test
(20:23):
where if you sit down and they've asked, do you
want a glass of water or do you want a coffee?
Or can I get you anything? And you say yes.
After the interview, you finish your water, you finish your coffee,
what do you do with the cup? Do you take
it with you and put it in the kitchen, the
office kitchen, or do you just leave it there? And
apparently like some companies or some interviewers are using that
as like a gauge of what kind of person they're interviewing,
(20:47):
like someone who's like careless and leaves a cup for
someone else to clean up, or someone who's aware of
it and gets it away.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's be honest, we all hate those people in a
meeting room that do that. We don't maybe they don't
want more of those people.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I feel like if I'm in an interview and someone's
offered me a cup of water, I might be like,
what do you want me to do with this? But
I also think I might be the person who would
just leave it there and not really think about it. Yes,
which is so different to if I'm in a meeting,
if I'm with friends and stuff. Of course I'm going
to take my cup because I know where the kitchen
is and I know to put in a dishwasher. Do
(21:19):
you want me to walk through your whole office to
find the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I know that would be really awkward with me. I
think this is a strange thing that just went viral,
and it's probably taken out of context a bit. It
probably is a dard point. Like I remember interviewing people
and they would have come through someone else to get
to the interview room, and that person would be like, Oh,
they were really friendly, or ooh, they didn't really say much,
did they. It's a first impressions thing, and you want
(21:42):
to make a good first impression, whether or not they're
judging you on the actual coffee cup water glass situation.
I don't think it's the whole answer, So please don't
think you missed the job because of the coffee cup.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, but I mean, I guess it's good to know
if people are.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It is, and you want to build rapport and you
want to build some kind of connection, so maybe just.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Ask Yeah, but I exactly what you said I would
say that when you go for an interview, I pretend
that the interview has started the minute I stepped foot
into the Oh yeah, whoever you interact with, obviously you're
going to be normal because you're a normal person. You're
not going to be crazy person. And then suddenly just
change face when you're into that room. But just be
aware of you don't know who you're talking to. You
(22:18):
don't know who's like greeting you.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Obviously, treat every single person with respect as you should in.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Your day today, because you're a nice person.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
If you're a nice person.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I think you know, as an interviewer, you need to
also think about having respect for the person as much
as they're showing respect for you taking the time to
interview them as well. Yeah, so please don't stack them
back to back either. Don't like they're in a revolving door.
It's really weird, so weird.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Okay, we're getting close to the end of our interview episode,
but we have my favorite segment out our one useful thing, Lise,
what is our one useful thing today?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So I'm gonna give you someone to follow because I
follow him on LinkedIn. I'm not actually interviewing at the moment.
But I see this content, I'm like, God, that'll be
so helped full for someone who is interviewing right now.
His name is Eli Gounduz, and if you're in that interviews,
I know you're prepping to be. He's a technical recruiter
at Lassian, but he's also a career coach and he
posts the most practical helpful advice, like literal copy and
(23:20):
paste stuff that you can do amazing. I think one
of the hardest parts of the interview is actually getting
in the room. And I hear that from so many
people right now. They're going, I can't get the interview,
let alone, you know, be able to prep for it.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's so hard right now.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
It is really hard. So he has got this method
called pitch proof ping personalized. So I'll give you the
play that he has, OK, and I'm going to link
to it in the show notes too because it's brilliant.
So first one is pitch. So you want to open
with three lines max, who you are, what you bring
while you're reaching out. Then you're going to use some proof.
So whether that's like a bit of a case study
or an example of something you've done not a one pager,
(23:56):
but you know, some kind of little summary in there
of something that's relevant to that role. Yeah, so that's
your proof. Then you get a ping them a few
days later, like four or five days later. Don't stop
after one message, don't just go so well, I asked
them about the role and no one responded, So follow up.
Everyone's busy. Yeah, And then the last step is personalized.
So he will say, you know, mention a product, or
(24:16):
they're expanding into apac or some kind of thing like that,
which is something you admire about the business, or a
problem they're solving, something they've posted about recently. To connect
it back to why you're interested in the job and
why you're interested in the role. And he says it's
a really successful way to actually cut through because these
people who are interviewing are getting so many applications, so
(24:36):
pitch proofing and personalize them to actually get the interview
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's so good, that's so handy and so easy to remember.
I also want to talk about how you've done your interview.
You've done all of the little tips and tricks we've
given you, and you haven't heard from them in a while.
I know that it's always useful to follow up. But
I think what people struggle with is the time frame
on when to follow up.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Do you wait a week?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Do you wait a few days? You don't want to
seem too keen, but you also I want to miss
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, so two things on this. I think that interviewing
is a little bit like dating, right in a good way. Yeah. Actually,
maybe you can tell me a little bit more about this.
Like dating right now, I can tell you that, So
do not take the approach of treat them mean, keep
them keen. That will not work. Like you want to
follow up and show that you're interested.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
They really don't care.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, and you want to show that you're interested and
keep in touch with them as well, because if it's
not this role, there actually might be a future role,
So keep that connection alive. The best thing you can
ask before you leave the room is say, you're interviewing mem,
when would it make sense for us to catch up
next M Or when would it make sense to me
to touch base with you on the role? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And then I just give you the answer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Then they might say, oh, actually, we're interviewing a lot
of people for the next week, we'll reach out or
let's touch base in the next two weeks. There's your answer.
So you know, that's so helpful. So many people won't
ask that as well.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, really, maybe put that on our list of questions,
any question at that one that could be your last question,
your last question. I had a friend who is really
good at the follow up, and she will follow up.
And there's been times where even exactly what you said,
the role hasn't been right for her. So she's followed
up and they said, actually, we've gone with someone else
the role wasn't right. But she doesn't let that be
(26:17):
the end communication, especially if it's like a company, so
she really wants to work for and she's made so
many connections by like just taking the interview out for
coffee like every six months, just to catch up, be
friends with them if you really like them as a person,
this person, And it's just so helpful because then she's
like the first person to know when there's like a
new job opportunity available at that company.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I've hired people like that. I've gone, hey, this role
isn't actually right for you, but we've got one coming
up in two months that I think would be a
much better fit, is it? Okay if we have a
chat about that then, and then we got them in
and then make sure they chat with you. You're so good.
So again, circling back to like dating, like, yeah, keep
in touch, keep in the warm, yeah, keep it open.
Remember the right role for yours out there. You're not
(26:59):
just trying to impress them, You're figuring out if you
deserve it too. Start with one thing from today, so
do that deeper research we talked about. Prepare one of
those kill questions, or just practice channeling those nerves into
focused energy. And honestly, interviewing is a skill, not a talent.
So the more you practice these techniques, the more natural
they become. You've got this, You have got this.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of BIZ.
Now we are officially done for this season. I hope
you enjoy your summer holidays, and don't forget we are
still posting over on our Instagram at biz by Mama Mia.
And also, if you know someone who would find all
of our BIZ episodes or this episode in particular, useful,
please don't keep it to yourself, Please send them the link.
(27:40):
Please talk about us. So over drinks with the girls.
We've had so much great great feedback from you. Guys
are buzziz on how much both these episodes Tuesdays and
our Dilemma Inbox has helped you and we love love.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Bizz is produced by Sophie Campbell with audio production by
Leah Porgis and I will see you next time. Bye,
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and war
is that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to A'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
M Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
perfectly timed as you start to think about maybe applying
for a new job before the end of year. Lisa
and I break down why most of us approach interviews
completely wrong. We rock up hoping to wing it instead
(00:31):
of treating it like the learnable skill it actually is.
So whether you're just browsing job ads or seriously considering
a move, getting your interviewing skills sorted out now will
help set you up for success. If you've been putting
off applying for roles because interviews terrify you like I
mean same, this episode will completely shift your approach. It
is time to get prepared. Hello and welcome to beiers
(00:56):
Your work Life Sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I'm Mverner and I'm Luisa Lie. I'm a former head
of People in Culture and organizational coach and the founder
of Learner microp that helps you learn the people skills
to solve real work problems really fast.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
She does it all.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I've also interviewed a lot of people you have over
that time, and we're talking about that one moment today
that can completely transform your career, which is the job interview.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Every time someone says the word interview to me in
relation to job, I freak out. Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Like even when I'm not even in the position of
interviewing someone or having a job interview, I think on
both ends, I'm always like, oh my god, this is
really scary.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, it's like a being on stage moment.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, it literally is like a performance.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
But what if I told you if interviewing is actually
a skill that can be mastered and when you get
it right, it really opens doors and it can actually
be enjoyable too.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah. Okay, That's why I'm really really excited about this episode,
because we're talking about the whole spectrum of interviewing. If
you're interviewing for another job, if you're going for a promotion,
even if you're interviewing within the company, we're going to
cover it, or we're going to give you a roadmap
to interviewing skills.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yes we are, and we're going to talk about the
research that actually sets you apart from other candidates and
the questions you should be asking but show you're serious.
So you're not just answering, you are asking to Okay,
and we will turn interview anxiety into a bit of
a secret weapon.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I think it's more like you're going to be turning
my anxiety into a sacred weapon, because I have anxiety
right now about this. So if you're ready to start
winging it and start winning it, you're in the right place.
Let's get into it. So we actually chatted to some
people about their job interview tips and hacks, and this
(02:35):
is what they said. My mum always told me to
bring a bottle of water, and that's not just for nerves,
but it gives you a moment to think before you
answer tough questions.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
My go to hack is always bringing a notepad and
actually taking notes during the interview. It shows you're engaged
and gives you something to do with your hands when
you're nervous. I always researched the interviewer on LinkedIn beforehand,
not in a creepy way, but just so I can
find some common ground or mention something relevant they've posted about.
Those are some good hacks, So let's get into ours now.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So, when you've been on the hiring side, which I
have I've interviewed a lot of people. You can spoil
the difference between someone who's read the about us page
and the person that's actually done the prep and wanted
to get to know you and get to know the role,
and that deeper prep actually makes you really memorable.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Interesting. I feel like when I've interviewed people, that's not
something that I could easily pick up on. So how
do you actually pick up on that.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
There's a few different things that can tell what they're doing.
So they're not asking about facts, they're talking about more context.
So they might say things like I saw you're expanding
into APAC this year. You know, here's my experience across
that region, etc. So they've gone and done the deeper
work and they'll ask questions or they'll link their experience
back to that in really interesting ways.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Interesting. One thing that I've done is like I've given
people a bit of a stalk. M stalking is good,
a little not like a physically. I don't follow them
to work, obviously, but I give them a bit of
like LinkedIn stalk, Instagram stalk see what people are doing.
We actually had one of my colleagues here Mum and
mea who doesn't work here anymore, but she used to
work in the social media team. Her name is Mattie King,
(04:12):
and she immediately grabbed our attention because she made a
full Instagram account dedicated to Mamma Mia and why we
should hire her for the social media team.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
And every post she did was like a different reason
why and we were just like amazed. We were like,
get her in straight away.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
That is so impressive, and she got the job at
the job. Wow. I think like stalking people is really
great prep, right, and who cares if they see you
doing it? Like that's a good thing. Oh my gosh.
You know what, you want to look at their career path.
You know, have they built teams before, have they changed industries?
It tells you what they might value and also how
they might manage you as well, because you can see
(04:49):
hoo they've worked with.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And I think also just it helps you talk about
things that aren't necessarily just about the job. If you
see them like post something on LinkedIn or like like
something on LinkedIn, and you can be like, oh, I
also read this post on this knowing that they've also.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Read it well, and this sounds a little bit extra
in terms of the stalking. But you can also pick
up the language. So you can look at the language
they use in like comms, whether it's the job AD
or how they post this is next level and go okay,
so they say customers, they don't say clients, or they
say experiments, they don't say projects, and then you can
sprinkle that language into the interview and go immediately they're going, oh,
(05:25):
this feels like someone that would work here or could
work here. They speak our language.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I feel like that's also a psychology hack, Like I
feel like when you meet someone who kind of like
speaks like you and vibes with you, you automatically like them.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Will Yeah, I mean an is view is a connection point, right.
People need to be able to connect with you and
go I don't have to like you, but I do
have to be able to work with you, and can
I see that happening too. The other tip I'd say
is like you want to kind of decode the job
ad and see what's in there. So if you see
things like fast paced environment or you know, self starta
repeated so usually a signal the team might be underresourced
(05:57):
or they're growing really quickly. So you want to be
ready with examples of how you can work in that
ambiguity or questions around what that actually looks like.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, that's so smart. I feel like also with the
way that the job market is now, I think so
many people are trying to find a job and they're
interviewing and not getting it, and interviewing and not getting it,
and I think it's so easy to forget that also
you're interviewing the company, yes, yeah, and it's so easy
to miss those beige or red flags in those initial
(06:27):
job offers because you just so desperately need and want
a job. And I think that is a really good
reminder to also know that, like you're an asset to
that company. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I mean the worst thing you do is then just
take the job, yeah, having not asked those questions, and
then go, I don't want to be here. This is
not what I want it at all. So you're right,
it's your interview as well as their interview.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So doing this kind of prep like it does feel
like I guess extra work for doing an interview that
you aren't really sure you're going to get in the end,
But it is so so important because I think that
is what will help you stand out initially before you
even get into the interviewing room.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, And like you said, it's competitive, so you need
to be able to stand out and you want to
do that work to figure out if it's right for you.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
So when I did my very first interview here at
Mum and MEA, I was very much like, Okay, they're
going to ask me a bunch of questions and I'm
just going to answer them. And I thought it was
going to be like question answer, question answer, And then
I got in here and it was just so much
more casual than what I was expecting, in like a
good way, where they were still asking me about myself
(07:28):
and my experience, and I had prepped answers as well,
but I didn't realize it was actually more of a
conversation rather than just me just waiting there in silence
for the next question.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And you're lucky you walked into that kind of experience
in that environment, right. There are a lot of interviews
that are very formal and structured and go through a
million rounds of.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Whether it's like a panel of people interviewing it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There's a panel, but if you can bring it more
into a conversation space, I think you're going to make
yourself a lot more comfortable too, So you've done all
that prep work. I think the best you know, interviews
have these candidates asking questions so that then the interviewe
thinks okay, they really get it, like let's go over here,
and they actually end up going deeper in the conversation. Yeah,
(08:09):
I have four questions that I've either used or that
come to mind for me. These are some of the
best questions I've seen people use or I've actually used
them myself and worked out, you know, whether the role
was right. So I want to share those with you today.
I am so question one that you can ask. You
can pause this and write this down if I joined tomorrow,
what's the first problem or project you'd want me to tackle?
So this makes them picture you doing the work, and
(08:32):
it shows you're ready to deliver this value immediately. And
then you get a really good sense of like what
is the actual work I'll be doing, not what the
job ads is?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That is so smart.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So often these job ads can be glorified titles.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And they want to convince you for the interview.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yes, and they're a bit mysterious, But by asking this
you can actually work out what your day to day
looks like and whether you actually want that.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's such a good questional question.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Something else someone asked me, which I thought was an
absolute doozy, was if you were looking back six months
from now, what would have happened for you to feel
like hiring me was the right call. So when I
was asked that question as the interviewee, I was like, okay, like,
what kind of outcomes do I really want the role
to drive? What would success look like in that role?
I had to really clearly define that for them, which
(09:17):
was great, right because we ended up hiring them and
they knew from day one what was going to happen
over the next six months.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So that was a good one. Yeah, this is one
I've asked. Okay, what have people in this role done
really well in the past and where have they struggled?
Oh that's a good one, especially if you've seen a
business higher for this kind of role, I guess consistently
or yeah, you're like, what's going on here? And is
this the right fit? Because do you know what, sometimes
there is just natural turnover, but also sometimes there are
(09:44):
roles that just aren't quite right too.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, so surely they would be like, business is seeing
the same role not work out for candidate after candidate,
and surely that's a reevaluation of the actual role.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yes, and also the business and how it's operating whether
that role is needed. Yes, yeah, that all happens. I
think it shows your willingness to learn from past patterns,
but it also prompts them around it and show some
really big picture thinking too.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
They're like, actually, we don't need this.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Actually we don't need this role. That happened to me
in an interview. I guess I was asking these kind
of questions and I asked this question. It was a
brand new role they're putting in, like this talent culture
director of across a massive business. It was a new role.
The interviewer asked me what I thought it was, or
what I thought would be, like, I mean, I can
tell you, but what's your vision for the role? And
then I got into a second in to you And
(10:32):
then after that they decided they didn't even want the
role at all, so they didn't hire anyone, thank god.
So I mean, better that I find out then than go, oh,
six months in, I'm not passing probation because you actually
don't even need the role.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Oh my god. I love how they were like, what
a good question. What do you think Christian do?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I was like red flags. He's like, I don't know,
baby to your company, Yeah, that's totally your complete real
red flag that you don't know what I should be
achieving or what you want the role to achieve. So
that is a great question. Please ask that because it
helps get you on the same page as them too.
And I think when you ask questions like these, you
know you're not just feeling the time at the end
of the interview, You're showing them how you think, how
(11:11):
you work, and really already picturing yourself in the role
too and what they would look like. So that'll help
make conversational and take it out of like firing squad.
They're just pumping me with questions into what can I
ask here and how can I get to understand it?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I love that question. Okay, I have a confession to make.
Tell me when it comes to questions, because I think
these questions are so so good and just to pull
it all the way back. As someone who's never interviewed
before I got my role at Mama Mia, I didn't
actually know as an interview weed that you can ask
questions back. I always thought it was like on me,
(11:48):
like I have to be the best version of myself
forgetting that. Also, I'm also going to be helping the
company if I do get this role. And I remember
I did my interview at Mama Maya and they were like,
do you have any questions for us? And I was like, no, oh,
I know. And then I went home and my mom
was like, did they ask you if you had any
questions for them? And I was like, yeah, they asked,
and She's like, what do you say? And I was like, oh,
I said nothing because I didn't have any.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
And she was like no, no, I'm cringing.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
The blood run from her face and she was like, Emily,
you always.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Ask ask anything. Why I didn't have anything? The divorces
that you fumble and then you go, oh, well, you know,
and you ask a really random question altogether, But every.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Policy, can I take?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Can you leave after I start?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Can I away from home all days?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So you have to know that everyone's going to ask
that question at the end. It's just like a natural
close to the conversation, right, did you have any questions
for us? So think of something.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I think any one of these that you've just mentioned,
like just haven't memorized have it on retailer, Like these
are the great great questions and also questions I feel
like they won't really expect, Like I feel like interviewers
sometimes think that that last question is more just going
to be like very like what's the dress code blah
blah blah.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, and then when you actually have.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
To all so forced them to think. I think that's
going to stick into their mind for like all the
other interviews they do next.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah. I mean I've interviewed people who actually had a
book and they opened it up and they had it
written down. I was like, oh my gosh, amazing, Like
look at the prep you've done. I don't care that
if you're like down, I loved it. Okay, good, They've
thought about it, they've written it down. I've said, I've
wrote down some questions I'd like to ask. I've also
interviewed people who are like completely distracted, like worst interview ever.
I'm like, would you like to be here still in
(13:31):
this interview? And so I've seen the full spectrum, please
just con't prepared and like cast something.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Not the annual leaf thing but not the annualing.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So we've covered the right questions to ask, but next
up we are going to be talking about how to
actually manage those pre interview nerves so you can actually
deliver all that preparation and show up as the best
self you want to be.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So, something I want you to know is that pretty
much everyone gets nervous in interviews. Like I've seen senior
leaders with decades of experience to it, I've interviewed at
that level. I've also interviewed someone with their first time role,
same nerves, right, I think the trick is not to
pretend that you're not nervous, but know how to work
with it so you can still really think clearly and connects.
And we were just talking about this before around like
(14:20):
confidence and preparation as well. The nervous energy isn't the enemy,
but it's the unfocused nervous energy that is. So you
really need to channel it, whether it's writing those questions
down or it is doing a bit of prep and
going through it with the friends, like channel the nervous
energy into something. Yeah, there's this idea from coaching that
I really like. It's from a book called The Inner
(14:41):
Game by Timothy Gallaway, and it has this formula where
it says your performance equals your potential minus interference.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Your performance equals your potential potential minus interference.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So how you perform on the day is your potential,
like right, but you have to get rid of all
the interference. And the interference is all the stuff messing
with your head, all the nervous energy. I can't do this.
I didn't have a question, the self doubt, all the
self doubt and everything. For me, that's the perfect way
to think about confidence coming into the room. You've already
got the skills and experience, like, that's your potential.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
The only thing that can get in the way is
the self doubt, you say, the overthinking as well. You know,
you go, I didn't have a question. I'm gonna start spiraling.
They think I'm dumb, they think I can't do the role,
and then you completely lose your train of thought and
you're off track. Right, So before you go in the room,
if you can strip some of that back, more of
your potential comes through.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Does that make sense, Yeah, it does make sense.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So how you perform on the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Day, like you said, you will always always get nervous
with these interviews. And there are some things that you
can't control, like some people can't control shaking. Some people
can't control like a wobbly voice. So the things you
can control, like the self doubt and stuff like handle that.
Put that away, yes, and then the other things won't
seem as big.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
One of the tricks I use, like self talk is
really big, right, Yeah, we all do it. Oh, I'm
so dumb. I didn't answer that question properly. I'm not
going to get it, etc. It's unbelievable. The powersh flip
it instead of going so nervous, I'm so nervous. I'm
so nervous, and you talk yourself into being nervous, you
start going, I'm really excited about this.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And if you just repeat that to yourself a couple
of times, you'll start to believe it because the stories
we tell ourselves that's so true. Do that before you
walk in the room. Have you tried anything else? Like
before you walk in the room.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I have actually tried a few things. Years ago, I
interviewed these two young women who have a podcast together
called Interview Boss. Yeah, and their whole thing is teaching
other young women on how to nail job interviews great,
and some of the tips they gave me has worked
so so well, not even in the interview process, but
just they feel like the nervous speaker in general, or
nervous about talking about yourself or any type of interview.
(16:44):
One of the things they said is always accept the
glass of water. Ah, when they offer you a glass
of water. There's something psychological about when you offer someone
a glass of water and they accept it, and you
go get them a glass of water. For some reason,
we like that person a bit more.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Ah. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, when you say no to a glass of water,
it's the first thing you're saying to that person is
like a rich yeah, And there's some chemical in our
brain which goes, oh, didn't like that. Even though you're
actually making them do more work by getting the glass
of water, they actually like you a bit better by
doing that.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm thinking about all the times I've interviewed people and
they've said yes or no, and when they do say no,
it feels really awkward, like, oh, okay, we should we
sit down now. Yeah. So if you've invited them into
your house and like, no, I don't want to drink.
I'm just here to talk. Yeah, Okay, all right, sure.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's so small, but it's like so significant. Another thing
is like, now you have your glass of water, right, Yes,
A lot of people get nervous when they're in an interview,
and the way that they get nervous is that they
shake a lot. If you pick up your glass of
water take a sip, your hand might be a bit shaky.
And I think when it comes to nerves, nerves that
are like where everyone can see are the most annoying
type of nerves. Like it's so different when it's like
(17:49):
inside and no one else can tell, but when people
can see it and manifest so physically. Clench your butt cheeks.
What clenching your butt cheeks while picking up a glass
of water will stop you from shaking?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I wish I was shaking so I could try.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It now I know we's just to comfortable with each other.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Oh my gosh. I think the water is a good
way to pause as well. Yeah, so just like put
a pause in there. Rather than brushing into your answers,
you can actually go, okay, what if they actually ask here,
I'll have a drink. Pause.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Think about it while you're said I Because.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
People are so uncomfortable with silence. But it's okay if
you drink a glass of water and then you go
and ask a clarifying question if you need thinking time,
and then just go, okay, I'm here to have a conversation.
How would this be a conversational answer? Yeah, off, we go,
got my water, I'm ready to go.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, that's a suit.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What about if your brain blanks in the interview.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
M I had so many people right into me saying
what happens if your brain banks? It's really hard. I'm
a big rambler. There's been so many times, and I
think it's so different depending on the situation you're in.
Sometimes you have to fill space if you're like doing
like a silo presentation, and I just like ramble and
ramble in an interview, I think you can give yourself
(18:56):
more grace because the interviewer knows that you're nervous. You
know that you're nervous. Don't be afraid of the silence.
I've had this once when my brain completely blanked. And
this is where you can show off and look prepared.
If you have like a notebook with notes, I would
literally say, oh, that's such a good question. Do you
mind if I just check my notes on that. Yes, yeah,
buy yourself some time, Buy yourself some time.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I've had my brain blank, not an interview, but in
a presentation, and it's the most awful feeling. Yeah, there's
nothing quite like it. It's almost like out of body.
You're like, oh my gosh, do I have any thoughts?
What's happening here? But if you've done the prep beforehand,
you can go back and share something else so you
can connect it back into another story. So this great
journalist once told me that you don't have to actually
answer the question. So does celebrity. Yeah, so they can
(19:45):
ask you any question and you can like talk about
a story or an experience that may not necessarily answer that,
but it'll buy you some time to talk about something
you've already pre prepared. Right. Yeah, that's so that's quite helpful.
Just go with that instead. I really like the watersip
because I've been seeing these things on social media about
the coffee cup test.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, dot dot dot Okay, the coffee cup test. It
when completely viral on TikTok, and it's this idea that
when you go into a company and you sit down
for the interview, the interview is also happening in the
waiting room, and it's also happening after you leave the interview.
And apparently some companies are doing this kind of test
(20:23):
where if you sit down and they've asked, do you
want a glass of water or do you want a coffee?
Or can I get you anything? And you say yes.
After the interview, you finish your water, you finish your coffee,
what do you do with the cup? Do you take
it with you and put it in the kitchen, the
office kitchen, or do you just leave it there? And
apparently like some companies or some interviewers are using that
as like a gauge of what kind of person they're interviewing,
(20:47):
like someone who's like careless and leaves a cup for
someone else to clean up, or someone who's aware of
it and gets it away.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's be honest, we all hate those people in a
meeting room that do that. We don't maybe they don't
want more of those people.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I feel like if I'm in an interview and someone's
offered me a cup of water, I might be like,
what do you want me to do with this? But
I also think I might be the person who would
just leave it there and not really think about it. Yes,
which is so different to if I'm in a meeting,
if I'm with friends and stuff. Of course I'm going
to take my cup because I know where the kitchen
is and I know to put in a dishwasher. Do
(21:19):
you want me to walk through your whole office to
find the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
I know that would be really awkward with me. I
think this is a strange thing that just went viral,
and it's probably taken out of context a bit. It
probably is a dard point. Like I remember interviewing people
and they would have come through someone else to get
to the interview room, and that person would be like, Oh,
they were really friendly, or ooh, they didn't really say much,
did they. It's a first impressions thing, and you want
(21:42):
to make a good first impression, whether or not they're
judging you on the actual coffee cup water glass situation.
I don't think it's the whole answer, So please don't
think you missed the job because of the coffee cup.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, but I mean, I guess it's good to know
if people are.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
It is, and you want to build rapport and you
want to build some kind of connection, so maybe just.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Ask Yeah, but I exactly what you said I would
say that when you go for an interview, I pretend
that the interview has started the minute I stepped foot
into the Oh yeah, whoever you interact with, obviously you're
going to be normal because you're a normal person. You're
not going to be crazy person. And then suddenly just
change face when you're into that room. But just be
aware of you don't know who you're talking to. You
(22:18):
don't know who's like greeting you.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Obviously, treat every single person with respect as you should in.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Your day today, because you're a nice person.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
If you're a nice person.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I think you know, as an interviewer, you need to
also think about having respect for the person as much
as they're showing respect for you taking the time to
interview them as well. Yeah, so please don't stack them
back to back either. Don't like they're in a revolving door.
It's really weird, so weird.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Okay, we're getting close to the end of our interview episode,
but we have my favorite segment out our one useful thing, Lise,
what is our one useful thing today?
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So I'm gonna give you someone to follow because I
follow him on LinkedIn. I'm not actually interviewing at the moment.
But I see this content, I'm like, God, that'll be
so helped full for someone who is interviewing right now.
His name is Eli Gounduz, and if you're in that interviews,
I know you're prepping to be. He's a technical recruiter
at Lassian, but he's also a career coach and he
posts the most practical helpful advice, like literal copy and
(23:20):
paste stuff that you can do amazing. I think one
of the hardest parts of the interview is actually getting
in the room. And I hear that from so many
people right now. They're going, I can't get the interview,
let alone, you know, be able to prep for it.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's so hard right now.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
It is really hard. So he has got this method
called pitch proof ping personalized. So I'll give you the
play that he has, OK, and I'm going to link
to it in the show notes too because it's brilliant.
So first one is pitch. So you want to open
with three lines max, who you are, what you bring
while you're reaching out. Then you're going to use some proof.
So whether that's like a bit of a case study
or an example of something you've done not a one pager,
(23:56):
but you know, some kind of little summary in there
of something that's relevant to that role. Yeah, so that's
your proof. Then you get a ping them a few
days later, like four or five days later. Don't stop
after one message, don't just go so well, I asked
them about the role and no one responded, So follow up.
Everyone's busy. Yeah, And then the last step is personalized.
So he will say, you know, mention a product, or
(24:16):
they're expanding into apac or some kind of thing like that,
which is something you admire about the business, or a
problem they're solving, something they've posted about recently. To connect
it back to why you're interested in the job and
why you're interested in the role. And he says it's
a really successful way to actually cut through because these
people who are interviewing are getting so many applications, so
(24:36):
pitch proofing and personalize them to actually get the interview
in the first place.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's so good, that's so handy and so easy to remember.
I also want to talk about how you've done your interview.
You've done all of the little tips and tricks we've
given you, and you haven't heard from them in a while.
I know that it's always useful to follow up. But
I think what people struggle with is the time frame
on when to follow up.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Do you wait a week?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Do you wait a few days? You don't want to
seem too keen, but you also I want to miss
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, so two things on this. I think that interviewing
is a little bit like dating, right in a good way. Yeah. Actually,
maybe you can tell me a little bit more about this.
Like dating right now, I can tell you that, So
do not take the approach of treat them mean, keep
them keen. That will not work. Like you want to
follow up and show that you're interested.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
They really don't care.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, and you want to show that you're interested and
keep in touch with them as well, because if it's
not this role, there actually might be a future role,
So keep that connection alive. The best thing you can
ask before you leave the room is say, you're interviewing mem,
when would it make sense for us to catch up
next M Or when would it make sense to me
to touch base with you on the role? Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And then I just give you the answer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Then they might say, oh, actually, we're interviewing a lot
of people for the next week, we'll reach out or
let's touch base in the next two weeks. There's your answer.
So you know, that's so helpful. So many people won't
ask that as well.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, really, maybe put that on our list of questions,
any question at that one that could be your last question,
your last question. I had a friend who is really
good at the follow up, and she will follow up.
And there's been times where even exactly what you said,
the role hasn't been right for her. So she's followed
up and they said, actually, we've gone with someone else
the role wasn't right. But she doesn't let that be
(26:17):
the end communication, especially if it's like a company, so
she really wants to work for and she's made so
many connections by like just taking the interview out for
coffee like every six months, just to catch up, be
friends with them if you really like them as a person,
this person, And it's just so helpful because then she's
like the first person to know when there's like a
new job opportunity available at that company.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I've hired people like that. I've gone, hey, this role
isn't actually right for you, but we've got one coming
up in two months that I think would be a
much better fit, is it? Okay if we have a
chat about that then, and then we got them in
and then make sure they chat with you. You're so good.
So again, circling back to like dating, like, yeah, keep
in touch, keep in the warm, yeah, keep it open.
Remember the right role for yours out there. You're not
(26:59):
just trying to impress them, You're figuring out if you
deserve it too. Start with one thing from today, so
do that deeper research we talked about. Prepare one of
those kill questions, or just practice channeling those nerves into
focused energy. And honestly, interviewing is a skill, not a talent.
So the more you practice these techniques, the more natural
they become. You've got this, You have got this.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of BIZ.
Now we are officially done for this season. I hope
you enjoy your summer holidays, and don't forget we are
still posting over on our Instagram at biz by Mama Mia.
And also, if you know someone who would find all
of our BIZ episodes or this episode in particular, useful,
please don't keep it to yourself, Please send them the link.
(27:40):
Please talk about us. So over drinks with the girls.
We've had so much great great feedback from you. Guys
are buzziz on how much both these episodes Tuesdays and
our Dilemma Inbox has helped you and we love love.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Bizz is produced by Sophie Campbell with audio production by
Leah Porgis and I will see you next time. Bye,
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and war
is that this podcast is recorded on
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