October 22, 2025 • 28 mins
Do you feel guilty for taking breaks? Put work ahead of your relationships? Ignore your health in the name of productivity? You might be stuck in workaholic mode without even realising it!
Meet your new BIZ hosts: Lisa Lie (former Head of People & Culture who worked herself into burnout twice in one year) and Em Vernem (Associate Editor at Mamamia who discovered that giving 80% at work prevents the burnout that comes from constantly operating at 100%). They've been trapped in the cycle, escaped it, and now they're exposing the workaholic trap that's keeping high-achievers burning out—even when they love what they do.
You'll learn:
- The signs you're already caught in the cycle
- Where workaholic tendencies actually come from (hint: it's not what you think)
- How the workaholic trap sabotages your daily life without you noticing
- Why that promotion might be making everything worse
PLUS we take the University of Bergen’s 7-point Workaholism Test (finally, a way to tell the difference between working hard and working too hard), and chat the exact steps Lisa took to escape the workaholic cycle for good!
Resources That Actually Work:
Jane Martino, Co-Founder of Smiling Mind and Coach at Kintsugi Way
Mamamia's Well Burnout Episode: Is It Burnout Or Am I Just Really Tired?
7 Signs You May Be A Workaholic
The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide To Personal Freedom'by Don Miguel Ruiz
Less Hustle, More Happy by Claire Seeber
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
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Support independent women's media.
Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
HOSTS: Lisa Lie and Em Vernem
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and Welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
m Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
absolutely essential right now as we head towards the end
of the year. Lisa and I dive into the workaholic
trap that always on feeling where you can't switch off
from work. With Christmas deadlines approaching and that pressure to
(00:31):
wrap up everything before the summer holidays, It's so easy
to fall into this cycle if you've been feeling guilty
about taking breaks or just can't seem to switch off
during this busy period. This conversation will help you figure
out if you're working hard or working too hard. Let's
dive in. Hello and welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted,
(00:54):
and Welcome to the new era of Bierz. It is
going to be like a tailor swift era. We're going
to go through it all, but we are going to
give you a whole bunch of new things to work through,
like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to
be really fun and exciting, because work and career can
be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host, Lisa.
Welcome to BIZ.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put
a link in our show notes so you can download
it from the app store. I don't think I've probably
introduced myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate
editor and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very,
very excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of
BIZ for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have
(01:49):
to thank Michelle Batisbye and sohearst Our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Bizz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. But we
can't wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice
inside of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So,
whether you're a regular or you've just dropped in, welcome
(02:09):
to the next.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Chapter of BIZ. We are here for real.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how to
make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Today, we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
You know, it feeling like you should always be working,
even when you're not sure it's.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Getting you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, they're always on, feeling exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
And I think a lot of us, especially if you
came up on that girl boss hustle culture stage of life,
have fallen into this trap at some point because it's
what was expected of us and it's where we saw
people achieving and solo success. So today, when I'm packing,
why it happens, how to spot it in yourself, and
most importantly, how to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, Li, So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Here's what we got. Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a
bit of a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because
I'm afraid everything will fall apart without.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Me three years.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I know, Well, let me just swish off. Hi. I'm
Ella and I'm a workaholic. I have no boundaries. I've
even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts. Email
addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
No, Tina, there's no good you switch off, girl.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I really love what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But I've worked through every public holiday this year. It's
a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I talk to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too,
so there's a lot of people feeling it. I think
we should talk about where this trap actually starts, because
it usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it
built up really early, and it built up from something
really simple, like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You've picked that up already. You've done a few things.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better, and
being known for it. And when something's working, you really
double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became
(05:00):
quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that you
start to tell yourself if I work hard, then I'm rewarded,
and it's really like, what is.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Your definition of working hard? Right?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
That behavior became part of how I operated all the
time throughout my career, and you know as well as
I do that that is not sustainable. So the trip
is that the more that you become that person, the
harder it is to stop. Like people expect it, you
expected of yourself, and before you know it, working all
the time just becomes the norm. And it can work
for a while, and it did work for me for
(05:32):
quite a while, but there's always a point where you
hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Something shifts.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, something in
your personal life change now. Yes, generally you can workaholic
yourself into burnout right whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You realize then that this way.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Of working is not working for me and it's not
going to get me to where I want to go next.
Do you relate with like being this workaholic?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Mumma Mea. Because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about its many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that, and now I'm twenty nine. And I
remember when I started, the only person I knew who
had like the big career that I wanted to achieve
(06:15):
was my mom. Like she was just like big boss energyah,
and she was a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
And I was like, that's what I have to do.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And I remember I was doing like I started here
and everyone was like go home, go, Like it was crazy.
I was so young and I would be here to
like eight pm, doing like a meaningless task that I
didn't really need to do, and I just wanted to
do it and show that I could do it. And
I feel like it's generational, right, Like I feel like
a certain generation awarded that kind of work.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And that's kind of shifting.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Now now that like millennials and older gen zs are
becoming managers. It's more respectful to not have to rely
on people to show that they're literally.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Dying for the job.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, And I used to be so annoyed because I
would see young girls come into work working hard, but
not going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much
as I did when I first this job, and I
was like, why are they also achieving the same things
I achieved? And then I realized it's not because they're
not working hard, it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I think it's really interesting the point you rise around
the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my phases of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader, and there are a group of
people around me.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
We were a really high performing team, and.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit workaholics
or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's actually such a good point because I do think yeah,
exactly what you said. It's to your environment and even
like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle
as well, because I feel like the one point in
your life where you can switch off and not be
workaholic is when you're not at work.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, but then all.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
My friends and my closest friends are also in the
same line and work with me. Like, they're all journalists,
all workaholics. So even when we're like out of drinks,
out a dinner, it's like, what are you doing at work?
Speaker 4 (07:54):
What's going on the work? Everyone knows everyone.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
It's just one of those things where it can filter
into your life without you even realizing it.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that, you know,
people can rely on me. Therefore, I don't want to
let people down, and so I'll keep working to make
sure that I'm not letting anyone else down. I mentioned
to you earlier there was this tipping point for me
(08:23):
last year in this I think I've always been a
bit of a work colic like we always have really
good work ethic, and it's varied into stages of being
good work ethic, into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But last year was.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right,
And so as I was coming through the second point
of realizing that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something
has got to change.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion and to
the point where you just like stare at the screen
and not like get anything, Douge, Like, oh, I just
don't even know where to start, so you almost like
crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big, big
sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(09:12):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, physically seeing.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, exactly, And so the physical part of them, like right,
at some point you have to listen to your body
and realize that it's trying to tell you something. And
so for me last year, that was the point where
I'm like, Okay, I need to find out more about
this and I need to figure out a better way
of working going forward. So that's when I started paying
attention to the signs, and honestly, they weren't really dramatic.
(09:38):
Like I mentioned one before was like just feeling really
physically tired. But it can also be small stuff that
leads into this, like identifying that you're in workholic mode.
So one you said before like must be on twenty
four to seven. Yeah, another one was mine. I was
very guilty of this, thinking about how you can free
out more time to work.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Yes, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, and do you know what when you clock in
your head, you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happens, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I've done that.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My big tell is when I wake up and the
first thing I do is check my cycle or check
my emails. Yep, because it usually is check Instagram, which
is it as unhealthy, Yes, but it's a social app
versus a work app. Exactly when I wake up and
I'm like, what happened on cycle when I was sleep, Like,
nothing's happened.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Everyone else was asleep as well.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
But it's just one of those things where I'm like, oh,
I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yes, that as one hundred percent of sign One of
my signs as well was that thinking TV was a
waste of time, Like why wouldn't you be doing something
productive with your time?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Actually set out loud, Oh my god, my mom would
love you, which.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It's not right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Day every single day.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
There's like rest and recovery and training and things like
that built into it. That was a really good analogy
for me to like, go, Okay, something has to shift here. Yeah.
I also think, like it's worth touching on him that
(11:25):
there are points in your career where you do want
to or have to work hard and like you want
to dig in right. You know, there are times in
my career where I was working on certain projects and
really good opportunities, and I'm sure you'd like resonate with this.
And I did have to dig deep, but it wasn't
twenty four to seven and it wasn't every day a
week as well, And so that's not all we're talking
about here. We're saying, yes, work hard at points, but
(11:46):
don't make it habit.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I have a running joke here at Mama Mia and
I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's head
of content, and I've said I probably give about eighty
percent on myself at work, and they.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Were like, what, like should you be telling me this?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And I was like, I actually think it's quite true
because one hundred percent for me, like the way I
work is workaholic level. Yeah, Like, if you want me
at one hundred percent, just know I'm going to be
burnt out in two months.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Like I know when to clock off, I know when
to relax, I know when to take my break. I
know if I need to start a bit later, if
I finish a bit earlier, because I'm confident that I
am a good worker, and I'm confident that I work
hard and I have to do these little things and
in my head when I say eighty percent, it helps
me bring it back. Yes, And I don't mean it's
like if you aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Please work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
where you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job. Yeah, and when
I realized I could still get the same things out
of my job by like relaxing a little bit I
was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to
do that, Like I think I go into waves as well. Yes,
(13:29):
exactly what you said, Like, there will be times in
my career, which is right now because I've got like
a new job and I want to.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Be the best of the best at it, So.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
There will be times like now where I will probably
tap into that workaholicism. Yeah, but there will be times
where I know I have to pull it back because
I don't want to burn out.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
So I do think you.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Will go through waves in your career where you will
have to work a bit harder. Then sometimes you can
just like take a back seat, still work up, take
a bit of a back seat, and just be aware
of that. Like I think, once you're actually aware of
your pattern, then it makes it so much easier to control.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually,
i think I'm quite serious about.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That, Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like what
is this whiplash? Like one day em is like working
on this level and now she's working on this level.
They're aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yes we did.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
When you showed me this, I was like, I am
going to show everyone this. So the Department of Psychosocial
Science at the University of Bergen in Norway developed a
work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that characterize a workaholic.
And they came up with seven signs, and they said
that if you answer often or always to any of
(14:49):
these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies. And brace yourselves
because they are quite like simple things that I didn't
even realize were signs of a workaholic. So Number one,
you think of how you can free up more time
to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Yes. Number two, you spend much more time working than
initially intended.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Now enough, now please do Number three, you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor of
let anyone down.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, And I think this also comes in with the
generational thing, like what certain generations expect.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Like I have a friend.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Whose boss is always like so they manage a team,
and then their boss oversees like three.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Teams, okay, And with my friend's team, a lot of
them work from home.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Her boss comes in and she's like, everyone's working from
home again, what the hell? And she's like, I'm the
most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers, You've seen
how hard we work. And then he realized. He was like,
oh my god. Yeah, I don't have to see them
to know that they're working. Yes, correct, that's a really
good example. I hope he's listening.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
So number four, you have been told.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
By to cut down on work without listening to them. Oh,
that's a bit of a red flag to me.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert on the plane. On the plane and
my girlfriend's like, do you need to do that right now?
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up, because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Edited some content?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
It was good, but did it really need to have that'd.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Have been editing as you had the tailor swift comes out.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay,
good good, good guy.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Five.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
This one rings so true.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
To me, does it.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, if I go on a holiday, I make it
a point to delete my cyc an email and I
give my numbers to the people who need my number
in case there's an emergency.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I'm a journalist, I'm a podcaster. What kind of emergency
I know?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I think I don't think they need from me.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like are you the CEO of
a fourtune five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It is so like, No, if you're a surgeon, a
different story. Yeah, but not all of us are saving lives. No, Okay,
Number six, you deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise
because of your work.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Oh I mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Actually, are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So it's either yeah, yeah, even
this year, I'm like full pilates zen must must be
part of my day kind of situation to bring it back.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
It's hard though, especially the hobby stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like
why we you waste your time watching TV? Yeah, but
like why would we waste the time doing stuff that's
not work.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Number seven, you work so much that it has negatively
influenced your health. This is a big one. I was
burnt out. I can't remember what year it was. I
became so physically sick. I had to take three weeks
off work.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like
felt like the flu but no flu symptoms and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(18:50):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think are also much more aware of it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether that's a close friend
or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You need to work it out, and your workplace should
be on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at
MoMA mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like,
go do your thing that's working yourself, where like be
aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like,
it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept
of burnout.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
There's still places where they're like, what do you mean.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I started my career in advertising and this is like city.
I know this is like fifteen years ago as well
when it started, and it was like glamorized burnout. It
was full work hard, play hard, and I loved it
and I was young.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But you can't keep doing that forever.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, next up, we're going to tell you how you
can break free of that and share some of our
tips around how we've moved out of it.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
Don't worry, it's not a doom and glamy No, it
is not gloom.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
It's awful of hope from here. So I thought we
could share what's helped us both. I want to share
what I've recently that's actually really helped me start to
break out of that trap and also almost out of
that mindset of I must work all the time and
(20:13):
keep it in check, because, like you've said, like you
can eb and flow through this, there are times when
you can work hard. We just won't want you to
end up becoming a workaholic and that being part of
your life. Right, I will say, I'm still a work
in progress. I really love what I do, and so
I do find it hard to switch off. You know,
I was even writing these notes quite late at night
for this episode.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Got that notification girl.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It was great for me, who checks my emails at
six thirty eight?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I thought, so keeping it in check and just being
much more wherever And like, I think the start of
any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization
that you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So a couple of things I did.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So when I was in burnout Burnout Part two last year,
I was like, something has to change.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach, performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(21:19):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(21:41):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
We've got a prop.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah her
book review was like this transfer my life. My book
review is the start and the end are a bit
woo woo for me.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But the Four Agreements you do not give wo wo
out of everything.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
No, right, yeah, But I was like, I'm very like
open to learning and open minded. So I was like, hmm,
I had to push through the first couple of chapters.
But then when we got into the four Agreements around
like you know, what you should agree with yourself and
the kind of like work, life and life you want
to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement
being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally, Third,
(22:33):
don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And
it talks about those and the minds that you have
around each of those things.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off woo woo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You should go to where you haven't been before. Yeah,
that's true. Actually, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Right?
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yeah, go foraging?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yes, go foraging by this book that Opra service transformational.
So my third tip is balance, like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Does good look like?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done, what does.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Good look like?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And so then I've got my top three or four
things that have to do that's so good. And so
my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh, I hate that word.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I actual there's someone who's like such a perm I
just want to know what everyone's doing.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I know, I mean everyone's business.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, Like I'll just find out this one more thing boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. It's like when you were saying before,
like someone told me I can't work, But at some
point you realize that work is more of a marathon,
not a sprint, and if we treat it like a sprint, they.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, you enjoy it too, like you should be able
to enjoy work. And so if you think about it
that way, then the boundaries become why do I need
these boundaries? Like? Do I need them so my work
can be more sustainable? Or I can sustain this high
level performance for a while? Do I need them because
I want to dedicate some time to other areas in
(24:19):
my life as well?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Life exercise? That's also important?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
And so figure out why it's important for you, because
if you don't do that top and tail of why,
like why with the coach and then why should I
set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any
kind of change.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Ah Okay, I do have a few tips that worked
for me personally, So are.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
They woo woo?
Speaker 4 (24:39):
They're not woo wo.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Okay, So I feel like, if you're listening, definitely take
on Lisa's tips, use mine as a grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Let's go take your pick.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I mean
is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot of
my closest friends are also industry friends who know about
work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in your
life who are the complete opposite and hang out with
them a lot.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
My person I go to when I feel.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Like I'm working a lot and a lot and a lot,
and it's like kind of taking out my whole life
is my nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your
nana and be on your phone.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
That's so rude.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And she has no idea about anything. So we're just
talking about the garden. We're talking about what she watched
on Netflix lately. We're talking about new Spice she found.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Excellent, Yep, that work.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook,
and she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
And the other tip is fake holidays.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So what I mean by this you knowing you're a
workaholic is really hard. Like even like what I do
when I go on holidays or when I'm off on
the weekend, I delete my email and my Slack from
my phone. Okay, Still I will have these little times
where I'll be on the toilet or no one's around me,
and I'll like quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer,
(25:59):
check something. What I do in some situations is like,
say it's a weekend, I tell work that I'm going
to be away in a place where there's no reception.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So, And it's not just telling them as in like
don't message me, but it's like telling yourself like yes,
you've given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and
not check your phone over the weekend because people will
definitely not message you. Now, it's like giving you like
it's fine, people aren't going to message you. Firstly, they
won't message you on the weekend, but now they definitely
won't because you told them me I have no reception exactly.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Like the stories we tell ourselves as well, and how
much we you're convinced you can stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
If it works, do it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you feel like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead. Are phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh,
quickly check your computer.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I try to find hobbies where you physically can't do that.
And one of mine is I used to play piano
and as younger and I've started taking it up again.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
One plank piano. You actually can't check your phone when
you're playing piano. It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And then if you have those like work a whole
tendencies where you just want to achieve something and be
good at it, just make finishing that piano piece that thing, yes,
and just tell yourself that if I finish this, if
I do that, then that's something I've achieved. And then
you haven't thought about work for like an hour.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it, Like.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's so nice, like it's the one thing that I
can do where like you physically can't think about anything
else because then your stuff it up exactly.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
It's just so nice.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yes, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Think if we can give everyone, like one useful thing
to go away from this with is if you are
feeling like you're part of some of these workaholic tendencies
are calling out to you and the list of you
this year with us before figure out why, Yeah, talk
to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(28:08):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So good.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Bierz.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I hoped you learned a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
We have a handful of more episodes that we'll be
dropping into your podcast feed over the next few weeks,
so please stay tuned and if you know someone who
would find this particular biz episode useful or you know
that they'll love it.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Please pass it on to them. You can send them
the link, or you can just tell them about it
over drinks.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Don't forget, We're still posting over on our Instagram. We
are at Biz by Mom and Mia. Bizz is produced
by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges and I.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Will see you next time. Bye, Mamma.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hello and Welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
m Vernum and today we're bringing back an episode that's
absolutely essential right now as we head towards the end
of the year. Lisa and I dive into the workaholic
trap that always on feeling where you can't switch off
from work. With Christmas deadlines approaching and that pressure to
(00:31):
wrap up everything before the summer holidays, It's so easy
to fall into this cycle if you've been feeling guilty
about taking breaks or just can't seem to switch off
during this busy period. This conversation will help you figure
out if you're working hard or working too hard. Let's
dive in. Hello and welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted,
(00:54):
and Welcome to the new era of Bierz. It is
going to be like a tailor swift era. We're going
to go through it all, but we are going to
give you a whole bunch of new things to work through,
like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to
be really fun and exciting, because work and career can
be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host, Lisa.
Welcome to BIZ.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put
a link in our show notes so you can download
it from the app store. I don't think I've probably
introduced myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate
editor and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very,
very excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of
BIZ for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have
(01:49):
to thank Michelle Batisbye and sohearst Our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Bizz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. But we
can't wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice
inside of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So,
whether you're a regular or you've just dropped in, welcome
(02:09):
to the next.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Chapter of BIZ. We are here for real.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how to
make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Today, we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
You know, it feeling like you should always be working,
even when you're not sure it's.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Getting you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, they're always on, feeling exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
And I think a lot of us, especially if you
came up on that girl boss hustle culture stage of life,
have fallen into this trap at some point because it's
what was expected of us and it's where we saw
people achieving and solo success. So today, when I'm packing,
why it happens, how to spot it in yourself, and
most importantly, how to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, Li, So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Here's what we got. Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a
bit of a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because
I'm afraid everything will fall apart without.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Me three years.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I know, Well, let me just swish off. Hi. I'm
Ella and I'm a workaholic. I have no boundaries. I've
even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts. Email
addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
No, Tina, there's no good you switch off, girl.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I really love what I do.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But I've worked through every public holiday this year. It's
a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Yeah, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I talk to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too,
so there's a lot of people feeling it. I think
we should talk about where this trap actually starts, because
it usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it
built up really early, and it built up from something
really simple, like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You've picked that up already. You've done a few things.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better, and
being known for it. And when something's working, you really
double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became
(05:00):
quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that you
start to tell yourself if I work hard, then I'm rewarded,
and it's really like, what is.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Your definition of working hard? Right?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
That behavior became part of how I operated all the
time throughout my career, and you know as well as
I do that that is not sustainable. So the trip
is that the more that you become that person, the
harder it is to stop. Like people expect it, you
expected of yourself, and before you know it, working all
the time just becomes the norm. And it can work
for a while, and it did work for me for
(05:32):
quite a while, but there's always a point where you
hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Something shifts.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, something in
your personal life change now. Yes, generally you can workaholic
yourself into burnout right whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
You realize then that this way.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Of working is not working for me and it's not
going to get me to where I want to go next.
Do you relate with like being this workaholic?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Mumma Mea. Because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about its many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that, and now I'm twenty nine. And I
remember when I started, the only person I knew who
had like the big career that I wanted to achieve
(06:15):
was my mom. Like she was just like big boss energyah,
and she was a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
And I was like, that's what I have to do.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
And I remember I was doing like I started here
and everyone was like go home, go, Like it was crazy.
I was so young and I would be here to
like eight pm, doing like a meaningless task that I
didn't really need to do, and I just wanted to
do it and show that I could do it. And
I feel like it's generational, right, Like I feel like
a certain generation awarded that kind of work.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And that's kind of shifting.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Now now that like millennials and older gen zs are
becoming managers. It's more respectful to not have to rely
on people to show that they're literally.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Dying for the job.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, And I used to be so annoyed because I
would see young girls come into work working hard, but
not going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much
as I did when I first this job, and I
was like, why are they also achieving the same things
I achieved? And then I realized it's not because they're
not working hard, it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I think it's really interesting the point you rise around
the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my phases of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader, and there are a group of
people around me.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
We were a really high performing team, and.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit workaholics
or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's actually such a good point because I do think yeah,
exactly what you said. It's to your environment and even
like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle
as well, because I feel like the one point in
your life where you can switch off and not be
workaholic is when you're not at work.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, but then all.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
My friends and my closest friends are also in the
same line and work with me. Like, they're all journalists,
all workaholics. So even when we're like out of drinks,
out a dinner, it's like, what are you doing at work?
Speaker 4 (07:54):
What's going on the work? Everyone knows everyone.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
It's just one of those things where it can filter
into your life without you even realizing it.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that, you know,
people can rely on me. Therefore, I don't want to
let people down, and so I'll keep working to make
sure that I'm not letting anyone else down. I mentioned
to you earlier there was this tipping point for me
(08:23):
last year in this I think I've always been a
bit of a work colic like we always have really
good work ethic, and it's varied into stages of being
good work ethic, into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
But last year was.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right,
And so as I was coming through the second point
of realizing that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something
has got to change.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion and to
the point where you just like stare at the screen
and not like get anything, Douge, Like, oh, I just
don't even know where to start, so you almost like
crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big, big
sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(09:12):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, physically seeing.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, exactly, And so the physical part of them, like right,
at some point you have to listen to your body
and realize that it's trying to tell you something. And
so for me last year, that was the point where
I'm like, Okay, I need to find out more about
this and I need to figure out a better way
of working going forward. So that's when I started paying
attention to the signs, and honestly, they weren't really dramatic.
(09:38):
Like I mentioned one before was like just feeling really
physically tired. But it can also be small stuff that
leads into this, like identifying that you're in workholic mode.
So one you said before like must be on twenty
four to seven. Yeah, another one was mine. I was
very guilty of this, thinking about how you can free
out more time to work.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Yes, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, and do you know what when you clock in
your head, you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happens, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I've done that.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My big tell is when I wake up and the
first thing I do is check my cycle or check
my emails. Yep, because it usually is check Instagram, which
is it as unhealthy, Yes, but it's a social app
versus a work app. Exactly when I wake up and
I'm like, what happened on cycle when I was sleep, Like,
nothing's happened.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Everyone else was asleep as well.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
But it's just one of those things where I'm like, oh,
I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yes, that as one hundred percent of sign One of
my signs as well was that thinking TV was a
waste of time, Like why wouldn't you be doing something
productive with your time?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Actually set out loud, Oh my god, my mom would
love you, which.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
It's not right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Day every single day.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
There's like rest and recovery and training and things like
that built into it. That was a really good analogy
for me to like, go, Okay, something has to shift here. Yeah.
I also think, like it's worth touching on him that
(11:25):
there are points in your career where you do want
to or have to work hard and like you want
to dig in right. You know, there are times in
my career where I was working on certain projects and
really good opportunities, and I'm sure you'd like resonate with this.
And I did have to dig deep, but it wasn't
twenty four to seven and it wasn't every day a
week as well, And so that's not all we're talking
about here. We're saying, yes, work hard at points, but
(11:46):
don't make it habit.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I have a running joke here at Mama Mia and
I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's head
of content, and I've said I probably give about eighty
percent on myself at work, and they.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Were like, what, like should you be telling me this?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And I was like, I actually think it's quite true
because one hundred percent for me, like the way I
work is workaholic level. Yeah, Like, if you want me
at one hundred percent, just know I'm going to be
burnt out in two months.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Like I know when to clock off, I know when
to relax, I know when to take my break. I
know if I need to start a bit later, if
I finish a bit earlier, because I'm confident that I
am a good worker, and I'm confident that I work
hard and I have to do these little things and
in my head when I say eighty percent, it helps
me bring it back. Yes, And I don't mean it's
like if you aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Please work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
where you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job. Yeah, and when
I realized I could still get the same things out
of my job by like relaxing a little bit I
was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to
do that, Like I think I go into waves as well. Yes,
(13:29):
exactly what you said, Like, there will be times in
my career, which is right now because I've got like
a new job and I want to.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Be the best of the best at it, So.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
There will be times like now where I will probably
tap into that workaholicism. Yeah, but there will be times
where I know I have to pull it back because
I don't want to burn out.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
So I do think you.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Will go through waves in your career where you will
have to work a bit harder. Then sometimes you can
just like take a back seat, still work up, take
a bit of a back seat, and just be aware
of that. Like I think, once you're actually aware of
your pattern, then it makes it so much easier to control.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually,
i think I'm quite serious about.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That, Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like what
is this whiplash? Like one day em is like working
on this level and now she's working on this level.
They're aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yes we did.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
When you showed me this, I was like, I am
going to show everyone this. So the Department of Psychosocial
Science at the University of Bergen in Norway developed a
work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that characterize a workaholic.
And they came up with seven signs, and they said
that if you answer often or always to any of
(14:49):
these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies. And brace yourselves
because they are quite like simple things that I didn't
even realize were signs of a workaholic. So Number one,
you think of how you can free up more time
to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Yes. Number two, you spend much more time working than
initially intended.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Now enough, now please do Number three, you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor of
let anyone down.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yes, And I think this also comes in with the
generational thing, like what certain generations expect.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Like I have a friend.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Whose boss is always like so they manage a team,
and then their boss oversees like three.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Teams, okay, And with my friend's team, a lot of
them work from home.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Her boss comes in and she's like, everyone's working from
home again, what the hell? And she's like, I'm the
most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers, You've seen
how hard we work. And then he realized. He was like,
oh my god. Yeah, I don't have to see them
to know that they're working. Yes, correct, that's a really
good example. I hope he's listening.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
So number four, you have been told.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
By to cut down on work without listening to them. Oh,
that's a bit of a red flag to me.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert on the plane. On the plane and
my girlfriend's like, do you need to do that right now?
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up, because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Edited some content?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
It was good, but did it really need to have that'd.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Have been editing as you had the tailor swift comes out.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay,
good good, good guy.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Five.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
This one rings so true.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
To me, does it.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, if I go on a holiday, I make it
a point to delete my cyc an email and I
give my numbers to the people who need my number
in case there's an emergency.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I'm a journalist, I'm a podcaster. What kind of emergency
I know?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I think I don't think they need from me.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like are you the CEO of
a fourtune five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It is so like, No, if you're a surgeon, a
different story. Yeah, but not all of us are saving lives. No, Okay,
Number six, you deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise
because of your work.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Oh I mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Actually, are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So it's either yeah, yeah, even
this year, I'm like full pilates zen must must be
part of my day kind of situation to bring it back.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
It's hard though, especially the hobby stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like
why we you waste your time watching TV? Yeah, but
like why would we waste the time doing stuff that's
not work.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Number seven, you work so much that it has negatively
influenced your health. This is a big one. I was
burnt out. I can't remember what year it was. I
became so physically sick. I had to take three weeks
off work.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like
felt like the flu but no flu symptoms and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(18:50):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think are also much more aware of it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether that's a close friend
or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
You need to work it out, and your workplace should
be on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at
MoMA mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like,
go do your thing that's working yourself, where like be
aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like,
it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept
of burnout.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
There's still places where they're like, what do you mean.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I started my career in advertising and this is like city.
I know this is like fifteen years ago as well
when it started, and it was like glamorized burnout. It
was full work hard, play hard, and I loved it
and I was young.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But you can't keep doing that forever.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, next up, we're going to tell you how you
can break free of that and share some of our
tips around how we've moved out of it.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
Don't worry, it's not a doom and glamy No, it
is not gloom.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
It's awful of hope from here. So I thought we
could share what's helped us both. I want to share
what I've recently that's actually really helped me start to
break out of that trap and also almost out of
that mindset of I must work all the time and
(20:13):
keep it in check, because, like you've said, like you
can eb and flow through this, there are times when
you can work hard. We just won't want you to
end up becoming a workaholic and that being part of
your life. Right, I will say, I'm still a work
in progress. I really love what I do, and so
I do find it hard to switch off. You know,
I was even writing these notes quite late at night
for this episode.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Got that notification girl.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It was great for me, who checks my emails at
six thirty eight?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I thought, so keeping it in check and just being
much more wherever And like, I think the start of
any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization
that you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So a couple of things I did.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So when I was in burnout Burnout Part two last year,
I was like, something has to change.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach, performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(21:19):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(21:41):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
We've got a prop.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah her
book review was like this transfer my life. My book
review is the start and the end are a bit
woo woo for me.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
But the Four Agreements you do not give wo wo
out of everything.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
No, right, yeah, But I was like, I'm very like
open to learning and open minded. So I was like, hmm,
I had to push through the first couple of chapters.
But then when we got into the four Agreements around
like you know, what you should agree with yourself and
the kind of like work, life and life you want
to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement
being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally, Third,
(22:33):
don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And
it talks about those and the minds that you have
around each of those things.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off woo woo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You should go to where you haven't been before. Yeah,
that's true. Actually, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Right?
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yeah, go foraging?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yes, go foraging by this book that Opra service transformational.
So my third tip is balance, like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Does good look like?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done, what does.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Good look like?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And so then I've got my top three or four
things that have to do that's so good. And so
my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh, I hate that word.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I actual there's someone who's like such a perm I
just want to know what everyone's doing.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I know, I mean everyone's business.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, Like I'll just find out this one more thing boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. It's like when you were saying before,
like someone told me I can't work, But at some
point you realize that work is more of a marathon,
not a sprint, and if we treat it like a sprint, they.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, you enjoy it too, like you should be able
to enjoy work. And so if you think about it
that way, then the boundaries become why do I need
these boundaries? Like? Do I need them so my work
can be more sustainable? Or I can sustain this high
level performance for a while? Do I need them because
I want to dedicate some time to other areas in
(24:19):
my life as well?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Life exercise? That's also important?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
And so figure out why it's important for you, because
if you don't do that top and tail of why,
like why with the coach and then why should I
set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any
kind of change.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Ah Okay, I do have a few tips that worked
for me personally, So are.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
They woo woo?
Speaker 4 (24:39):
They're not woo wo.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Okay, So I feel like, if you're listening, definitely take
on Lisa's tips, use mine as a grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Let's go take your pick.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I mean
is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot of
my closest friends are also industry friends who know about
work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in your
life who are the complete opposite and hang out with
them a lot.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
My person I go to when I feel.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Like I'm working a lot and a lot and a lot,
and it's like kind of taking out my whole life
is my nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your
nana and be on your phone.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
That's so rude.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And she has no idea about anything. So we're just
talking about the garden. We're talking about what she watched
on Netflix lately. We're talking about new Spice she found.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Excellent, Yep, that work.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook,
and she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
And the other tip is fake holidays.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
So what I mean by this you knowing you're a
workaholic is really hard. Like even like what I do
when I go on holidays or when I'm off on
the weekend, I delete my email and my Slack from
my phone. Okay, Still I will have these little times
where I'll be on the toilet or no one's around me,
and I'll like quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer,
(25:59):
check something. What I do in some situations is like,
say it's a weekend, I tell work that I'm going
to be away in a place where there's no reception.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So, And it's not just telling them as in like
don't message me, but it's like telling yourself like yes,
you've given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and
not check your phone over the weekend because people will
definitely not message you. Now, it's like giving you like
it's fine, people aren't going to message you. Firstly, they
won't message you on the weekend, but now they definitely
won't because you told them me I have no reception exactly.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Like the stories we tell ourselves as well, and how
much we you're convinced you can stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
If it works, do it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you feel like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead. Are phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh,
quickly check your computer.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I try to find hobbies where you physically can't do that.
And one of mine is I used to play piano
and as younger and I've started taking it up again.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
One plank piano. You actually can't check your phone when
you're playing piano. It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And then if you have those like work a whole
tendencies where you just want to achieve something and be
good at it, just make finishing that piano piece that thing, yes,
and just tell yourself that if I finish this, if
I do that, then that's something I've achieved. And then
you haven't thought about work for like an hour.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it, Like.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's so nice, like it's the one thing that I
can do where like you physically can't think about anything
else because then your stuff it up exactly.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
It's just so nice.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yes, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Think if we can give everyone, like one useful thing
to go away from this with is if you are
feeling like you're part of some of these workaholic tendencies
are calling out to you and the list of you
this year with us before figure out why, Yeah, talk
to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(28:08):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
So good.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Bierz.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I hoped you learned a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
We have a handful of more episodes that we'll be
dropping into your podcast feed over the next few weeks,
so please stay tuned and if you know someone who
would find this particular biz episode useful or you know
that they'll love it.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
Please pass it on to them. You can send them
the link, or you can just tell them about it
over drinks.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Don't forget, We're still posting over on our Instagram. We
are at Biz by Mom and Mia. Bizz is produced
by Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges and I.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Will see you next time. Bye, Mamma.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
this podcast is recorded on
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