October 20, 2025 • 23 mins
Going from mate to manager can get weird, fast. One day you're in the group chat laughing with your colleagues, the next day they might be laughing at you behind your back. This week, we're tackling one of the trickiest workplace transitions: becoming the boss of your former teammates. We dig into why this shift feels so bloody awkward (spoiler: it's not just you), how to navigate the immediate identity crisis when suddenly nobody wants to gossip with you anymore, and the art of setting expectations without turning into a micromanager overnight.
Plus, we reveal the coaching trick that gets people to solve their own problems, why letting your team do "B plus work" is actually good leadership, and when to recognise that management might not be for you - and that's completely okay.
What you'll learn:
- The Reset Conversation: How to acknowledge the shift without making it weird
- The B Plus Work Philosophy: Why perfectionist managers fail their teams
- The Question Technique: The coaching trick that creates ownership instead of dependency
- The Identity Shift Reality: Why your value isn't in doing the job anymore, it's in helping others do it well
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
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HOSTS: Lisa Lie and Em Vernem
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Tina Matolov
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast. Hello and welcome
to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm M Vernon and
today we're bringing back an episode that tackles something almost
everyone faces, going from mate to manager. With end of
year promotions and restructures happening everywhere right now. This episode
(00:27):
is perfectly timed. You know that awkward moment when one
day you're in the group chat laughing with your colleagues
and the next day might be laughing at you behind
your back. I personally have been there myself. This episode
is packed with practical advice on navigating that insane identity crisis,
setting expectations without micromanaging, and why letting your team do
B plus work is actually good leadership. If you're stepping
(00:50):
into leadership now or know someone who is, this episode
will help. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to
BIZ Your Work Live Sorted.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm M Vernon and I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh she's just so accomplished.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Look at that go oh all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Now, today we're talking about something that sounds so simple
that is actually really tricky, and it's becoming the manager
of your old team.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
It's one of those moments where like one day you're
just laughing with the girls, laughing with your colleagues, and
the next day they might be laughing at you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Oh yeah, it's always awkward and like you can't escape it, right,
but you can't make it a bit easier because the
kicker is that a lot of people get promoted because
they were good at their job, but it doesn't mean
they're always ready to lead.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So this is for anyone who is either about to
go into a leadership position or has just found themselves
in the leadership position and thought, why is this so
bloody hard? In this episode, we are going to unpack
why the transition can feel so bumpy, how to set
expectations without feeling like you're becoming a micromanager, and why
asking good questions it's way more useful than pretending to
(02:09):
have all of the answers.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Being a great team member and being a great leader
are too totally different skill sets, and we don't talk
enough about how awkud it can be. It's a weird phase.
I think we've both been there, have we am? So
we'll get into what actually helps.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So when you step into leadership, you don't just get
a fancy title and a brand new job and you
get to be the boss of everyone. It can also
immediately shift the way people perceive you. So what we
did is we asked you when you made the move
from I guess employee to leadership, what happened, and this
is exactly what you had to say.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My biggest mistake was trying to get everyone of you,
my friend. I'd give fearback, like, hey, maybe we could
try these, maybe we could try that, And honestly, it
took ages for people to actually take me seriously.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh been there?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh my god, this hurts my soul.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
As you performance manage my work. Bestie, who had also
applied for my job, we used to laugh about how
seriously managers took everything, And now I could see her
eyes rolling at me in meetings. I knew she was
probably making fun of how it'd become one of them,
but that friendship never really recovered.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh no, wow, this is hard. I feel like this
is one of those rare instances, but it does happen.
The group chat changed over night.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Suddenly I wasn't getting the funny memes anymore, and I
realized it'd probably started a new one without me.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
That's tie a bit. Ah, oh, yeah, you feel so
left out.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I'll send you a meme.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So are you okay?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
I used to be the person that knew all the
office gossip, and now nobody can come to me to
gossip anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
It feels like the social dynamic has completely shifted.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
This one hurts because I am a grade A gossiper,
So if that was taken from me, I don't know
who i'd be.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, it's really hard because it's how we bond and
how we connected with each other as well.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So I think from what we just heard from these
lovely people, I feel like the first thing we need
to address is the immediate identity shift you get when
you become a manager.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
The number one thing I hear from leaders is that
no one tells you how to do this, Like you
were always looking at your boss or your manage your going.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I could totally do that right. Yeah, when you step
into that role, you're like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's so true. I actually have a story where when
I became a leader for the first time, like, no
one really tells you about the little things, like they
tell you about your new JD and what you have
to do and the expectations from you, but they don't
tell you about all the kind of personal stuff. And
I remember so specifically one instance where all the meeting
rooms were glass so you could see into them, and
(04:38):
my team was in the meeting room and I was
walking into the meeting and they were all giggling and
laughing and having a good time, and the minute I
stepped in, they just went quiet.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Was it about me?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I didn't think it was about me, but it just
felt like I was in that position where I was like, oh,
I can't banter with the girls anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, it was really hard, isn't it. It's a total
shift that you have to make. And I think the
more that you know about it beforehand, the better that
transition can be as you go into it.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So what do we have to do to actually help
that transition?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Well, you don't want to be stuck in that awkward
divide right of being like wanting to be the cool,
approachable boss, but then also flipping one day the next
and you know, being the micromanager and having to make
those hard decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That's like whiplash for your team.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So something I like to do and encourage, like every
new manager to do is have this kind of reset combo.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
That's not about laying down the law. That's really awkward,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
It's more about acknowledging that things have changed and inviting
your team into that shift with you, because if you
don't acknowledge the change, it becomes almost like the elephant
in the room. Yes, it's like, well the n's got
a boss lady pants on now, like what are we
doing today? Or m's my best friend the next day.
So in order to do that, it might sound something like, hey,
(05:53):
we've worked side by side before and now I'm stepping
into a new role. I know that can feel a
bit different, and I want us to figure out how
to make this work together. I love that even opening
with that, it puts them at e That puts you
at ease. Rather than just pretending the whole time that
you've got your shit together. The other thing you can
do is just go, we're not pretending that the past
didn't happen like we were team members, but we're also
(06:16):
not stuck there, So you might want to just grab
a one on one with them, even just fifteen to
twenty minutes, to say like, hey, here's what's changing, here's
what I want to keep the same, and what do
you need from me now too as your manager?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, that's so good because it also you're bringing them
into the conversation, like it's not just you setting the agenda,
setting the rules, but also welcoming them in because more
often than not, you will have had history as co
workers and you have built up and they probably know
so much about you, and you know so much about them,
like who you hate in the company, who you love
in the company. Yeah, and then you just suddenly have
(06:49):
to like have this new role, which brings us to
our next point, which is, now that you suddenly become
a leader, how do you actually set expectations as a leader,
Because I feel like you could go the two extremes
where you could still try to be that friend to
that person and want a gossip and do all the stuff,
or you could turn into a full micromanager and suddenly
have this whole new personality that you're bringing to the
(07:10):
front table, like scaring everyone off essentially.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And so that first step that we talked about, right,
you have to name that shift first, because if you
go into any of these other things that are about
to talk about next and you haven't named the shift,
it all feels really forced. And people can't just be
expected to fill in the blanks, right, Yeah, So you've
got to get something people really solid to work with
in that reset conbo that you can both refer back to.
And it doesn't have to be super formal perfect, but
(07:35):
just really clear. Clarity goes a long way in building trust.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So once we have that and you're in the role,
you're gonna want to set those expectations. And this is
the part where people really struggle because they go, I
don't want to be seen as forceful or like a micromanager,
and I want to be nice and everything, but in
not being clear, that's when things get muddy. So that's
where a lot of people then get tripped up. And
I hear this from people every week. They go, oh,
(08:00):
I've got to give this person feedback. It's going to
be so hard, And I'm like, did you tell them
what you wanted in the first place, like not really,
I'm like, well, if you did, you probably wouldn't be
having to give feedback. So sending expectations isn't about controlling people.
It's more about giving them a target they can actually hit.
So he's a couple of good one liners for you.
Here's what good looks like in this project, and here's
(08:23):
how I'll support you to get there, or something like
I don't expect you to read my mind. Let's be
really clear on who's doing what and by when. Yeah,
so doesn't feel icky, right, and like one of the
most helpful things you can do as a new manager
is talk about your working style. And we've talked about
this in the past, m like what you value, what
frustrates you, how you communicate, and then share it with
(08:45):
each other. Because you might've been working alongside each other
and never had a need to share those things. That's
so true now that you're their manager, you really do.
And then you've got something that is an anchor point.
I guess to refer back to it. That's not personal,
but it's just part of how we agreed to work together.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And I have a question. So when you enter this
leadership position and you set expectations and stuff like that.
Do you have to change your mindset on how you
see the people you are now managing? Because I feel
like it's so hard to go from these could be
my best friends, especially that lovely person who said that
her friendship had never been the same. Is just just
(09:25):
one of those side effects that come with being a leader.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, well, I guess the biggest shift is, and we're
talking about this with three identity shift, right, was that
normally before you get promoted, you're really good at doing
a certain thing, and then you get promoted and you're not.
Your role is not to do that thing anymore. Your
role is to help the people in your team be
really good. And so, yeah, you're right. It is a
total mindset shift around like what success looks like in
(09:49):
that role and what your part in that is.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I feel like, oh, it just needs so much therapy
because I would be like, it'll feel like you are
a completely new person, that you're bringing a new self
to your work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I wish I knew this stuff when I went into
be a mana because I wouldn't have caused pain and
heartache for myself. And you know, Belinda will Marcus, we
can name them all if you want. That had to
experience me as a first time manager for the first
two years and not knowing this stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
What do you feel like your biggest mistake was when
you became a leader for the first time.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Or I needed to talk about and think about a
lot about letting go because I was talking about you
get really good at doing a certain job and then
you could get promoted.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So one of the things that I would do is
try to stay across everything. And I'm talking like I
would reformat their PowerPoint docs at like ten o'clock at nights.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm like, not quite right, that's I'll just fix this right.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And that is like a classic case to like lead
you to either burnout or them not trusting you as well,
or just going, well, I won't do it because I
know you're going to do it anyway. Yeah, that was
one of the biggest ones. I was going, I know
how to do this, I'll just do it myself. Was
ad be so much quicker. That is one of the
biggest things I hear coming out of new manager's mouth,
And it was definitely one of the biggest mistakes I made.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh yeah, I feel like I relate so much to that,
and I feel like that comes into that episode exactly
what you're saying when we're talking about our different styles
of working, which will link in the show notes if
you haven't listened to already. But I remember when I
first became the first and only time I became a manager.
I remember my mum had a dinner with me the
(11:26):
day before and she just told me anyone can be
a manager, but not everyone can be a leader, and
you need to be a leader. And that hit really hard.
And I think bringing back to the point of that
identity shift, I wasn't willing to have that identity shift,
and I really missed my friends. And more than that,
I knew what it was like to not have a
(11:47):
good manager, and I didn't want to be that for
someone else. The thing I would say is that there
are so many roles and you can still elevate your
career without having to take a leadership or management position
like it is Carter, like a lot of companies traditionally
do want you to keep going. And we have talked
about before how management can be a full time job
alongside your other full time job. And I found out
(12:09):
about this about myself, like a year into being a
manager that it actually wasn't right for me, and I
didn't want to not be the right manager for someone,
and I didn't want to jeopardize someone's career because of
how I approached management. And it did. I wouldn't say
it took a hit to my career, but it definitely
slowed down the pace. But I think it was the
best decision is to not be a manager one percent.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And this is why when we were talking about in
that episode around getting promoted, you have to actually think
about do I want this role and am I suited
to this role like my strength sited to this role,
or am I going for it just because it seems
like the most obvious choice in front of me and
for so many people, the manager role is the most
obvious choice, and it has been when we followed traditional
(12:51):
career paths. I don't like traditional career paths. We can
go into a whole discussion about that, but you're right
being a manager of something that you need to accept
because there is a lot of different skills that come
with it, and they're great skills and it's really enjoyable
as well. Like some of my most awarding years through
my career so far have been managing people.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When I actually started to hit my stride.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Oh so good, And we're great friends now and you know,
mentors and help each other.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
You have to accept it and want it as well.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
The trap we were talking about before, you know, you're
asking about one of the mistakes I made is that
you know, if you're still doing all the work and
trying to lead, you're not actually leading. And that's what
you were saying, like you're just doing two jobs badly. Yeah,
no one wants to do that. You don't want that
for yourself, and your team certainly doesn't want that. So
letting go means picking up all these different skills like delegation,
(13:40):
feedback coaching, actually sitting with the discomfort of not having
your fingerprints on every detail, and that was something I
certainly had to let go of.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
The PowerPoint docks.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It also looks like as well, being okay with like
B plus work for.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
A while, Oh what's B plus work? Well, like your
team's are going to do it as well as you.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Right, you got promoted because you're really good at doing
a certain thing.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You're really good at those bloody PowerPoint docks.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, they're not going to be as good and that's okay,
Like that's B plus work where you go, Okay, it's.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Not quite how I would do it.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And they're learning, and my role is to help them
learn and to get better at it along the way.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You have to let them do the B plus one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah you do.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I mean, because you've got to build that capability in
your team and come to realize. And I can't believe
it took me two years to realize, like this poor team,
your value isn't in knowing how to do the job,
it's in helping other people learn how to do it well.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So true, that's the role of the manager.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Ah, that's so good. And you just cemented the idea
that I definitely do not want to be a manager,
but I do think exactly what you said. It's such
a stark difference between being just a manager and a leader,
and a leader does take a lot of more responsibility.
And if you are a good leader, you will have
a team of people who want to be your friends,
(14:52):
who want to see you outside of work. If you
guys go into different career parts, and that's when you
know that you have been successful in your role. But
after the break we are tackling the next big challenge,
which is learning to let go to your team can
actually grow. So I think, similar to what we just
(15:19):
discussed before the break, one of the hardest things about
moving into a manager position is, like what you said, Lisa,
like letting your team do the B plus work. So
how do you actually let go of everything so you
can just lead.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
You have to learn to ask better questions. So rather
than jump in and be a fixer all the time, yeah,
which all that does is create this cycle of reliance
of your team on you. So think about if we're
working together in a team and to deliver certain projects,
and every time you did something I was like, oh,
don't worry, I'll just fix up that last part. Yeah,
(15:52):
you're just gonna be like that's cool, I'm gonna go
to lunch now you do it right? Yeah right, that
doesn't work. So you've got to what we're stepping you
through here is like having that reset conversation, being really
clear on those expectations who is doing what and when,
and then rather than jumping into fix like you don't
have to have all the answers, you can learn to
(16:13):
ask better questions. Like what so a couple of really
powerful questions that I like that I always come back to.
You know, some of my backgrounds in coaching, and it
totally shifted my approach as a manager once I learned
these skills. So a couple of questions would be what's
the real challenge if we am.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Or what else could be true? This is a great one.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
If you're coming up with someone in your team who's
always making assumptions around other people, you can ask them
what else could be true and for a second they
just step outside of like, oh, well, I was just
gonna blame Sophie for not delivering it.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What else could actually be going on?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
The other one that I really like from an expectation
point of view is like what support do you need
from me? Is it coaching, clarity or just getting out
of the way. Yeah, So often we assume that, like
again the assumptions, We assume that you want me to
fix this. No, not necessarily, I just want to talk
to like vents and get off my chest.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
That also applies in real life, like if a friend
comes up to you with the problem, my go to
is like, do you want advice or do you want.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Me to listen.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yes, that's a great question, right, and you can use
that as a manager. Now, my other favorite question has
two parts. It's a little bit of a trick question.
So say you're coming to me, and this happens all
the time with if you're a manager, people will come
up to you and go, oh, I'm having trouble with blah.
Can you just you know this is going on? Can
you fix it? So you pause for a second. You're
(17:36):
going to go would you like some advice from me?
And they're going to go yeah, because that's obviously what
I'm telling you, And then you stop for a second.
And this is really hard to do, but once you
do it, it's good. And I will say to you,
what do you think I'd say em oh, and so
I'm not giving the answer, and then they go, oh,
(17:57):
I think you'd say blah, or I could try blah,
or actually maybe you'd say blah. I'm like, well, are
those options.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
That you could take?
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Like, yeah, great, I haven't done anything apart from asking
questions to guide.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You're thinking, wait, you've actually done that before.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It works all the time, even with people who know
that I'm about to ask them that, and then they
laugh at me and they go, I know what you're
doing here. I'm like, that's okay, but can you answer
the question? Well you would say blah. And that is
not to say that I think I have all the answers, right.
What I'm trying to do is instead of band aiding everything,
every single problem, because sometimes you feel like you're doing
(18:30):
that as a manager, and you're putting all these band
aids on a gaping wound, You're going going a pause
for a minute. I'm gonna ask you a question and
see if you have the answer, because I believe that
you do have the answers because you're a fully fledged adult,
and off you go. Yeah, And then I've got so
much ownership. We love our own answers. Oh that is
so smart ownership. We're gonna do something about that, right.
That's the power of good questions. Like through this coaching training,
(18:51):
I learned it's all about shifting how the conversation goes
because when you ask the right question, people don't just
look to you for the answers. They start finding their
own answers. And that is like the cherry on top.
Oh my god, that is so good.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Maybe I should go back and management just so I
can tell people that, what do you think my answer
is going to be asking questions?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Just walk frout asking questions all day.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Oh god, that is so good when we talk about
questions there that is less about carrying everyone all the time,
because I think you know, so many people see managers
that are struggling and they're moving into this role and
they feel overwhelmed or overworked. Being a manager is not
about carrying everyone back to your mindset ship right. This
is more about creating space for them to step up,
(19:34):
help them do some B plus work for a while
that eventually becomes a plus work and they're going to
remember you as that great manager that you had in
your career that really help them learn, improve, grow, get
the next role.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
How good is that?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's so good and it's so true. I also wanted
to say that I learned quite quickly that when you
become a manager and leader, and I have said that
on the podcast before about a manager, but when you
become in that like leadership role, you soon realize that
the people you are leading think about you way more
than you think about them, Like they will be playing
(20:09):
like conversations in their heads. They will be like discussing
over drinks with their friends on how they approach a
promotion for you, and just remember that every time they
approach you that it does take a lot. Like not everyone,
but for me personally, it takes a lot for me
to actually go to my manager for a problem or
an issue or help with something, like it's something that
would be building in my head for like weeks and
(20:31):
weeks and weeks because managers, as we said before, they
don't just manage, but they also still have to do
the other job. So while they're doing that, they're like
completely not thinking about you, whilst you're still like ruminating,
going I wonder what you'll think about this, or watch
you think with me when I did this and stuff.
So just like take a moment whenever you get approached
by your colleagues, just take a moment and just like
(20:52):
remember that they have probably dissected every way this conversation
could go before they've started talking to you.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I love it you brought that up in because people
just want time with their manager. Yeah, because I say
that person is the one that is like Cardie for them,
supporting them, et cetera, like make space for them.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's all they want to be heard.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
They just want to be bad.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Just hear me, Just let me know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Before we wrap up, we have to do a traditional out,
which is one useful thing, one useful thing at least,
So you always take this one because you always have
the useful thing.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You could have the useful thing next time. You've got
a lot of useful things you've shared today. So if
you're in a leadership role and you've been feeling unsure,
here's our one useful thing today that we want you
to remember. You don't need to have all the answers,
but you do need to be able to start a
good conversation. So try asking your team things like what
does support look like from me right now? And what's
(21:55):
one thing we could do differently to make this work better? Yeah,
if you had just asked that one question, what's one
thing we could do differently to make this work better?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
How good is that? Right?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like, you're building trust straight away. You're making it a
two way dialogue. It's not me going this is how
it's going to work. In these questions do two things.
They show you that you're listening, and they really open
the door to this clarity without you having to control
everything because we've got to let go of some control here.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
One hundred percent. I feel like just remembering that one
like initial meeting that you said of like how can
we work together? That just sets you up for the
rest of your leadership journey, Like everything will just flow
into a place after that.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
One undred percent. It's your anchor.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
My god, good luck to all the new managers. Yes,
so good.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Let's get them out of that I have to know
everything trap because we all go through that. Yeah, please
don't let it last for two years like I did.
Hopefully can listen to this episode and then go, Okay,
I'm gonna change it tomorrow and then you can show
up and just listen, clarify and actually really support each
other and have a good time doing it too.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, leadership is fun. Enjoy it. Thank you so much
for listening to this episodpisode of Bierz. I hoped you
learned a lot of things. We have a handful of
more episodes that we'll be dropping into your podcast feed
over the next few weeks, so please stay tuned. And
if you know someone who would find this particular biz
(23:17):
episode useful or you know that they'll love it, Please
pass it on to them. You can send them the link,
or you can just tell them about it over drinks.
Don't forget, We're still posting over on our Instagram. We
are at Biz by Mama Mia. Biz is produced by
Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges and I
will see you next time.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast. Hello and welcome
to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm M Vernon and
today we're bringing back an episode that tackles something almost
everyone faces, going from mate to manager. With end of
year promotions and restructures happening everywhere right now. This episode
(00:27):
is perfectly timed. You know that awkward moment when one
day you're in the group chat laughing with your colleagues
and the next day might be laughing at you behind
your back. I personally have been there myself. This episode
is packed with practical advice on navigating that insane identity crisis,
setting expectations without micromanaging, and why letting your team do
B plus work is actually good leadership. If you're stepping
(00:50):
into leadership now or know someone who is, this episode
will help. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to
BIZ Your Work Live Sorted.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm M Vernon and I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh she's just so accomplished.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Look at that go oh all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Now, today we're talking about something that sounds so simple
that is actually really tricky, and it's becoming the manager
of your old team.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
It's one of those moments where like one day you're
just laughing with the girls, laughing with your colleagues, and
the next day they might be laughing at you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Oh yeah, it's always awkward and like you can't escape it, right,
but you can't make it a bit easier because the
kicker is that a lot of people get promoted because
they were good at their job, but it doesn't mean
they're always ready to lead.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
So this is for anyone who is either about to
go into a leadership position or has just found themselves
in the leadership position and thought, why is this so
bloody hard? In this episode, we are going to unpack
why the transition can feel so bumpy, how to set
expectations without feeling like you're becoming a micromanager, and why
asking good questions it's way more useful than pretending to
(02:09):
have all of the answers.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Being a great team member and being a great leader
are too totally different skill sets, and we don't talk
enough about how awkud it can be. It's a weird phase.
I think we've both been there, have we am? So
we'll get into what actually helps.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So when you step into leadership, you don't just get
a fancy title and a brand new job and you
get to be the boss of everyone. It can also
immediately shift the way people perceive you. So what we
did is we asked you when you made the move
from I guess employee to leadership, what happened, and this
is exactly what you had to say.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
My biggest mistake was trying to get everyone of you,
my friend. I'd give fearback, like, hey, maybe we could
try these, maybe we could try that, And honestly, it
took ages for people to actually take me seriously.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh been there?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh my god, this hurts my soul.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
As you performance manage my work. Bestie, who had also
applied for my job, we used to laugh about how
seriously managers took everything, And now I could see her
eyes rolling at me in meetings. I knew she was
probably making fun of how it'd become one of them,
but that friendship never really recovered.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh no, wow, this is hard. I feel like this
is one of those rare instances, but it does happen.
The group chat changed over night.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Suddenly I wasn't getting the funny memes anymore, and I
realized it'd probably started a new one without me.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
That's tie a bit. Ah, oh, yeah, you feel so
left out.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I'll send you a meme.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So are you okay?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
I used to be the person that knew all the
office gossip, and now nobody can come to me to
gossip anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
It feels like the social dynamic has completely shifted.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
This one hurts because I am a grade A gossiper,
So if that was taken from me, I don't know
who i'd be.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, it's really hard because it's how we bond and
how we connected with each other as well.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So I think from what we just heard from these
lovely people, I feel like the first thing we need
to address is the immediate identity shift you get when
you become a manager.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
The number one thing I hear from leaders is that
no one tells you how to do this, Like you
were always looking at your boss or your manage your going.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I could totally do that right. Yeah, when you step
into that role, you're like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's so true. I actually have a story where when
I became a leader for the first time, like, no
one really tells you about the little things, like they
tell you about your new JD and what you have
to do and the expectations from you, but they don't
tell you about all the kind of personal stuff. And
I remember so specifically one instance where all the meeting
rooms were glass so you could see into them, and
(04:38):
my team was in the meeting room and I was
walking into the meeting and they were all giggling and
laughing and having a good time, and the minute I
stepped in, they just went quiet.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Was it about me?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I didn't think it was about me, but it just
felt like I was in that position where I was like, oh,
I can't banter with the girls anymore.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, it was really hard, isn't it. It's a total
shift that you have to make. And I think the
more that you know about it beforehand, the better that
transition can be as you go into it.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So what do we have to do to actually help
that transition?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Well, you don't want to be stuck in that awkward
divide right of being like wanting to be the cool,
approachable boss, but then also flipping one day the next
and you know, being the micromanager and having to make
those hard decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
That's like whiplash for your team.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So something I like to do and encourage, like every
new manager to do is have this kind of reset combo.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
That's not about laying down the law. That's really awkward,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
It's more about acknowledging that things have changed and inviting
your team into that shift with you, because if you
don't acknowledge the change, it becomes almost like the elephant
in the room. Yes, it's like, well the n's got
a boss lady pants on now, like what are we
doing today? Or m's my best friend the next day.
So in order to do that, it might sound something like, hey,
(05:53):
we've worked side by side before and now I'm stepping
into a new role. I know that can feel a
bit different, and I want us to figure out how
to make this work together. I love that even opening
with that, it puts them at e That puts you
at ease. Rather than just pretending the whole time that
you've got your shit together. The other thing you can
do is just go, we're not pretending that the past
didn't happen like we were team members, but we're also
(06:16):
not stuck there, So you might want to just grab
a one on one with them, even just fifteen to
twenty minutes, to say like, hey, here's what's changing, here's
what I want to keep the same, and what do
you need from me now too as your manager?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, that's so good because it also you're bringing them
into the conversation, like it's not just you setting the agenda,
setting the rules, but also welcoming them in because more
often than not, you will have had history as co
workers and you have built up and they probably know
so much about you, and you know so much about them,
like who you hate in the company, who you love
in the company. Yeah, and then you just suddenly have
(06:49):
to like have this new role, which brings us to
our next point, which is, now that you suddenly become
a leader, how do you actually set expectations as a leader,
Because I feel like you could go the two extremes
where you could still try to be that friend to
that person and want a gossip and do all the stuff,
or you could turn into a full micromanager and suddenly
have this whole new personality that you're bringing to the
(07:10):
front table, like scaring everyone off essentially.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And so that first step that we talked about, right,
you have to name that shift first, because if you
go into any of these other things that are about
to talk about next and you haven't named the shift,
it all feels really forced. And people can't just be
expected to fill in the blanks, right, Yeah, So you've
got to get something people really solid to work with
in that reset conbo that you can both refer back to.
And it doesn't have to be super formal perfect, but
(07:35):
just really clear. Clarity goes a long way in building trust.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So once we have that and you're in the role,
you're gonna want to set those expectations. And this is
the part where people really struggle because they go, I
don't want to be seen as forceful or like a micromanager,
and I want to be nice and everything, but in
not being clear, that's when things get muddy. So that's
where a lot of people then get tripped up. And
I hear this from people every week. They go, oh,
(08:00):
I've got to give this person feedback. It's going to
be so hard, And I'm like, did you tell them
what you wanted in the first place, like not really,
I'm like, well, if you did, you probably wouldn't be
having to give feedback. So sending expectations isn't about controlling people.
It's more about giving them a target they can actually hit.
So he's a couple of good one liners for you.
Here's what good looks like in this project, and here's
(08:23):
how I'll support you to get there, or something like
I don't expect you to read my mind. Let's be
really clear on who's doing what and by when. Yeah,
so doesn't feel icky, right, and like one of the
most helpful things you can do as a new manager
is talk about your working style. And we've talked about
this in the past, m like what you value, what
frustrates you, how you communicate, and then share it with
(08:45):
each other. Because you might've been working alongside each other
and never had a need to share those things. That's
so true now that you're their manager, you really do.
And then you've got something that is an anchor point.
I guess to refer back to it. That's not personal,
but it's just part of how we agreed to work together.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And I have a question. So when you enter this
leadership position and you set expectations and stuff like that.
Do you have to change your mindset on how you
see the people you are now managing? Because I feel
like it's so hard to go from these could be
my best friends, especially that lovely person who said that
her friendship had never been the same. Is just just
(09:25):
one of those side effects that come with being a leader.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, well, I guess the biggest shift is, and we're
talking about this with three identity shift, right, was that
normally before you get promoted, you're really good at doing
a certain thing, and then you get promoted and you're not.
Your role is not to do that thing anymore. Your
role is to help the people in your team be
really good. And so, yeah, you're right. It is a
total mindset shift around like what success looks like in
(09:49):
that role and what your part in that is.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I feel like, oh, it just needs so much therapy
because I would be like, it'll feel like you are
a completely new person, that you're bringing a new self
to your work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I wish I knew this stuff when I went into
be a mana because I wouldn't have caused pain and
heartache for myself. And you know, Belinda will Marcus, we
can name them all if you want. That had to
experience me as a first time manager for the first
two years and not knowing this stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
What do you feel like your biggest mistake was when
you became a leader for the first time.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Or I needed to talk about and think about a
lot about letting go because I was talking about you
get really good at doing a certain job and then
you could get promoted.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So one of the things that I would do is
try to stay across everything. And I'm talking like I
would reformat their PowerPoint docs at like ten o'clock at nights.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm like, not quite right, that's I'll just fix this right.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And that is like a classic case to like lead
you to either burnout or them not trusting you as well,
or just going, well, I won't do it because I
know you're going to do it anyway. Yeah, that was
one of the biggest ones. I was going, I know
how to do this, I'll just do it myself. Was
ad be so much quicker. That is one of the
biggest things I hear coming out of new manager's mouth,
And it was definitely one of the biggest mistakes I made.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Oh yeah, I feel like I relate so much to that,
and I feel like that comes into that episode exactly
what you're saying when we're talking about our different styles
of working, which will link in the show notes if
you haven't listened to already. But I remember when I
first became the first and only time I became a manager.
I remember my mum had a dinner with me the
(11:26):
day before and she just told me anyone can be
a manager, but not everyone can be a leader, and
you need to be a leader. And that hit really hard.
And I think bringing back to the point of that
identity shift, I wasn't willing to have that identity shift,
and I really missed my friends. And more than that,
I knew what it was like to not have a
(11:47):
good manager, and I didn't want to be that for
someone else. The thing I would say is that there
are so many roles and you can still elevate your
career without having to take a leadership or management position
like it is Carter, like a lot of companies traditionally
do want you to keep going. And we have talked
about before how management can be a full time job
alongside your other full time job. And I found out
(12:09):
about this about myself, like a year into being a
manager that it actually wasn't right for me, and I
didn't want to not be the right manager for someone,
and I didn't want to jeopardize someone's career because of
how I approached management. And it did. I wouldn't say
it took a hit to my career, but it definitely
slowed down the pace. But I think it was the
best decision is to not be a manager one percent.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And this is why when we were talking about in
that episode around getting promoted, you have to actually think
about do I want this role and am I suited
to this role like my strength sited to this role,
or am I going for it just because it seems
like the most obvious choice in front of me and
for so many people, the manager role is the most
obvious choice, and it has been when we followed traditional
(12:51):
career paths. I don't like traditional career paths. We can
go into a whole discussion about that, but you're right
being a manager of something that you need to accept
because there is a lot of different skills that come
with it, and they're great skills and it's really enjoyable
as well. Like some of my most awarding years through
my career so far have been managing people.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When I actually started to hit my stride.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Oh so good, And we're great friends now and you know,
mentors and help each other.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
You have to accept it and want it as well.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
The trap we were talking about before, you know, you're
asking about one of the mistakes I made is that
you know, if you're still doing all the work and
trying to lead, you're not actually leading. And that's what
you were saying, like you're just doing two jobs badly. Yeah,
no one wants to do that. You don't want that
for yourself, and your team certainly doesn't want that. So
letting go means picking up all these different skills like delegation,
(13:40):
feedback coaching, actually sitting with the discomfort of not having
your fingerprints on every detail, and that was something I
certainly had to let go of.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
The PowerPoint docks.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It also looks like as well, being okay with like
B plus work for.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
A while, Oh what's B plus work? Well, like your
team's are going to do it as well as you.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Right, you got promoted because you're really good at doing
a certain thing.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You're really good at those bloody PowerPoint docks.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, they're not going to be as good and that's okay,
Like that's B plus work where you go, Okay, it's.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Not quite how I would do it.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And they're learning, and my role is to help them
learn and to get better at it along the way.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You have to let them do the B plus one.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah you do.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I mean, because you've got to build that capability in
your team and come to realize. And I can't believe
it took me two years to realize, like this poor team,
your value isn't in knowing how to do the job,
it's in helping other people learn how to do it well.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So true, that's the role of the manager.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Ah, that's so good. And you just cemented the idea
that I definitely do not want to be a manager,
but I do think exactly what you said. It's such
a stark difference between being just a manager and a leader,
and a leader does take a lot of more responsibility.
And if you are a good leader, you will have
a team of people who want to be your friends,
(14:52):
who want to see you outside of work. If you
guys go into different career parts, and that's when you
know that you have been successful in your role. But
after the break we are tackling the next big challenge,
which is learning to let go to your team can
actually grow. So I think, similar to what we just
(15:19):
discussed before the break, one of the hardest things about
moving into a manager position is, like what you said, Lisa,
like letting your team do the B plus work. So
how do you actually let go of everything so you
can just lead.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
You have to learn to ask better questions. So rather
than jump in and be a fixer all the time, yeah,
which all that does is create this cycle of reliance
of your team on you. So think about if we're
working together in a team and to deliver certain projects,
and every time you did something I was like, oh,
don't worry, I'll just fix up that last part. Yeah,
(15:52):
you're just gonna be like that's cool, I'm gonna go
to lunch now you do it right? Yeah right, that
doesn't work. So you've got to what we're stepping you
through here is like having that reset conversation, being really
clear on those expectations who is doing what and when,
and then rather than jumping into fix like you don't
have to have all the answers, you can learn to
(16:13):
ask better questions. Like what so a couple of really
powerful questions that I like that I always come back to.
You know, some of my backgrounds in coaching, and it
totally shifted my approach as a manager once I learned
these skills. So a couple of questions would be what's
the real challenge if we am.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Or what else could be true? This is a great one.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
If you're coming up with someone in your team who's
always making assumptions around other people, you can ask them
what else could be true and for a second they
just step outside of like, oh, well, I was just
gonna blame Sophie for not delivering it.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
What else could actually be going on?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
The other one that I really like from an expectation
point of view is like what support do you need
from me? Is it coaching, clarity or just getting out
of the way. Yeah, So often we assume that, like
again the assumptions, We assume that you want me to
fix this. No, not necessarily, I just want to talk
to like vents and get off my chest.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
That also applies in real life, like if a friend
comes up to you with the problem, my go to
is like, do you want advice or do you want.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Me to listen.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yes, that's a great question, right, and you can use
that as a manager. Now, my other favorite question has
two parts. It's a little bit of a trick question.
So say you're coming to me, and this happens all
the time with if you're a manager, people will come
up to you and go, oh, I'm having trouble with blah.
Can you just you know this is going on? Can
you fix it? So you pause for a second. You're
(17:36):
going to go would you like some advice from me?
And they're going to go yeah, because that's obviously what
I'm telling you, And then you stop for a second.
And this is really hard to do, but once you
do it, it's good. And I will say to you,
what do you think I'd say em oh, and so
I'm not giving the answer, and then they go, oh,
(17:57):
I think you'd say blah, or I could try blah,
or actually maybe you'd say blah. I'm like, well, are
those options.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
That you could take?
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Like, yeah, great, I haven't done anything apart from asking
questions to guide.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You're thinking, wait, you've actually done that before.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It works all the time, even with people who know
that I'm about to ask them that, and then they
laugh at me and they go, I know what you're
doing here. I'm like, that's okay, but can you answer
the question? Well you would say blah. And that is
not to say that I think I have all the answers, right.
What I'm trying to do is instead of band aiding everything,
every single problem, because sometimes you feel like you're doing
(18:30):
that as a manager, and you're putting all these band
aids on a gaping wound, You're going going a pause
for a minute. I'm gonna ask you a question and
see if you have the answer, because I believe that
you do have the answers because you're a fully fledged adult,
and off you go. Yeah, And then I've got so
much ownership. We love our own answers. Oh that is
so smart ownership. We're gonna do something about that, right.
That's the power of good questions. Like through this coaching training,
(18:51):
I learned it's all about shifting how the conversation goes
because when you ask the right question, people don't just
look to you for the answers. They start finding their
own answers. And that is like the cherry on top.
Oh my god, that is so good.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Maybe I should go back and management just so I
can tell people that, what do you think my answer
is going to be asking questions?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Just walk frout asking questions all day.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Oh god, that is so good when we talk about
questions there that is less about carrying everyone all the time,
because I think you know, so many people see managers
that are struggling and they're moving into this role and
they feel overwhelmed or overworked. Being a manager is not
about carrying everyone back to your mindset ship right. This
is more about creating space for them to step up,
(19:34):
help them do some B plus work for a while
that eventually becomes a plus work and they're going to
remember you as that great manager that you had in
your career that really help them learn, improve, grow, get
the next role.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
How good is that?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's so good and it's so true. I also wanted
to say that I learned quite quickly that when you
become a manager and leader, and I have said that
on the podcast before about a manager, but when you
become in that like leadership role, you soon realize that
the people you are leading think about you way more
than you think about them, Like they will be playing
(20:09):
like conversations in their heads. They will be like discussing
over drinks with their friends on how they approach a
promotion for you, and just remember that every time they
approach you that it does take a lot. Like not everyone,
but for me personally, it takes a lot for me
to actually go to my manager for a problem or
an issue or help with something, like it's something that
would be building in my head for like weeks and
(20:31):
weeks and weeks because managers, as we said before, they
don't just manage, but they also still have to do
the other job. So while they're doing that, they're like
completely not thinking about you, whilst you're still like ruminating,
going I wonder what you'll think about this, or watch
you think with me when I did this and stuff.
So just like take a moment whenever you get approached
by your colleagues, just take a moment and just like
(20:52):
remember that they have probably dissected every way this conversation
could go before they've started talking to you.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
I love it you brought that up in because people
just want time with their manager. Yeah, because I say
that person is the one that is like Cardie for them,
supporting them, et cetera, like make space for them.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's all they want to be heard.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
They just want to be bad.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Just hear me, Just let me know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Before we wrap up, we have to do a traditional out,
which is one useful thing, one useful thing at least,
So you always take this one because you always have
the useful thing.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You could have the useful thing next time. You've got
a lot of useful things you've shared today. So if
you're in a leadership role and you've been feeling unsure,
here's our one useful thing today that we want you
to remember. You don't need to have all the answers,
but you do need to be able to start a
good conversation. So try asking your team things like what
does support look like from me right now? And what's
(21:55):
one thing we could do differently to make this work better? Yeah,
if you had just asked that one question, what's one
thing we could do differently to make this work better?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
How good is that? Right?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Like, you're building trust straight away. You're making it a
two way dialogue. It's not me going this is how
it's going to work. In these questions do two things.
They show you that you're listening, and they really open
the door to this clarity without you having to control
everything because we've got to let go of some control here.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
One hundred percent. I feel like just remembering that one
like initial meeting that you said of like how can
we work together? That just sets you up for the
rest of your leadership journey, Like everything will just flow
into a place after that.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
One undred percent. It's your anchor.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
My god, good luck to all the new managers. Yes,
so good.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Let's get them out of that I have to know
everything trap because we all go through that. Yeah, please
don't let it last for two years like I did.
Hopefully can listen to this episode and then go, Okay,
I'm gonna change it tomorrow and then you can show
up and just listen, clarify and actually really support each
other and have a good time doing it too.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, leadership is fun. Enjoy it. Thank you so much
for listening to this episodpisode of Bierz. I hoped you
learned a lot of things. We have a handful of
more episodes that we'll be dropping into your podcast feed
over the next few weeks, so please stay tuned. And
if you know someone who would find this particular biz
(23:17):
episode useful or you know that they'll love it, Please
pass it on to them. You can send them the link,
or you can just tell them about it over drinks.
Don't forget, We're still posting over on our Instagram. We
are at Biz by Mama Mia. Biz is produced by
Sophie Campbell with audio production by Leah Porges and I
will see you next time.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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