June 30, 2025 • 28 mins
Do you feel guilty for taking breaks? Put work ahead of your relationships? Ignore your health in the name of productivity? You might be stuck in workaholic mode without even realising it!
Meet your new BIZ hosts: Lisa Lie (former Head of People & Culture who worked herself into burnout twice in one year) and Em Vernem (Associate Editor at Mamamia who discovered that giving 80% at work prevents the burnout that comes from constantly operating at 100%). They've been trapped in the cycle, escaped it, and now they're exposing the workaholic trap that's keeping high-achievers burning out—even when they love what they do.
You'll learn:
- The signs you're already caught in the cycle
- Where workaholic tendencies actually come from (hint: it's not what you think)
- How the workaholic trap sabotages your daily life without you noticing
- Why that promotion might be making everything worse
PLUS we take the University of Bergen’s 7-point Workaholism Test (finally, a way to tell the difference between working hard and working too hard), and chat the exact steps Lisa took to escape the workaholic cycle for good!
Resources That Actually Work:
Jane Martino, Co-Founder of Smiling Mind and Coach at Kintsugi Way
Mamamia's Well Burnout Episode: Is It Burnout Or Am I Just Really Tired?
7 Signs You May Be A Workaholic
The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide To Personal Freedom'by Don Miguel Ruiz
Less Hustle, More Happy by Claire Seeber
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
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Support independent women's media.
Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
HOSTS: Lisa Lie and Em Vernem
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and
welcome to the new era of BIZ. It is going
to be like a tailor swift era. We're going to
go through it all, but we are going to give
you a whole bunch of new things to work through,
like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to
be really fun and exciting, because work and career can
be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host,
(00:36):
Lisa Welcome to Biz.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I
highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a
link in our show notes so you can download it
from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced
myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor
and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very very
excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ
(01:09):
for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to
thank Michelle Batisby and so Hurst, our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Biz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. But we
can't wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice
inside of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So,
(01:29):
whether you're a regular or you've just dropped in, welcome
to the next chapter of BIZ. We are here for
real and practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how
to make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
You know, it feeling like you should always be working,
even when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work and that's it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, they're always on feeling exactly, And I think a
lot of us, especially if you came up on that
girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into
this trap at some point because it's what was expected
of us and it's where we saw people achieving and
so success. So today when I'm packing, why it happens,
how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how
(02:25):
to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay Li. So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because
I'm afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years
is insane, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let me just swish off.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I have no boundaries.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts.
Email addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
Constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
No, Tina, there's no good near switch off girl.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I really love what I do, but I've worked through
every public holiday this year.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I talk to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too. Sorry,
there's a lot of people feeling it. I think we
should talk about where this trap actually starts, because it
usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it built
up really early, and it built up from something really simple,
like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You've picked that up already done a few things.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better and
being known for it, and when something's working, you've really
double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became
(04:23):
quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that you
start to tell yourself if I work hard, then I'm rewarded,
and it's really like what is your definition of working hard?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Right? That behavior became part of how I.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Operated all the time throughout my career, and you know
as well as I do, that that is not sustainable.
So the trap is that the more that you become
that person, the harder it is to stop. Like people
expect it, you expect it of yourself, and before you
know it, working all the time just becomes the norm.
And it can work for a while, and it did
work for me for quite a while, but there's always
(04:56):
a point where you hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Something shifts.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something
in your personal life change.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Now.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yes, generally you.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Can and workaholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is.
You realize then that this way of working is not
working for me and it's not going to get me
to where I want to go next.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, do you relate with like being this workaholic?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that, and now I'm twenty nine and I
remember when I started, the only person I knew who
had like the big career that I wanted to achieve
(05:38):
was my mom. Like she was just like big boss
energy and she was a workaholic, and I was like,
that's what I have to do. And I remember I
was doing like I started here and everyone was like
go home, go, Like it was crazy. I was so
young and I would be here to like eight pm,
doing like a meaningless task that I didn't really need
to do, and I just wanted to do it and
show that I could do it. And I feel like
it's generational, right, Like I feel like a certain generation
(05:59):
awarded that kind of work. And that's kind of shifting
now now that like millennials and older gen zs becoming managers,
it's more respectful to not have to rely on people
to show that they're literally dying for the job. Yes,
And I used to be so annoyed because I would
see young girls come into work working hard, but not
going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much as
(06:21):
I did when I first this job, and I was like,
why are they also achieving the same things I achieved?
And then I realized it's not because they're not working hard,
it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yes, I think that's really interesting. The point you rise
around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my fasors of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader, and there are a group of
people around me. We were a really high performing team,
and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit
workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah,
exactly what you said. It's STI your environment and even
like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle
as well, because I feel like the one point in
your life where you can switch off and not be
workaholic is when you're not at work. But then all
my friends and my closest friends are also in the
same line and work at me. Like they're all journalists,
(07:13):
all workaholic. So even when we're like out of drinks,
out a dinner, it's like, what are you doing at work?
What's going on the work? Everyone knows everyone. It's just
one of those things where it can filter into your
life without you even realizing it.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that you know,
people can rely on me. Therefore I don't want to
let people down, and so I'll keep working to make
sure that I'm not letting anyone else down. I mentioned
to you earlier there was this tipping point for me
(07:46):
last year in this I think I've always been a
bit of a work colic, like we always have really
good work ethic, and it's varied into stages of being
good work ethic into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
But last year was.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right, So,
as I was coming through the second point of realizing
that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something has got
to change.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and
to the point where you just like stare at the
screen and not like get anything done. You're like, oh,
I just don't even know where to start, so you
almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big,
big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(08:35):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling. Yeah, physically seeing yeah, exactly, And so
the physical part of them, like right, at some point
you have to listen to your body and realize that
it's trying to tell you something. And so for me
last year, that was the point where I'm like, Okay,
I need to find out more about this and I
need to figure out a better way of.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Working going forward.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So that's when I started paying attention to the signs,
and honestly, they weren't really dramatic. Like I mentioned one
before was like just feeling really physically tired. But it
can also be small stuff that leads into this, like
identifying that you're in workholic mode. So one you said
before like must be on twenty four to seven. Yeah,
another one was mine. I was very guilty of this,
thinking about how you can free out more time to work.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Ye. It's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in
your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happened, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I've done that. My big tell is when I wake
up and the first thing I do is check my
cycle or check my emails yep, because it usually is
check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy? Yes, but it's
a social app versus a work app. Exactly when when
I wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC
when I was sleep? Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was
(09:55):
asleep as well. But it's just one of those things
where I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my
signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste
of time, wouldn't you be doing something productive with your time?
Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I actually
set out loud.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My god, my mom would love here, which.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It's not right.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game day every single day. There's like rest and
recovery and training and things like that built into it.
That was a really good analogy for me to like go, Okay,
something has to shift here. Yeah. I also think like
(10:46):
it's worth touching on him that there are points in
your career where you do want to or have to
work hard and like you want to dig in, right.
You know, there are times in my career where I
was working on certain projects and really good opportunities and
I'm sure you'd like resonate with this, and I did
have to dig deep, but it wasn't twenty four to
seven and it wasn't every day yeah week as well.
And so that's not all we're talking about here. We're saying, yes,
(11:08):
work hard at points, but don't make it a habit.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah. I have a running joke here at Mama Mia
and I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's
head of content, and I've said I probably give about
eighty percent on myself at work, and they were like, what, like,
should you be telling me this yes, and I was like,
I actually think it's quite true because one hundred percent
for me, like the way I work is workaholic level. Yeah,
(11:33):
Like if you want me at one hundred percent, just
know I'm going to be burnt out in two months,
Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot. Like I
know when to clock off, I know when to relax,
I know when to take my break. I know if
I need to start a bit later, if I finish
a bit earlier. Because I'm confident that I am a
good worker and I'm confident that I work hard and
I have to do these little things. And in my
(11:54):
head when I say eighty percent, it helps me bring
it back. Yes, And I don't mean like if you
aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Aplays work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, Okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
where you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job. Yeah, And when
I realized I could still get the same things out
of my job by like relaxing a little bit, I
was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to
do that. Like, I think I go into waves as well. Yes,
(12:52):
exactly what you said, Like, there will be times in
my career, which is right now, because I've got like
a new job and I want to be the best
of the best at it. So there will be times
like now where I will probably tap into that workaholicism.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, but there will.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Be times where I know I have to pull it
back because I don't want to burn out. So I
do think you will go through waves in your career
where you will have to work a bit harder. Then
sometimes you can just like take a back seat, still
work up, take a bit of a backseat and just
be aware of that. Like, I think, once you're actually
aware of your pattern, then it makes it so much
easier to control.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually,
I think I'm quite serious about that.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what is
this whiplash? Like one day em is like working on
this level, and now she's working on this level. They're
aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,
I am going to show everyone this. So the Department
of Psychosocial Science at the University of Bergen in Norway
developed a work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that
characterize a workaholic, and they came up with seven signs
(14:08):
and they said that if you answer often or always
to any of these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies
and brace yourselves because they are quite like simple things
that I didn't even realize were signs of a workaholic.
So number one, you think of how you can free
up more time to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Now, enough, now please do Number three you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor. Let
anyone down.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yes, And I think this also comes in with the
generational thing, like what certain generations expect. Like I have
a friend whose boss is always like so they manage
a team, and then their boss overseas like three teams, okay,
And with my friend's team, a lot of them work
from home. Her boss comes in and she's like everyone's
working from home again, what the hell? And she's like,
(15:12):
I'm the most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers,
You've seen how hard we work. And then he realized
he was like, oh my god, yeah, I don't have
to see them to know that they're working. Yes, correct,
that's a really good example. I hope he's listening. Number four,
you have been told by others to cut down on
work without listening to them. Oh, that's a bit of
(15:33):
a red fight to me.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert on the plane.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need
to do that right now?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Edited some content? It was good, But did it really
need to have that?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
She'd have been editing as you had the Tailor Swift
cons out.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay,
good good, good guy.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Five.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
If I go on a holiday, I make it a
point to delete my cyc An email and I give
my numbers to the people who need my number in
a case that's an emergency. I'm a journalist. I'm a podcaster.
What kind of emergency I know I think they need
from me.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like are you the CEO of
a fourteen five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
It is so like, no.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
If you're a surgeon, different story. Yeah, but not all
of us are saving lives. No, okay, number six, you
deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise because of your work.
Oh i' mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Actually are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So either yeah, yeah, even this
year on like full pilates zen must must be part
of my day kind of situation to.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Bring it back. Yeah, it's hard though, especially the hobby stuff. Yeah,
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like,
why would you waste your time watching TV?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
But like why would we waste the time doing stuff
that's not work.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah yeah, okay. Number seven, you work so much that
it has negatively influenced your health. This is a big one.
I was burnt out. I can't remember what year it was.
I became so physically sick. I had to take three
weeks off work.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like,
felt like the flu, but no flu symptoms, and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(18:13):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I think are also much more aware of it.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend
or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You need to work out, and your workplace should be
on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at Mom
and mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like,
go do your thing that's working yourself where like be
aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like,
it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept
of burnout. There's still places where they're like, what do
you mean.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I mean I started my career in advertising and this
is like penal City.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I know, this is like fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Ago as well when it started, and it was like
glamorized burnout. It was full work hard, play hard, and
I loved it and I was young. But you can't
keep doing that forever. Yeah, Next up, we're going to
tell you how you can break free of that and
share some of our tips around how.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We've moved out of the don't worry, it's not a
doom and glamor.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
No, it is not doom and gloom. It's awful of
hope from here.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
So I thought we could share what's helped us both.
I want to share what I've done recently that's actually
really helped me start to break out of that trap
and also almost out of that mindset of I must
work all the time and keep it in check, because,
like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
There are times when you can work hard.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
We just won't want you to end up becoming a
workaholic and that being part of your life, right, I
will say, I'm still a work in progress. I really
love what I do, and so I do find it
hard to switch off.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know. I was even writing these notes quite late
at night for this episode.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Got that notification girl, it was great for me, who
checks my emails at six thirty eight?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I thought, so keeping it in check and just being
much more wherever, and like I think the start of
any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization
that you don't want to be that way. So a
couple of things I did so when I was in
burnout Burnout Part two last year, I was like, something
has to change.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, Yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(20:42):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(21:04):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo.
We got a prop.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah. Her
book review was like this transfer my life. My book
review is the start and the end are a bit
woo woo for me.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But the Four Agreements you do not give woo woo
out of everything, right, Yeah. But I was like, I'm
very like open to learning and open minded. So I
was like hmm.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I had to push through the first couple of chapters.
But then when we got into the four agreements around
like you know, what you should agree with yourself and
the kind of like work life and life you want
to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement
being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally. Third,
don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And
(22:00):
it talks about those and the minds that you have
around each of those things.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off weo weoo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit, you should go to where you haven't been before.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Actually, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Go foraging?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yes, go foraging by this book That oprazervis transformational. So
my third tip is balance like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Does good look like?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
What does good look like? And so then I've got
my top three or four things that have to do
that's so good. And so my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Ooh, I hate that word.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I actually there's someone who's like such a perm I
just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I
mean everyone's business.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, Like, I'll just find out this one more thing. Boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. Hm. It's like when you were
saying before, like someone told me I can't work. But
at some point you realize that work is more of
a marathon, not a sprint, and if we treat it
like a sprint.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
They were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, you enjoy it too, Like you should be able
to enjoy work. And so if you think about it
that way, then the boundaries become why do I need
these boundaries?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable?
Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Do I need them?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Because I want to dedicate some time to other areas
in my life as well, like exercise that's also important.
And so figure out why it's important for you, because
if you don't do that top and tail of why,
like why with the coach and then why should I
set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any
kind of change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Oh okay, I do have a few tips that worked
for me personally.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So are they woo woo?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like if
you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as
a grain of.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Salt's let's go take your pick.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I
mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot
of my closest friends are also industry friends who know
about work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in
your life who are the complete opposite and hang out
with them a lot.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
My person I go to when I feel like I'm
working a lot and a lot and a lot and
it's like kind of taking out my whole life is
my Nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your nana
and be on your phone. That's so rude. Yeah, and
she has no idea about anything. So we're just talking
about the garden. We're talking about what she watched on
Netflix lately. We're talking about newsphy she found.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Excellent, Yep, that work.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook,
and she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yes, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I
mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard.
Like even like what I do when I go on
holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete
my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still,
I will have these little times where I'll be on
the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like
(25:20):
quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.
What I do in some situations, it's like, say it's
a weekend, I tell work that I'm going to be
away in a place where there's no reception. Yeah. So
and it's not just telling them as in like, don't
message me. But it's like telling yourself, like, yes, you've
given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and not
(25:43):
check your phone over the weekend because people will definitely
not message you. Now, it's like giving you like it's fine,
people aren't going to message you. Firstly, they won't message
you on the weekend, but now they definitely won't because
you told them me, I have no reception exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories
we tell ourselves as well, and how much we're convinced
you can stuff if it works it.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you fear like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead our phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh,
quickly check your computer. Yes, I try to find hobbies
(26:22):
where you physically can't do that. And one of mine
is I used to play piano when I was younger,
and I've started taking it up again, so I'm playing piano.
You actually can't check your phone when you're playing piano.
It's really hard. And then if you have those like
workaholic tendencies where you just want to achieve something and
be good at it, just make finishing that piano piece
that thing. Yes, And I just tell yourself that if
(26:43):
I finish this, if I do that, then that's something
I've achieved. And then you haven't thought about work for
like an hour.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that
I can do where like you physically can't think about
anything else because then your stuff it up.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Exactly, So it's just so nice. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, I think if we can give everyone like one
useful thing to go away from this with is if
you are feeling like you're part of some of these
workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the list
of you this year with us before figure out why, Yeah,
talk to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(27:31):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
So good. That is all we have for this week's
episode of BIBS. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings,
so thank you so much for spending some of your
day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle
your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus,
for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights.
(27:54):
On some behind the scenes we did a very special
little behind the scenes better shot for you to check out.
Oh yes, go give it a follow, give us a
littt Yeah, hell us, how much you loved it. If
you want more of these topics, you can check out
our newsletter as well. It's completely free. We'll put a
link in our show notes to that, and we'll put
everything that you want to recap in that one newsletter.
(28:15):
It is such a good asset. Every time I get it,
I'm like, oh my god, I forgot we covered all this?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Oh yes, business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell,
with audio by Leah Porges. We'll be back in your
podcast feed next week with more no nonsense work chat.
Until then, back yourself, ask what you want, and remember
even the most confident people are figuring it out as
they go.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
See you next time. Bye.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and
welcome to the new era of BIZ. It is going
to be like a tailor swift era. We're going to
go through it all, but we are going to give
you a whole bunch of new things to work through,
like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to
be really fun and exciting, because work and career can
be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host,
(00:36):
Lisa Welcome to Biz.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
work problems fast.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I
highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a
link in our show notes so you can download it
from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced
myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor
and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very very
excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ
(01:09):
for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to
thank Michelle Batisby and so Hurst, our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Biz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. But we
can't wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice
inside of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So,
(01:29):
whether you're a regular or you've just dropped in, welcome
to the next chapter of BIZ. We are here for
real and practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how
to make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
You know, it feeling like you should always be working,
even when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work and that's it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, they're always on feeling exactly, And I think a
lot of us, especially if you came up on that
girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into
this trap at some point because it's what was expected
of us and it's where we saw people achieving and
so success. So today when I'm packing, why it happens,
how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how
(02:25):
to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay Li. So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because
I'm afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years
is insane, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let me just swish off.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I have no boundaries.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts.
Email addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
Constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
No, Tina, there's no good near switch off girl.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I really love what I do, but I've worked through
every public holiday this year.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
I talk to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too. Sorry,
there's a lot of people feeling it. I think we
should talk about where this trap actually starts, because it
usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it built
up really early, and it built up from something really simple,
like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You've picked that up already done a few things.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better and
being known for it, and when something's working, you've really
double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became
(04:23):
quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that you
start to tell yourself if I work hard, then I'm rewarded,
and it's really like what is your definition of working hard?
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Right? That behavior became part of how I.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Operated all the time throughout my career, and you know
as well as I do, that that is not sustainable.
So the trap is that the more that you become
that person, the harder it is to stop. Like people
expect it, you expect it of yourself, and before you
know it, working all the time just becomes the norm.
And it can work for a while, and it did
work for me for quite a while, but there's always
(04:56):
a point where you hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Something shifts.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something
in your personal life change.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Now.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yes, generally you.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Can and workaholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is.
You realize then that this way of working is not
working for me and it's not going to get me
to where I want to go next.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, do you relate with like being this workaholic?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that, and now I'm twenty nine and I
remember when I started, the only person I knew who
had like the big career that I wanted to achieve
(05:38):
was my mom. Like she was just like big boss
energy and she was a workaholic, and I was like,
that's what I have to do. And I remember I
was doing like I started here and everyone was like
go home, go, Like it was crazy. I was so
young and I would be here to like eight pm,
doing like a meaningless task that I didn't really need
to do, and I just wanted to do it and
show that I could do it. And I feel like
it's generational, right, Like I feel like a certain generation
(05:59):
awarded that kind of work. And that's kind of shifting
now now that like millennials and older gen zs becoming managers,
it's more respectful to not have to rely on people
to show that they're literally dying for the job. Yes,
And I used to be so annoyed because I would
see young girls come into work working hard, but not
going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much as
(06:21):
I did when I first this job, and I was like,
why are they also achieving the same things I achieved?
And then I realized it's not because they're not working hard,
it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yes, I think that's really interesting. The point you rise
around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my fasors of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader, and there are a group of
people around me. We were a really high performing team,
and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit
workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah,
exactly what you said. It's STI your environment and even
like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle
as well, because I feel like the one point in
your life where you can switch off and not be
workaholic is when you're not at work. But then all
my friends and my closest friends are also in the
same line and work at me. Like they're all journalists,
(07:13):
all workaholic. So even when we're like out of drinks,
out a dinner, it's like, what are you doing at work?
What's going on the work? Everyone knows everyone. It's just
one of those things where it can filter into your
life without you even realizing it.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that you know,
people can rely on me. Therefore I don't want to
let people down, and so I'll keep working to make
sure that I'm not letting anyone else down. I mentioned
to you earlier there was this tipping point for me
(07:46):
last year in this I think I've always been a
bit of a work colic, like we always have really
good work ethic, and it's varied into stages of being
good work ethic into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
But last year was.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right, So,
as I was coming through the second point of realizing
that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something has got
to change.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and
to the point where you just like stare at the
screen and not like get anything done. You're like, oh,
I just don't even know where to start, so you
almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big,
big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(08:35):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling. Yeah, physically seeing yeah, exactly, And so
the physical part of them, like right, at some point
you have to listen to your body and realize that
it's trying to tell you something. And so for me
last year, that was the point where I'm like, Okay,
I need to find out more about this and I
need to figure out a better way of.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Working going forward.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
So that's when I started paying attention to the signs,
and honestly, they weren't really dramatic. Like I mentioned one
before was like just feeling really physically tired. But it
can also be small stuff that leads into this, like
identifying that you're in workholic mode. So one you said
before like must be on twenty four to seven. Yeah,
another one was mine. I was very guilty of this,
thinking about how you can free out more time to work.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Ye. It's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in
your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happened, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I've done that. My big tell is when I wake
up and the first thing I do is check my
cycle or check my emails yep, because it usually is
check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy? Yes, but it's
a social app versus a work app. Exactly when when
I wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC
when I was sleep? Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was
(09:55):
asleep as well. But it's just one of those things
where I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my
signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste
of time, wouldn't you be doing something productive with your time?
Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I actually
set out loud.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
My god, my mom would love here, which.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It's not right.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game day every single day. There's like rest and
recovery and training and things like that built into it.
That was a really good analogy for me to like go, Okay,
something has to shift here. Yeah. I also think like
(10:46):
it's worth touching on him that there are points in
your career where you do want to or have to
work hard and like you want to dig in, right.
You know, there are times in my career where I
was working on certain projects and really good opportunities and
I'm sure you'd like resonate with this, and I did
have to dig deep, but it wasn't twenty four to
seven and it wasn't every day yeah week as well.
And so that's not all we're talking about here. We're saying, yes,
(11:08):
work hard at points, but don't make it a habit.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah. I have a running joke here at Mama Mia
and I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's
head of content, and I've said I probably give about
eighty percent on myself at work, and they were like, what, like,
should you be telling me this yes, and I was like,
I actually think it's quite true because one hundred percent
for me, like the way I work is workaholic level. Yeah,
(11:33):
Like if you want me at one hundred percent, just
know I'm going to be burnt out in two months,
Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot. Like I
know when to clock off, I know when to relax,
I know when to take my break. I know if
I need to start a bit later, if I finish
a bit earlier. Because I'm confident that I am a
good worker and I'm confident that I work hard and
I have to do these little things. And in my
(11:54):
head when I say eighty percent, it helps me bring
it back. Yes, And I don't mean like if you
aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Aplays work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, Okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
where you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job. Yeah, And when
I realized I could still get the same things out
of my job by like relaxing a little bit, I
was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to
do that. Like, I think I go into waves as well. Yes,
(12:52):
exactly what you said, Like, there will be times in
my career, which is right now, because I've got like
a new job and I want to be the best
of the best at it. So there will be times
like now where I will probably tap into that workaholicism.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, but there will.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Be times where I know I have to pull it
back because I don't want to burn out. So I
do think you will go through waves in your career
where you will have to work a bit harder. Then
sometimes you can just like take a back seat, still
work up, take a bit of a backseat and just
be aware of that. Like, I think, once you're actually
aware of your pattern, then it makes it so much
easier to control.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually,
I think I'm quite serious about that.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what is
this whiplash? Like one day em is like working on
this level, and now she's working on this level. They're
aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,
I am going to show everyone this. So the Department
of Psychosocial Science at the University of Bergen in Norway
developed a work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that
characterize a workaholic, and they came up with seven signs
(14:08):
and they said that if you answer often or always
to any of these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies
and brace yourselves because they are quite like simple things
that I didn't even realize were signs of a workaholic.
So number one, you think of how you can free
up more time to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Now, enough, now please do Number three you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor. Let
anyone down.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yes, And I think this also comes in with the
generational thing, like what certain generations expect. Like I have
a friend whose boss is always like so they manage
a team, and then their boss overseas like three teams, okay,
And with my friend's team, a lot of them work
from home. Her boss comes in and she's like everyone's
working from home again, what the hell? And she's like,
(15:12):
I'm the most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers,
You've seen how hard we work. And then he realized
he was like, oh my god, yeah, I don't have
to see them to know that they're working. Yes, correct,
that's a really good example. I hope he's listening. Number four,
you have been told by others to cut down on
work without listening to them. Oh, that's a bit of
(15:33):
a red fight to me.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert on the plane.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need
to do that right now?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Edited some content? It was good, But did it really
need to have that?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
She'd have been editing as you had the Tailor Swift
cons out.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay,
good good, good guy.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Five.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
If I go on a holiday, I make it a
point to delete my cyc An email and I give
my numbers to the people who need my number in
a case that's an emergency. I'm a journalist. I'm a podcaster.
What kind of emergency I know I think they need
from me.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like are you the CEO of
a fourteen five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
It is so like, no.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
If you're a surgeon, different story. Yeah, but not all
of us are saving lives. No, okay, number six, you
deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise because of your work.
Oh i' mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Actually are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So either yeah, yeah, even this
year on like full pilates zen must must be part
of my day kind of situation to.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Bring it back. Yeah, it's hard though, especially the hobby stuff. Yeah,
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like,
why would you waste your time watching TV?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
But like why would we waste the time doing stuff
that's not work.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah yeah, okay. Number seven, you work so much that
it has negatively influenced your health. This is a big one.
I was burnt out. I can't remember what year it was.
I became so physically sick. I had to take three
weeks off work.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like,
felt like the flu, but no flu symptoms, and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(18:13):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I think are also much more aware of it.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend
or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
You need to work out, and your workplace should be
on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at Mom
and mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like,
go do your thing that's working yourself where like be
aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like,
it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept
of burnout. There's still places where they're like, what do
you mean.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I mean I started my career in advertising and this
is like penal City.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I know, this is like fifteen years.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Ago as well when it started, and it was like
glamorized burnout. It was full work hard, play hard, and
I loved it and I was young. But you can't
keep doing that forever. Yeah, Next up, we're going to
tell you how you can break free of that and
share some of our tips around how.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We've moved out of the don't worry, it's not a
doom and glamor.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
No, it is not doom and gloom. It's awful of
hope from here.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
So I thought we could share what's helped us both.
I want to share what I've done recently that's actually
really helped me start to break out of that trap
and also almost out of that mindset of I must
work all the time and keep it in check, because,
like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
There are times when you can work hard.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
We just won't want you to end up becoming a
workaholic and that being part of your life, right, I
will say, I'm still a work in progress. I really
love what I do, and so I do find it
hard to switch off.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know. I was even writing these notes quite late
at night for this episode.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Got that notification girl, it was great for me, who
checks my emails at six thirty eight?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I thought, so keeping it in check and just being
much more wherever, and like I think the start of
any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization
that you don't want to be that way. So a
couple of things I did so when I was in
burnout Burnout Part two last year, I was like, something
has to change.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, Yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(20:42):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(21:04):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo.
We got a prop.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah. Her
book review was like this transfer my life. My book
review is the start and the end are a bit
woo woo for me.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But the Four Agreements you do not give woo woo
out of everything, right, Yeah. But I was like, I'm
very like open to learning and open minded. So I
was like hmm.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I had to push through the first couple of chapters.
But then when we got into the four agreements around
like you know, what you should agree with yourself and
the kind of like work life and life you want
to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement
being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally. Third,
don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And
(22:00):
it talks about those and the minds that you have
around each of those things.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off weo weoo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit, you should go to where you haven't been before.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Actually, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Go foraging?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yes, go foraging by this book That oprazervis transformational. So
my third tip is balance like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Does good look like?
Speaker 3 (22:37):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
What does good look like? And so then I've got
my top three or four things that have to do
that's so good. And so my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Ooh, I hate that word.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I actually there's someone who's like such a perm I
just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I
mean everyone's business.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, Like, I'll just find out this one more thing. Boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. Hm. It's like when you were
saying before, like someone told me I can't work. But
at some point you realize that work is more of
a marathon, not a sprint, and if we treat it
like a sprint.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
They were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, you enjoy it too, Like you should be able
to enjoy work. And so if you think about it
that way, then the boundaries become why do I need
these boundaries?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Like?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable?
Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Do I need them?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Because I want to dedicate some time to other areas
in my life as well, like exercise that's also important.
And so figure out why it's important for you, because
if you don't do that top and tail of why,
like why with the coach and then why should I
set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any
kind of change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Oh okay, I do have a few tips that worked
for me personally.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So are they woo woo?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like if
you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as
a grain of.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Salt's let's go take your pick.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I
mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot
of my closest friends are also industry friends who know
about work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in
your life who are the complete opposite and hang out
with them a lot.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
My person I go to when I feel like I'm
working a lot and a lot and a lot and
it's like kind of taking out my whole life is
my Nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your nana
and be on your phone. That's so rude. Yeah, and
she has no idea about anything. So we're just talking
about the garden. We're talking about what she watched on
Netflix lately. We're talking about newsphy she found.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Excellent, Yep, that work.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook,
and she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yes, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I
mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard.
Like even like what I do when I go on
holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete
my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still,
I will have these little times where I'll be on
the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like
(25:20):
quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.
What I do in some situations, it's like, say it's
a weekend, I tell work that I'm going to be
away in a place where there's no reception. Yeah. So
and it's not just telling them as in like, don't
message me. But it's like telling yourself, like, yes, you've
given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and not
(25:43):
check your phone over the weekend because people will definitely
not message you. Now, it's like giving you like it's fine,
people aren't going to message you. Firstly, they won't message
you on the weekend, but now they definitely won't because
you told them me, I have no reception exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories
we tell ourselves as well, and how much we're convinced
you can stuff if it works it.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you fear like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead our phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh,
quickly check your computer. Yes, I try to find hobbies
(26:22):
where you physically can't do that. And one of mine
is I used to play piano when I was younger,
and I've started taking it up again, so I'm playing piano.
You actually can't check your phone when you're playing piano.
It's really hard. And then if you have those like
workaholic tendencies where you just want to achieve something and
be good at it, just make finishing that piano piece
that thing. Yes, And I just tell yourself that if
(26:43):
I finish this, if I do that, then that's something
I've achieved. And then you haven't thought about work for
like an hour.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that
I can do where like you physically can't think about
anything else because then your stuff it up.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Exactly, So it's just so nice. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, I think if we can give everyone like one
useful thing to go away from this with is if
you are feeling like you're part of some of these
workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the list
of you this year with us before figure out why, Yeah,
talk to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(27:31):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
So good. That is all we have for this week's
episode of BIBS. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings,
so thank you so much for spending some of your
day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle
your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus,
for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights.
(27:54):
On some behind the scenes we did a very special
little behind the scenes better shot for you to check out.
Oh yes, go give it a follow, give us a
littt Yeah, hell us, how much you loved it. If
you want more of these topics, you can check out
our newsletter as well. It's completely free. We'll put a
link in our show notes to that, and we'll put
everything that you want to recap in that one newsletter.
(28:15):
It is such a good asset. Every time I get it,
I'm like, oh my god, I forgot we covered all this?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Oh yes, business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell,
with audio by Leah Porges. We'll be back in your
podcast feed next week with more no nonsense work chat.
Until then, back yourself, ask what you want, and remember
even the most confident people are figuring it out as
they go.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
See you next time. Bye.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on
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