August 18, 2025 • 31 mins
Let's be honest...waiting until you feel "ready" to make a career move is like waiting for the perfect weather to start exercising. It's never going to happen, and meanwhile, everyone else is getting ahead. This week, we're diving deep into why learning isn't just nice-to-have anymore - it's career insurance. Our guest Andrea Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast, and she doesn't believe in waiting until you're ready to grow.
From recognizing when that "mutual value exchange" with your employer has run its course, to spotting signals of change before they become obvious to everyone else. We explore why Andrea invested $3,000 in an AI course back in 2017 (spoiler: it paid off massively) and tackle the biggest blocker to career growth - thinking you need to feel 100% confident before taking action.
What you'll learn:
• The "mutual value exchange" test to know when it's time to move on
• How to spot signals of change 5 years before your industry
• Micro-learning strategies for busy people who think they don't have time
• Why courage brings clarity and how to turn experiments into evidence
• How to align your learning goals with where your business is heading in 2030
Resources:
- Future Fit: How To Stay Relevant And Competitive In The Future Of Work by Andrea Clarke
- Adapt: Mastering change in four steps by Andrea Clarke
Our BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
THE END BITS
Support independent women's media.
Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
GUEST: Andrea Clarke
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Want $10 + a free month of Mamamia? We've got you.
We're cooking up something exciting and need your brilliant opinions to help us make even better content.
It's just 20 minutes of your time, and you'll get:
- $10 e-gift card
- 1 month Mamamia subscription (or gift it to someone if you're already a subscriber)
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe
See omnyst
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mum with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to Bierz. Your work life sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm even and I'm Lesa Lye so em Today I
want to ask you, when was the last time you
looked at a work challenge and thought this is a
chance to grow instead of Oh, why me? Why is
this happening?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know me well enough to know exactly what the
answer is. It's been like years since I've said this
is a time to grow, a chance to grow.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You didn't get a T shirt with them together.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Everything's a learning opportunity. I haven't said that in a really,
really long time. I feel like I always avoid doing
that because I'm so scared of slipping into that workaholic
mode We've talked about before, that hustle culture, and I
just completely go the opposite way.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, and I don't think like learning and hustle culture
have to go together. But in a world where industries
and roles can shift totally overnight, staying in debt will
feels more like survival and being relevant as well. The
people driving art necessarily the smartest as well. I think
they're the ones who see every curveball as a learning opportunity,
which counts so forced, but a moment ago, I actually
(01:15):
learned something here and I'm better for it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Which is also why I am very, very excited for
an episode today because we actually have a guest on
this episode. It's a little bit rare for us, but
we have a guest in here in the studio. Least
tell me about our guest.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So Andrew Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast.
She has broadcast in war zones, and she's also written
a couple of books about future ready careers. Just a
small career, just a couple of things there. She doesn't
believe in waiting until you're ready to grow, which I
love about her, and she talks a lot about this
in this episode today. She says, the most powerful thing
you can do is take action before you feel one
(01:49):
hundred percent confident.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So if you are ready to turn I mean, according
to Ana, you don't even have to be ready. If
you're ready to turn every challenge into a growth opportunity
and build learning into your career. This conversation is for you, Andrea,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So we've all had that moment where you're in a
job or even a whole career path. And from the outside,
everything looks fine. You're ticking the boxes, feedbacks, good salary, steady,
but something just feels, I don't know, like a bit off. Yeah,
like you're running out of energy for it or worse,
I think you're hit at bad point. Now if you're
starting to dread Monday mornings, the Sunday scaries. Yeah, for
(02:28):
Sunday scary. So how do you know when that feeling
is actually a sign or a signal? As Andrea likes
to say, that you should make a change and not
just push through. And what if nothing's actually wrong, you're
just having a moment. Because we all have moments, Andrea,
what are the real signs someone should be watching for
that say like it's time to rethink this. And what
are people often ignore until it's too late.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
The first sign is the mutual value exchange. Now, a
mutual value exchange is that balance that you have with
an employer. Now, I get paid to come to work,
I come to work, I deliver the work. That's a
mutual value exchange. Now, when that has been out of
balance for too long, that's usually when we feel like
(03:10):
something needs to change here. I need a bit of
a rethink. So unless there's something to address with your employer,
it might be something internal, it might be something external.
But I would encourage everyone listening to think about has
this mutual value to exchange run its course in some form?
And if it has, what then is my next step?
(03:31):
Do I have to address something within myself or is
it something that I have to address in the workplace?
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Makes sense?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, how would you know that if it's run its course?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think that's a gut feeling. I think we've all
stayed in relationships for too long where we know that'd
been guilty. Yeah, it's something that only you can make
that call on. It's a gut feel, it's instinct, it's intuition,
call it whatever you want to call it. But we
all know when something is run its course. And I
feel that it's very important to especially from a workplace
(04:02):
or a job, to exit on a high leave when
it's good. Yeah, leave something on the table for someone else.
I think that's a very generous way to look at
a career. And I worked in media for many years,
and I make this observation of other people and myself,
how long am I willing to stay on this sort
(04:24):
of career or job high for or is there an
opportunity for me to step aside, move on to something
else and be generous leave something on the table.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah? Is this comfort like always a red flag though,
Like sometimes I feel like we are uncomfortable through change,
or we're uncomfortable when we're learning something for the first time,
and sometimes people go, well stuff that, like I'm out,
this is too hard. Where's that line where you're actually
learning versus like full redplaate like the middle ground.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, you've got to feel stretched, right, we can sit
in this comfort zone, and I've got a friend Lisa
Stevenson who calls it the waiting place. Like, we can
sit in this waiting place for an extended period of time.
It's up to us to demonstrate the agency to move
out and to find something new. So I think the
balance again comes back to how often do I feel
like I'm stretching myself or do I feel like I'm
(05:15):
sitting in the waiting place or this comfort zone. How
long are we sitting in that place for? Because I
think that for me is a signal and I know
that if I you know, if I just generally feel
like the future version of myself.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
If I'm not.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Excited about that future version of myself that's usually assigned
to me when I need to, you know, look beyond
and think about what can I learn to adapt Because
learning and adapting goes. I mean, that's a cycle. It's
a beautiful positive loop that just keeps going around and around,
and you've got to make the call when you need
to learn something new because you're paying attention to those
signals have changed. And I think that is something that
(05:50):
we don't talk about enough. The shelf life of our careers,
the shelf life of skills is getting shorter and our
careers are getting longer, and so the only way to
close that gap continually is by actively learning and paying
attention to what you are learning. So if you don't
feel as though you're learning any thing, then you're in
the waiting place for too long.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
And maybe that's a signal.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I have so many friends who are like, oh, I
don't really like my job, or I'll find another job soon,
like the timing's not quite right. What do you suggest
they kind of ask themselves or think through if they're
in this waiting place?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Do you talk about I think the most dangerous thing
we can do right now is ignore the role of learning,
because if we're not learning, we're standing still, and in
this very dynamic work environment, standing still is the equivalent
to falling behind. And so when we stop learning, I
believe that we stop expanding our voice, our ability to influence,
(06:45):
and the impact that we can have on ourselves and others.
And so I don't believe that learning is a luxury.
I believe that it is power. And we need to
reposition learning within ourselves and within the workplace because it
builds career insurance, it strengthens personal agency, and it gives
us more options for the future, and that is a
(07:08):
place that we want to be. I want to end
up in my own version of the future. I don't
want to end up in someone else's. And so if
you want to have a continuing voice on.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
What your own future of work.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Looks like and how that plays out, then a dedication
to learning is the only way to make that happen,
because if we're not learning, we're not growing.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It's so interesting because the three of us just had
a conversation off Mike about busy people and like people
who are busy and people who are just busy people.
It's interesting because I am guilty of probably just not
really learning and just like doing my job and going
home and coming back to work and doing my job
and going home. So how do you kind of incorporate
(07:52):
like active learning or having that mindset of always learning
when you just have so much on your plate just
doing the work.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, we all are obsessed with being busy, right, And
what we don't realize is that the traditional ways learning
have changed so dramatically even in the last five years.
So learning is not only when you're in a classroom.
Learning has listened to a podcast this one. Yeah, preferably
it's starting a new conversation. It's as simple as asking
(08:20):
one smarter question in a meeting. Think about how you
can move those micro moments into your day to day
life and ship your own version of what learning looks like.
Because learning is twenty four to seven, we just don't
necessarily attach a learning moment to a conversation. But I
think the most wonderful conversations are the moments where you
(08:42):
learn the most. And starting a new conversation with someone
who is new to your circle is also a really
incredible way to learn. So don't discount all of those
incidental moments in life, because that is where real learning happens.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I think we've got to be like intentional about it too.
Like when work feels hard, it's usually because there is
that gap or if you think about any moment and
where you're like, oh, this person's hard to work with
or I feel overwhelmed, etc. And the gap is usually
in your tools, your mindset, or your skills right and
learning what you're saying there is what fills that gap.
But I think we have to be quite intentional about it.
(09:19):
And what you're saying am there is like the busy moments.
If I'm busy all the time and I'm overwhelmed, how
to actually build it into what I'm doing with intention
rather than just going I had a conversation we were
learning what do I actually want to be learning? What
would be helpful right now?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, what's really helpful is looking at the business strategy
for twenty thirty and thinking, are my learning goals aligned
with where the business is going? Because if they're not,
where's the gap that I need to fill? Because if
we're not aligned with the business or the industry in
the next five years, we always have to be asking
what is my business or my industry going to value
(09:55):
in terms of skills in the next five or ten years,
And is my learning plan aligned with where the business
is going, because that will reveal to you exactly what
you should be insu And I don't want anyone showing
up applying for a job in twenty thirty with a
CV from twenty twenty two. Yeah, women in particular cannot
(10:15):
ignore the role of learning in their career and their
life journey because the risk is not just professional, it's personal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I think the idea of thinking about learning as problem
solving and you said there, you know it's important for
the business and everything. I think it's also really important
for yourself as well. Like, Yeah, we talk about it's
a lot, and like it's my career. What do I
want out of it? What do I want to be doing?
And therefore, what skills do I need? And how can
I keep it interesting?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Like, sometimes it's so often like blinking in the pursuit
of delivering a project or deliverable or goal, et cetera.
But what for and why? Like what would make it
more interesting?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
What should be interesting to all of us is if
we're really paying attention to those signals of change in
our industry, keeping a very simple eye out on the
short courses that are available on university websites, and I'm
talking about the big university that have you know that
carry probably a disproportionate amount of value in the workplace
or across businesses. So, for example, in twenty seventeen, I
(11:14):
noticed that MIT was running a six week program on
artificial intelligence, and I thought, if MIT values that skill,
now I know that is something that I need to
be paying attention to. So I actually did a six
week program a great expense to myself on AI in
late twenty seventeen. That's Insaneah, totally, yeah, are you serious,
(11:34):
because yeah, it's like, I'm very serious.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
No, it's not psych We all.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Need to be paying attention to signals of change, and
the learning category is where I think the signals show
up first. That is changing because of chat, GIPT and LMS.
But when I saw that MIT was valuing AI back
in twenty seventeen, I thought that is something I need
to do. From that, I took myself to another learning program.
Always invest in learning. By the way, I've spent more
money on learning than I have on anything else. In
(12:02):
my entire life, and I've never regretted it because that
led me to Singularity University at a NASA facility in
California in twenty eighteen, and then I wrote Future Fit, Yeah,
because I wanted to understand how can I help people
figure out how to be an active player in their
own career and an active player in the future of
work whatever.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
That looked like for people.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So I thought it was interesting though, looking back and
recognizing that it was the educational institution that was the
signal of change for me because what they valued was
clearly something that they thought was going to be of
value across the workplace.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
And that was in twenty seventeen. So yeah, how goold.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It's been able to share and use what you've learned
as well.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, because at the time, three thousand US dollars was
it is still a lot of money to me and
to anyone listening, but the value in that was starting
to just blow open what might be possible if this
technology hit us all at scale. And that's the really
interesting thing about a signal. If this is where signals
come into play for all of us, because sometimes our
(13:05):
own behavior can be a signal of change. So For example,
in two thousand and eight, I was living and working
in Washington, DC.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
I was walking to the news bureau and for the
first time in my.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Entire career, I did not pick up a copy of
the newspaper because I was looking at the news headlines
on my phone and I thought, what if ten thousand
people stopped picking up a newspaper?
Speaker 4 (13:26):
What if for midding.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
People stop picking up a newspaper. Here I am a
journalist being paid to produce content that as a consumer,
I am not prepared.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
To pay for.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So I was my own signal of change. And that
was the day I decided to leave journalism, to leave
an amazing career as a television news reporter and correspondent
on Capitol Hill. I was covering White House, State Department, Pentagon.
But I knew my career was going to be in
trouble when I rehearsed the future in my mind and
ran those what if scenarios. I knew that if I
(13:59):
got out of television news reporting, then I would be
probably five to eight years ahead.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Of everyone else.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
But it was only because I recognize the signal of
change and I actually accepted what was happening. Yeah, it's
really easy to be in denial about what's changing around
us because we're so attached to sameness and we're addicted
to our routine. We're not all wired to be visionary.
We are wired for sameness. That's why we order the
same coffee every single day. Right, I challenge anyone to
(14:28):
order a different coffee every single day for the next
seven days and start training your brain to be more adaptable.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
What do you think is like a signal of change
that you actually see so many women in particular just
miss learning.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, it's a some day fans, it's brutal because you
won't understand the impact it has on you.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
For ten years.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I still today have women emailing me saying, you insisted
that I do this program in twenty thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
and it's only because of that that I've gotten as
far as I have, or that I'm as engaged in
my career. And at the same time, I have people
emailing me saying, I can't believe I didn't listen to
you because I went on matt leave. And now I'm
(15:17):
not ten years behind my colleagues, I'm fifteen years behind
my colleagues because I chose to step out of that
engagement with learning, and so now the catch up gap
is more than a decade.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I see it like all the time, you're obviously preaching
to the converted here, Like I love learning and I
do it myself as well a lot, not just talk
about learner and how other people should be learning. But
it will happen in like that to day conversations when
someone will be like, oh, I don't even know what
to say, and I will say I am You could
say X, y Z, yeah, So how do you even
know that? I'm like, well, because I've read this book
or did this thing over there.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That's what I really struggle with telling myself that was
a learning opportunity. It will happen, and the conversation will happen.
I'll see something, I'll read something, and then it's out
of my mind. So how do I recognize that as
a learning opportunity and that's something that I can see
that will also benefit my career.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think, pausing, we all have a lot coming at
us more, right, so, I think the greatest skill we
can have this year is to be decisive. Be decisive
about what kind of future you want to end up in.
Do you want an average future, or do you want
something that's awesome? If you want an awesome future, you've
got to slow down and pause in moments and ask yourself.
(16:29):
I actually normally write this on my hand, what if
what does it mean? Why am I resisting this change?
Or what if this change is not a loss? What
if it's a gain? Like, what's the upside? What if
something that's presenting itself to me now has an upside
and isn't just messing with my day or like disrupting
the way I think about things. So we need to
(16:49):
slow down and prompt ourselves to recognize our own resistance
to change or resistance to something new, and really challenge
ourselves to think, well, what if there is something incredible
that comes out of this.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
What if it's a fresh start, What.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
If it's a new job, What if it's a new circle,
new colleagues, or something that can take me further. Because
we're addicted to sameness and we love routine, that's because
we are wide that way, and so our job is
to interrupt that script. In moments of sameness, many of
us are playing the same game all day long, every
day for five years in a row, and the same
(17:23):
game is not going to get us where we want
to go. That will not get us to a future
that we think is awesome.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
It will just be average.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And you know that's called a probable future and it's
not a disaster, but it's not amazing, and I doubt
it will be a future that really inspires you. So
if we want to be really inspired, we have to
recognize that we need to be an active player and
how change is playing out both around us and also
within us. You know, internally we have different belief systems, values,
(17:50):
We've got things that change, and we've got to reconcile
and bring alignment to that.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I know that moment that you're talking about, m and
there's usually like two questions I ask myself, Like and
it can be like, you know, someone's giving me the
shits at work, or something's happening. It can be quite small.
And the two questions I ask myself and how I
identify what I need to learn or if I have
just learned something, is what's happening for me right now?
And what do I want instead? And then you're like, okay,
well there's a clear gap there, so what am I
(18:14):
going to do about it? And it can be having
a conversation with someone. It can be learning something at MIT,
it can be anything on that spectrum. But if you
ask us two questions of yourself, then you know what
you want to do and what you want to focus on.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It defines the actions.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, for people who are listening to this podcast right
now and they're like, yes, I'm in it. I want
to have those signals of change. I want to learn
if they're working in a company that's constantly playing the
same game, how do they break through that so they get.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Everyone else on board? Oh, such a good question.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I think we need to balance reality with hope. Like,
if you know the culture you are in is not
naturally an innovation space or a space for you to innovate,
then I think that you need to make different decisions
about your career because we all want to be on
a path of consistent growth. Otherwise, be that change that
change in any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And I think also because you've empowered yourself with the
materials that you've learned, you should feel confident.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
To do that. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And I always say to people when they tell me
that there's no learning budget in their workplace, because I
hear that all the time. Well, maybe it's not the
workplace's job to educate you for your entire career. Take responsibility.
Don't buy that dress, don't buy those shoes, and put
that money into a learning budget, because that is what
(19:35):
is going to give your career longevity and also give
you the confidence that you can negotiate change and you
can come up against new things and new opportunities fully
equipped to make the most of any change that presents
itself to you.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's so true. I think there's this great saying from
the Navy Seals, and I'm sure you're familiar with it,
which is under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion,
you sink to the level of your training. Yeah, pretty
much you're describing there.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And no one wants to sink. We all just want
to feel good. Yeah, we want to feel like our
job has meaning and progress. You know, progress is very addictive,
So we only make progress when we are learning and
asking ourselves those tough questions and taking action to close
those gaps in between. The keepers stuck keep us in
the waiting place for way too long.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
One of the biggest blockers I hear, especially with career
shifts or people changing jobs, etc. Is this idea that
you have to feel one hundred percent confident before you start, Like,
once I've done the course, then I'll apply for the role,
or once I have this skill, or when I'm ready
for a new job, that's when I'll start looking. That
one irks me the most, Andrea, how do you help
people take that first step when they're waiting to feel ready.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I don't think any of us ever feel ready for anything.
I think that courage brings clarity. So be courageous in
your stepping forward and know that taking action is the
greatest confidence booster available to all of us, even if
it's a micro step forward. I can't tell you how
many people say to me now that I'm not author,
(21:04):
how many people say, I've always wanted to write a book,
tell me all about it, you know. So what I
say is just start writing, Like, write five hundred words
a day, Write a hundred words a day. Do anything
that gets you out of your mind and onto the page.
Take one micro step and try to make a habit
of it. Try to do that for half an hour
(21:24):
every morning. And you're not going to like this, but
I always say, if you want to write, the best
time to write is before everyone else is awake, because
it feels like such a sense of freedom in that.
So get up an hour earlier and just try to
bash out five hundred words. That micro step is quite
magnetic when it comes to pushing you forward to where
(21:45):
you want to go.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
God watch me churn out three books.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I was actually just thinking of, you could.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Write a book the most fun thing you'll ever do
in your life.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So wow.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
I mean writing is writing is.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
A discovery tour. That's how I look at it. And
I think anytime you really love something, it doesn't matter
what it is, You're on this constant discovery tour about yourself.
And that's what I love about when I think about
my own future, the questions that that brings up for me.
What am I naturally resisting versus where do I naturally
want to go? And what's that friction in between? And
how do I sort of how do I sort out
(22:21):
that friction and explore that? So just look at every
micro move as a discovery tour of yourself. Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love that, And I really resonate with what you
said because I get the same question of I've always
wanted to start my own business and like did you
see that? There was like twelve months of me planning
and preparing and taking micro steps before it even launched. Like,
there's a lot that goes in behind the scenes. So
I'm a big believer of like testing things out, experimenting
taking another step in that direction exactly like you've described.
(22:48):
So then decide if you even want to be an
author or if you want to start a business totally
going or liam.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It's how do you turn an experiment into evidence? That's
what you want to do. You want to sit down
and write for half an hour every morning at five
am for a week, and if you don't like it,
dump it and move on to something else. Because the
number of people who say to me, I've been writing
a book for five years, and I just say stop, stop,
you're obviously years Yeah, I say, you obviously don't want
to write a book if it's taking you that long, now, wow.
(23:14):
I can speak from the benefit of experience because as
a journalist I was on deadline every day for seventeen years.
If it's taking you too long to do something, maybe
just let it go and move on to something else,
or you know, come back to it five years later.
But do what if you can to shift from an experiment,
turn an experiment into evidence, and take that as a
data point.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And it doesn't even have to be as full on
as like launching your business or writing a book. Right, Like,
we could be talking about, Hey, I'm really interested in
becoming an interior designer. Maybe I'm going to talk to
someone who's an interior designer and that can be my
first step, and I'm just starting to chip away it
from there.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
You don't have to go all in.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think it's really important to take a gradual approach,
especially if you're transitioning from one career to another.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Try it as a side hustle.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Because I feel like a lot of people see the
end product and it's beautiful and shining, and they're like, oh,
I can also write a book, And then you have
to be like, no, you know, I actually wrote to
this right, Like it actually took time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Do you know what? I wish more people talked about
the process and the leader. Yes, rather than going, oh
my gosh, you've written a book, you've launched a business,
You've got this amazing job. Let's talk about the twelve
months before then, where I was preparing myself or chipping
away or what I was doing. There's this great quote
in your book that was you can't outsource your personal development.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
M M. That sounds about right.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
When I read that, I was like, I had to
read it three times. That's true. You cannot outsource your
own career. You can't outsource your own personal.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
What would you want to Yeah, who wants to do?
I don't want to leave my career in the hands
of someone else. I saved for a year to send
myself to Harvard for a week. I did a twenty
five thousand dollars a week at Harvard, which also had
an enormous impact on my life. The payoff is every
day of my life after that program finished, because I'm
still in touch on a WhatsApp group with the alumni.
And this is the great thing about when we talk
(24:56):
about learning social learning. Start a What's App group with
five people and ask them to invite five other people
and have clear rules of engagement. Never underestimate the power
of an alumni in whatever form that might take, whether
it's from an executive education program or whether it's from
a group of girlfriends that or just want to lift
one another. Always be looking at what the options are
(25:17):
to take yourself further down that discovery tour of who
you are.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I feel like I should put a big, massive asterisk
on this though, because this might be too HYPEA personality's
vibing here.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
I'm just letting you go that story right now.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
What can we do to make it feel more manageable
in the day to day when people are feeling busy
and they're like, I've got all these other things on,
I don't really know where I'm starting. What can I do?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
First of all, value it?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, First of all, be that person who shows up
for a job interview in twenty thirty with a CV
that's aligned with twenty thirty. Be that person don't show
up with a twenty twenty two resume. And then do
things like habitstack like when you're working out, listen to
a podcast, do anything that allows you to be involved.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
In your learning journey.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
That could be small, it could be big, but get started.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I had this recently. All was actually last year. I
was like, oh, I don't have time to read, and
I love to read, and so I shared this with
you before. I now buy a physical book and also
download it on my phone. And so whenever there's a moment.
Then I'm able to keep going, so there's no barriers
in the way what you're describing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I am now even reading five pages at a time,
So if I'm doom scrolling, I'll catch myself and say,
wouldn't this just be in much better use of time
I was reading considering the number of books on my
desk at the moment.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It's so hard getting out of that brain right, scroll
though so bad, but I just feels so good.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But I don't want my brain to I don't want
to go backwards. I'm really concerned about what doom scrolling
does to my attention span, so I try to replace
those kinds of habits. What I do is carry a
book with me now, so when I'm waiting for an uber,
I'm less tempted to doom scroll, and I'm more tempted
(27:05):
to pick up and even just to five pages at
a time.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Micro learning is a real thing. Whew, who knew? I knew?
Oh gosh, So, Andrea, we like to wrap up with
what we call our out, so em and I do.
At the end of that, we're kicking you out. Okay,
we're not kicking one useful thing, yes, so we want
to leave everyone with a one useful thing that they
can go away in action. Anyone who's going I want
(27:30):
more control? I do want to learn? What can I
do here?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
What is a signal of change that you can start
tracking today? Think about what that looks like. What is
anything that is going to reshape the way you work
or you live? Track that signal and ask yourself, what
does that signal request of me today? What's the opportunity
(27:54):
if I follow it and make decisions around that? Or
what is the cost if I don't?
Speaker 4 (28:00):
How can I take action on that?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
What's the cost of ignoring a signal of change versus
what is the advantage that gives me if I start
paying attention to that? Now, if you can recognize signals
of change, you can be five years ahead of your
industry and everyone else, and hopefully you're bringing other people
with you along the way.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
There's a tree analogy in your book.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
The Adaptive Cycle, Jamie Miller. I actually can't really do
it justice, but it's a remarkable way to look at
how we can adapt. And when you think about nature,
you think about a leaf falling off a tree. It
absorbs into the soil and then turns into something else.
And so we need to look at ourselves in our
careers in that form of an adaptive cycle, like look
(28:43):
at it really draw a parallel between nature and the
way that we work and live. And so how do
we renew, regenerate, release what we no longer need in
order to move forward? Recognizing what is no longer fit
for purpose, and thinking about what do we need to
let go of in order to make room for what's
coming next. We need to clear space in our brain
(29:05):
from what's coming next. So call it unlearning, call it release,
and call it whatever you will. But that's a really
simple four step kind of principle that I use when
I think about my career and how I want to
approach life in general.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I might have to let go of a little
bit of doom scrowling just a little bit, yes, love it, yes, yes, please.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I just know that whoever's listening to this podcast, even
if they're on a walk, they'll just be like scribbling
that note right now.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Thank you. That is all for this week's episode of Biers.
Thanks for spending part of your day with us. We
know you're juggling deadlines and meetings, so we don't take
it lightly.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Quick PSA for the BIZ fam. Want to get a
deal and make a difference, say less. Sign up to
Mama Mia this week using our link and you'll get
twenty percent off. The best part, we're matching that twenty
percent with a donation to Rise Up, supporting women impacted
by domestic violence.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
The code is.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Give back BIZ. That's gave Back bi Z and it's
valid until August twenty fourth. All of our details will
be in the show notes, and if you want more
content from us, you can always follow us on Instagram
at Biz buye Mama Mia. We also have a free
newsletter which I say every single week. There'll be a
link in our show notes. Click it, sign up. We
will have everything you need from this episode.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Business produced by Sophie Campbell with audio by Leah Porges.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
And we'll be back next week with more no nonsense
work chat. Until then, back yourself, ask for everything that
you want, and remember even the most confident people are
figuring out as they go.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Like us, Exactly like us. See next time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Bye, Mamma MEA acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
(31:22):
waters that this podcast is recorded on
You're listening to a Mum with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to Bierz. Your work life sorted.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm even and I'm Lesa Lye so em Today I
want to ask you, when was the last time you
looked at a work challenge and thought this is a
chance to grow instead of Oh, why me? Why is
this happening?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know me well enough to know exactly what the
answer is. It's been like years since I've said this
is a time to grow, a chance to grow.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You didn't get a T shirt with them together.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Everything's a learning opportunity. I haven't said that in a really,
really long time. I feel like I always avoid doing
that because I'm so scared of slipping into that workaholic
mode We've talked about before, that hustle culture, and I
just completely go the opposite way.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, and I don't think like learning and hustle culture
have to go together. But in a world where industries
and roles can shift totally overnight, staying in debt will
feels more like survival and being relevant as well. The
people driving art necessarily the smartest as well. I think
they're the ones who see every curveball as a learning opportunity,
which counts so forced, but a moment ago, I actually
(01:15):
learned something here and I'm better for it.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Which is also why I am very, very excited for
an episode today because we actually have a guest on
this episode. It's a little bit rare for us, but
we have a guest in here in the studio. Least
tell me about our guest.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So Andrew Clark has spent her career helping people adapt fast.
She has broadcast in war zones, and she's also written
a couple of books about future ready careers. Just a
small career, just a couple of things there. She doesn't
believe in waiting until you're ready to grow, which I
love about her, and she talks a lot about this
in this episode today. She says, the most powerful thing
you can do is take action before you feel one
(01:49):
hundred percent confident.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So if you are ready to turn I mean, according
to Ana, you don't even have to be ready. If
you're ready to turn every challenge into a growth opportunity
and build learning into your career. This conversation is for you, Andrea,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So we've all had that moment where you're in a
job or even a whole career path. And from the outside,
everything looks fine. You're ticking the boxes, feedbacks, good salary, steady,
but something just feels, I don't know, like a bit off. Yeah,
like you're running out of energy for it or worse,
I think you're hit at bad point. Now if you're
starting to dread Monday mornings, the Sunday scaries. Yeah, for
(02:28):
Sunday scary. So how do you know when that feeling
is actually a sign or a signal? As Andrea likes
to say, that you should make a change and not
just push through. And what if nothing's actually wrong, you're
just having a moment. Because we all have moments, Andrea,
what are the real signs someone should be watching for
that say like it's time to rethink this. And what
are people often ignore until it's too late.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
The first sign is the mutual value exchange. Now, a
mutual value exchange is that balance that you have with
an employer. Now, I get paid to come to work,
I come to work, I deliver the work. That's a
mutual value exchange. Now, when that has been out of
balance for too long, that's usually when we feel like
(03:10):
something needs to change here. I need a bit of
a rethink. So unless there's something to address with your employer,
it might be something internal, it might be something external.
But I would encourage everyone listening to think about has
this mutual value to exchange run its course in some form?
And if it has, what then is my next step?
(03:31):
Do I have to address something within myself or is
it something that I have to address in the workplace?
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Makes sense?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, how would you know that if it's run its course?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think that's a gut feeling. I think we've all
stayed in relationships for too long where we know that'd
been guilty. Yeah, it's something that only you can make
that call on. It's a gut feel, it's instinct, it's intuition,
call it whatever you want to call it. But we
all know when something is run its course. And I
feel that it's very important to especially from a workplace
(04:02):
or a job, to exit on a high leave when
it's good. Yeah, leave something on the table for someone else.
I think that's a very generous way to look at
a career. And I worked in media for many years,
and I make this observation of other people and myself,
how long am I willing to stay on this sort
(04:24):
of career or job high for or is there an
opportunity for me to step aside, move on to something
else and be generous leave something on the table.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah? Is this comfort like always a red flag though,
Like sometimes I feel like we are uncomfortable through change,
or we're uncomfortable when we're learning something for the first time,
and sometimes people go, well stuff that, like I'm out,
this is too hard. Where's that line where you're actually
learning versus like full redplaate like the middle ground.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, you've got to feel stretched, right, we can sit
in this comfort zone, and I've got a friend Lisa
Stevenson who calls it the waiting place. Like, we can
sit in this waiting place for an extended period of time.
It's up to us to demonstrate the agency to move
out and to find something new. So I think the
balance again comes back to how often do I feel
like I'm stretching myself or do I feel like I'm
(05:15):
sitting in the waiting place or this comfort zone. How
long are we sitting in that place for? Because I
think that for me is a signal and I know
that if I you know, if I just generally feel
like the future version of myself.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
If I'm not.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Excited about that future version of myself that's usually assigned
to me when I need to, you know, look beyond
and think about what can I learn to adapt Because
learning and adapting goes. I mean, that's a cycle. It's
a beautiful positive loop that just keeps going around and around,
and you've got to make the call when you need
to learn something new because you're paying attention to those
signals have changed. And I think that is something that
(05:50):
we don't talk about enough. The shelf life of our careers,
the shelf life of skills is getting shorter and our
careers are getting longer, and so the only way to
close that gap continually is by actively learning and paying
attention to what you are learning. So if you don't
feel as though you're learning any thing, then you're in
the waiting place for too long.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
And maybe that's a signal.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I have so many friends who are like, oh, I
don't really like my job, or I'll find another job soon,
like the timing's not quite right. What do you suggest
they kind of ask themselves or think through if they're
in this waiting place?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Do you talk about I think the most dangerous thing
we can do right now is ignore the role of learning,
because if we're not learning, we're standing still, and in
this very dynamic work environment, standing still is the equivalent
to falling behind. And so when we stop learning, I
believe that we stop expanding our voice, our ability to influence,
(06:45):
and the impact that we can have on ourselves and others.
And so I don't believe that learning is a luxury.
I believe that it is power. And we need to
reposition learning within ourselves and within the workplace because it
builds career insurance, it strengthens personal agency, and it gives
us more options for the future, and that is a
(07:08):
place that we want to be. I want to end
up in my own version of the future. I don't
want to end up in someone else's. And so if
you want to have a continuing voice on.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
What your own future of work.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Looks like and how that plays out, then a dedication
to learning is the only way to make that happen,
because if we're not learning, we're not growing.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It's so interesting because the three of us just had
a conversation off Mike about busy people and like people
who are busy and people who are just busy people.
It's interesting because I am guilty of probably just not
really learning and just like doing my job and going
home and coming back to work and doing my job
and going home. So how do you kind of incorporate
(07:52):
like active learning or having that mindset of always learning
when you just have so much on your plate just
doing the work.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, we all are obsessed with being busy, right, And
what we don't realize is that the traditional ways learning
have changed so dramatically even in the last five years.
So learning is not only when you're in a classroom.
Learning has listened to a podcast this one. Yeah, preferably
it's starting a new conversation. It's as simple as asking
(08:20):
one smarter question in a meeting. Think about how you
can move those micro moments into your day to day
life and ship your own version of what learning looks like.
Because learning is twenty four to seven, we just don't
necessarily attach a learning moment to a conversation. But I
think the most wonderful conversations are the moments where you
(08:42):
learn the most. And starting a new conversation with someone
who is new to your circle is also a really
incredible way to learn. So don't discount all of those
incidental moments in life, because that is where real learning happens.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I think we've got to be like intentional about it too.
Like when work feels hard, it's usually because there is
that gap or if you think about any moment and
where you're like, oh, this person's hard to work with
or I feel overwhelmed, etc. And the gap is usually
in your tools, your mindset, or your skills right and
learning what you're saying there is what fills that gap.
But I think we have to be quite intentional about it.
(09:19):
And what you're saying am there is like the busy moments.
If I'm busy all the time and I'm overwhelmed, how
to actually build it into what I'm doing with intention
rather than just going I had a conversation we were
learning what do I actually want to be learning? What
would be helpful right now?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, what's really helpful is looking at the business strategy
for twenty thirty and thinking, are my learning goals aligned
with where the business is going? Because if they're not,
where's the gap that I need to fill? Because if
we're not aligned with the business or the industry in
the next five years, we always have to be asking
what is my business or my industry going to value
(09:55):
in terms of skills in the next five or ten years,
And is my learning plan aligned with where the business
is going, because that will reveal to you exactly what
you should be insu And I don't want anyone showing
up applying for a job in twenty thirty with a
CV from twenty twenty two. Yeah, women in particular cannot
(10:15):
ignore the role of learning in their career and their
life journey because the risk is not just professional, it's personal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I think the idea of thinking about learning as problem
solving and you said there, you know it's important for
the business and everything. I think it's also really important
for yourself as well. Like, Yeah, we talk about it's
a lot, and like it's my career. What do I
want out of it? What do I want to be doing?
And therefore, what skills do I need? And how can
I keep it interesting?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Like, sometimes it's so often like blinking in the pursuit
of delivering a project or deliverable or goal, et cetera.
But what for and why? Like what would make it
more interesting?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
What should be interesting to all of us is if
we're really paying attention to those signals of change in
our industry, keeping a very simple eye out on the
short courses that are available on university websites, and I'm
talking about the big university that have you know that
carry probably a disproportionate amount of value in the workplace
or across businesses. So, for example, in twenty seventeen, I
(11:14):
noticed that MIT was running a six week program on
artificial intelligence, and I thought, if MIT values that skill,
now I know that is something that I need to
be paying attention to. So I actually did a six
week program a great expense to myself on AI in
late twenty seventeen. That's Insaneah, totally, yeah, are you serious,
(11:34):
because yeah, it's like, I'm very serious.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
No, it's not psych We all.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Need to be paying attention to signals of change, and
the learning category is where I think the signals show
up first. That is changing because of chat, GIPT and LMS.
But when I saw that MIT was valuing AI back
in twenty seventeen, I thought that is something I need
to do. From that, I took myself to another learning program.
Always invest in learning. By the way, I've spent more
money on learning than I have on anything else. In
(12:02):
my entire life, and I've never regretted it because that
led me to Singularity University at a NASA facility in
California in twenty eighteen, and then I wrote Future Fit, Yeah,
because I wanted to understand how can I help people
figure out how to be an active player in their
own career and an active player in the future of
work whatever.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
That looked like for people.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
So I thought it was interesting though, looking back and
recognizing that it was the educational institution that was the
signal of change for me because what they valued was
clearly something that they thought was going to be of
value across the workplace.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
And that was in twenty seventeen. So yeah, how goold.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It's been able to share and use what you've learned
as well.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, because at the time, three thousand US dollars was
it is still a lot of money to me and
to anyone listening, but the value in that was starting
to just blow open what might be possible if this
technology hit us all at scale. And that's the really
interesting thing about a signal. If this is where signals
come into play for all of us, because sometimes our
(13:05):
own behavior can be a signal of change. So For example,
in two thousand and eight, I was living and working
in Washington, DC.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
I was walking to the news bureau and for the
first time in my.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Entire career, I did not pick up a copy of
the newspaper because I was looking at the news headlines
on my phone and I thought, what if ten thousand
people stopped picking up a newspaper?
Speaker 4 (13:26):
What if for midding.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
People stop picking up a newspaper. Here I am a
journalist being paid to produce content that as a consumer,
I am not prepared.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
To pay for.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So I was my own signal of change. And that
was the day I decided to leave journalism, to leave
an amazing career as a television news reporter and correspondent
on Capitol Hill. I was covering White House, State Department, Pentagon.
But I knew my career was going to be in
trouble when I rehearsed the future in my mind and
ran those what if scenarios. I knew that if I
(13:59):
got out of television news reporting, then I would be
probably five to eight years ahead.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Of everyone else.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
But it was only because I recognize the signal of
change and I actually accepted what was happening. Yeah, it's
really easy to be in denial about what's changing around
us because we're so attached to sameness and we're addicted
to our routine. We're not all wired to be visionary.
We are wired for sameness. That's why we order the
same coffee every single day. Right, I challenge anyone to
(14:28):
order a different coffee every single day for the next
seven days and start training your brain to be more adaptable.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
What do you think is like a signal of change
that you actually see so many women in particular just
miss learning.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, it's a some day fans, it's brutal because you
won't understand the impact it has on you.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
For ten years.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I still today have women emailing me saying, you insisted
that I do this program in twenty thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
and it's only because of that that I've gotten as
far as I have, or that I'm as engaged in
my career. And at the same time, I have people
emailing me saying, I can't believe I didn't listen to
you because I went on matt leave. And now I'm
(15:17):
not ten years behind my colleagues, I'm fifteen years behind
my colleagues because I chose to step out of that
engagement with learning, and so now the catch up gap
is more than a decade.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I see it like all the time, you're obviously preaching
to the converted here, Like I love learning and I
do it myself as well a lot, not just talk
about learner and how other people should be learning. But
it will happen in like that to day conversations when
someone will be like, oh, I don't even know what
to say, and I will say I am You could
say X, y Z, yeah, So how do you even
know that? I'm like, well, because I've read this book
or did this thing over there.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That's what I really struggle with telling myself that was
a learning opportunity. It will happen, and the conversation will happen.
I'll see something, I'll read something, and then it's out
of my mind. So how do I recognize that as
a learning opportunity and that's something that I can see
that will also benefit my career.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think, pausing, we all have a lot coming at
us more, right, so, I think the greatest skill we
can have this year is to be decisive. Be decisive
about what kind of future you want to end up in.
Do you want an average future, or do you want
something that's awesome? If you want an awesome future, you've
got to slow down and pause in moments and ask yourself.
(16:29):
I actually normally write this on my hand, what if
what does it mean? Why am I resisting this change?
Or what if this change is not a loss? What
if it's a gain? Like, what's the upside? What if
something that's presenting itself to me now has an upside
and isn't just messing with my day or like disrupting
the way I think about things. So we need to
(16:49):
slow down and prompt ourselves to recognize our own resistance
to change or resistance to something new, and really challenge
ourselves to think, well, what if there is something incredible
that comes out of this.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
What if it's a fresh start, What.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
If it's a new job, What if it's a new circle,
new colleagues, or something that can take me further. Because
we're addicted to sameness and we love routine, that's because
we are wide that way, and so our job is
to interrupt that script. In moments of sameness, many of
us are playing the same game all day long, every
day for five years in a row, and the same
(17:23):
game is not going to get us where we want
to go. That will not get us to a future
that we think is awesome.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
It will just be average.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And you know that's called a probable future and it's
not a disaster, but it's not amazing, and I doubt
it will be a future that really inspires you. So
if we want to be really inspired, we have to
recognize that we need to be an active player and
how change is playing out both around us and also
within us. You know, internally we have different belief systems, values,
(17:50):
We've got things that change, and we've got to reconcile
and bring alignment to that.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I know that moment that you're talking about, m and
there's usually like two questions I ask myself, Like and
it can be like, you know, someone's giving me the
shits at work, or something's happening. It can be quite small.
And the two questions I ask myself and how I
identify what I need to learn or if I have
just learned something, is what's happening for me right now?
And what do I want instead? And then you're like, okay,
well there's a clear gap there, so what am I
(18:14):
going to do about it? And it can be having
a conversation with someone. It can be learning something at MIT,
it can be anything on that spectrum. But if you
ask us two questions of yourself, then you know what
you want to do and what you want to focus on.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
It defines the actions.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, for people who are listening to this podcast right
now and they're like, yes, I'm in it. I want
to have those signals of change. I want to learn
if they're working in a company that's constantly playing the
same game, how do they break through that so they get.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Everyone else on board? Oh, such a good question.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I think we need to balance reality with hope. Like,
if you know the culture you are in is not
naturally an innovation space or a space for you to innovate,
then I think that you need to make different decisions
about your career because we all want to be on
a path of consistent growth. Otherwise, be that change that
change in any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
And I think also because you've empowered yourself with the
materials that you've learned, you should feel confident.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
To do that. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And I always say to people when they tell me
that there's no learning budget in their workplace, because I
hear that all the time. Well, maybe it's not the
workplace's job to educate you for your entire career. Take responsibility.
Don't buy that dress, don't buy those shoes, and put
that money into a learning budget, because that is what
(19:35):
is going to give your career longevity and also give
you the confidence that you can negotiate change and you
can come up against new things and new opportunities fully
equipped to make the most of any change that presents
itself to you.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's so true. I think there's this great saying from
the Navy Seals, and I'm sure you're familiar with it,
which is under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion,
you sink to the level of your training. Yeah, pretty
much you're describing there.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And no one wants to sink. We all just want
to feel good. Yeah, we want to feel like our
job has meaning and progress. You know, progress is very addictive,
So we only make progress when we are learning and
asking ourselves those tough questions and taking action to close
those gaps in between. The keepers stuck keep us in
the waiting place for way too long.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
One of the biggest blockers I hear, especially with career
shifts or people changing jobs, etc. Is this idea that
you have to feel one hundred percent confident before you start, Like,
once I've done the course, then I'll apply for the role,
or once I have this skill, or when I'm ready
for a new job, that's when I'll start looking. That
one irks me the most, Andrea, how do you help
people take that first step when they're waiting to feel ready.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I don't think any of us ever feel ready for anything.
I think that courage brings clarity. So be courageous in
your stepping forward and know that taking action is the
greatest confidence booster available to all of us, even if
it's a micro step forward. I can't tell you how
many people say to me now that I'm not author,
(21:04):
how many people say, I've always wanted to write a book,
tell me all about it, you know. So what I
say is just start writing, Like, write five hundred words
a day, Write a hundred words a day. Do anything
that gets you out of your mind and onto the page.
Take one micro step and try to make a habit
of it. Try to do that for half an hour
(21:24):
every morning. And you're not going to like this, but
I always say, if you want to write, the best
time to write is before everyone else is awake, because
it feels like such a sense of freedom in that.
So get up an hour earlier and just try to
bash out five hundred words. That micro step is quite
magnetic when it comes to pushing you forward to where
(21:45):
you want to go.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
God watch me churn out three books.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I was actually just thinking of, you could.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Write a book the most fun thing you'll ever do
in your life.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So wow.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
I mean writing is writing is.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
A discovery tour. That's how I look at it. And
I think anytime you really love something, it doesn't matter
what it is, You're on this constant discovery tour about yourself.
And that's what I love about when I think about
my own future, the questions that that brings up for me.
What am I naturally resisting versus where do I naturally
want to go? And what's that friction in between? And
how do I sort of how do I sort out
(22:21):
that friction and explore that? So just look at every
micro move as a discovery tour of yourself. Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I love that, And I really resonate with what you
said because I get the same question of I've always
wanted to start my own business and like did you
see that? There was like twelve months of me planning
and preparing and taking micro steps before it even launched. Like,
there's a lot that goes in behind the scenes. So
I'm a big believer of like testing things out, experimenting
taking another step in that direction exactly like you've described.
(22:48):
So then decide if you even want to be an
author or if you want to start a business totally
going or liam.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It's how do you turn an experiment into evidence? That's
what you want to do. You want to sit down
and write for half an hour every morning at five
am for a week, and if you don't like it,
dump it and move on to something else. Because the
number of people who say to me, I've been writing
a book for five years, and I just say stop, stop,
you're obviously years Yeah, I say, you obviously don't want
to write a book if it's taking you that long, now, wow.
(23:14):
I can speak from the benefit of experience because as
a journalist I was on deadline every day for seventeen years.
If it's taking you too long to do something, maybe
just let it go and move on to something else,
or you know, come back to it five years later.
But do what if you can to shift from an experiment,
turn an experiment into evidence, and take that as a
data point.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
And it doesn't even have to be as full on
as like launching your business or writing a book. Right, Like,
we could be talking about, Hey, I'm really interested in
becoming an interior designer. Maybe I'm going to talk to
someone who's an interior designer and that can be my
first step, and I'm just starting to chip away it
from there.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
You don't have to go all in.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think it's really important to take a gradual approach,
especially if you're transitioning from one career to another.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Try it as a side hustle.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Because I feel like a lot of people see the
end product and it's beautiful and shining, and they're like, oh,
I can also write a book, And then you have
to be like, no, you know, I actually wrote to
this right, Like it actually took time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Do you know what? I wish more people talked about
the process and the leader. Yes, rather than going, oh
my gosh, you've written a book, you've launched a business,
You've got this amazing job. Let's talk about the twelve
months before then, where I was preparing myself or chipping
away or what I was doing. There's this great quote
in your book that was you can't outsource your personal development.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
M M. That sounds about right.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
When I read that, I was like, I had to
read it three times. That's true. You cannot outsource your
own career. You can't outsource your own personal.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
What would you want to Yeah, who wants to do?
I don't want to leave my career in the hands
of someone else. I saved for a year to send
myself to Harvard for a week. I did a twenty
five thousand dollars a week at Harvard, which also had
an enormous impact on my life. The payoff is every
day of my life after that program finished, because I'm
still in touch on a WhatsApp group with the alumni.
And this is the great thing about when we talk
(24:56):
about learning social learning. Start a What's App group with
five people and ask them to invite five other people
and have clear rules of engagement. Never underestimate the power
of an alumni in whatever form that might take, whether
it's from an executive education program or whether it's from
a group of girlfriends that or just want to lift
one another. Always be looking at what the options are
(25:17):
to take yourself further down that discovery tour of who
you are.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I feel like I should put a big, massive asterisk
on this though, because this might be too HYPEA personality's
vibing here.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
I'm just letting you go that story right now.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
What can we do to make it feel more manageable
in the day to day when people are feeling busy
and they're like, I've got all these other things on,
I don't really know where I'm starting. What can I do?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
First of all, value it?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, First of all, be that person who shows up
for a job interview in twenty thirty with a CV
that's aligned with twenty thirty. Be that person don't show
up with a twenty twenty two resume. And then do
things like habitstack like when you're working out, listen to
a podcast, do anything that allows you to be involved.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
In your learning journey.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
That could be small, it could be big, but get started.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I had this recently. All was actually last year. I
was like, oh, I don't have time to read, and
I love to read, and so I shared this with
you before. I now buy a physical book and also
download it on my phone. And so whenever there's a moment.
Then I'm able to keep going, so there's no barriers
in the way what you're describing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I am now even reading five pages at a time,
So if I'm doom scrolling, I'll catch myself and say,
wouldn't this just be in much better use of time
I was reading considering the number of books on my
desk at the moment.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It's so hard getting out of that brain right, scroll
though so bad, but I just feels so good.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But I don't want my brain to I don't want
to go backwards. I'm really concerned about what doom scrolling
does to my attention span, so I try to replace
those kinds of habits. What I do is carry a
book with me now, so when I'm waiting for an uber,
I'm less tempted to doom scroll, and I'm more tempted
(27:05):
to pick up and even just to five pages at
a time.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Micro learning is a real thing. Whew, who knew? I knew?
Oh gosh, So, Andrea, we like to wrap up with
what we call our out, so em and I do.
At the end of that, we're kicking you out. Okay,
we're not kicking one useful thing, yes, so we want
to leave everyone with a one useful thing that they
can go away in action. Anyone who's going I want
(27:30):
more control? I do want to learn? What can I
do here?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
What is a signal of change that you can start
tracking today? Think about what that looks like. What is
anything that is going to reshape the way you work
or you live? Track that signal and ask yourself, what
does that signal request of me today? What's the opportunity
(27:54):
if I follow it and make decisions around that? Or
what is the cost if I don't?
Speaker 4 (28:00):
How can I take action on that?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
What's the cost of ignoring a signal of change versus
what is the advantage that gives me if I start
paying attention to that? Now, if you can recognize signals
of change, you can be five years ahead of your
industry and everyone else, and hopefully you're bringing other people
with you along the way.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
There's a tree analogy in your book.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
The Adaptive Cycle, Jamie Miller. I actually can't really do
it justice, but it's a remarkable way to look at
how we can adapt. And when you think about nature,
you think about a leaf falling off a tree. It
absorbs into the soil and then turns into something else.
And so we need to look at ourselves in our
careers in that form of an adaptive cycle, like look
(28:43):
at it really draw a parallel between nature and the
way that we work and live. And so how do
we renew, regenerate, release what we no longer need in
order to move forward? Recognizing what is no longer fit
for purpose, and thinking about what do we need to
let go of in order to make room for what's
coming next. We need to clear space in our brain
(29:05):
from what's coming next. So call it unlearning, call it release,
and call it whatever you will. But that's a really
simple four step kind of principle that I use when
I think about my career and how I want to
approach life in general.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I might have to let go of a little
bit of doom scrowling just a little bit, yes, love it, yes, yes, please.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I just know that whoever's listening to this podcast, even
if they're on a walk, they'll just be like scribbling
that note right now.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Thank you. That is all for this week's episode of Biers.
Thanks for spending part of your day with us. We
know you're juggling deadlines and meetings, so we don't take
it lightly.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Quick PSA for the BIZ fam. Want to get a
deal and make a difference, say less. Sign up to
Mama Mia this week using our link and you'll get
twenty percent off. The best part, we're matching that twenty
percent with a donation to Rise Up, supporting women impacted
by domestic violence.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
The code is.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Give back BIZ. That's gave Back bi Z and it's
valid until August twenty fourth. All of our details will
be in the show notes, and if you want more
content from us, you can always follow us on Instagram
at Biz buye Mama Mia. We also have a free
newsletter which I say every single week. There'll be a
link in our show notes. Click it, sign up. We
will have everything you need from this episode.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Business produced by Sophie Campbell with audio by Leah Porges.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
And we'll be back next week with more no nonsense
work chat. Until then, back yourself, ask for everything that
you want, and remember even the most confident people are
figuring out as they go.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Like us, Exactly like us. See next time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Bye, Mamma MEA acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
(31:22):
waters that this podcast is recorded on
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.