September 2, 2024 • 46 mins
Angelina Jolie has no friends. Is that a problem? We unpack a recent interview that Jolie did while promoting her new film Maria, and how our friendships impact not just you, but also the family unit.
Plus, why everywhere you look, there’s a row going on about how much the government should know about your sexuality… We’re explaining the census fuss.
And, a very famous sexy calendar is back, after taking a break in respect for #metoo. We have some thoughts.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: We Just Want This "Season" To Be Over
- Listen: How We Navigate Our Threesome
- Listen: Molly Mae, Divorce & A Very Flawed PR Strategy
- Listen: Unpacking The Olympic Boxing Gender Panic
- Listen to The Spill: Meghan Markle’s Jam Crisis & Angelina Jolie’s Tears
- Enter Lazy Gewl Giveaways here! Use code LAZYHAIR for 20% off a yearly subscription.
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place.
What To Read:
- Listen: Angelina Jolie was asked about her close friendships. She paused, and then talked about her betrayals.
- Read: Jennifer Lopez's first Instagram after splitting from Ben Affleck says everything.
- Read: Before dating Brad Pitt, Ines de Ramon was married to another famous actor.
- Read: Paralympian Haven Shepherd was 14 months old when her parents tried to kill her.
Want to try our new exercise app? Click here to start a seven-day free trial of MOVE by Mamamia
GET IN TOUCH:
Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au
Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message
Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.
Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud
CREDITS:
Hosts: Holly Wainwright, Mia Freedman & Jessie Stephens
Executive Producer: Ruth Devine
Senior Producer: Emeline Gazilas
Audio Production: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out loud. If what women are actually talking
about on Monday, the second of September, I'm Holly Waynwright,
I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And on the show today, Angelina Jolie has no friends?
Is that a problem we discussed?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Maya delivers a monologue.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Also has always been a red flag for me.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Why everywhere you look there's a row going on about
how much the government should know about your sexuality. We're
explaining the census fuss and a very famous sexy calendar
says that it is back post me to sexier than
ever and what is going on with that? But first,
Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
In case you missed it, a paralympian named Ahmed Kelly
has been on an emotional roller coaster after being disqualified
in the heat of his one hundred and fifty meter
medley and then going on to win a silver medal
in the same event. That is a little riddle. How
do you get disqualified and then win a medal.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
It's one of our paralympins, right, Australian.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
He's Australian, very love Ahmed. Kelly swam in the heat
of the medley event and when he looked up at
the board he saw the three letters.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That no swimmer wants to see, DSQ.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
DSQ say you're a commentator. The thing was, though no
one could work out why he was disqualified, not even
the pul side commentator. Kelly, who is missing both arms
below the elbow and both legs, were swimming in the
medley and you're required to swim backstroke, then breaststroke and
(01:58):
then a freestyle lap. Right, that's the last one. Did
you know that in your freestyle lap you can actually
swim freestyle or butterfly? You know how the word is
free style and people choose freestyle because it's the fastest.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
But for Kelly, he was like, I'm gonna swim butterfly.
He's been to four Olympic Games. Like the man knows
the rules. He does anyway, they just qualified him, and then,
following protests from Swimming Australia, he was reinstated and then
went on to win a silver medal in a post
swim interview, Kelly said, I've gone through a lot worse
(02:33):
and it's just been great to represent Australia in a
Paralympic final. I can never get used to it. It's
always a special thing to do. Perspective, perspective and my
favorite thing, I mean, other than watching these phenomenal athletes,
are some of the stories that come out of the Paralympics.
Because I met Kelly spent the first seven years of
his life in an orphanage in Baghdad, and along with
(02:53):
his brother, he was adopted by an Australian humanitarian work
art named Moira Kelly. Both he and his brother were
born with severely disabled limbs and just like many other
babies in Iraq, they had been impacted by chemical warfare.
And this is Kelly's para Olympic Games. He's been there since.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I legine. I mean, if you're not watching the Paralympics,
you're missing out. I was cheering for Dana Krees. She's
twenty two, she's from Victoria. It's her first Paralympics and
she won a bronze medal in the women's javelin F
three four, which was Australia's tenth medal on day four
we are crushing it. At the paralymic we are.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
In sixth place. So again, what Australians like is what
we're doing very well at things? Yeah, and we are
doing very well.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Can I ask a potentially sensitive question all the categories?
So you just said javelin three four? I get confused
about those, right. Sometimes you're watching and you're like, I
don't think I understand what I'm watching.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Is there like a place where.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You can just get across all that stuff? Yes, it's
called Google. I'll send the link after that. I'll send
you a link after the show.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It's true though, because sometimes you watch a swimming race,
I mean you go, oh, these people have varying different disabilities.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, And what's fascinating is watching how they differently approach
the race and you think, you know, who looks like
they're gonna win, and then they don't. But you're right,
there are different categories and there's a very specific system
that goes you know, this is this category, this category.
So we will link in the show notes so that
you can understand Holly on.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The weekend the Venice Film Festival was like an explosion
in a gen x Icon Factory. Nicole Kidman was there,
George Clooney was there, Brad Pitt was there, and they
all looked exactly the same as they always have, just
like I do. And then there was the great Angelina
Joli come Back our Ange as I will forever call her,
was there because she's got her first starring role in
(04:54):
a big deal Oscar Worthy movie in decades. Right, she's
in a biopic of Maria Kallis, who's like the iconic
opera singer from the fifties sixties. The movie got an
eight minute standing ovation. It's directed by the guy who
did Spencer and did Jackie. You know this is all
it's trilogy. This is the last idea of like iconic women.
(05:14):
If you've seen either of those movies, they're artie, they're dark.
That's the vibe of this one. And she sings in it,
and she sings opra. She did all the training.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Can she sing?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Do we know?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Have we ever heard her sing?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
She said something really interesting in the interview. She said
she always loved singing, and she used to sing when
she was younger, and she had a relationship with someone
who was very cruel to her about her singing. So
she stopped. She didn't say who.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That was speaking of, which she did manage while she
was there and getting her eight minutes standing ovation for
the movie, etc. To avoid Brad Pitt, despite Venice being
a very small place thanks to a very carefully curated
PR schedule. Now, look, I could talk about the joy
of seeing Jolie back at work for a week. I
just love her and considering all the shit that's been
(06:00):
thrown at her since her very acrimonious and actually legally
still ongoing split from Pitt.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Thanks to him.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, try to hear me, so dragging it out. We're
not going to go into all the details, of course,
but top line, she alleges that he physically abused her
and some of their six children before they're split eight
years ago now eight years. He's always denied it, and
he claims that she's long been running a smear campaign
against him. She of course, has been raising all those
kids pretty much on her own since that divorce, but
(06:29):
now the youngest of them is sixteen, and so she
is back at work, which is great to see. But
it's actually a comment from Jolie about friendship that started
the conversation we're having today. Because Mea and I have
an ongoing, long standing disagreement about Jolie, and this speaks
to it. As part of the comeback and doubtless an
Oscar campaign, She's doing lots of interviews and this first
(06:49):
one is in the Hollywood Reporter and she was asked
who she trusts, who she calls at three am, and
Jolie said, I don't really have those kind of relationships.
Maybe it's losing your parent young, maybe it's working, maybe
it's being somebody who's been betrayed a lot. I don't
have a lot of those warm, close relationships as much
that I lean on. My mother was very close to me.
(07:11):
I lost her. I've had a few friends over the
years not be there for my family and their hour
of need. I have only a couple of people that
I trust. I want to know Jessie why this is
a bold thing for a woman or maybe even a
person to admit that they don't really have friends.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It is almost the ultimate status symbol to have a
gaggle of girlfriends. We've talked about that before, to kind
of be surrounded by, you know, even the Taylor Swift
example or the contrast it is always made with Angelina Jolie,
which is Jennifer Aniston, and she famously is very close
to Corney Cox. She's very close to Reese Witherspoon. They're
always photographed out.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
She's always going on holiday with her power.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yes. Whereas for Angelina Jolly, that's never been part of
her identity. And it's probably worth acknowledging too that she's
been seen constructed by the tabloids, but also due to
a few plops points in her life, seen as a
bit of not a girl's girl. And that's because, of
(08:13):
course Brad Pitt was married to Anniston when he met Jolly,
but also Billy Bob Thornton, who was with Laura Dern
when he met Angelina Jolly. There's a famous quote by
Laura Dern. I left our home to work on a movie,
and while I was away, my boyfriend got married and
I've never heard from him again. In saying that, as
(08:33):
soon as I saw this quote, I went, duh. She's
a single mum to six kids, like when do you
fit in friendship when you're that busy. She's also an introvert,
like you hear the way that she talks about her
life and her relationships and sometimes I think that family life,
having all those kids can be really good for introverts.
(08:56):
And that's what she said. She's got some beautiful quotes
about like.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Because your life is all at home and you don't
have to leave the house.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, she says, like I never expect to be the
one that everybody understands or likes. And that's okay because
I know who I am and the kids know who
I am. That was in twenty seven and she said,
we're really such a unit. They're the best friends I've
ever had. Nobody in my life has ever stood by
me more.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
She gave birth to her friends.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well like that, Yeah, some of them. I feel a
little bit that way too, although I do have a
lot of female friends, but I've always found it notable
and I'm not part of the crew who is. Oh,
I'm team Jennifer. I think marriage's end. I think Brad
Pitt's the asshole here. You know, it's worth noting that
(09:41):
he's also premiering a movie in Venice, and he chose
this moment to hard launch his relationship at age sixty
with thirty four year old woman called Dennez, who he's
been dating for a while. But he knew that would
pull lots and lots of focus to him away from
her and a diversion.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
It's telling that they're not co parenting. It's telling that
she's done like that the kids have sided with her.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Correct. Yeah, because the kids were not all little when
they split.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
He famously too, does have friends, right. The body thing
with Clooney has been knowing on for decades and he's
in this movie and so it looks like he's got
them in his camp. Yeah. And they're very powerful and likable. Yes,
And Angelina is always the lower Are we scared of
women who are loners?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Whenever a woman says I'm just not a girl's girl,
that immediately makes my hackles go up, because it's a
bit that's sort of I'm just the cool girl, Like
I think the term is a pick may girl who
would prefer to hang with the guys. I just feel
suspicious of that, perhaps because it's something I don't understand.
I absolutely adore women, and I can't imagine not having
(10:44):
close female friends. But just the fact that she's never photographed.
It's not just that she's never photographed, because I understand
how paparazzi photos and photos at Red carpets are not everything.
They're just a tiny part of life. But she never
references other women, and I've always found that interesting and
sort of notable.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I think she's very much a lone wolf.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
She says that she lost her mother and she's been
betray by her father. I think she would probably have,
just from like pop psychology one oh one, probably some
trust issues.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, she talks about that in this interview. And a
couple of other nuggets that I loved were she did
the interview for the Hollywood Reporter in her home, which
I always find extraordinary when celebrities let journalists into their home.
I can't understand why they would do it because it
is so intimate. She's direct, though. The reporter says, can
I ask about the status of your divorce? And she
says no, And then she asks her, well, you've been
(11:40):
in la for a while now, since like twenty sixteen.
You used to travel a lot more, And she says,
I have to stay here because of custody until my
children are eighteen, but the youngest two nearly are and
then I think I'll go and live in Cambodia for
a long time. And that's interesting too. Something we didn't
know that she has to stay there even though the
(12:01):
kids don't see him, that he's prevented her from taking
them out of the country. So I think she's a
complex character.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I think one of the reasons why people are still
fascinated by her because it was interesting to me watching
the gen X celebs at that festival because they are
still around, right, you know, Kidman's in lots of movies
at the moment, She's on lots of covers, she's in
lots of shoots. Clooney and Pitt are trying to make
their buddy stuff still happen after twenty odd years, and
(12:29):
of course they are. They're talented, at the top of
their game, and there's a younger obviously, a younger gen
coming in Hard just Shalow Maze and you know those
guys and Zendeia and everything. It's like, what do you
do with the old movie stars now that we don't
just shuffle them off. One of the reasons I've always
loved Angelina Jolie, and I think the reason why her
image is still interesting is because it is a different
(12:51):
vision of womanhood. Right right from the beginning of her
being famous, She's never played the I'm just like you thing,
which is what we like our celebrities to do. We
like to believe they're just like us. But right from
the beginning with her vials of blood around her neck
and kissing her brother at the Oscars and the extraordinary
weird projects but very offbeat project she takes on. She
(13:11):
directs movies in other languages. She's always trying to shine
spotlights on difficult conflicts that nobody really wants to look
at like she's never been I'm just like you. I
am nothing like you. You are nothing like me. And
I think that whether or not you like that probably
says something about whether or not you feel the need
to connect to somebody to like what they do.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
That's so interesting because.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
She's always been famous, right like her father was. I
imagine that friendships are really difficult to cultivate in that environment,
and maybe if more people were honest, then we would
find that a lot of people that famous are incredibly
isolated well, and.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
A lot of non famous people are. I mean, we
hear from women all the time, don't we that Like
the idea of having this amazing group of girlfriends is
very aspirational, but it's not necessarily a reality for everybody,
and maybe it's important for those people to hear somebody.
I'm not that I'm saying they're sitting around waiting for
Angelina Jolie to validate their life, but for somebody to say, well, actually, no,
(14:10):
that's not what I have.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I received a sub stack this morning from an Helen
Peterson and the subject line was did your parents have friends?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Good question?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
And she's writing a book at the moment, staring a
big project, and that's how she opens the questions that
she has about friendship.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Pretty it's her book about friendship.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Yeah, it's about friendship, and a lot of people are
surprised by that because they're like, oh, that's not something
I think about a lot. But she says that there's
a few things she's pulled out of the data. The
first is that if your parents didn't have friends growing up,
that is a source of deep sadness.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Like, so, you mean if your parents didn't have friends
when you were growing up, it's like your memories of
growing up didn't include.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, so, like you had a sense that your parents
were lonely or isolated or their activities revolved around you.
Not only does that make you sad? To look back on.
But as an adult, a lot of people carry that
and feel almost a lot of pressure, especially with aging parents,
where they just go I've got to look after them.
(15:14):
The other data point was that when they looked at
parents and friendship, more often than not, it was the
mother who was a social architect, and the dad was
more introverted and kind of went along, but it was
the mum doing it. And I thought this was really relevant.
She said, divorce often functions as a pivot point. After
the divorce, one parent often becomes more isolated, so this
(15:37):
is very relevant to Angeline Jollie and I think the
most telling quote was the one you said about I've
had a few friends that were not there in our
moment of need and the divorced families.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I know George Clooney for starting Hollywood chose him.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Hollywood always chose him. They chose him. When he's split
with Jennifer, they chose him. When he's split with Angelina,
they choose him. Hollywood is a boys club, no matter
how you cut it and how it's true much you
think things have.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Changed, but I reckon in real life it's probably often
the bloke who becomes iceler yes, because the stereotype that
the woman is the social organizer is often true, not
necessarily that she gets custody of the friends, because that
depends very much on the circumstances of the split. But
some men have never learnt the skills of how to
build a social life and keep up with people and
keep friendships going and turn up for things. And that's
(16:27):
such an interesting question because my parents always had friends,
and they are very good at friendship. They've held all
their friends and I often feel a bit guilty because
you know, there are people in my life who were
once really good friends but I've kind of lost touch with.
But when I went back for my dad's eightieth they've
got friends there from UNI, which is sixty years ago,
and I'm deeply impressed. Which are good friend role models.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And Helen Peterson says that the real shift is that
now our weekends and our spare time revolves around our children, yes,
our children's activities. Whereas if you've got children, Yeah, memories
that you know gen X might have or I have
is that weekends were spent at my parents' friend's house.
I didn't know the kids. I was put in a
room with a movie on yeah, if there was a
(17:12):
swimming pool, I was just But there were.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
A lot entrepre. You became friends with your parents' friends kids,
and I mean there was a term for it, family friends.
And there's a whole group of people, both the adults
and their kids who I grew up with, who I've
got a real sort of connection to you. I don't
see them more, speak to them, or stay in contact
with the kids necessarily anymore. But they were really strong
(17:36):
parts of your life. Because I didn't spend weekends with
my own friends, I spent them with the kids of
my parents' friends. But that wouldn't happen anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Really, now we've got what she refers to an Helen
Peterson wrote about this a while ago. It's called the
friendship dip, and all the data says the thirties and
forties your lives is not just parenting. Even if you
don't have kids, your life gets really really busy, and
a lot of people exit their forties with not a
lot of friends. And then hopefully as you get older
(18:05):
there's a lot of reconnecting. I see this with people
who are, like, you know, retiring or their kids have
left the house or whatever. There's more time, and I
think they realize as well the importance of friendship. But
I thought with Jolly, she's really in the midst of
that friendship deal.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Although now I'm worried about the six kids because if
Anne Helen Peterson is right and that they're looking at
their m I'm going, why doesn't she have any friends? Yeah? Yeah,
now they'll be all ried burden. They've read about this.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
If you want to hear about Brad Pitt and Angelina
Jolly on the red carpet at the Venice Film Festival
and everything that's happening there, listen to our entertainment podcast
The Spill. We have a link in our show notes,
Mother Loud out.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Louders, Do you want the government to ask you about
your sexuality? What about your gender identity or your genitals?
These were all census questions which were considered by the
Australian Bureau of Statistics for the twenty twenty six senses,
but they were initially rejected for inclusion by the Prime
Minister to avoid a divisive culture war, which is what
(19:09):
he said. Unfortunately this sparked a divisive culture war. Peter
Dutton agreed that the questions shouldn't be included because they
were too woke, and many members of the queer community
were upset because they said the fact the census in
twenty twenty one, which was the last time we had one,
didn't specifically ask about their sexuality or gender identity, or
(19:31):
trans or intersex identity and the makeup of their family.
That made them feel invisible. Then six labor MPs broke
ranks against the Prime Minister and they told Albo to
reverse the decision, and on Friday he did so. Now
one more question will be added on sexual preference, but
there won't be a question on trans and intersex people.
(19:54):
This is what he said.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
We are consistent about having a common sense approach to
these issues. We want to make sure that everyone is valued,
regardless of their gender, their race, their faith, their sexual orientation.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Now I wanted to sort of know what to think
about this. I'm not a member of this community, so
it sort of doesn't really matter what I think, but
I wanted to understand the two sides. And there was
a fantastic column over the weekend by Jacqueline Mayley, who's
one of my favorite columnists, and she sort of outlined
that the arguments against it and let's go into this
assuming that everybody came from a well meaning place. She said.
(20:36):
The reasons that you might not want to have that
question there is that even though the census data is anonymized,
some Australians would object to the government inquiring into a
subject that they considered private. The way that sort of
income I think is pretty private. Marital status is a law.
The tax department has a record of your income. But
maybe you don't want the government asking who you sleep with.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I'm just trying to remember what they do ask at
the moment, right, So they do it every five years,
don't they And they ask you if you're single, married
to facto?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, they ask about religion. I think what they're thinking though,
is is that if you get the census in your household.
This was one of the arguments. Whether or not it's
a strong argument is to be decided. But do you
then look at each of your children depending on you know,
don't know the politics of your family, and say do
you identify as gay or straight or bisexual?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right? Be you flatmate, yes, might be your partner who
is bisexual, but you've never talked about it. I mean
you don't know. And another reason against it is that
coming out on the census form could be particularly risky
for some people who are in conservative religious communities or
living in a non queer friendly household. And when it
(21:47):
comes to trans and intersex people, there are some who
don't want to disclose their anatomy on an Australian Bureau
of Statistics form. The other thing against it is that
every time there's a census, everybody applies to have a
question included about their particular area of interest or their
particular community, and every question that's in there is an
(22:07):
enormous cost. That's where the government has to decide based
on the recommendations by the Australian Bureau Statistics. Yes to
this question, no to that question. If we have this question,
we can't also afford to have that question. It's not
just an endless you can ask whatever you want, and
that's something I didn't realize now the arguments for including it.
I want to read what Jack Malee said. She said
(22:28):
the fact that Albo had said he doesn't want to
cause division, she said, to lay the blame for those conflicts,
which she agrees are real. I mean, we just had
to see what happened with the Olympics and the boxer
and these things can cause hostility and division, which can
be very harmful. She says, to imply that even talking
(22:50):
about those issues is creating social division is regressive, and
it's also not fair to put that responsibility on that community.
And she says, one person's woke agenda is another person's
idea of inclusion, and it's a debate that needs to
be had respectfully. And she basically says it's a government's
job to lead us through this division, not to say, oh,
(23:11):
there's division, we're not going to talk about it because
it'll make things worse. It's like, well, that's your job
is to lead the way.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Surely, I found the government's response to why the question
wasn't included to be incredibly unsatisfying. So and I thought
that this was a fairly good point that it had
sort of been promised that there would be a question
in there. So there was a commitment from the government
to include LGBTQ plus Australians in the consultation and planning
(23:42):
process for the twenty twenty six census, and to ensure
that the census gathers relevant data on these Australians, so
when they didn't do it, and then the community said, hey,
why didn't you do it? I was all is because
I went, oh, I'm sure there's a rational but it
was basically, we don't want to be divisive, we don't
(24:03):
want that to be around yeah, which I just thought, well,
that's not a very good answer.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
People can get very distressed if they feel they're being
made to be invisible. You know, so much progress has
been made with same sex marriage and a much greater
social understanding of these issues. And I think that so
many people have people who are LGTBQI plus in their family.
But you can't just ask one blanket question. And I
(24:30):
think as the sort of the rainbow family letters gets longer,
it does become complex because there isn't necessarily a single
question that will be helpful to data analysts that mixes
ideas around sexuality and gender.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So one argument I've read that I thought was interesting
was if there is a question about gender identity, say
which for members of the community. I mean, some say
it's important, others say they don't want to be asked.
We've got to acknowledge that there's diversity within the community.
There are a large portion of Australians that will not
actually understand the question. And they said that if there
was something about sex and gender, then what they were
(25:08):
having to do on the form was explain how to
distinguish it, because I'm thinking about my grandfather going that
he wouldn't necessarily understand what that means, and.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Even in the explanations that can be quite controversial.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yes, and so this was, but does he need to?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
This is my question about this is that surely a
lot of what this all comes down to is how
important the census is. If the census is really the
one way that we're all counted and our needs are considered,
and it's the way that we decide how we divvy
up government money, and how many people in the population
this is relevant to and that's not relevant to. If
it is that important, then of course it needs to
(25:45):
find these things out, and if they're not relevant to you,
you just tick your box, m and you move on. Yes,
you know what I mean, Like I don't. The argument
the other thing is is it's not that important, which is,
you know, there are other ways of working out how
many people in the population don't identify as one of
two binary genders, And then that's another argument. But if
we're saying that the census is the way to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Surely it's got to do it. So the argument I
read about that is because I kept thinking, move on
to the next question. If it doesn't apply to you,
not the way the census works. So they said, what
we don't want is dodgy data. We don't want data
that doesn't reflect Australians because then we've spent an enormous
amount of money framing a question, asking people that question,
and then getting the research analyzed, where the data actually
(26:29):
isn't reflective of Australians because you felt you couldn't answer
honestly or you didn't understand the question.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
There be lots of things in the census that people
aren't answering honestly. Yea, I reckon, I agree, And of
course they would. And they're asking me what religion I
am right, And if I don't want to answer that,
I don't have to answer that. And if they're asking
me exactly what I earn, people will lie about that.
So the first thing when I kept seeing this and
I kept hearing visibility, and I thought, I don't think
(26:57):
the census is about visibility. It's not about count every
group or whatever. But then I actually listened to some
advocates and I had my mind completely changed. What they
said is that, for example, why do they ask about religion.
Everyone says that they ask about religion because they need
to know about religious adherents in each sort of state
(27:19):
and suburb, so that they know in this suburb there
is this percentage of Muslims and they require a mosque.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
It's a lot to do with policy, and it's a
lot to do with funding.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And understanding the changing makeup of our society, which means
that sexuality and gender and understanding how that's changing is
really important. These are the conversations that people are having
around dinner tables and at barbecues because it's embedded in
all of our lives.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
But it's actually really important economic policy. And that's because
if we do the census and discover that there is
a large LGBTQI plus community in a region of the
Northern Territory and we have absolutely no services for them,
no mental health services. When we know that the mental
(28:02):
health outcomes for people in that community are a lot worse,
then they can't be serviced. So I heard really an
advocate saying, we're working blindfolded at the moment, we've got
public policy, and we've got these budgets that we're throwing
here and here when we don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
To your point about the government's answer of why they
weren't going to ask being unsatisfying, that's why, right, because
if there are other ways of measuring those things, then
tell us that. Do you know what I mean? If
there's other ways that are credible and deeply informed about
working out what percentage of population we need to invest in,
then tell us what they are. But don't just say
it's too hard to have the conversation, because I don't
(28:42):
think that's what governments get to do.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I think it actually speaks to a bigger question that
is generational to an extent, which goes beyond the census,
which is whether you think sexuality is private or not.
And there are some people who are like, don't ask
me about my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
The reality there are some people who hate filling out
the census at all.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, this reason exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're a very secretive whole I feel like you would be.
Don't ask me tonight.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Move on one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday, exclusively for Momma Mere subscribers. Follow
the link at the show notes to get us in
your ears five days a week, and a huge thank
you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Is the me too moment over? Are we experiencing post
me to creep? And what do those questions have to
do with a new very sexy calendar. Guardian columnist Barbara
Ellen writes, tasteful nudity is back in business. It's as
if the last seven years had never happened. If you've
never heard of the Pirelli calendar, neither until today. But
(29:51):
basically it's an annual calendar. I'd never heard of it,
as calendars tend to be. They tend to be annual.
Published by the tire manufacturing company Pirelli for the last
sixty years, but for the last seven of those, the
Pirelli Calendar has not been your classic nudy, sexy male day.
As calendar subjects have been more clothed, they've embraced more
(30:13):
diversity in age. In twenty eighteen they only featured women
of color, but this year, photographer Ethan James Green said,
me Too really forced everyone to take a pause, which
is really good. My initial thoughts when I was approached
to shoot the calendar were if I'm gonna do Pirelli,
I want to do Pirelli. I wanted to go back
to the sexy classic. Apparently there's been a resurgence in
(30:36):
sexy films and TV shows. Victoria's Secret brought back their
signature wings, and some male actors are pushing back on
on set intimacy coordinators. Maya, are we losing the gains
of the me too movement?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This is necessarily the best example of that. I think
that these things go in cycles and pendulum swing, and
I think that there was a lot of understandable correction
and very necessary correction, because let's be clear about what
me Too was. It wasn't about oh, eye rollie, you
(31:11):
can't have push up bras or sexy calendars anymore. It
was actually supposed to be a live mandate telling men
to stop sexually abusing, harassing, and coercing women in the workplace,
whether it was a film and TV set, or in
an office or in a hotel room with a jacuzzi,
or wherever it was at the photocopia, in a restaurant.
(31:32):
And I think that that's really important. But the problem
with the Pirelli calendar, and it's kind of symbolic in
the same way that the market just corrected with Victoria's
secret that kind of girl's prancing down a runway, and
we learned later that there was a lot of terrible
things that went on behind the scenes. I was talking
to a person on Friday night, a woman who was
(31:55):
a model at this time in the early two thousands,
about what Victoria's secret castings were like. She said, it
was shocking what went on, like the way that the
models were demeaned, the sleaziness, the creepiness of it all.
And I think it's great that hopefully that doesn't happen
anymore in terms of what imagery is put out there.
(32:18):
What's interesting is that social media has allowed women to
sexualize themselves. And Holly and I have arguments about this
all the time. Many people will say it's a good thing.
I don't think it's a bad thing. I feel frustrated
when it feels sometimes like women have taken on the
job of maintaining oppressive beauty standards to get likes, get deals,
(32:42):
get better roles, get more attention.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
I've always done that, is that, yes, and sorry, I
think it's new that well, now women can do it
on their own social platforms, which is clearly an improvement
on men just doing it.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
But gosh, it would be nice if women could do
some other things like j Low over the weekend release
her first post divorce playbook post and it was a playbook.
There was an INSPI quote and then the shot of
her looking directly at camera, very tricky to set up
with a mirror behind her. In the background you can
see her ass reflected, and.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's like, defend Jaylo for one second, because you just
said it would be nice if she's super thirsty. There
were like twelve pictures in that carousel and only one
of her shelter bottom, so she was doing eleven other things,
but Mia, I only choose to see one.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
It was the ultimate really look, but that's.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Mandatory, right, And it's like, it's the other ones are
there to justify the one of her ass, And I
blame j Lo because that's still how we value women,
by what there are is and their faces.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
A mayor, I want you to save that book market,
so anyway out of a relationship.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
In the twenty twenty five calendar, there are men they've
had people fully clothed before and the photography himself. That
quote was a little bit unfair in that column. I
went back and looked what he originally said, because she
made it seem like it's like, oh, we had a
little pause for me too, and now we're back to
being splitdedive of women. It's not what he said. He said,
I think you know me too really forced everyone to pause,
(34:06):
which is really good. And I think a lot of
what sexy has become is like what we started seeing
on people's social media, usually through selfies, so people have
full control of what they're putting out there and showing
how skin is captured and not doing anything that they're
not comfortable with. And then he says his work is
about being collaborative with this subject, and of course women
want to get their gear off because that's how you
(34:27):
get power and status in these clicy The problem with
a Parrelli calendar is that it was given to mechanics
and it was to be in workplaces. Actually that was
the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The thing is about the Perrelli calendar, as it's always
been really artie. There is generally, for want of a
less vulgar term, there's a wank calendar for everybody, right,
So the kind that you would see in a general
mechanics shop, you know, in a suburb, is not the
Parrelli calendar. It's always been use touchy, black and white, stunning.
Even when it was nudy, it was always that they've
(34:57):
made it very specifically to raise their status. So it's
nude women but posh, just like when I was young.
So we're talking about tires, so it works. Could go
to a man's house and he might have a loaded
magazine poster on his wall, and he could pretend it
was ironic, but really it was still just a wank picture, right,
So these were the posh, posey wank pictures. They weren't
(35:19):
really on mechanics walls because they've never sold them. They
were always only given out to very few people. But
they've always been this much intensely pretentious soft porn as
opposed to just your box standard soft porn. Me has
already made this point, which is the obvious one, that
Me Too wasn't about put your clothes back on, ladies.
Me Too was about if women are going to do
(35:41):
whatever they want to do with their bodies, then they
shouldn't be harassed while they're doing it, and wouldn't it
be nice if they had some choice in the matter.
And so it's not the nudity or otherwise itself that's
the problem. It's the atmosphere in which it's created.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Right, Yes, and Maya, I know what you're saying about
that quite being taken out of context. But my question
is why he brought up me too. Me too has
nothing to do with anything like it feels irrelevant to.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I think he was asked. You know, it's become contrayal
the idea of photographing women with their clothes off. It's
why Playboy has closed.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
It's why it's become controversial because when they looked back,
they realized that the conditions in which the women were
being treated, as you said, were not right, and so
we started looking at it through a different lens. But
it's also worth looking at the timeline. Because he brought
up me Too. I looked at when this shift happened,
and it actually happened in twenty sixteen, which is a
(36:37):
year before Me Too. It wasn't me Too that changed
the Pirelli calendar. It was a cultural shift that was
already happening, because in twenty sixteen, Annie Leibovitz celebrated women
for their accomplishments. I remember this. It was the iconic
Amy Schumer. She was there with a coffee cup and
it was a bit funny, a bit ironic. It wasn't
male gaizy.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And there was Serena Williams where it really showed all
her muscles, like really really strong photography, and a lot
of people were like, well, what's the point of my
ARTI wanky calendar if the women are all showing me
their accomplishment instead.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, in twenty seventeen and unretouched Dame Helen Mirren was
Miss December, honestly, and she was wrapped in a blanket.
And then an unretouched Uma Thurman was Miss August and
she was in Apollo neck. And then in twenty eighteen
the calendar featured an all black group of models, activists
and actors. And so this idea of oh, we can
(37:32):
get our boobs out again, it does feel a little
not even so much regressive, but just like it's almost tweet,
this idea that this calendar could be in any way
shocking when you just flick through your phone and that's
what everyone looks like.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, but I think that the conditions are very different, right,
Like if I see even I'm thinking about em Rata
and what she said about the conditions of some of
the photo shoots where she had her clothes off and
how men owned her image. That makes me look at
the photos differently. If Emrada shares a selfie, I don't
feel that because no one else is profiting off.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
She was the means of production. Basically to your communist exactly,
It's like if women are owning it, controlling it, profiting
from it, it's completely different that if it's just the
guys at Perelli.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Before we wrap up the show today, Jesse, we've got
a bit of a surprise for you, and we've got
a bit of a guest to come in and follow
up on a segment that we did last week, where
is our guests.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
You see last.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Week on the show, you mentioned the idea of the
fair Play cards and how you were feeling really resentful
of how much mental load you've taken on since Luna
was born, and you ordered these cards, which basically listed
all the hundred or so chores in the household, and
(38:53):
you were really happy that you were going to make
the invisible visible, and it was not fair you were
tired of grun all the meals. It had swung right
out of balance since Luna was born. So I'm interested
to know when you guys sat down with the cards,
how to go? And since I feel like you been
an unreliable witness, do you guys like the.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Look on my face? What's this face?
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Well?
Speaker 3 (39:14):
I keep saying to you, Luca Levine, there is no winners.
This wasn't about winning and losing. It was about something else,
all right. So basically, there are a hundred cards and
then you choose the ones that are relevant to you
and your family. And so I had gone through and
chosen them, and we sat there and I was like,
this isn't about winning or losing, but it's going to
be embarrassing when you lose. And so I got every.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Let's just we'll pull up there. Just briefly.
Speaker 7 (39:38):
It was a period where we were on Friday afternon
we're taking the dog to the park. Yeah, and you
it wasn't just like a let's do the cards. I
think that you would trying to. We maybe had like
an hour or two hour long conversation where you were.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Talking about this twenty minute how.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
You felt like you were carrying a lot of unvisible load, unvisible, unvisible.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
We didn't have a good night sleep, did we invisible load? Yes,
that was happening, Lucra. And that's part of communicating in
a marriage.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
What it seemed like you were sort of doing is
it seems like you were steering into the card is
like I know where this is going personally, and it
was sort of like you were starting to take the
run up on like your victory lap.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yeah. What happened is that the cards were deeply flawed.
The cards didn't fully represent my contribution to the household.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They were literally stacked to gage.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
They were And I have some feedback about the cards.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So what happens. There's one hundred and you just choose
and put in front of you the ones that of
all the tasks that you do.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yes, exactly. So for example, I think the first card
that we pulled was like it stuff around the house. Okay, fair,
I'll give that to Luka. The second card was accounting, Okay, fair,
I'll give that Tuluka. The third card was repairs around
the house, and I was like, this feels misogynistic if
you're asking me. The fourth card was garbage and I
was like, all right, where are all my tasks? And
(40:54):
then there was nighttime wake ups boom me.
Speaker 7 (40:58):
Then they got a few good wins on the trot. Yeah,
picked up a little bit of momentum, Yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I did things such as enrichment for our child.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, you started clutching its straws after a while.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I did that a card.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Enrichment? Just like learning learning, I teach everything. And then
I did start going through the discarded cards that I
said didn't really matter to our family and claiming some
of those.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (41:23):
I think beforehand you seem to imply that you thought
that there was a lot of invisible work that you
did around the house, mental load that I didn't know about,
and that's why we should do the cards.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
And my feedback was, I.
Speaker 7 (41:35):
Know everything you do, and you do an enormous amount
around the house, and you definitely one hundred percent take
the line's share of the.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Mental load when it comes to Luna.
Speaker 7 (41:43):
And my feedback to you before we did the cards was,
maybe you don't have any visibility of what I do.
I have visibility you do, so I don't think we
need to do the cards. I'm comfortable, But if you
need to do them as an exercise to see what
I do.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
That's fine, whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
I would like to leave this conversation on one card.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
May Or.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I haven't told you this story, but so.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
When the cards were out, how many cards?
Speaker 7 (42:04):
It's the vast majority by a long way.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You had.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, absolutely, I have a question because you know I'm
on your side, Jess.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Not all jobs are equally You can take a bin out,
it's not the same as planning and what the child's
going to eat all week.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
I completely agree, wouldn't you say, Luca?
Speaker 7 (42:21):
I think that it was pretty clear at the end
who won't You're not meant to win.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
But there are a lot of tasks that weren't included.
I will be writing to her. But how about this
I do. There was one that said backfire on it
that said community service, and I looked at it and
I said to Luca, actually, as a family, I think
we could do more community service. And Lucas said, I quote,
I do do community service. I referee. That is a
paid job that Luca does on Saturdays. And he thought
(42:49):
that was community service. And I said, that's just a
job you do for money.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
If you did it for.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
No money, the money is very small.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
No, No, that's not what community service means.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Why do you do it a.
Speaker 7 (42:59):
Bit about refereeing that I care about really the control
and having the giving back to the community.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
It's not about giving back to the community, you know, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I was worried when you said on Friday about getting
the cards, because I was like, this is a rookie era.
Because my home set up is similar to yours, in.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
Which challenging a fucking grandmaster chess player at a work
game of.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Chess, I would not want to see all the things
that I am.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I am the mental load.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I would have so few cards. So do you feel
less resentful afterwards? Jesse?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Making the bed wasn't a card.
Speaker 7 (43:31):
Making the bed is not a mental load. If you
want to get up earlier and I get up.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Last, I will make the bed. How we start our
day as human beings.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
I hope you included that you have to organize all
the childcare I did.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
That was one of that's a big job.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That's harder than taking a bin out was one of
her cars. What happens when the nannies six slash mom
can't come over slash whatever exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
I don't think this is farewell for our relationship, and
I'm considering a divorce anyway.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
One Neil Luca up top.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
You know a friend of mine, if she was listening
to this where she will be high, she would be saying,
but actually this doesn't apply to him, but it would
apply to a lot of man. How well does he
do those jobs? That's what she would say. So true,
But unfortunately Luca is quite thorough and organized, but a
lot of men would be like, see, I did cook dinner,
but cooking dinner was just like some riveta with some
deat side on it.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, that's like the one meal I know how to cook.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
But I understand why you feel so kind of resentful
because before you had no mental load pretty much, and
now it's all been downside for you in terms of
extra work. Have the beautiful child, I know, but I
mean in terms of work, right, it's only been a
massive increase for you, yes, But for him, he hasn't
(44:47):
gained any but he's always had a ton.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
You know, what I think we should do on top
of the cards is get out of timer. And every
time you're doing something to contribute to the family, I
think you'd get your timer.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
We should put it on the sensus.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I feel like feelings should somehow be that's measure. It's hard,
but it's like I bring the good vibes. I do too.
I bring the joy and I bring the lulls.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I bring the parenting is harder remembering to renew the
car insurance. I'm sorry, but these jobs are not the
same exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
There was one that was airline points and I was like,
shutout airline points exactly. Try that cart out.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I've got you, Jesse out loud as A massive thank
you to you for being with us through our Monday show.
Hopefully that our little glimpse into Jesse and Luca's house
brightened up your week, so please please jump in the
group and help us find a way to make Jesse win.
A massive thank you too to our fabulous team who
help us put this show together. We are going to
(45:49):
be back in your ears tomorrow. Goodbye bye.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out loud. If what women are actually talking
about on Monday, the second of September, I'm Holly Waynwright,
I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And on the show today, Angelina Jolie has no friends?
Is that a problem we discussed?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Maya delivers a monologue.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Also has always been a red flag for me.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Why everywhere you look there's a row going on about
how much the government should know about your sexuality. We're
explaining the census fuss and a very famous sexy calendar
says that it is back post me to sexier than
ever and what is going on with that? But first,
Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
In case you missed it, a paralympian named Ahmed Kelly
has been on an emotional roller coaster after being disqualified
in the heat of his one hundred and fifty meter
medley and then going on to win a silver medal
in the same event. That is a little riddle. How
do you get disqualified and then win a medal.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
It's one of our paralympins, right, Australian.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
He's Australian, very love Ahmed. Kelly swam in the heat
of the medley event and when he looked up at
the board he saw the three letters.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
That no swimmer wants to see, DSQ.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
DSQ say you're a commentator. The thing was, though no
one could work out why he was disqualified, not even
the pul side commentator. Kelly, who is missing both arms
below the elbow and both legs, were swimming in the
medley and you're required to swim backstroke, then breaststroke and
(01:58):
then a freestyle lap. Right, that's the last one. Did
you know that in your freestyle lap you can actually
swim freestyle or butterfly? You know how the word is
free style and people choose freestyle because it's the fastest.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
But for Kelly, he was like, I'm gonna swim butterfly.
He's been to four Olympic Games. Like the man knows
the rules. He does anyway, they just qualified him, and then,
following protests from Swimming Australia, he was reinstated and then
went on to win a silver medal in a post
swim interview, Kelly said, I've gone through a lot worse
(02:33):
and it's just been great to represent Australia in a
Paralympic final. I can never get used to it. It's
always a special thing to do. Perspective, perspective and my
favorite thing, I mean, other than watching these phenomenal athletes,
are some of the stories that come out of the Paralympics.
Because I met Kelly spent the first seven years of
his life in an orphanage in Baghdad, and along with
(02:53):
his brother, he was adopted by an Australian humanitarian work
art named Moira Kelly. Both he and his brother were
born with severely disabled limbs and just like many other
babies in Iraq, they had been impacted by chemical warfare.
And this is Kelly's para Olympic Games. He's been there since.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I legine. I mean, if you're not watching the Paralympics,
you're missing out. I was cheering for Dana Krees. She's
twenty two, she's from Victoria. It's her first Paralympics and
she won a bronze medal in the women's javelin F
three four, which was Australia's tenth medal on day four
we are crushing it. At the paralymic we are.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
In sixth place. So again, what Australians like is what
we're doing very well at things? Yeah, and we are
doing very well.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Can I ask a potentially sensitive question all the categories?
So you just said javelin three four? I get confused
about those, right. Sometimes you're watching and you're like, I
don't think I understand what I'm watching.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Is there like a place where.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You can just get across all that stuff? Yes, it's
called Google. I'll send the link after that. I'll send
you a link after the show.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It's true though, because sometimes you watch a swimming race,
I mean you go, oh, these people have varying different disabilities.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, And what's fascinating is watching how they differently approach
the race and you think, you know, who looks like
they're gonna win, and then they don't. But you're right,
there are different categories and there's a very specific system
that goes you know, this is this category, this category.
So we will link in the show notes so that
you can understand Holly on.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The weekend the Venice Film Festival was like an explosion
in a gen x Icon Factory. Nicole Kidman was there,
George Clooney was there, Brad Pitt was there, and they
all looked exactly the same as they always have, just
like I do. And then there was the great Angelina
Joli come Back our Ange as I will forever call her,
was there because she's got her first starring role in
(04:54):
a big deal Oscar Worthy movie in decades. Right, she's
in a biopic of Maria Kallis, who's like the iconic
opera singer from the fifties sixties. The movie got an
eight minute standing ovation. It's directed by the guy who
did Spencer and did Jackie. You know this is all
it's trilogy. This is the last idea of like iconic women.
(05:14):
If you've seen either of those movies, they're artie, they're dark.
That's the vibe of this one. And she sings in it,
and she sings opra. She did all the training.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Can she sing?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Do we know?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Have we ever heard her sing?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
She said something really interesting in the interview. She said
she always loved singing, and she used to sing when
she was younger, and she had a relationship with someone
who was very cruel to her about her singing. So
she stopped. She didn't say who.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That was speaking of, which she did manage while she
was there and getting her eight minutes standing ovation for
the movie, etc. To avoid Brad Pitt, despite Venice being
a very small place thanks to a very carefully curated
PR schedule. Now, look, I could talk about the joy
of seeing Jolie back at work for a week. I
just love her and considering all the shit that's been
(06:00):
thrown at her since her very acrimonious and actually legally
still ongoing split from Pitt.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Thanks to him.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, try to hear me, so dragging it out. We're
not going to go into all the details, of course,
but top line, she alleges that he physically abused her
and some of their six children before they're split eight
years ago now eight years. He's always denied it, and
he claims that she's long been running a smear campaign
against him. She of course, has been raising all those
kids pretty much on her own since that divorce, but
(06:29):
now the youngest of them is sixteen, and so she
is back at work, which is great to see. But
it's actually a comment from Jolie about friendship that started
the conversation we're having today. Because Mea and I have
an ongoing, long standing disagreement about Jolie, and this speaks
to it. As part of the comeback and doubtless an
Oscar campaign, She's doing lots of interviews and this first
(06:49):
one is in the Hollywood Reporter and she was asked
who she trusts, who she calls at three am, and
Jolie said, I don't really have those kind of relationships.
Maybe it's losing your parent young, maybe it's working, maybe
it's being somebody who's been betrayed a lot. I don't
have a lot of those warm, close relationships as much
that I lean on. My mother was very close to me.
(07:11):
I lost her. I've had a few friends over the
years not be there for my family and their hour
of need. I have only a couple of people that
I trust. I want to know Jessie why this is
a bold thing for a woman or maybe even a
person to admit that they don't really have friends.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It is almost the ultimate status symbol to have a
gaggle of girlfriends. We've talked about that before, to kind
of be surrounded by, you know, even the Taylor Swift
example or the contrast it is always made with Angelina Jolie,
which is Jennifer Aniston, and she famously is very close
to Corney Cox. She's very close to Reese Witherspoon. They're
always photographed out.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
She's always going on holiday with her power.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yes. Whereas for Angelina Jolly, that's never been part of
her identity. And it's probably worth acknowledging too that she's
been seen constructed by the tabloids, but also due to
a few plops points in her life, seen as a
bit of not a girl's girl. And that's because, of
(08:13):
course Brad Pitt was married to Anniston when he met Jolly,
but also Billy Bob Thornton, who was with Laura Dern
when he met Angelina Jolly. There's a famous quote by
Laura Dern. I left our home to work on a movie,
and while I was away, my boyfriend got married and
I've never heard from him again. In saying that, as
(08:33):
soon as I saw this quote, I went, duh. She's
a single mum to six kids, like when do you
fit in friendship when you're that busy. She's also an introvert,
like you hear the way that she talks about her
life and her relationships and sometimes I think that family life,
having all those kids can be really good for introverts.
(08:56):
And that's what she said. She's got some beautiful quotes
about like.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Because your life is all at home and you don't
have to leave the house.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, she says, like I never expect to be the
one that everybody understands or likes. And that's okay because
I know who I am and the kids know who
I am. That was in twenty seven and she said,
we're really such a unit. They're the best friends I've
ever had. Nobody in my life has ever stood by
me more.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
She gave birth to her friends.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well like that, Yeah, some of them. I feel a
little bit that way too, although I do have a
lot of female friends, but I've always found it notable
and I'm not part of the crew who is. Oh,
I'm team Jennifer. I think marriage's end. I think Brad
Pitt's the asshole here. You know, it's worth noting that
(09:41):
he's also premiering a movie in Venice, and he chose
this moment to hard launch his relationship at age sixty
with thirty four year old woman called Dennez, who he's
been dating for a while. But he knew that would
pull lots and lots of focus to him away from
her and a diversion.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
It's telling that they're not co parenting. It's telling that
she's done like that the kids have sided with her.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Correct. Yeah, because the kids were not all little when
they split.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
He famously too, does have friends, right. The body thing
with Clooney has been knowing on for decades and he's
in this movie and so it looks like he's got
them in his camp. Yeah. And they're very powerful and likable. Yes,
And Angelina is always the lower Are we scared of
women who are loners?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Whenever a woman says I'm just not a girl's girl,
that immediately makes my hackles go up, because it's a
bit that's sort of I'm just the cool girl, Like
I think the term is a pick may girl who
would prefer to hang with the guys. I just feel
suspicious of that, perhaps because it's something I don't understand.
I absolutely adore women, and I can't imagine not having
(10:44):
close female friends. But just the fact that she's never photographed.
It's not just that she's never photographed, because I understand
how paparazzi photos and photos at Red carpets are not everything.
They're just a tiny part of life. But she never
references other women, and I've always found that interesting and
sort of notable.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I think she's very much a lone wolf.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
She says that she lost her mother and she's been
betray by her father. I think she would probably have,
just from like pop psychology one oh one, probably some
trust issues.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, she talks about that in this interview. And a
couple of other nuggets that I loved were she did
the interview for the Hollywood Reporter in her home, which
I always find extraordinary when celebrities let journalists into their home.
I can't understand why they would do it because it
is so intimate. She's direct, though. The reporter says, can
I ask about the status of your divorce? And she
says no, And then she asks her, well, you've been
(11:40):
in la for a while now, since like twenty sixteen.
You used to travel a lot more, And she says,
I have to stay here because of custody until my
children are eighteen, but the youngest two nearly are and
then I think I'll go and live in Cambodia for
a long time. And that's interesting too. Something we didn't
know that she has to stay there even though the
(12:01):
kids don't see him, that he's prevented her from taking
them out of the country. So I think she's a
complex character.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I think one of the reasons why people are still
fascinated by her because it was interesting to me watching
the gen X celebs at that festival because they are
still around, right, you know, Kidman's in lots of movies
at the moment, She's on lots of covers, she's in
lots of shoots. Clooney and Pitt are trying to make
their buddy stuff still happen after twenty odd years, and
(12:29):
of course they are. They're talented, at the top of
their game, and there's a younger obviously, a younger gen
coming in Hard just Shalow Maze and you know those
guys and Zendeia and everything. It's like, what do you
do with the old movie stars now that we don't
just shuffle them off. One of the reasons I've always
loved Angelina Jolie, and I think the reason why her
image is still interesting is because it is a different
(12:51):
vision of womanhood. Right right from the beginning of her
being famous, She's never played the I'm just like you thing,
which is what we like our celebrities to do. We
like to believe they're just like us. But right from
the beginning with her vials of blood around her neck
and kissing her brother at the Oscars and the extraordinary
weird projects but very offbeat project she takes on. She
(13:11):
directs movies in other languages. She's always trying to shine
spotlights on difficult conflicts that nobody really wants to look
at like she's never been I'm just like you. I
am nothing like you. You are nothing like me. And
I think that whether or not you like that probably
says something about whether or not you feel the need
to connect to somebody to like what they do.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
That's so interesting because.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
She's always been famous, right like her father was. I
imagine that friendships are really difficult to cultivate in that environment,
and maybe if more people were honest, then we would
find that a lot of people that famous are incredibly
isolated well, and.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
A lot of non famous people are. I mean, we
hear from women all the time, don't we that Like
the idea of having this amazing group of girlfriends is
very aspirational, but it's not necessarily a reality for everybody,
and maybe it's important for those people to hear somebody.
I'm not that I'm saying they're sitting around waiting for
Angelina Jolie to validate their life, but for somebody to say, well, actually, no,
(14:10):
that's not what I have.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I received a sub stack this morning from an Helen
Peterson and the subject line was did your parents have friends?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Good question?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
And she's writing a book at the moment, staring a
big project, and that's how she opens the questions that
she has about friendship.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Pretty it's her book about friendship.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Yeah, it's about friendship, and a lot of people are
surprised by that because they're like, oh, that's not something
I think about a lot. But she says that there's
a few things she's pulled out of the data. The
first is that if your parents didn't have friends growing up,
that is a source of deep sadness.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Like, so, you mean if your parents didn't have friends
when you were growing up, it's like your memories of
growing up didn't include.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, so, like you had a sense that your parents
were lonely or isolated or their activities revolved around you.
Not only does that make you sad? To look back on.
But as an adult, a lot of people carry that
and feel almost a lot of pressure, especially with aging parents,
where they just go I've got to look after them.
(15:14):
The other data point was that when they looked at
parents and friendship, more often than not, it was the
mother who was a social architect, and the dad was
more introverted and kind of went along, but it was
the mum doing it. And I thought this was really relevant.
She said, divorce often functions as a pivot point. After
the divorce, one parent often becomes more isolated, so this
(15:37):
is very relevant to Angeline Jollie and I think the
most telling quote was the one you said about I've
had a few friends that were not there in our
moment of need and the divorced families.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I know George Clooney for starting Hollywood chose him.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Hollywood always chose him. They chose him. When he's split
with Jennifer, they chose him. When he's split with Angelina,
they choose him. Hollywood is a boys club, no matter
how you cut it and how it's true much you
think things have.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Changed, but I reckon in real life it's probably often
the bloke who becomes iceler yes, because the stereotype that
the woman is the social organizer is often true, not
necessarily that she gets custody of the friends, because that
depends very much on the circumstances of the split. But
some men have never learnt the skills of how to
build a social life and keep up with people and
keep friendships going and turn up for things. And that's
(16:27):
such an interesting question because my parents always had friends,
and they are very good at friendship. They've held all
their friends and I often feel a bit guilty because
you know, there are people in my life who were
once really good friends but I've kind of lost touch with.
But when I went back for my dad's eightieth they've
got friends there from UNI, which is sixty years ago,
and I'm deeply impressed. Which are good friend role models.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And Helen Peterson says that the real shift is that
now our weekends and our spare time revolves around our children, yes,
our children's activities. Whereas if you've got children, Yeah, memories
that you know gen X might have or I have
is that weekends were spent at my parents' friend's house.
I didn't know the kids. I was put in a
room with a movie on yeah, if there was a
(17:12):
swimming pool, I was just But there were.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
A lot entrepre. You became friends with your parents' friends kids,
and I mean there was a term for it, family friends.
And there's a whole group of people, both the adults
and their kids who I grew up with, who I've
got a real sort of connection to you. I don't
see them more, speak to them, or stay in contact
with the kids necessarily anymore. But they were really strong
(17:36):
parts of your life. Because I didn't spend weekends with
my own friends, I spent them with the kids of
my parents' friends. But that wouldn't happen anymore.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Really, now we've got what she refers to an Helen
Peterson wrote about this a while ago. It's called the
friendship dip, and all the data says the thirties and
forties your lives is not just parenting. Even if you
don't have kids, your life gets really really busy, and
a lot of people exit their forties with not a
lot of friends. And then hopefully as you get older
(18:05):
there's a lot of reconnecting. I see this with people
who are, like, you know, retiring or their kids have
left the house or whatever. There's more time, and I
think they realize as well the importance of friendship. But
I thought with Jolly, she's really in the midst of
that friendship deal.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Although now I'm worried about the six kids because if
Anne Helen Peterson is right and that they're looking at
their m I'm going, why doesn't she have any friends? Yeah? Yeah,
now they'll be all ried burden. They've read about this.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
If you want to hear about Brad Pitt and Angelina
Jolly on the red carpet at the Venice Film Festival
and everything that's happening there, listen to our entertainment podcast
The Spill. We have a link in our show notes,
Mother Loud out.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Louders, Do you want the government to ask you about
your sexuality? What about your gender identity or your genitals?
These were all census questions which were considered by the
Australian Bureau of Statistics for the twenty twenty six senses,
but they were initially rejected for inclusion by the Prime
Minister to avoid a divisive culture war, which is what
(19:09):
he said. Unfortunately this sparked a divisive culture war. Peter
Dutton agreed that the questions shouldn't be included because they
were too woke, and many members of the queer community
were upset because they said the fact the census in
twenty twenty one, which was the last time we had one,
didn't specifically ask about their sexuality or gender identity, or
(19:31):
trans or intersex identity and the makeup of their family.
That made them feel invisible. Then six labor MPs broke
ranks against the Prime Minister and they told Albo to
reverse the decision, and on Friday he did so. Now
one more question will be added on sexual preference, but
there won't be a question on trans and intersex people.
(19:54):
This is what he said.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
We are consistent about having a common sense approach to
these issues. We want to make sure that everyone is valued,
regardless of their gender, their race, their faith, their sexual orientation.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Now I wanted to sort of know what to think
about this. I'm not a member of this community, so
it sort of doesn't really matter what I think, but
I wanted to understand the two sides. And there was
a fantastic column over the weekend by Jacqueline Mayley, who's
one of my favorite columnists, and she sort of outlined
that the arguments against it and let's go into this
assuming that everybody came from a well meaning place. She said.
(20:36):
The reasons that you might not want to have that
question there is that even though the census data is anonymized,
some Australians would object to the government inquiring into a
subject that they considered private. The way that sort of
income I think is pretty private. Marital status is a law.
The tax department has a record of your income. But
maybe you don't want the government asking who you sleep with.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I'm just trying to remember what they do ask at
the moment, right, So they do it every five years,
don't they And they ask you if you're single, married
to facto?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, they ask about religion. I think what they're thinking though,
is is that if you get the census in your household.
This was one of the arguments. Whether or not it's
a strong argument is to be decided. But do you
then look at each of your children depending on you know,
don't know the politics of your family, and say do
you identify as gay or straight or bisexual?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right? Be you flatmate, yes, might be your partner who
is bisexual, but you've never talked about it. I mean
you don't know. And another reason against it is that
coming out on the census form could be particularly risky
for some people who are in conservative religious communities or
living in a non queer friendly household. And when it
(21:47):
comes to trans and intersex people, there are some who
don't want to disclose their anatomy on an Australian Bureau
of Statistics form. The other thing against it is that
every time there's a census, everybody applies to have a
question included about their particular area of interest or their
particular community, and every question that's in there is an
(22:07):
enormous cost. That's where the government has to decide based
on the recommendations by the Australian Bureau Statistics. Yes to
this question, no to that question. If we have this question,
we can't also afford to have that question. It's not
just an endless you can ask whatever you want, and
that's something I didn't realize now the arguments for including it.
I want to read what Jack Malee said. She said
(22:28):
the fact that Albo had said he doesn't want to
cause division, she said, to lay the blame for those conflicts,
which she agrees are real. I mean, we just had
to see what happened with the Olympics and the boxer
and these things can cause hostility and division, which can
be very harmful. She says, to imply that even talking
(22:50):
about those issues is creating social division is regressive, and
it's also not fair to put that responsibility on that community.
And she says, one person's woke agenda is another person's
idea of inclusion, and it's a debate that needs to
be had respectfully. And she basically says it's a government's
job to lead us through this division, not to say, oh,
(23:11):
there's division, we're not going to talk about it because
it'll make things worse. It's like, well, that's your job
is to lead the way.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Surely, I found the government's response to why the question
wasn't included to be incredibly unsatisfying. So and I thought
that this was a fairly good point that it had
sort of been promised that there would be a question
in there. So there was a commitment from the government
to include LGBTQ plus Australians in the consultation and planning
(23:42):
process for the twenty twenty six census, and to ensure
that the census gathers relevant data on these Australians, so
when they didn't do it, and then the community said, hey,
why didn't you do it? I was all is because
I went, oh, I'm sure there's a rational but it
was basically, we don't want to be divisive, we don't
(24:03):
want that to be around yeah, which I just thought, well,
that's not a very good answer.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
People can get very distressed if they feel they're being
made to be invisible. You know, so much progress has
been made with same sex marriage and a much greater
social understanding of these issues. And I think that so
many people have people who are LGTBQI plus in their family.
But you can't just ask one blanket question. And I
(24:30):
think as the sort of the rainbow family letters gets longer,
it does become complex because there isn't necessarily a single
question that will be helpful to data analysts that mixes
ideas around sexuality and gender.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So one argument I've read that I thought was interesting
was if there is a question about gender identity, say
which for members of the community. I mean, some say
it's important, others say they don't want to be asked.
We've got to acknowledge that there's diversity within the community.
There are a large portion of Australians that will not
actually understand the question. And they said that if there
was something about sex and gender, then what they were
(25:08):
having to do on the form was explain how to
distinguish it, because I'm thinking about my grandfather going that
he wouldn't necessarily understand what that means, and.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Even in the explanations that can be quite controversial.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yes, and so this was, but does he need to?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
This is my question about this is that surely a
lot of what this all comes down to is how
important the census is. If the census is really the
one way that we're all counted and our needs are considered,
and it's the way that we decide how we divvy
up government money, and how many people in the population
this is relevant to and that's not relevant to. If
it is that important, then of course it needs to
(25:45):
find these things out, and if they're not relevant to you,
you just tick your box, m and you move on. Yes,
you know what I mean, Like I don't. The argument
the other thing is is it's not that important, which is,
you know, there are other ways of working out how
many people in the population don't identify as one of
two binary genders, And then that's another argument. But if
we're saying that the census is the way to do it.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Surely it's got to do it. So the argument I
read about that is because I kept thinking, move on
to the next question. If it doesn't apply to you,
not the way the census works. So they said, what
we don't want is dodgy data. We don't want data
that doesn't reflect Australians because then we've spent an enormous
amount of money framing a question, asking people that question,
and then getting the research analyzed, where the data actually
(26:29):
isn't reflective of Australians because you felt you couldn't answer
honestly or you didn't understand the question.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
There be lots of things in the census that people
aren't answering honestly. Yea, I reckon, I agree, And of
course they would. And they're asking me what religion I
am right, And if I don't want to answer that,
I don't have to answer that. And if they're asking
me exactly what I earn, people will lie about that.
So the first thing when I kept seeing this and
I kept hearing visibility, and I thought, I don't think
(26:57):
the census is about visibility. It's not about count every
group or whatever. But then I actually listened to some
advocates and I had my mind completely changed. What they
said is that, for example, why do they ask about religion.
Everyone says that they ask about religion because they need
to know about religious adherents in each sort of state
(27:19):
and suburb, so that they know in this suburb there
is this percentage of Muslims and they require a mosque.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Right.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
It's a lot to do with policy, and it's a
lot to do with funding.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And understanding the changing makeup of our society, which means
that sexuality and gender and understanding how that's changing is
really important. These are the conversations that people are having
around dinner tables and at barbecues because it's embedded in
all of our lives.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
But it's actually really important economic policy. And that's because
if we do the census and discover that there is
a large LGBTQI plus community in a region of the
Northern Territory and we have absolutely no services for them,
no mental health services. When we know that the mental
(28:02):
health outcomes for people in that community are a lot worse,
then they can't be serviced. So I heard really an
advocate saying, we're working blindfolded at the moment, we've got
public policy, and we've got these budgets that we're throwing
here and here when we don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
To your point about the government's answer of why they
weren't going to ask being unsatisfying, that's why, right, because
if there are other ways of measuring those things, then
tell us that. Do you know what I mean? If
there's other ways that are credible and deeply informed about
working out what percentage of population we need to invest in,
then tell us what they are. But don't just say
it's too hard to have the conversation, because I don't
(28:42):
think that's what governments get to do.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I think it actually speaks to a bigger question that
is generational to an extent, which goes beyond the census,
which is whether you think sexuality is private or not.
And there are some people who are like, don't ask
me about my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
The reality there are some people who hate filling out
the census at all.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yeah, this reason exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You're a very secretive whole I feel like you would be.
Don't ask me tonight.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Move on one unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday, exclusively for Momma Mere subscribers. Follow
the link at the show notes to get us in
your ears five days a week, and a huge thank
you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Is the me too moment over? Are we experiencing post
me to creep? And what do those questions have to
do with a new very sexy calendar. Guardian columnist Barbara
Ellen writes, tasteful nudity is back in business. It's as
if the last seven years had never happened. If you've
never heard of the Pirelli calendar, neither until today. But
(29:51):
basically it's an annual calendar. I'd never heard of it,
as calendars tend to be. They tend to be annual.
Published by the tire manufacturing company Pirelli for the last
sixty years, but for the last seven of those, the
Pirelli Calendar has not been your classic nudy, sexy male day.
As calendar subjects have been more clothed, they've embraced more
(30:13):
diversity in age. In twenty eighteen they only featured women
of color, but this year, photographer Ethan James Green said,
me Too really forced everyone to take a pause, which
is really good. My initial thoughts when I was approached
to shoot the calendar were if I'm gonna do Pirelli,
I want to do Pirelli. I wanted to go back
to the sexy classic. Apparently there's been a resurgence in
(30:36):
sexy films and TV shows. Victoria's Secret brought back their
signature wings, and some male actors are pushing back on
on set intimacy coordinators. Maya, are we losing the gains
of the me too movement?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This is necessarily the best example of that. I think
that these things go in cycles and pendulum swing, and
I think that there was a lot of understandable correction
and very necessary correction, because let's be clear about what
me Too was. It wasn't about oh, eye rollie, you
(31:11):
can't have push up bras or sexy calendars anymore. It
was actually supposed to be a live mandate telling men
to stop sexually abusing, harassing, and coercing women in the workplace,
whether it was a film and TV set, or in
an office or in a hotel room with a jacuzzi,
or wherever it was at the photocopia, in a restaurant.
(31:32):
And I think that that's really important. But the problem
with the Pirelli calendar, and it's kind of symbolic in
the same way that the market just corrected with Victoria's
secret that kind of girl's prancing down a runway, and
we learned later that there was a lot of terrible
things that went on behind the scenes. I was talking
to a person on Friday night, a woman who was
(31:55):
a model at this time in the early two thousands,
about what Victoria's secret castings were like. She said, it
was shocking what went on, like the way that the
models were demeaned, the sleaziness, the creepiness of it all.
And I think it's great that hopefully that doesn't happen
anymore in terms of what imagery is put out there.
(32:18):
What's interesting is that social media has allowed women to
sexualize themselves. And Holly and I have arguments about this
all the time. Many people will say it's a good thing.
I don't think it's a bad thing. I feel frustrated
when it feels sometimes like women have taken on the
job of maintaining oppressive beauty standards to get likes, get deals,
(32:42):
get better roles, get more attention.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
I've always done that, is that, yes, and sorry, I
think it's new that well, now women can do it
on their own social platforms, which is clearly an improvement
on men just doing it.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
But gosh, it would be nice if women could do
some other things like j Low over the weekend release
her first post divorce playbook post and it was a playbook.
There was an INSPI quote and then the shot of
her looking directly at camera, very tricky to set up
with a mirror behind her. In the background you can
see her ass reflected, and.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's like, defend Jaylo for one second, because you just
said it would be nice if she's super thirsty. There
were like twelve pictures in that carousel and only one
of her shelter bottom, so she was doing eleven other things,
but Mia, I only choose to see one.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
It was the ultimate really look, but that's.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Mandatory, right, And it's like, it's the other ones are
there to justify the one of her ass, And I
blame j Lo because that's still how we value women,
by what there are is and their faces.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
A mayor, I want you to save that book market,
so anyway out of a relationship.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
In the twenty twenty five calendar, there are men they've
had people fully clothed before and the photography himself. That
quote was a little bit unfair in that column. I
went back and looked what he originally said, because she
made it seem like it's like, oh, we had a
little pause for me too, and now we're back to
being splitdedive of women. It's not what he said. He said,
I think you know me too really forced everyone to pause,
(34:06):
which is really good. And I think a lot of
what sexy has become is like what we started seeing
on people's social media, usually through selfies, so people have
full control of what they're putting out there and showing
how skin is captured and not doing anything that they're
not comfortable with. And then he says his work is
about being collaborative with this subject, and of course women
want to get their gear off because that's how you
(34:27):
get power and status in these clicy The problem with
a Parrelli calendar is that it was given to mechanics
and it was to be in workplaces. Actually that was
the problem.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The thing is about the Perrelli calendar, as it's always
been really artie. There is generally, for want of a
less vulgar term, there's a wank calendar for everybody, right,
So the kind that you would see in a general
mechanics shop, you know, in a suburb, is not the
Parrelli calendar. It's always been use touchy, black and white, stunning.
Even when it was nudy, it was always that they've
(34:57):
made it very specifically to raise their status. So it's
nude women but posh, just like when I was young.
So we're talking about tires, so it works. Could go
to a man's house and he might have a loaded
magazine poster on his wall, and he could pretend it
was ironic, but really it was still just a wank picture, right,
So these were the posh, posey wank pictures. They weren't
(35:19):
really on mechanics walls because they've never sold them. They
were always only given out to very few people. But
they've always been this much intensely pretentious soft porn as
opposed to just your box standard soft porn. Me has
already made this point, which is the obvious one, that
Me Too wasn't about put your clothes back on, ladies.
Me Too was about if women are going to do
(35:41):
whatever they want to do with their bodies, then they
shouldn't be harassed while they're doing it, and wouldn't it
be nice if they had some choice in the matter.
And so it's not the nudity or otherwise itself that's
the problem. It's the atmosphere in which it's created.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Right, Yes, and Maya, I know what you're saying about
that quite being taken out of context. But my question
is why he brought up me too. Me too has
nothing to do with anything like it feels irrelevant to.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I think he was asked. You know, it's become contrayal
the idea of photographing women with their clothes off. It's
why Playboy has closed.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
It's why it's become controversial because when they looked back,
they realized that the conditions in which the women were
being treated, as you said, were not right, and so
we started looking at it through a different lens. But
it's also worth looking at the timeline. Because he brought
up me Too. I looked at when this shift happened,
and it actually happened in twenty sixteen, which is a
(36:37):
year before Me Too. It wasn't me Too that changed
the Pirelli calendar. It was a cultural shift that was
already happening, because in twenty sixteen, Annie Leibovitz celebrated women
for their accomplishments. I remember this. It was the iconic
Amy Schumer. She was there with a coffee cup and
it was a bit funny, a bit ironic. It wasn't
male gaizy.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And there was Serena Williams where it really showed all
her muscles, like really really strong photography, and a lot
of people were like, well, what's the point of my
ARTI wanky calendar if the women are all showing me
their accomplishment instead.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Well, in twenty seventeen and unretouched Dame Helen Mirren was
Miss December, honestly, and she was wrapped in a blanket.
And then an unretouched Uma Thurman was Miss August and
she was in Apollo neck. And then in twenty eighteen
the calendar featured an all black group of models, activists
and actors. And so this idea of oh, we can
(37:32):
get our boobs out again, it does feel a little
not even so much regressive, but just like it's almost tweet,
this idea that this calendar could be in any way
shocking when you just flick through your phone and that's
what everyone looks like.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, but I think that the conditions are very different, right,
Like if I see even I'm thinking about em Rata
and what she said about the conditions of some of
the photo shoots where she had her clothes off and
how men owned her image. That makes me look at
the photos differently. If Emrada shares a selfie, I don't
feel that because no one else is profiting off.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
She was the means of production. Basically to your communist exactly,
It's like if women are owning it, controlling it, profiting
from it, it's completely different that if it's just the
guys at Perelli.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Before we wrap up the show today, Jesse, we've got
a bit of a surprise for you, and we've got
a bit of a guest to come in and follow
up on a segment that we did last week, where
is our guests.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
You see last.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Week on the show, you mentioned the idea of the
fair Play cards and how you were feeling really resentful
of how much mental load you've taken on since Luna
was born, and you ordered these cards, which basically listed
all the hundred or so chores in the household, and
(38:53):
you were really happy that you were going to make
the invisible visible, and it was not fair you were
tired of grun all the meals. It had swung right
out of balance since Luna was born. So I'm interested
to know when you guys sat down with the cards,
how to go? And since I feel like you been
an unreliable witness, do you guys like the.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Look on my face? What's this face?
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Well?
Speaker 3 (39:14):
I keep saying to you, Luca Levine, there is no winners.
This wasn't about winning and losing. It was about something else,
all right. So basically, there are a hundred cards and
then you choose the ones that are relevant to you
and your family. And so I had gone through and
chosen them, and we sat there and I was like,
this isn't about winning or losing, but it's going to
be embarrassing when you lose. And so I got every.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Let's just we'll pull up there. Just briefly.
Speaker 7 (39:38):
It was a period where we were on Friday afternon
we're taking the dog to the park. Yeah, and you
it wasn't just like a let's do the cards. I
think that you would trying to. We maybe had like
an hour or two hour long conversation where you were.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Talking about this twenty minute how.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
You felt like you were carrying a lot of unvisible load, unvisible, unvisible.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
We didn't have a good night sleep, did we invisible load? Yes,
that was happening, Lucra. And that's part of communicating in
a marriage.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
What it seemed like you were sort of doing is
it seems like you were steering into the card is
like I know where this is going personally, and it
was sort of like you were starting to take the
run up on like your victory lap.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yeah. What happened is that the cards were deeply flawed.
The cards didn't fully represent my contribution to the household.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They were literally stacked to gage.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
They were And I have some feedback about the cards.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
So what happens. There's one hundred and you just choose
and put in front of you the ones that of
all the tasks that you do.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yes, exactly. So for example, I think the first card
that we pulled was like it stuff around the house. Okay, fair,
I'll give that to Luka. The second card was accounting, Okay, fair,
I'll give that Tuluka. The third card was repairs around
the house, and I was like, this feels misogynistic if
you're asking me. The fourth card was garbage and I
was like, all right, where are all my tasks? And
(40:54):
then there was nighttime wake ups boom me.
Speaker 7 (40:58):
Then they got a few good wins on the trot. Yeah,
picked up a little bit of momentum, Yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I did things such as enrichment for our child.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, you started clutching its straws after a while.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, I did that a card.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Enrichment? Just like learning learning, I teach everything. And then
I did start going through the discarded cards that I
said didn't really matter to our family and claiming some
of those.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (41:23):
I think beforehand you seem to imply that you thought
that there was a lot of invisible work that you
did around the house, mental load that I didn't know about,
and that's why we should do the cards.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
And my feedback was, I.
Speaker 7 (41:35):
Know everything you do, and you do an enormous amount
around the house, and you definitely one hundred percent take
the line's share of the.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
Mental load when it comes to Luna.
Speaker 7 (41:43):
And my feedback to you before we did the cards was,
maybe you don't have any visibility of what I do.
I have visibility you do, so I don't think we
need to do the cards. I'm comfortable, But if you
need to do them as an exercise to see what
I do.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
That's fine, whatever.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
I would like to leave this conversation on one card.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
May Or.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I haven't told you this story, but so.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
When the cards were out, how many cards?
Speaker 7 (42:04):
It's the vast majority by a long way.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
You had.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, absolutely, I have a question because you know I'm
on your side, Jess.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Not all jobs are equally You can take a bin out,
it's not the same as planning and what the child's
going to eat all week.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
I completely agree, wouldn't you say, Luca?
Speaker 7 (42:21):
I think that it was pretty clear at the end
who won't You're not meant to win.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
But there are a lot of tasks that weren't included.
I will be writing to her. But how about this
I do. There was one that said backfire on it
that said community service, and I looked at it and
I said to Luca, actually, as a family, I think
we could do more community service. And Lucas said, I quote,
I do do community service. I referee. That is a
paid job that Luca does on Saturdays. And he thought
(42:49):
that was community service. And I said, that's just a
job you do for money.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
If you did it for.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
No money, the money is very small.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
No, No, that's not what community service means.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Why do you do it a.
Speaker 7 (42:59):
Bit about refereeing that I care about really the control
and having the giving back to the community.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
It's not about giving back to the community, you know, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I was worried when you said on Friday about getting
the cards, because I was like, this is a rookie era.
Because my home set up is similar to yours, in.
Speaker 7 (43:16):
Which challenging a fucking grandmaster chess player at a work
game of.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Chess, I would not want to see all the things
that I am.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I am the mental load.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I would have so few cards. So do you feel
less resentful afterwards? Jesse?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Making the bed wasn't a card.
Speaker 7 (43:31):
Making the bed is not a mental load. If you
want to get up earlier and I get up.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Last, I will make the bed. How we start our
day as human beings.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
I hope you included that you have to organize all
the childcare I did.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
That was one of that's a big job.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That's harder than taking a bin out was one of
her cars. What happens when the nannies six slash mom
can't come over slash whatever exactly.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
I don't think this is farewell for our relationship, and
I'm considering a divorce anyway.
Speaker 4 (43:58):
One Neil Luca up top.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
You know a friend of mine, if she was listening
to this where she will be high, she would be saying,
but actually this doesn't apply to him, but it would
apply to a lot of man. How well does he
do those jobs? That's what she would say. So true,
But unfortunately Luca is quite thorough and organized, but a
lot of men would be like, see, I did cook dinner,
but cooking dinner was just like some riveta with some
deat side on it.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, that's like the one meal I know how to cook.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
But I understand why you feel so kind of resentful
because before you had no mental load pretty much, and
now it's all been downside for you in terms of
extra work. Have the beautiful child, I know, but I
mean in terms of work, right, it's only been a
massive increase for you, yes, But for him, he hasn't
(44:47):
gained any but he's always had a ton.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
You know, what I think we should do on top
of the cards is get out of timer. And every
time you're doing something to contribute to the family, I
think you'd get your timer.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
We should put it on the sensus.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I feel like feelings should somehow be that's measure. It's hard,
but it's like I bring the good vibes. I do too.
I bring the joy and I bring the lulls.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I bring the parenting is harder remembering to renew the
car insurance. I'm sorry, but these jobs are not the
same exactly.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
There was one that was airline points and I was like,
shutout airline points exactly. Try that cart out.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I've got you, Jesse out loud as A massive thank
you to you for being with us through our Monday show.
Hopefully that our little glimpse into Jesse and Luca's house
brightened up your week, so please please jump in the
group and help us find a way to make Jesse win.
A massive thank you too to our fabulous team who
help us put this show together. We are going to
(45:49):
be back in your ears tomorrow. Goodbye bye.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com