October 20, 2025 • 44 mins
Prince Andrew - the royal problem that just won't go away - has done just that, by giving up his royal titles. So, Amelia Lester and Claire Murphy join our royal correspondent Holly Wainwright to try understand - why now?
Plus, does high fashion actually hate women? From a dress that looks more like a cocoon, to an ensemble that includes a mask covering Kim Kardashian's entire face and a corset so tight your body actually spills out of it, it begs the question, who exactly is buying it?
And, in Gwyneth-adjacent news, a new Netflix series is letting famous people have the last word from beyond the grave. So if you could have the last word, what would you say?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.
(00:35):
It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
twentieth of October. And I am Hollywayen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Right, I am Amelia Luster, and I'm Claire Nephi.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Welcome Murphy. Jesse Stevens is on holiday.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
She is where she flitted off to.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I can't tell you in case everybody rushes off
to find her. But the poor pregnant with twins woman
is taking a much feeded, little break, little treat, putting
the little feet up, putting all the little feet up
that are inside her at the moment.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Anyway, Oh my gosh, she has six feet right now.
How weird.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
We'll get back to her anyway. Here's what's on our
gender for today. There's a Gwyneth adjacent TV show that's
unlike anything else, and it's all about something none of
us want to talk about, and a controversial cardigan.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Plus, Kim Kardashian wore a pretty unusual dress this weekend,
and it made me wonder just how much fashion designers
hate women.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
And the problem of Prince Andrew for the king and
his heir seems to finally maybe be being dealt with.
But why is Andrew stepping away from his royal titles
now is the question. But first, in case you missed it,
can anyone at this point in time confirm the exact
whereabouts of Rhianna and Hathaway, Sandra Bullock, Kate Lanchette, Helena
(01:50):
Bonham Carter and Sarah Poulsen. No, because in a plot
that feels straight out of Oceans, eight thieves arrived on
motorbike at the Louver yesterday before using a crane or
basket lift to access a window that they opened using
a disc cutter to target the Apollo gallery of the
Louver Museum, where they keep a selection of the French
(02:12):
Crown jewels from back when they had a monarchy, grabbing
stacks of them before getting away just four minutes later.
This happened at nine thirty am, not in the dead
of night when we expect Jull thieves and cat burglars.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
To be at their best.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
It was already packed with tourists and the tour guides
were taking people around for the day and one of
them gave an interview in the street outside and said
they were just in the building they heard a loud
noise from one of the windows before staff told them
all to urgently evacuate. So what is going on here?
Is there a movie happening that we weren't aware of?
This seems wild.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I was very excited by this news. I immediately put
it in our family group chat because I was one
of those annoying Australians who was in Europe this northern summer.
I'm not usually, but this year it was my turn
to be irritating, and I took the kids to France
as out loud as would know. We went to the Louver,
and my kids were particularly my daughter was much more
excited by this crown jewels bit than by the Mona
(03:08):
Lisa and all those, and she posts for all these
selfies where she's wearing this little crown that God's stolen.
But I just assumed, because they're really impressive, they're like
emeralds as big as your fist. There are all these
amazing things. I assumed they were fake. I assumed, surely,
with all these people milling around and obviously they're behind glass.
But I was like, is this really the real thing?
(03:29):
And I'd assume the same about the Tower of London
and the English Crown jewels, but no, they are the
real deal, which is obviously why these guys want them.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Well, French authorities have said the value of what has
been stolen is inestimable, like they cannot put a price.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
On it, and they're gonna have to melt it all
down to sell it.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Who's going to buy it unless there's some I don't know,
Russian oligarch who's like, get me the French crown jewels
and he's just sitting in his toilet wearing a crown
of a long forgotten French monarch.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I think this is the most French story that ever existed.
The French just love frenching on us. First of all,
my unpacked them many ways. This is extremely French.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
First of all, they're jewel thieves. Umber jewel thieves. Also
came up with Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, Kim Kardashian had her jewels stolen in Paris. Elderly
jewel thieves, if I remember rightly, they were like octagenarians
or something. What I want to know is how many
jewel thieves in France are putting jewel thief on their
tax returns because I just feel like there's lots more
of them in France than anywhere else. Second thing about
this is you mentioned Claire that they climbed up on
(04:33):
a crane. Yes, how is no one stopping them and
saying does this crane? Has this crane got a safety certificate?
What's going on with the crane outside the loo?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
There has been a lot of discussion about security and
safety at the loop for quite some time, and it
obviously has not been addressed to their satisfaction. And case
in point, someone was able to park a crane outside
that could access a window.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, and my third point the reason why this
is so French. They managed to get away with us
at nine point thirty am on a Sunday, correct, I
mean no one's awake in France thirty on a Sunday.
This is why it was possible. I proved my point
the French are going to French on us.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, as if you.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Happened to see a cut price crown on Facebook market.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
In the next by it it's legit.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Okay, moving on, how do you solve a problem like Andrew.
Over the weekend, you probably caught that Prince Andrew, that
pesky little brother of King Charles, reportedly Mummy Queen Elizabeth's favorite,
and who also consorted with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, and
seems to have lied about just how long that relationship
lasted in recent emails that have been made public between
(05:38):
the Duke and Epstein, showing he continued to support him
even after he was exposed. Andrew has decided, after some
discussion with the King, to give up all his royal titles.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
He decided the right word yet.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
To that, so he will no longer be the Duke
of York. He'll give up his membership of the Order
of the Garter, which is the most senior order of knighthood,
as well as a bunch of others. He did release
the statement saying continued accusations about him distract from the
work of his Majesty and the royal family, so he
will still be a prince. His ex Sarah Ferguson, though,
will stop being a duchess. She was also caught up
in the emails to Epstein list their daughter's Beatrice and
(06:13):
Eugenie will still be princesses But then on top of that,
London police are probing whether Prince Andrew also asked an
officer assigned to him as a bodyguard to dig up
dirt on sexual assault accuser Virginia Giffray. The Metro Police
said on Sunday they're actively looking into media reports that
Andrews sought information in twenty eleven to smear Geffrey by
asking an officer on the force to find out if
(06:33):
she had a criminal record.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
She did not.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
That is besides the point if you unaware. Virginia Giffrey
took her own life back in April. Her new memoir
is reportedly being released this week. Her family says they're
happy Andrew is stepping back, saying it was a joyous
moment for survivors of Epstein. But Holly as mum and
Beer's royal correspondent, why is this happening now? Has Andrew's
been fighting this for years? As he jumping before being pushed.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I don't think he's jumping at all. I think he
was pushed. I think that this story is so upsetting
on so many levels. Obviously some extracts from you mentioned
Claire Virginia Diiffhrase posthumous memoirs coming out this week October
twenty first that some extracts have been published. It is
the reading is so sobering in terms of how she
(07:20):
was first introduced to Epstein via Mara Lago, which as
we know, is Donald Trump's resort in Florida, about what
happened to her, about what went on with Epstein about her,
and obviously we have to say alleged encounters with Prince Andrew,
because he has always denied, even though he settled out
of court with her, he has always denied that anything
went on there. But she The fact that the royal
(07:42):
family haven't acted decisively on Andrew until it has become
impossible for them to do anything else is so I
don't know what the word is, cowardly depressing. It's because
the thing is is that if King Charles really disapproved
of the way his mum handled this. So when the
first when this all first came out, as you said,
(08:04):
Andrew rumored to be the favorite, she sort of slapped
him on the wrist and there was this discussion about
step back, and he's widely been reported to have been
since then sitting in one of the many manor houses
on the windsor estate watching TV. He likes apparently to
watch planes land and take off like live footage.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Good on him, isn't Charles trying to kick him out
of that house?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
And riding his horses, right, So he's been doing that,
But anytime there's a royal event that he is allowed
to go to, he turns up. He tries to get
front and center, and he's been agitating to get back in.
And the fact that if Charles really disapproved of the
way his mum handled that and was disgusted by his
brother's actions, then the minute he became king, he could
have done this. He could have acted straight away, you know,
(08:47):
he could have said, I'm taking your titles, there's no
more public appearances for you. You're done. But he didn't.
He hasn't done that until the reporting around this story
has become so loud and so unavoidable, and the actions
are becoming more and more despicable. Well, not the actions
that he clearly has been in broad h for a
long time, but now it's unavoidable. The story is unavoidable,
(09:10):
do you know what I mean. It's got to a
point where they can't pretend anymore. It feels so reactive
from the royals, don't you think, Amelia.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I do.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I think there were two things that happened last week
that really prompted Charles to finally take action, and by
the way, the reporting seems to indicate that William was
the one who really had to pressure Charles into doing this.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Two events.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
The first event was, as you mentioned, Virginia Giffra's biography.
There was an excerpt published in The Guardian and there
was a particular phrase that I just could not get
over or get past. And I think these are the
words which finally made the Palace listen to what Virginia
has to say. And she wrote, he was friendly enough,
(09:53):
but still entitled, as if he believed having sex with
me was his birthright. And the reason why I think
those words hit so heavy is because he does have
a birthright. Now, the birthright is not to have sex
with he wants to have sex with, but the nature
of a royal family is that he has a birthright.
(10:14):
And that is why he is sitting in his thirty
room match and watching the planes take off, and that
is why he has lived with wealth that we can
never imagine his whole life, because he does have a birthright,
and that's why those words, I think really affected people
and prompted William perhaps as the reporting goes to speak
to Charles about how it was untenable. The second thing
that happened last week, and this is a bit more
(10:36):
cynical of me, is that another scandal broke last week
with Prince Andrew. He had been meeting it is alleged
with senior Chinese Communist Party officials who were clearly playing him.
They knew that he was a weak link in terms
of the British royal family. So I hate to be
cynical about it, but isn't it interesting that we have
been hearing about what he allegedly did to Virginia Jiffray
(10:57):
for years and it wasn't until there was also a
national security implication from Prince Andrew's poor judgment, that is
him hanging out with the Chinese Communist Party officials, that
Charles finally felt compelled to act.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I think we discussed this a few weeks ago about
how lesser royals are a real problem for the monarchy
because they want to be living in this style of
all their rich and fabulous friends, but they don't actually
get that public income anymore. And famously Charles has whittled
the list down a little bit. William, by all reporting
(11:32):
is going to whittle it down even further. About who
gets to still live high on the hog on the
public purses, they'd say, right, And the problem with that
is that it opens them up to all these They
go and sidle up to all kinds of unsavory characters
to try and get some money, and that seems to
be what Andrew was doing for a long time. Charles
himself has been accused of it before too, and it
(11:52):
was something that drove the Queen match. He was like,
why can't they just sit in their manor houses and
count the pheasants outside their windows, you know, And they're
off like taking bagfuls of cash from Saudi princes and
god knows what. And it just this reporting just makes me.
I mean, everybody who listens to this show knows I
love Royal Goss and I do. And I watched this family,
as I've said before, in the same kind of way
(12:14):
as I watch a soap opera that's been going on
my entire life, you know. But as you pointed out, Amelia,
the birthright and nature of this kind of privilege where
I can get away with whatever I want, I will
always be protected. There have always been problematic royals who
get shuffled away from the limelight. That attitude has prevailed
(12:34):
for a really long time. There's something encouraging maybe about
the fact that we're saying no, But as I say,
it's depressing that it's taken this level of scandal for
Charles to finally allegedly be all the reporting of things
is saying he's furious, Well, why wasn't he furious two
years ago, five years ago, ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It's funny because.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
We're all for the monarchy modernizing, like we want them to,
you know, be up with us in the moral choices
that we make. They obviously are still lacking in quite
a few areas. But there's a part of me that's like,
if any and Drew had done something to this level
that put the royal family, you know, their reputation at
(13:16):
risk one hundred years ago, he.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Would have been exiled.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Like you know, we saw the queen's father's brother when
he abdicated, he was exiled to another country. He was
basically told he was never to play any role, and
that guy was king for five minutes he was told
never to play a role in royal life ever again.
So whilst they have modernized and they are trying to
do things by a modern standards, there's a part of
me that's like, sometimes that old royal family justice needs
(13:41):
to come. I mean, we're not cutting anyone's heads off,
let's not go that far. Should probably slight disclaimer here.
One of my relatives did cut off the head of
King Charles the first so just.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Spill out there. That's very impressive.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Yeah, so my mum is related to a man called
Oliver Cromwell, who is like a dirty name. So we
just don't really say that out loud, but you know,
not talking about secreting small kings away in towers until
they're never seen again. Not that kind of stuff, but like,
sell this guy, get him out of the public's face.
And he has been but he's allegedly done this awful thing,
(14:15):
and he's been in Cahood's with a guy who's known
to have done awful things and that he definitely would
have been aware of at least some of the things
that he was up to. Like it would be hard
pressed to be that close to someone and not have
any idea of what they were doing, but of course.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
He knew, but I think they had. They think that's
what they've done. They think they have exiled him. But
the problem is is that until this latest progression, So
just to explain a little bit, he's had the Duke
of York taken from him as a title that he's
allowed to use, just as you said, Claire, that Sarah
Ferguson has too, But he hasn't had prince taken from
him because he actually can't have that taken from him
(14:50):
because it is his birthright. So just like Prince Harry
will always be a prince no matter what, Prince Andrew
will always be a prince no matter what. And I
think they think they have exiled him, and as you mentioned,
he's they're allegedly trying to shuffle him into Frogmore Cottage,
which is where Harry and Meg's used to lives. Had
a nice friend of had a lovely renovation. We heard
(15:11):
all about the sprung yoga studio floor. But he doesn't
want to do that. But he kind of has been exiled.
But now I think that the vision of him at
the Duchess of Kent's funeral when he was trying to
cozy up to William, and William was absolutely blanking him.
Gave off this impression of this completely un self aware, bumbling,
(15:32):
self pitying man who was like, it's so unfair that
I'm not allowed to hang around in front of the
cameras with my family anymore. That will be off the table.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
And I think the question that remains for me is
did Charles do this because he had become so quote
unquote furious or disgusted with Andrew's behavior, or did he
do it because he knows that the monarchy needs to
survive and that this kind of scandal, paired with the
Chinese Communist Party spying scandal, just can't work with the monarchy.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Well, that's always it isn't. And we know the Queen
was presented with these kind of dilemmas many times throughout
her time on the throne, and she did have to
make a choice sometimes that yes, the future of the
monarchy is what comes first, and that future does not
look good with Andrews still riding in carriages.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Kim Kardashian this past weekend attended something called the Academy
Museum Gala in Los Angeles, and she wore something that
I found actively upsetting. Let me try and describe it
for you. It was a coture look, meaning that it
had been made especially for her by a French fashion
designer named Maison Margiella Come at me French people, which
(16:47):
included for the second time, to say up today, they
are not happy with me. It included a mask which
covered Kim's entire face. As she was being led into
the event, you could actually see her flailing around with
her arms trying not to fall. And I love this detail.
There's a tablaiud called mirror Us. They went full investigative
(17:08):
reporters on this. They used video enhancement software to figure
out what she was saying to her assistant, because she
looked incredibly panicked. But of course wearing the mask, you
couldn't tell what she was saying. You couldn't send the
well all, so you think, Holly. They zoomed in and
they had a lip rey to figure out what she
was saying through the mesh mask, and it was don't
(17:28):
let go.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I can't see a thing.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So the dress itself, though, Holly, I know you you
actually found the dress even more disturbing than the mask.
The dress, how would you describe the dress.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, the dress itself was also very much on trend,
with this tiny, tiny waiste that I think we're going
to get to in a minute, but it almost looked
like it followed her ribs and then it was so
painful looking.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, there's a lot going on in fashion that is
really viscerally upsetting, and I.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Find it quite fun though, the idea that she's got
to navigate the whole party, like surely.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
At some stage though, she's going to be handed a
glass of champagne.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And then I think so because I listened to her
interview and call her daddy, and remember when she wore
the all black mask to the Matt Gala. Call her.
Alex Cooper asked her, come on, when you were inside,
you took it off, right? She said no, She committed
to the look. She didn't eat, she didn't drink, she
didn't shouldn't look anyone in the eye. I'm just this
is the least fun party of all ties.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Can I just mention too, I know, like the waist
of this dress you've described as you know, something we
all should be achieving, but it looks edious. It's like
they've pulled her in so tight that like the flesh
above it is having to bulge out across the top
of a corset, and that looks like a It hurts,
and it does not look pleasing to the eye. As
(18:49):
far as like it has beautiful sleeves, I'll give it that.
The bottom of the dress looks gorgeous. But then this
mask that you're referring to, it literally looked like this
used to be a scuff or a shawl, and they
just kind of bloked it over her heead and then
put her big choker chain around it, so now it's
a mask.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
It's just a scarf over her face.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Like I don't I am I into kitture fashion, not overly,
but I just feel like this is I don't know,
this isn't pleasing to look at clothes.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Well, this is what I want to talk about. Who
are these looks for? And fashion is meant to be
for women? Mostly high fashion certainly runs on women's dollars
and women's purchasing power. But there was an interview I
read recently with arguably the world's most important fashion editor.
Her name is Stella Bugby, and she is the fashion
editor at the New York Times, and she wrote on
(19:38):
her Instagram stories after Paris Fashion Week this year. Sometimes
it feels like fashion hates women. Now that we've been
hearing lines like that from more feminist, explicitly feminist voices
for a long time, but to hear it from a
fashion editor is really striking someone on the inside exactly.
And she included a couple of examples which are really disturbing.
(19:59):
Address without armholes so you're trapped in it like a cocoon,
aprons that are meant to evoke trad wives. And then
what I found most disturbing a metal contraption that you
put in your mouth that forces your mouth open and
you cannot close your mouth while you're wearing it. And
she said, look, fashion's always pushed the envelope. There's always
been unwearable things on the runway. We know this, but
(20:20):
what she felt was different this year was a sense
of active hatred of women, the very people who are
meant to be wearing these clothes. So my question for you,
Claire is, given that high fashion does run on women's money,
why how can it make good business sense to repel women?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
I guess this you need to kind of zoom out
a little bit and look at where the world is
politically right now too, because there is obviously a move
towards a far right ideology in many places. The US,
which is, you know, tends to be the center of
where the lot of this fashion becomes public for us
to consume. And the tradwife movement has become huge online.
(21:00):
And so there is this move and there is something
called the Marra Lago face, which is you know, plastic
surgery that a lot of the women men who are
especially in and around Trump's camp, are all kind of doing.
It feels like there's a movement. And this has happened
in history before. When women become too outspoken, maybe in
too many leadership positions for the liking of certain aspects
(21:24):
of the community. That then there is a shift, and
that's when women get skinnier, where they are looking at
controlling women more. Where if we can put you in
a mask where no one can see your face, where
you can barely speak to people, that is a statement
which is about silencing a woman. When you put her
in a dress with no arms, you're essentially putting her
in a straight jacket and constricting her and she can
(21:45):
no longer be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Free to move.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
You know, when women of the suffragette moment started wearing pants,
you know, it was like, how dare they have this
freedom to ride a bicycle with ease? Like it's the
same kind of vibe except in reverse, where you restrict
women in the things that they wear, and then they
have to focus on teetering around on heels that might
break their ankles or never sitting down comfortably. That becomes
(22:07):
their focus rather than the focus so of leading a
company or being outspoken about women's rights. Like it feels
like there is a real political statement in dressing women
in a way that makes them so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
It's interesting because I'm not a fashion reporter. Obviously, I'll
all be surprised to hear because you see me every day.
It would be you're fashionable, Hulley, I'm super fashionable. But
one of the interesting things about this is that this
season that we've just seen, that you've been describing with
these very quite shocking looks, also coincides with some of
(22:42):
the key labels going back to having male heads of
their design. It's like the dudes are back in charge.
So those houses have gone back to men, and it's
like they're back in charge of the mojo dojo kassa
house and now they want these ridiculus. They're back to
torturing women in the way that they used to be.
So women are getting smaller, as you've already said, Claire.
And also there's this trend of the tiny waiste that
(23:02):
we saw on Kim Kardashian, and it's called, you know,
a wasp waist, an ant waist, or a barbie waste,
which seems to be appropriate because it's so tiny that
there's no room for the woman's actual organs, a bit
like a doll. And that is actually being achieved, not
necessarily on the catwalks, because we've also seen this return
to really really skinny models who can wear all these
(23:23):
things anyway, but we've seen a rise in a particular
kind of plastic surgery that removes float what they call
the floating ribs, the eleventh and twelve ribs. The New
York Times have written about this. The New York Magazine
has written about this, is that reclaiming the waist is
kind of Any woman will know that one of the
things that will go when your live shifts, maybe you
(23:44):
have a baby, maybe you age, maybe your hormones are
moving around, is your waist. So having a really defined
waist is a symbol of something youth, discipline, all of
those things, and it's back in a big way and
in a way that women are actually harming themselves to achieve.
None of this is very fun, and I thought fashion
(24:04):
was meant to be fun.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But the thing I'm struggling with a bit here is
it's kind of can venient to blame it on the man,
to blame it on MAGA, or to blame it on
the male fashion designers. And Stella says that it's not
just about that. She talked about the ozemplification of the runway.
She said, I don't want to feel like I have
to get plastic surgery or go on a pill in
order to participate in this world. She said, there's no
(24:28):
attempts at body positivity. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
To be honest, I've always felt that, haven't you, That
like high fashion is not for me because I'm not
hard Anna size zero.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, yes, I think to some extent, but I'm seeing
it trickle down not just from the catwalk, but also,
for instance, at that Academy gala where Kim was, the
thing that I noticed was that every woman around my
age and I'm around the age of forty. They all
looked exactly the same. Jennifer Lawrence, Alison Brie, Mandy Moore,
(24:57):
Emma Stone. These women are very powerful women in Hollywood.
They don't need to conform to a particular ideal. In fact,
they got famous looking a particular way, looking a unique,
particular way. They had something that no one else had.
And now all of these women look the same. Their
features had the same, prominent cheekbones, They've all got these
cat like eyes, They've all got Dakota Johnson Fringes. I think, incidentally,
(25:20):
she's very much the paragon of this particular look. It's
very refined. It's giving their po baby, it's giving privilege, and.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
She's also kind of ageless. I don't know how old Dakota.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
She hasn't had children.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I think that's another thing that all these women have
in common, is that they had children and then decided
to come back looking completely different. So I'm wondering why
they all got this memo, what the memo said, and
why these women who actually have a lot of power.
These are not random influences. These are Academy Award winners.
These are women who have been in Hollywood for decades.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Why are they.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Feeling the need to conform to a particular look.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It feels sometimes we lived through a blip for a
hot minute where there was some attempts at body diversity
on both red carpets and fashion.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
It was the twenty tens that was it, right, But
it's terrifying that the most diverse runway show we've seen of.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Ladies the Victoria Secret. Yes, that is why that that
is the most diverse we've got right now.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It did, and it feels like maybe it's like we
live through a blip where people were like, oh, we
need to address this, and now there's been a big
pushback on it, and it's like, no, we don't, and
I don't know. It's really hard, as we often talk
about on this show, to address the individual women that
you listed there, because I know that those women who
(26:33):
were all sort of fated for being on jenuse in
a way, you know, think about Jennifer Lawrence is an
absolute classic example of this when you think about it,
her youth, when she was stumbling up the stairs at
the Oscars and stuff and like giggling at Jack Nicholson
and things was very much part of her appeal.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
This sort of wide eyed, slightly incredulous, innocent with their
wicked sense of humor, felt very twenty two, do you
know what I mean? Like as in she was twenty two,
not the year. And all women as they age wrestle
with this like how much do I find it? How
much do I lean? And these women are under an
amount of pressure that most of us can only imagine, although.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
We're on YouTube, so we can imagine.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, that's true, we can imagine, And in fact, everybody's
on Instagram and everybody's being filmed all the time, and
everybody's in their photos with their friends and going not
that one, this one, so we all feel a level
of that pressure. But I think the women that you've
just listed, as you've said, they're coming back in inverted
commas after maybe a career break, and they're like, I'm
the engineer. I've got to stick there, whether or not
that's them or whether that's the industry telling them. But
(27:40):
it does all feel very much like there was a
moment maybe we grabbed onto it too hard, where we
were like, oh, you know, the things are looking different
in fashion, things looking different on the red carpet. There's
a bit more body diversity, even if it feels a
bit token at times, And now it's like absolutely not,
we are right back to original program.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, and like you said, it's just not fun And
the whole point of fashion is to sell me something,
and I'm looking at all these women who look exactly
the same. First of all, I can't have a free
and it's actually a crime against humanity somebum with hair
as curly as mine to attempt to fringe, So that's
out of the question.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I can't have a fringe. I can't wear the.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Dress of no sleeves because how would I get on
the bus and tap my card? So what am I
meant to buy from all of this? Where is the
fun stuff, the beautiful stuff that is meant to be
something that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I aspire to.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Maybe that's the thing is that they're keeping it separate. Again,
remember when body diversity was at the forefront, it was
more accessible, and then there were designers who came out
and were actually saying, I don't want people of diverse
bodies to wear my clothes.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Carl Lagerfeld, famous li said yes.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
So maybe this is a step back to that, where
they're saying I want my clothes to be seen on
a certain body type and it's not yours. So we
are left to make decisions from a different catwalk, definitely
not these ones.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I just need to pick myself up because, as you
made the point, Amelia, when I was talking about the
men being back in control at Diorchanelle, there isn't a
single woman in charge of a main fashion house, And
you said, but we can't just blame it on them,
and you're right, because there's a very good example that
we spoke about last week, which is Victoria Beckham, who
is the woman who is at the head of her
own eponymous label, and Stella McCartney is the other one
(29:25):
who's notable. But we know that Victoria Beckham also likes
her models incredibly skinny. Fashion designers do hate women in
a way because they get in the way of their clothes.
They're on their inconvenient bodies, with their inconvenient flesh gets
in the way of their clothes. And seeing these shots
that you were talking about before, where models are wearing masks,
(29:45):
models are unrecognizable, it's like, don't look at her, look
at my clothes. Maybe it's also a reaction to when
the models got too big for their boots and they
became more famous than the clothes. I don't know, it's interesting,
but on the fun fact, I think we have to
hold on to the absurdity of watching Kim Kardashian with
a mask over a face or a scarf over a face,
as you've pointed out, being interviewed on the Red Carpet
(30:08):
and talking through her mask about her pubic wigs that
we discussed last week, like, if we cannot all hold
hands and laugh at that, then we really have lost it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, and I'm sorry to the French.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I learned a new term this weekend, which is always
one of my favorite things to do. I spent the
weekend in Perth by the way, beautiful Perth, lovely Perth,
gorgeous at the Festival of Fiction. It was great. I
met lots of great people and one of these people
told me a new term. She was giving me a
lift somewhere to the airport to go home and she said, oh,
this is a trip trap. And I was like, what's
(30:42):
a trip trap? And she said, well, you know when
you give someone a ride and this is particularly relevant
to parents with children, or maybe it's your partner and
there's something you need to talk about. But parents with
children who get to that adolescent age, and everybody who
says the best place to have a difficult conversation is
the car. Yes, that's where because everybody's looking ahead, they
(31:03):
don't have to do eye contact, they can't escape. It's
a trip trap because you're trapping them on your trip
to talk about something important. And this lady was saying
to me that when she drives her husband somewhere now
and then she gets in and he gets in and
she's kind of like, so we really need to talk.
He's like, Ah, this is a trip trap.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
That's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I also do this to my friends when I know
that they are driving to school pickup, Like because we
don't live in the same state anymore. I know what
time they're in the car, and we'll answer my call
and they're there by themselves with no distractions until the
kids get in. And one of my friends in particular
lives in quite a remote area, so her trip to
school is like an hour, so I know I get
(31:46):
her for like a full hour on the phone with
no distraction. She can't work, she can't log into anything,
she can't scroll a thing. I have her full attention.
I love I didn't have a name for it, but
I love a trip trap.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It also makes me think tangentially of when you're dating.
I think it's always easier to sit at the bar
rather than sit facing each other, because eye contact is
such an intimate see killer. In a way, it makes
everyone scared to speak.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
An awkquent after the break the last word in last
words from a TV show that might just be a
good idea for real life too one Unlimited out loud Access.
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma
Mia subscribers.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Follow the link of the show notes.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
To get us in your ears five days a week.
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
So I need to talk to you about something I
basically tied tripped.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Chare I did I trip trapped you? Last week we had.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
To go we were going to do a show at
south By Southwest and we shared a cap and so
you were trip trapped and I tune your ear off
about this this show. So there's a new show on
Netflix and it's called Famous Last Words, right, and it is?
And yes, I'm also trip trapping you into a discussion.
Discussion that's jacent to my friend Gwyneth Paltrum.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Oh okay, I see because.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
The creator and host of this show is her husband,
Brad the Second, as.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Always refer to him.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
That actually known as Brad Falchuk, who.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Is the Duke of Montecito by some accounts.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yes, and he is a TV showrunner. He I think
he's responsible for Glee American Horror Story. He's like quite
a big deal, right, and he's notoriously handsome, but we'll
get to that in a minute. Anyway, the show is
it's an interview show. But the idea is is that
he is interviewed very famous, very very old people and
(33:50):
this is their last ever interview. They've built purpose built
a studio where there are cameras everywhere, but no camera
people in the room, so that it's a completely intimate setting,
just handsome Brad and the celebrity in question, and they
have a very intimate conversation. The celebrity or the famous
person is allowed to request any drink they want, aren't
any props they want to facilitate this, and then at
(34:13):
the end of the interview, Hanson Brad leaves the room
and the celebrity talks director camera in their famous last
words Now, the thing that makes this interesting is that
the show does not air until that person is dead.
So that's why it's called Famous Last Words. It is
based on a Danish show, so it wasn't Brad's idea.
(34:35):
It's based on a Danish show called The Last Word,
which has been very successful in Denmark and apparently there
it's got to the kind of cultural level where when
a big public figure passes away, everybody goes, oh, I
hope they did one of these.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So the thing that blows my mind about this, well,
there are many things and we're going to discuss it,
but is the idea? So Netflix is showing this When
Brad goes to them and goes, I've got this idea,
they've got no idea. If this show is going to
be on once a week, Well it's definitely not going
to be on once a week, but once a month,
twice a year, five times a year, not at all,
because they interview, put it in the can and hold
on to it until somebody is dead.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
I mean there are ways that they could get around that,
but that would be illegal.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yes, indeed, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So you trip trapped me to tell me about this
and it was all I could think of. So I
went home and I watched the show.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So the first one is the.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
First one is with Jane Goodall, the renowned scientist and primatologist.
And here's my first impression. Brad is about a good
an interviewer as you could imagine from someone called Brad,
which is to.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Say, not great. He's not a great interviewer. But here's
what I will say.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
I get the Brad thing now. I never got way
Gwyneth was making the Boyfriend Breakfast for Brad. I never
fully understood the appeal of Brad the second but seeing
him and his warm smile and his kind eyes and
his share collar sweater, I'm kind of in love with Brad,
the only boy.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
The only thing I don't like about Brad is that Cardigan.
If I was quit, I was quit it, and he
was swearing that to go out film his show, I'd
be like Darling, No, I would spill some coffee on it.
They would accidentally rip it with my Boyfriend Breakfast scissors. Anyway,
the thing that's interesting about this is the secrecy that
(36:24):
surrounds it too. Because she sat him down and interviewed
him on her show, and she was like, tell me
who you've interviewed, because she said that Jane good Or
was the last one, the last one to be filmed,
but the first one out because they've got no control
of it. We've got a little grab of her asking
him about it. Interestingly, the first episode to air was
actually the last one that you shot.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
You shot it?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
When when was it?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
You shot that? In March?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So really recently, and you're not at liberty to say
the other people.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
I am not never will.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Let's guess Jane Fonder for sure, of course.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
So it's people in their nineties famous, but he says
there are people at the top of their games, different
games who are in their nineties. So Jane Fonder for sure, I.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Don't know if she's in her nineties. She's getting out.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Adding it there, well, it's in his nineties. Rupert Murdoch
is in his nineties.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Murdoch.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I don't want Brad, the kindly Brad to have to
spend any time with Rupert Murdoch in a.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Seal Sully Bred the second with some Murdock. Can you
know Clint Eastward east I don't want him in the room.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I think Clint Eastwood fish Robert Bradford.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I was hoping, but no, I guess I didn't have
Robert Bradford's.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
True So now when when somebody dies Joe.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
Biden, Oh my god, Joe Biden.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
He's not ninety yet in his Lady No, but you
know close enough. That's a controversial one.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
That's so interesting. The thing is is that, and obviously
my journalistic brain goes here, is that in Brad and
Gwyneth's house. I don't like to cast any aspersions. But
does that mean that when Jane Goodall passed there was
a little bit of Brad little Sillamore.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
No like my show can be released about show.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
So the way it works in practice is the most
compelling part of the show is when Brad leaves the
room and the person just speaks direct to the camera.
And what Jane does at that point. The thing she's
asked for as her accompaniment is a glass of whiskey,
which I love. But it doesn't seem to like drinking.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Woman, he said. In the Gwyneth interview, he said that
Jane was happening whiskey and why the hell not, and that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
She I mean Jane responsibly, but Jane Goodall deserves a whiskey, right,
So he leaves the room and she basically says something
which I found so moving that I found myself starting
to cry, which won't sound that moving when I say it,
because I'm not Jane Goodall and I'm not hammered on
whiskey right now, But.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It was basically like, don't lose hope, Like the world.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Feels dark and I just want you to keep fighting
the good fight, basically, and there was just something from
someone who brings so much credibility to those words, it
felt really powerful.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Glad, do you think there's a real life application for
the idea of this show?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:03):
I was just thinking about that because when and I
have unfortunately been to quite a few funerals in the
last five years, and it always occurred to me that
though some of the people who whose funeral it was
knew that they were going to pass away, none of
them recorded a video message, none of them. And I
(39:24):
was like, I would have like, if I was in
that situation, I would want to maybe some of it
would be nice, but I would also like that opportunity
to tell people who I know will turn up at
my funeral exactly how I feel about them. So they
walk away from their knowing full well how I felt
about certain things that they did.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
But I just I feel like there's.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
Something lovely in And maybe it'd be a bit different
for us because we are we do what we do,
and we have access to audio recording equipment and video
recording equipment. Maybe it's not as easy for you know, everybody,
but you all have a phone these.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Days, it records video.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
But I would love to see people do more video
recordings that get played at their funeral so people can
kind of get that last impression of them.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Murphy, were you It's what you just said. The way
I interpreted that is that you would like the video
message at your funeral to be like you anti Barrel.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Oh sometimes yeah, not all of it.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Like I'll be telling the people that I love that
I love, but I know that there are people who
will turn up that I will have words for.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And you will be like, what are you even doing here? Kevin?
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Yeah, put it out there, and there would be one
name in particular, I say, if this person is in
the crowd right now, get up and walk your after master.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Jane Goodall did say that she wants Elon Musk. Donald
Trump putin and she to get on a spaceship and
go to out of space, which I thought was kind
of great.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know, there was a famous Australian.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Who did exactly what you're advising here to declaire.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Let's take a lesson, fellow Australians. If you are seeing
me now, it means I have been murdered.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
I had to remind you she did that. That was
Pauline Hanson in the late nineties. I think I was
I was in high school. Made a big impression on me.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Why did she do that?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Because remember the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Are you asking me to explain Pauline Hanson.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
I think she remembers Johnny a little bit paranoid, and
so she decided to record this video that would play.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
In case of her death.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
But unlike Brad the second, whoever was in charge of
that video obviously decided to release it.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
The thing that's interesting, I love your take on it, Claire,
that this kind because Jane Goodall's interview, as you might expect,
is actually very classy. She did say some quite interesting
things about her relationships. Because I think the idea of this,
why it's appealing is that you've got nothing to the
idea you've got nothing to lose, so you can absolutely
put everything on blast.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
You have to trust that Brad the second is not
going to leak any of it.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Yeah, well kind of Brad's eyes. I go anywhere and apparently.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
There's there's something involved, or it gets locked away in
a you know, a library.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
With Brad sweater collection.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Oh my god, it should be that's when the collection
deserves to be locked up. But that's the idea I
think is that you so, but I hope they are
because the other thing he said in his interview with
gwinnis which slightly disappointing actually is he said people are
at very predictable in their regrets, Like everybody at the
end of their life was very predictable in their regrets.
He said, all the things that we pay lip service
(42:18):
to all the time, as saying are the most important
things to us, family, loved ones, spending time with our
kids are the things that everybody regrets. And then Gwynneth said,
which is golden. This is the other thing we talked
about in our trip trap familiar enough. He said that
most of these very successful people that he'd interviewed regretted
not spending enough time with their kids because they were
achieving all their great things. And my friend Gwyn says, well,
(42:41):
at least I know I'm paraphrasing her, but it's great.
At least I know I will never have that regret
because I gave up work to spend lots and lots
of time with my children.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Are so great and makes women everywhere feel amazing.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Is what we should all aspire to be.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
But the funny thing about Jane, though, is that she
doesn't really say what Brad says. Everyone says. Essentially, what
she says in that interview is that she loved her
chimps more, certainly more than both of her husbands, true
who she says she should never have married because she
didn't love them I mean fat.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
And reading between the lines, more than her son.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, and he certainly thought so right this her son certainly.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Thought And she said that he thought that with justification.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yes, which is really interesting. So in theory, this is
a great idea, the no holds barred I'm fascinated to
know who else he's done. But I also want to
pick up Murphy's idea of just putting everyone on blast
at your funeral.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh I love it, I mean not everybody.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
My friend mel who passed away a few years ago,
her like, if she'd recorded something, it would have just
been like love and light and telling every single person
in the room the most amazing things about them, and
we a would have walked out of their like all
warm and fuzzy and feeling incredible and sad at the
same time. I mean, I'm not as nice as her,
so there would be words for some people. But there
are some people that I like who would get very
(43:55):
nice messages to and they will walk out feeling lovely.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So you know, out Louders tell us if you only
of your loved ones have got kind of unusual ways
of making sure everybody remembers how you feel about them
after they go. A massive thank you out Louders for
being here with us on Monday. Thank you to you
Claire Murphy for us me always such a pleasure to
have you here, and to our fabulous team for putting
(44:20):
this together. Don't forget you can watch us.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
On YouTube or don't forget.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Why wouldn't you want to?
Speaker 4 (44:25):
I Am going to make up on for nothing. People
go watch this on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
This is one reason why Kim kardash you might want
to wear a scarf overfact.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, you don't have to do glad for me wearing
a scarf on Wednesday?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Can we? Can we all on Wednesday wear a scarf
over I hate for you?
Speaker 5 (44:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Goodbye, friends, will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Shout out to any MoMA Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.
(00:35):
It's what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
twentieth of October. And I am Hollywayen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Right, I am Amelia Luster, and I'm Claire Nephi.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Welcome Murphy. Jesse Stevens is on holiday.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
She is where she flitted off to.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, I can't tell you in case everybody rushes off
to find her. But the poor pregnant with twins woman
is taking a much feeded, little break, little treat, putting
the little feet up, putting all the little feet up
that are inside her at the moment.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Anyway, Oh my gosh, she has six feet right now.
How weird.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
We'll get back to her anyway. Here's what's on our
gender for today. There's a Gwyneth adjacent TV show that's
unlike anything else, and it's all about something none of
us want to talk about, and a controversial cardigan.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Plus, Kim Kardashian wore a pretty unusual dress this weekend,
and it made me wonder just how much fashion designers
hate women.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
And the problem of Prince Andrew for the king and
his heir seems to finally maybe be being dealt with.
But why is Andrew stepping away from his royal titles
now is the question. But first, in case you missed it,
can anyone at this point in time confirm the exact
whereabouts of Rhianna and Hathaway, Sandra Bullock, Kate Lanchette, Helena
(01:50):
Bonham Carter and Sarah Poulsen. No, because in a plot
that feels straight out of Oceans, eight thieves arrived on
motorbike at the Louver yesterday before using a crane or
basket lift to access a window that they opened using
a disc cutter to target the Apollo gallery of the
Louver Museum, where they keep a selection of the French
(02:12):
Crown jewels from back when they had a monarchy, grabbing
stacks of them before getting away just four minutes later.
This happened at nine thirty am, not in the dead
of night when we expect Jull thieves and cat burglars.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
To be at their best.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
It was already packed with tourists and the tour guides
were taking people around for the day and one of
them gave an interview in the street outside and said
they were just in the building they heard a loud
noise from one of the windows before staff told them
all to urgently evacuate. So what is going on here?
Is there a movie happening that we weren't aware of?
This seems wild.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I was very excited by this news. I immediately put
it in our family group chat because I was one
of those annoying Australians who was in Europe this northern summer.
I'm not usually, but this year it was my turn
to be irritating, and I took the kids to France
as out loud as would know. We went to the Louver,
and my kids were particularly my daughter was much more
excited by this crown jewels bit than by the Mona
(03:08):
Lisa and all those, and she posts for all these
selfies where she's wearing this little crown that God's stolen.
But I just assumed, because they're really impressive, they're like
emeralds as big as your fist. There are all these
amazing things. I assumed they were fake. I assumed, surely,
with all these people milling around and obviously they're behind glass.
But I was like, is this really the real thing?
(03:29):
And I'd assume the same about the Tower of London
and the English Crown jewels, but no, they are the
real deal, which is obviously why these guys want them.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Well, French authorities have said the value of what has
been stolen is inestimable, like they cannot put a price.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
On it, and they're gonna have to melt it all
down to sell it.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Who's going to buy it unless there's some I don't know,
Russian oligarch who's like, get me the French crown jewels
and he's just sitting in his toilet wearing a crown
of a long forgotten French monarch.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I think this is the most French story that ever existed.
The French just love frenching on us. First of all,
my unpacked them many ways. This is extremely French.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
First of all, they're jewel thieves. Umber jewel thieves. Also
came up with Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, Kim Kardashian had her jewels stolen in Paris. Elderly
jewel thieves, if I remember rightly, they were like octagenarians
or something. What I want to know is how many
jewel thieves in France are putting jewel thief on their
tax returns because I just feel like there's lots more
of them in France than anywhere else. Second thing about
this is you mentioned Claire that they climbed up on
(04:33):
a crane. Yes, how is no one stopping them and
saying does this crane? Has this crane got a safety certificate?
What's going on with the crane outside the loo?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
There has been a lot of discussion about security and
safety at the loop for quite some time, and it
obviously has not been addressed to their satisfaction. And case
in point, someone was able to park a crane outside
that could access a window.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, and my third point the reason why this
is so French. They managed to get away with us
at nine point thirty am on a Sunday, correct, I
mean no one's awake in France thirty on a Sunday.
This is why it was possible. I proved my point
the French are going to French on us.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, as if you.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Happened to see a cut price crown on Facebook market.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
In the next by it it's legit.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Okay, moving on, how do you solve a problem like Andrew.
Over the weekend, you probably caught that Prince Andrew, that
pesky little brother of King Charles, reportedly Mummy Queen Elizabeth's favorite,
and who also consorted with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, and
seems to have lied about just how long that relationship
lasted in recent emails that have been made public between
(05:38):
the Duke and Epstein, showing he continued to support him
even after he was exposed. Andrew has decided, after some
discussion with the King, to give up all his royal titles.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
He decided the right word yet.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
To that, so he will no longer be the Duke
of York. He'll give up his membership of the Order
of the Garter, which is the most senior order of knighthood,
as well as a bunch of others. He did release
the statement saying continued accusations about him distract from the
work of his Majesty and the royal family, so he
will still be a prince. His ex Sarah Ferguson, though,
will stop being a duchess. She was also caught up
in the emails to Epstein list their daughter's Beatrice and
(06:13):
Eugenie will still be princesses But then on top of that,
London police are probing whether Prince Andrew also asked an
officer assigned to him as a bodyguard to dig up
dirt on sexual assault accuser Virginia Giffray. The Metro Police
said on Sunday they're actively looking into media reports that
Andrews sought information in twenty eleven to smear Geffrey by
asking an officer on the force to find out if
(06:33):
she had a criminal record.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
She did not.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
That is besides the point if you unaware. Virginia Giffrey
took her own life back in April. Her new memoir
is reportedly being released this week. Her family says they're
happy Andrew is stepping back, saying it was a joyous
moment for survivors of Epstein. But Holly as mum and
Beer's royal correspondent, why is this happening now? Has Andrew's
been fighting this for years? As he jumping before being pushed.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I don't think he's jumping at all. I think he
was pushed. I think that this story is so upsetting
on so many levels. Obviously some extracts from you mentioned
Claire Virginia Diiffhrase posthumous memoirs coming out this week October
twenty first that some extracts have been published. It is
the reading is so sobering in terms of how she
(07:20):
was first introduced to Epstein via Mara Lago, which as
we know, is Donald Trump's resort in Florida, about what
happened to her, about what went on with Epstein about her,
and obviously we have to say alleged encounters with Prince Andrew,
because he has always denied, even though he settled out
of court with her, he has always denied that anything
went on there. But she The fact that the royal
(07:42):
family haven't acted decisively on Andrew until it has become
impossible for them to do anything else is so I
don't know what the word is, cowardly depressing. It's because
the thing is is that if King Charles really disapproved
of the way his mum handled this. So when the
first when this all first came out, as you said,
(08:04):
Andrew rumored to be the favorite, she sort of slapped
him on the wrist and there was this discussion about
step back, and he's widely been reported to have been
since then sitting in one of the many manor houses
on the windsor estate watching TV. He likes apparently to
watch planes land and take off like live footage.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Good on him, isn't Charles trying to kick him out
of that house?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
And riding his horses, right, So he's been doing that,
But anytime there's a royal event that he is allowed
to go to, he turns up. He tries to get
front and center, and he's been agitating to get back in.
And the fact that if Charles really disapproved of the
way his mum handled that and was disgusted by his
brother's actions, then the minute he became king, he could
have done this. He could have acted straight away, you know,
(08:47):
he could have said, I'm taking your titles, there's no
more public appearances for you. You're done. But he didn't.
He hasn't done that until the reporting around this story
has become so loud and so unavoidable, and the actions
are becoming more and more despicable. Well, not the actions
that he clearly has been in broad h for a
long time, but now it's unavoidable. The story is unavoidable,
(09:10):
do you know what I mean. It's got to a
point where they can't pretend anymore. It feels so reactive
from the royals, don't you think, Amelia.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I do.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I think there were two things that happened last week
that really prompted Charles to finally take action, and by
the way, the reporting seems to indicate that William was
the one who really had to pressure Charles into doing this.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Two events.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
The first event was, as you mentioned, Virginia Giffra's biography.
There was an excerpt published in The Guardian and there
was a particular phrase that I just could not get
over or get past. And I think these are the
words which finally made the Palace listen to what Virginia
has to say. And she wrote, he was friendly enough,
(09:53):
but still entitled, as if he believed having sex with
me was his birthright. And the reason why I think
those words hit so heavy is because he does have
a birthright. Now, the birthright is not to have sex
with he wants to have sex with, but the nature
of a royal family is that he has a birthright.
(10:14):
And that is why he is sitting in his thirty
room match and watching the planes take off, and that
is why he has lived with wealth that we can
never imagine his whole life, because he does have a birthright,
and that's why those words, I think really affected people
and prompted William perhaps as the reporting goes to speak
to Charles about how it was untenable. The second thing
that happened last week, and this is a bit more
(10:36):
cynical of me, is that another scandal broke last week
with Prince Andrew. He had been meeting it is alleged
with senior Chinese Communist Party officials who were clearly playing him.
They knew that he was a weak link in terms
of the British royal family. So I hate to be
cynical about it, but isn't it interesting that we have
been hearing about what he allegedly did to Virginia Jiffray
(10:57):
for years and it wasn't until there was also a
national security implication from Prince Andrew's poor judgment, that is
him hanging out with the Chinese Communist Party officials, that
Charles finally felt compelled to act.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I think we discussed this a few weeks ago about
how lesser royals are a real problem for the monarchy
because they want to be living in this style of
all their rich and fabulous friends, but they don't actually
get that public income anymore. And famously Charles has whittled
the list down a little bit. William, by all reporting
(11:32):
is going to whittle it down even further. About who
gets to still live high on the hog on the
public purses, they'd say, right, And the problem with that
is that it opens them up to all these They
go and sidle up to all kinds of unsavory characters
to try and get some money, and that seems to
be what Andrew was doing for a long time. Charles
himself has been accused of it before too, and it
(11:52):
was something that drove the Queen match. He was like,
why can't they just sit in their manor houses and
count the pheasants outside their windows, you know, And they're
off like taking bagfuls of cash from Saudi princes and
god knows what. And it just this reporting just makes me.
I mean, everybody who listens to this show knows I
love Royal Goss and I do. And I watched this family,
as I've said before, in the same kind of way
(12:14):
as I watch a soap opera that's been going on
my entire life, you know. But as you pointed out, Amelia,
the birthright and nature of this kind of privilege where
I can get away with whatever I want, I will
always be protected. There have always been problematic royals who
get shuffled away from the limelight. That attitude has prevailed
(12:34):
for a really long time. There's something encouraging maybe about
the fact that we're saying no, But as I say,
it's depressing that it's taken this level of scandal for
Charles to finally allegedly be all the reporting of things
is saying he's furious, Well, why wasn't he furious two
years ago, five years ago, ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
It's funny because.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
We're all for the monarchy modernizing, like we want them to,
you know, be up with us in the moral choices
that we make. They obviously are still lacking in quite
a few areas. But there's a part of me that's like,
if any and Drew had done something to this level
that put the royal family, you know, their reputation at
(13:16):
risk one hundred years ago, he.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Would have been exiled.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Like you know, we saw the queen's father's brother when
he abdicated, he was exiled to another country. He was
basically told he was never to play any role, and
that guy was king for five minutes he was told
never to play a role in royal life ever again.
So whilst they have modernized and they are trying to
do things by a modern standards, there's a part of
me that's like, sometimes that old royal family justice needs
(13:41):
to come. I mean, we're not cutting anyone's heads off,
let's not go that far. Should probably slight disclaimer here.
One of my relatives did cut off the head of
King Charles the first so just.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Spill out there. That's very impressive.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Yeah, so my mum is related to a man called
Oliver Cromwell, who is like a dirty name. So we
just don't really say that out loud, but you know,
not talking about secreting small kings away in towers until
they're never seen again. Not that kind of stuff, but like,
sell this guy, get him out of the public's face.
And he has been but he's allegedly done this awful thing,
(14:15):
and he's been in Cahood's with a guy who's known
to have done awful things and that he definitely would
have been aware of at least some of the things
that he was up to. Like it would be hard
pressed to be that close to someone and not have
any idea of what they were doing, but of course.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
He knew, but I think they had. They think that's
what they've done. They think they have exiled him. But
the problem is is that until this latest progression, So
just to explain a little bit, he's had the Duke
of York taken from him as a title that he's
allowed to use, just as you said, Claire, that Sarah
Ferguson has too, But he hasn't had prince taken from
him because he actually can't have that taken from him
(14:50):
because it is his birthright. So just like Prince Harry
will always be a prince no matter what, Prince Andrew
will always be a prince no matter what. And I
think they think they have exiled him, and as you mentioned,
he's they're allegedly trying to shuffle him into Frogmore Cottage,
which is where Harry and Meg's used to lives. Had
a nice friend of had a lovely renovation. We heard
(15:11):
all about the sprung yoga studio floor. But he doesn't
want to do that. But he kind of has been exiled.
But now I think that the vision of him at
the Duchess of Kent's funeral when he was trying to
cozy up to William, and William was absolutely blanking him.
Gave off this impression of this completely un self aware, bumbling,
(15:32):
self pitying man who was like, it's so unfair that
I'm not allowed to hang around in front of the
cameras with my family anymore. That will be off the table.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
And I think the question that remains for me is
did Charles do this because he had become so quote
unquote furious or disgusted with Andrew's behavior, or did he
do it because he knows that the monarchy needs to
survive and that this kind of scandal, paired with the
Chinese Communist Party spying scandal, just can't work with the monarchy.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Well, that's always it isn't. And we know the Queen
was presented with these kind of dilemmas many times throughout
her time on the throne, and she did have to
make a choice sometimes that yes, the future of the
monarchy is what comes first, and that future does not
look good with Andrews still riding in carriages.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Kim Kardashian this past weekend attended something called the Academy
Museum Gala in Los Angeles, and she wore something that
I found actively upsetting. Let me try and describe it
for you. It was a coture look, meaning that it
had been made especially for her by a French fashion
designer named Maison Margiella Come at me French people, which
(16:47):
included for the second time, to say up today, they
are not happy with me. It included a mask which
covered Kim's entire face. As she was being led into
the event, you could actually see her flailing around with
her arms trying not to fall. And I love this detail.
There's a tablaiud called mirror Us. They went full investigative
(17:08):
reporters on this. They used video enhancement software to figure
out what she was saying to her assistant, because she
looked incredibly panicked. But of course wearing the mask, you
couldn't tell what she was saying. You couldn't send the
well all, so you think, Holly. They zoomed in and
they had a lip rey to figure out what she
was saying through the mesh mask, and it was don't
(17:28):
let go.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I can't see a thing.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So the dress itself, though, Holly, I know you you
actually found the dress even more disturbing than the mask.
The dress, how would you describe the dress.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, the dress itself was also very much on trend,
with this tiny, tiny waiste that I think we're going
to get to in a minute, but it almost looked
like it followed her ribs and then it was so
painful looking.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, there's a lot going on in fashion that is
really viscerally upsetting, and I.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Find it quite fun though, the idea that she's got
to navigate the whole party, like surely.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
At some stage though, she's going to be handed a
glass of champagne.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
And then I think so because I listened to her
interview and call her daddy, and remember when she wore
the all black mask to the Matt Gala. Call her.
Alex Cooper asked her, come on, when you were inside,
you took it off, right? She said no, She committed
to the look. She didn't eat, she didn't drink, she
didn't shouldn't look anyone in the eye. I'm just this
is the least fun party of all ties.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Can I just mention too, I know, like the waist
of this dress you've described as you know, something we
all should be achieving, but it looks edious. It's like
they've pulled her in so tight that like the flesh
above it is having to bulge out across the top
of a corset, and that looks like a It hurts,
and it does not look pleasing to the eye. As
(18:49):
far as like it has beautiful sleeves, I'll give it that.
The bottom of the dress looks gorgeous. But then this
mask that you're referring to, it literally looked like this
used to be a scuff or a shawl, and they
just kind of bloked it over her heead and then
put her big choker chain around it, so now it's
a mask.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
It's just a scarf over her face.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Like I don't I am I into kitture fashion, not overly,
but I just feel like this is I don't know,
this isn't pleasing to look at clothes.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Well, this is what I want to talk about. Who
are these looks for? And fashion is meant to be
for women? Mostly high fashion certainly runs on women's dollars
and women's purchasing power. But there was an interview I
read recently with arguably the world's most important fashion editor.
Her name is Stella Bugby, and she is the fashion
editor at the New York Times, and she wrote on
(19:38):
her Instagram stories after Paris Fashion Week this year. Sometimes
it feels like fashion hates women. Now that we've been
hearing lines like that from more feminist, explicitly feminist voices
for a long time, but to hear it from a
fashion editor is really striking someone on the inside exactly.
And she included a couple of examples which are really disturbing.
(19:59):
Address without armholes so you're trapped in it like a cocoon,
aprons that are meant to evoke trad wives. And then
what I found most disturbing a metal contraption that you
put in your mouth that forces your mouth open and
you cannot close your mouth while you're wearing it. And
she said, look, fashion's always pushed the envelope. There's always
been unwearable things on the runway. We know this, but
(20:20):
what she felt was different this year was a sense
of active hatred of women, the very people who are
meant to be wearing these clothes. So my question for you,
Claire is, given that high fashion does run on women's money,
why how can it make good business sense to repel women?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
I guess this you need to kind of zoom out
a little bit and look at where the world is
politically right now too, because there is obviously a move
towards a far right ideology in many places. The US,
which is, you know, tends to be the center of
where the lot of this fashion becomes public for us
to consume. And the tradwife movement has become huge online.
(21:00):
And so there is this move and there is something
called the Marra Lago face, which is you know, plastic
surgery that a lot of the women men who are
especially in and around Trump's camp, are all kind of doing.
It feels like there's a movement. And this has happened
in history before. When women become too outspoken, maybe in
too many leadership positions for the liking of certain aspects
(21:24):
of the community. That then there is a shift, and
that's when women get skinnier, where they are looking at
controlling women more. Where if we can put you in
a mask where no one can see your face, where
you can barely speak to people, that is a statement
which is about silencing a woman. When you put her
in a dress with no arms, you're essentially putting her
in a straight jacket and constricting her and she can
(21:45):
no longer be.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Free to move.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
You know, when women of the suffragette moment started wearing pants,
you know, it was like, how dare they have this
freedom to ride a bicycle with ease? Like it's the
same kind of vibe except in reverse, where you restrict
women in the things that they wear, and then they
have to focus on teetering around on heels that might
break their ankles or never sitting down comfortably. That becomes
(22:07):
their focus rather than the focus so of leading a
company or being outspoken about women's rights. Like it feels
like there is a real political statement in dressing women
in a way that makes them so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
It's interesting because I'm not a fashion reporter. Obviously, I'll
all be surprised to hear because you see me every day.
It would be you're fashionable, Hulley, I'm super fashionable. But
one of the interesting things about this is that this
season that we've just seen, that you've been describing with
these very quite shocking looks, also coincides with some of
(22:42):
the key labels going back to having male heads of
their design. It's like the dudes are back in charge.
So those houses have gone back to men, and it's
like they're back in charge of the mojo dojo kassa
house and now they want these ridiculus. They're back to
torturing women in the way that they used to be.
So women are getting smaller, as you've already said, Claire.
And also there's this trend of the tiny waiste that
(23:02):
we saw on Kim Kardashian, and it's called, you know,
a wasp waist, an ant waist, or a barbie waste,
which seems to be appropriate because it's so tiny that
there's no room for the woman's actual organs, a bit
like a doll. And that is actually being achieved, not
necessarily on the catwalks, because we've also seen this return
to really really skinny models who can wear all these
(23:23):
things anyway, but we've seen a rise in a particular
kind of plastic surgery that removes float what they call
the floating ribs, the eleventh and twelve ribs. The New
York Times have written about this. The New York Magazine
has written about this, is that reclaiming the waist is
kind of Any woman will know that one of the
things that will go when your live shifts, maybe you
(23:44):
have a baby, maybe you age, maybe your hormones are
moving around, is your waist. So having a really defined
waist is a symbol of something youth, discipline, all of
those things, and it's back in a big way and
in a way that women are actually harming themselves to achieve.
None of this is very fun, and I thought fashion
(24:04):
was meant to be fun.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But the thing I'm struggling with a bit here is
it's kind of can venient to blame it on the man,
to blame it on MAGA, or to blame it on
the male fashion designers. And Stella says that it's not
just about that. She talked about the ozemplification of the runway.
She said, I don't want to feel like I have
to get plastic surgery or go on a pill in
order to participate in this world. She said, there's no
(24:28):
attempts at body positivity. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
To be honest, I've always felt that, haven't you, That
like high fashion is not for me because I'm not
hard Anna size zero.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, yes, I think to some extent, but I'm seeing
it trickle down not just from the catwalk, but also,
for instance, at that Academy gala where Kim was, the
thing that I noticed was that every woman around my
age and I'm around the age of forty. They all
looked exactly the same. Jennifer Lawrence, Alison Brie, Mandy Moore,
(24:57):
Emma Stone. These women are very powerful women in Hollywood.
They don't need to conform to a particular ideal. In fact,
they got famous looking a particular way, looking a unique,
particular way. They had something that no one else had.
And now all of these women look the same. Their
features had the same, prominent cheekbones, They've all got these
cat like eyes, They've all got Dakota Johnson Fringes. I think, incidentally,
(25:20):
she's very much the paragon of this particular look. It's
very refined. It's giving their po baby, it's giving privilege, and.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
She's also kind of ageless. I don't know how old Dakota.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
She hasn't had children.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
I think that's another thing that all these women have
in common, is that they had children and then decided
to come back looking completely different. So I'm wondering why
they all got this memo, what the memo said, and
why these women who actually have a lot of power.
These are not random influences. These are Academy Award winners.
These are women who have been in Hollywood for decades.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Why are they.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Feeling the need to conform to a particular look.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It feels sometimes we lived through a blip for a
hot minute where there was some attempts at body diversity
on both red carpets and fashion.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
It was the twenty tens that was it, right, But
it's terrifying that the most diverse runway show we've seen of.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Ladies the Victoria Secret. Yes, that is why that that
is the most diverse we've got right now.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It did, and it feels like maybe it's like we
live through a blip where people were like, oh, we
need to address this, and now there's been a big
pushback on it, and it's like, no, we don't, and
I don't know. It's really hard, as we often talk
about on this show, to address the individual women that
you listed there, because I know that those women who
(26:33):
were all sort of fated for being on jenuse in
a way, you know, think about Jennifer Lawrence is an
absolute classic example of this when you think about it,
her youth, when she was stumbling up the stairs at
the Oscars and stuff and like giggling at Jack Nicholson
and things was very much part of her appeal.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
This sort of wide eyed, slightly incredulous, innocent with their
wicked sense of humor, felt very twenty two, do you
know what I mean? Like as in she was twenty two,
not the year. And all women as they age wrestle
with this like how much do I find it? How
much do I lean? And these women are under an
amount of pressure that most of us can only imagine, although.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
We're on YouTube, so we can imagine.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, that's true, we can imagine, And in fact, everybody's
on Instagram and everybody's being filmed all the time, and
everybody's in their photos with their friends and going not
that one, this one, so we all feel a level
of that pressure. But I think the women that you've
just listed, as you've said, they're coming back in inverted
commas after maybe a career break, and they're like, I'm
the engineer. I've got to stick there, whether or not
that's them or whether that's the industry telling them. But
(27:40):
it does all feel very much like there was a
moment maybe we grabbed onto it too hard, where we
were like, oh, you know, the things are looking different
in fashion, things looking different on the red carpet. There's
a bit more body diversity, even if it feels a
bit token at times, And now it's like absolutely not,
we are right back to original program.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, and like you said, it's just not fun And
the whole point of fashion is to sell me something,
and I'm looking at all these women who look exactly
the same. First of all, I can't have a free
and it's actually a crime against humanity somebum with hair
as curly as mine to attempt to fringe, So that's
out of the question.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I can't have a fringe. I can't wear the.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Dress of no sleeves because how would I get on
the bus and tap my card? So what am I
meant to buy from all of this? Where is the
fun stuff, the beautiful stuff that is meant to be
something that.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I aspire to.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Maybe that's the thing is that they're keeping it separate. Again,
remember when body diversity was at the forefront, it was
more accessible, and then there were designers who came out
and were actually saying, I don't want people of diverse
bodies to wear my clothes.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Carl Lagerfeld, famous li said yes.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
So maybe this is a step back to that, where
they're saying I want my clothes to be seen on
a certain body type and it's not yours. So we
are left to make decisions from a different catwalk, definitely
not these ones.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I just need to pick myself up because, as you
made the point, Amelia, when I was talking about the
men being back in control at Diorchanelle, there isn't a
single woman in charge of a main fashion house, And
you said, but we can't just blame it on them,
and you're right, because there's a very good example that
we spoke about last week, which is Victoria Beckham, who
is the woman who is at the head of her
own eponymous label, and Stella McCartney is the other one
(29:25):
who's notable. But we know that Victoria Beckham also likes
her models incredibly skinny. Fashion designers do hate women in
a way because they get in the way of their clothes.
They're on their inconvenient bodies, with their inconvenient flesh gets
in the way of their clothes. And seeing these shots
that you were talking about before, where models are wearing masks,
(29:45):
models are unrecognizable, it's like, don't look at her, look
at my clothes. Maybe it's also a reaction to when
the models got too big for their boots and they
became more famous than the clothes. I don't know, it's interesting,
but on the fun fact, I think we have to
hold on to the absurdity of watching Kim Kardashian with
a mask over a face or a scarf over a face,
as you've pointed out, being interviewed on the Red Carpet
(30:08):
and talking through her mask about her pubic wigs that
we discussed last week, like, if we cannot all hold
hands and laugh at that, then we really have lost it.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, and I'm sorry to the French.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I learned a new term this weekend, which is always
one of my favorite things to do. I spent the
weekend in Perth by the way, beautiful Perth, lovely Perth,
gorgeous at the Festival of Fiction. It was great. I
met lots of great people and one of these people
told me a new term. She was giving me a
lift somewhere to the airport to go home and she said, oh,
this is a trip trap. And I was like, what's
(30:42):
a trip trap? And she said, well, you know when
you give someone a ride and this is particularly relevant
to parents with children, or maybe it's your partner and
there's something you need to talk about. But parents with
children who get to that adolescent age, and everybody who
says the best place to have a difficult conversation is
the car. Yes, that's where because everybody's looking ahead, they
(31:03):
don't have to do eye contact, they can't escape. It's
a trip trap because you're trapping them on your trip
to talk about something important. And this lady was saying
to me that when she drives her husband somewhere now
and then she gets in and he gets in and
she's kind of like, so we really need to talk.
He's like, Ah, this is a trip trap.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
That's brilliant.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I also do this to my friends when I know
that they are driving to school pickup, Like because we
don't live in the same state anymore. I know what
time they're in the car, and we'll answer my call
and they're there by themselves with no distractions until the
kids get in. And one of my friends in particular
lives in quite a remote area, so her trip to
school is like an hour, so I know I get
(31:46):
her for like a full hour on the phone with
no distraction. She can't work, she can't log into anything,
she can't scroll a thing. I have her full attention.
I love I didn't have a name for it, but
I love a trip trap.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It also makes me think tangentially of when you're dating.
I think it's always easier to sit at the bar
rather than sit facing each other, because eye contact is
such an intimate see killer. In a way, it makes
everyone scared to speak.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
An awkquent after the break the last word in last
words from a TV show that might just be a
good idea for real life too one Unlimited out loud Access.
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma
Mia subscribers.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Follow the link of the show notes.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
To get us in your ears five days a week.
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
So I need to talk to you about something I
basically tied tripped.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Chare I did I trip trapped you? Last week we had.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
To go we were going to do a show at
south By Southwest and we shared a cap and so
you were trip trapped and I tune your ear off
about this this show. So there's a new show on
Netflix and it's called Famous Last Words, right, and it is?
And yes, I'm also trip trapping you into a discussion.
Discussion that's jacent to my friend Gwyneth Paltrum.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Oh okay, I see because.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
The creator and host of this show is her husband,
Brad the Second, as.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Always refer to him.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
That actually known as Brad Falchuk, who.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Is the Duke of Montecito by some accounts.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yes, and he is a TV showrunner. He I think
he's responsible for Glee American Horror Story. He's like quite
a big deal, right, and he's notoriously handsome, but we'll
get to that in a minute. Anyway, the show is
it's an interview show. But the idea is is that
he is interviewed very famous, very very old people and
(33:50):
this is their last ever interview. They've built purpose built
a studio where there are cameras everywhere, but no camera
people in the room, so that it's a completely intimate setting,
just handsome Brad and the celebrity in question, and they
have a very intimate conversation. The celebrity or the famous
person is allowed to request any drink they want, aren't
any props they want to facilitate this, and then at
(34:13):
the end of the interview, Hanson Brad leaves the room
and the celebrity talks director camera in their famous last
words Now, the thing that makes this interesting is that
the show does not air until that person is dead.
So that's why it's called Famous Last Words. It is
based on a Danish show, so it wasn't Brad's idea.
(34:35):
It's based on a Danish show called The Last Word,
which has been very successful in Denmark and apparently there
it's got to the kind of cultural level where when
a big public figure passes away, everybody goes, oh, I
hope they did one of these.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
So the thing that blows my mind about this, well,
there are many things and we're going to discuss it,
but is the idea? So Netflix is showing this When
Brad goes to them and goes, I've got this idea,
they've got no idea. If this show is going to
be on once a week, Well it's definitely not going
to be on once a week, but once a month,
twice a year, five times a year, not at all,
because they interview, put it in the can and hold
on to it until somebody is dead.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
I mean there are ways that they could get around that,
but that would be illegal.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yes, indeed, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So you trip trapped me to tell me about this
and it was all I could think of. So I
went home and I watched the show.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
So the first one is the.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
First one is with Jane Goodall, the renowned scientist and primatologist.
And here's my first impression. Brad is about a good
an interviewer as you could imagine from someone called Brad,
which is to.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Say, not great. He's not a great interviewer. But here's
what I will say.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
I get the Brad thing now. I never got way
Gwyneth was making the Boyfriend Breakfast for Brad. I never
fully understood the appeal of Brad the second but seeing
him and his warm smile and his kind eyes and
his share collar sweater, I'm kind of in love with Brad,
the only boy.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
The only thing I don't like about Brad is that Cardigan.
If I was quit, I was quit it, and he
was swearing that to go out film his show, I'd
be like Darling, No, I would spill some coffee on it.
They would accidentally rip it with my Boyfriend Breakfast scissors. Anyway,
the thing that's interesting about this is the secrecy that
(36:24):
surrounds it too. Because she sat him down and interviewed
him on her show, and she was like, tell me
who you've interviewed, because she said that Jane good Or
was the last one, the last one to be filmed,
but the first one out because they've got no control
of it. We've got a little grab of her asking
him about it. Interestingly, the first episode to air was
actually the last one that you shot.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
You shot it?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
When when was it?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
You shot that? In March?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So really recently, and you're not at liberty to say
the other people.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
I am not never will.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Let's guess Jane Fonder for sure, of course.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
So it's people in their nineties famous, but he says
there are people at the top of their games, different
games who are in their nineties. So Jane Fonder for sure, I.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Don't know if she's in her nineties. She's getting out.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
Adding it there, well, it's in his nineties. Rupert Murdoch
is in his nineties.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Murdoch.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I don't want Brad, the kindly Brad to have to
spend any time with Rupert Murdoch in a.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Seal Sully Bred the second with some Murdock. Can you
know Clint Eastward east I don't want him in the room.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I think Clint Eastwood fish Robert Bradford.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
I was hoping, but no, I guess I didn't have
Robert Bradford's.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
True So now when when somebody dies Joe.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
Biden, Oh my god, Joe Biden.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
He's not ninety yet in his Lady No, but you
know close enough. That's a controversial one.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
That's so interesting. The thing is is that, and obviously
my journalistic brain goes here, is that in Brad and
Gwyneth's house. I don't like to cast any aspersions. But
does that mean that when Jane Goodall passed there was
a little bit of Brad little Sillamore.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
No like my show can be released about show.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
So the way it works in practice is the most
compelling part of the show is when Brad leaves the
room and the person just speaks direct to the camera.
And what Jane does at that point. The thing she's
asked for as her accompaniment is a glass of whiskey,
which I love. But it doesn't seem to like drinking.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Woman, he said. In the Gwyneth interview, he said that
Jane was happening whiskey and why the hell not, and that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
She I mean Jane responsibly, but Jane Goodall deserves a whiskey, right,
So he leaves the room and she basically says something
which I found so moving that I found myself starting
to cry, which won't sound that moving when I say it,
because I'm not Jane Goodall and I'm not hammered on
whiskey right now, But.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It was basically like, don't lose hope, Like the world.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Feels dark and I just want you to keep fighting
the good fight, basically, and there was just something from
someone who brings so much credibility to those words, it
felt really powerful.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Glad, do you think there's a real life application for
the idea of this show?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:03):
I was just thinking about that because when and I
have unfortunately been to quite a few funerals in the
last five years, and it always occurred to me that
though some of the people who whose funeral it was
knew that they were going to pass away, none of
them recorded a video message, none of them. And I
(39:24):
was like, I would have like, if I was in
that situation, I would want to maybe some of it
would be nice, but I would also like that opportunity
to tell people who I know will turn up at
my funeral exactly how I feel about them. So they
walk away from their knowing full well how I felt
about certain things that they did.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
But I just I feel like there's.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
Something lovely in And maybe it'd be a bit different
for us because we are we do what we do,
and we have access to audio recording equipment and video
recording equipment. Maybe it's not as easy for you know, everybody,
but you all have a phone these.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Days, it records video.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
But I would love to see people do more video
recordings that get played at their funeral so people can
kind of get that last impression of them.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Murphy, were you It's what you just said. The way
I interpreted that is that you would like the video
message at your funeral to be like you anti Barrel.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Oh sometimes yeah, not all of it.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Like I'll be telling the people that I love that
I love, but I know that there are people who
will turn up that I will have words for.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And you will be like, what are you even doing here? Kevin?
Speaker 4 (40:20):
Yeah, put it out there, and there would be one
name in particular, I say, if this person is in
the crowd right now, get up and walk your after master.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Jane Goodall did say that she wants Elon Musk. Donald
Trump putin and she to get on a spaceship and
go to out of space, which I thought was kind
of great.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know, there was a famous Australian.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Who did exactly what you're advising here to declaire.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Let's take a lesson, fellow Australians. If you are seeing
me now, it means I have been murdered.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
I had to remind you she did that. That was
Pauline Hanson in the late nineties. I think I was
I was in high school. Made a big impression on me.
Speaker 5 (41:04):
Why did she do that?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Because remember the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Are you asking me to explain Pauline Hanson.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
I think she remembers Johnny a little bit paranoid, and
so she decided to record this video that would play.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
In case of her death.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
But unlike Brad the second, whoever was in charge of
that video obviously decided to release it.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
The thing that's interesting, I love your take on it, Claire,
that this kind because Jane Goodall's interview, as you might expect,
is actually very classy. She did say some quite interesting
things about her relationships. Because I think the idea of this,
why it's appealing is that you've got nothing to the
idea you've got nothing to lose, so you can absolutely
put everything on blast.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
You have to trust that Brad the second is not
going to leak any of it.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Yeah, well kind of Brad's eyes. I go anywhere and apparently.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
There's there's something involved, or it gets locked away in
a you know, a library.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
With Brad sweater collection.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Oh my god, it should be that's when the collection
deserves to be locked up. But that's the idea I
think is that you so, but I hope they are
because the other thing he said in his interview with
gwinnis which slightly disappointing actually is he said people are
at very predictable in their regrets, Like everybody at the
end of their life was very predictable in their regrets.
He said, all the things that we pay lip service
(42:18):
to all the time, as saying are the most important
things to us, family, loved ones, spending time with our
kids are the things that everybody regrets. And then Gwynneth said,
which is golden. This is the other thing we talked
about in our trip trap familiar enough. He said that
most of these very successful people that he'd interviewed regretted
not spending enough time with their kids because they were
achieving all their great things. And my friend Gwyn says, well,
(42:41):
at least I know I'm paraphrasing her, but it's great.
At least I know I will never have that regret
because I gave up work to spend lots and lots
of time with my children.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Are so great and makes women everywhere feel amazing.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Is what we should all aspire to be.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
But the funny thing about Jane, though, is that she
doesn't really say what Brad says. Everyone says. Essentially, what
she says in that interview is that she loved her
chimps more, certainly more than both of her husbands, true
who she says she should never have married because she
didn't love them I mean fat.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
And reading between the lines, more than her son.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, and he certainly thought so right this her son certainly.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Thought And she said that he thought that with justification.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yes, which is really interesting. So in theory, this is
a great idea, the no holds barred I'm fascinated to
know who else he's done. But I also want to
pick up Murphy's idea of just putting everyone on blast
at your funeral.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh I love it, I mean not everybody.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
My friend mel who passed away a few years ago,
her like, if she'd recorded something, it would have just
been like love and light and telling every single person
in the room the most amazing things about them, and
we a would have walked out of their like all
warm and fuzzy and feeling incredible and sad at the
same time. I mean, I'm not as nice as her,
so there would be words for some people. But there
are some people that I like who would get very
(43:55):
nice messages to and they will walk out feeling lovely.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So you know, out Louders tell us if you only
of your loved ones have got kind of unusual ways
of making sure everybody remembers how you feel about them
after they go. A massive thank you out Louders for
being here with us on Monday. Thank you to you
Claire Murphy for us me always such a pleasure to
have you here, and to our fabulous team for putting
(44:20):
this together. Don't forget you can watch us.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
On YouTube or don't forget.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Why wouldn't you want to?
Speaker 4 (44:25):
I Am going to make up on for nothing. People
go watch this on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
This is one reason why Kim kardash you might want
to wear a scarf overfact.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Yeah, you don't have to do glad for me wearing
a scarf on Wednesday?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Can we? Can we all on Wednesday wear a scarf
over I hate for you?
Speaker 5 (44:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Goodbye, friends, will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (44:43):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Shout out to any MoMA Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description.
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