December 15, 2025 • 42 mins
It's not a usual show today, because it's not a usual day.
At sunset on Sunday, at Australia's most famous beach, Australia experienced the worst act of terrorism ever to take place on our soil. As the local Jewish community celebrated the beginning of Chanukah, families gathered around food, face-painting and even a petting zoo for an 'everyone is welcome' opening to the Festival Of Lights. And two men opened fire.
Some Outlouders will be directly affected by what happened on Sunday. Others will be far removed but asking how this could happen here in Australia, and what they can do to help. Some will just want to talk it over. Today Mia Freedman, Jessie Stephens, Holly Wainwright and Amelia Lester are here to do exactly that.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Today is a different show than usual, because today is
a different day. Last night, as the light was fading
at Bondi Beach, Australia suffered its worst ever terrorist attack
on our soil when two gunmen opened fire on a
family celebration of the Jewish religious festival of lights Hannekah. Today,
(00:34):
we're all, whether we're connected to the place in the
community or whether we're watching and reading from far away,
reeling with the loss of As we record this, fifteen
innocent people, including.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
A ten year old child.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
More than forty people are still in hospital, including two
police officers and more children. As we're recording and throughout
the day, the identities of those affected are coming to
light and it's just unthinkably sad and very frightening. So
today on Mamma Mia out Loud, we're here to talk.
And joining me for this talk are Jesse Stevens, Amelia
(01:09):
Lester and Mia Friedman. Mia, thank you for coming back
to the mic today. This attack did happen in your
community and close to home. Let's start with why last night,
what kind of gathering that was at the beach for Hannakah?
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Yeah, first of all, thanks to all the out louders
who've reached out the kindness, and I know we're going
to talk about that more shortly, but the kindness that
has been shown by so many people has been quite overwhelming.
Hannakhah is just a really simple, happy festival. It's called
the Festival of Light. Ironically, it is a festival that
(01:53):
is about celebrating the triumph of light over darkness, and
it sort of celebrates this old story of a small
band of Jewish people who won against a much bigger empire.
And there was a tiny bit of oil that should
have lasted one day, but somehow, by a miracle, it
kept a sacred flame burning fight. So over the eight
(02:15):
days of Hunterkah, we like candles and we tell the
story and we eat lots of treats. So it's sort
of like a bit of a Christmas equivalent. You know,
some people give presents. It's very family and children based.
It's a very sort of happy festival.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And this festival in Bondai last night was you know,
face painting, There was a petting zoo, there was food
stands all all set up, and a gathering of.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
So many Jewish people.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
You know, some of whom we know are out louders,
and when I've been to synagogue with you Maya, we
are often approached by out louders from that community. And
I think that just first up in terms of who
we're thinking about today, that community, who who were there,
(03:08):
who had this moment of peace and safety interrupted and
you know, horrifically traumatically how that unfolded. We're just thinking
of them, and we're thinking of everyone who had to
send messages and check on their family who were there
and who have experienced the unthinkable overnight.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, it feels a lot of people have said, you know,
obviously for those who don't know I'm Jewish, there are
some people that might not know that I'm some out
louders or people who are new to the show who
might not realize that I'm Jewish, But I am Jewish.
And a lot of people have said, you know, how
do you feel? And the sentiment there's a million things,
(03:54):
and I can't obviously speak for my whole community. I
can only speak for myself. But what people keep saying
is we are shocked, but we are not surprised because
to be Jewish living in any country, you grow up
with a really acute awareness that there are a lot
(04:14):
of people who hate Jews and that your safety is
always precarious, particularly during gatherings.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
And that's why the presence of security is someone who's
been welcomed into the Eastern Suburbs Jewish community as an outsider,
to go to a place of worship and see people
standing out the front, with standing out the front as
security is not something you see when you walk.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Into a Catholic church, no, And it's interesting because we
take that sofa granted, like you know, there's raizor wire
around our schools and our preschools and our daycare centers,
and there is a whole volunteer security army of Jewish
people that work to try and keep the community safe.
And most Jewish events are kept very very secret for
(05:01):
this exact reason always. And what's interesting, this particular Hanuka
gathering was by the Hubbard community, which is you know,
like any religion, there's a there's a spectrum of degrees
of observance observance, yeah, exactly, And the Hubbard community is
very open and they're very you know, one of the rabbis,
(05:23):
the rabbi that was killed, the organizer of the event
who goes by the handle on Instagram at Bondai Rabbi.
He was very welcoming. You know, he just had his
fifth child six weeks ago and he was posting on
social media. He sort of uses social media to try
and and break down some of the anti Semitism and
(05:46):
to promote, you know, the religion as a as a
really positive thing.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
I mean, the New South Wales Police commissioner mentioned I
noticed that the Jewish community does have their own security force,
which I did not know about.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
It's a lot of I have a lot of friends
and relatives of friends.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Of people of all ages.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
But it takes you know, our synagogues and our any
Jewish gathering is we need a huge amount of protection
and you grow up knowing it, and you know, I
always say that they're purely volunteers, but they're very you know,
they're well trained, and my heart's also with them today
because their whole purpose is to try and keep our
(06:33):
community safe.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
If you're not familiar with Bondai Beach, it sounds kind
of like a silly thing to say, because it's no
doubt one of the most famous places in Australia. But
there are be lots of people listening to this who've
never been there. Right, So Bondi is in these and
suburbs of Sydney. It is intensely international. Anyone who would
have been watching the news coverage last night would have
been struck by the all the different accents from all
(06:55):
over the world of the people who were caught up
in this horrific event yesterday. So it attracts people from
all over Sydney and all over the country and all
over the world to see this beautiful beach and ye
yesterday in Sydney was a stunning summer day and at
about six thirty seven o'clock on an eastern suburb city
beach when the weather is like this, there are thousands
(07:18):
of people. So there was this very particular gathering.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
There's just on one part in the park behind the beach.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yes in a very specific place on the beach. But
then all around them there were backpackers, there were surfers,
there are families with their kids, there are people walking
their docks, there are people exercising. This place is very busy,
it's very populous, and I think one of the things
that is so striking about this is that sort of
(07:46):
peace and different degrees of celebration being so horrifically disrupted.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
But for the.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Local community there, the eastern suburbs of Sydney has I
think the second largest concentration of Jewish people in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
The Bondai community is incredibly tight and I've spent time
living in Bondai as well, and you know a huge
number of non Jewish people of course that live in Bondai,
but the Jewish community is also very close knit. And
you write the concentric circles of those two things overlap
very much. And you know the geography is such because
(08:22):
you might have seen bits in online or in the news.
It's like there's Campbell Parade, which is the main road
that runs from one end of the beach to the other.
Then in front of that is like there's a bit
of a car park, and there was that bridge where
the terraces were, and then there's a park that goes
from one end.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
To the other.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Then there's the promenade, and then there's the beach. And
so the where this happened was set up almost like
a little fate, as you said, Jess, with like a
petting zoo and little little market stalls and things.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
And in order to if you are walking to the
children's park, you would go over that bridge like you would.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, we've all been across that absolutely many times.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
And you know at that time there are still people
swimming like it's a surface in the water.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
A very popular time and I can't think of many
places in the world, in fact, where you would feel
safer than sitting on the grass there in Bondai with
that incredible, that calmness, that sereneness like and I think
(09:30):
as someone who didn't grow up in the Eastern Suburbs
but has moved there, you can't look at the Eastern
Suburbs without without the Jewish presence, Like I think it's
one third of the Jewish population in Australia lives in
the Eastern Suburbs. And you see on a Friday night
you see the men in their killers or traditional Jewish
(09:52):
dress and that is part of living in the Eastern Suburbs.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Quite a few synagogues around there, Yeah, yeah, because the
very observant Jews. You need to walk to synagogue. But
it's also the Jewish community, to be clear, is really small,
Like there's one hundred thousand Jewish people in Australia.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
That's tin you tiny tiny.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That must mean though that an event like this, I mean,
for you, last night, everybody knows somebody, I assume. Yeah,
And so everybody's messaging each other, everybody's checking in, everybody's afraid.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And you know, I was having dinner last night. I
didn't I wasn't looking at my phone, and suddenly someone
looked at their phone and then we all checked. And
the sirens, we just heard sirens. We live a couple
of suburbs away from Bondai and the other thing to explain,
(10:46):
and then the choppers and everything. But the other thing
for people to understand is that Bondo is a real
melting pot. People sometimes hear eastern suburbs and think that
it's all she shei and fancy and influences. It's like,
it's not that Amelia. You've you don't live near there,
but you've what's your well.
Speaker 7 (11:06):
I think this is why terrorism is so uniquely upsetting,
because just as Hanakut is a sacred, holy special time
for the Jewish community, the beach is Australians a sacred
place too. And this is what terrorism aims to do.
(11:27):
It aims to make us all feel unsafe by targeting
one community practicing their religion at a place that is
sacred to all Australians that it doesn't get more fundamental
as a breach of what Australia is and what we
stand for.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
And the symbolism of Bondao Beach, you could not probably
find a more iconic symbol of what it is to
be Australia.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
It's the one place in Australia that everyone in the
world knows. They don't know the Harbor Bridge, some of
them know the Opera House, some of them know Ularu.
Everyone's heard of Bondo Beach and what they think of
they think of Bondo Beach is the quintessential Australian lifestyle
that is practiced there, which includes people of all religions
(12:14):
and all social classes coming together to have an ice
cream at the end of what was a quintessential early
summer day.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
And the acknowledgment last night as it was all coming
in and we were, you know, checking on friends and
I'm looking at it.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
You have family that live at Bondai and you're down
in that part.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, you're there.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Offer very with your family, familiar and you're thinking about
the children and the people, they're just practicing their faith.
And I just kept thinking about you flee Europe because
of the Holocaust and the mass migration to the Eastern suburbs,
a lot of it happened after World War Two, post
(12:57):
Holocaust to flee ethnic persecution, and you end up on
the shores of Bondai Beach and you are attacked there.
The unthinkable, unfathomable cruelty of that, and then as we
have learned more about the victims, including one victim who
was himself a Holocaust survivor, as was his wife. To
(13:20):
be killed on Bondi Beach is just I think unsettles
our sense of who we are as Australians and what
we offer people who come here wanting us say for life.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
The truth is that we've been feeling unsettled in the
community for a while now. There's been growing anti Semitism
and what I said about we're so shocked, but we're
not surprised.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is our worst fears realized.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And as I said, when there's such a small community,
pretty much every Jewish person is the descendant of either
Holocaust victims or Holocaust survivors. Usually Holocaust victims. We all
have family members who were lost in the Holocaust. I
have it on both sides, or my kids have it
(14:12):
on both sides of their family, and so that's always
present in our mind. But you're right, there's a certain
sense of suspension of fear that you have to have
to go about your daily life, and you are more
alert when you go to like a synagogue or you know,
I've been to Jewish events, But as you say, there's
(14:36):
something about Bonday Beach because this wasn't like a religious
they weren't practicing their religion. It was just like a gathering,
like a community gathering that anyone was welcome to celebrated
exactly like a Christmas.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Concert like Carols by the Beach or something like that.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
We're going to be back in a moment.
Speaker 7 (15:04):
We wanted to talk a little bit about how this
is a lot more local story. It's it's the top
story on news sites all around the world. I think
it's the top news story in the world today.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 5 (15:18):
I think that that Jewish communities all over the world
are deeply touch.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, But I also think that it is the fact
that a terrorist attack of this magnitude in Australia does
not happen. A usual story Australia is seen and we
you know, we talked about this in different ways, but
as a as a safe place.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
That this, the fact that this has happened in somewhere
so iconically international, is going to be shocking to everybody.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
And to stand in plain sight on a footbridge with
people running around you, I think there's this question. We
are known internationally for our strict, strict gun laws, so
there's also the image of a man holding a gun
pointing it at civilians daylight.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
But they thought there were no guns in Australia.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
They felt very smug, didn't we Like every time they
used to be mass shooting in America, people would say,
thank Heavens that you know that our government enacted strict
gun laws after Put Arthur, which was almost thirty years ago,
and we thought that this wasn't able to happen.
Speaker 7 (16:35):
I think that gun thing is huge. I had people
from the US asking me how did they get these guns.
The second thing is, if I'm frank, I think a
lot of people in America and internationally don't are not
aware of Australia's large Jewish population. Well, as you pointed out,
it's not large. It's less than a hundred thousand people.
They don't think of Australia as a place where this
(16:57):
kind of terrorism or violence happens, so you think of
it as a place where people are pretty much unified,
where this kind of violence is not a staple.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
The other two things are that this is arising anti
Semitism is being felt all over the world, so this
is something that is not just a local Australian issue.
It is something that has been enormously felt.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
And it also just pierces everyone's sense of safety in
the sense that Australia was seen as the safest, So
if this is happening in Australia, people think it really
can happen anywhere.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
The second thing is the proliferation of footage. So that
there were so many people there and it was in
a public area means that there are so many videos.
In almost real time, we were getting images and videos
of those men standing on that bridge. We then got
(17:56):
the incredible footage which we're going to get to of
a man intercepting one of the alleged terrorists. I think
even the footage of everyone running like.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That, every life savers. I mean it was all just
was like something out of a nightmare. Yep.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
The thing is that this kind of horror is very
unusual in Australia, but it is happening elsewhere a lot
more often. And to that point, I wanted to talk
about a contrast that I observed yesterday between two tragedies
unfolding on the same day. And I bring it up
not because a mass shooting in the United States is
(18:36):
especially exceptional now, but because I found the contrast between
how the two national leaders responded really instructive to how
Australians can be feeling in this moment about our leaders.
The mass shooting at Brown University, there was a lot
of confusion, as there often is with mass shootings, and
(18:57):
there was a very long man hunt that took place
after these students had been shot while they were reviewing
for their final exams, and Donald Trump posted on social
media that a suspect was in custody. Now, this was
at a time when students were locked in their dorms.
They didn't know what was happening. This person who had
(19:18):
shot students was on the loose in this very small,
close knit college town, and he posts on social media,
Everything's fine, the suspect is in custody. You can go
about your business. Fifteen minutes later, he had to recount
that post, and he had to say.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Actually, I was wrong.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
I have to say that watching Anthony Albanese's press conference yesterday,
Setting aside the longer you or any kind of political concerns,
I just want to contrast the responses of the two leaders,
because he got up at a moment when we also
didn't know a lot about what had happened at BONDI.
We still don't know all the facts, and he refused
to give into speculation, or to make divisive statements, or
(19:58):
to flame any kind of anger or or bitterness. Instead,
he just struck what I thought was a really appropriate
he said, and I want to read it because I
thought it really hit the right note. An attack on
Jewish Australians is an attack on every Australian, and every
Australian tonight will be like me, devastated by this attack
(20:19):
on our way of life.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I completely agree, and.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
I think the Trump example speaks to the failures and
shortcomings of social media at moments like that, and how
you have this instinct to turn on the news because
you know that the news will blur things that are
not appropriate for all of us to see in the aftermath.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And literally the imagery.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Yes, yes, I know, in the aftermath you can, like
I was terrified to go on Instagram or TikTok or
anything because you can be bombarded with images you will
never ever forget. And the misinformation is so unhelpful, the
misinformation about other suburbs. And then you've got new rumors flying, yeah,
(21:10):
exactly right, and you've got New South Wales Police and
dedicating resources to either investigating those rumors or having to
communicate with the wider public that they're not true. And
I think that even thinking of the social media band
for all it's you know, imperfections, and we won't go
(21:31):
into that, but I just thought, if there is a
moment where it would be great for young people not
to have access to social media, it is this moment.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It is interesting that because I still obviously spoke to
my kids about what they're about to see on social
because kids are still on social Yeah, you know, this
is not the time to go into this, but they
are still all on social media. I spoke to them
straight away about you don't want to see this, like,
you really don't want to see this, and I don't
think they do want to see it, but I know
(22:02):
they will see it, you know, so you I think
that as a parent, it's one of the things that
frustrates people. I think about having that power taken out
of our hands. About once there was a time when
it was like turn off the news, don't put on
the radio, you know, and it felt like you were
in control of what your children were going to consume.
But I know that even if my kids aren't going
(22:23):
to go hunting for that footage, they will be shown
it at school today. They will see it inevitably, and
so that means that it's changed kind of your responsibility
to what to tell them about it, because I don't
want them to hear all that stuff without first of all,
hearing something a bit more responsible and appropriate. Not that
there's any way to soften just such a horror, you know,
(22:45):
the horror of this. It's unprecedented in Australia, and that's
so important. But that was one of the important things
to say to my kids. This is incredibly rare. Here
I will say too, just so everybody understands this, because
one of the things about watching a news story unfold
like this on social is, everybody gets very impatient for
(23:07):
why won't you call it what it is? For example,
last night on the thing, it was like say that
it was terrorism, and the traditional news won't do that
until it has been called that by the authorities. And
in this instance, it was called that relatively quickly because
it was very very clearly terrorism in less than three hours, yes,
and so then all the media could report that. But
(23:30):
what you see on social until that happens is this
boiling anger about why won't you say this and why
won't you say that? And I think it's interesting for
everyone to understand kind of why.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
And I think the aftermath from Chris Mins to Anthony Albernezi.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Chris Mins, the Premier of New South Wales, was or
sorry outstanding. Yes, yeah, he has been outstanding on going.
But I wanted to ask you guys as people who
aren't Jewish. I mean, obviously the Jewish community is just
in such deep shock and distress and we can't even
All they want to do is gather with my community,
but synagogues are closed on the advice of police.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
We can't gather.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
And when you know Chris Mins or whoever is saying,
and the police commissioner, we will increase resources.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
It's like, I don't know what else.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Could people could do, because the levels of security around
any Jewish place of worship, Jewish school, Jewish preschool, Jewish
gathering of any kind is so unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I don't know what else you could do.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
And the terror threat has been probable for a while,
and there was a question about whether that is going
to increase, and I was confused about the meaning of
probable because it was then said there's a fifty percent chance,
and I was like, fifty percent chance, when now any
moment they can't say they say fifty percent chance in
a twelve month period of there being a terror attack
(24:56):
that has obviously happened, they've not increased it. And I
think you can tell from listening to the head of
AZO and listening to the Police commissioner that there is
a lot of intelligence that we are not privy to
and that they are now compiling. But I agree you
(25:16):
think even with all of that intelligence and that you
would think that even a gathering of Jewish people that
there would be increased security.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I don't know what you could have done really to
I mean.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
There's going to be a lot of questions over the next.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
What's interesting to me, though, is, as I said, Jewish
people have been talking about the rise in anti Semitism,
the fact that there are Nazis demonstrating in the streets.
We have been talking amongst ourselves. We have shrunk away
from the world. We have been fearful on a day
to day basis for the last few years. What I'm
(25:56):
interested to understand from you guys is I've noticed that
this seems to be affecting people who aren't Jewish very deeply.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
What do you think that Why do you think that is?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Do you think it would have been different had it
happened in a synagogue and you could have kind of
gone I don't mean to discount it, but you know
that whenever a tragedy like this happens, you sort of
logically look for reasons why that couldn't have been new.
But do you think the fact that it was BONDI
just makes everyone think and gun's what's unsettling.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think it's what Amelia said earlier about the point
of terrorism, because this was terrorism, this is walk Obviously
the target of this was a Jewish celebration. But as
we spoke about at the beginning, there are thousands of
people on that beach. It does affect every Australian because
our very sense of safety was struck at by these people,
(26:49):
these terrorists, and that's the point that they're trying to make.
I want to ask you, though, Miya, because when we're
going to get in a minute to how people can help.
But one thing that people keep saying is wrap your
arms around your Jewish friends and reach out. Is that
(27:09):
what you want people to do? And what does that
look like? And does it feel in any way a
little empty?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
No, it really doesn't.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
And again I can only speak for myself, but one
of the things that has touched me the most has
been people reaching out, like to just say I'm thinking
of you. Just send an emoji, just like if you
know someone who is Jewish, just check on them because
they're devastated and they're scared. And it means a lot
(27:37):
because it can feel very very lonely, you know, it
can feel like, yeah, it can just feel very lonely.
And it's felt like that the last few years. And
you know, without wanting to be self pitying or anything,
it's some of the best conversations I have about this
(27:59):
kind of thing is with my Muslim friends and my
Christian friends and my Catholic friends, people who are of
deep faith, and they are always the first person to
reach out.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
They always always.
Speaker 6 (28:11):
And I think that the in some ways.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
This made me think of christ Church, and that the
innocence of being in a place of worship and an
attack based on faith in that in that moment, which
was just so horrific, I think that speaks to we
are a country founded on multiculturalism and on safety and understandings.
(28:43):
That's why people Australia.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
You know, my parents and my father as families are
immigrants from South Africa, and they left because of as
a political protest against apartheid in the sixties. Because and
they chose Australia because it was a land of peace
and tolerance and multiculturalism and respect for people who don't
(29:06):
share your background or.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Your faith and on. And that's what's so deeply shocking
about this right.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
On that I think watching the response unfold on social
media and watching what is inevitably and frustratingly and anti
immigration backlash that will then move into Islamophobia and suggest
that why were they in our cut like you saw
that come so immediately, and you think that is along
(29:36):
the same continuum. No one wants to as the hate,
but as the hate that just led to this massacre.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
Well that's exactly what terrorists want as well. And to
your earlier question me, I think it's a really interesting one,
and you made me pause and think about why it
shook me so deeply, And I think it's because these
acts of terrorism are designed to make us doubt ourselves
and to make us doubt that our country can hold together.
(30:05):
So if you think about nine eleven, that was sort
of taking aim at the very financial heart of a
city that basically runs on business and finance. And that's
why that was such an effective act. The symbolism of
it and this giant building in a city that is
known for its skyscrapers, or the London Tube bombings, that
(30:27):
is a city that runs on the tube.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That's their arteries of that city.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
And then of course the Bali bombing was striking an
island which really depends and relies on tourism and the
idea of people coming there to have a good time
and to sustain the Balinese economy. This is how terrorism works,
and so in choosing a beach, you are really also
(30:56):
trying to get at the very foundations of this society,
which and what we say is at the beach, everyone
is equal.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
And today is the eleventh anniversary of the Lin Cafe
siege and the two people that lost their lives so
tragically in.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
That terrorist attack.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And it's only what two years, less than two years
since Bondai junction and I think Westfield attack, Yeah, the
Westfield attack, which was it was not terrorists, that was
not terrorism, that was a loan attacker. But what that
did to sow the seeds of discomfort within a community
(31:39):
that you could just be going along doing your shopping
with your family, but for the grace of God, which
is of this this feels like that all over again.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
We're going to be back in a moment to talk
about how you can help and the people who did
help on the day. The entire world is talking about
Ahmed al Hmed today. He is the white T shirt guy,
(32:11):
the man who wrestled the gun from the hands of
one of the terrorists right as he was aiming it
at innocent families running to hide from his bullets. Al
Ahmed is in hospital today. After he took that gun,
he pointed it at the shooter, but he didn't pull
the trigger. He put the gun down, he put his
hands up, and he was under fire from the second
shooter on the bridge, and he took a bullet in
(32:32):
the shoulder as the second shooter was shooting from the bridge. Today,
we've learned a little bit more about Hmed because his cousin,
who was with him last night, has spoken outside hospital,
and we found out a few more things about him
we did.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
We know that he came from Syria more than a
decade ago, and he's a father to two little girls.
And there was this really moving detail which I just
think illustrates the connection between so many communities in US.
(33:07):
But he was walking through the festival and they offered
him food and he was sort of on his way
to get a coffee, but only moments later that community
was being horrifically shot at.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
HMED's cousin says that that was about ten minutes before
they found themselves caught up in all this, and he
says that Ahmed said, just before he went into tackle
the gunment, he told his cousin, I'm going to die.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
He said, I want my family to know that I
went down trying to save lives.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
It's incredibly moving, and you know, the world is, as
I've said, the world is calling him a hero, and
I think this probably fewer times that that word is
more apt. Yeah, his actions and the fact that, as
you said before, Jesse, that it was caught on films
so clearly have absolutely stunned the world. There are articles
(34:00):
about that man in British newspapers all over American side.
Speaker 7 (34:04):
And look, even Donald Trump mentioned him, and he's really
I think the whole world's talking about him today.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean, what a hero it was.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
So you know, they always say when you're feeling absolutely despair,
look for the helpers and you need to have your
spirits lifted. Look to the people who run towards the danger.
And armad al Ahmed there's no one who could. He
had no experience with guns. He just was a passer by.
He wasn't there for the Hunuker celebrations. He just was
(34:34):
at the beach.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
People are saying it's the most extraordinary footage they've ever seen.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Yeah, and I heard ABC News were speculating that he
must have been a plane clothed.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Police officer. They kept saying, I thought, for.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Someone trained in the army, he didn't seem like I
had never picked up a gun before. But I was
so moved by the way he put the gun down
because he was being shot at, and the footage of
after he disarmed that man who's sort of cow as
if to say, don't shoot me.
Speaker 5 (35:09):
But the fact that the average Australian would not even
know what way to hold a gun, and that was
the thing. He didn't know what to do with it
because he had probably never had a gun in his
hands before.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm sure we'll hear, well, we will hear his story.
I'm sure when he gets out of hospital. His family
been speaking to the media a little bit today and
saying that they're just obviously hoping for a quick recovery
for him. The thing is is that his act of
bravery it kind of shone a light on all across
that beach in that moment, all the little acts of
bravery that were happening. There were people who were bystandards.
(35:41):
There were surf life savers sprinting for first aid kits,
there were surfers carrying people on their boards as stretchers.
And then the paramedics come and they are running into
a live fire situation and yes it's their job, but
my god, and they are They said that cops were
jumping into the ambulances and driving them to hospitals with
the the paramedics could keep working in the back because
(36:02):
it was all hands on deck. Unprecedented. We've said that
a lot today is that Australia is supposed to be
safe and this isn't supposed to happen here. And generally speaking,
it doesn't happen here, you know. So it's not like
we've got forces of people who are dealing with this
every day. And the level of bravery from Ahmed, from
the other people on the beach, the parents who are
(36:23):
standing in front of their kids, the husband who died
protecting his wife from gunfire, the shopkeepers who let people
run in and hide in their back I mean this.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
It has become like a cliche.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
To say look for the helpers, look for the light,
as we were saying, But it matters. I think it
really matters because you can you can feel so dark and.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
So and that's what is. It's about the triumph of
light over darkness. It's about that good will triumph over evil.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
In that same video, I was struck by two other helpers.
There was a man who threw an object, yeah, a
powering terrorist, and I just her axposed ere and then
I was very moved by this as armored el armored
(37:13):
gingerly put the gun by a tree. Another person ran up,
I think, just to be by his side because they
could see that he was in this extraordinary situation. And
the two people, I think it was another man, the
two men hid together behind a tree.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
And what's remarkable is that that would have been all
on instinct, right, And you see people who were at
the beach will have had a range of different responses
to what happened, whether it was that they froze or
they ran, or they fought. And so to see that
man working on instinct, that's like the majority of people
(37:56):
are good and they and they want to help. And
we're seeing that today with Lifeblood, who has said they've
said one thing you can do is donate blood that
came directly from the premiere and for some people who
need blood, they might need one hundred donations, right.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
And they are accused as a Red Blood bank across
the road from our office, and they're accused everywhere. There
are mobile blood banks being set up because it's going
into the holiday season, which already is a really tough
time of.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
High need for the blood bank.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Also the doctors and the nurses that were called into
hospitals yesterday, all the first responders who ran towards the danger, and.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Many who you know within I know through the community,
many whom are Jewish and are then dealing with this
personal trauma and then having to act and being called on.
There were messages going around that New South Wales health
workers were kind of going to just as you say,
(39:03):
all hands on deck, but to see the lines around
the corner and lifeblood to say, okay, we're being inundated,
try and book in. It's just such a reminder that
if you have any time off over this period, that
it is moments like this that there needs to be
supply because they are sending it across states.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And that all time to do.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
It's such a practical good thing to do, especially if
you have own negative blood.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
So that's something that people can do today.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
They were saying that even if you can't get in today,
you can keep going.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It was all booked out today.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I jumped on last night and I couldn't get in
until sort of Wednesday or Thursday this week.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
The local member for went with a leg responder also
encourages people to donate to local mental health charities, particularly
for use to deal with some of the trauma of
the community, obviously the community of people who were at
the Hannock event, but also the trauma of the community
of people who are at the beach that day and
who have witnessed.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
All of this.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
And the Bondai community in general.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Said to me or I've got my whole you know,
hundreds of Catholics messaging sending love to the Jewish side
of the family and how they would really like to
just all stand outside the synagogues this week and just
make sure that you know, like and how do you
ensure that there's there's safety.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, that means a lot, you know, that means a lot.
And also just be careful of words. Words. You know,
words are not violence, but they can lead to violence.
And there's been a lot of very inflammatory language about
Jewish people over the last few years, particularly on social media, and.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Just the result those things can sometimes lead to horrifying actions,
as we saw yesterday.
Speaker 6 (41:11):
Out Louders.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Obviously, we're recording this at lunchtime on Monday, and as
we're talking details are coming out, so we haven't been
sharing names of the victims because we know there is
much more to come heartbreakingly, but as we're recording this,
the New South Wales Authority say that fifteen people have
been killed, plus one of the gunmen. The dead include
(41:35):
a ten year old girl. The two gunmen are a
father and son. Forty two people were taken into hospital,
including two police officers who remain in a critical condition.
Those are the facts as we record this now. But
what's behind those facts, of course, is so much pain
and fear and heartbreak. And I just want all of
(41:55):
the out louders to know that from all of us,
we're sending everybody affected an enormous amount of love and
if this day is particularly heavy for you, please.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Know that help is available.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You can call life Line on thirteen eleven fourteen and
we're going to be back in your ears with something
a little bit more like usual programming tomorrow and for
the rest of the week.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Goodbye, out loud As, We love you.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Today is a different show than usual, because today is
a different day. Last night, as the light was fading
at Bondi Beach, Australia suffered its worst ever terrorist attack
on our soil when two gunmen opened fire on a
family celebration of the Jewish religious festival of lights Hannekah. Today,
(00:34):
we're all, whether we're connected to the place in the
community or whether we're watching and reading from far away,
reeling with the loss of As we record this, fifteen
innocent people, including.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
A ten year old child.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
More than forty people are still in hospital, including two
police officers and more children. As we're recording and throughout
the day, the identities of those affected are coming to
light and it's just unthinkably sad and very frightening. So
today on Mamma Mia out Loud, we're here to talk.
And joining me for this talk are Jesse Stevens, Amelia
(01:09):
Lester and Mia Friedman. Mia, thank you for coming back
to the mic today. This attack did happen in your
community and close to home. Let's start with why last night,
what kind of gathering that was at the beach for Hannakah?
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Yeah, first of all, thanks to all the out louders
who've reached out the kindness, and I know we're going
to talk about that more shortly, but the kindness that
has been shown by so many people has been quite overwhelming.
Hannakhah is just a really simple, happy festival. It's called
the Festival of Light. Ironically, it is a festival that
(01:53):
is about celebrating the triumph of light over darkness, and
it sort of celebrates this old story of a small
band of Jewish people who won against a much bigger empire.
And there was a tiny bit of oil that should
have lasted one day, but somehow, by a miracle, it
kept a sacred flame burning fight. So over the eight
(02:15):
days of Hunterkah, we like candles and we tell the
story and we eat lots of treats. So it's sort
of like a bit of a Christmas equivalent. You know,
some people give presents. It's very family and children based.
It's a very sort of happy festival.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And this festival in Bondai last night was you know,
face painting, There was a petting zoo, there was food
stands all all set up, and a gathering of.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
So many Jewish people.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
You know, some of whom we know are out louders,
and when I've been to synagogue with you Maya, we
are often approached by out louders from that community. And
I think that just first up in terms of who
we're thinking about today, that community, who who were there,
(03:08):
who had this moment of peace and safety interrupted and
you know, horrifically traumatically how that unfolded. We're just thinking
of them, and we're thinking of everyone who had to
send messages and check on their family who were there
and who have experienced the unthinkable overnight.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, it feels a lot of people have said, you know,
obviously for those who don't know I'm Jewish, there are
some people that might not know that I'm some out
louders or people who are new to the show who
might not realize that I'm Jewish, But I am Jewish.
And a lot of people have said, you know, how
do you feel? And the sentiment there's a million things,
(03:54):
and I can't obviously speak for my whole community. I
can only speak for myself. But what people keep saying
is we are shocked, but we are not surprised because
to be Jewish living in any country, you grow up
with a really acute awareness that there are a lot
(04:14):
of people who hate Jews and that your safety is
always precarious, particularly during gatherings.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
And that's why the presence of security is someone who's
been welcomed into the Eastern Suburbs Jewish community as an outsider,
to go to a place of worship and see people
standing out the front, with standing out the front as
security is not something you see when you walk.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Into a Catholic church, no, And it's interesting because we
take that sofa granted, like you know, there's raizor wire
around our schools and our preschools and our daycare centers,
and there is a whole volunteer security army of Jewish
people that work to try and keep the community safe.
And most Jewish events are kept very very secret for
(05:01):
this exact reason always. And what's interesting, this particular Hanuka
gathering was by the Hubbard community, which is you know,
like any religion, there's a there's a spectrum of degrees
of observance observance, yeah, exactly, And the Hubbard community is
very open and they're very you know, one of the rabbis,
(05:23):
the rabbi that was killed, the organizer of the event
who goes by the handle on Instagram at Bondai Rabbi.
He was very welcoming. You know, he just had his
fifth child six weeks ago and he was posting on
social media. He sort of uses social media to try
and and break down some of the anti Semitism and
(05:46):
to promote, you know, the religion as a as a
really positive thing.
Speaker 7 (05:51):
I mean, the New South Wales Police commissioner mentioned I
noticed that the Jewish community does have their own security force,
which I did not know about.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
It's a lot of I have a lot of friends
and relatives of friends.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Of people of all ages.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
But it takes you know, our synagogues and our any
Jewish gathering is we need a huge amount of protection
and you grow up knowing it, and you know, I
always say that they're purely volunteers, but they're very you know,
they're well trained, and my heart's also with them today
because their whole purpose is to try and keep our
(06:33):
community safe.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
If you're not familiar with Bondai Beach, it sounds kind
of like a silly thing to say, because it's no
doubt one of the most famous places in Australia. But
there are be lots of people listening to this who've
never been there. Right, So Bondi is in these and
suburbs of Sydney. It is intensely international. Anyone who would
have been watching the news coverage last night would have
been struck by the all the different accents from all
(06:55):
over the world of the people who were caught up
in this horrific event yesterday. So it attracts people from
all over Sydney and all over the country and all
over the world to see this beautiful beach and ye
yesterday in Sydney was a stunning summer day and at
about six thirty seven o'clock on an eastern suburb city
beach when the weather is like this, there are thousands
(07:18):
of people. So there was this very particular gathering.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
There's just on one part in the park behind the beach.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yes in a very specific place on the beach. But
then all around them there were backpackers, there were surfers,
there are families with their kids, there are people walking
their docks, there are people exercising. This place is very busy,
it's very populous, and I think one of the things
that is so striking about this is that sort of
(07:46):
peace and different degrees of celebration being so horrifically disrupted.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
But for the.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Local community there, the eastern suburbs of Sydney has I
think the second largest concentration of Jewish people in the country.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
The Bondai community is incredibly tight and I've spent time
living in Bondai as well, and you know a huge
number of non Jewish people of course that live in Bondai,
but the Jewish community is also very close knit. And
you write the concentric circles of those two things overlap
very much. And you know the geography is such because
(08:22):
you might have seen bits in online or in the news.
It's like there's Campbell Parade, which is the main road
that runs from one end of the beach to the other.
Then in front of that is like there's a bit
of a car park, and there was that bridge where
the terraces were, and then there's a park that goes
from one end.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
To the other.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Then there's the promenade, and then there's the beach. And
so the where this happened was set up almost like
a little fate, as you said, Jess, with like a
petting zoo and little little market stalls and things.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
And in order to if you are walking to the
children's park, you would go over that bridge like you would.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, we've all been across that absolutely many times.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
And you know at that time there are still people
swimming like it's a surface in the water.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
A very popular time and I can't think of many
places in the world, in fact, where you would feel
safer than sitting on the grass there in Bondai with
that incredible, that calmness, that sereneness like and I think
(09:30):
as someone who didn't grow up in the Eastern Suburbs
but has moved there, you can't look at the Eastern
Suburbs without without the Jewish presence, Like I think it's
one third of the Jewish population in Australia lives in
the Eastern Suburbs. And you see on a Friday night
you see the men in their killers or traditional Jewish
(09:52):
dress and that is part of living in the Eastern Suburbs.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Quite a few synagogues around there, Yeah, yeah, because the
very observant Jews. You need to walk to synagogue. But
it's also the Jewish community, to be clear, is really small,
Like there's one hundred thousand Jewish people in Australia.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
That's tin you tiny tiny.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That must mean though that an event like this, I mean,
for you, last night, everybody knows somebody, I assume. Yeah,
And so everybody's messaging each other, everybody's checking in, everybody's afraid.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
And you know, I was having dinner last night. I
didn't I wasn't looking at my phone, and suddenly someone
looked at their phone and then we all checked. And
the sirens, we just heard sirens. We live a couple
of suburbs away from Bondai and the other thing to explain,
(10:46):
and then the choppers and everything. But the other thing
for people to understand is that Bondo is a real
melting pot. People sometimes hear eastern suburbs and think that
it's all she shei and fancy and influences. It's like,
it's not that Amelia. You've you don't live near there,
but you've what's your well.
Speaker 7 (11:06):
I think this is why terrorism is so uniquely upsetting,
because just as Hanakut is a sacred, holy special time
for the Jewish community, the beach is Australians a sacred
place too. And this is what terrorism aims to do.
(11:27):
It aims to make us all feel unsafe by targeting
one community practicing their religion at a place that is
sacred to all Australians that it doesn't get more fundamental
as a breach of what Australia is and what we
stand for.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
And the symbolism of Bondao Beach, you could not probably
find a more iconic symbol of what it is to
be Australia.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
It's the one place in Australia that everyone in the
world knows. They don't know the Harbor Bridge, some of
them know the Opera House, some of them know Ularu.
Everyone's heard of Bondo Beach and what they think of
they think of Bondo Beach is the quintessential Australian lifestyle
that is practiced there, which includes people of all religions
(12:14):
and all social classes coming together to have an ice
cream at the end of what was a quintessential early
summer day.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
And the acknowledgment last night as it was all coming
in and we were, you know, checking on friends and
I'm looking at it.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
You have family that live at Bondai and you're down
in that part.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, you're there.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Offer very with your family, familiar and you're thinking about
the children and the people, they're just practicing their faith.
And I just kept thinking about you flee Europe because
of the Holocaust and the mass migration to the Eastern suburbs,
a lot of it happened after World War Two, post
(12:57):
Holocaust to flee ethnic persecution, and you end up on
the shores of Bondai Beach and you are attacked there.
The unthinkable, unfathomable cruelty of that, and then as we
have learned more about the victims, including one victim who
was himself a Holocaust survivor, as was his wife. To
(13:20):
be killed on Bondi Beach is just I think unsettles
our sense of who we are as Australians and what
we offer people who come here wanting us say for life.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
The truth is that we've been feeling unsettled in the
community for a while now. There's been growing anti Semitism
and what I said about we're so shocked, but we're
not surprised.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is our worst fears realized.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
And as I said, when there's such a small community,
pretty much every Jewish person is the descendant of either
Holocaust victims or Holocaust survivors. Usually Holocaust victims. We all
have family members who were lost in the Holocaust. I
have it on both sides, or my kids have it
(14:12):
on both sides of their family, and so that's always
present in our mind. But you're right, there's a certain
sense of suspension of fear that you have to have
to go about your daily life, and you are more
alert when you go to like a synagogue or you know,
I've been to Jewish events, But as you say, there's
(14:36):
something about Bonday Beach because this wasn't like a religious
they weren't practicing their religion. It was just like a gathering,
like a community gathering that anyone was welcome to celebrated
exactly like a Christmas.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Concert like Carols by the Beach or something like that.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
We're going to be back in a moment.
Speaker 7 (15:04):
We wanted to talk a little bit about how this
is a lot more local story. It's it's the top
story on news sites all around the world. I think
it's the top news story in the world today.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 5 (15:18):
I think that that Jewish communities all over the world
are deeply touch.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, But I also think that it is the fact
that a terrorist attack of this magnitude in Australia does
not happen. A usual story Australia is seen and we
you know, we talked about this in different ways, but
as a as a safe place.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
That this, the fact that this has happened in somewhere
so iconically international, is going to be shocking to everybody.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
And to stand in plain sight on a footbridge with
people running around you, I think there's this question. We
are known internationally for our strict, strict gun laws, so
there's also the image of a man holding a gun
pointing it at civilians daylight.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
But they thought there were no guns in Australia.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
They felt very smug, didn't we Like every time they
used to be mass shooting in America, people would say,
thank Heavens that you know that our government enacted strict
gun laws after Put Arthur, which was almost thirty years ago,
and we thought that this wasn't able to happen.
Speaker 7 (16:35):
I think that gun thing is huge. I had people
from the US asking me how did they get these guns.
The second thing is, if I'm frank, I think a
lot of people in America and internationally don't are not
aware of Australia's large Jewish population. Well, as you pointed out,
it's not large. It's less than a hundred thousand people.
They don't think of Australia as a place where this
(16:57):
kind of terrorism or violence happens, so you think of
it as a place where people are pretty much unified,
where this kind of violence is not a staple.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
The other two things are that this is arising anti
Semitism is being felt all over the world, so this
is something that is not just a local Australian issue.
It is something that has been enormously felt.
Speaker 7 (17:24):
And it also just pierces everyone's sense of safety in
the sense that Australia was seen as the safest, So
if this is happening in Australia, people think it really
can happen anywhere.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
The second thing is the proliferation of footage. So that
there were so many people there and it was in
a public area means that there are so many videos.
In almost real time, we were getting images and videos
of those men standing on that bridge. We then got
(17:56):
the incredible footage which we're going to get to of
a man intercepting one of the alleged terrorists. I think
even the footage of everyone running like.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That, every life savers. I mean it was all just
was like something out of a nightmare. Yep.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
The thing is that this kind of horror is very
unusual in Australia, but it is happening elsewhere a lot
more often. And to that point, I wanted to talk
about a contrast that I observed yesterday between two tragedies
unfolding on the same day. And I bring it up
not because a mass shooting in the United States is
(18:36):
especially exceptional now, but because I found the contrast between
how the two national leaders responded really instructive to how
Australians can be feeling in this moment about our leaders.
The mass shooting at Brown University, there was a lot
of confusion, as there often is with mass shootings, and
(18:57):
there was a very long man hunt that took place
after these students had been shot while they were reviewing
for their final exams, and Donald Trump posted on social
media that a suspect was in custody. Now, this was
at a time when students were locked in their dorms.
They didn't know what was happening. This person who had
(19:18):
shot students was on the loose in this very small,
close knit college town, and he posts on social media,
Everything's fine, the suspect is in custody. You can go
about your business. Fifteen minutes later, he had to recount
that post, and he had to say.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Actually, I was wrong.
Speaker 7 (19:34):
I have to say that watching Anthony Albanese's press conference yesterday,
Setting aside the longer you or any kind of political concerns,
I just want to contrast the responses of the two leaders,
because he got up at a moment when we also
didn't know a lot about what had happened at BONDI.
We still don't know all the facts, and he refused
to give into speculation, or to make divisive statements, or
(19:58):
to flame any kind of anger or or bitterness. Instead,
he just struck what I thought was a really appropriate
he said, and I want to read it because I
thought it really hit the right note. An attack on
Jewish Australians is an attack on every Australian, and every
Australian tonight will be like me, devastated by this attack
(20:19):
on our way of life.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
I completely agree, and.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
I think the Trump example speaks to the failures and
shortcomings of social media at moments like that, and how
you have this instinct to turn on the news because
you know that the news will blur things that are
not appropriate for all of us to see in the aftermath.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And literally the imagery.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Yes, yes, I know, in the aftermath you can, like
I was terrified to go on Instagram or TikTok or
anything because you can be bombarded with images you will
never ever forget. And the misinformation is so unhelpful, the
misinformation about other suburbs. And then you've got new rumors flying, yeah,
(21:10):
exactly right, and you've got New South Wales Police and
dedicating resources to either investigating those rumors or having to
communicate with the wider public that they're not true. And
I think that even thinking of the social media band
for all it's you know, imperfections, and we won't go
(21:31):
into that, but I just thought, if there is a
moment where it would be great for young people not
to have access to social media, it is this moment.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It is interesting that because I still obviously spoke to
my kids about what they're about to see on social
because kids are still on social Yeah, you know, this
is not the time to go into this, but they
are still all on social media. I spoke to them
straight away about you don't want to see this, like,
you really don't want to see this, and I don't
think they do want to see it, but I know
(22:02):
they will see it, you know, so you I think
that as a parent, it's one of the things that
frustrates people. I think about having that power taken out
of our hands. About once there was a time when
it was like turn off the news, don't put on
the radio, you know, and it felt like you were
in control of what your children were going to consume.
But I know that even if my kids aren't going
(22:23):
to go hunting for that footage, they will be shown
it at school today. They will see it inevitably, and
so that means that it's changed kind of your responsibility
to what to tell them about it, because I don't
want them to hear all that stuff without first of all,
hearing something a bit more responsible and appropriate. Not that
there's any way to soften just such a horror, you know,
(22:45):
the horror of this. It's unprecedented in Australia, and that's
so important. But that was one of the important things
to say to my kids. This is incredibly rare. Here
I will say too, just so everybody understands this, because
one of the things about watching a news story unfold
like this on social is, everybody gets very impatient for
(23:07):
why won't you call it what it is? For example,
last night on the thing, it was like say that
it was terrorism, and the traditional news won't do that
until it has been called that by the authorities. And
in this instance, it was called that relatively quickly because
it was very very clearly terrorism in less than three hours, yes,
and so then all the media could report that. But
(23:30):
what you see on social until that happens is this
boiling anger about why won't you say this and why
won't you say that? And I think it's interesting for
everyone to understand kind of why.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
And I think the aftermath from Chris Mins to Anthony Albernezi.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Chris Mins, the Premier of New South Wales, was or
sorry outstanding. Yes, yeah, he has been outstanding on going.
But I wanted to ask you guys as people who
aren't Jewish. I mean, obviously the Jewish community is just
in such deep shock and distress and we can't even
All they want to do is gather with my community,
but synagogues are closed on the advice of police.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
We can't gather.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
And when you know Chris Mins or whoever is saying,
and the police commissioner, we will increase resources.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
It's like, I don't know what else.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Could people could do, because the levels of security around
any Jewish place of worship, Jewish school, Jewish preschool, Jewish
gathering of any kind is so unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I don't know what else you could do.
Speaker 5 (24:34):
And the terror threat has been probable for a while,
and there was a question about whether that is going
to increase, and I was confused about the meaning of
probable because it was then said there's a fifty percent chance,
and I was like, fifty percent chance, when now any
moment they can't say they say fifty percent chance in
a twelve month period of there being a terror attack
(24:56):
that has obviously happened, they've not increased it. And I
think you can tell from listening to the head of
AZO and listening to the Police commissioner that there is
a lot of intelligence that we are not privy to
and that they are now compiling. But I agree you
(25:16):
think even with all of that intelligence and that you
would think that even a gathering of Jewish people that
there would be increased security.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
I don't know what you could have done really to
I mean.
Speaker 6 (25:31):
There's going to be a lot of questions over the next.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
What's interesting to me, though, is, as I said, Jewish
people have been talking about the rise in anti Semitism,
the fact that there are Nazis demonstrating in the streets.
We have been talking amongst ourselves. We have shrunk away
from the world. We have been fearful on a day
to day basis for the last few years. What I'm
(25:56):
interested to understand from you guys is I've noticed that
this seems to be affecting people who aren't Jewish very deeply.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
What do you think that Why do you think that is?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Do you think it would have been different had it
happened in a synagogue and you could have kind of
gone I don't mean to discount it, but you know
that whenever a tragedy like this happens, you sort of
logically look for reasons why that couldn't have been new.
But do you think the fact that it was BONDI
just makes everyone think and gun's what's unsettling.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think it's what Amelia said earlier about the point
of terrorism, because this was terrorism, this is walk Obviously
the target of this was a Jewish celebration. But as
we spoke about at the beginning, there are thousands of
people on that beach. It does affect every Australian because
our very sense of safety was struck at by these people,
(26:49):
these terrorists, and that's the point that they're trying to make.
I want to ask you, though, Miya, because when we're
going to get in a minute to how people can help.
But one thing that people keep saying is wrap your
arms around your Jewish friends and reach out. Is that
(27:09):
what you want people to do? And what does that
look like? And does it feel in any way a
little empty?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
No, it really doesn't.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
And again I can only speak for myself, but one
of the things that has touched me the most has
been people reaching out, like to just say I'm thinking
of you. Just send an emoji, just like if you
know someone who is Jewish, just check on them because
they're devastated and they're scared. And it means a lot
(27:37):
because it can feel very very lonely, you know, it
can feel like, yeah, it can just feel very lonely.
And it's felt like that the last few years. And
you know, without wanting to be self pitying or anything,
it's some of the best conversations I have about this
(27:59):
kind of thing is with my Muslim friends and my
Christian friends and my Catholic friends, people who are of
deep faith, and they are always the first person to
reach out.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
They always always.
Speaker 6 (28:11):
And I think that the in some ways.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
This made me think of christ Church, and that the
innocence of being in a place of worship and an
attack based on faith in that in that moment, which
was just so horrific, I think that speaks to we
are a country founded on multiculturalism and on safety and understandings.
(28:43):
That's why people Australia.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
You know, my parents and my father as families are
immigrants from South Africa, and they left because of as
a political protest against apartheid in the sixties. Because and
they chose Australia because it was a land of peace
and tolerance and multiculturalism and respect for people who don't
(29:06):
share your background or.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Your faith and on. And that's what's so deeply shocking
about this right.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
On that I think watching the response unfold on social
media and watching what is inevitably and frustratingly and anti
immigration backlash that will then move into Islamophobia and suggest
that why were they in our cut like you saw
that come so immediately, and you think that is along
(29:36):
the same continuum. No one wants to as the hate,
but as the hate that just led to this massacre.
Speaker 7 (29:43):
Well that's exactly what terrorists want as well. And to
your earlier question me, I think it's a really interesting one,
and you made me pause and think about why it
shook me so deeply, And I think it's because these
acts of terrorism are designed to make us doubt ourselves
and to make us doubt that our country can hold together.
(30:05):
So if you think about nine eleven, that was sort
of taking aim at the very financial heart of a
city that basically runs on business and finance. And that's
why that was such an effective act. The symbolism of
it and this giant building in a city that is
known for its skyscrapers, or the London Tube bombings, that
(30:27):
is a city that runs on the tube.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That's their arteries of that city.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
And then of course the Bali bombing was striking an
island which really depends and relies on tourism and the
idea of people coming there to have a good time
and to sustain the Balinese economy. This is how terrorism works,
and so in choosing a beach, you are really also
(30:56):
trying to get at the very foundations of this society,
which and what we say is at the beach, everyone
is equal.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
And today is the eleventh anniversary of the Lin Cafe
siege and the two people that lost their lives so
tragically in.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
That terrorist attack.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
And it's only what two years, less than two years
since Bondai junction and I think Westfield attack, Yeah, the
Westfield attack, which was it was not terrorists, that was
not terrorism, that was a loan attacker. But what that
did to sow the seeds of discomfort within a community
(31:39):
that you could just be going along doing your shopping
with your family, but for the grace of God, which
is of this this feels like that all over again.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
We're going to be back in a moment to talk
about how you can help and the people who did
help on the day. The entire world is talking about
Ahmed al Hmed today. He is the white T shirt guy,
(32:11):
the man who wrestled the gun from the hands of
one of the terrorists right as he was aiming it
at innocent families running to hide from his bullets. Al
Ahmed is in hospital today. After he took that gun,
he pointed it at the shooter, but he didn't pull
the trigger. He put the gun down, he put his
hands up, and he was under fire from the second
shooter on the bridge, and he took a bullet in
(32:32):
the shoulder as the second shooter was shooting from the bridge. Today,
we've learned a little bit more about Hmed because his cousin,
who was with him last night, has spoken outside hospital,
and we found out a few more things about him
we did.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
We know that he came from Syria more than a
decade ago, and he's a father to two little girls.
And there was this really moving detail which I just
think illustrates the connection between so many communities in US.
(33:07):
But he was walking through the festival and they offered
him food and he was sort of on his way
to get a coffee, but only moments later that community
was being horrifically shot at.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
HMED's cousin says that that was about ten minutes before
they found themselves caught up in all this, and he
says that Ahmed said, just before he went into tackle
the gunment, he told his cousin, I'm going to die.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
He said, I want my family to know that I
went down trying to save lives.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
It's incredibly moving, and you know, the world is, as
I've said, the world is calling him a hero, and
I think this probably fewer times that that word is
more apt. Yeah, his actions and the fact that, as
you said before, Jesse, that it was caught on films
so clearly have absolutely stunned the world. There are articles
(34:00):
about that man in British newspapers all over American side.
Speaker 7 (34:04):
And look, even Donald Trump mentioned him, and he's really
I think the whole world's talking about him today.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean, what a hero it was.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
So you know, they always say when you're feeling absolutely despair,
look for the helpers and you need to have your
spirits lifted. Look to the people who run towards the danger.
And armad al Ahmed there's no one who could. He
had no experience with guns. He just was a passer by.
He wasn't there for the Hunuker celebrations. He just was
(34:34):
at the beach.
Speaker 7 (34:34):
People are saying it's the most extraordinary footage they've ever seen.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Yeah, and I heard ABC News were speculating that he
must have been a plane clothed.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
Police officer. They kept saying, I thought, for.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Someone trained in the army, he didn't seem like I
had never picked up a gun before. But I was
so moved by the way he put the gun down
because he was being shot at, and the footage of
after he disarmed that man who's sort of cow as
if to say, don't shoot me.
Speaker 5 (35:09):
But the fact that the average Australian would not even
know what way to hold a gun, and that was
the thing. He didn't know what to do with it
because he had probably never had a gun in his
hands before.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm sure we'll hear, well, we will hear his story.
I'm sure when he gets out of hospital. His family
been speaking to the media a little bit today and
saying that they're just obviously hoping for a quick recovery
for him. The thing is is that his act of
bravery it kind of shone a light on all across
that beach in that moment, all the little acts of
bravery that were happening. There were people who were bystandards.
(35:41):
There were surf life savers sprinting for first aid kits,
there were surfers carrying people on their boards as stretchers.
And then the paramedics come and they are running into
a live fire situation and yes it's their job, but
my god, and they are They said that cops were
jumping into the ambulances and driving them to hospitals with
the the paramedics could keep working in the back because
(36:02):
it was all hands on deck. Unprecedented. We've said that
a lot today is that Australia is supposed to be
safe and this isn't supposed to happen here. And generally speaking,
it doesn't happen here, you know. So it's not like
we've got forces of people who are dealing with this
every day. And the level of bravery from Ahmed, from
the other people on the beach, the parents who are
(36:23):
standing in front of their kids, the husband who died
protecting his wife from gunfire, the shopkeepers who let people
run in and hide in their back I mean this.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
It has become like a cliche.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
To say look for the helpers, look for the light,
as we were saying, But it matters. I think it
really matters because you can you can feel so dark and.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
So and that's what is. It's about the triumph of
light over darkness. It's about that good will triumph over evil.
Speaker 7 (36:53):
In that same video, I was struck by two other helpers.
There was a man who threw an object, yeah, a
powering terrorist, and I just her axposed ere and then
I was very moved by this as armored el armored
(37:13):
gingerly put the gun by a tree. Another person ran up,
I think, just to be by his side because they
could see that he was in this extraordinary situation. And
the two people, I think it was another man, the
two men hid together behind a tree.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
And what's remarkable is that that would have been all
on instinct, right, And you see people who were at
the beach will have had a range of different responses
to what happened, whether it was that they froze or
they ran, or they fought. And so to see that
man working on instinct, that's like the majority of people
(37:56):
are good and they and they want to help. And
we're seeing that today with Lifeblood, who has said they've
said one thing you can do is donate blood that
came directly from the premiere and for some people who
need blood, they might need one hundred donations, right.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
And they are accused as a Red Blood bank across
the road from our office, and they're accused everywhere. There
are mobile blood banks being set up because it's going
into the holiday season, which already is a really tough
time of.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
High need for the blood bank.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Also the doctors and the nurses that were called into
hospitals yesterday, all the first responders who ran towards the danger, and.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Many who you know within I know through the community,
many whom are Jewish and are then dealing with this
personal trauma and then having to act and being called on.
There were messages going around that New South Wales health
workers were kind of going to just as you say,
(39:03):
all hands on deck, but to see the lines around
the corner and lifeblood to say, okay, we're being inundated,
try and book in. It's just such a reminder that
if you have any time off over this period, that
it is moments like this that there needs to be
supply because they are sending it across states.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And that all time to do.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
It's such a practical good thing to do, especially if
you have own negative blood.
Speaker 6 (39:29):
So that's something that people can do today.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
They were saying that even if you can't get in today,
you can keep going.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It was all booked out today.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I jumped on last night and I couldn't get in
until sort of Wednesday or Thursday this week.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
The local member for went with a leg responder also
encourages people to donate to local mental health charities, particularly
for use to deal with some of the trauma of
the community, obviously the community of people who were at
the Hannock event, but also the trauma of the community
of people who are at the beach that day and
who have witnessed.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
All of this.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
And the Bondai community in general.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Said to me or I've got my whole you know,
hundreds of Catholics messaging sending love to the Jewish side
of the family and how they would really like to
just all stand outside the synagogues this week and just
make sure that you know, like and how do you
ensure that there's there's safety.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, that means a lot, you know, that means a lot.
And also just be careful of words. Words. You know,
words are not violence, but they can lead to violence.
And there's been a lot of very inflammatory language about
Jewish people over the last few years, particularly on social media, and.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Just the result those things can sometimes lead to horrifying actions,
as we saw yesterday.
Speaker 6 (41:11):
Out Louders.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Obviously, we're recording this at lunchtime on Monday, and as
we're talking details are coming out, so we haven't been
sharing names of the victims because we know there is
much more to come heartbreakingly, but as we're recording this,
the New South Wales Authority say that fifteen people have
been killed, plus one of the gunmen. The dead include
(41:35):
a ten year old girl. The two gunmen are a
father and son. Forty two people were taken into hospital,
including two police officers who remain in a critical condition.
Those are the facts as we record this now. But
what's behind those facts, of course, is so much pain
and fear and heartbreak. And I just want all of
(41:55):
the out louders to know that from all of us,
we're sending everybody affected an enormous amount of love and
if this day is particularly heavy for you, please.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Know that help is available.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
You can call life Line on thirteen eleven fourteen and
we're going to be back in your ears with something
a little bit more like usual programming tomorrow and for
the rest of the week.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Goodbye, out loud As, We love you.
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