All The Things We Didn’t Need To Know About The Sex Scandal Of The Year

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to I'm on the Mere podcast. Friends.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
It was a great week this week because I finally
got my hands on the jam you did?

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Can you please tell me out loud as how you
got your hands on it? Because it was not a
pr package from Megan Duchess of No.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Funnily enough, we're not on Meghan's list.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
No, maybe we talk about her a little too much.

Speaker 5 (00:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
The person who sent me the jam, Megan's Jam, in
case you're wondering, is an amazing out louder called Erica,
and she lives in Maine, in America. The thing is
is Meg's does not at this point ship internationally, which
seems selfish. Yeah rude, Yeah, very rude, because I want
the rose one of the things. Anyway, Erica packaged a
subsom Jam America and sent it over and Jesse has

(00:54):
I did subject Jesse to a taste test. I came
to find you at your desk game you've disappeared.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
I left her, but I.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
Will be Monday. A long way.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm out of here, but I will chase you down.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Because all the out louders wanted to know when I
post about it is what's it like? What's it like,
what's it like? There are two really important things you
need to know about Jam. It's not jam, I deserve.
It's not even preserve, it's spread Raspberry different.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
She's got something wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, the story goes that she says the reason it
can't be called jam is because it is a bit
lower and sugar than normal jam. It's pretty sweet to me,
because jam needs a very high sugar content to be
able to call itself jam apparently, so that's why she
calls it spread. But also it's why it's running. You
know a lot of people said when I put it
on the toast, They're like, it's running. It's not as

(01:46):
jammy as jam, which is sticky. Anyway, I'm into it.

Speaker 5 (01:51):
You're more of a jam connoissor.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I am Brent Is, the award winning scone maker of
the South Coast.

Speaker 5 (01:58):
Remember, so what would you give it out a tent?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Look, I haven't tried the Raspberry yet because I'm taking
it home. I'm like, I can't open it until I
get it's a bit selfish closer center.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
To all of us. Erica knew that it was important
to me.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
I'll report back on the Raspberry when I've spread it
on but how about the strawberry.

Speaker 5 (02:14):
I thought it was, But what would you give it
out of ten? Oh? Okay?

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Eight? Oh okay, that's pretty hard.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
The runniness marks it down a tiny bit. The other
thing that Erica sent us that was very important with
the flower.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
Sprinkles, which are tasteless, and.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
We are now going to put those on everything.

Speaker 5 (02:28):
They're fun, but they got stuck in your tasted and
they did.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I'm going to come up behind you when you're having
your tye salad or your chicken sandwich and I'm just
going to do a little light Mega's sprinkle, Sprinkle.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
But look, it's been a very happy week for me.
You do seem really happy.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
It's what women are actually talking about on Friday, the
twenty eighth of November, and holy.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Shit, in the twenty eighth of November. I'm Holly Wayne, right, I'm.

Speaker 5 (02:54):
M Burnham, I'm Jesse Stevens.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
And what's on our agenda for today? Women have never
been hornier? No context, that's all.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
I speaking of the gossip story of the year and
the sex term that I wish I did not know
the me I learned it this morning, I said the
term out loud, yeah, and I went quiet, and I
was like, why is it probing weird about this term?

Speaker 2 (03:13):
And then I googled it went w So in case
you're worried that this show is going to be very
unsafe for work, only little bits, a little bit, only
little bits.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
It is like the scandal of the year.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, we also have a fair few recos to get
through today. I put in so much work into my record,
more than the entire show. So I'm going to need
everyone to have an open mind about this.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Open minds.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
But first, but first, Wicked for good? Who is currently
in theaters? Have either of you seen it?

Speaker 5 (03:40):
I haven't, but I actually will probably go. I didn't mind.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
The first one three hours of my life, isn't it?

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Like? Is it really shorter than the first one? By
thirty minute?

Speaker 1 (03:50):
How long is that? Four hours? Like five in a bit?

Speaker 5 (03:55):
Have you seen it?

Speaker 4 (03:55):
I have seen it. I went to the Sydney premier.
Was very very good. It was kind of just like
an extension of the first movie, which is kind of
what they were going to They filmed it back to back.
It's like the second half of the musical basically.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Okay, great.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I think I'm going to enjoy that. I think I
will probably go this weekend.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
It's really nice. It's basically about I mean, if you
don't know Wicked, yes you do. It's like the Wizard
of Us spin off.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, this is this is my don't mean to be
a grinch because if you love it, you love it.
But like, I found the first movie too long because
I'm like, plotline.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
Have you watched the musical good Witch goes Bad?

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (04:28):
But like sure, you know what I mean, does she
go bad?

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Okay, so you're thinking, okay, so you're like a Wizard
of Us purists, like people who love Wicked go oh,
the Wizard of Us was propaganda. Yeah, and this is
the true story.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
So it's about Alphaba, who's like the Wicked Witch, and
her friendship with Glinda, who's the Good Witch. Cynthia Rivo
are in a grande. I do enjoy their dynamic, dynamic.
They're very very close friends.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
But me and Jesse I like to hold her nails
a lot. They're very very cute together.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
So NPR decided to ask people what they thought about
the Wicked movies, and they decided to ask people who's
my opinion is the only opinion I really care about.
Which are other witches? Right? They interviewed witches no like
other I don't know. Maybe some of them could be
on Etsy to make some money. I also had to
look this up because I thought every time I refer

(05:20):
to them as witches, I felt like it was a
bit of a slur. But you're allowed to call You're
allowed to call witches witches.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
And NPR did say they're self described witches.

Speaker 5 (05:28):
Yes, yeah, I was. They identify They're.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Not walking down the street going you look like a witch?

Speaker 4 (05:33):
Tell me what you think.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
It wasn't like that.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
So they interviewed one witch. Her name is Mama Rainbow
Sounds Suit and she refers to herself as an eclectic
witch and when she was asked about Wicked, she said,
I love how they humanize Alphabet and Glinda to show
that witches are just regular people.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Heyo, is anything regular about ARIANA grand.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Question?

Speaker 4 (05:57):
Anyway? Well, I mean they like being friends my friends.
Is quite a human that's quality. They also interviewed a
witch named Jujubay who is a whodoo practitioner initiated Ocean
priestess and what did she think Okay, so she said
she loves Wicked, but she does have some concerns. She
says she doesn't like how Wicked has taken the secret
art and practices of witchcraft and is moving it to mainstream.

(06:20):
She said she hates that Wicked has contributed to what
she calls over commercialization and over consumption of witchcraft.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
No one likes it when everyone starts liking their thing.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, you're just.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Like I was say, first, I like their old stuff.
Don't you go jumping on the bandwagon.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's that's that ping.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
I liked that comment too because it then explicitly the
article explicitly linked to her YouTube channel, which I then
followed to her website where you two can get a
shamanic counseling session for one hundred and fifty dollars an hour.
And I was like, don't you hate the over consumption
of witchhood?

Speaker 5 (06:53):
Don't you hate it? We're all profiting.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
I think they want us to stay in our lane
like they want us to. We don't feel offended by it.
Yeah no, but we can't be witches. They just want
us to like respect their craft aspect witches.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
It's what about crystals and candles and all that stuff.
What about saging things? Am I getting too witchy? Am
I treading on anyone's toes?

Speaker 5 (07:11):
It's cultural appropriation.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
I don't think you should tell them you're doing that.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
No, private, Look, I'm here today in the service of gossip. Hurrah. Right, Finally,
Pair is a story She's admitted it unfolding in the US.
It involves a journalist named Olivia Nuzzi, her former fiance
Ryan Lizard.

Speaker 5 (07:32):
There's a lot of z's in this story. Robert F.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Kennedy Junior, the US Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
It's a different category, different category.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
It involves New York magazine, it involves sub stack, and
it involves a sex term I've been throwing around all
morning and then I googled.

Speaker 5 (07:49):
And got a ride shock. I'm still not sure if.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
I'm legally I allowed to say it on this podcast,
but I'm going to and if they have to cut
it out, they have to cut it out.

Speaker 5 (07:57):
To be clear, none of us are here for the politics. No, No,
we don't want to know about politics.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
I mean, the ethics are questionable. Yeah, I'm sure you're
going to get yea to that, but like, yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
We want to politics because then you've got the wrong
host on that podcast.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
I need to call up a Melia.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Can we all agree that we're going to hold hands
and talk about the sex gossip?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (08:14):
All, Okay, that's what I'm here for.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
So. Olivianzi is thirty two and she has worked for
a bunch of outlets. She's like one of those journalists
who was like a protege and everyone was like, she's
one of the most influential young journalists in the US, right,
and she worked for lots of very impressive publications.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I read a profile she did of Trump once where
it starts with a very florid description of his ear,
you know, a beautiful pink rose blah blah blah. She's
like a very literary kind.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Of journalist exactly, and she kind of rose to fame.
Twenty sixteen, she's on the presidential trail and she, you know,
interviews Trump, big deal.

Speaker 5 (08:51):
In twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Two, she meets a man named Ryan Lizza, and Ryan
Lizza is also like a young, very successful journalist who's
worked in a lot of newsrooms. Right play romance, yes,
and they're like a real power couple. They get this book.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Looking particularly Olivia, she's really like stereotypically good looking, blonde, skinny, white, Like.

Speaker 5 (09:13):
They're just this couple everyone's kind of obsessed with.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
So what I'm hearing is I need to find a
journalist husband.

Speaker 5 (09:19):
It's like if you found so.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
In twenty twenty three, Nuzzi writes a profile on RFK Jr. Who,
at that point is a potential presidential candidate.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Remember he had the worm.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
In his brain or some shit, Oh that was him.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, he was running independently before he decided to jump
to Trump's side. And he's always been controversial. He has
a very gravelly voice that I find very distracting, even
though I know that it's not fair. He famously shot
a bear or something and buried in Central Park. He's
he's out there, and is he the grandson. He's the
nephew of JFK. But he's part of the whole Kennedy klan,

(09:59):
who traditionally a Democratic leaning So he's a bit of
a black sheep for lots of reasons. And now, of
course he's the Secretary of Health and telling everybody not
to get vaccinated, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
But this was before that, and all the other candidates
are like, we don't know him.

Speaker 5 (10:10):
Many Moore they had taken as gold exactly. They have
disowned him.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Well, you might vaguely remember this that a year ago
it was reported that Nuzzy had a personal relationship with RFK,
So while she was writing this profile, it seems that
she fell for him. She says it didn't kind of
start until afterwards. But apparently RFK, who's thirty nine years

(10:34):
older than Nuzzy he's seventy one now, bragged to friends
about nude photos she had sent him, and she ended
up confirming that the relationship was personal slash digital, but
it never became physical. I thought digital meant fingery, but
digital means fine.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Not in this instance. Not in this instance.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yes, I kept reading personal slash digital and I.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Was like, okay, that's very personal.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
I just kept saying, like an age digital fall into personal.

Speaker 5 (11:04):
Yeah, but what it means is texting.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Okay, a digital again, like a situation ship Yeah, exactly
right now. RFK was married too, to Cheryl Hines, who
I know from Kurby Your Enthusiasm, which confuses me.

Speaker 5 (11:16):
So both of them were having affairs.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
She's with Ryan Lizza, r is with Sary Heights. Anyway,
why do we care now, why's Jesse talking about it today? Well,
it was announced this month that our good friend Olivia Nuzzy,
she knows what the people want. She's releasing a book
all about it. And she's released this excerpt, published this
excerpt in Vanity Fair, where she says RFK wanted to

(11:38):
impregnate her. He said things like he'd take a bullet
for her. Then goes into politics. But we all agreed,
we're not talking about politics. We don't care.

Speaker 5 (11:47):
But then Ryan Liza, the ex fiance, entered the chatel.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
Because they broke up.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Obviously when they all came out last year, she lost
her job, they broke up. There was a whole lot
of scandal around that.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, and now Ryan Liza's gone, you know what the
world needs my perspective. So he publishes this sub stack
called Part one How I found out Oh click click,
Oh my god, Jesse, he is in bed going Christmas
is coming up?

Speaker 5 (12:15):
Rat So I start reading this substack.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
Great headline, by the way.

Speaker 5 (12:18):
Such a good headline.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
And he starts writing about his relationship with Nuzzy, how
they're writing this book together. Then one day he discovers
a note written by a politician and he goes Oh shit,
she's been having an affair. This book deal is going
to fall apart. What am I going to do? This
is how the essay ends. I was sure our relationship
was over, and certainly our book project was dead. She'd
crossed a journalistic red line. How could we write a

(12:41):
book about the presidential campaign if Olivia had a sexual
relationship with one of the candidates. I called my agent.
We have a big problem, I said, Olivia is sleeping
with Mark Sandford. So he is alleging, We have no
confirmation at this point. This is an allegation by Ryan
Lizza that RFK Junior allegedly was not the first politician

(13:02):
that she had had an affair with. He is saying
that she also had an fair with Mark Sandford. And
I'm like, mate, she has a type.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
She has a type and powerful.

Speaker 5 (13:14):
The type is so next installment is behind a paywall,
but don't worry.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
I read it.

Speaker 5 (13:20):
Lizap published on his substack.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
Parts of what he says is a very explicit poem
from RFK Junior to nuz So he's done and writing.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
Poetry, right, Okay, such an egg?

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Okay, M you're dating someone and they send you this poem.
I want you to react.

Speaker 4 (13:36):
Okay, I've already blocked up. I haven't read it.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
Okay, your open mouth awaiting my harvest. I've only just started. No,
I mean to squeeze your cheek.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean to flow through you. I mean to subdue
and tame you full stop, my love.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Something about a canyon, something about rushing canyon.

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Why am I doing.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
All the work as well?

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Like this is meant to be a poem for me.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
He also refers according to Ryan Liza, he says that
RFK refers to a sexual act called felching. I was
pitching it to be in the title of today's episode,
and I was told absolutely not. Producer Ruth is going
to have a conniption, and I respect her decision. And

(14:29):
in case you're with children, parents, you're out in public,
just google it on your.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Time or don't clear history.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, exactly right, so that we all know, we're all
just across what that word means.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
As consenting adults can do what they want to do,
what you like.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
Liza said that Nazi developed a near obsession with RFK. Look,
there is more to come. Nazzy's book coming out next week, right,
so we're going to get all of the gossip.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I don't think we are because the reason I know
about this really because I haven't been as obsessed as
you have, Jesse. But obviously I'm like peripherally obsessed. Is
I read the extract of her book, did you in
Vanity Fair? Well?

Speaker 3 (15:10):
I had to stop because it was very literary, and
I was like, there's sextytail.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
So dense and so full of metaphor, and so like,
I don't think we're going to get anything.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
It was very like bamboo. Then the fire came and
I'm like, is this about the La Fires?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Or is this so America is completely obsessed with this
story and it's being written about all over the world,
and there's lots of layers to it. Right, So I
think everybody loves a woman cheating. I mean, as they
don't love it, they love to pile on. It's like
very exciting when women cheat. Everybody loves the trope of
a woman who sleeps her way to the top.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Because she had all these connections in the Republican Party
and was writing all these great profiles and now of
course everybody.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Else because she was sleeping with everybody.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
So some female journalists have written angry columns about how
she's betrayed us all, you know, made us all look awful.
How can we ever be expected to be taken seriously
when she's.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Exchanging like this with Arafkaane Junior.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
I think, yeah, I definitely a text. I got that.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Then obviously the Ryan Liza of it all, which is
like the cook old man, which is cookold is a
word that only applies to men, and it's about men
who've been cheated on, which is always a particular form
of like shame, shame and pe.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
So there he is typing angrily to the boy.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
And then and then and it turns out that she
didn't just cheat on him once, but more than once,
and so he's spreading all his stuff literally and a
lot of people are saying, mate, this makes you look.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
Pretty bad too.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
And so it's like, I think this is the big
problem with dating, living with cheating on riders, Right, You've
got a whole lot of who.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Were just like I want the scoop. I want to
tell the story because then R FK.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Junior's wife, Cheryl, she's written a memoir, a memoir to God,
and I've read an extract of that which also suggests
she isn't really going to go there. She's just said
after it all hit, they went away to Italy. And
I think the other reason why it's really interesting is
it throws up this question that if we believe RFK Junior,
who says I met Olivia once and then she became

(17:14):
obsessed with me and texted me all the time, Like
we don't believe you.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Well, Lisa says she became obsessed with him, even he
the ex fiance, says yes, she developed an obsession with a.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Which I'm sure is true.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
But what Nuzzi seems to be saying is that obsession
was mutual, so he was also messaging her all the time,
I love you, I love you, blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
Also, like, how guys the obsession, it's like I just
texted you back.

Speaker 5 (17:37):
You know, so obsessed with me.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
But I think the thing is there is that everybody's
fascinated with Well, is it cheating if they didn't really
do anything, if they weren't really felting in person, and
like so then they talked about well, yeah, both of
them haven't really confirmed or denied that this relationship did
ever get actually physical, but it certainly seems that most
of it is on her was personal slash digital.

Speaker 5 (18:04):
But Lisa says that seems improbable. He thinks that something
happened physically.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
It's alleged though, that the Sanford affair was in real
life in hotel rooms. So it's like, I think it
ticks a lot of boxes for us in terms of
what we're obsessed with, and also just the idea of
these very high profiles, successful people playing with.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Fire like this because you know you're going to get
caught there.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Involves like one of my mates, Kara Swisher, who I
listened to on the Pivot podcast.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
She was working with Nuzzy at the New York magazine and.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
They were mates, but she was the one who dobbed
her into the bosses because Kara said, this is like
so unprofessional. She was like, you're betraying the audience. So
she went and told the bosses about Nuzzy and Rfk's
text affair, and then Nuzzy got fired.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Because the thing is too like RFK Jr. Is a
depending on where you sit politically, can be seen as
a very dangerous figure who is cutting health access for
people vaccines. He's very anti vax He's doing some really
controversial things. If you've got his number, Olivia, there are
a few other so that he can be.

Speaker 4 (19:09):
Texting him about to chill out a little.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, and so you think, if these are the journalists
covering the politicians, what hope do you have? This is
what I'm interested em as someone who is coming fresh
to this story. How do you feel about Ryan Liza
deciding right now as my substack moment? Like, do you
think he gets a say? Because, in his defense, his

(19:33):
story has been written for him by all of these people,
and he has been shamed and embarrassed and everything. He
probably knows more of the truth of this story than most.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
Do you think he gets a right of reply?

Speaker 4 (19:48):
I think he gets a right of reply. However, I
don't think anyone really cares about his response to it. Yeah,
his part of the story that you just told was
just I was just like, oh, I feel so bad
for him, But I also don't really care like what
his interpretation of it.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
So we don't care about his emotions. But any details welcome.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
Any detail. So when like his substack, like, I would
read that whole thing absolutely because like I just want
to know about the whole situation. Yes, whether that's from
your point of view or a point of view exactly,
but I don't. I hope it feels good about doing it,
then why not for it? But also like his job.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Just to add a little muckiness to him, he was
dismissed from his job before all this in twenty seventeen
for sexual misconduct, which he always says is nothing like.
It was the height of the you know, the sort
of me tooonness of it all, and nobody ever really
explained what he'd done wrong. But so there's a little
cloud over him. So like an interpretation of this is that,
you know, he's a slightly problematic dude. He was in

(20:48):
this very high profile relationship with this beautiful, very ambitious
young woman who seemed to have a magical ability to
get powerful men to tell us stories, and then it
turns out that she was either sleeping or just having
lots of hot digital I'm not going to say some
of the words with them. And like he's humiliated, that's

(21:09):
the take, right, Yeah, as I said, the cook old,
he's humiliated, So he's like right, And also her book's
going to come out, presumably it's going to sell a lot.
She's just been hired as Vanity Fairs West Coast correspondent.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
They've done this whole big profile where they describers.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Like Lana del Rey, like driving her white convertible around
the lah.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
She's turned us into a girl boss moment.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
She has turned this into a massive girl Boss moment.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Out loud As.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
In a moment and somehow not unrelated into that boyfriends
and why women are so very horny right now?

Speaker 4 (21:40):
How loud As, we have a listener dilemma that we
need your collective wisdom to help us and our partners
UI solve it. So here is our problem from our listener.
For the past twenty eight years, Christmas has been a
predictable ritual. My parents' host, my siblings and I arrive
with our partners and kids, and the day is a
whirl of noise, food, and familiar chaos. But this year

(22:02):
everything is different. My parents finalize their divorce in July.
Now instead of one home, there are two. We're not
even in December yet, and my mom has already told
me she can't bear the idea of waking up alone
on Christmas morning. My dad, who moved into a small
place across town, texted me last week saying he's planning
to make a prime rare dinner and hopes I'll be there.

(22:25):
Like always, They both assume I'll choose them. My sister
and her family are spending the day with Mum, and
my brother is fleeing to his in laws interstate. But
I'm the one who lives closest, and I have the
youngest kids, and somehow I become the emotional buffer of
the family. Mom has cried on the phone twice already.
My dad keeps telling me he understands if I can't come,

(22:46):
but the sadness in his voice makes it clear that
he doesn't really understand. My partner says that we should
make our own plans this year and step out of
the tugger wall. It sounds appealing, but I would also
feel so guilty. My kids just want Christmas the way
it used to be, and I know that's not happening.
No matter what I choose to do, someone will be hurt.
So the question is what do you do next? Oh?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
I have massive, big feels for our listener because it's
interesting that we always talk about how difficult divorce Christmas
is for kids, but our listener is an adult with
her own kids, and it's really difficult for her too.
I think, go on, Jesse, what do you think I was.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
Going to say?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
I don't think you can opt out of a tug
of war this year. I reckon, it's too early.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
I think this is out of all years I need.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, if this were me, I would have my mum
stay over the night before, even if she sleeps on
the couch or something, just so that she wakes up
on Christmas. This is something with so many of my
friends with single mums. They go on Christmas. I don't
want her to wake up on her own, so she
either sleeps over or you go over there early, just
so that you get that morning that's really special. And

(23:54):
then I think that you make time to go and
see your dad in the evening, like it is going
to be a bit jumping all over the place. And
I know what she's saying about wanting the kids to
have the perfect day, but I think kids also get
to see that sometimes Christmas looks a bit different.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
And yeah, I agree, I think this year you do
have to probably split it in two. I understand it's
going to be real punished because little kids in a
little apartment with your dad having a rib dinner Like
that's hard, you know what I mean? Like taking little
Christmas excited kids to a place they're not familiar with.
It's just one present, Yeah, they do, And so I
would make sure there were presents for them there so

(24:29):
that they're excited about that. And look, if it isn't perfect,
then you learn and next year it's something different. One
thing you know as you get older is Christmases come
around quicker and quicker, and if you're lucky, you.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Get lots of goes at it.

Speaker 5 (24:39):
What do you reckon?

Speaker 4 (24:40):
D I had the same as you like, morning with
Mum because she wants the morning, late afternoon, evening with
Dad because he's made primary and you can't skip that.
I remember when I was younger, we had a lot
because we're Catholic, so we have our family was a
family that drove to every other family just to see them,
and everyone else sta'd kind of stay put. So we'd
have breakfast at this house, lunch at this house, tea

(25:01):
at this house, dinner at this house. And all I
wanted was just present. So I was kind of just like,
it's fine.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
As long as and you give me something, I'll be happy.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Yeah, that's fine. And then as I got older, obviously,
I was like, I just really want to just stay
at home. Yeah, dad, but I feel like when you're
a kid, you kind of just get around it.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (25:18):
If there's chocolate gifts, yeah easy, I know.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
But it's going to be an emotional Christmas.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, So big, big love to you and out loud
as what would you do next? Share your thoughts in
the Mama Mia out loud Facebook group and if you
have a dilemma, send it to us at out loud
at mamamea dot com dot au.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
We would love to help you.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
So I feel like Olivia Nuzzi has set the table
for this next conversation right last week, friends, did you
see the Vanity Fair cover with all the hot men
on it?

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Oh? Did I see it? This is how I woke
up in the morning, so as I say, and then
I looked at my phone and I went back to sleep,
and I went, wait a minute, and then I immediately
read every single profile.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Because it was Vanity Fairs, Hollywood issued. They do it
once a year. They've done it since nineteen ninety five.
It's a big deal. It's like time via they handpick
who the big.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
Stars in Hollywood are They usually do the oscar like
people who are.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Going to be in the Oscars, people who are hot
up and comers. I remember I bought the first one
ever in ninety ninety five. I make Gwinnifers on it.
Everyone was like, who's that?

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Just you wait, just you wait the thing she's going
to do.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Sometimes I do a single sex one, and this year
there's it's called Let's Hear It for the boys.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Our new class of leading men.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Austin Butler, Paul Muscal Michael b Jordan Big Yes, Glenn
pa I love him asap?

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Rocky is he in movies now?

Speaker 4 (26:44):
So very good looking?

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Jeremy Allen White, Lake Stanfield, Rizamed Jonathan Bailey, Yes, and
EM's boyfriend Callum.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
That's the one who loves Julie.

Speaker 5 (26:56):
Wasn't my crush?

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Was there too?

Speaker 5 (26:59):
Harry Dickinson? Was he there?

Speaker 4 (27:00):
Harris Dickinson?

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Is there? Is Andrew gel He's a little bit older
than those guys. I think you just managed to squeeze
into the young thing. I do love him anyway. This
is the thing they do every year, but this year's
crop of young men or hot men seemed exceptionally hot
and the response was kind of hysterical, like the obsessive

(27:25):
memes every way you looked at because it wasn't that
all of the shots were like shirtless and stuff. There
was a bit of romping in the ocean going on
and running around on a beach in suits.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
Wearing neon colored pants. Yes, but it.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Was seen as being intensely sexy. And this came obviously
just a few weeks after People's Sexiest Man Alive, which
is Jonathan Bailey, and the almost hysterical response to that.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
We didn't even talk about it on the show because
our response was tick correct, Yes, exactly, absolutely, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 5 (27:54):
And of course Jonathan Bailey is a gay man, right.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yep, he's a gay man.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
And it feels to me like there is a level
of hysteria and like rip your clothes off and this
is my dream and all those things that is louder
than it's been from the women's and I mean it's
nothing new, I guess, you know, We've always had pop
star heart throbs, and we've had Brad Pitt and Theilmer

(28:18):
and Luise, and we've had K pop guys who drive
all the young girls crazy and stuff.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
Not like this.

Speaker 5 (28:23):
We're very humpy.

Speaker 4 (28:24):
We are.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm thinking about like Robert Irwin on Dancing with the
Stars and how those videos go around, and I feel
like it's kind of mainstreaming openly lusting about internet boyfriends.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Am I right that the volume has gone up about this?

Speaker 4 (28:40):
One hundred percent?

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Right?

Speaker 4 (28:41):
Can I read aud some comments I've seen? Please on this?
Sho okay?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Raw?

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Next question? Can you just reject me so I can
move on? And flash us? Who said that?

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Flash us?

Speaker 3 (28:56):
I think that also you put this into like the
cultural context of smart and how they're the.

Speaker 5 (29:02):
Books that are selling.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Right, we have our book club coming up where we
talk all about or Fours by Miranda July, which is
a sexy midlifebook.

Speaker 5 (29:11):
It is the sex toy Boom.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
It is Perry slash menopausal women going give me some testosterone.
I still have a sex drive. I'm still a sexual
being all that kind of stuff. And there's this female
sort of thirstiness that we're becoming more and more comfortable with.
And what I can't work out is if women have
always been like this but now it's allowed, or if

(29:35):
our sexual desire is kind of culturally constructed and so
we're all kind of going, oh, maybe our desires are
starting to change. And also it used to be the
kind of marvel hunk was the vision of what women wanted.
But now it's like they're listening and it's like that
big body builder type is in everyone's time. Some of us,

(29:56):
like a Paul mescal will tear down his cheek.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
I think it's completely directed to the men, and I
think this has come from the idea that men don't
get implemented enough, and women see that and they're like, Okay,
we'll compliment you, but only if you do the right thing.
Because I remember we talked about an Anne Helen Peterson
substacle while ago on the men who like women, Yes,
every man in this issue like women.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Because I don't know, problematic brain, problematic guy cover.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
They don't treat you well, and I'm into that, and
we're loudly thirsting over them to tell other men, like,
this is exactly what we want.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
It's not just about being hot. You have to have
everything else.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
So when you're saying that this is directed at men,
you mean like, literally, we are validating and pedestaling these
guys for the benefit of all the average dudes that
you like swiping on apps kind of thing, going.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
This is it?

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (30:49):
But the problem with that, right, because I love that
interpretation now and I reckon you're right, is like women
have always been objectified like this. You know, think about
how many times you see a woman on the cover
of a magazine and she's not wearing any clothes, a
gaggle of women not wearing any clothes, the Sydney Swing
Eve or whatever.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
And we don't like that. We don't like that.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
We've discussed a lot the messages out there that that
kind of objectification is a bit ick.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
We don't really want to hear guys like going, ooh,
she's so hot, Like, we don't really like that.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
And it's interesting because one of the best selling books
in the world right now is Scott Galloway's book about Notes.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
On Being a Man.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
You know, there's problems with that whatever, but one of
his arguments in that book is that we've demonized male horniness.
We've made it something dangerous into something to be suppressed,
and he's saying we shouldn't always do that because it's
an engine, Like, it's a motivator, and it can be
really good at making men like get out in the world.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
And do things. That's his argument.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
I'm not saying I necessarily agree, but it feels a
little bit like mainstream culture where like suppressing male horniness
and valorizing female horniness.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
I quite like it.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
I like it because, let's be honest, female horniness isn't dangerous,
right like, and I think that that's it, not that
all male horniness is.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
But it has a dangerous edge. It has a.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Dangerous edge when you think about sexual violence and you
think about domestic violence, which are two things that we
talk about increasingly, and we know that the rates are high.
A lot of women have experienced it, and so there's
something subversive about women being vocally like thirsty, and it
doesn't feel like it's got that sinister side.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
I agree, But I think to your point earlier about
are we responding to the culture? Has there always been there?
I think it's always been there because have you ever
been and I haven't for a very long time. But
in my twenties, and that was a long time ago,
I was writing a story about male strip groups, yep,
and I went to like a manpower concert in London.
You have never seen a hornier group of people than

(32:47):
a lot of women, remember, the.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
What do you call life?

Speaker 5 (32:50):
I went to the Magic Life. I went to one.
It was like in a circus tent. It was so sexy. Yeah,
it was so hot.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
I was so into it. It was very cool. I
followed one of them on Instagram. He still pops in.
He's got a lovely girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
But a horde of women particularly maybe they've been on
bitch diesel. Like there is something quite scary about that.
Not scary in the way that male salivating.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
It's there. But the thing is is I think that
that used to be kind of mocked.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
A bit, like that level of undisguised female sexual desire
is like a bit tragic. And I feel like maybe
what's shifted in the culture is it's not seen as
tragic now, it's seen to be something to be celebrated.
And to what you were saying, Jesse about at different
stages in your life.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
Because I was.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Reading this big piece in the New.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
York Times about how a pill for female libido is
supposed to be coming back. It's been pushed around and
pushed off the shells for a long time, with all
this discussion about whether or not women really want it.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Da da da da da.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
The article was an interview with this woman called Sandieka right,
and she's an American works in the health space, and
she and her company had invented a pill a while
ago that was supposed to deal with women's flagging libido. Now,
I'm not going to go into too much detail about
the pill because obviously it's not approved or available in Australia.
They're giving it the nickname of female viagra, but that's

(34:11):
not what it's called. But back to Cindy, she's been
trying to get this pill on the mainstream market for
decades and she's come up against all these barriers that
don't all seem to actually be medical, but more cultural
than then, as The New York Times wrote, as women
binge read copies of all fours, as you've said, devour
stories about gen x women having the best sex of
their life. Women of all ages are prioritizing their own

(34:33):
sex lives. So we played the long game, Ekert says,
and culture caught up. So it's like women are saying
that in the way that we're allowed to be sexual
beings at some parts of our lives, ideally while we're
young and hot in our twenties.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
When they become mothers. We don't like it.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
We don't like it when women are too sexy when
they're moms, and then when we become older, we don't
like it either because we're like, surely you're all dried
up now and not really interested in this stuff anymore.
And I think that as women have more of a voice,
we're going, y, yes, we are.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, And we've accepted that women's lives have natural ebbs
and flows when it comes to sexual desire, and it's like, oh,
during motherhood and menopause and da da da pressure. I
think that it can, but it's just interesting that we've
never accepted that with men, like virility and sexual desire
is critical. It's like from the day I don't know
your voice drops or whatever to the day you die

(35:29):
as a man, you should be wanting it all the time.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
And what I was saying before about Galloway's point where
he says it's like an engine, his thing was is
he said that horniness is like fire. It can be
dangerous to your point before Jesse, or it can be
harnessed to be a great like energized, and we sort
of go, oh, yeah, guys are like that, But women
can be like that too.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, but I think with women's horniness, the difference is
is that men's horniness just sticks on the surface level,
whereas like women's runs a bit deeper. Like I know
so like so many of my guy friends are obsessed
with you a Liba just because she's hot. Yeah, Like
they might like a music, but there's no way they
know that she has a podcast or club or she's
like an activist. Was like women, we see like if

(36:13):
my biggest crash was poor Mescal, I'm like watching everything
he's in. I'm reading every interview he does, even like
the Magic Mic Show. When I went, the number one
rule we were told was you can't touch the dancers. No,
certainly not, and no dancers were touched.

Speaker 5 (36:27):
So women get it.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Women get it.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
To the argument about whether or not it's pressure to go, well,
now you have to be horny all the time, postpartum,
post menopause, post everything, what's your excuse? Like horny, Horney, horny.
That can definitely be pressure. But also if your sexuality
was quite an important part of your identity and then
you lose it, it can be really challenging. Like it's

(36:49):
not that you necessarily feel that external pressure but you
can be like that used to be a big part
of who I was, and suddenly I couldn't think of anything.
I'd rather have a cup of tea, the famous quote,
it's like, I'd rather have a cup of tea. And
so I think the idea of being able to turn
that on if you could, if you want to, not
under pressure from somebody else to do it.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
And that was also masking things like the fact that
women weren't getting the support they needed after birth, that
painful sex was totally normalized, that sexual dysfunction was just
part of being a woman, that there was no such
thing as pelvic floor physios, that kind of stuff. And
now I think that there's been this injection into women's
health and also a focus on like it is a

(37:33):
health issue, like if you're having painful sex, or if
whatever it is, you deserve to have that part of
your life, if you want it.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, I love your point that we think that all
these guys on the Vanity Fair cover would definitely bring
us a cup of tea.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
And would they would? Would they?

Speaker 4 (37:53):
After the break, we are getting into our weekly recos
and it's getting to the end of year, so we
do have a few more than usual.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
You're welcome one unlimited out loud access.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusive for Mamma
Mia subscribers.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Follow the link at the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

Speaker 5 (38:25):
This is my best recommendation. It's Friday.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
We are going to set up your weekend with a
few very exciting recommendations.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
M you go first.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
Okay, I've got a big one today. So my recommendation
is the guitar F one race this weekend.

Speaker 5 (38:45):
Okay, can you tell me what this is all about?

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Because I obviously have inhaled drive to survive in a
single episode, I have seen these headlines. Why do I
need to watch it this weekend? Something's happened and I
don't know what's happened.

Speaker 4 (38:59):
Okay, I'm going to break it down for everyone. Even
if you don't watch F one, I'm going to tell
you why I need to watch this race. Okay. So
F one twenty drivers, ten teams, two drivers per team,
twenty four races. We have two more races coming up
for the whole season, for the whole season, so it's
near the end, near the end. So if you're not
across F one drivers race to win points, and if

(39:22):
you come first in the race, you get twenty five points,
and then second eighteen points, third and then your tenth
and you get one point, and if you're below ten
you get zero points. So the aim for the driver
is to become a world champion each year, and to
become world champion you need the most points.

Speaker 5 (39:38):
Yes, which Lewis Hamilton has won a million times.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
Lowis Hamilton's one heaps sometimes Max for Stapen. Max Forstappen
has been the current winner, he's won the last. Don't
reach for your water, Holly, and I will say this is.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
My cue to drink.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Speaking of female horniness and every F one driver, every
F one driver, if you need a reason to watch it.
But I have during pregnancy been having very intense streams
about some.

Speaker 5 (40:05):
F one drivers. I've had sex streams about some of them.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
Land Norris, Lando Norris, I have a serialized relationship within
my sleep. Also, he's your favorite, he's my favorite, so
I need him to win, and I need you to
tell me some good news about Lando Norris because this
is his year.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
Also, George Russell maximum stepan not my type.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Very good looking.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Okay, okay, those of us who are not watching F one,
come on.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
Jesse's picked interest a little bit. So now tell me why.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
The McLaren the McLaren team have been doing the best.
They have two drivers, Jesse's Lando Norris, yeah, who drives
for England, and Oscar Piastre. He's an Australian, so by
law we all have to be fans of Oscar Pastre
because Australian. Okay. The first half of the season, Oscar
was winning every race. He was coming on top, he

(40:54):
was getting the most points. We were like, this is
Australian's chance to win a championship.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Halfway through that switched, Lando Norris started winning all the races.
Oscar dropped down to the point where a lot of
rumors started that McLaren's favoring Lando. They were making some
team decisions. I put Lando up first.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
And that's when my dreams got really intense. I got
really into it and I was like, Lando, I've got it.
This year there was.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
Discussion about me naming my child Lando.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yes, yes, okay, so up until now, everyone was like, Okay,
this is going to be a bit of a boring
end of season because Lando's definitely going to win. He's
beating everyone by so many points.

Speaker 5 (41:34):
I put it to bed.

Speaker 4 (41:34):
Oscar felt like he was getting like a bit of
like stage fried, like he just wasn't performing. It was
like it's going to take a miracle for anything to change.
And then a miracle happened. Last weekend, we're in Las
Vegas for the Grand Prix. Max vistappin actually one, he
got twenty five points. Lando came second, so he got

(41:55):
eighteen points. Oscar came fifth, so he got a few
points and everyone was like, yay Max one, Max one.
Everyone loves Max, but it's like still not good enough.
He still can't beat Norris Lando. Norris is still at
the top. After the race, they do their podium, they
drenched the drivers in champagne. Everyone's happy, and then something happened.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Somebody fell over and broke the untain.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
The cars have to be checked right because the cars
have to be up to code. And then it was
announced on the McLaren cars the thickness of the rear
most skid of both cars were less than the required thickness,
meaning both Lando Norris and Oscar Piastre were disqualified no points.

(42:37):
No points for Lando and Oscar.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
There was something wrong with their skid, something was wrong
with their skins.

Speaker 5 (42:42):
Kinds from your Bob Jane Tmark's work.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, so very I'm very fluent in tires and you
don't want to mess with your skids.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
Okay, okay, we're getting there now. Norris is on three
hundred and ninety points, Oscar Pastre is on three hundred
and sixty six points. Max Vestappin also on three sixty
six points. There's only two races left, and everyone is
so locked in because it could still be anyone's championship.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
I think I'll cry if it's Norris. This is his
one chance, this is his chance. It's got to be
Lando Norris.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
Come on, more races left.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
He's from your sport. I do not consider this a sport.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Oh, Holly, Wayne, right, all right, we're all watching it
over the weekend.

Speaker 5 (43:24):
I'm watching it. Lando Norris, come on.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Awake for the race.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
It's going to be Monday at three am.

Speaker 5 (43:34):
I'm going to be so tired on Monday. And oh
I love it, I love it.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
I love next time you guys slagged me off for
talking about gardening. I'm just bringing up that five minutes.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Which I have a working day. Every time you talk
about gardening, we can talk work.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
Yes, exactly. Lando should have been in that vanity fair.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
He doesn't like women.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
Oh he does, my dreams. I'll tell you that.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Okay, I have got a recommendation for you that is
lifting us out of the dole drums here right, The
Mushroom Tapes.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
It is a new book.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
It is by three of Australia's most impressive writers. Helen
Ghana bowed down Helen Ghana, so she's written this alongside
two various them journalists who are also really good mates
of hers, So Chloe Hooper, who's written about cases before,
including the brilliant tall Man book, and Sarah Krasnerstein, who
I think she wrote The Trauma Cleaner, and she's an

(44:28):
amazing I think originally Canadian journal who lives in Australia now.
And the three women are friends and obviously writers and
decided that they would cover it together and that's resulted
in this book.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
It is, of.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Course the story of the Mushroom Trial as we all
know it, right, which is the triple murder trial of
Erin Patterson happening Regional Victoria just a few months ago,
where she was accused of murdering her parents in law,
Gail and Don Patterson, as well as Gail's sister Heather Wilkinson,
and attempting to murder Heather's husband Ian.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
But it is about so much more.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
They talk about all these different elements of the trial
that they think might be more or that we might
have missed. And there's lots of discussion about feminism, about
religion because the Patterson family were Baptists and very religious,
and Erin married Simon and sort of entered that world
and said she had a religious conversion when before she
was a confirmed atheist. And there's just it's so fascinating.

(45:24):
It takes all these different looks at the case. If
you ever read any of Helen Ghana's crime books, oh yeah,
so she wrote particularly an amazing one called This House
of Grief, which full circle.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Your mate Jua Leipa has.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Given a whole new lease of life too, because she
loved this book so much that she had Helen Ganner
on her podcast. Now Helen Garner and Juwa Liipa on
a podcast talking about a book about a murder that
happened in regional Victoria back in two thousand and five
or something. It is not something that many of us
had on a bingo kada, but it happened. So Helen
Garner is now like worldwide level famous for the most

(45:59):
beautiful writing about real life trials and crimes.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
She brings so much humanity and intellect to it. Anyway,
everyone knew that Helena was in the courtroom when Aaron
Pattinson's case is going on, and they were all like, Oh,
she's gonna write ano book. She's going to write another book.
But Helen Ghana says that she's too old to write
another big book, old dereckon she is eighty three.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
She says this very explicitly in the book. She says,
I'm coming to the end of my life and my
professional life, and I don't think I've got that heavy
lift in me. But Chloe Hooper and Sarah Krasnerstein they
kind of got together and decided they'd do it together.
And what they've done is they basically drove down to
the court as many times as they could and stayed
down there and did all these things and recorded all

(46:41):
their conversations and have turned their conversations into a book.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
So are you listening to it? Almost like you'd listened.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
To a podcast.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So I'm listening to the audiobook so you can buy
this book. When it came out, everybody was.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Like the cover, like it's so plain.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
It's just literally green with the Mushroom Trials on it
and their names. But it's a very deliberately low fi release,
and they've been doing lots of events talking about it
and stuff. But I'm listening to it, and as an
audio book, it's extraordinarily satisfying because it's their voices parts
of it like a phone call. There's a narrator who
weaves it all together with sort of details of the trial.

(47:17):
And this is a story that obviously we all know
very well, but listening to these three brain breakingly intelligent
women talking about it is like it wigging on really
smart friends. And they have such interesting takes on it,
Like Ghana is very interested in the marriage and how

(47:38):
ordinary that breakdown was, and the anger and the rage
that you feel in those kind of situations. There's a
lot of grace paid to the victims and what kind
of people they were.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
It's just an amazing book.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
And they also talk, which is really interesting, about what
it was like to be part of that scrum. Because
although Ghana loves court cases and she's covered millions of them,
not millions, but lots of them, she's never been in
one way. You've got this massive international media and as
they say, like nine podcasters, fourteen different and they are
kind of repelled by the interest in it as much

(48:12):
as they're then like exploring their own position and all that.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So it's very it's kind of meta.

Speaker 5 (48:18):
Anyway I'm going to listen is so good, and it's
their voices.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
It's them telling you. It's all I want to listen to.
I mean, it's a true crime story on one level,
but listening to these women talk about it is a
whole other thing. Yeah, And I can't recommend it highly enough.
The book book is out, but the audiobook is special.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
I have two quick recommendations. The first is a New
Yorker article that I read over the weekend. Have you
read Tatyana Schlosberg's essay about her terminal counts diagnosed?

Speaker 2 (48:48):
So I have because you send it to me, and
it is absolutely devastating.

Speaker 5 (48:52):
It is so heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
She is thirty five and a year ago, following the
birth of her second child, she was diagnosed with a
rare form of lakemia that is terminal. And it is
just a stunning meditation on life and death and how
desperately she still wants to be here. And she is

(49:15):
the cousin of RFK Junior, who is trying to slash
lots of money to vaccine funding, which will directly impact her.
So she has some really interesting things to say about that.

Speaker 5 (49:28):
But you'll cry.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
But it's also just a reminder that life is precious
and sometimes we need that. And then to show you
up the hair brush. The out louders have been asking,
I tease this a few weeks ago. I said, there's
a hair brush I'm obsessed with, but it is currently
sold out.

Speaker 5 (49:42):
Well it is back in stock.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
I need a new hair rush. So but I don't
look at my strands.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
Your head's beautiful, and but this one is perfect. It
is called the Premium bore Bristle hairbrush by brush Ology.
Now all bristles, four bristles, right, And I looked into this.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
As in like pig Yes.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Now, if you're a vegan, don't buy this brush. But
I looked into the ethic and I went, yes, I
will use this hairbrush. So look, do your own research.
But I have the knottiest hair when I get out
of the shower, so so naughty. Since using this hair brush,
I don't have to do that.

Speaker 5 (50:19):
You know, the fight you do to get all the outime.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
I just don't have knots anymore. It just goes straight through,
makes it really shiny. Has saved me so much time.
It is the best hair brush I have ever used.
I am obsessed and it is thirty four dollars. There
is a link in the show.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
Notes out loud as we have something very very exciting
to share with you. Because it's Black Friday, mumam me
is actually giving you our biggest discount of the year
in our subscription. Right now, you can get twenty one
dollars off the yearly subscription, bringing it down to just
forty eight dollars for the entire year.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
And that doesn't contribute to Landfilm, which I really appreciate.
It means full access to all of Muma MEA's podcasts,
and a lot of outlauders.

Speaker 5 (51:00):
Might not know this.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
It also means full access to Move. I'm on move
all the time at the moment with strength plar Is Cardio.
It has so many workouts that you can do whenever
you like. It's got subscriber giveaways, but you have to
be quick because there is a link in the show
notes for this offer, but it ends at eleven fifty
nine PM on the first of December.

Speaker 5 (51:22):
Do not miss out, don't forget.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Parenting out Loud will be dropping tomorrow with Amelia Mons
and Stacy Search Parenting out Loud, Tap follow and thank
us later links in the show notes. A massive thank
you to all of you out louders for listening to
today's show or watching today's show on YouTube, and of
course to our fabulous team for putting it together. Why
don't you guys read us out?

Speaker 3 (51:44):
A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Ruth Devine, executive producer Sasha Tannic.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porgees, our video producer
is Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovich.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
By Bye Bye, Muma Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of
the land which we have recorded this podcast.

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