November 6, 2024 • 32 mins
It's the bonkbuster TV show that two of us can't get enough of. The other needs it explaining. Rivals: Deep commentary on our collective cultural psyche or just… a bloody good time?
Plus, the knotty ethics of Bonnie Blue, the most infamous sex worker at Schoolies. Many thoughts, much to discuss.
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What to Read:
- Read: As the US election polls close, we asked people on the ground how they’re really feeling.
- Read: OPINION: Bonnie Blue's plan to sleep with 'barely legal' Schoolies is more than a headline-grabbing controversy.
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CREDITS:
Hosts: Holly Wainwright, Mia Freedman & Jessie Stephens
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out Loud. It's all women are actually talking about.
On Wednesday, the sixth of November.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And on the show today, out louders, you're going to
hear something a little bit different today, and I'm just
going to tell you exactly why, because it's been a
bit of a chaotic day at Mama Mea out Loud,
as I'm sure you can imagine, with a little something
that's going on in America. So we recorded our normal
show at our normal time today and we did a
bit of a vibe check on where everybody was about
the election. We didn't do any predictions, but we talked
(00:52):
about what people might be able to expect for the
rest of the day and the week, and of course
things have not entirely gone according to plan. So here's
what we've done. We have recorded a special episode just
for you, an emergency meeting that is all about where
we stand with the American Election on Wednesday afternoon evening right,
(01:12):
that has me mea Jesse Amelia Lester. It's feelings, its thoughts,
it's where things are standing. And if you are feeling anxious,
if you're feeling worried, if you're feeling triumphant, you want
to go and listen to that. If you would rather
eat a box of hair than hear anything else about
the American election, or you just need to avoid it,
we've got you. The rest of this show is American
(01:33):
Election Free and it's just a little bit shorter than
usual because we took out our original election chat and
needed it. So that is full disclosure on what you're
about to hear. So remember, if you want to hear
our thoughts and feelings about the American election, there is
a special emergency Meeting episode in your feed, and if
you want to avoid it, listen to this one. And
if you want to do both, please do.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
In case you missed it, you need to get rid
of your black Spachelor in the bin.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Like, what do you mean watch black Plastic Dispatchela. If
you've got it, then in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Sorry, hold way, I don't know where you keep your Spachelor.
Maybe it's in your bedside table because of what you
like to.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Just a bit say spatually. You mean like the thing
you cook, like.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Your eggs?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Are you high?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I have a metal one?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
This is probably because is that black? Jesse?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
But does that make me better than people with black one?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Sorry? You mean the black plastic spatula that we all
do our fried eggs and stuff with.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Not all, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sorry, Miya. So are we clear on what its
bachelor is and where it's kept? Jesse? Are we clear
on what black is? Can I continue? Please? Continue?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'm sorry, Miya, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
The reason you have to get rid of your black
plastics bachelor in your kitchen or your bedroom, sorry it
is is because it's probably leeching chemicals into your cooking oil.
Oh that's not ideal, which also might be in your bedroom.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I don't know whole Well, it's about, isn't it about?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It reacts with heat, so Polly's using it in the bedroom.
It's reacting with Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
It's lay now that you've shown it to me, I
have that spatula that exact spatchelor. So there was an
article in the Atlantic couple of days ago which I
screenshot and put in my family group chat saying, everyone
throw out your black bachelors immediately, and I was immediately
trolled by my children.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Jesse was still busy googling what black is.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
But because I often tell them things right about carcinogens,
which are cancer causing chemicals and are found in certain products,
and sometimes there are certain foods that in high quantities.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Are linked to health anxiety or is this like legit
it's looking after other people. Yes, so my kids when
they want to troll me, they just send photos of
themselves eating salami. Yum, salami.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Stop it, don't eat salami.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I don't understand the science, right, I read this whole article.
Ye don't understand.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Don't need So what I need.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Is a headline, which is We're thrown out our black spachelors.
There is another headline, Holly, which is keep cups also
really good. We love keep cups for the environment, but
also because if you've got a hot coffee with a
black plastic lid, also leaching the chemicals.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
What is it the black that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yes, if that is green, is it okay?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I think so?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
So black silicon could be different about plastic, but I
will get that under advisement and I will come back
to you.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I just need someone to write a list of what
to throw out.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
What am I supposed to use instead of my cooking utensils?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
No, that's bad metal on your metal pans?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Scratch, No, so you would, I don't know. I use
a wooden spoon.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Spoon.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You can also get wooden. Like wooden, you can get
with loud.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Jump in the outludders group and just link us to
a spatialize.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I'm not going to tell you what you should use.
I'm just going to tell you what you need to
stop using.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's above my pay grade telling you what cooking utensils
you should use. I'm just going to read you this
one thing right instead of me just telling you it.
Cooking with any plastic is a dubious enterprise because he
encourages potentially harmful plastic compounds to migrate out of the
polymers and potentially into the food. But as Andrew Turner,
a biochemist at the University of Limuth, recently said, black
(05:11):
plastic is particularly crucial to avoid. Oh shit, do you
No one else is not great? Black plastic Sushi trays.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Just don't sat.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Now, I'm just petrified of everything. I can't leave this
room in a moment.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Holly and May are gonna attempt to explain to me
why so many people, including out louders, are losing their
shit over a sexy TV show and if you haven't
seen it, me neither. So I will be the voice
of reason.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Me out loud.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is going to be marvelous.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Jesse doesn't really want me to talk about Rivals, and
I get it because, just a little behind the scenes,
when we decide whether or not we're going to talk
about a TV show on out Loud, we always very
much like prosecute with each other whether everybody really is
watching this or whether it feels like in our world.
Because in my world it feels like everybody is watching Rivals.
I think it's the most popular recommendation I've ever given.
(06:18):
Mia and I were out and about last night and
people literally stopped me on the street to say Rivals.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So it's like very and my argument is always that
if you haven't watched the show, there's nothing work. Have
you ever been like a dinner party and ring that
TV show? And then they talk about it and they're like,
evenly need to and I'm just like, this is boring
for me that person.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So the way I convinced Jesse because I was like,
everyone's watching it, Jesse, and She's like, no, only Hollies
are watching it. And I was like, Okay, then let's
say it's making an important cultural statement about the world
right now. Am I allowed to talk about it then?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And you said.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, I was in And then I just quietly mentioned
all the bonking anyway. Bonking is a very specific, intentional
word here for the kind of sex that's on display
on Rivals right. Rivals is a TV show on Disney
Plus based on famous Jilly Cooper novels of the nineteen eighties,
and the sex in it very specific kind of sex
(07:11):
in that there's a lot of it. Everybody is sleeping
with everybody within minutes. Are all her books? Just put
Jilly Cooper in context. I've heard her books described as bonkbusters. Yes,
are they all bonkbusters? They are all bonkbusters. So in
the nineteen eighties, there was Jilly Cooper, there was Jackie Collins,
there was Judith Krantz. There was a couple of others
female authors who were writing what were also often called
(07:32):
sex and shopping novels. They were very, very dismissed, and
for good reason. In lots of way like they are light,
there's no question about that. But with hindsight they are
also being seen as actually very smart social satire, and
Jilly Cooper is posh as right. This is her world,
the world being reflected here in Rivals, which is Tory
MP's living in their Cotswold stately homes, lords and ladies
(07:56):
and classes that play a lot that is Jilly Cooper's world.
But lots of people are clutching their pearls about why
everybody's so into Rivals. And I have a theory and
we'll get more to it in a minute, which is
partly because sex has become very serious right in the
way we discuss it, and for very good reason.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You know, in recent times women love sex, but also
sex has been used as a weapon against us. It's
been disappointing us, it's been exhausting us, and we feel
like we're allowed to say all that for the first
time and talk about it. And it's very important, but
it's not a lot of fun. And sometimes sex is
just fun, and sometimes TV is just fun, and sometimes
(08:34):
culture just needs to be fun and maybe in the
world that we're living in right now, for all the
reasons we were just discussing and many more. What the
success of Rivals is showing us is that that first
for escapism is really at a very high pitch. I
think nobody wants this, and the success of that shows
another side of that too. It's just sort of silly,
you know, but this is a very specific kind of silly. Mia.
(08:57):
Why do you think everybody's loving Rivals?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I think you're spot on.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I think it's the escapism in that you don't have
to think. There are no life lessons in Rivals. There's
no moralizing, no scolding. Because it's set in the eighties
at a television network, a sort of rural regional television network.
It was a simpler and yes, in many case worse,
but definitely simpler time. And I was reading something about it,
(09:25):
a review that said, to love Jilli Cooper's stories is
to be constantly aware of how amesh they are in
a particular time and place, one where racehorses were celebrities,
groping was standard, and everybody seemed to be in love
with Princess Diana. And then it also says In Jilli
Cooper's World, men conquer women's si, the sun shines perpetually
(09:46):
on gold Cotswold's mansions, Marie Bells in Bloom, and absolutely
everybody is down to fuck. There's like a remarkable lack
of angst. And that doesn't mean that you look at
like the groping scenes and the sexism, like my reaction
to it. I look at it, and I was around
for those times. I was young in the eighties, but
(10:08):
you know, I worked in restaurants and worked in workplaces
where sexual harassment happened.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And it's not that it's.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Like, oh, they were the good old days where you
could just get pinched on the bum and it was flirting.
I look at that and it makes me feel good
because I'm like, look how far we've come. But in
the actual show, apart from one scene in this, there's
not angst amongst the characters. The characters don't they angst,
but not about I don't want to say politically correct things,
(10:35):
because that's it just was a time when you didn't
question things, you just sort of accepted them.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It's hedonism, I think, And like I was reading this
analysis on it, and it was saying the people are happy,
which is really nice.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
There were less choices.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I can't believe I'm saying this, but like, there's a
whole bit where one of the main female characters who's
sleeping with her boss and everybody knows she's sleeping with
her boss, and then she's offered another job and she
just doesn't really have any angst about sleeping with her boss,
and no one else really has any angst for her.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
There are a lot of parallels in some ways between
the eighties and now, like because I was looking back,
being like, oh, it's less nihilistic, Like there's such nihilism now.
People feel this sort of depressive realism and this cynicism
that maybe we're really sick of seeing reflected back to us.
But I was reading like the eighties, when you really
think about it, nuclear war, Like people were terrified. It's
(11:29):
not like things were perfect.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And thatches Britain was a very difficult, dark place. Not
that you'd know that from watching Rival, No.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But despite all of that, and I think there's some
truth to it, there was optimism even though people were
scared about the nuclear war stuff. You know, what was
happening in the US and Russia, and it was, you know,
Wake of Vold, all of that kind of stuff. There
was this sense of optimism and this sense of hedonism, which.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And also naivety Jesse because two things that struck me
watching this. Firstly was the lack of surgery. It was
cast really really well because people looked different in the
eighties and the nineties and even in the early two
thousands before everyone was having botox.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Feelers, perfect teeth.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
People looked differently, their bodies looked different, their faces looked different.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And they were all having sex regardless. They were all
having sex, not necessarily in real life, but in this show.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
And also people look different to each other. There wasn't
this homogenized beauty standard in quite the same way. But
because no one had phones and there was no internet,
things literally were more simple because you had access to
less information and the information of the world didn't intrude
on you every minute of every day.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I was reading quotes by Jilly Cooper and she said
life is quite short of joy, and I think sex
is heaven. And she's just like she really likes sex
like a lot, and she's very worried that the young
people aren't having sex anymore. She has all these theories
as to why they're not having sex, and her number
one theory is jogging, and she says that jogging is
really bad for people's sex life because the thing about
(13:00):
this show is that no one need to take it
up early. It was like everyone slept in. There's no alarms,
there's no green smoothies, No, there's no gh there's no exercise,
there's no protein, there's no like.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
There's also no pawn on taps. So if you horny,
then go find somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
There weren't vibrators really not to my knowledge, she.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Says, and she's gotten a bit of backlash for this
that Me Too took the fun out of sex, and
a few people have gone like, I think everyone can
agree that it was a really important revolution, but to
look at it and go sex can also be really fun.
And in novels and television since the Me Too movement,
sex has become it's like every sex scene has to
(13:39):
have the awkwardness and the body hair and the then
I scuttled out of the thing and there was seemen,
like just too much fucking detail that we've gone really
really deep and clinical on in this It's like she
was saying, you know, two people find each other and
then they hump for two and a half minutes and
they both orgasm at the same time, and it's like,
sometimes we just want our sex like that.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I also think that we always have to remember because
I think it's dangerous for us and for the enthusiasm
for this to be. And I know this isn't what
you're saying mere but to be read as like a
longing for a pre medio era. I don'noce it, right,
I really really don't. I think we also always need
to remember that like witnessing something and enjoying it isn't
endorsing it. So the fact that I love watching Rupert
(14:23):
Campbell Black, who's like the cat in this you know,
I'm enjoying watching him, does not mean that I think, oh,
of course he should just shove his hand up girl's skirts.
And of course I don't think that sexual assault is
very serious and of course like it's none of that.
It's just that like a mature recognition that you can
witness something and enjoy something and also have critical thought
about it that you don't necessarily need to apply to that.
(14:45):
Even though I'm loving rivals, I don't think even it
means that we should be lionizing Jilly Cooper. Like I
listened to Jilly Cooper on Elizabeth Day recently she did
How to Fail. It was a very unsatisfying experience because
in a modern world, you know, what we expect from
a podcast interview with an author is like lots of analysis,
lots of and Elizabeth Day kept trying to get her
(15:06):
to engage in that, and she just won't because that's
just not how she sees the world. For example, she
was talking about how she's always on a diet. She's
like nearly eighty, she's always on a diet, and so
Elizabeth Day was trying to like lead her into don't
you think that's because the culture has always told you
you're not good enough? And don't you think that's really sad?
And don't you think you like being so cruelty yourself
and don't think it's a terrible message. And Jilly Cooper's
(15:26):
just literally they're going, darling, I just don't want to
be fat. Like that's her world and her bubble, and
it doesn't mean that we should all applaud that and
be like, yes, we should all be like Jilly Cooper.
It's just like things can just be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
You know, I've been reading about how it's like this
really subtle form of satire without the commentary, because I
think we're used to being knocked over the head with messages.
So even in kids' books, you can't pick up a
kid's book without being like, and this is a message
about blah, which I think for some people is very American.
In fact, Baby Reindeer had a similar A lot of
(16:00):
people said a similar thing that because it was an
American it could deal with complexity and nuance in a
way where someone didn't get up and go and this
is what to take from this show. Yeah, sometimes it's
better to not have that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Interestingly, though, and this will be interesting to see. I've
seen a lot of commentary that Rivals needs to do
well in America to get a second season green lit,
and it might not do well in America, yeah, because
it's a very high production value. The soundtrack is unbelievable.
But that kind of stuff costs a fortune and great cast,
very high production values, and whether or not it does
(16:33):
well in America, like this is why I'm desperate for
you to watch it, Jesse, because I need to know
what the hell you would make of it in the
same way I'm dying to know what an American would
make of it, like it's so different to everything else
that's on the TV right now. Well, thanks for the feedback.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Great, I'd love your feedback.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
What a gift.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Look, speaking of TV shows, I want to introduce a
new little mini segment called feedback is a gift, And
I have some feedback for the people in charge of
streaming networks, and it is this thank you to the
streamers who are still letting us binge.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
On our shows.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
What I'm really struggling with are my shows on streaming
that are dropping once a week because I can't remember
where they are or when they drop. So I've started
to watch all these shows. So they'll start by dropping
two or three. I'll watch those, I'll be like, this
is great, I want to watch more, and then it'll
be like next episodes in a week. I'm like, well,
(17:37):
that's great, as if I'm going to remember, so.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You forget, you forget about.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So I've half started six new shows.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
I can't find any of them. I've forgotten what half
of them are. I can't retain the plot from week
to week. I'm not happy. So that's my feedback.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I think you need to. I just want to be
in probably bring that to your psychologist, but I completely disagree.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, we dook.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I really like it. I like looking forward to something.
I actually think it like there's like more momentum, and
all week I'm just like, can't wait, can't wait.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Home, not for a half hour show though, maybe for
an hour shot. Okay, okay, but I'm watching.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Disclaimer at the moment. Couldn't tell you when it drops.
I don't know how often it drops or how many
episodes today night. Yeah, but then I think they didn't
drop one for two weeks, like it's I'm just all
over the shop after.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
The break, the woman making very big money off young
men at schoolies Shocking or the most Consensual Environment for
Sex out loud As.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
If you want to listen to us every day of
the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.
Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
support us, and a big thank you to all our
current subscribers.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
They have to fill in two consent forms. They have
to bring ID so they've already ben have to think
about it a lot, and they're fully aware like this,
it's not a shock on the day I'm going to
feel there. They're aware they need to film there, and
it's in a controlled environment. You can't be drinking beforehand,
you can't have done drugs. So when you think of
a safe environment, it's the security on the door as well.
So it's sort of what about it is unsafe.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Australia is in the grips of a moral panic about
a woman named Bonnie Blue. Only Fans, barely legal boys
and schoolies. If this sounds vaguely familiar, that would be
because we had this discussion this time last year when
three Only Fans creators spoke on National TV about targeting
young men on schoolies, filming their consensual sex and then
(19:37):
profiting off it. This year, creator Bonnie Blue is going
to the Gold Coast alongside another high profile Only Fans
creator named Annie Knight. You interviewed Annie Night, didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You, ma'am?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I did for No Filter.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, really really interesting interview Night posted on TikTok. Bonnie
Blue and I are going to be pleasuring some barely
legal eighteen year olds and we are so excited meet
us there. We can't wait. The Adult Industry Choice Awards
has posted a statement on Instagram about these two women
that reads, we do not, don't or support behavior that
(20:10):
exploits young individuals, particularly those in the early stages of adulthood.
And they've said eighteen to twenties filming content that involves
young men or women who may not be fully developed
or aware of potential long term impacts crosses a line
that we as a community should be committed to avoiding.
This type of behavior is a violation of the values
and ethics that underpin a responsible and respectful adult industry.
(20:34):
They actually said that what they're doing makes a laughing
stock of the whole industry and it puts sex workers
and content creators in harm's way, And they announced that
they were stripping any individuals who do this kind of
thing of any accolades that they've given them. Harrison, what
kind of accolade? Well, if they've been given as the
Industry Choice Awards, if you've won an award their.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Life, give it back.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You've got to give it back.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So it's not like they get government grants or anything.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't think so. Harrison James, who is an activist
and a child sexual assault survivor wrote an article on
Muma Maya where he argued that these young men are
products of a society where mainstream pornography has conditioned them
to view all sexual experiences as a measure of status
and validation and a ticket to manhood, and he sees
(21:19):
this as exploiting teenage boys under the guise of content creation.
He said that in his own experience, these harmful narratives
made him believe that what he endured was part of
a sexual fantasy rather than a violation. So people might
suggest that if you're a young boy and you have
any sexual experience, whether coercion or exploitation, was involved with
(21:41):
an older woman, then that's a fantasy that's not illegal,
and hers for the boy, for the boys. So even
a lot of comments and he's said this about what
he's posted on Instagram, a lot of comments are like,
stop blocking them. This is every man's fantasy. And he's
saying that is really harmful if you're a young boy
who has been a victim of child sexual abuse, because
it really confuses your understanding of what happened.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Can we draw a slight line between child and eighteen
to twenty year olds get what he's saying, and I
think that's a really interesting point of view, and I'm
going to definitely read that and think about it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
But I just think that.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Comparing eighteen year olds to children, or women sleeping with
eighteen year olds to women or men because it's children,
I just think that's a different conversation, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Because isn't one of the main things in this is
they have to show id that they are eighteen.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
They do, so they're not children.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But in James's defense, and also the age of consent
is sixteen, Yes, and she's only doing this for eighteen
and over correct.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yes, but they're the ones using the term barely legal,
so they're the ones who are throwing barely legal. They
have talked about freshies are real specific.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
So it's a marketing term.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It's a marketing term, and it's also about taking their virginity.
Both women have talked about their desire to take the
virginity of these young men and whether or not it's legal.
I think what those particular tis speak to is a
vulnerability and a difference in the power of someone who
has had no sexual experience at all and someone who
(23:19):
is saying I slept with thirty three people yesterday.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Okay, I listened to a little grab of podcast Into
with Bonnie Blue where she says that so this is
obviously part of her whole thing has made her very rich.
This is how a year rolls out. She goes to
a spring breaking Cancoon, then she comes to Schoolies in Australia,
then she goes and does fresh As Week in England.
She says, the cues can be eight hours long. So
(23:42):
the boys the met yep. So the men who were
queuing up to have sex with Bonnie Blue, and I
assume the others are signing release forms, waiting in line
for eight hours, showing their ID passing a sobriety test.
How are they being exploited? There is no other sex
that they would have at Schoolies Week that requires that
(24:04):
level of scrutiny and consent. They're not drunk in a bar.
They're not older women preying on boys in inverted comments
who are drunken bars. This is like a very intentional experience.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So if this is presented, and let's be clear, this
is rage baiting, right.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Marketing, because she makes She said that in September she
made five hundred thousand pounds, which is nearly a million dollars,
so she is getting incredibly rich. If you look at
her Instagram, she appears like any other influencer you follow.
It's all just skink care and kittens and shopping, right,
and she's like, I'm rich, I like designer bags. It's
very aspirational. There isn't any sex on there. Then if
(24:44):
you go to her adult platforms, the way she describes
herself is I'm every wife's worst nightmare. I'm excellent, banter,
perky tits, juicy ass, blah blah blah.
Speaker 6 (24:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
The thing is, though, is that again I don't have
to approve of that or think that it's good for
the world, but these are adult people consenting to a
sexual experience.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think that the reason why there's such a moral
panic is because it's not illegal, right, Like we can
all agree what they're doing. No, no, no, but I think
it would be clearer. I mean, the term of barely
legal is like they're kind of purposely muddying well, the ethics,
And I think we're always going to have arguments about
the ethics of sex and consent, like more so than
ever in the last few years, and this is subverting
(25:29):
a lot of what we understand about sex because it's
the female who is older. She's twenty five and the
boys are eighteen. So even though the age gap isn't enormous,
someone's making money out of it and someone isn't. But
that's also the porn industry, right, except it's the other
way around. So the porn industry, we know people going
praying on barely legal women to get them into the
(25:51):
adult industry, and then it's often the men who are
making all the money off it, which is why only
fans has absolutely blown up. But we've looked at that
model and we don't feel good about it. Ethically. I
think it's that the model is now being replicated. But
with these women and what they're saying. I went deep
on both of their tiktoks and it says your sex
(26:14):
life will be downhill from here. This is your fantasy.
It's women presenting themselves as in service of men, and
it feels like it fits into this sort of male
in cell internet nobody.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
But it's and again I want to be really clear
that I'm not. It's not like I think, Yay, this
is the best thing ever, but it's the opposite of that,
because they are saying those things to those guys while
they are taking their money.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
They're taking their money, yes, but what they are presenting
themselves as. I'm not saying that every sex worker does this,
but they're presenting themselves as like men need to be
sexually serviced. And they will say that. They'll say, if
your husband cheats on you, it's because you're lazy and
you're not giving him what they want again, rage baiting,
and I am servicing your men. And like even with
the SCHOOLI thing, they're like, you know, when you finish,
(27:01):
finish wherever you want. Like they're playing up this female fantasy.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
I have a question. I have two questions. Actually, firstly,
does money change hands?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Well, the boys are oh no, no, they don't get paid, but.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
The girls don't get paid either, right, like get paid
for only fans exactly. So when you say it's the fantasy,
Holly's right, it's the fantasy of the people who pay
to watch it, which are men. Women aren't watching that,
so I understand what you're saying. You're saying that these
women are reinforcing the standard of porn which centers the
(27:33):
male experience, because that's who they're paying customers are and
that's what these.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Boys, they're replicating a fantasy.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah, okay, I understand that. But also people have said
to me, how would you feel because I'm going to
re replay I'm going to get Annie to tell us
a little bit about this and replay this interview in
no filter this week. But you know, I was having
a conversation with someone who said, well, how would you
feel if this was a male OnlyFans creator coming and
(28:04):
doing this with girls?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And I'm like, that's a different thing.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's not because there aren't the cultural historical power imbalances.
It's a reversal. It's kind of a little bit like
talking about reverse racism. It's like it's in a completely
different context. Women having sex with younger men do.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
What we're doing like with men, is we socialize them
to think that they should always want to have sex,
that it's a mark of their power and their masculinity, and.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
It just see its school is, like, that's what happens
at school.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Is But I feel like that's a bit defeatist and
limiting of men.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
The thing is, Jessee, right, I entirely agree with all
your culsory, but this is what I entirely agree with
your ethical feelings about it, Like do I look at
this and go like, yeah, yeah, I do, right, But honestly,
I don't get to police other people's fantasies and sex
lives when they are consenting adults. The only time that
this is deeply problematic is if consent is blurry. And
(29:05):
as I've said, most of the sex going on at
schoolies where people are under the influence of drugs and alcohol,
and you know, we've all seen those awful occasions when
you know people are filmed against their will and that
goes back like that stuff is deeply problematic. In my mind,
this is the least problematic of the sex that's happening
at schoolies because it's all above board, out on the table,
(29:26):
a very very clear exchange of service.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I think that the way whether or not I.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Think that those boys or those women boys, men should
want to do this is none of my business.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I think what's overlaid with this that I think people
are trying to say, and Harris and James is trying
to say, and I agree with him on this, is
we like to think that men cannot be sexually vulnerable,
or that men cannot be vulnerable in sexual dynamics.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I I don't agree with that, and that's not true.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, and so I think again, if it was reversed
and we go who's more sexually experienced and blah blah blah,
then I agree that it's different to an extent, But
I still think that a young man can be sexually exploited.
I also think the other reason I'm finding it icky
is that it's on the whole bad for women. I
keep thinking about the girls who are on schoolies like
(30:11):
Annie Knight and Bonnie Bloke, like it's school isn't for you, Yeah,
go go away, go home, Like school isn't for twenty
five year old sex workers. It's for a bunch of
young people, whether it's messy sex or whether it's when
I was eighteen.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Like TOOLI is too old for school.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And if the guy that I'm having, you know, a
one night stand with, was with a sex worker last night,
like in terms of the expectations that sets for me
and what sex that men might expect, you know, I
just think it's not Like again, it's not illegal. I
just think it's ethically dubious.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think it's depressing.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I agree that's all we've.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Got time for today, out louders, some of us, all
of us, a few of us, and Amelia might be
popping up in the next few days. We're going to
be giving you your regular show on Friday, of course,
for a whole dose of escapism. But until then, we
love you loads. Thanks to our fabulous team for helping
us on this big week, and we'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Bye bye Mayor have you ever thought about a buzz cut?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I have cut my hair really really short on a
number of occasions I've seen one time, I also bleached
it white, so I looked like the eightieth pop star.
Yeahs okay, Well, always up after that haircut.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
If you need a break from the US election, you
need some escapism and you want to talk about hair,
well let me tell you. Holly and Vernon and I
had a fascinating conversation about hair and what it means
for women, and it was based off Holly was listening
to a fascinating podcast with Elizabeth Gilbert, who talked about
the realization of the epiphany she had that made her
(31:45):
shave her head and how much sort of hair cuts,
what we choose to do with our hair changes our identity.
Here's a snake peek.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
I always heard that there's no other feeling than feeling
wind on the back of your hair, and I'm like,
I want to experience that so badly. But I think
people associate a personality to your hair, like they automatically
assume he were. And I know this because I think
it was three or four years ago. Now, do you
remember when I went blue?
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (32:12):
What did I do when I went blue? Because I
was still dating at the time, and I remember at
least five or six men who would always swipe left
on me on the dating app swipe right. Oh, and
I remember thinking, they assume a personality to this hairstyle.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
What do you think they were assuming? I think it's
like if you want to listen to the rest, there
is a link in our show.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Notes shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out Loud. It's all women are actually talking about.
On Wednesday, the sixth of November.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And on the show today, out louders, you're going to
hear something a little bit different today, and I'm just
going to tell you exactly why, because it's been a
bit of a chaotic day at Mama Mea out Loud,
as I'm sure you can imagine, with a little something
that's going on in America. So we recorded our normal
show at our normal time today and we did a
bit of a vibe check on where everybody was about
the election. We didn't do any predictions, but we talked
(00:52):
about what people might be able to expect for the
rest of the day and the week, and of course
things have not entirely gone according to plan. So here's
what we've done. We have recorded a special episode just
for you, an emergency meeting that is all about where
we stand with the American Election on Wednesday afternoon evening right,
(01:12):
that has me mea Jesse Amelia Lester. It's feelings, its thoughts,
it's where things are standing. And if you are feeling anxious,
if you're feeling worried, if you're feeling triumphant, you want
to go and listen to that. If you would rather
eat a box of hair than hear anything else about
the American election, or you just need to avoid it,
we've got you. The rest of this show is American
(01:33):
Election Free and it's just a little bit shorter than
usual because we took out our original election chat and
needed it. So that is full disclosure on what you're
about to hear. So remember, if you want to hear
our thoughts and feelings about the American election, there is
a special emergency Meeting episode in your feed, and if
you want to avoid it, listen to this one. And
if you want to do both, please do.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
In case you missed it, you need to get rid
of your black Spachelor in the bin.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Like, what do you mean watch black Plastic Dispatchela. If
you've got it, then in the kitchen.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Sorry, hold way, I don't know where you keep your Spachelor.
Maybe it's in your bedside table because of what you
like to.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Just a bit say spatually. You mean like the thing
you cook, like.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Your eggs?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Are you high?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I have a metal one?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
This is probably because is that black? Jesse?
Speaker 4 (02:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
But does that make me better than people with black one?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Sorry? You mean the black plastic spatula that we all
do our fried eggs and stuff with.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Not all, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm sorry, Miya. So are we clear on what its
bachelor is and where it's kept? Jesse? Are we clear
on what black is? Can I continue? Please? Continue?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'm sorry, Miya, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
The reason you have to get rid of your black
plastics bachelor in your kitchen or your bedroom, sorry it
is is because it's probably leeching chemicals into your cooking oil.
Oh that's not ideal, which also might be in your bedroom.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I don't know whole Well, it's about, isn't it about?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It reacts with heat, so Polly's using it in the bedroom.
It's reacting with Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
It's lay now that you've shown it to me, I
have that spatula that exact spatchelor. So there was an
article in the Atlantic couple of days ago which I
screenshot and put in my family group chat saying, everyone
throw out your black bachelors immediately, and I was immediately
trolled by my children.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Jesse was still busy googling what black is.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
But because I often tell them things right about carcinogens,
which are cancer causing chemicals and are found in certain products,
and sometimes there are certain foods that in high quantities.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Are linked to health anxiety or is this like legit
it's looking after other people. Yes, so my kids when
they want to troll me, they just send photos of
themselves eating salami. Yum, salami.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Stop it, don't eat salami.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I don't understand the science, right, I read this whole article.
Ye don't understand.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Don't need So what I need.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Is a headline, which is We're thrown out our black spachelors.
There is another headline, Holly, which is keep cups also
really good. We love keep cups for the environment, but
also because if you've got a hot coffee with a
black plastic lid, also leaching the chemicals.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
What is it the black that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yes, if that is green, is it okay?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I think so?
Speaker 4 (04:17):
So black silicon could be different about plastic, but I
will get that under advisement and I will come back
to you.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I just need someone to write a list of what
to throw out.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
What am I supposed to use instead of my cooking utensils?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
No, that's bad metal on your metal pans?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Scratch, No, so you would, I don't know. I use
a wooden spoon.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Spoon.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You can also get wooden. Like wooden, you can get
with loud.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Jump in the outludders group and just link us to
a spatialize.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I'm not going to tell you what you should use.
I'm just going to tell you what you need to
stop using.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's above my pay grade telling you what cooking utensils
you should use. I'm just going to read you this
one thing right instead of me just telling you it.
Cooking with any plastic is a dubious enterprise because he
encourages potentially harmful plastic compounds to migrate out of the
polymers and potentially into the food. But as Andrew Turner,
a biochemist at the University of Limuth, recently said, black
(05:11):
plastic is particularly crucial to avoid. Oh shit, do you
No one else is not great? Black plastic Sushi trays.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Just don't sat.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Now, I'm just petrified of everything. I can't leave this
room in a moment.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Holly and May are gonna attempt to explain to me
why so many people, including out louders, are losing their
shit over a sexy TV show and if you haven't
seen it, me neither. So I will be the voice
of reason.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Me out loud.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is going to be marvelous.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Jesse doesn't really want me to talk about Rivals, and
I get it because, just a little behind the scenes,
when we decide whether or not we're going to talk
about a TV show on out Loud, we always very
much like prosecute with each other whether everybody really is
watching this or whether it feels like in our world.
Because in my world it feels like everybody is watching Rivals.
I think it's the most popular recommendation I've ever given.
(06:18):
Mia and I were out and about last night and
people literally stopped me on the street to say Rivals.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So it's like very and my argument is always that
if you haven't watched the show, there's nothing work. Have
you ever been like a dinner party and ring that
TV show? And then they talk about it and they're like,
evenly need to and I'm just like, this is boring
for me that person.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So the way I convinced Jesse because I was like,
everyone's watching it, Jesse, and She's like, no, only Hollies
are watching it. And I was like, Okay, then let's
say it's making an important cultural statement about the world
right now. Am I allowed to talk about it then?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And you said.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, I was in And then I just quietly mentioned
all the bonking anyway. Bonking is a very specific, intentional
word here for the kind of sex that's on display
on Rivals right. Rivals is a TV show on Disney
Plus based on famous Jilly Cooper novels of the nineteen eighties,
and the sex in it very specific kind of sex
(07:11):
in that there's a lot of it. Everybody is sleeping
with everybody within minutes. Are all her books? Just put
Jilly Cooper in context. I've heard her books described as bonkbusters. Yes,
are they all bonkbusters? They are all bonkbusters. So in
the nineteen eighties, there was Jilly Cooper, there was Jackie Collins,
there was Judith Krantz. There was a couple of others
female authors who were writing what were also often called
(07:32):
sex and shopping novels. They were very, very dismissed, and
for good reason. In lots of way like they are light,
there's no question about that. But with hindsight they are
also being seen as actually very smart social satire, and
Jilly Cooper is posh as right. This is her world,
the world being reflected here in Rivals, which is Tory
MP's living in their Cotswold stately homes, lords and ladies
(07:56):
and classes that play a lot that is Jilly Cooper's world.
But lots of people are clutching their pearls about why
everybody's so into Rivals. And I have a theory and
we'll get more to it in a minute, which is
partly because sex has become very serious right in the
way we discuss it, and for very good reason.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeap.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
You know, in recent times women love sex, but also
sex has been used as a weapon against us. It's
been disappointing us, it's been exhausting us, and we feel
like we're allowed to say all that for the first
time and talk about it. And it's very important, but
it's not a lot of fun. And sometimes sex is
just fun, and sometimes TV is just fun, and sometimes
(08:34):
culture just needs to be fun and maybe in the
world that we're living in right now, for all the
reasons we were just discussing and many more. What the
success of Rivals is showing us is that that first
for escapism is really at a very high pitch. I
think nobody wants this, and the success of that shows
another side of that too. It's just sort of silly,
you know, but this is a very specific kind of silly. Mia.
(08:57):
Why do you think everybody's loving Rivals?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I think you're spot on.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
I think it's the escapism in that you don't have
to think. There are no life lessons in Rivals. There's
no moralizing, no scolding. Because it's set in the eighties
at a television network, a sort of rural regional television network.
It was a simpler and yes, in many case worse,
but definitely simpler time. And I was reading something about it,
(09:25):
a review that said, to love Jilli Cooper's stories is
to be constantly aware of how amesh they are in
a particular time and place, one where racehorses were celebrities,
groping was standard, and everybody seemed to be in love
with Princess Diana. And then it also says In Jilli
Cooper's World, men conquer women's si, the sun shines perpetually
(09:46):
on gold Cotswold's mansions, Marie Bells in Bloom, and absolutely
everybody is down to fuck. There's like a remarkable lack
of angst. And that doesn't mean that you look at
like the groping scenes and the sexism, like my reaction
to it. I look at it, and I was around
for those times. I was young in the eighties, but
(10:08):
you know, I worked in restaurants and worked in workplaces
where sexual harassment happened.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And it's not that it's.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Like, oh, they were the good old days where you
could just get pinched on the bum and it was flirting.
I look at that and it makes me feel good
because I'm like, look how far we've come. But in
the actual show, apart from one scene in this, there's
not angst amongst the characters. The characters don't they angst,
but not about I don't want to say politically correct things,
(10:35):
because that's it just was a time when you didn't
question things, you just sort of accepted them.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It's hedonism, I think, And like I was reading this
analysis on it, and it was saying the people are happy,
which is really nice.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
There were less choices.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I can't believe I'm saying this, but like, there's a
whole bit where one of the main female characters who's
sleeping with her boss and everybody knows she's sleeping with
her boss, and then she's offered another job and she
just doesn't really have any angst about sleeping with her boss,
and no one else really has any angst for her.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
There are a lot of parallels in some ways between
the eighties and now, like because I was looking back,
being like, oh, it's less nihilistic, Like there's such nihilism now.
People feel this sort of depressive realism and this cynicism
that maybe we're really sick of seeing reflected back to us.
But I was reading like the eighties, when you really
think about it, nuclear war, Like people were terrified. It's
(11:29):
not like things were perfect.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And thatches Britain was a very difficult, dark place. Not
that you'd know that from watching Rival, No.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
But despite all of that, and I think there's some
truth to it, there was optimism even though people were
scared about the nuclear war stuff. You know, what was
happening in the US and Russia, and it was, you know,
Wake of Vold, all of that kind of stuff. There
was this sense of optimism and this sense of hedonism, which.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And also naivety Jesse because two things that struck me
watching this. Firstly was the lack of surgery. It was
cast really really well because people looked different in the
eighties and the nineties and even in the early two
thousands before everyone was having botox.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Feelers, perfect teeth.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
People looked differently, their bodies looked different, their faces looked different.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And they were all having sex regardless. They were all
having sex, not necessarily in real life, but in this show.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
And also people look different to each other. There wasn't
this homogenized beauty standard in quite the same way. But
because no one had phones and there was no internet,
things literally were more simple because you had access to
less information and the information of the world didn't intrude
on you every minute of every day.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I was reading quotes by Jilly Cooper and she said
life is quite short of joy, and I think sex
is heaven. And she's just like she really likes sex
like a lot, and she's very worried that the young
people aren't having sex anymore. She has all these theories
as to why they're not having sex, and her number
one theory is jogging, and she says that jogging is
really bad for people's sex life because the thing about
(13:00):
this show is that no one need to take it
up early. It was like everyone slept in. There's no alarms,
there's no green smoothies, No, there's no gh there's no exercise,
there's no protein, there's no like.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
There's also no pawn on taps. So if you horny,
then go find somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
There weren't vibrators really not to my knowledge, she.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Says, and she's gotten a bit of backlash for this
that Me Too took the fun out of sex, and
a few people have gone like, I think everyone can
agree that it was a really important revolution, but to
look at it and go sex can also be really fun.
And in novels and television since the Me Too movement,
sex has become it's like every sex scene has to
(13:39):
have the awkwardness and the body hair and the then
I scuttled out of the thing and there was seemen,
like just too much fucking detail that we've gone really
really deep and clinical on in this It's like she
was saying, you know, two people find each other and
then they hump for two and a half minutes and
they both orgasm at the same time, and it's like,
sometimes we just want our sex like that.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I also think that we always have to remember because
I think it's dangerous for us and for the enthusiasm
for this to be. And I know this isn't what
you're saying mere but to be read as like a
longing for a pre medio era. I don'noce it, right,
I really really don't. I think we also always need
to remember that like witnessing something and enjoying it isn't
endorsing it. So the fact that I love watching Rupert
(14:23):
Campbell Black, who's like the cat in this you know,
I'm enjoying watching him, does not mean that I think, oh,
of course he should just shove his hand up girl's skirts.
And of course I don't think that sexual assault is
very serious and of course like it's none of that.
It's just that like a mature recognition that you can
witness something and enjoy something and also have critical thought
about it that you don't necessarily need to apply to that.
(14:45):
Even though I'm loving rivals, I don't think even it
means that we should be lionizing Jilly Cooper. Like I
listened to Jilly Cooper on Elizabeth Day recently she did
How to Fail. It was a very unsatisfying experience because
in a modern world, you know, what we expect from
a podcast interview with an author is like lots of analysis,
lots of and Elizabeth Day kept trying to get her
(15:06):
to engage in that, and she just won't because that's
just not how she sees the world. For example, she
was talking about how she's always on a diet. She's
like nearly eighty, she's always on a diet, and so
Elizabeth Day was trying to like lead her into don't
you think that's because the culture has always told you
you're not good enough? And don't you think that's really sad?
And don't you think you like being so cruelty yourself
and don't think it's a terrible message. And Jilly Cooper's
(15:26):
just literally they're going, darling, I just don't want to
be fat. Like that's her world and her bubble, and
it doesn't mean that we should all applaud that and
be like, yes, we should all be like Jilly Cooper.
It's just like things can just be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
You know, I've been reading about how it's like this
really subtle form of satire without the commentary, because I
think we're used to being knocked over the head with messages.
So even in kids' books, you can't pick up a
kid's book without being like, and this is a message
about blah, which I think for some people is very American.
In fact, Baby Reindeer had a similar A lot of
(16:00):
people said a similar thing that because it was an
American it could deal with complexity and nuance in a
way where someone didn't get up and go and this
is what to take from this show. Yeah, sometimes it's
better to not have that.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Interestingly, though, and this will be interesting to see. I've
seen a lot of commentary that Rivals needs to do
well in America to get a second season green lit,
and it might not do well in America, yeah, because
it's a very high production value. The soundtrack is unbelievable.
But that kind of stuff costs a fortune and great cast,
very high production values, and whether or not it does
(16:33):
well in America, like this is why I'm desperate for
you to watch it, Jesse, because I need to know
what the hell you would make of it in the
same way I'm dying to know what an American would
make of it, like it's so different to everything else
that's on the TV right now. Well, thanks for the feedback.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Great, I'd love your feedback.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
What a gift.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Look, speaking of TV shows, I want to introduce a
new little mini segment called feedback is a gift, And
I have some feedback for the people in charge of
streaming networks, and it is this thank you to the
streamers who are still letting us binge.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
On our shows.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
What I'm really struggling with are my shows on streaming
that are dropping once a week because I can't remember
where they are or when they drop. So I've started
to watch all these shows. So they'll start by dropping
two or three. I'll watch those, I'll be like, this
is great, I want to watch more, and then it'll
be like next episodes in a week. I'm like, well,
(17:37):
that's great, as if I'm going to remember, so.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You forget, you forget about.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So I've half started six new shows.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
I can't find any of them. I've forgotten what half
of them are. I can't retain the plot from week
to week. I'm not happy. So that's my feedback.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I think you need to. I just want to be
in probably bring that to your psychologist, but I completely disagree.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, we dook.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
I really like it. I like looking forward to something.
I actually think it like there's like more momentum, and
all week I'm just like, can't wait, can't wait.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Home, not for a half hour show though, maybe for
an hour shot. Okay, okay, but I'm watching.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Disclaimer at the moment. Couldn't tell you when it drops.
I don't know how often it drops or how many
episodes today night. Yeah, but then I think they didn't
drop one for two weeks, like it's I'm just all
over the shop after.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
The break, the woman making very big money off young
men at schoolies Shocking or the most Consensual Environment for
Sex out loud As.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
If you want to listen to us every day of
the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.
Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
support us, and a big thank you to all our
current subscribers.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
They have to fill in two consent forms. They have
to bring ID so they've already ben have to think
about it a lot, and they're fully aware like this,
it's not a shock on the day I'm going to
feel there. They're aware they need to film there, and
it's in a controlled environment. You can't be drinking beforehand,
you can't have done drugs. So when you think of
a safe environment, it's the security on the door as well.
So it's sort of what about it is unsafe.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Australia is in the grips of a moral panic about
a woman named Bonnie Blue. Only Fans, barely legal boys
and schoolies. If this sounds vaguely familiar, that would be
because we had this discussion this time last year when
three Only Fans creators spoke on National TV about targeting
young men on schoolies, filming their consensual sex and then
(19:37):
profiting off it. This year, creator Bonnie Blue is going
to the Gold Coast alongside another high profile Only Fans
creator named Annie Knight. You interviewed Annie Night, didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You, ma'am?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I did for No Filter.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, really really interesting interview Night posted on TikTok. Bonnie
Blue and I are going to be pleasuring some barely
legal eighteen year olds and we are so excited meet
us there. We can't wait. The Adult Industry Choice Awards
has posted a statement on Instagram about these two women
that reads, we do not, don't or support behavior that
(20:10):
exploits young individuals, particularly those in the early stages of adulthood.
And they've said eighteen to twenties filming content that involves
young men or women who may not be fully developed
or aware of potential long term impacts crosses a line
that we as a community should be committed to avoiding.
This type of behavior is a violation of the values
and ethics that underpin a responsible and respectful adult industry.
(20:34):
They actually said that what they're doing makes a laughing
stock of the whole industry and it puts sex workers
and content creators in harm's way, And they announced that
they were stripping any individuals who do this kind of
thing of any accolades that they've given them. Harrison, what
kind of accolade? Well, if they've been given as the
Industry Choice Awards, if you've won an award their.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Life, give it back.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You've got to give it back.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So it's not like they get government grants or anything.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't think so. Harrison James, who is an activist
and a child sexual assault survivor wrote an article on
Muma Maya where he argued that these young men are
products of a society where mainstream pornography has conditioned them
to view all sexual experiences as a measure of status
and validation and a ticket to manhood, and he sees
(21:19):
this as exploiting teenage boys under the guise of content creation.
He said that in his own experience, these harmful narratives
made him believe that what he endured was part of
a sexual fantasy rather than a violation. So people might
suggest that if you're a young boy and you have
any sexual experience, whether coercion or exploitation, was involved with
(21:41):
an older woman, then that's a fantasy that's not illegal,
and hers for the boy, for the boys. So even
a lot of comments and he's said this about what
he's posted on Instagram, a lot of comments are like,
stop blocking them. This is every man's fantasy. And he's
saying that is really harmful if you're a young boy
who has been a victim of child sexual abuse, because
it really confuses your understanding of what happened.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Can we draw a slight line between child and eighteen
to twenty year olds get what he's saying, and I
think that's a really interesting point of view, and I'm
going to definitely read that and think about it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
But I just think that.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
Comparing eighteen year olds to children, or women sleeping with
eighteen year olds to women or men because it's children,
I just think that's a different conversation, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Because isn't one of the main things in this is
they have to show id that they are eighteen.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
They do, so they're not children.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But in James's defense, and also the age of consent
is sixteen, Yes, and she's only doing this for eighteen
and over correct.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yes, but they're the ones using the term barely legal,
so they're the ones who are throwing barely legal. They
have talked about freshies are real specific.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
So it's a marketing term.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It's a marketing term, and it's also about taking their virginity.
Both women have talked about their desire to take the
virginity of these young men and whether or not it's legal.
I think what those particular tis speak to is a
vulnerability and a difference in the power of someone who
has had no sexual experience at all and someone who
(23:19):
is saying I slept with thirty three people yesterday.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Okay, I listened to a little grab of podcast Into
with Bonnie Blue where she says that so this is
obviously part of her whole thing has made her very rich.
This is how a year rolls out. She goes to
a spring breaking Cancoon, then she comes to Schoolies in Australia,
then she goes and does fresh As Week in England.
She says, the cues can be eight hours long. So
(23:42):
the boys the met yep. So the men who were
queuing up to have sex with Bonnie Blue, and I
assume the others are signing release forms, waiting in line
for eight hours, showing their ID passing a sobriety test.
How are they being exploited? There is no other sex
that they would have at Schoolies Week that requires that
(24:04):
level of scrutiny and consent. They're not drunk in a bar.
They're not older women preying on boys in inverted comments
who are drunken bars. This is like a very intentional experience.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
So if this is presented, and let's be clear, this
is rage baiting, right.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Marketing, because she makes She said that in September she
made five hundred thousand pounds, which is nearly a million dollars,
so she is getting incredibly rich. If you look at
her Instagram, she appears like any other influencer you follow.
It's all just skink care and kittens and shopping, right,
and she's like, I'm rich, I like designer bags. It's
very aspirational. There isn't any sex on there. Then if
(24:44):
you go to her adult platforms, the way she describes
herself is I'm every wife's worst nightmare. I'm excellent, banter,
perky tits, juicy ass, blah blah blah.
Speaker 6 (24:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
The thing is, though, is that again I don't have
to approve of that or think that it's good for
the world, but these are adult people consenting to a
sexual experience.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
I think that the reason why there's such a moral
panic is because it's not illegal, right, Like we can
all agree what they're doing. No, no, no, but I think
it would be clearer. I mean, the term of barely
legal is like they're kind of purposely muddying well, the ethics,
And I think we're always going to have arguments about
the ethics of sex and consent, like more so than
ever in the last few years, and this is subverting
(25:29):
a lot of what we understand about sex because it's
the female who is older. She's twenty five and the
boys are eighteen. So even though the age gap isn't enormous,
someone's making money out of it and someone isn't. But
that's also the porn industry, right, except it's the other
way around. So the porn industry, we know people going
praying on barely legal women to get them into the
(25:51):
adult industry, and then it's often the men who are
making all the money off it, which is why only
fans has absolutely blown up. But we've looked at that
model and we don't feel good about it. Ethically. I
think it's that the model is now being replicated. But
with these women and what they're saying. I went deep
on both of their tiktoks and it says your sex
(26:14):
life will be downhill from here. This is your fantasy.
It's women presenting themselves as in service of men, and
it feels like it fits into this sort of male
in cell internet nobody.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
But it's and again I want to be really clear
that I'm not. It's not like I think, Yay, this
is the best thing ever, but it's the opposite of that,
because they are saying those things to those guys while
they are taking their money.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
They're taking their money, yes, but what they are presenting
themselves as. I'm not saying that every sex worker does this,
but they're presenting themselves as like men need to be
sexually serviced. And they will say that. They'll say, if
your husband cheats on you, it's because you're lazy and
you're not giving him what they want again, rage baiting,
and I am servicing your men. And like even with
the SCHOOLI thing, they're like, you know, when you finish,
(27:01):
finish wherever you want. Like they're playing up this female fantasy.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
I have a question. I have two questions. Actually, firstly,
does money change hands?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Well, the boys are oh no, no, they don't get paid, but.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
The girls don't get paid either, right, like get paid
for only fans exactly. So when you say it's the fantasy,
Holly's right, it's the fantasy of the people who pay
to watch it, which are men. Women aren't watching that,
so I understand what you're saying. You're saying that these
women are reinforcing the standard of porn which centers the
(27:33):
male experience, because that's who they're paying customers are and
that's what these.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Boys, they're replicating a fantasy.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah, okay, I understand that. But also people have said
to me, how would you feel because I'm going to
re replay I'm going to get Annie to tell us
a little bit about this and replay this interview in
no filter this week. But you know, I was having
a conversation with someone who said, well, how would you
feel if this was a male OnlyFans creator coming and
(28:04):
doing this with girls?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And I'm like, that's a different thing.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's not because there aren't the cultural historical power imbalances.
It's a reversal. It's kind of a little bit like
talking about reverse racism. It's like it's in a completely
different context. Women having sex with younger men do.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
What we're doing like with men, is we socialize them
to think that they should always want to have sex,
that it's a mark of their power and their masculinity, and.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
It just see its school is, like, that's what happens
at school.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Is But I feel like that's a bit defeatist and
limiting of men.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
The thing is, Jessee, right, I entirely agree with all
your culsory, but this is what I entirely agree with
your ethical feelings about it, Like do I look at
this and go like, yeah, yeah, I do, right, But honestly,
I don't get to police other people's fantasies and sex
lives when they are consenting adults. The only time that
this is deeply problematic is if consent is blurry. And
(29:05):
as I've said, most of the sex going on at
schoolies where people are under the influence of drugs and alcohol,
and you know, we've all seen those awful occasions when
you know people are filmed against their will and that
goes back like that stuff is deeply problematic. In my mind,
this is the least problematic of the sex that's happening
at schoolies because it's all above board, out on the table,
(29:26):
a very very clear exchange of service.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I think that the way whether or not I.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Think that those boys or those women boys, men should
want to do this is none of my business.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I think what's overlaid with this that I think people
are trying to say, and Harris and James is trying
to say, and I agree with him on this, is
we like to think that men cannot be sexually vulnerable,
or that men cannot be vulnerable in sexual dynamics.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I I don't agree with that, and that's not true.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, and so I think again, if it was reversed
and we go who's more sexually experienced and blah blah blah,
then I agree that it's different to an extent, But
I still think that a young man can be sexually exploited.
I also think the other reason I'm finding it icky
is that it's on the whole bad for women. I
keep thinking about the girls who are on schoolies like
(30:11):
Annie Knight and Bonnie Bloke, like it's school isn't for you, Yeah,
go go away, go home, Like school isn't for twenty
five year old sex workers. It's for a bunch of
young people, whether it's messy sex or whether it's when
I was eighteen.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Like TOOLI is too old for school.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And if the guy that I'm having, you know, a
one night stand with, was with a sex worker last night,
like in terms of the expectations that sets for me
and what sex that men might expect, you know, I
just think it's not Like again, it's not illegal. I
just think it's ethically dubious.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think it's depressing.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I agree that's all we've.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Got time for today, out louders, some of us, all
of us, a few of us, and Amelia might be
popping up in the next few days. We're going to
be giving you your regular show on Friday, of course,
for a whole dose of escapism. But until then, we
love you loads. Thanks to our fabulous team for helping
us on this big week, and we'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Bye bye Mayor have you ever thought about a buzz cut?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I have cut my hair really really short on a
number of occasions I've seen one time, I also bleached
it white, so I looked like the eightieth pop star.
Yeahs okay, Well, always up after that haircut.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
If you need a break from the US election, you
need some escapism and you want to talk about hair,
well let me tell you. Holly and Vernon and I
had a fascinating conversation about hair and what it means
for women, and it was based off Holly was listening
to a fascinating podcast with Elizabeth Gilbert, who talked about
the realization of the epiphany she had that made her
(31:45):
shave her head and how much sort of hair cuts,
what we choose to do with our hair changes our identity.
Here's a snake peek.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
I always heard that there's no other feeling than feeling
wind on the back of your hair, and I'm like,
I want to experience that so badly. But I think
people associate a personality to your hair, like they automatically
assume he were. And I know this because I think
it was three or four years ago. Now, do you
remember when I went blue?
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (32:12):
What did I do when I went blue? Because I
was still dating at the time, and I remember at
least five or six men who would always swipe left
on me on the dating app swipe right. Oh, and
I remember thinking, they assume a personality to this hairstyle.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
What do you think they were assuming? I think it's
like if you want to listen to the rest, there
is a link in our show.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Notes shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description
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