August 27, 2025 • 40 mins
ICYMI (SERIOUSLY, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?) Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are engaged. Jessie, Amelia and Holly are joined by a very special guest, MMOL official Taylor Swift correspondent Mia Freedman to decode the whole shebang. And when we say 'are joined', it was more of a forced entry situation.
And, we discuss Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's announcement, that Australia has cut diplomatic ties with Iran over the antisemitic attacks in Sydney and Melbourne. Amelia unpacks exactly what this all means.
Plus, Kim Kardashian's daughter North West is 12. She wore an outfit. The internet lost its mind. We’ve got some thoughts, and they’re not for the pearl clutchers.
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Remember The Singles Conversation? Jessie Has An Apology
- Listen: People Are Being Weird About The Serena Williams Weight Loss Ad
- Listen: A Tiny Violin For A Well-Endowed Man
- Listen: The Third Wheel That's Ruining My Relationship
- Listen: How Was This Ever Broadcast On TV?
- Listen: And Just Like That... It's Over
- Listen: The Romance Effect: Why We're All Obsessed With Love Stories
- Listen: The Dating Experience Women Keep Having
- Listen: Taylor Swift & Why Her Boyfriend's Podcast
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- 'I'd never cared about Taylor Swift's love life. One moment just changed my mind.'
- All the hidden meanings in Taylor Swift's engagement announcement you might've missed.
- The clues that prove Blake and Taylor's friendship fallout is worse than we thought.
- Kim Kardashian tried to stop the most sickening thing Kanye West has done so far.
- North West, Kim Kardashian and the brutal reality of having famous parents.
THE END BITS:
Check out our merch at MamamiaOutLoud.com
Mamamia studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton
GET IN TOUCH:
Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au
Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message.
Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.
Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
MoMA Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about
on Wednesday, the twenty seventh of August.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
It's a hard day to put the show together, isn't it, Hallywayen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Right, it really is. I am Holly Wayne Right.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester and friends.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today little girls everywhere got a reminder on blast that
no matter what greatness you achieve in your life, nothing
will be more celebrated than the moment a man choose.
Oh Holly, come on, is that notthing? Sorry, let me buffer,
let me try that again, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Squire.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Taylor Swift and Travis Kelc a engaged twenty five exclamation marks.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Woot.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Of course, we've been up since dawn curating all the
hot takes for you. If only Infamous Swifty Mia Friedman
was here for this historic man I'd.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
See only we unpacked the shocking news from Canberra about
state sanctioned terrorism in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And Northwest went out for a lovely dinner with her
mother Kim Kardashian in Rome.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
But all anyone can talk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
About is what North chose to wear and how it's
all Kim's fault.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
But first, people, Taylor Swift is getting married. It's a
love story. And she said, yes, Etta, I thought we've
got rid of you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
That might be Taylor's sweating dress.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
What you're wearing.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Because this to her concert. And I actually thought that
this was like an NFL jersey. Apparently it's baseball.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I think it's ice hockey. Yeah, some kind of hockey
is thing.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Ladies and the very few gentlemen want me. Hello, she
was gonna sit this in. You didn't even know.
Speaker 6 (02:06):
Happy Taylor Engagement Day for those who celebrate you and
me pretty.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Much how she feel, not really me? This morning at
three a high school. This morning, at three am Eastern
Standard time, an Instagram post appeared on the accounts of
both Taylor Swift and someone called Killer Trav. The imagery
is peak flower arch and amid the blooms stands Taylor
Swift with American Football's titust end Travis Kelcey kneeling before
(02:35):
her as he should, with four other gorgeously smiling kissy
pictures to follow. And the caption that simply reads, your
English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married Stick
of dynamite and the world imploded.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Go Maya, how do you feel today?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I feel good. I knew.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
I'm not surprised. I knew this was happening.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
I think it is a good thing. I always thought
they were endgame. Really yeah, yeah, I think they are
so perfectly suited. And if there was ever any doubt
I think it was very much locked and loaded when
they rolled out formally rolled out there. I don't want
to say brand because that sounds cynical. They rolled out
themselves as a couple on the podcast a couple of
(03:16):
weeks ago, on the Kelsey Brothers podcast, and I looked
at it and I just thought, oh, they are so perfect.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
And what did you think of the actual announcement? She
appears to be in a forest. I mean it is
in August, which is allegedly a song that hard.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Does anyone know what the stick of dynamite?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
I know what it means? Oh good, TNT Travis.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And Taylor, Yeah yeah, yeah, Travis and Taylor give us
an analysis of that.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're in the flowers.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Yeah, so the thing to understand I have a friend
who is a swiftie who has never liked Travis for
Taylor and has always thought that he was too basic,
too much of a buffhead. The thing about Travis and
the reason that I think he's so perfect for her
on so many levels, the most important thing is how
much they've got in common. I mean, as he said
(04:05):
on the podcast, they're both stadium entertainers. Now, who else
in the world can really understand what that's like. A
few people, not many people we've played.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think we can call it of those places state.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
So they're both incredibly successful and competitive in their own fields.
They're not in the same field, which is interesting, and
she's obviously on a whole other level. But family is
incredibly important to both of them.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
And they're both daggy.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
And I say that with the greatest respect and affection,
because Taylor has always been a bit cringe and cheese
and she's owned that like that's part of her charm.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I always remember, after what we believed to be their
first date, or the first public date, because their first
date may have been before that, when she went to
see him play football. He took her for a ride
afterwards in his convertible. Do you remember this detail? And
on the roof of the convertible it has the stars
because he wanted a reminder to always reach for them. Now,
if that's Taylor coded, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
They're both very earnest in their way, but also very goofy,
Like she's always really embraced the daggy dancing.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
She's not she's not Beyonce, she's not incredibly slip.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
She's very relatable and so is he today as everybody's
losing their minds. There's lots of narrative that you know,
I have a problem with, but we'll get to that later.
That Like, we've seen her through all these relationships that
weren't right and this is the right one. Do you
think that the tortured poets, all that stuff, all those
bad boys she was dating, all the ones who wanted
to go under the radar, or do you think she
was pretending or do you think she's evolved into this
(05:33):
version of herself. Like I don't mean pretending for the audience,
I mean you know how sometimes you bury bits of
yourself in relationships. So what you're saying is they're perfect
for each other because they meet each other in ambition
and she yeah, and like all American dagginess. Do you
think that's who she's always been? But she was trying
to convince herself, Oh no, I'm like, I'm more Maddy. Heally,
I'm more.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 6 (05:54):
I think that we all visit different versions of ourselves
depending on I don't know if guys do this, but
I know I did it depending on who I've dated.
And I think that the most important thing about Travis
is that for the first time since I've she hasn't
had to dim her light because she hasn't had to
(06:15):
worry about emasculating a man. And I completely understand, you know,
Joe awhen which was a really formative relationship for her,
And certainly thank you Joe for some amazing music, even
to Jake Gillenhole, Harry Styles, all of those we got
John Maye, We've got some great music Travis, because she's happy,
you know, he's so high School's probably not Taylor's best
but as someone who thinks she's an amazing artist, but
(06:38):
she's also just a person, She's also just a woman who's.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
What's around my age. There are some concerns in the
office by single girls that they're going, I don't want
an album about a joint mortgage. I don't want an
album about yeah, you know, little petty fights. Like hasn't
her best music been during those tumultuous years. But I
think that two thousand and eight Love Story came out,
(07:00):
which was for the basic among us, that was kind
of when Taylor Swift burst onto the scene. That was
the year that I graduated high school. It was everywhere.
It was Romeo and Juliet, and it's her coming out
just basically professing her position as a hopeless romantic, which
kind of wasn't the vibe then. And she was a
very earnest millennial figure, right, And so to watch her now,
(07:22):
seventeen years later, having finally it feels like there's this
arc or this plot that's very I don't know, I
feel like we have been rooting for her and she
had these really low moments with the awful Jake Jillenhole.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
You're upsetting me, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
What I think you're saying here, which is something that
I've been feeling today. For millennials, this is the end
of an arc. It's the end of an era. And
I know that Holly will tell us that the happy
ending is the whole rest of your life, and that
that's the work in progress. But for millennials in particular,
it does feel like this is the moment that we
see the culmination of our youth.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And we all know the feeling of watching a friend
who has dated total duds and has had really difficult
moments finding their person.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
And I will lie you upset. I just think that's
a lovely thing.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Why are you reigning on.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Taylor's pat I don't want to rain on her parade.
I'm very happy for her, But I want to say
to all the single girls crying in their lattes this morning,
and there are some, there are some in this office
who are like, fuck another fucking happy couple, Like here
we go. This isn't the ending of anything. Weddings and
engagements are not the endings of anything. There's no happy ending.
Almost done, now, well done, dusting her hands. Ask anyone
(08:30):
who's been married for more than five minutes if the
wedding and the marriage is the end. There is a
lot to go. Taylor's got a lot of life left
to live. We all know people whose marriages didn't work out,
So let's not get too caught up in the happy
ending of it.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
That's romantic.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
She's not up here for me, not someone who's ever
been like I need a man to complete me.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Like.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I don't think there's anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Isn't every single one of her songs about that?
Speaker 6 (08:55):
No? I think that looking for great love is not
retro or something to be embarrassed about or ashamed about.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
But it doesn't have to define you, Like she's been
very clear that, Yeah, she's pretty complete.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
Her own, and she's got goals to kick, and she's
kicked all all of the ones that you can think of,
and she continues to kick more.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And what she always wanted, like even from that two
thousand and eight thing, which which I don't relate with
but I respect, is a loud love. She wanted someone
who professed their love for her and this, yeah, Travis
is loud live.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But me, I do have to say that her greatest
music has been about looking for love. Are you worried
that her music now is going to suffer with happiness?
Speaker 6 (09:35):
No, because what we saw with Folklore and Evermore and
she said she's going to do this again. Not with
Life of a Show God, because that's about behind the
scenes of when she was doing the ears tool, but
she said with those two albums she really enjoyed writing
songs from the perspective of characters, and that was the
first time she'd done that because you know, before that
she'd always mind her life and often her love life.
But some of her greatest songs are about being betrayed
(09:57):
in business, you know as well and being betrayed. You know.
The whole Reputation album was extraordinary, and that wasn't about love.
That was about being canceled.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Can I ask you Mia as a resident you know,
obviously swifty but also pr expert.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Oh tree Pain, Big day for tree Pain.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
One of the things that marks this relationship very much,
as we've already touched on, is how public it is.
It's very public, this relationship and this engagement announcement is
very public. The way that it was said it was
for the fans, like the English teacher and the gym teacher.
It's gorgeous, but it's for the fans. Right, what's the
wedding going to be? Like, I am obsessed now about it.
This is a royal wedding. This is America's royal wedding,
(10:35):
and I am now obsessed that maybe they should lean
into that and down the streets of Kansas City. We
should have an open topped rainbow carriage pulled by unicorns,
and all the girls and the gays can be out
applauding it. That would be brilliant. Donald Trump has made
a stake.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
A lot of fans are saying, I'll buy tickets. They
went to the Eras tour. This is their Eras tour.
They'll watch well they get married at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Is it possible to have a private wedding if you're
the most famous woman in the world.
Speaker 6 (11:05):
I think so, because when Taylor Swift wants to disappear,
she disappears, knows how to disappear.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
She's disappeared for years at a time.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
So I think that sharing this with the world is
lovely and it's in large part of service to her fans,
who were very, very invested. But she has always done
things on her terms. I don't think we should be
worried about her.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I must say.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
Part of me was like, oh, we should have kept
this private, But then I'm like why, like for the
first time she's with someone who's not emasculated, or like, oh,
we mustn't be seen together on a red carpet. We
mustn't be seen in public, Like for six or seven
years with Joe Alvin, she had to hide, she had
to like sneak in and out.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
Of cars, and like, how would that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
There's a theory which I think you'll really like that
the announcement was a homage to tree pain because she
was surrounded by train trees.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
See.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
I loved that.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
I think about your proposal, Jesse, because I had a
friend who's like, he was wearing shorts and loafers with
new socks and ooh and yuck, And.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I was like, is that about that?
Speaker 6 (12:04):
You know what your betrothed was wearing when he proposed
to you, what you were wearing. None of that matters,
None of it matters.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
And there was something.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Really daggy about it in the most over the top way,
of course, which I absolutely loved, which made it feel
very real to me.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They're a world in which, you know how you said,
Taylor does everything on her terms, and we all know
that she loves to trick us, Queen of the missed direction.
Is it possible that they're already married?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
No, but I do think this happened a couple of
weeks ago like, I think that there's been time. I
don't think it happened yesterday.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And there were hints over the weekend, quotes from Travis
Kelsey's parents that suggested they knew.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Oh yeah, absolutely, I think you know, just like with
your proposal, there were people around them that were clued in,
and I'm sure Tree knew.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Theory among just the Out Loud team is that Travis
Kelcey did ask Tree pain one hundred percent Taylor's.
Speaker 6 (12:56):
For Scott, her father, he would have had to go
and ask Tree and fair enough.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
One more tidbit I need to share, please, Blake Lively
has not at the time of recording lying to the post.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I'm very upset about that.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
And what does that tell us?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
No, I just think she's not going to be made
of honor.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
I think it's messy.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
I think that we all have friendships that we've left
behind for various reasons, usually not as high profile as
lawsuits and things like that, but we all do. And
it's kind of a bittersweet when someone that you were
super close to has this life milestone, whether it's a
happy one like this or a sad one like losing
a parent, you sort of feel like you should reach out.
(13:32):
Just because she didn't like it on Instagram does not
mean she didn't necessarily text. But I think probably her
number is blocked. I think Tree would have seen to that.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Guys, there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
There's the ring, There's whether or not she was surprised,
There's a lot.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Of There was the nearly twelve months ago to the day,
there was a leaked breakup plan, which was a big
topic of discussion, and I just want to go back
to that, revisit what we said.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
And there are a lot of clues.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
I've been diving deeper. We shocked to hear about a
lot of clues. The Swifties have done their work, and
there are a lot of clues in the announcement, in
the photo. There's a lot still to talk about. So
I'm sure you've probably got other topics to talk about.
I don't know what they are, sure they'll be great.
I don't really want to talk about anything else today, Okay,
So I think I'll excuse myself and go do some
more research and maybe see you in a subs episode.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Oh my god, I that would be amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Sounds good.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I have one more thing to say about the announcement
Kill a Trav.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
So the first thing I thought I won't.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I checked Instagram because that's how it goes, and I
saw kill a Trav and I went home follow Killer Trav.
Who the hell is that she can't marry kill a Trap?
He has to change his Instagram handle and then maybe
she will follow him, because she still doesn't follow him
on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Change it to Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
It just screams he made it when he was twelve,
didn't realize he'd become so famoure. Now he's marrying Taylor
Swift and he is Killer Trav on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I'm horrified over to a different kind of Royalty. I
have generously been given one whole minute. This is very
troubling for me to bring you up to speed on
what's been happening in princess business this week. Okay, which,
to be honest, since this week one of my tailors,
Megan Markle, launched an show and did a whole, big,
(15:11):
long form interview. This is very cruel, but I understand
we've been usurped by the way at Royalty. So here's
my quick rundown of what's been happening in Princess business
this week? Season two as ever, Sorry with love, Megan,
Why isn't it called the same thing? It's bad for?
Brand has dropped? And what's weird about it? Considering that
(15:31):
season one we had to sit through lots of people
we've never met before making candles, is that this season
it's got cred right. Episode one has got David Chang
on it. Now, you might not know who he is
Jesse because you don't like food, but here is a
big deal. He's the momo fuku guy. He is a
big deal.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Is he the one who makes a lobster? I've seen
a clip no no no.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Episode two has Chrissy Tagan and episode eight with the lobster,
that's jose Andres. He is massively famous and he's the
founder of World Central Kitchen. Like he is a massive deal.
So why did she keep all the good people for
the second season? I am very confused about that. Same day,
Meg sits down for a long form interview with Bloomberg
Emily Chang in a bookstore. Presumably this is where she
(16:13):
chose to be interviewed in a bookstore. You like books,
says Emily Chang, looking around. What are you reading right now?
Reading says Megan. Oh, I read to my kids. I
read self help, but mostly Emily. She says this, and
then my late.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Night indulgence now is just a lot of duolingo?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Do you ever do know?
Speaker 5 (16:31):
That's great when I could find the time. What are
you do olingoing? I'm dual lingering French.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, I committed to relearning it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And so yeah, me too, megs me too. As you know,
I'm naturally we are basically the same person. Meanwhile, over
in that place that Megan's not allowed to go to anymore,
Princess Catherine got the world momentarily obsessed with the fact
that she had dyed her hair blonde. Now, I can't
really explain to you how I know, deep in my
(17:00):
soul she did not dye her hair blonde. Princess Catherine
is no more allowed to dye her hair blonde than
she is to pick her undie's out of her But.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I saw those pictures of her in the limousine or something,
and they think that it's blonde.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Is it just light the lighting?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's a pat picture right through a car window that
looks like she's gone proper blonde blonde. But a strategic
leak has already been placed with the Daily Mail that says,
this is just yacht tad. She has spent the summer
in Greece and she's slowly been lightning her brown from
chestnut to more caramelli and there's just a bit of
(17:38):
summer sun on it. And that is worth a thousand headlines?
Did I do well on my princess update? I updated
very well.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
You missed the part where I saw that Meghan got
gifted by Harry the big portrait.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, on her Instagram today, a big black and white
portrait of her laying in a field with her dog.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I think it might be her late dog.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
One more thing too. You missed something else We learned
from the season two of this TV show that for
Harry's fortieth birthday had hats printed that said P forty
for his friends to wear. I just want to emphasize
to you that that means that they ask their friends
to call him Prince Harry.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
PH Prince Harry. Look, if this was a different day,
if Taylor Swift had not made her announcement, we would
be talking for hours and you would be under sufferance
at me talking about that all of this Easter eggs
in the as Ever with Love Megan, So just count
yourself lucky that we're not doing that.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Now one's watching that season, Hollywayen right, No One.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
In a moment. A shocking announcement from the PM about
terrorist attacks on Australian soil. So yesterday we had some
shocking and pretty surprising news from Canberra. Prime Minister Anthony
Albanezi stood in the courtyard at Parliament House and he
pinned last year's anti Semitic attacks that happened in Melbourne
(18:59):
and in Sydney on a foreign power, and that foreign
power is Iran. The revelation hinges on intelligence from Australia
spy agencies. And the way that you know this is
a big deal is when the head of AZIO, the
super secret spy agency, actually comes out to talk to
the press, and that happened yesterday. His name is Mike Burgess.
He explained that the December attack on a Melbourne synagogue
(19:20):
and the October attack on Sydney's Lewis Continental Kitchen were
ordered by Iran. So he stressed that Iran themselves, Iranian diplomats,
didn't conduct these attacks. They likely engaged a third party
criminal organization to do them for them. I also want
to mention that Iran denies the allegations. Iran's Foreign minister
has said that there are dozens of synagogues in Iran
(19:42):
and it made zero sense for Iran to attack these
sites in Australia. But I do have to say that
these allegations are so extraordinary, so unusual, so out of
left field, that Alberesi and the Australian intelligence authorities had
to have been absolutely certain in what they said yesterday.
There would be no doubt when they announced this. So
(20:03):
let's hear what Alberanzi did have to say.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
These were extraordinary and dangerous ects of a Russian orchestrated
by a foreign nation on Australian soil. They were attempts
to undermine social cohesion and so discord in our community.
It is totally unacceptable and the Australian government is taking
strong and decisive action in response.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So in response, what has Albanezi done. He has expelled
Iran's ambassador to Australia. That hasn't happened since World War II,
and three other Iranian diplomats were photographed late last night
in a car fleeing the country. There's so much that
we still don't know about this story. There's so many
questions about it. But one unexpected development to come out
of it is that Iran and Israel, who has sworn enemies,
(20:51):
now agree on one thing, and that one thing is
they do not like Australia. Last week, Albanzi was sparring
with Benjamin Netanyahu, who's Israel's Prime minister and now Iran's
foreign minister, posted on x overnight that Netanya, who is
right about one thing, Australia's Prime minister, is indeed a
weak politician.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I bet that Albernezi is wishing he could change the subject.
I have one question why Australia, Like why would Iran
use Australia as a particular target for this.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's such a good question and I don't think we
know the answer. So Iran has been linked to terra
plots in other countries in the US and Mark, Belgium, Albania,
but the last big report on that activity came before
October seven, and as far as we know, as far
as I know, there hasn't been a direct specific link
made of this kind to terrorist activity in the West
since then.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Australia has the seventh largest Jewish population in the world,
so I mean it's significant, but it's it's not the largest, like,
and that's obviously outside of Israel. But reading all of
this and reading the details of you know, the text
messages and stuff they've got from the planning, what's remarkable
and so lucky is that no one was her Like,
(22:05):
there was someone hurt. Actually there was someone injured during
the arts and attack, And of course they're saying that
they think a few of the other targeted attacks on
Jewish businesses and stuff, Iran was behind that. But the
fact that no one was hurt is pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Just to use real layman's terms, and please correct me,
I mean yeah, but is that because not I mean,
not their lack of casualties, But is that because when
you say they didn't carry out these incidents, but they're
literally organizing and paying like petty criminals or organized.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Don't seem to have any really.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Like no deep affiliation, but to do this for them, Yeah,
and then how effective they are is kind of beyond
Iran's control. But what it certainly succeeds in doing is destabilizing.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, I think, Yeah, the funny thing is too that
Australia by some measures, has fallen behind other Western nations
in sanctioning Iran so quick. Bringing you up to speed
on many many years of irun in history is that
it has been ruled by this extremist religious regime since
nineteen seventy nine. Since its revolutions of Western countries have
(23:11):
taken steps to sanction and to punish that extremist religious regime.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
In various ways.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Australia has really been behind the rest of the park
in terms of doing that. So Albinizi just said that
he's going to sanction the Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corp. They're
kind of like the secret religious police there. But for instance,
the US and lots of other Western countries had already
said that that group was a terrorist organization. So it's
almost like by doing this, Iran's kind of goading Australia
(23:38):
into coming up to speed with the rest of the
West in sanctioning them.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's very odd, and what it did achieve was its
goal of terrorizing the Jewish community.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Like it said, it's horrific.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
There are just to know that these attacks were so
targeted and by a foreign power. I think is terrifying
and it continues to compromise social cohesion. There's an incredible
article by Kylie Moore Gilbert in the Sydney Morning Herald
in the Age where she right about she was.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Imprisoned in Iran.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
She's an Australian academic and she says that in twenty
twenty she was being interrogated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps
and they were presenting her with a paper with the
names and addresses of multiple synagogues in Melbourne and wanted information.
So what she's trying to say is that her, along
with lots of members of Iranian Diaspra, have been saying
(24:33):
for a long time these are really dangerous people, basically
call them a terrorist organization, and now Australia has come
to the table and kind of acknowledged just how dangerous
they are. This operation as well has been so interesting
because what Australia needed to do was get their diplomats
out of Iran before they did any of this to
keep everyone everyone safe. So yeah, we are just going
(24:55):
to learn a lot more about this in the coming
weeks and months after the break Northwest, the daughter of
Kim Kardashian and Kanye West went to dinner in a
corset and everyone is clutching their pearls.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Holly needs a moment to puff fish.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
of the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
This week, Northwest and her mother, Kim Kardashian were spotted
in Rome, having no doubt a very lovely meal. Paparazzi
pictures began to circulate, which North has been experiencing her
whole life, but this time the commentary was very different.
For context, North is twelve, She is the eldest of
Kim and Kanye's four kids. Kim and Kanye are divorced,
(25:53):
and she was wearing a black corset, a short skirt,
and chunky black boots, and the Internet swiftly decided that
this was not appropriate attire for child.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
The thing about twelve year.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Old girls, as someone who was once a very awkward
twelve year old girl knows, is that some still look
like kids, and others have begun to change. And you
have no control over that west And I hate to
even say this, but unfortunately it's important context. She falls
into the latter category, so she might look different in
(26:26):
a corset to how another twelve year old may look
in a corset. Comments started flooding in about how inappropriate
North's outfit was, reminding Kim that her daughter was only twelve,
which I'm sure she'd forgotten. One comment read not a
fan of a busty air on a twelve year old.
Another said it's Kim's job to preserve her daughter's innocence,
(26:47):
and another said why does North look thirty two? Then
there were others who argued it's literally not up to
Kim to shield her children from weirdos. It's up to
the general public to not be weird. Look, there are
a lot of places to go with this story, but
I'll tell you why these pictures captured my attention. Yesterday,
I was a young teen with boobs that I did
(27:08):
not want. I didn't know how to dress. I knew
that me wearing a white singlet wasn't read the same
as the girl next to me wearing a white singlet,
or the way.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
That it was read last year. When you're wearing a.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
White singlet exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And I can see now in hindsight how much my
mum must have struggled to not say anything. And I
remember fighting with her to buy a stunning brown singlet.
It was a crop top with white riding across the
chest that said naughty gal was from soup Prey. And
I suppose my question here is what is the role
of parents? And let's be real, it is always considered
(27:42):
the domain of mothers to police their daughter's bodies.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Holly, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
To try really hard not to get all high pitched
and screechy about this, because it is an absolute puffer
fish for me. I have had so many arguments about
this in general with people in my life. I wrote
a frickin' book about it. Largely, there is nothing that
irritates me more than people screaming stop sexualizing young girl
(28:09):
while they are sexualizing the young girls themselves by deciding
that once their body has changed, it is no longer
appropriate for them to wear certain things. Right. It is
so confusing for young kids, as you have already expressed, Jesse,
that there's this weird liminal time where you know, last
summer it was fine for you to run around in
a bikini and no one was bothered. And this summer
(28:32):
everybody's like, oh, could you cover up? And you can
read it like kids are not stupid, They're incredibly sensitive
to shame in particular, and they can pick it up
all around them that suddenly something that has happened to
them that has nothing to do with them. It wasn't
in their control, it wasn't their choice has changed everything,
and suddenly their body in clothes, in a bikini, in jeans,
(28:53):
in a crop top in of course, it is a
dangerous thing that needs to now be treated very differently,
And I just find it so infuriating that women in
particular buy into this and pile onto moments like this Northwest. Obviously,
she's not an ordinary twelve year old. Of course she's not.
But I've lived through this, right, and I have a
(29:14):
fifteen year old daughter, and I'm around a lot of
girls of those ages. Walk into a Brandy Melville, walk
into a soup prey, walk into any shop, and you
will see young girls who are ordinary in terms of
you know, their background whatever, who want to dress this
way corsets, crop tops, tight little shirts with big, baggy
jeans or little raw raskirts are what a lot of
(29:36):
girls this age want to wear. The only difference with
what Northwest is doing is that hers have designer labels
on them, and hers get photographed by the entire world
and sent around for everybody to pick up and judge.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
That is not the only difference between.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Them in this instance.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It is is Kim Kardashian. We cannot discuss this in isolation.
Kim Kardashian. Now, I'm not making any kind of comment
on her as a mother. She's going through a lot
with a very very difficult ex husband who is also
dealing with mental health challenges. So I'm setting that aside
and saying that Kim Ashing from a very early age,
(30:11):
was sexualized by her own mother, and you're acting like
that's not common.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Because I don't believe in it. Because I really don't
believe that Northwest is being sexualized. That is my thing
is that I think that it's And I don't want
to get personal, either about myself or anybody else in this,
but it's very easy in all areas of parenting before
you've got there to go like I would never I
have never let my daughter.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
My favorite pastime is talking about parenting stages I'm yet
to reach, and the various rules that I will impose
at that stage, Just like when I was pregnant, I
said I would never use screens screen.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Have you met a tween? Have you met a particularly
precocious tween? Have you tried to make them do things
they don't want to do? Things they don't want to?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Say that what I'm doing is parent shaming. I'm saying
that there is context here that her mother's rise to
fame came from. And I'm not going to sugarcoat this
a sex tape that some people believe that is credibly
believed her mother had a hand in release.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Well, it's kind of an empire built on sexualization, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Is that your point?
Speaker 6 (31:13):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
You genuinely think that the reason Northwest is wearing that course,
it has nothing to do with what twelve year old
girls are wearing in the suburbs of Sydney. Everything to
do with.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
This podcast about the fact that two things can be true.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I reject it. I thoroughly reject.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Okay, okay, I reckon that there are two things going
on right because, on the one hand, I think we
are in a moment of cultural reckoning of giving children
any sort of public platform, and North challenges that. For
a lot of people, North, as a twelve year old,
is all over TikTok. North has been put on a
(31:51):
song by her father, who in March, by the way,
came out and basically went, I'm so uncomfortable that my
daughters are wearing perfume and the clothes that they're wearing,
and they're wearing lipstick and blah blah blah. My puffer
fish is men who are not involved in parenting sitting
on the sidelines criticizing the mother.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
That's my puffer fish.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
But my point about that is that I think that
there is a growing discomfort about having young kids in
the spotlight. And Kanye just recently put Northwest on a
song with convicted sex felon PDDY exactly right. So there's
(32:29):
a big discussion that I think it's probably playing into
that a little bit, which is who is protecting Northwest?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
But this is the thing is, I don't think that
is what anyone in the comments section is worried about,
because I think that what you think of Kim and
Kanye's parenting choices is one thing, right, And I entirely
agree with you about whether or not it's in any
way healthy for a twelve year old to have the
kind of plantchion platform that Northwest does. We are talking
specifically here about clothes, and the reason that it is
(32:56):
a pufferfish and a trigger is because that is something
we all relate to. Is I know you're not there yet,
but this is something that will suddenly happen where your daughter,
as I say, is wearing something that was fine for
her to six months ago, but suddenly they're like, how
could you let your daughter wear that? Okay, and so
what's the conversation you're going to hide?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I have an example. I don't want to make this
about our parenting choices, so I'm going to try and
step back and talk in more general terms about how
I felt recently when I saw a picture that made
me uncomfortable. I love the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, and I
love the Netflix documentary about them, which just finished its
second season. Highly recommend if you have not watched it,
because I'm now a super fan. I follow everything they do.
(33:37):
They had a summer camp and they invited six year
olds to come along and learn how to cheerlead with them,
which is great because it is an athletic endeavor that
involves a lot of artistry. And I applaud that there
were six year olds on the field wearing modified Dallas
Cowboys cheerleaders outfits. And they were modified in the sense
that the chierleaders were very I think it's safe to
(33:57):
say skimpy outfits. They have little extreme crop tops with
a bow over the cleavage, and these six year olds
were wearing T shirts printed with that bow and the
little bedazzled jacket that they wear on top of it.
And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't made
uncomfortable by that. Now, does that mean that I am
sexualizing the six year olds? Maybe? Maybe it's my problem,
(34:19):
but I felt uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I think there is a world of difference between a commercialized,
systematic kind of this is what the young girls who
dance have to look like. It's one of the reasons
why I genuinely was uncomfortable about my daughter and never
doing dancing is because there's no choice there. It's like
from six Lipstick Hair Foundation.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
You just described it as a commercialized, systematic operation that is.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
The Kardashian no. But what they have always buughted the boundaries,
because I agree with you about that those pictures of
Dallas cowboy cheerleader's made me really uncomfortable, right, But my
argument about why Northwest is being shamed for wearing a
corset is to me a completely separated well.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
The irony of the corset, and in fact the irony
of the six year olds with the cheerleading as well,
is that they're just imitating what the older women in
their lives are doing. So if you look at the
picture of Kim and north not is just dress like Kim,
And it's like, how do you explain to a twelve
year old that their body is more sexualized than the
body of an adult woman, that you will never be
(35:16):
as sexualized as the moment you have curves.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
I just wanted to bring to you both something that
I've been thinking about a lot lately about clothing. I
love buying second hand clothes, and I especially love calling
them vintage because it makes it some more fancy. In fact,
I'm wearing a great top I got at Finney's today,
and you told me that you got yours.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
At I think it was deep hop or it could
have been like a Red Cross store.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I'm wondering why you look like Sienna Miller.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
But the one thing that really trips me up in
buying secondhand and even an extending the life span of
my existing clothes is stains. Because you get a stain
and then you think I don't really want to wear
that anymore, You get self conscious, you think I've got
to take it to the dry cleaner. It goes in
a pile of clothes for the dry cleaner, which of
course never actually leaves your sofa or the chair in
your bedroom that you have designated for the dry cleaner.
So there's this real stigma around clothing stage. I think
(36:06):
that's safe to say. And there's a substacker called Isabelle
Slow who wrote recently that we all just need to
get over the stain problem.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Couldn't agree there.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
She wrote a piece called on Loving My Clothes with
stains and Holes, and she talks about trying to actively
shift her mindset when it comes to imperfections in her clothing.
She says, a stain can end the life cycle of
a clothing item just too early, like you might still
love it. I think about the fact that I used
to love wearing silk shirts to work, and then I
realized that they all had awful yellow stains underneath them,
(36:36):
and then I just never wore them again.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I struggle with silk and sweating. I find that my
sweat I'm like, is my sweat different? Because I feel
like I ruin every the issues. I don't know how
to wash silk, which is a whole other thing no
one does.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And you mentioned gently agitate, but who is very complex?
And think about all those little silk worms who work
so hard for these things, and then we're just discarding them.
So here's a proposal. What if we decide that stain's
a character, that they're kind of cool, and look, we
do this with other items. Think about the Burken bag,
the famous Umez Birken bag. They retail for tens of
(37:08):
thousands of dollars. It's named after this French style icon
named Jane Burkin. And the whole point of how she
used her bags is that she scuffed them, She wore
them to the ground, she puts stickers on them, she
stuffed bagets in them. And Kate Moss, who's another style icon,
was just recently seen on the beach with her burken
She took an eighteen thousand dollars bag to the beach
(37:29):
and put her beach towel in it.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
So that's a status symbol though, right though, that's kind
of like saying, I know this bag is really expensive,
but to me, it's just like the green bag, you
know from the supermarket.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
All you could say it's very sustainable of them. So
I want to say, let's stop being precious about the stains.
Let's stop do we judge people who have stains. No,
so let's accept that we can just wear the stains
and they're a sign of character and they're a sign
of age.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I think antique furniture like that has little stains on it,
and that's absolutely fine. I wear stains all the time
because my theory is no one's looking at you, no
one notices the things that you notice. They don't. And interestingly,
I went really deep on what you can and can't
donate recently. You can't donate a piece of clothing with
a stain on it, which is why so much of
(38:12):
it ends up in landfill and really good quality stuff,
which again they think is related to people don't know
how to wash their clothes anymore, like the skills of
our grandmothers, who could get a stain out of anything,
which you know was always baking, so like Vegga, I
don't know, they would do something and get the stain out.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
A lot of influencers who are obsessed with that stuff.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
I think we need to go back to like learning
how to wash our clothes, but also rock the stain.
Mayor Friedman would say, put a brooch over it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I want to know how many years is acceptable to
have a piece of clothing or something like that. I
put a thing in the Outlouders Facebook group on the
weekend about towels on a similar vein right. I wrote
that because I wanted some tips and I knew the
outluders would help me out about where to buy a
job lot of new towels, because I suddenly looked at
the towels in my bathroom and realized that they were
all quite rady, and that some of them, quite a
(39:03):
lot of them were older than my children. And that's
all right, well this is the thing. But they were tatty, okay,
and some of them, you know, they the thing anyway,
So the Outlouders were full of really great ideas. They
were like, go and buy them from game. Aren't they
really good? And fluffy blah blah blah blah. But several
of them said, let's normalize having tails older than our children.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And I feel the same about tea taels. I have
had tea tails for a very long time with holes
in them and burns on them, and I'm like it
just it shows all the years I've been slogging away cooking,
which is not what's happened.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
That's character.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I love it. And coffee steams. That is all we
have time for today. Out Loud is what a big day.
Thank you so much for listening to our show, and
thank you to our wonderful team for putting it together.
We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
And out Loud as we may have teased it, but
tomorrow we are going to drop a very special subscriber
episode all about Taylor's engagement. There was so much more
that we wanted to say. Maya is our very special guest.
She's wearing ridiculous out hit and if you're not a
swifty feeling a bit left out, then may I suggest
you go back. You listen to yesterday's subscriber episode where
(40:07):
I made an apology because it turns out that I'm
wrong all the time, and I said something on this
show that I swiftly regretted thanks to an out louder
who called me out. She's now come back and said,
thank you Jesse for your lovely apology, and I she's
my new best friend.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
We're always learning.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
We are always learning. A link to that is in
our show notes.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
MoMA Mia. Out loud what women are actually talking about
on Wednesday, the twenty seventh of August.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
It's a hard day to put the show together, isn't it, Hallywayen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Right, it really is. I am Holly Wayne Right.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester and friends.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today little girls everywhere got a reminder on blast that
no matter what greatness you achieve in your life, nothing
will be more celebrated than the moment a man choose.
Oh Holly, come on, is that notthing? Sorry, let me buffer,
let me try that again, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Squire.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Taylor Swift and Travis Kelc a engaged twenty five exclamation marks.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Woot.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Of course, we've been up since dawn curating all the
hot takes for you. If only Infamous Swifty Mia Friedman
was here for this historic man I'd.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
See only we unpacked the shocking news from Canberra about
state sanctioned terrorism in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And Northwest went out for a lovely dinner with her
mother Kim Kardashian in Rome.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
But all anyone can talk.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
About is what North chose to wear and how it's
all Kim's fault.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
But first, people, Taylor Swift is getting married. It's a
love story. And she said, yes, Etta, I thought we've
got rid of you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
That might be Taylor's sweating dress.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
What you're wearing.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Because this to her concert. And I actually thought that
this was like an NFL jersey. Apparently it's baseball.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I think it's ice hockey. Yeah, some kind of hockey
is thing.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Ladies and the very few gentlemen want me. Hello, she
was gonna sit this in. You didn't even know.
Speaker 6 (02:06):
Happy Taylor Engagement Day for those who celebrate you and
me pretty.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Much how she feel, not really me? This morning at
three a high school. This morning, at three am Eastern
Standard time, an Instagram post appeared on the accounts of
both Taylor Swift and someone called Killer Trav. The imagery
is peak flower arch and amid the blooms stands Taylor
Swift with American Football's titust end Travis Kelcey kneeling before
(02:35):
her as he should, with four other gorgeously smiling kissy
pictures to follow. And the caption that simply reads, your
English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married Stick
of dynamite and the world imploded.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Go Maya, how do you feel today?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I feel good. I knew.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
I'm not surprised. I knew this was happening.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
I think it is a good thing. I always thought
they were endgame. Really yeah, yeah, I think they are
so perfectly suited. And if there was ever any doubt
I think it was very much locked and loaded when
they rolled out formally rolled out there. I don't want
to say brand because that sounds cynical. They rolled out
themselves as a couple on the podcast a couple of
(03:16):
weeks ago, on the Kelsey Brothers podcast, and I looked
at it and I just thought, oh, they are so perfect.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
And what did you think of the actual announcement? She
appears to be in a forest. I mean it is
in August, which is allegedly a song that hard.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Does anyone know what the stick of dynamite?
Speaker 4 (03:32):
I know what it means? Oh good, TNT Travis.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And Taylor, Yeah yeah, yeah, Travis and Taylor give us
an analysis of that.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're in the flowers.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Yeah, so the thing to understand I have a friend
who is a swiftie who has never liked Travis for
Taylor and has always thought that he was too basic,
too much of a buffhead. The thing about Travis and
the reason that I think he's so perfect for her
on so many levels, the most important thing is how
much they've got in common. I mean, as he said
(04:05):
on the podcast, they're both stadium entertainers. Now, who else
in the world can really understand what that's like. A
few people, not many people we've played.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think we can call it of those places state.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
So they're both incredibly successful and competitive in their own fields.
They're not in the same field, which is interesting, and
she's obviously on a whole other level. But family is
incredibly important to both of them.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
And they're both daggy.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
And I say that with the greatest respect and affection,
because Taylor has always been a bit cringe and cheese
and she's owned that like that's part of her charm.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I always remember, after what we believed to be their
first date, or the first public date, because their first
date may have been before that, when she went to
see him play football. He took her for a ride
afterwards in his convertible. Do you remember this detail? And
on the roof of the convertible it has the stars
because he wanted a reminder to always reach for them. Now,
if that's Taylor coded, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
They're both very earnest in their way, but also very goofy,
Like she's always really embraced the daggy dancing.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
She's not she's not Beyonce, she's not incredibly slip.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
She's very relatable and so is he today as everybody's
losing their minds. There's lots of narrative that you know,
I have a problem with, but we'll get to that later.
That Like, we've seen her through all these relationships that
weren't right and this is the right one. Do you
think that the tortured poets, all that stuff, all those
bad boys she was dating, all the ones who wanted
to go under the radar, or do you think she
was pretending or do you think she's evolved into this
(05:33):
version of herself. Like I don't mean pretending for the audience,
I mean you know how sometimes you bury bits of
yourself in relationships. So what you're saying is they're perfect
for each other because they meet each other in ambition
and she yeah, and like all American dagginess. Do you
think that's who she's always been? But she was trying
to convince herself, Oh no, I'm like, I'm more Maddy. Heally,
I'm more.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 6 (05:54):
I think that we all visit different versions of ourselves
depending on I don't know if guys do this, but
I know I did it depending on who I've dated.
And I think that the most important thing about Travis
is that for the first time since I've she hasn't
had to dim her light because she hasn't had to
(06:15):
worry about emasculating a man. And I completely understand, you know,
Joe awhen which was a really formative relationship for her,
And certainly thank you Joe for some amazing music, even
to Jake Gillenhole, Harry Styles, all of those we got
John Maye, We've got some great music Travis, because she's happy,
you know, he's so high School's probably not Taylor's best
but as someone who thinks she's an amazing artist, but
(06:38):
she's also just a person, She's also just a woman who's.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
What's around my age. There are some concerns in the
office by single girls that they're going, I don't want
an album about a joint mortgage. I don't want an
album about yeah, you know, little petty fights. Like hasn't
her best music been during those tumultuous years. But I
think that two thousand and eight Love Story came out,
(07:00):
which was for the basic among us, that was kind
of when Taylor Swift burst onto the scene. That was
the year that I graduated high school. It was everywhere.
It was Romeo and Juliet, and it's her coming out
just basically professing her position as a hopeless romantic, which
kind of wasn't the vibe then. And she was a
very earnest millennial figure, right, And so to watch her now,
(07:22):
seventeen years later, having finally it feels like there's this
arc or this plot that's very I don't know, I
feel like we have been rooting for her and she
had these really low moments with the awful Jake Jillenhole.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
You're upsetting me, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
What I think you're saying here, which is something that
I've been feeling today. For millennials, this is the end
of an arc. It's the end of an era. And
I know that Holly will tell us that the happy
ending is the whole rest of your life, and that
that's the work in progress. But for millennials in particular,
it does feel like this is the moment that we
see the culmination of our youth.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And we all know the feeling of watching a friend
who has dated total duds and has had really difficult
moments finding their person.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
And I will lie you upset. I just think that's
a lovely thing.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Why are you reigning on.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Taylor's pat I don't want to rain on her parade.
I'm very happy for her, But I want to say
to all the single girls crying in their lattes this morning,
and there are some, there are some in this office
who are like, fuck another fucking happy couple, Like here
we go. This isn't the ending of anything. Weddings and
engagements are not the endings of anything. There's no happy ending.
Almost done, now, well done, dusting her hands. Ask anyone
(08:30):
who's been married for more than five minutes if the
wedding and the marriage is the end. There is a
lot to go. Taylor's got a lot of life left
to live. We all know people whose marriages didn't work out,
So let's not get too caught up in the happy
ending of it.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
That's romantic.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
She's not up here for me, not someone who's ever
been like I need a man to complete me.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Like.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I don't think there's anything wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Isn't every single one of her songs about that?
Speaker 6 (08:55):
No? I think that looking for great love is not
retro or something to be embarrassed about or ashamed about.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
But it doesn't have to define you, Like she's been
very clear that, Yeah, she's pretty complete.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
Her own, and she's got goals to kick, and she's
kicked all all of the ones that you can think of,
and she continues to kick more.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And what she always wanted, like even from that two
thousand and eight thing, which which I don't relate with
but I respect, is a loud love. She wanted someone
who professed their love for her and this, yeah, Travis
is loud live.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
But me, I do have to say that her greatest
music has been about looking for love. Are you worried
that her music now is going to suffer with happiness?
Speaker 6 (09:35):
No, because what we saw with Folklore and Evermore and
she said she's going to do this again. Not with
Life of a Show God, because that's about behind the
scenes of when she was doing the ears tool, but
she said with those two albums she really enjoyed writing
songs from the perspective of characters, and that was the
first time she'd done that because you know, before that
she'd always mind her life and often her love life.
But some of her greatest songs are about being betrayed
(09:57):
in business, you know as well and being betrayed. You know.
The whole Reputation album was extraordinary, and that wasn't about love.
That was about being canceled.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Can I ask you Mia as a resident you know,
obviously swifty but also pr expert.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Oh tree Pain, Big day for tree Pain.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
One of the things that marks this relationship very much,
as we've already touched on, is how public it is.
It's very public, this relationship and this engagement announcement is
very public. The way that it was said it was
for the fans, like the English teacher and the gym teacher.
It's gorgeous, but it's for the fans. Right, what's the
wedding going to be? Like, I am obsessed now about it.
This is a royal wedding. This is America's royal wedding,
(10:35):
and I am now obsessed that maybe they should lean
into that and down the streets of Kansas City. We
should have an open topped rainbow carriage pulled by unicorns,
and all the girls and the gays can be out
applauding it. That would be brilliant. Donald Trump has made
a stake.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
A lot of fans are saying, I'll buy tickets. They
went to the Eras tour. This is their Eras tour.
They'll watch well they get married at the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Is it possible to have a private wedding if you're
the most famous woman in the world.
Speaker 6 (11:05):
I think so, because when Taylor Swift wants to disappear,
she disappears, knows how to disappear.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
She's disappeared for years at a time.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
So I think that sharing this with the world is
lovely and it's in large part of service to her fans,
who were very, very invested. But she has always done
things on her terms. I don't think we should be
worried about her.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I must say.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
Part of me was like, oh, we should have kept
this private, But then I'm like why, like for the
first time she's with someone who's not emasculated, or like, oh,
we mustn't be seen together on a red carpet. We
mustn't be seen in public, Like for six or seven
years with Joe Alvin, she had to hide, she had
to like sneak in and out.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
Of cars, and like, how would that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (11:46):
There's a theory which I think you'll really like that
the announcement was a homage to tree pain because she
was surrounded by train trees.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
See.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
I loved that.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
I think about your proposal, Jesse, because I had a
friend who's like, he was wearing shorts and loafers with
new socks and ooh and yuck, And.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I was like, is that about that?
Speaker 6 (12:04):
You know what your betrothed was wearing when he proposed
to you, what you were wearing. None of that matters,
None of it matters.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
And there was something.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Really daggy about it in the most over the top way,
of course, which I absolutely loved, which made it feel
very real to me.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They're a world in which, you know how you said,
Taylor does everything on her terms, and we all know
that she loves to trick us, Queen of the missed direction.
Is it possible that they're already married?
Speaker 6 (12:31):
No, but I do think this happened a couple of
weeks ago like, I think that there's been time. I
don't think it happened yesterday.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And there were hints over the weekend, quotes from Travis
Kelsey's parents that suggested they knew.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Oh yeah, absolutely, I think you know, just like with
your proposal, there were people around them that were clued in,
and I'm sure Tree knew.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Theory among just the Out Loud team is that Travis
Kelcey did ask Tree pain one hundred percent Taylor's.
Speaker 6 (12:56):
For Scott, her father, he would have had to go
and ask Tree and fair enough.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
One more tidbit I need to share, please, Blake Lively
has not at the time of recording lying to the post.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I'm very upset about that.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
And what does that tell us?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
No, I just think she's not going to be made
of honor.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
I think it's messy.
Speaker 6 (13:11):
I think that we all have friendships that we've left
behind for various reasons, usually not as high profile as
lawsuits and things like that, but we all do. And
it's kind of a bittersweet when someone that you were
super close to has this life milestone, whether it's a
happy one like this or a sad one like losing
a parent, you sort of feel like you should reach out.
(13:32):
Just because she didn't like it on Instagram does not
mean she didn't necessarily text. But I think probably her
number is blocked. I think Tree would have seen to that.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Guys, there's so much to talk about.
Speaker 6 (13:41):
There's the ring, There's whether or not she was surprised,
There's a lot.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Of There was the nearly twelve months ago to the day,
there was a leaked breakup plan, which was a big
topic of discussion, and I just want to go back
to that, revisit what we said.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
And there are a lot of clues.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
I've been diving deeper. We shocked to hear about a
lot of clues. The Swifties have done their work, and
there are a lot of clues in the announcement, in
the photo. There's a lot still to talk about. So
I'm sure you've probably got other topics to talk about.
I don't know what they are, sure they'll be great.
I don't really want to talk about anything else today, Okay,
So I think I'll excuse myself and go do some
more research and maybe see you in a subs episode.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Oh my god, I that would be amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Sounds good.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
I have one more thing to say about the announcement
Kill a Trav.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
So the first thing I thought I won't.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I checked Instagram because that's how it goes, and I
saw kill a Trav and I went home follow Killer Trav.
Who the hell is that she can't marry kill a Trap?
He has to change his Instagram handle and then maybe
she will follow him, because she still doesn't follow him
on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Change it to Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
It just screams he made it when he was twelve,
didn't realize he'd become so famoure. Now he's marrying Taylor
Swift and he is Killer Trav on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I'm horrified over to a different kind of Royalty. I
have generously been given one whole minute. This is very
troubling for me to bring you up to speed on
what's been happening in princess business this week. Okay, which,
to be honest, since this week one of my tailors,
Megan Markle, launched an show and did a whole, big,
(15:11):
long form interview. This is very cruel, but I understand
we've been usurped by the way at Royalty. So here's
my quick rundown of what's been happening in Princess business
this week? Season two as ever, Sorry with love, Megan,
Why isn't it called the same thing? It's bad for?
Brand has dropped? And what's weird about it? Considering that
(15:31):
season one we had to sit through lots of people
we've never met before making candles, is that this season
it's got cred right. Episode one has got David Chang
on it. Now, you might not know who he is
Jesse because you don't like food, but here is a
big deal. He's the momo fuku guy. He is a
big deal.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Is he the one who makes a lobster? I've seen
a clip no no no.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Episode two has Chrissy Tagan and episode eight with the lobster,
that's jose Andres. He is massively famous and he's the
founder of World Central Kitchen. Like he is a massive deal.
So why did she keep all the good people for
the second season? I am very confused about that. Same day,
Meg sits down for a long form interview with Bloomberg
Emily Chang in a bookstore. Presumably this is where she
(16:13):
chose to be interviewed in a bookstore. You like books,
says Emily Chang, looking around. What are you reading right now?
Reading says Megan. Oh, I read to my kids. I
read self help, but mostly Emily. She says this, and
then my late.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Night indulgence now is just a lot of duolingo?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Do you ever do know?
Speaker 5 (16:31):
That's great when I could find the time. What are
you do olingoing? I'm dual lingering French.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, I committed to relearning it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And so yeah, me too, megs me too. As you know,
I'm naturally we are basically the same person. Meanwhile, over
in that place that Megan's not allowed to go to anymore,
Princess Catherine got the world momentarily obsessed with the fact
that she had dyed her hair blonde. Now, I can't
really explain to you how I know, deep in my
(17:00):
soul she did not dye her hair blonde. Princess Catherine
is no more allowed to dye her hair blonde than
she is to pick her undie's out of her But.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I saw those pictures of her in the limousine or something,
and they think that it's blonde.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Is it just light the lighting?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It's a pat picture right through a car window that
looks like she's gone proper blonde blonde. But a strategic
leak has already been placed with the Daily Mail that says,
this is just yacht tad. She has spent the summer
in Greece and she's slowly been lightning her brown from
chestnut to more caramelli and there's just a bit of
(17:38):
summer sun on it. And that is worth a thousand headlines?
Did I do well on my princess update? I updated
very well.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
You missed the part where I saw that Meghan got
gifted by Harry the big portrait.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, on her Instagram today, a big black and white
portrait of her laying in a field with her dog.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
I think it might be her late dog.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
One more thing too. You missed something else We learned
from the season two of this TV show that for
Harry's fortieth birthday had hats printed that said P forty
for his friends to wear. I just want to emphasize
to you that that means that they ask their friends
to call him Prince Harry.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
PH Prince Harry. Look, if this was a different day,
if Taylor Swift had not made her announcement, we would
be talking for hours and you would be under sufferance
at me talking about that all of this Easter eggs
in the as Ever with Love Megan, So just count
yourself lucky that we're not doing that.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Now one's watching that season, Hollywayen right, No One.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
In a moment. A shocking announcement from the PM about
terrorist attacks on Australian soil. So yesterday we had some
shocking and pretty surprising news from Canberra. Prime Minister Anthony
Albanezi stood in the courtyard at Parliament House and he
pinned last year's anti Semitic attacks that happened in Melbourne
(18:59):
and in Sydney on a foreign power, and that foreign
power is Iran. The revelation hinges on intelligence from Australia
spy agencies. And the way that you know this is
a big deal is when the head of AZIO, the
super secret spy agency, actually comes out to talk to
the press, and that happened yesterday. His name is Mike Burgess.
He explained that the December attack on a Melbourne synagogue
(19:20):
and the October attack on Sydney's Lewis Continental Kitchen were
ordered by Iran. So he stressed that Iran themselves, Iranian diplomats,
didn't conduct these attacks. They likely engaged a third party
criminal organization to do them for them. I also want
to mention that Iran denies the allegations. Iran's Foreign minister
has said that there are dozens of synagogues in Iran
(19:42):
and it made zero sense for Iran to attack these
sites in Australia. But I do have to say that
these allegations are so extraordinary, so unusual, so out of
left field, that Alberesi and the Australian intelligence authorities had
to have been absolutely certain in what they said yesterday.
There would be no doubt when they announced this. So
(20:03):
let's hear what Alberanzi did have to say.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
These were extraordinary and dangerous ects of a Russian orchestrated
by a foreign nation on Australian soil. They were attempts
to undermine social cohesion and so discord in our community.
It is totally unacceptable and the Australian government is taking
strong and decisive action in response.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
So in response, what has Albanezi done. He has expelled
Iran's ambassador to Australia. That hasn't happened since World War II,
and three other Iranian diplomats were photographed late last night
in a car fleeing the country. There's so much that
we still don't know about this story. There's so many
questions about it. But one unexpected development to come out
of it is that Iran and Israel, who has sworn enemies,
(20:51):
now agree on one thing, and that one thing is
they do not like Australia. Last week, Albanzi was sparring
with Benjamin Netanyahu, who's Israel's Prime minister and now Iran's
foreign minister, posted on x overnight that Netanya, who is
right about one thing, Australia's Prime minister, is indeed a
weak politician.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I bet that Albernezi is wishing he could change the subject.
I have one question why Australia, Like why would Iran
use Australia as a particular target for this.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's such a good question and I don't think we
know the answer. So Iran has been linked to terra
plots in other countries in the US and Mark, Belgium, Albania,
but the last big report on that activity came before
October seven, and as far as we know, as far
as I know, there hasn't been a direct specific link
made of this kind to terrorist activity in the West
since then.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Australia has the seventh largest Jewish population in the world,
so I mean it's significant, but it's it's not the largest, like,
and that's obviously outside of Israel. But reading all of
this and reading the details of you know, the text
messages and stuff they've got from the planning, what's remarkable
and so lucky is that no one was her Like,
(22:05):
there was someone hurt. Actually there was someone injured during
the arts and attack, And of course they're saying that
they think a few of the other targeted attacks on
Jewish businesses and stuff, Iran was behind that. But the
fact that no one was hurt is pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Just to use real layman's terms, and please correct me,
I mean yeah, but is that because not I mean,
not their lack of casualties, But is that because when
you say they didn't carry out these incidents, but they're
literally organizing and paying like petty criminals or organized.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Don't seem to have any really.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Like no deep affiliation, but to do this for them, Yeah,
and then how effective they are is kind of beyond
Iran's control. But what it certainly succeeds in doing is destabilizing.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, I think, Yeah, the funny thing is too that
Australia by some measures, has fallen behind other Western nations
in sanctioning Iran so quick. Bringing you up to speed
on many many years of irun in history is that
it has been ruled by this extremist religious regime since
nineteen seventy nine. Since its revolutions of Western countries have
(23:11):
taken steps to sanction and to punish that extremist religious regime.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
In various ways.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Australia has really been behind the rest of the park
in terms of doing that. So Albinizi just said that
he's going to sanction the Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corp. They're
kind of like the secret religious police there. But for instance,
the US and lots of other Western countries had already
said that that group was a terrorist organization. So it's
almost like by doing this, Iran's kind of goading Australia
(23:38):
into coming up to speed with the rest of the
West in sanctioning them.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's very odd, and what it did achieve was its
goal of terrorizing the Jewish community.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Like it said, it's horrific.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
There are just to know that these attacks were so
targeted and by a foreign power. I think is terrifying
and it continues to compromise social cohesion. There's an incredible
article by Kylie Moore Gilbert in the Sydney Morning Herald
in the Age where she right about she was.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Imprisoned in Iran.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
She's an Australian academic and she says that in twenty
twenty she was being interrogated by the Revolutionary Guard Corps
and they were presenting her with a paper with the
names and addresses of multiple synagogues in Melbourne and wanted information.
So what she's trying to say is that her, along
with lots of members of Iranian Diaspra, have been saying
(24:33):
for a long time these are really dangerous people, basically
call them a terrorist organization, and now Australia has come
to the table and kind of acknowledged just how dangerous
they are. This operation as well has been so interesting
because what Australia needed to do was get their diplomats
out of Iran before they did any of this to
keep everyone everyone safe. So yeah, we are just going
(24:55):
to learn a lot more about this in the coming
weeks and months after the break Northwest, the daughter of
Kim Kardashian and Kanye West went to dinner in a
corset and everyone is clutching their pearls.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Holly needs a moment to puff fish.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
of the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
This week, Northwest and her mother, Kim Kardashian were spotted
in Rome, having no doubt a very lovely meal. Paparazzi
pictures began to circulate, which North has been experiencing her
whole life, but this time the commentary was very different.
For context, North is twelve, She is the eldest of
Kim and Kanye's four kids. Kim and Kanye are divorced,
(25:53):
and she was wearing a black corset, a short skirt,
and chunky black boots, and the Internet swiftly decided that
this was not appropriate attire for child.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
The thing about twelve year.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Old girls, as someone who was once a very awkward
twelve year old girl knows, is that some still look
like kids, and others have begun to change. And you
have no control over that west And I hate to
even say this, but unfortunately it's important context. She falls
into the latter category, so she might look different in
(26:26):
a corset to how another twelve year old may look
in a corset. Comments started flooding in about how inappropriate
North's outfit was, reminding Kim that her daughter was only twelve,
which I'm sure she'd forgotten. One comment read not a
fan of a busty air on a twelve year old.
Another said it's Kim's job to preserve her daughter's innocence,
(26:47):
and another said why does North look thirty two? Then
there were others who argued it's literally not up to
Kim to shield her children from weirdos. It's up to
the general public to not be weird. Look, there are
a lot of places to go with this story, but
I'll tell you why these pictures captured my attention. Yesterday,
I was a young teen with boobs that I did
(27:08):
not want. I didn't know how to dress. I knew
that me wearing a white singlet wasn't read the same
as the girl next to me wearing a white singlet,
or the way.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
That it was read last year. When you're wearing a.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
White singlet exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And I can see now in hindsight how much my
mum must have struggled to not say anything. And I
remember fighting with her to buy a stunning brown singlet.
It was a crop top with white riding across the
chest that said naughty gal was from soup Prey. And
I suppose my question here is what is the role
of parents? And let's be real, it is always considered
(27:42):
the domain of mothers to police their daughter's bodies.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Holly, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
To try really hard not to get all high pitched
and screechy about this, because it is an absolute puffer
fish for me. I have had so many arguments about
this in general with people in my life. I wrote
a frickin' book about it. Largely, there is nothing that
irritates me more than people screaming stop sexualizing young girl
(28:09):
while they are sexualizing the young girls themselves by deciding
that once their body has changed, it is no longer
appropriate for them to wear certain things. Right. It is
so confusing for young kids, as you have already expressed, Jesse,
that there's this weird liminal time where you know, last
summer it was fine for you to run around in
a bikini and no one was bothered. And this summer
(28:32):
everybody's like, oh, could you cover up? And you can
read it like kids are not stupid, They're incredibly sensitive
to shame in particular, and they can pick it up
all around them that suddenly something that has happened to
them that has nothing to do with them. It wasn't
in their control, it wasn't their choice has changed everything,
and suddenly their body in clothes, in a bikini, in jeans,
(28:53):
in a crop top in of course, it is a
dangerous thing that needs to now be treated very differently,
And I just find it so infuriating that women in
particular buy into this and pile onto moments like this Northwest. Obviously,
she's not an ordinary twelve year old. Of course she's not.
But I've lived through this, right, and I have a
(29:14):
fifteen year old daughter, and I'm around a lot of
girls of those ages. Walk into a Brandy Melville, walk
into a soup prey, walk into any shop, and you
will see young girls who are ordinary in terms of
you know, their background whatever, who want to dress this
way corsets, crop tops, tight little shirts with big, baggy
jeans or little raw raskirts are what a lot of
(29:36):
girls this age want to wear. The only difference with
what Northwest is doing is that hers have designer labels
on them, and hers get photographed by the entire world
and sent around for everybody to pick up and judge.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
That is not the only difference between.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Them in this instance.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It is is Kim Kardashian. We cannot discuss this in isolation.
Kim Kardashian. Now, I'm not making any kind of comment
on her as a mother. She's going through a lot
with a very very difficult ex husband who is also
dealing with mental health challenges. So I'm setting that aside
and saying that Kim Ashing from a very early age,
(30:11):
was sexualized by her own mother, and you're acting like
that's not common.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Because I don't believe in it. Because I really don't
believe that Northwest is being sexualized. That is my thing
is that I think that it's And I don't want
to get personal, either about myself or anybody else in this,
but it's very easy in all areas of parenting before
you've got there to go like I would never I
have never let my daughter.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
My favorite pastime is talking about parenting stages I'm yet
to reach, and the various rules that I will impose
at that stage, Just like when I was pregnant, I
said I would never use screens screen.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Have you met a tween? Have you met a particularly
precocious tween? Have you tried to make them do things
they don't want to do? Things they don't want to?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Say that what I'm doing is parent shaming. I'm saying
that there is context here that her mother's rise to
fame came from. And I'm not going to sugarcoat this
a sex tape that some people believe that is credibly
believed her mother had a hand in release.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Well, it's kind of an empire built on sexualization, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Is that your point?
Speaker 6 (31:13):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
You genuinely think that the reason Northwest is wearing that course,
it has nothing to do with what twelve year old
girls are wearing in the suburbs of Sydney. Everything to
do with.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
This podcast about the fact that two things can be true.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I reject it. I thoroughly reject.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Okay, okay, I reckon that there are two things going
on right because, on the one hand, I think we
are in a moment of cultural reckoning of giving children
any sort of public platform, and North challenges that. For
a lot of people, North, as a twelve year old,
is all over TikTok. North has been put on a
(31:51):
song by her father, who in March, by the way,
came out and basically went, I'm so uncomfortable that my
daughters are wearing perfume and the clothes that they're wearing,
and they're wearing lipstick and blah blah blah. My puffer
fish is men who are not involved in parenting sitting
on the sidelines criticizing the mother.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
That's my puffer fish.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
But my point about that is that I think that
there is a growing discomfort about having young kids in
the spotlight. And Kanye just recently put Northwest on a
song with convicted sex felon PDDY exactly right. So there's
(32:29):
a big discussion that I think it's probably playing into
that a little bit, which is who is protecting Northwest?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
But this is the thing is, I don't think that
is what anyone in the comments section is worried about,
because I think that what you think of Kim and
Kanye's parenting choices is one thing, right, And I entirely
agree with you about whether or not it's in any
way healthy for a twelve year old to have the
kind of plantchion platform that Northwest does. We are talking
specifically here about clothes, and the reason that it is
(32:56):
a pufferfish and a trigger is because that is something
we all relate to. Is I know you're not there yet,
but this is something that will suddenly happen where your daughter,
as I say, is wearing something that was fine for
her to six months ago, but suddenly they're like, how
could you let your daughter wear that? Okay, and so
what's the conversation you're going to hide?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I have an example. I don't want to make this
about our parenting choices, so I'm going to try and
step back and talk in more general terms about how
I felt recently when I saw a picture that made
me uncomfortable. I love the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, and I
love the Netflix documentary about them, which just finished its
second season. Highly recommend if you have not watched it,
because I'm now a super fan. I follow everything they do.
(33:37):
They had a summer camp and they invited six year
olds to come along and learn how to cheerlead with them,
which is great because it is an athletic endeavor that
involves a lot of artistry. And I applaud that there
were six year olds on the field wearing modified Dallas
Cowboys cheerleaders outfits. And they were modified in the sense
that the chierleaders were very I think it's safe to
(33:57):
say skimpy outfits. They have little extreme crop tops with
a bow over the cleavage, and these six year olds
were wearing T shirts printed with that bow and the
little bedazzled jacket that they wear on top of it.
And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't made
uncomfortable by that. Now, does that mean that I am
sexualizing the six year olds? Maybe? Maybe it's my problem,
(34:19):
but I felt uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I think there is a world of difference between a commercialized,
systematic kind of this is what the young girls who
dance have to look like. It's one of the reasons
why I genuinely was uncomfortable about my daughter and never
doing dancing is because there's no choice there. It's like
from six Lipstick Hair Foundation.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
You just described it as a commercialized, systematic operation that is.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
The Kardashian no. But what they have always buughted the boundaries,
because I agree with you about that those pictures of
Dallas cowboy cheerleader's made me really uncomfortable, right, But my
argument about why Northwest is being shamed for wearing a
corset is to me a completely separated well.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
The irony of the corset, and in fact the irony
of the six year olds with the cheerleading as well,
is that they're just imitating what the older women in
their lives are doing. So if you look at the
picture of Kim and north not is just dress like Kim,
And it's like, how do you explain to a twelve
year old that their body is more sexualized than the
body of an adult woman, that you will never be
(35:16):
as sexualized as the moment you have curves.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
I just wanted to bring to you both something that
I've been thinking about a lot lately about clothing. I
love buying second hand clothes, and I especially love calling
them vintage because it makes it some more fancy. In fact,
I'm wearing a great top I got at Finney's today,
and you told me that you got yours.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
At I think it was deep hop or it could
have been like a Red Cross store.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I'm wondering why you look like Sienna Miller.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
But the one thing that really trips me up in
buying secondhand and even an extending the life span of
my existing clothes is stains. Because you get a stain
and then you think I don't really want to wear
that anymore, You get self conscious, you think I've got
to take it to the dry cleaner. It goes in
a pile of clothes for the dry cleaner, which of
course never actually leaves your sofa or the chair in
your bedroom that you have designated for the dry cleaner.
So there's this real stigma around clothing stage. I think
(36:06):
that's safe to say. And there's a substacker called Isabelle
Slow who wrote recently that we all just need to
get over the stain problem.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Couldn't agree there.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
She wrote a piece called on Loving My Clothes with
stains and Holes, and she talks about trying to actively
shift her mindset when it comes to imperfections in her clothing.
She says, a stain can end the life cycle of
a clothing item just too early, like you might still
love it. I think about the fact that I used
to love wearing silk shirts to work, and then I
realized that they all had awful yellow stains underneath them,
(36:36):
and then I just never wore them again.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I struggle with silk and sweating. I find that my
sweat I'm like, is my sweat different? Because I feel
like I ruin every the issues. I don't know how
to wash silk, which is a whole other thing no
one does.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And you mentioned gently agitate, but who is very complex?
And think about all those little silk worms who work
so hard for these things, and then we're just discarding them.
So here's a proposal. What if we decide that stain's
a character, that they're kind of cool, and look, we
do this with other items. Think about the Burken bag,
the famous Umez Birken bag. They retail for tens of
(37:08):
thousands of dollars. It's named after this French style icon
named Jane Burkin. And the whole point of how she
used her bags is that she scuffed them, She wore
them to the ground, she puts stickers on them, she
stuffed bagets in them. And Kate Moss, who's another style icon,
was just recently seen on the beach with her burken
She took an eighteen thousand dollars bag to the beach
(37:29):
and put her beach towel in it.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
So that's a status symbol though, right though, that's kind
of like saying, I know this bag is really expensive,
but to me, it's just like the green bag, you
know from the supermarket.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
All you could say it's very sustainable of them. So
I want to say, let's stop being precious about the stains.
Let's stop do we judge people who have stains. No,
so let's accept that we can just wear the stains
and they're a sign of character and they're a sign
of age.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I think antique furniture like that has little stains on it,
and that's absolutely fine. I wear stains all the time
because my theory is no one's looking at you, no
one notices the things that you notice. They don't. And interestingly,
I went really deep on what you can and can't
donate recently. You can't donate a piece of clothing with
a stain on it, which is why so much of
(38:12):
it ends up in landfill and really good quality stuff,
which again they think is related to people don't know
how to wash their clothes anymore, like the skills of
our grandmothers, who could get a stain out of anything,
which you know was always baking, so like Vegga, I
don't know, they would do something and get the stain out.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
A lot of influencers who are obsessed with that stuff.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
I think we need to go back to like learning
how to wash our clothes, but also rock the stain.
Mayor Friedman would say, put a brooch over it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I want to know how many years is acceptable to
have a piece of clothing or something like that. I
put a thing in the Outlouders Facebook group on the
weekend about towels on a similar vein right. I wrote
that because I wanted some tips and I knew the
outluders would help me out about where to buy a
job lot of new towels, because I suddenly looked at
the towels in my bathroom and realized that they were
all quite rady, and that some of them, quite a
(39:03):
lot of them were older than my children. And that's
all right, well this is the thing. But they were tatty, okay,
and some of them, you know, they the thing anyway,
So the Outlouders were full of really great ideas. They
were like, go and buy them from game. Aren't they
really good? And fluffy blah blah blah blah. But several
of them said, let's normalize having tails older than our children.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And I feel the same about tea taels. I have
had tea tails for a very long time with holes
in them and burns on them, and I'm like it
just it shows all the years I've been slogging away cooking,
which is not what's happened.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
That's character.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I love it. And coffee steams. That is all we
have time for today. Out Loud is what a big day.
Thank you so much for listening to our show, and
thank you to our wonderful team for putting it together.
We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
And out Loud as we may have teased it, but
tomorrow we are going to drop a very special subscriber
episode all about Taylor's engagement. There was so much more
that we wanted to say. Maya is our very special guest.
She's wearing ridiculous out hit and if you're not a
swifty feeling a bit left out, then may I suggest
you go back. You listen to yesterday's subscriber episode where
(40:07):
I made an apology because it turns out that I'm
wrong all the time, and I said something on this
show that I swiftly regretted thanks to an out louder
who called me out. She's now come back and said,
thank you Jesse for your lovely apology, and I she's
my new best friend.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
We're always learning.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
We are always learning. A link to that is in
our show notes.
Speaker 4 (40:26):
Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.