June 23, 2025 • 41 mins
Jameela Jamil is breaking up with women journalists via Substack. After too many burnouts and betrayals, the actress and activist is done. But is this really the group chat exit we think it is? Mia, Jessie and Holly have thoughts.
Plus, there's a mahoosive marriage taking place in Venice this week and friends, people are protesting. It's Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez whose nuptials are getting flack and their wedding extravaganza is everything you’d expect: 27 dresses, three days of events, multiple protests, and a juicy affair that started it all. We've got the full rundown — from the super yacht to the guest list.
Also on today’s show: you've heard of 'Let Them' and if you came to our live show, you might have heard our blunt alternative. But what about... 'Who says?' Who says you can’t wear that crop top? Who says those pants aren’t it? (Well, Mia... apparently. But ignore that.) This latest life theory might just be the one that changes everything — for the better.
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What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: The Book Club Implosion & The Best Friend Comparison Spiral
- Listen: The Lick Ick & The Patron Saint of Betrayed Women
- Listen: And Just Like That…Carrie Won’t Talk About Her Vagina
- Listen: Jessie & The Inside Scoop On The Project's Cancellation
- Listen: Meghan Sussex, Emma Grede & The Rebrand of 'Hustle'
- Listen: The Books That Changed Our Lives
- Listen: Indy Clinton, A Private Investigator & The Anonymous Women Running Scared
- Listen to Parenting Out Loud: A New Co-Parenting Rule & The 100% Work Dilemma
- Listen to No Filter: Jameela Jamil Knows How To Take Down Andrew Tate
- Listen to The Quicky: What Happens Now The US Has Bombed Iran & Taylor’s Texts Go To Court
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mama Mia out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm
Holly wayIn Wright.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm Meya Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm a
little irritable. Would you like to know why I'm irritable today?
It is because over the weekend I went to the
gym because all the people on the Instagram a telling me,
I need you got to limp and if you gotta
lift heavy, however much you're lifting, lift more.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Was a big conversation on mid the other.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Wak exactly right, And I listened to that and I went,
all right, bone density tick, gonna.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Go and lift heavy.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So I went and I lifted four kilos heavier than
I normally would.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
I did well. This was like I was doing like
a squat.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thing and I got a twelve kilo ped all bell
whatever you call it. Anyway, I did a squat and
I felt my lower back go and like it was
in the first two minutes of being at the gym,
and I have been limping all.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Weekend, because it's not like you can stop lifting.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I've got a twelve kilo toddler who isn't just a
dead weight.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
She actually resists.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Against me a lot of the time when I'm holding her. Now,
I just have this terrible back.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's funny because I was also lifting on the weekend,
and I lifted a bit hard too. I don't think
I did twelve kilos, but somehow lifting a toddler doesn't
feel as heavy as lifting a weight.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It does mean when they're trying to throw themselves out
of your hand.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But I've also been lifting a little hard.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Holly has your back, mate.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
The only thing I lifted on the weekend was a
cup of tea in a sandwich, So my back's just fine.
I'm ignoring all that wise health advice anyway. Friends, unless
you're perhaps wisely avoiding everything news, you would know that
this weekend America back to Israel's war with Iran, and
talk of what this escalation means for the world is everywhere.
(02:00):
If you want a calm headed explainer of that, please
go and listen to today's episode of The Quickie, where
Claire Murphy and Taylor Strano do what they do best
and give a very clear overview, complete with some expert commentary.
It's really good listen.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But here is what is on our agenda for today.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
We're going to unpackage because the jury is out and
I'm part of the jury.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I tried to sneak it in twice last week. Now
I'm doubting it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I am responsible for this new piece of podcast furniture
agenda sogenda is vernacular that we use. We do when
we're talking about put that on the agenda. Usually it's
before we have dinner. I used this with a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Of groups, so a portmanteau it is of and agenda.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's not really clear why our agenda has anything to
do with the vagina, but it does. Sometimes we actually
have a vagenda notesapp going we do for dinner where
we put the things in.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, because I'm just like a group of women talking
about some things, they have some things on the vergenda.
Yeah right, it's tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to
be thought of this series. Well. Anyway, on our agenda
for today, if you haven't heard about the wedding of
the year that's happening in Venice this week, you won't
be able to miss it. Pretty soon, Amazon founded Jeff
Bezos and astronaut Lauren Sanchez and making it official, and
(03:21):
we are going to unpack the twenty seven dresses, the protests,
and the affair that kicked it all off.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
What you have heard of friends is let them. And
if you came to our Mama Maya out loud live show,
you've also heard a foul mouthed version of that. But
there's a new one. There's a new let them. It's
called who says, Oh, we're going to tell you about that?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And Jamila Jamil is done being interviewed by other women.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Does she kind of have a point?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
But first, if your dad was a Russian billionaire, would
you expect a cut of his fortune?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I think my dad is the opposite of a Russian billionaire.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No fortune coming for you. What about if you'd never
even met him? I want you to meet this guy
called Pavel Durov. Now he founded the controversial messaging platform Telegram.
You might have heard about him. He got arrested in
France a while ago. He's a little bit dubious, but anyway,
he is worth a rumored twenty one billion Australian dollars
and He also, like other billionaires, really really really likes
(04:19):
father and kids. Apparently between the kids his father in
what you might call the conventional way with a partner,
and the sperm donation that he kind of advertised, like
want to have my baby, come and do it. He
reckons he's got more than one hundred children, and so
far that's quite typical. There are quite a few of
these guys that called pro natalists, who believe that smart
(04:39):
masters of the universe, like themselves, should breed more. But
what's a bit different about him is that he's gone
public saying that in about thirty years he's going to
split his entire fortune between all of the children. So
the more than one hundred children, whether they are children
that he has fathered actively or just the sperm donory ones,
that will probably mean, depending on how many more he has,
(05:02):
that these kids will get about two hundred and sixty
million each.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So what he's done this is really interesting. He's essentially
gamified it and it'll now become like a hunger game
situation among women who want to have children and have
access to that kind of life. The lottery.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, there is this term that I learned over the
weekend called accidental incest, which is being referred to because
you do have some sperm donors who are donating so
much and creating so many kids. There was an instance
in Australia where woman was talking about it where she
said that people that were half siblings were finding each
(05:43):
other at parties not knowing that they were half siblings.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Did you watch that documentary The Man with one hundred
Children a thousand? That was about exactly this. And there
are these men, the pro natalists or whatever their issue
is or their reasoning for it, is that they are
just spreading their sperm literally everywhere. And most sperm banks
in most countries and states have limitations on how many
(06:07):
times you can donate for this exact way, because in
a particular town, for example, you can't have too many
kids that are around the same age they might you know,
hook up. But these men get around it by going
to different countries because there's not like one international sperm
bank that regulates these things. So it's a real issue.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I'm worried about the proliferation of these precise genes right
because it's like, what are we genetically privileging? If you're
a pro natalist you're a particular type of person. Think
about Elon Musk. What does that do to the human race?
If you've got a very specific type of man who
is fathering hundreds and hundreds of children like that is
worrying going forward.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Jamila Jamil is.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Done being interviewed by women. Jamil is a thirty nine
year old actress. People might know her from The Good Place.
She was in that, but she's more so known as
a body positivity advocate. She was very vocal when the
Kardashians were spooking their dietees, and she hosted a podcast
called Iway with Umila Jamil, which was very very popular. Recently,
(07:11):
she was actually a guest on No Filter. She was
in Australia.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I have seen her in The Good Place. She was
great in that, but more people would probably know her
from Instagram. She's a feminist, well, she's identified as a
feminism and speaks out about all different kinds of things.
She's very outspoken on.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
A bit of a commentator.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, and over the weekend she published a sub stack
with the subject line I think I'm done being interviewed
by women. I am disgusted, and she says her trust
has been broken for the last time after a toothy
opinion piece in the UK Times, which we're going to
get to in a moment, but after being interviewed in
print for more than seventeen years, she says she's only
been treated fairly by women three times, where she says
(07:50):
that male journalists have always given her a fair shot.
When she read the profile, which was written to promote
schod new podcast out called Wrong Turns and a Pixar
movie called Elio where she voices one of the characters,
she said it was like reading the gossip section of
her Wikipedia page. She said it was cheap and bit
she intended to embarrass her. And we don't interview men
(08:10):
like this, opening with paragraphs about all of their controversies. Holly,
before we go any further, can you give us a
sense of our primary source here the Times piece? What
was the vibe of the Times piece?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yes, so it was written by a journalist called Liz Edwards,
and Jamala Jamil makes the point in her piece that
usually she's a travel writer at the time, so that's
kind of true. She does do a lot of travel content.
But one of the things that is eye opening about
this really is that when I read it. It didn't
strike me as particularly toothy, but I see Jamala's points.
So here's just a taste of it.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So the first thing is is that the online headline
is Jamala Jamil I stood up for Megan long before
I met her, referencing Meghan Markle. It has a different
headline in the actuals. I think it's from the magazine
from Sunday Time with magazine, and it starts like this,
It says Jamala Jamal says she does not need your approval.
I don't personally like that many people, so I think
it's ridiculous for me to expect other people like me,
(09:06):
says the thirty nine year old TV presenter Da Da
Da Da Da. Talk about her social media rows, as
they say, and they cherry pick a few comments when
she called a famous actor a freshly wanked cock, for example,
and she said some pissy things about several people. And
then the writer says, all of this might mean you'd
expect her to be prickly company, but she's more cats
(09:28):
poor than cactus spikes. She's in velvet. She's funny and
self aware and disarmingly polite to me, to the hotel
bar staff, whose best efforts at finding us at the
quiet table come to nothing, and to the waiters.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So this to any journalist, they're establishing color right like,
they're giving you a sense of the person. This is
what profiles do. She goes on to talk about what
she's wearing, what she looks like. She says that she
looks great in what she's wearing. It takes a bit
of a turn. The writer talks about some of Jamila
Jamil's stated life story, which is she says she has
(10:00):
had several different health issues, She's struggled with the eating disorder,
She's been in two different car accidents. And the rider
seems to be saying a lot of things have happened
to Jamila.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Which the writer isn't the first person to say that.
There's been enormous controversy and kind of an internet massive
discussion about whether or not some of those claims are true.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, And the journalist brings up, for example, a spat
I guess a social media spat she had with Piers Morgan,
and Jamil says, I have no interest in even continuing
this line of conversation. Jamil now says, coolly, echoed by
alarmed murmurs from her publicists at the next table, foolishness
is something we should discourage in the media. She records
our whole conversation, if I go down in flames, I
(10:40):
want to go down in flames based on my own words,
not via made up nonsense. And then, and this line
is one that Jamela particularly took issue with. The writer says,
the clause retract and congeniality resumes. As we chat over
the array of tapas that arrives.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
The clause is are loaded. There is something sexist about that.
You would not use that terminology about a man. And
a lot of what Jamila Jamil writes is true, and
she's right, but there's an irony to it because I
thought that some of what Jamil wrote in her substack
(11:16):
was also laced with a little bit of sexism about
the writer.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Did anyone else notice that?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah. One of the things I think is hard to
unpick here is celebrity profile writing suddenly feels very different now,
and it's not as in the form is not like
the way that this article starts. Jamila Jimil says she
doesn't need to approval full stop. It's like classic magazine writing.
You start with a really pithy line, a statement, and
(11:43):
then you're building a case. Almost That's what every profile
writer does, is they meet a person, they spend some
time with them, and then they're kind of laying out
their case. And this is what Jamil takes issue with.
She says, you know, why are they always prosecuting me
and whether or not I have a right to say things,
you know, my personality rather than my work. And this
is something we've discussed on this podcast a lot. Women
(12:03):
do very often get judged much more for who they
are than what they do. One of the things I
have issue with here is I also think this is
how male profile happened to a little bit less commentary
on what they're wearing. But this is the nature of
the beast with a celebrity profile. And now that we
all speak so directly, like when Jamela, for example, was
(12:24):
on Now Filter with kateline Brook, brilliant interview, really insightful,
she is entirely presenting herself right. There's no editorializing, and
that's one of the reasons why it feels so authentic
and real, Whereas the whole point of a celebrity profile
is it as editorialized right, Maya.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I find this whole thing completely exhausting, completely exhausting. I
find to be Frank Jamila Jamil pretty exhausting. I think
she's quite typical of a certain type of online personality.
And I probably used to be a bit this myself
(13:01):
many years ago, until I made a conscious decision not
to be. It's like, you want to dish it out,
but then when someone criticizes you, despite her saying, including
in this profile, she says, perhaps this is my superpower.
It makes me untouchable and quite dangerous. I'm immune to
(13:21):
being judged because I don't care. Except she does care,
to the point where she's written this multi thousand word
takedown on substack, which is absolutely her right, and I
have to say I empathize.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
With her a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I've had profiles written of me that have made me
feel exactly like this.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I remember in the earlier years of me working with you, Mia,
I remember in our old office, an esteemed publication was
doing a profile. A journalist basically followed you around for
a couple of days, right, sat in on a few meetings,
interviews you like, this is how profiles work. Yeah, And
how how do you feel about those or did you
feel about those It's not necessarily that specific one, but
(14:00):
those pieces that sort of conceit of journalism. How did
it make you feel when you saw yourself reflected in
those eyes.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
There's a good reason they don't do them anymore, because
they have to find an angle. It's not a what's
you know called a hagiography, It's not a fluff piece. No,
And she says, why didn't she engage with me about
the issues I talk about? It's like, it's not up
to you. You're not the editor of the Times. You
don't get to decide what this journalist says about you.
(14:27):
Another one of her complaints is that this woman who
didn't know me, who didn't know anyone who knows me,
how very DAEs she write about me in this way?
And it's like, well, that's how interviews work, Like that's
actually how interviews work. And then she goes on to say, well,
I've interviewed people and this is how I do it.
What I thought about is, in this age of social media,
(14:50):
when everybody's used to being able to speak for themselves
and control the narrative, when someone else speaks about you,
it's suddenly like, how very dare you, and again I
also know how that feels too.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
If I was sitting in the editorial team for The Times,
my defense would be, it is a profile promoting Jamila Jamil.
There was a photo shoot involved in it. She was
getting something very clear out of this. It wasn't a
community service engagement, and she wasn't there being the face
of a charity. She was there promoting her work, which
is her right, and her work is a new podcast
(15:26):
called Wrong Turns. That podcast is all about failures, embarrassing moments,
perhaps vulnerabilities. Yes, what the author wrote about was thematically
not irrelevant, like you could see how even I'm a
pervert for failure or whatever was the line, It was
sort of relevant to the subject matter.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
But I think that people have really got to understand,
including people who are interviewed, is the journalist doesn't choose
the headline, doesn't choose the pool quotes. So those quotes
that come out, that's all chosen by the sub editor
or by the editor, And of course it's designed to
take the most interesting, controversial part of the interview in
(16:09):
the same way that she did that with hers by
using the very rage baity headline I'm done being interviewed
by women, which she did the exact same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That's what I take issue in a bit, because I
think she's got a lot, as we've discussed, she's got
a lot of fair points about it. It is true that
women can be very highly critical of other women. We're
very aware of that. But by doing that and taking
that headline, for a start, it makes every female journalist,
probably including myself, very defensive because you're like, well, you know,
we're not all out here trying to take people down.
(16:44):
But also it is rage bait, just in the way
that she complained that the reason that the Times Online
editor chose the Megan Markel quote, which was one tiny
bit of the interview where basically the journalist says, do
you know Megan, do hang out? And she's like no,
Like I was interviewed by I once, I defended her
publicly in the same way of defendants of women who
are criticized.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Which was a very understandable question. And I have to
say all three of us have read the original source
materials as well as Jamila Jamil's piece, and that was
in the context of her talking about how her and
her boyfriend moved to La You know She's also been
interviewed on Megan's podcast Jamila Lamil. So it wasn't a
crazy question to say, hey, did you hang out? There's
another couple there that have also moved from the UK
(17:25):
and around the same time, do you guys hang out?
It was a reasonable question and she was like, yeah,
we've had dinner a bit like.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I know, but it's been pulled as the news line,
which is what every journalist does, right as you pull
the news line the most interesting, sallacious bits.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
That's not the journalist's fault because they write the piece
and they don't know what's going to be pulled out
as the headline or as the pull quote. That's not
in their control.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So what I struggle with, and I've seen this within
feminists fears quite a bit lately, which is that someone
sees something that they think is sexist or misogynistic by
another woman, and then in the name of feminism, they
call that woman old or ugly or a pick me
girl or something, or a misogynist, which which I still go, mate,
(18:06):
you're using the same trope. So for example, there was
one line where she said, please God, may I never
find this is Jimi La Jamil Please, God, may I
never find myself middle aged dedicated to taking women trying
to do something positive in the world down a peg
or two. I hope I'm still directing my energy towards progress,
not taking the bins out for the patriarchy for a
paycheck and a pat on the head. There were lines
(18:28):
like that in it that I just thought that just
feels as though it's laced with sexism in the same way.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, there's a certain type of online feminist who I've
read described as a self aggrandizing and abrasive version of
feminism that they're peddling. So it's they'll really dish it out,
but then when it comes back to them, they cri misogyny,
they cry how unfair it is, and it's just very
I don't know, either you're in the arena or you're
(18:54):
not in the arena.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But well, yes, but not everything's fair in the arena, right,
Like I think it's fair enough to call out when
you've been misrepresented. I think it's fair enough to call
out when something's damaging or defamatory or whatever. Like, I
don't think it's fair to go in the name of
selling a TV show. You should be fair game for
all kinds.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But whole Why does she keep saying I'm immune to
being judged. I don't care what people think of me.
I don't care what people think of me. And then
there's a profile and again she talks about I did
contact the journalist. There's been no response, no apology, no deletion,
no removal of the piece. And it's like this other
media the world, this is the Internet. And if you're
going to again, if you're going to be in the arena,
(19:35):
you're probably going to get a bloody nose in the arena.
And as a woman of color, she cops so much
more than most women. And it's true, she gets trolled.
Every woman online does she does that little.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Bit more well, and outspoken women do cop it more.
And I think that you could read a profile on
someone like Harvey Weinstein and he wouldn't be described as controversial.
Like controversial every woman in the public eye is described.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's true. Even the word outspoken. How often do you
hear Troman being described as outspoken. I think there's a
lot of truth in what she says. It just really
riles me that in saying it, she has smeared a
whole lot of women in a moment the new theory
that challenges MeTL robins Let them friends? Why do you
(20:23):
wear a bra?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Because I'd hit myself in the face if I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, so that my boobs don't hurt yourself?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Well, yeah, because it's I.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Feel uncomfortable, although I also feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So the reason I'm asking this question is because of
a story that I just read. It's an important part
in this column I just read by the Herald journalist
Kate Halfpenny about a counterpoint to the let them obsession.
She is writing in defense of the who says theory
and let me explain the bra bit. She opens with
the story of a friend who was complaining that her
(20:55):
bra was cutting into her shoulders right, and a friend
who was with her said that she never wears a bra,
particularly in winter when you've got five layers on, like
who knows whether your boobs are down round your waist
or up near your chin, and said, why would you
wear one unless you were meeting the bank manager. The conversation,
Kate writes, spurred Amy to do two things. First, abandon
(21:17):
a bra unless she's working out. Second, ask why it
took her until she was forty to question doing something
every day that she hated. Now she asks who says
when making decisions, Who says you have to wear a
wretched undergarment just to create a pleasing silhouette. Who says
you have to have porridge if you want pancakes? Who
says you have to behave mia. Let them was your
(21:41):
word of the year this year, but your relationship with
it has changed.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I think that this idea of let them is very
linked with passivity, and that can sometimes be a good
thing because we can twist ourselves into notts about things
we can't change people in our lives, geopolitical situations, and
so let them was just basically the only thing you
can control is how you feel about a situation. We
sort of started to talk we talked about on the
(22:06):
show about Michelle. Obama brought a slightly different energy, which
is a little bit more fuck em, which is kind
of like, you don't have to be all sort of
Buddhist and zen about these terrible things that are happening,
or these people that you don't like, all these situations
that you're not comfortable with. You can actually be a
little bit more burn it down.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah. I think that when we say let them.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I've tried. I've tried.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I'm not being honest with myself for others.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I sometimes you do need a little bit more venom,
which is why I think fuckham has really helped. I'm
not going to do anything like I think that Jimila
Jamial probably should have said fuck him and then like
quietly to yeah, just quietly to herself, for example, rather
than going into that fight mode, which is you know,
totally understandable as well. But I really liked the who
(22:55):
says theory because who says I can't wear a shirt
with a bleached stain on it?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I have two bleach stains on this shirt.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I just who says I can't wear the same jeans
and the same shoes to work every day?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Who says I have to wax or lays in my
bikini line?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It's funny. When I was going through the who says though,
I went, oh.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Maya, like, it's true that this is what Kate for one?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Who says that I can't wear the same James to
wake everything?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Kate Halfpenny was riding about that. Increasingly, it feels like
there's an army of people on the Internet giving us
more rules, like more rules all the time, rules about
your face, rules about your food, rule camelte, rules about
your gene shape, rules about your socks, ruled about shoes.
And she's like, we all absorb them and then constantly
feel like we're wrong. And she's like, the anecdote about
(23:43):
the bra is kind of like, obviously, if it's for
your comfort, go for it. But if it's just because
the world has decided there should be something between your
nipples and your outer garments. Who says, I like this
energy and I should have written this bloody story because
I have a post it on the wall of my
office that says, you don't have to and it is
(24:03):
like my little mantra because for.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Someone with that post at Hollywayen right, you things that
you don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I know, but you know how it's supposed to be
my year of not which is clearly going on really
really well. But as me and well as you guys
know very well, I don't like feeling like I have
to do things, and I get a lot of freedom
when I can reframe it. It's like, you don't have to,
but you're choosing to, even if it's kind of bush.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So I sometimes get this phrase in my head, you're
not the boss of me. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's like that. So it's like I don't have to
be governed by my group chats. I don't have to
like look forty when I'm fifty. I don't have to
say yes to everything everyone asked me to do. That
would make so life easier. It's like who says, who says?
It's a little bit toddler though, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (24:50):
It's very two year old.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I don't think it always is, because sometimes it's just
about really challenging your own internalized preconceptions, because you're right,
you're like, well, who says and apart from me says like, well, why,
I remember once interviewing someone and I can't even remember
how it came up because I'm soogynist, and I was
asking her about VPL Remember when that was the thing
(25:13):
visible panty line?
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Oh you've never never taken that a.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Long time ago, And she's just like, well, who says
it has to be something that you're ashamed of? Who
says it's something that you should have to try and hide?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
See, I think that my mantra is a little bit
it's none of my business, Like my VPL. My visible
panty line, which I know I have, is none of
my business because I can't say, only you can.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
But then you bring it up, and that's who says.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Then I says, Mia says after the break, We've got
some scarless gossip about Katie Perry. Every Tuesday and Thursday
we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out
Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers. Follow the
link in the show notes to get your daily dose
of Out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
(25:55):
who is already subscribed.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Friends, I would never engage in scroless gossip. I'm above it,
unlike you to. However, the news is bleak. There is
a lot going on in the world keeping me and
others up at night, and so I would like for
just one moment to reflect upon Katy Perry's alleged separation
from Orlando Bloom, for which we have little to note proof.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Are you ready will allow how alleged is it?
Speaker 4 (26:24):
Sources? Tell people? Okay, can you give me a percentage
on that?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh, People magazine, People Magazine.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, it's pretty solid.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's pretty much like a publicist making an announcement. Great, Okay,
that's or you make announcement on the notes app.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Great, Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
So the pair met in twenty sixteen and then in
twenty seventeen they actually had a year long break, but
then they got back together. They had a daughter who
can remember her name Daisy, Yes, because she brought the
Daisy to space.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Wasting my brain cells. Since nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Five, there are reports that Orlando Bloom mocked Katy Perry's
space flight.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
Very dare he?
Speaker 4 (27:00):
How dare he?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Because he would have gone up there in a heartbeat?
Are you telling me that Orlando Bloom would have said no?
Like he is so a go to space guy?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Is this the story that the reason they've broken up
is he was embarrassed by that.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
So there are a few reasons.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
One is that they got into a fight about the
spaceflight and he said, I told you not to do it,
I told you they'd be BackFlash and you didn't listen
to me. Apparently that fight happened in the middle of
the night, which I just feel like is an important tatail.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So the leak's here are the house staff?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Okay, we've got.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
It, or Daisy.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
The second thing is there are reports that he is
going to the Bezos wedding without her.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Because she's in Australia tour Australia.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
She was at Laurence hend she was exactly and she
can't go because she's in Australia and she's mad because
she's like, Orlando, you're having a go at me for
doing Blue Origin, but you're going to Lauren's wedding.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
So apparently that's created a.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Bit different going to wedding and going to Spain.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
But apparently they're not even Orlando's friends, they're her friends.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
No, I wouldn't be happy.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So then sources told People earlier this month that the
reception of her new album and reviews of the tour
has caused tension in her relationships.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Still having a.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Great year, She's not.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Everyone, including lots of that lauders who've been to the
show in Australia say it's great. Just in a quick
I've heard Katy Perry.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I've heard that too.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
I have just a bit of relationship advice looking at this,
and I think it's just a bit of wisdom that
we can all live by. You got to choose someone
who'd stay with you through Blue Origin. Yes, look at
your partner and go if I had my Blue Origin moment,
which we all will.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
But he has he has stayed with her past that,
so people can't directly link the two.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It was five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I also think it could have been the final straw.
They both talked a lot about how hard it is
to be married.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I think she stayed with him. Who remembers that disastrous
interview he did speaking of profiles, speaking of profile pieces
that paint people in a bad light. Or Lando Bloom,
who last time I checked was a male. He got
slammed after he did this is my day in the
life profile, and it was like I wake up at
dawn and I measure all my sleep apps, and then
(28:59):
I play with Lego while I do my body's chanting,
and then I do twenty five steps in my skincare routine.
And he got slammed. And did she stand there? Yes,
she did.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
All you can't back.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Away because it's damaging for you brand. It's not okay.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
You know what's hard for Katie If she's in therapy
right now and she's talking about, like I did this
Blue Origin thing, blah blah blah, and if her therapist
was to say, who says it was frivolous and out
of touch everyone. Everyone don't play the who says game Katie,
it is not a good time to be playing.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I I think she has to say fuck them.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
I think it's fucking for her anyway.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are getting married in Venice,
Italy this week, and the city's locals are pissed. This
is kind of part of a broader protest movement that's
happening around Europe about over tourism. I don't know if
you've heard.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's been fortunate for me. I'm about to be a
tourist in your.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
You might be sprayed with water pistols, I've heard.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You know, last week the Louver closed in Paris because
the staff said there's too many people coming, were overwhelmed,
were stressed, mental health is suffering, we're not working today.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Why do you think tangent?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
But why do you think over tourism is more of
an issue now than it was ten years ago?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
For example, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I would like to blame Instagram ah as part of it.
In that for example, at the Louver, everybody wants to
go and get their selfie with the Mona Lisa. Do
they give a shit about the Mona Lisa or not.
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
It's probably still part of the post COVID boom, I
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, and there's also that, so no one could travel
for a couple of years, and now everybody can if
they've got the disposable income to do it. And you know,
flights are cheap in certain parts of the world, and
so maybe that. But also back to Jeff and yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
This is a huge, huge deal. The protests are just
one aspect of this whole situation. But if you've been
hearing about Lauren Sanchez Jeff Bezos, obviously you'll be familiar
with him. He is the third wishest man in the world.
He's sixty one years old, and he founded Amazon.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And if you're struggling to place them, remember the Trump inauguration.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Were they there?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Remember when he had all that He had all the
tech billionaires sitting in a row, and Lauren wore a
very eye catching top. And most of the headlines at
the inauguration were actually about Lauren Sanchez's boobs and how
Mark Zuckerberg was looking at them, rather than about anything else.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's true, she's fifty five and their origin story Blue
origin is very interesting. Actually, he was previously married to
Mackenzie Scott for twenty five years since their divorce, and
she got many billions of dollars. She was instrumental when
he found out Amazon. She was very much involved in that,
and she got a huge payout when they divorced. They
had four kids together, and she's gone on to give
(31:40):
most of that away. She's an incredible philanthropist. Laurence Sanchez
is a third generation Mexican American. She is a journalist
and she was previously married to a very big Hollywood
agent guy called Patrick Whitzel. They were married for fourteen years.
They had two kids together, and she had another child
with an NFL player long term boyfriend of hers before
(32:03):
she married Patrick. Fun fact, he's gone on to marry
an Australian. But before we get to that, the most
interesting thing is they met in twenty sixteen while married
to other people. It was at an Amazon party for
the film Manchester by Sea and at the time, Patrick
Whitesell had a few of his stars that he represented
(32:25):
in that film and both of them were married and
their friendship grew from there.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
It must have been quite the moment. I love to
think about the fireworks.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Fly wonder at weddings like this, when you do the
speeches or you do your vows and you.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Talk about whether it's love at first sight.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I wonder how much you have to cloak it when
it was a controversial meeting story, or if you just
have to own it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
No, Wow, everybody knows. And this is what's very very
interesting is that their friendship apparently deepened in twenty eighteen,
two years after meeting, when Lauren, who is a licensed
helicopter pilot, she started working with Jeff Bezos on aerial
filming projects for his space company Blue Origin. So she
goes way back with Blue Origin. So they were both
(33:09):
kind of essentially having this affair. I think we can
clearly say that in twenty nineteen, something really interesting happened.
They both suddenly announced their divorce. Divorce that's from their partners. Yeah,
Because what happened is that some very intimate texts and
photos on her phone somehow fell into the hands of
(33:29):
her brother, who then tried to sell them to the
National Enquirer.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Their hands were forced, yesly betrayal.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
There was Dick Picks involved, There were nude selfies and
one of her very famous texts do you remember this?
I love you? A live girl. He called her a
live girl, And there's a really great profile of her
in the Cut this week where they sort of interview
a lot of people who've already known her in this
idea of her being a live girl. Everyone that has
ever known her says that she's always been a hustler
(34:01):
in a good sense. But she's always incredibly charismatic, very magnetic,
the life of the party, lights up, full of energy,
wildly ambitious, never take stepbacks badly, just will always come
back and be like you know, She's done all sorts
of really interesting things in her life. So this idea
of a live girl. He then was kind of like
(34:24):
a geeky, nerdy Amazon tech billionaire.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
He's had a total rebrand.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
He glowed up. She's always been quite very glowy. I've
watched a lot of videos about her facial transformation. She's
got that very hard bodied, big fake boobs, a lot
of very noticeable plastic surgery on her face. She's fifty
five and he's become really jacked. He shaved his head.
(34:49):
So they've both really clearly share this love of what
would you call it aesthetics ypt. What do we know?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
What do we know about the wedding?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So the wedding is in vanit has discussed it costs
at least ten million, we think probably more so. The
protests are about the fact that Venice over Tauru said
it's going to close it down, blah blah blah. But
also it's about the idea of this spec to call
the uber rich while the world is burning. There were
lots of speculation that Trump might go. I imagine that
now he might be too busy. Yeah, but lots of
(35:18):
very famous people will be there. Obviously, the Kardashians will
have as strong showing. Chris Jenna will certainly be there,
that the Clooney will be there. A lot of very famous,
great and good will be there. It's all going to
be in vogue because Anna Win Tour. One of the
things I find fascinating. If you're wondering why we're telling
you about all this a it's going to be everywhere
you look by the end of this week, because this
wedding lasts for three days and it's going to be
(35:39):
on every screen because people want to distract themselves from
the terrible things going on. But one of the reasons.
I find them fascinating. My current obsession is like the
sort of women in the culture who are looming large,
and Sanchez is a really interesting one of those, because
it would have been not that long ago that there
would have been something kind of shameful gold diggery about
(36:02):
this other woman who stole Jeff Bezos away, and they
would kind of hide their light under a bushel a bit.
But Sanchez and Bezos, as you were just saying me,
have like been massively out and proud with this. And
she is a very like archetype of aspiration, like looking
the way she looks, which is not fifty five, for example,
(36:22):
the way they spend their money, which is incredibly sort
of up. There's yachts and there's It's really interesting because
I think that's not as long as her we were
out luck, we would have thought it wasn't classy, and
Anna win Tour certainly would have thought it wasn't classy.
But now she also sees which way the wind is
blowing and she's like, we will be having this wedding pan.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah. I think she does still see it as not classy.
But Anna win Tour is a survivor and she is
very savvy, and she knows that this is the new
world order. You know, in Magaworld it's not about quiet luxury.
Then you know they have a wide philanthropic arm and
she calls herself a philanthropist. She also just wrote a
(37:02):
children's book about a fly he goes to space. So
I've been watching some interviews with her of trying to
get a bit of a sense of her. She doesn't
try how it be anything that she's not. She seems
like she'd be a good time.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
My only note is I was looking at the protesters thinking,
I wonder what specifically they're protesting, And of course it
is about Venice in particular has been overrun and historic
sites have been damaged by tourists and all that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
And they're basically like.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Which has been happening long before, yes, wedding.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
But I thought, if you think that what Jeff Bezos
is doing to Venice is bad, wait until you learn
what he's been doing to the rest of the planet.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Because he is. And it's interesting that the publicity machine
has already started swinging into action. There've been lots of
stories being planted about here are all the local artisans
that they're working with and this person's made the cake,
and this local person's done this, and you know it's
going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
This is that's ironic, given that Jeff Bezos solely destroyed
local economies exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well, it's very interesting this idea of over tourism protests,
because tourism is the backbone of the economy of a
lot of these big cities. But the locals always say, well,
we can't afford to live here anymore. So you know,
we have that in our own city, like Baron Bay,
for example, there's a lot of protests about over tourism
there and about how people are being driven out and
can't afford rents anymore. So it's going to be really
(38:18):
interesting to watch. Apparently she's had twenty seven dresses commissioned
that are all pretty much cautore I would She's probably
gonna wear Oscar dela Rena. That's what she wore to
the met gala. There was a bit of a holding
nose over who would design it, and also around all
the MAGA people, but you know, Milania Trump and all
the Magas. But now the designers again have seen the
(38:40):
way the wind blows. This is incredibly lucrative for them.
Can you imagine how much publicity it's going to get
and how much money is going to be spent. She's
also been at dot Chain and Gabana. I'm sure she's
spreading the love around. If she's got twenty seven dresses
to wear.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Out louders, that's all we've got time for on our
Monday show them.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
That'sot One more thing, Jesse, I was at your house
for dinner last night. You were there. I was having
dinner with Luca and my other kids. And did you
notice anything different? This morning?
Speaker 4 (39:09):
The house was a little messy, so I knew you'd
been there.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Did you notice anything different in Luna's room? No?
Speaker 4 (39:15):
What did you do?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So? Last night I went upstairs to put it to
bed after her bath, and I went to get her
pajamas and I tried to open the drawer where the
clothes pajamas might be. It was jammed, was so stuffed
so couldn't open it. Now that might remember a while
ago again, when Jesse was out, I went through Luna's
(39:37):
clothes and that was a boundary.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I was a woman possessed last night. I reckon two
thirds of the stuff there were two drawers. Luna did
it with me. We had a great time. Two thirds
of the stuff is now bagged and put away.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Come to my hand.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Yeah, you could actually do my clothes. How you're at it?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
That sounds really.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It made me so happy. There were like newborn rashes
in there. There were a few things that went in
the bit I'm telling you want There are a few
things that I I was just like, this is just
looks like sadness to me. It has to go.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Out loud as. Please direct your anger.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Connection to that rash. I did mind, I did think
about that. I didn't check the rash she out. I
only chucked out things that were disgusting. But the things
that don't fit her anymore, I've all put away in
two huge bags in a cupboard, on top of all
the stuff I put away last time.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
So I can't remember if I said this last time,
I'll speak to you. I saved her newborn singlet from
the hospital, and I will say I have not been
able to find that stuff.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
And if that's singles got bin.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
No, she's not sentimental, you see, but.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I know some of us are very sentimental.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, No, I would have saved that because I would
have got. Oh my god, it's so small and cute.
It just you probably just haven't looked in that cupboard.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
I haven't. I actually don't know what cupboard you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I was actually more ruthless this time. Last time, I
was really nervous about overstepping boundaries, and then I told
you like a week later, and you haven't noticed. So
this time I had more confidence.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
She also hadn't noticed. Have you noticed that she'd It's
going to be.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
So much easier to get addressed.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Now you're welcome, Okay, please come over back to where
we were out louders. A big thank you to all
of you for being with us on this Monday, and
of course to our fabulous team for putting the show together.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton Fenton. In
case you hadn't heard, visit Fenton and Fenton dot com
dot au. Great stuff there.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
do so. There's a link in the episode description,
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mama Mia out Loud, where women come to debrief. I'm
Holly wayIn Wright.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm Meya Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm a
little irritable. Would you like to know why I'm irritable today?
It is because over the weekend I went to the
gym because all the people on the Instagram a telling me,
I need you got to limp and if you gotta
lift heavy, however much you're lifting, lift more.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Was a big conversation on mid the other.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Wak exactly right, And I listened to that and I went,
all right, bone density tick, gonna.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Go and lift heavy.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
So I went and I lifted four kilos heavier than
I normally would.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
I did well. This was like I was doing like
a squat.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thing and I got a twelve kilo ped all bell
whatever you call it. Anyway, I did a squat and
I felt my lower back go and like it was
in the first two minutes of being at the gym,
and I have been limping all.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Weekend, because it's not like you can stop lifting.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I've got a twelve kilo toddler who isn't just a
dead weight.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
She actually resists.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Against me a lot of the time when I'm holding her. Now,
I just have this terrible back.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's funny because I was also lifting on the weekend,
and I lifted a bit hard too. I don't think
I did twelve kilos, but somehow lifting a toddler doesn't
feel as heavy as lifting a weight.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
It does mean when they're trying to throw themselves out
of your hand.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But I've also been lifting a little hard.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Holly has your back, mate.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
The only thing I lifted on the weekend was a
cup of tea in a sandwich, So my back's just fine.
I'm ignoring all that wise health advice anyway. Friends, unless
you're perhaps wisely avoiding everything news, you would know that
this weekend America back to Israel's war with Iran, and
talk of what this escalation means for the world is everywhere.
(02:00):
If you want a calm headed explainer of that, please
go and listen to today's episode of The Quickie, where
Claire Murphy and Taylor Strano do what they do best
and give a very clear overview, complete with some expert commentary.
It's really good listen.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But here is what is on our agenda for today.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
We're going to unpackage because the jury is out and
I'm part of the jury.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I tried to sneak it in twice last week. Now
I'm doubting it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I am responsible for this new piece of podcast furniture
agenda sogenda is vernacular that we use. We do when
we're talking about put that on the agenda. Usually it's
before we have dinner. I used this with a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Of groups, so a portmanteau it is of and agenda.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's not really clear why our agenda has anything to
do with the vagina, but it does. Sometimes we actually
have a vagenda notesapp going we do for dinner where
we put the things in.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, because I'm just like a group of women talking
about some things, they have some things on the vergenda.
Yeah right, it's tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to
be thought of this series. Well. Anyway, on our agenda
for today, if you haven't heard about the wedding of
the year that's happening in Venice this week, you won't
be able to miss it. Pretty soon, Amazon founded Jeff
Bezos and astronaut Lauren Sanchez and making it official, and
(03:21):
we are going to unpack the twenty seven dresses, the protests,
and the affair that kicked it all off.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
What you have heard of friends is let them. And
if you came to our Mama Maya out loud live show,
you've also heard a foul mouthed version of that. But
there's a new one. There's a new let them. It's
called who says, Oh, we're going to tell you about that?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
And Jamila Jamil is done being interviewed by other women.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Does she kind of have a point?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
But first, if your dad was a Russian billionaire, would
you expect a cut of his fortune?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I think my dad is the opposite of a Russian billionaire.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No fortune coming for you. What about if you'd never
even met him? I want you to meet this guy
called Pavel Durov. Now he founded the controversial messaging platform Telegram.
You might have heard about him. He got arrested in
France a while ago. He's a little bit dubious, but anyway,
he is worth a rumored twenty one billion Australian dollars
and He also, like other billionaires, really really really likes
(04:19):
father and kids. Apparently between the kids his father in
what you might call the conventional way with a partner,
and the sperm donation that he kind of advertised, like
want to have my baby, come and do it. He
reckons he's got more than one hundred children, and so
far that's quite typical. There are quite a few of
these guys that called pro natalists, who believe that smart
(04:39):
masters of the universe, like themselves, should breed more. But
what's a bit different about him is that he's gone
public saying that in about thirty years he's going to
split his entire fortune between all of the children. So
the more than one hundred children, whether they are children
that he has fathered actively or just the sperm donory ones,
that will probably mean, depending on how many more he has,
(05:02):
that these kids will get about two hundred and sixty
million each.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So what he's done this is really interesting. He's essentially
gamified it and it'll now become like a hunger game
situation among women who want to have children and have
access to that kind of life. The lottery.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, there is this term that I learned over the
weekend called accidental incest, which is being referred to because
you do have some sperm donors who are donating so
much and creating so many kids. There was an instance
in Australia where woman was talking about it where she
said that people that were half siblings were finding each
(05:43):
other at parties not knowing that they were half siblings.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Did you watch that documentary The Man with one hundred
Children a thousand? That was about exactly this. And there
are these men, the pro natalists or whatever their issue
is or their reasoning for it, is that they are
just spreading their sperm literally everywhere. And most sperm banks
in most countries and states have limitations on how many
(06:07):
times you can donate for this exact way, because in
a particular town, for example, you can't have too many
kids that are around the same age they might you know,
hook up. But these men get around it by going
to different countries because there's not like one international sperm
bank that regulates these things. So it's a real issue.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I'm worried about the proliferation of these precise genes right
because it's like, what are we genetically privileging? If you're
a pro natalist you're a particular type of person. Think
about Elon Musk. What does that do to the human race?
If you've got a very specific type of man who
is fathering hundreds and hundreds of children like that is
worrying going forward.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Jamila Jamil is.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Done being interviewed by women. Jamil is a thirty nine
year old actress. People might know her from The Good Place.
She was in that, but she's more so known as
a body positivity advocate. She was very vocal when the
Kardashians were spooking their dietees, and she hosted a podcast
called Iway with Umila Jamil, which was very very popular. Recently,
(07:11):
she was actually a guest on No Filter. She was
in Australia.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I have seen her in The Good Place. She was
great in that, but more people would probably know her
from Instagram. She's a feminist, well, she's identified as a
feminism and speaks out about all different kinds of things.
She's very outspoken on.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
A bit of a commentator.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, and over the weekend she published a sub stack
with the subject line I think I'm done being interviewed
by women. I am disgusted, and she says her trust
has been broken for the last time after a toothy
opinion piece in the UK Times, which we're going to
get to in a moment, but after being interviewed in
print for more than seventeen years, she says she's only
been treated fairly by women three times, where she says
(07:50):
that male journalists have always given her a fair shot.
When she read the profile, which was written to promote
schod new podcast out called Wrong Turns and a Pixar
movie called Elio where she voices one of the characters,
she said it was like reading the gossip section of
her Wikipedia page. She said it was cheap and bit
she intended to embarrass her. And we don't interview men
(08:10):
like this, opening with paragraphs about all of their controversies. Holly,
before we go any further, can you give us a
sense of our primary source here the Times piece? What
was the vibe of the Times piece?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yes, so it was written by a journalist called Liz Edwards,
and Jamala Jamil makes the point in her piece that
usually she's a travel writer at the time, so that's
kind of true. She does do a lot of travel content.
But one of the things that is eye opening about
this really is that when I read it. It didn't
strike me as particularly toothy, but I see Jamala's points.
So here's just a taste of it.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So the first thing is is that the online headline
is Jamala Jamil I stood up for Megan long before
I met her, referencing Meghan Markle. It has a different
headline in the actuals. I think it's from the magazine
from Sunday Time with magazine, and it starts like this,
It says Jamala Jamal says she does not need your approval.
I don't personally like that many people, so I think
it's ridiculous for me to expect other people like me,
(09:06):
says the thirty nine year old TV presenter Da Da
Da Da Da. Talk about her social media rows, as
they say, and they cherry pick a few comments when
she called a famous actor a freshly wanked cock, for example,
and she said some pissy things about several people. And
then the writer says, all of this might mean you'd
expect her to be prickly company, but she's more cats
(09:28):
poor than cactus spikes. She's in velvet. She's funny and
self aware and disarmingly polite to me, to the hotel
bar staff, whose best efforts at finding us at the
quiet table come to nothing, and to the waiters.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So this to any journalist, they're establishing color right like,
they're giving you a sense of the person. This is
what profiles do. She goes on to talk about what
she's wearing, what she looks like. She says that she
looks great in what she's wearing. It takes a bit
of a turn. The writer talks about some of Jamila
Jamil's stated life story, which is she says she has
(10:00):
had several different health issues, She's struggled with the eating disorder,
She's been in two different car accidents. And the rider
seems to be saying a lot of things have happened
to Jamila.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Which the writer isn't the first person to say that.
There's been enormous controversy and kind of an internet massive
discussion about whether or not some of those claims are true.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, And the journalist brings up, for example, a spat
I guess a social media spat she had with Piers Morgan,
and Jamil says, I have no interest in even continuing
this line of conversation. Jamil now says, coolly, echoed by
alarmed murmurs from her publicists at the next table, foolishness
is something we should discourage in the media. She records
our whole conversation, if I go down in flames, I
(10:40):
want to go down in flames based on my own words,
not via made up nonsense. And then, and this line
is one that Jamela particularly took issue with. The writer says,
the clause retract and congeniality resumes. As we chat over
the array of tapas that arrives.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
The clause is are loaded. There is something sexist about that.
You would not use that terminology about a man. And
a lot of what Jamila Jamil writes is true, and
she's right, but there's an irony to it because I
thought that some of what Jamil wrote in her substack
(11:16):
was also laced with a little bit of sexism about
the writer.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Did anyone else notice that?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah. One of the things I think is hard to
unpick here is celebrity profile writing suddenly feels very different now,
and it's not as in the form is not like
the way that this article starts. Jamila Jimil says she
doesn't need to approval full stop. It's like classic magazine writing.
You start with a really pithy line, a statement, and
(11:43):
then you're building a case. Almost That's what every profile
writer does, is they meet a person, they spend some
time with them, and then they're kind of laying out
their case. And this is what Jamil takes issue with.
She says, you know, why are they always prosecuting me
and whether or not I have a right to say things,
you know, my personality rather than my work. And this
is something we've discussed on this podcast a lot. Women
(12:03):
do very often get judged much more for who they
are than what they do. One of the things I
have issue with here is I also think this is
how male profile happened to a little bit less commentary
on what they're wearing. But this is the nature of
the beast with a celebrity profile. And now that we
all speak so directly, like when Jamela, for example, was
(12:24):
on Now Filter with kateline Brook, brilliant interview, really insightful,
she is entirely presenting herself right. There's no editorializing, and
that's one of the reasons why it feels so authentic
and real, Whereas the whole point of a celebrity profile
is it as editorialized right, Maya.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I find this whole thing completely exhausting, completely exhausting. I
find to be Frank Jamila Jamil pretty exhausting. I think
she's quite typical of a certain type of online personality.
And I probably used to be a bit this myself
(13:01):
many years ago, until I made a conscious decision not
to be. It's like, you want to dish it out,
but then when someone criticizes you, despite her saying, including
in this profile, she says, perhaps this is my superpower.
It makes me untouchable and quite dangerous. I'm immune to
(13:21):
being judged because I don't care. Except she does care,
to the point where she's written this multi thousand word
takedown on substack, which is absolutely her right, and I
have to say I empathize.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
With her a lot.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
I've had profiles written of me that have made me
feel exactly like this.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I remember in the earlier years of me working with you, Mia,
I remember in our old office, an esteemed publication was
doing a profile. A journalist basically followed you around for
a couple of days, right, sat in on a few meetings,
interviews you like, this is how profiles work. Yeah, And
how how do you feel about those or did you
feel about those It's not necessarily that specific one, but
(14:00):
those pieces that sort of conceit of journalism. How did
it make you feel when you saw yourself reflected in
those eyes.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
There's a good reason they don't do them anymore, because
they have to find an angle. It's not a what's
you know called a hagiography, It's not a fluff piece. No,
And she says, why didn't she engage with me about
the issues I talk about? It's like, it's not up
to you. You're not the editor of the Times. You
don't get to decide what this journalist says about you.
(14:27):
Another one of her complaints is that this woman who
didn't know me, who didn't know anyone who knows me,
how very DAEs she write about me in this way?
And it's like, well, that's how interviews work, Like that's
actually how interviews work. And then she goes on to say, well,
I've interviewed people and this is how I do it.
What I thought about is, in this age of social media,
(14:50):
when everybody's used to being able to speak for themselves
and control the narrative, when someone else speaks about you,
it's suddenly like, how very dare you, and again I
also know how that feels too.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
If I was sitting in the editorial team for The Times,
my defense would be, it is a profile promoting Jamila Jamil.
There was a photo shoot involved in it. She was
getting something very clear out of this. It wasn't a
community service engagement, and she wasn't there being the face
of a charity. She was there promoting her work, which
is her right, and her work is a new podcast
(15:26):
called Wrong Turns. That podcast is all about failures, embarrassing moments,
perhaps vulnerabilities. Yes, what the author wrote about was thematically
not irrelevant, like you could see how even I'm a
pervert for failure or whatever was the line, It was
sort of relevant to the subject matter.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
But I think that people have really got to understand,
including people who are interviewed, is the journalist doesn't choose
the headline, doesn't choose the pool quotes. So those quotes
that come out, that's all chosen by the sub editor
or by the editor, And of course it's designed to
take the most interesting, controversial part of the interview in
(16:09):
the same way that she did that with hers by
using the very rage baity headline I'm done being interviewed
by women, which she did the exact same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That's what I take issue in a bit, because I
think she's got a lot, as we've discussed, she's got
a lot of fair points about it. It is true that
women can be very highly critical of other women. We're
very aware of that. But by doing that and taking
that headline, for a start, it makes every female journalist,
probably including myself, very defensive because you're like, well, you know,
we're not all out here trying to take people down.
(16:44):
But also it is rage bait, just in the way
that she complained that the reason that the Times Online
editor chose the Megan Markel quote, which was one tiny
bit of the interview where basically the journalist says, do
you know Megan, do hang out? And she's like no,
Like I was interviewed by I once, I defended her
publicly in the same way of defendants of women who
are criticized.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Which was a very understandable question. And I have to
say all three of us have read the original source
materials as well as Jamila Jamil's piece, and that was
in the context of her talking about how her and
her boyfriend moved to La You know She's also been
interviewed on Megan's podcast Jamila Lamil. So it wasn't a
crazy question to say, hey, did you hang out? There's
another couple there that have also moved from the UK
(17:25):
and around the same time, do you guys hang out?
It was a reasonable question and she was like, yeah,
we've had dinner a bit like.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I know, but it's been pulled as the news line,
which is what every journalist does, right as you pull
the news line the most interesting, sallacious bits.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
That's not the journalist's fault because they write the piece
and they don't know what's going to be pulled out
as the headline or as the pull quote. That's not
in their control.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So what I struggle with, and I've seen this within
feminists fears quite a bit lately, which is that someone
sees something that they think is sexist or misogynistic by
another woman, and then in the name of feminism, they
call that woman old or ugly or a pick me
girl or something, or a misogynist, which which I still go, mate,
(18:06):
you're using the same trope. So for example, there was
one line where she said, please God, may I never
find this is Jimi La Jamil Please, God, may I
never find myself middle aged dedicated to taking women trying
to do something positive in the world down a peg
or two. I hope I'm still directing my energy towards progress,
not taking the bins out for the patriarchy for a
paycheck and a pat on the head. There were lines
(18:28):
like that in it that I just thought that just
feels as though it's laced with sexism in the same way.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, there's a certain type of online feminist who I've
read described as a self aggrandizing and abrasive version of
feminism that they're peddling. So it's they'll really dish it out,
but then when it comes back to them, they cri misogyny,
they cry how unfair it is, and it's just very
I don't know, either you're in the arena or you're
(18:54):
not in the arena.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But well, yes, but not everything's fair in the arena, right,
Like I think it's fair enough to call out when
you've been misrepresented. I think it's fair enough to call
out when something's damaging or defamatory or whatever. Like, I
don't think it's fair to go in the name of
selling a TV show. You should be fair game for
all kinds.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But whole Why does she keep saying I'm immune to
being judged. I don't care what people think of me.
I don't care what people think of me. And then
there's a profile and again she talks about I did
contact the journalist. There's been no response, no apology, no deletion,
no removal of the piece. And it's like this other
media the world, this is the Internet. And if you're
going to again, if you're going to be in the arena,
(19:35):
you're probably going to get a bloody nose in the arena.
And as a woman of color, she cops so much
more than most women. And it's true, she gets trolled.
Every woman online does she does that little.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Bit more well, and outspoken women do cop it more.
And I think that you could read a profile on
someone like Harvey Weinstein and he wouldn't be described as controversial.
Like controversial every woman in the public eye is described.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's true. Even the word outspoken. How often do you
hear Troman being described as outspoken. I think there's a
lot of truth in what she says. It just really
riles me that in saying it, she has smeared a
whole lot of women in a moment the new theory
that challenges MeTL robins Let them friends? Why do you
(20:23):
wear a bra?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Because I'd hit myself in the face if I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, so that my boobs don't hurt yourself?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Well, yeah, because it's I.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Feel uncomfortable, although I also feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
So the reason I'm asking this question is because of
a story that I just read. It's an important part
in this column I just read by the Herald journalist
Kate Halfpenny about a counterpoint to the let them obsession.
She is writing in defense of the who says theory
and let me explain the bra bit. She opens with
the story of a friend who was complaining that her
(20:55):
bra was cutting into her shoulders right, and a friend
who was with her said that she never wears a bra,
particularly in winter when you've got five layers on, like
who knows whether your boobs are down round your waist
or up near your chin, and said, why would you
wear one unless you were meeting the bank manager. The conversation,
Kate writes, spurred Amy to do two things. First, abandon
(21:17):
a bra unless she's working out. Second, ask why it
took her until she was forty to question doing something
every day that she hated. Now she asks who says
when making decisions, Who says you have to wear a
wretched undergarment just to create a pleasing silhouette. Who says
you have to have porridge if you want pancakes? Who
says you have to behave mia. Let them was your
(21:41):
word of the year this year, but your relationship with
it has changed.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I think that this idea of let them is very
linked with passivity, and that can sometimes be a good
thing because we can twist ourselves into notts about things
we can't change people in our lives, geopolitical situations, and
so let them was just basically the only thing you
can control is how you feel about a situation. We
sort of started to talk we talked about on the
(22:06):
show about Michelle. Obama brought a slightly different energy, which
is a little bit more fuck em, which is kind
of like, you don't have to be all sort of
Buddhist and zen about these terrible things that are happening,
or these people that you don't like, all these situations
that you're not comfortable with. You can actually be a
little bit more burn it down.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah. I think that when we say let them.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I've tried. I've tried.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
I'm not being honest with myself for others.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
I sometimes you do need a little bit more venom,
which is why I think fuckham has really helped. I'm
not going to do anything like I think that Jimila
Jamial probably should have said fuck him and then like
quietly to yeah, just quietly to herself, for example, rather
than going into that fight mode, which is you know,
totally understandable as well. But I really liked the who
(22:55):
says theory because who says I can't wear a shirt
with a bleached stain on it?
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I have two bleach stains on this shirt.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I just who says I can't wear the same jeans
and the same shoes to work every day?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Who says I have to wax or lays in my
bikini line?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It's funny. When I was going through the who says though,
I went, oh.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Maya, like, it's true that this is what Kate for one?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Who says that I can't wear the same James to
wake everything?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Kate Halfpenny was riding about that. Increasingly, it feels like
there's an army of people on the Internet giving us
more rules, like more rules all the time, rules about
your face, rules about your food, rule camelte, rules about
your gene shape, rules about your socks, ruled about shoes.
And she's like, we all absorb them and then constantly
feel like we're wrong. And she's like, the anecdote about
(23:43):
the bra is kind of like, obviously, if it's for
your comfort, go for it. But if it's just because
the world has decided there should be something between your
nipples and your outer garments. Who says, I like this
energy and I should have written this bloody story because
I have a post it on the wall of my
office that says, you don't have to and it is
(24:03):
like my little mantra because for.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Someone with that post at Hollywayen right, you things that
you don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
I know, but you know how it's supposed to be
my year of not which is clearly going on really
really well. But as me and well as you guys
know very well, I don't like feeling like I have
to do things, and I get a lot of freedom
when I can reframe it. It's like, you don't have to,
but you're choosing to, even if it's kind of bush.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So I sometimes get this phrase in my head, you're
not the boss of me. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's like that. So it's like I don't have to
be governed by my group chats. I don't have to
like look forty when I'm fifty. I don't have to
say yes to everything everyone asked me to do. That
would make so life easier. It's like who says, who says?
It's a little bit toddler though, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (24:50):
It's very two year old.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I don't think it always is, because sometimes it's just
about really challenging your own internalized preconceptions, because you're right,
you're like, well, who says and apart from me says like, well, why,
I remember once interviewing someone and I can't even remember
how it came up because I'm soogynist, and I was
asking her about VPL Remember when that was the thing
(25:13):
visible panty line?
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Oh you've never never taken that a.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Long time ago, And she's just like, well, who says
it has to be something that you're ashamed of? Who
says it's something that you should have to try and hide?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
See, I think that my mantra is a little bit
it's none of my business, Like my VPL. My visible
panty line, which I know I have, is none of
my business because I can't say, only you can.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
But then you bring it up, and that's who says.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
Then I says, Mia says after the break, We've got
some scarless gossip about Katie Perry. Every Tuesday and Thursday
we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out
Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers. Follow the
link in the show notes to get your daily dose
of Out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
(25:55):
who is already subscribed.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Friends, I would never engage in scroless gossip. I'm above it,
unlike you to. However, the news is bleak. There is
a lot going on in the world keeping me and
others up at night, and so I would like for
just one moment to reflect upon Katy Perry's alleged separation
from Orlando Bloom, for which we have little to note proof.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Are you ready will allow how alleged is it?
Speaker 4 (26:24):
Sources? Tell people? Okay, can you give me a percentage
on that?
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh, People magazine, People Magazine.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, it's pretty solid.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's pretty much like a publicist making an announcement. Great, Okay,
that's or you make announcement on the notes app.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Great, Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
So the pair met in twenty sixteen and then in
twenty seventeen they actually had a year long break, but
then they got back together. They had a daughter who
can remember her name Daisy, Yes, because she brought the
Daisy to space.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Wasting my brain cells. Since nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Five, there are reports that Orlando Bloom mocked Katy Perry's
space flight.
Speaker 5 (26:59):
Very dare he?
Speaker 4 (27:00):
How dare he?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Because he would have gone up there in a heartbeat?
Are you telling me that Orlando Bloom would have said no?
Like he is so a go to space guy?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Is this the story that the reason they've broken up
is he was embarrassed by that.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
So there are a few reasons.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
One is that they got into a fight about the
spaceflight and he said, I told you not to do it,
I told you they'd be BackFlash and you didn't listen
to me. Apparently that fight happened in the middle of
the night, which I just feel like is an important tatail.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So the leak's here are the house staff?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Okay, we've got.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
It, or Daisy.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
The second thing is there are reports that he is
going to the Bezos wedding without her.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Because she's in Australia tour Australia.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
She was at Laurence hend she was exactly and she
can't go because she's in Australia and she's mad because
she's like, Orlando, you're having a go at me for
doing Blue Origin, but you're going to Lauren's wedding.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
So apparently that's created a.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Bit different going to wedding and going to Spain.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
But apparently they're not even Orlando's friends, they're her friends.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
No, I wouldn't be happy.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So then sources told People earlier this month that the
reception of her new album and reviews of the tour
has caused tension in her relationships.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Still having a.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Great year, She's not.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Everyone, including lots of that lauders who've been to the
show in Australia say it's great. Just in a quick
I've heard Katy Perry.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I've heard that too.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
I have just a bit of relationship advice looking at this,
and I think it's just a bit of wisdom that
we can all live by. You got to choose someone
who'd stay with you through Blue Origin. Yes, look at
your partner and go if I had my Blue Origin moment,
which we all will.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
But he has he has stayed with her past that,
so people can't directly link the two.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It was five minutes ago.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I also think it could have been the final straw.
They both talked a lot about how hard it is
to be married.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I think she stayed with him. Who remembers that disastrous
interview he did speaking of profiles, speaking of profile pieces
that paint people in a bad light. Or Lando Bloom,
who last time I checked was a male. He got
slammed after he did this is my day in the
life profile, and it was like I wake up at
dawn and I measure all my sleep apps, and then
(28:59):
I play with Lego while I do my body's chanting,
and then I do twenty five steps in my skincare routine.
And he got slammed. And did she stand there? Yes,
she did.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
All you can't back.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Away because it's damaging for you brand. It's not okay.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
You know what's hard for Katie If she's in therapy
right now and she's talking about, like I did this
Blue Origin thing, blah blah blah, and if her therapist
was to say, who says it was frivolous and out
of touch everyone. Everyone don't play the who says game Katie,
it is not a good time to be playing.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I I think she has to say fuck them.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
I think it's fucking for her anyway.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are getting married in Venice,
Italy this week, and the city's locals are pissed. This
is kind of part of a broader protest movement that's
happening around Europe about over tourism. I don't know if
you've heard.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's been fortunate for me. I'm about to be a
tourist in your.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
You might be sprayed with water pistols, I've heard.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You know, last week the Louver closed in Paris because
the staff said there's too many people coming, were overwhelmed,
were stressed, mental health is suffering, we're not working today.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
Why do you think tangent?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
But why do you think over tourism is more of
an issue now than it was ten years ago?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
For example, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I would like to blame Instagram ah as part of it.
In that for example, at the Louver, everybody wants to
go and get their selfie with the Mona Lisa. Do
they give a shit about the Mona Lisa or not.
Probably not.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
It's probably still part of the post COVID boom, I
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, and there's also that, so no one could travel
for a couple of years, and now everybody can if
they've got the disposable income to do it. And you know,
flights are cheap in certain parts of the world, and
so maybe that. But also back to Jeff and yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
This is a huge, huge deal. The protests are just
one aspect of this whole situation. But if you've been
hearing about Lauren Sanchez Jeff Bezos, obviously you'll be familiar
with him. He is the third wishest man in the world.
He's sixty one years old, and he founded Amazon.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
And if you're struggling to place them, remember the Trump inauguration.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Were they there?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Remember when he had all that He had all the
tech billionaires sitting in a row, and Lauren wore a
very eye catching top. And most of the headlines at
the inauguration were actually about Lauren Sanchez's boobs and how
Mark Zuckerberg was looking at them, rather than about anything else.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's true, she's fifty five and their origin story Blue
origin is very interesting. Actually, he was previously married to
Mackenzie Scott for twenty five years since their divorce, and
she got many billions of dollars. She was instrumental when
he found out Amazon. She was very much involved in that,
and she got a huge payout when they divorced. They
had four kids together, and she's gone on to give
(31:40):
most of that away. She's an incredible philanthropist. Laurence Sanchez
is a third generation Mexican American. She is a journalist
and she was previously married to a very big Hollywood
agent guy called Patrick Whitzel. They were married for fourteen years.
They had two kids together, and she had another child
with an NFL player long term boyfriend of hers before
(32:03):
she married Patrick. Fun fact, he's gone on to marry
an Australian. But before we get to that, the most
interesting thing is they met in twenty sixteen while married
to other people. It was at an Amazon party for
the film Manchester by Sea and at the time, Patrick
Whitesell had a few of his stars that he represented
(32:25):
in that film and both of them were married and
their friendship grew from there.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
It must have been quite the moment. I love to
think about the fireworks.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Fly wonder at weddings like this, when you do the
speeches or you do your vows and you.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Talk about whether it's love at first sight.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I wonder how much you have to cloak it when
it was a controversial meeting story, or if you just
have to own it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
No, Wow, everybody knows. And this is what's very very
interesting is that their friendship apparently deepened in twenty eighteen,
two years after meeting, when Lauren, who is a licensed
helicopter pilot, she started working with Jeff Bezos on aerial
filming projects for his space company Blue Origin. So she
goes way back with Blue Origin. So they were both
(33:09):
kind of essentially having this affair. I think we can
clearly say that in twenty nineteen, something really interesting happened.
They both suddenly announced their divorce. Divorce that's from their partners. Yeah,
Because what happened is that some very intimate texts and
photos on her phone somehow fell into the hands of
(33:29):
her brother, who then tried to sell them to the
National Enquirer.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Their hands were forced, yesly betrayal.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
There was Dick Picks involved, There were nude selfies and
one of her very famous texts do you remember this?
I love you? A live girl. He called her a
live girl, And there's a really great profile of her
in the Cut this week where they sort of interview
a lot of people who've already known her in this
idea of her being a live girl. Everyone that has
ever known her says that she's always been a hustler
(34:01):
in a good sense. But she's always incredibly charismatic, very magnetic,
the life of the party, lights up, full of energy,
wildly ambitious, never take stepbacks badly, just will always come
back and be like you know, She's done all sorts
of really interesting things in her life. So this idea
of a live girl. He then was kind of like
(34:24):
a geeky, nerdy Amazon tech billionaire.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
He's had a total rebrand.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
He glowed up. She's always been quite very glowy. I've
watched a lot of videos about her facial transformation. She's
got that very hard bodied, big fake boobs, a lot
of very noticeable plastic surgery on her face. She's fifty
five and he's become really jacked. He shaved his head.
(34:49):
So they've both really clearly share this love of what
would you call it aesthetics ypt. What do we know?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
What do we know about the wedding?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So the wedding is in vanit has discussed it costs
at least ten million, we think probably more so. The
protests are about the fact that Venice over Tauru said
it's going to close it down, blah blah blah. But
also it's about the idea of this spec to call
the uber rich while the world is burning. There were
lots of speculation that Trump might go. I imagine that
now he might be too busy. Yeah, but lots of
(35:18):
very famous people will be there. Obviously, the Kardashians will
have as strong showing. Chris Jenna will certainly be there,
that the Clooney will be there. A lot of very famous,
great and good will be there. It's all going to
be in vogue because Anna Win Tour. One of the
things I find fascinating. If you're wondering why we're telling
you about all this a it's going to be everywhere
you look by the end of this week, because this
wedding lasts for three days and it's going to be
(35:39):
on every screen because people want to distract themselves from
the terrible things going on. But one of the reasons.
I find them fascinating. My current obsession is like the
sort of women in the culture who are looming large,
and Sanchez is a really interesting one of those, because
it would have been not that long ago that there
would have been something kind of shameful gold diggery about
(36:02):
this other woman who stole Jeff Bezos away, and they
would kind of hide their light under a bushel a bit.
But Sanchez and Bezos, as you were just saying me,
have like been massively out and proud with this. And
she is a very like archetype of aspiration, like looking
the way she looks, which is not fifty five, for example,
(36:22):
the way they spend their money, which is incredibly sort
of up. There's yachts and there's It's really interesting because
I think that's not as long as her we were
out luck, we would have thought it wasn't classy, and
Anna win Tour certainly would have thought it wasn't classy.
But now she also sees which way the wind is
blowing and she's like, we will be having this wedding pan.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah. I think she does still see it as not classy.
But Anna win Tour is a survivor and she is
very savvy, and she knows that this is the new
world order. You know, in Magaworld it's not about quiet luxury.
Then you know they have a wide philanthropic arm and
she calls herself a philanthropist. She also just wrote a
(37:02):
children's book about a fly he goes to space. So
I've been watching some interviews with her of trying to
get a bit of a sense of her. She doesn't
try how it be anything that she's not. She seems
like she'd be a good time.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
My only note is I was looking at the protesters thinking,
I wonder what specifically they're protesting, And of course it
is about Venice in particular has been overrun and historic
sites have been damaged by tourists and all that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
And they're basically like.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Which has been happening long before, yes, wedding.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
But I thought, if you think that what Jeff Bezos
is doing to Venice is bad, wait until you learn
what he's been doing to the rest of the planet.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Because he is. And it's interesting that the publicity machine
has already started swinging into action. There've been lots of
stories being planted about here are all the local artisans
that they're working with and this person's made the cake,
and this local person's done this, and you know it's
going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
This is that's ironic, given that Jeff Bezos solely destroyed
local economies exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well, it's very interesting this idea of over tourism protests,
because tourism is the backbone of the economy of a
lot of these big cities. But the locals always say, well,
we can't afford to live here anymore. So you know,
we have that in our own city, like Baron Bay,
for example, there's a lot of protests about over tourism
there and about how people are being driven out and
can't afford rents anymore. So it's going to be really
(38:18):
interesting to watch. Apparently she's had twenty seven dresses commissioned
that are all pretty much cautore I would She's probably
gonna wear Oscar dela Rena. That's what she wore to
the met gala. There was a bit of a holding
nose over who would design it, and also around all
the MAGA people, but you know, Milania Trump and all
the Magas. But now the designers again have seen the
(38:40):
way the wind blows. This is incredibly lucrative for them.
Can you imagine how much publicity it's going to get
and how much money is going to be spent. She's
also been at dot Chain and Gabana. I'm sure she's
spreading the love around. If she's got twenty seven dresses
to wear.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Out louders, that's all we've got time for on our
Monday show them.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
That'sot One more thing, Jesse, I was at your house
for dinner last night. You were there. I was having
dinner with Luca and my other kids. And did you
notice anything different? This morning?
Speaker 4 (39:09):
The house was a little messy, so I knew you'd
been there.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Did you notice anything different in Luna's room? No?
Speaker 4 (39:15):
What did you do?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So? Last night I went upstairs to put it to
bed after her bath, and I went to get her
pajamas and I tried to open the drawer where the
clothes pajamas might be. It was jammed, was so stuffed
so couldn't open it. Now that might remember a while
ago again, when Jesse was out, I went through Luna's
(39:37):
clothes and that was a boundary.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I was a woman possessed last night. I reckon two
thirds of the stuff there were two drawers. Luna did
it with me. We had a great time. Two thirds
of the stuff is now bagged and put away.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Come to my hand.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Yeah, you could actually do my clothes. How you're at it?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
That sounds really.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It made me so happy. There were like newborn rashes
in there. There were a few things that went in
the bit I'm telling you want There are a few
things that I I was just like, this is just
looks like sadness to me. It has to go.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Out loud as. Please direct your anger.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Connection to that rash. I did mind, I did think
about that. I didn't check the rash she out. I
only chucked out things that were disgusting. But the things
that don't fit her anymore, I've all put away in
two huge bags in a cupboard, on top of all
the stuff I put away last time.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
So I can't remember if I said this last time,
I'll speak to you. I saved her newborn singlet from
the hospital, and I will say I have not been
able to find that stuff.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
And if that's singles got bin.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
No, she's not sentimental, you see, but.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I know some of us are very sentimental.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, No, I would have saved that because I would
have got. Oh my god, it's so small and cute.
It just you probably just haven't looked in that cupboard.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
I haven't. I actually don't know what cupboard you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I was actually more ruthless this time. Last time, I
was really nervous about overstepping boundaries, and then I told
you like a week later, and you haven't noticed. So
this time I had more confidence.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
She also hadn't noticed. Have you noticed that she'd It's
going to be.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
So much easier to get addressed.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Now you're welcome, Okay, please come over back to where
we were out louders. A big thank you to all
of you for being with us on this Monday, and
of course to our fabulous team for putting the show together.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton Fenton. In
case you hadn't heard, visit Fenton and Fenton dot com
dot au. Great stuff there.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Bye bye.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very best way to
do so. There's a link in the episode description,
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