Jay-Z And An Audacious Family PR Strategy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
mom and Mia out loud. What women are actually talking
about on Wednesday, the eleventh of December. I'm Holly Wainwright,
I'm MEA Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and on the
show today explaining the disturbing jay Z allegations that ended

(00:36):
up all over the red carpet of a massive new
Hollywood movie this week. Also, can You Copyright Your Vibe?
And the children's book I read to my kids every
night for years has just been unmasked as the primary
reason for generation anxious. Time to throw rainbow fish back, friends,
but first mea Friedman.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
In case you missed it, Get the ice cream ready,
warm up the hot water bottle. Today is the day
couples are most likely to break up.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Why. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
The eleventh of December is the most common day of
the year for couples to split, and the date was
worked out from researchers who analyzed Facebook data.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Ah, so you go from in a couple to single?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
And the December period more broadly is known as breakup season.
So even if you manage to get through today, don't
count your chickens, because it could still happen.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Well, I was going to say, the day is young.
As we're recording this, there is still half a day
for us to beat DOMP.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
And the thing could happen when I get home tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Psychotherapist and relationship expert Lyssi Abraham's told MoMA Mia that
this time period can lead to increased tension because of
all the stress that comes along with it. But we
had a few other reasons that we thought about. Maybe
you don't want to buy gifts because he lives.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yes. I also I remember this time being with someone
and thinking I don't want him to come to my
family Christmas. And if you're in a relationship with someone,
they kind of think they're coming, and it's probably a
red flag when you go I'm embarrassed to introduce you
to my family.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yes, And other people are like, I can't do one
more Christmas with her family? Yeah, and you go in.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
It's a time of change, I suppose, because I think
we're all beginning to imagine the new year and who
we want to be, and some changes we want to
make and you don't want to go into the new
year with the person you.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Want to relaunch in the new year if you've got
a bit of ick.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
I also think the festive season is quite social, so
if you want to put yourself back on the market,
you don't want to miss out on December mingling.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
No New Year's Eve, all those things you want to
because if you broke up today, it's still a good
three weeks before New Year's Eve, so it would be
socially acceptable for you to be flirting. Hear us off
yew Year's Eve party, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
The good news is that breakups on Christmas Day drop
super dramatically because I guess no one wants to be
that dick.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Who's got time for that. Jay Z has won twenty
four Grammys, he sold one hundred and forty million records,
He was the first hip hop billionaire, now worth a
reported two point five billion US dollars, and of course
he's mister Beyonce Knowles. And now he is also a
man who has been accused of child rape in the

(03:13):
most controversial of circumstances. If you've seen those headlines, here's
a quick explainer before we go into how all this
disturbing mess ended up on the red carpet of the
latest Lion King movie. Jay Z's real name is Sean Carter,
and here's long time mates with another Sean Sean Coombs,
otherwise known as p Diddy, who is currently in prison

(03:34):
in Brooklyn denied bail. He keeps offering fifty million dollars
bail to get out while he awaits trial. He's on
criminal charges of sex trafficking, racketeering, and transportation to engage
in prostitution. That court case is going to start in
May next year, and it's going to be huge and harrowing.
At the same time, more than one hundred and twenty

(03:56):
cases of sexual misconduct and assault involving Diddy are being
filed through civil court, mostly through one lawyer, a guy
named Tony Busby, who we will get to in a minute.
As we discussed a few weeks ago, charges brought through
civil court bear a lower burden of proof than criminal
cannot carry a jail term, and are often settled with

(04:16):
a financial payout. Many of the cases around Diddy center
around the so called free coughs that he held for decades,
basically sex parties that involved drugs, sex workers being paid
to perform, and allegedly the abuse of many of the
women in attendance. But what happened this week is that
for the first time, one of those civil claims named

(04:39):
jay Z. An unnamed woman says that jay Z and
Coombs drugged and raped her when she was thirteen years
old and at an after party following the two thousand VMAs.
The case also alleges that a famous woman named in
the case as Celebrity B watched the assault take place. Now,
this particular accusation isn't new. It was filed in October,

(05:01):
but at the time it only named Diddy and then
referred to Celebrity A and Celebrity B as having also
been in the room. But on Monday, Celebrity A was
named as jay Z. Now it's not a surprise that
at some point Carter was going to be implicated in
the Kumb's case. The pair have been friends for decades,
have been in business together, and Carter was a fixture

(05:21):
at many of Kuhm's parties. And he was clearly prepared
because he came out swinging immediately, saying that he'd been
blackmailed by an unscrupulous lawyer who had demanded money, or
he would name that Jay was celebrity.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
A That statement was quite extraordinary, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
It was. It's long and angry, and it says, among
other things, my lawyer received a blackmail attempt called a
demand letter from a lawyer. He puts lawyer in inverted
commas named Tony Busby. What he had calculated was the
nature of these allegations and the public scrutiny would make
me want to settle, No, sir, it had the opposite effect,

(05:57):
exclamation mark. It made me want to expose you for
the fraud you are in a very public fashion. So no,
I will not give you one redpenny. These allegations are
so heenous in nature that I am iplaw you to
file a criminal complaint, not a civil one. Whomever would
commit such a crime against a minor should be locked away.
Would you not agree these alleged victims would deserve real

(06:19):
justice if that were the case.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
What did you guys think of this statement?

Speaker 3 (06:23):
I had never seen a celebrity denial like this. This
was different in a lot of ways. It was such
a strong denial firstly, but the other thing is that
not only did it discredit the lawsuit, but it went
really hard on the lawyer, which you don't often see.
And there's a reason that he took aim at Buzzby,
and the reason is that he is known as having

(06:46):
a really aggressive way of forcing settlements and that can
be to go to the person privately and reveal and
he's admitted this, try and put a whole lot of
embarrassing things out there and kind of go if you
don't set or we're going to make this public. He
is really interested in high profile cases. He was involved
in the Travis Scott Astro world. I think it was

(07:07):
like a class action suit. Remember that there was a
concert and there was a crowd surge and members of diect.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, is this something that I have a bit of
a This is tricky and again many things can be
true at once, which adds to the complexity of this.
That doesn't mean his victims aren't real, and it doesn't
mean what happened didn't happen. And yes, also jay Z
is entitled to the presumption of innocence until he's found
guilty in a court. All of those things are true,

(07:35):
and mediation is usually what's recommended before you go to court.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
I think it's worth noting though, that this is not
a Gloria Alred. There are cases where it's a really
respected lawyer who fights for you know, women's rights, victims rights,
And again, you're absolutely right. But what's interesting about this
lawyer is even I was looking at him, he's got
quite a high profile. He has political aspirations, and on
his Instagram profile he has like, I've won ten billion

(08:02):
dollars in damages. So what jay Z is trying to
say here about money and a civil case as opposed
to the federal charges that are against Diddy is an
interesting one. Buzzby has also set up a one eight
hundred number for people who are accusing Diddy or anyone
else of particular crimes.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
So they're soliciting for women to come forward, and there
is some criticism, And now there's argubardi between jay Z's
high profile lawyer who just was representing Alec Baldwin and
has represented Elon mask. There's Argubardie now of him saying
you're literally enticing these women to lie for money. But
don't you think it's also as Mia says, in fact,

(08:44):
that the two things can be true. There's the truth
for money exactly, because this might also be the victims
of Diddy over many years. This might be their only
chance to get anything that looks like some kind of
justice because it's not all going to go through legal court.
And I mean did he is facing undoubtedly jail time,
but all of these individual women, the civil route might

(09:07):
be their only way to get something like.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
And the fact that there are so many women we've
seen even with Bill Cosby, Like there's power in that
solidarity with a lot of women coming together and telling
the same story.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
And also how class actions work.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, and like let's not forget as you were saying,
Holly jay Z is worth two point five billion dollars,
how do you not take a man like that down?
But how do you even accuse a man like that
without the power of someone like this lawyer. So a
lot of people are kind of going into his backstory
and looking at some questionable things. And so I understand

(09:43):
why that was part of the pr strategy to be like,
not only am I saying I didn't do it, Not
only am I saying I'm thinking of all victims. But
if this were true, then why wouldn't you go for
something bigger than just money? But it's also saying this
lawyer cannot be trusted.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
There are two ways of looking at that statement that
Jay Z released, that was very long, that was clearly
not vetted by PR people because it was full of
exclamation marks. It did a couple of things. It centered
his denial, like almost above the accusation, because it meant
that his denial had to be pretty much published in full.

(10:23):
He got to say a lot of things in that denial,
and he got to it could be said, he got
to smear the lawyer. He got to make accusations of
his own against the lawyer, and in a lot of
the coverage, as I've read, a lot of media put
that before the actual charges. So it really did center
his defense. And there's something called DAVO, which is a

(10:46):
tactic that's often used by a perpetrator or an alleged perpetrator.
It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim offender. You deny
that you did it, you attack someone. If you can't
attack the victim, you attack the lawyer, and you reverse,
so you make it seem like you're the victim. So, yes,
I've been attacked. He's coming after me because I've got money.

(11:07):
This is a blackmail attempt, and suddenly the narrative is
very different. That's what you would do if it was true,
and that's what you would also do if it was
not true.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Because the thing that I first saw was that jay
Z had been accused, and that is enormous, enormous news.
He is one of the most powerful, richest men in America,
Like that is really really big. But I think that
the reason why this has been such a big deal
is because he had actually sued prior to all of
this coming out, So that had been happening privately.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Do you mean jay Z had tried to yes, Sue, Yes.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
So that had been happening under the name John Doe. Yes,
that had been happening behind the scenes. Which brings us
to Celebrity B. So we knew that there was another celebrity.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Who is named Celebrity B exactly.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Which is that there was a woman in the room
and that has been a point of enormous discussion and
speculation about who that might be because it's which is awful,
Which is awful, but I also get it because this
is to me, this is like a Jeffrey Epstein level

(12:14):
lifting the lid on this subculture it's like we assume
the worst of celebrities anyway. These are the most powerful
people in the world, and the accusations I'm so boring.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
I don't think we assume the worst of all celebrities.
I don't. But I think if you've been best friends
with p Diddy for thirty years, when these allegations have
been widely known within the industry for a really long time,
and now when you see what the criminal charges are
against Diddy over decades, and you see what we all
saw with that footage of him beating up his ex
girlfriend Cassie, you would have to say there are some

(12:51):
doubts cast over how much you did or didn't know
one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
The thing that troubles me about the celebrity b obsession
and I've heard all the same rumors that everyone listening
to this I'm sure has heard, and that been circulating
around the internet, around the office about who that is
and why that might be and blah blah blah. Is
that beyond the fact that jay Z, as you say,
one of the richest most powerful men in America in
pop culture currency, The fact that he's married to Beyonce

(13:16):
is as interesting as anything else right. We joke that
on out loud we like to refer to male celebrities,
but which women they're married to. So in my mind,
I mean, I think I can't think of any of
his songs. Well I can because I'll go into that later.
But he's also missed a Beyonce right and that. So
this also spins into the celebrity fallout from this, which

(13:36):
was then immediately on display on this red carpet the
following day. Because timing is everything, the story got released
on Monday our time, Sunday their time, and immediately there
was a whuha because Tina Noles, Beyonce's mum, very famous mum,
appeared to like a post from a news outlet that

(13:57):
reported it. So everyone was like, whoa, can we pause
on that?

Speaker 3 (14:00):
What do we think happened? Because she's come out and
said she was hacked?

Speaker 1 (14:03):
She and she.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Immediately said she was hacked, which is a modern classic.
That's what you do. You like a post by mistake,
and then you say it wasn't me, I was hacked.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Because everyone gets hacked just so that someone can like
random posts.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
But you think it might be more of a boomer issue.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
I do, because at first I went, oh, my goodness,
this makes him look guilty. This looks like Beyonce's mother
has been sitting on this for ages, and she's like,
finally he's been outed. And then I learned a little
bit about our friend Tina, she's seventy and some of
her social media behavior, and I went, oh, no, if

(14:37):
this were my mum, she would absolutely accidentally like this post.
Not accidentally, she would like it because she thinks it
means that she's telling people she's seen it. Yeah, so
it's sort of buying it off as checks I've seen this,
or I'm sending jay Z love or whoever.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
So to complicate things, and I agreed, is a modern classic.
I have been hacked. My social media has been hacked
and someone tweeted something embarrassing about me from my account.
This is back in the day of Twitter. So look,
there's plausible deny.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
They already there.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
She could have been hacked, but I don't think it's
probably more like a hay Boomer situation.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Tina says, I don't play when it comes to my family,
which basically she means she doesn't gossip about it. Was
she doesn't, She says, if you see so if you
see anything like this from me, No, it wasn't me,
which is also quite a good cloak. But Mia then
we come to the Red Carpet because the following day
one of the biggest holiday movie releases comes out, Mafassa,
which is a Lion King spinoff, and both Beyonce and

(15:37):
Her and jay Z's daughter Blue Ivy have roles in
that movie. They have speaking, singing roles in that movie.
So the Red Carpet, they're there, and does jay Z
go the day after he has been accused of a
Heenus crime and vehemently denied it. Of course he does, Maya,
what was that about?

Speaker 1 (15:54):
That is a rich text if you watch the coverage
of that Red carpet, It is a rich text for
so many reasons. Blue Ivy has a starring role in
this movie, Mafasa. It's a sort of sequel to The
Lion King, and she plays the daughter of I think
Nala and Simp. So this was her time to shine.
This is her moment. This is kind of like Apple

(16:14):
Martin at the Debutante Ball, except she actually did a
thing instead of just wearing a dress and turning up.
She's twelve and she's wearing this incredible gold princess gown.
She looks incredible, she's very tall. And the reason it's
such a rich text. Before jay Z even arrives on
the red carpet is that usually Beyonce doesn't do red carpets.

(16:36):
She usually has her own paparazzi photographer. She comes either
right at the end, her photographer takes photos and releases them,
and she doesn't pose next to anyone. She's very, very
particular about what she does. She's earned that right. But
as any mother of a tween or teen daughter will
recognize the body language. If you watch the not just
the still photos, but the footage of this blue Ivy's

(16:58):
on the red carpet on her own, looking amazing, and
then Beyonce like apologetically scurries just to stand next to her.
She's in a much smaller dress so as not to
upstage her. She looks super proud. But there's all of that,
and then jay Z arrives and when you look at
the rictus grin on Beyonce's face, she's at work, she's

(17:21):
supporting her daughter, she's doing what she needs to do.
She looks like I can't even explain how she looks,
and then jay Z's trying to be like cool and
they're all trying to be like yep, we're just a
happy family. Nothing to see here.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
There's a world in which he didn't go to that right, Like,
I mean, it would have been given what had just happened,
but I suppose that maybe given also that he's come
out swinging so hard, it was very important that he
was there.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
There's a world in which the publicist for that movie,
the poor publicist for that movie, got her wish or
his wish, And yeah, jay Z wasn't on that carpet,
but it was a very again a rich text. It
was giving everybody a very big message that beyonces behind him,
Blue Ivy is behind him. They have nothing to hide,
they have nothing to be ashamed of.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
And that that and this is what his statement was about,
that his family the victims here, that he has had
to sit down with his children, as he said.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, he mentioned Blue Ivy not by name, but one
of my daughters is old enough that was clearly Blue Ivy.
I mean he put her in there. Yeah, So it
was again plausible if you've been accused of something that
you didn't do. But it is also an example of
Davo h when the real victim here is Blue Ivy
who's going to have her premiere ruined, and my family

(18:34):
and me, and then Tina Noles was also on the
red carpet, like you could, honestly, they could write dissertations
about this red carpet.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
And the real victim, obviously is the alleged victim.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
And the optics of jay Z there to support his
twelve year old daughter in this role when the alleged
victim in this case was thirteen like a child, I
think is startling.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
There's something I can't stop thinking about. Right, There's a
song by jay Z called four forty four, which my
daughter plays in the car all the time because my
daughter's really interrupt music. I don't know why she just is.
And I obsess over this song because it's all about
what a shit he's been, and it's an open letter
to Beyonce this song, right. It was released in twenty seventeen,
after Lemonade, After Lemonade, after she released her album about

(19:17):
what a shit husband he was, he then released his
own but in it some of the lyrics are.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
And if my children known, I don't even know what
I would do a thing look at me to.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Say, I will probably die with all the Shane. My
heart breaks for the day I have explained my mistakes
and the mask goes away.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
With Becky with the good hair.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
I't think so, do you know what about something else?
Because people might remember as well. We did an episode
of Canceled recently on Beyonce. It was tongue in cheek
and about a lot of the conspiracy theories, but of
course the lift incident with Solange. So they were in
an elevator leaving the met Gala, leaving the met Gala,

(20:01):
and I think he spoke to someone at the met
Galla and they think that something went off. Bet Solange
physically attacked him in an elevator. And what was most
interesting to a lot of people was that Beyonce was
in the elevator in the corner and didn't interrupt.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Didn't she just stood there and he also took it.
What I didn't realize also reading about this, is that
he's a fair amount older than her. There's photos going
around of him when he was twenty eight with a
whole lot of other dudes that were at a Destiny's
Child concert and she was sixteen. The story that they
tell is that they met when she was eighteen, and

(20:35):
they were just friends for a year and a half,
and they only started dating when she was nineteen. I
don't know how many thirty year olds want to be
friends with eighteen year old hot young women. But anyway,
I didn't realize that she had been with him since
she was nineteen. She have her entire adult life, She's
never really had any other boyfriends.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
And that's what that song is about. And he talks
in it about mena jatoires and all the things that, like,
there's a lot of shit has gone on in that
life and that.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Relationship in a moment, Can you copyright a vibe? One
influencer seems to think so, and to tell you all
about it after the break? Can you copyright a vibe?
Sandra E Garcia wrote a very thought provoking piece in
The New York Times this week all about a lifestyle

(21:24):
influencer named Sidney Gifford. Gifford lives in Minnesota, and she
posts about her home and fashion. And if you scroll
through her Instagram account, which has more than three hundred
thousand followers, you'll find reels of white and beige. Home
wears white and beige clothes, white and beige shoes. I'm
not being snarky. That is literally her aesthetics.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Talk on Monday, didn't we about how color has disappeared,
particularly from homes? And that sounds that's her.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
You know you call it a neutral palette.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yes, she is all neutral palette. Every now and then
she does a jewelry flat lay. But she has a
very clear and intentional look. But then something strange happened
to Gifford. So a photo popped up and it was
published by another influencer named Alyssa. Sheel Strangely, she actually
knew Alyssa. They had met up, I think a year

(22:14):
or two before to do you know how influences sometimes
get together and gone make content. Anyway, they'd gone and
done that. Apparently it was a bit awkward. It was
a bit weird, and Alyssa had blocked her and gone
their separate ways. But a friend then sends her Alyssa's
content and says, this is identical to yours. And she
is struck by a post by Shiel where there's an

(22:35):
oversized beige cable nit sweater. She has her hair parted
in exactly the same way in the center her pose
is identical, and Gifford is like foot forward, Yes, a
jutted out hip. And she she's saying, this is identical
to something I posted a few days ago. She claims
that Shiel had been mimicking her online persona and appropriating

(22:57):
her look, her natural beige cream aesthetic. She was using
the same fonts, she was using the same camera angles,
and she even replicated her haircut and apartment. And this
one did get me. She got the same tattoo on
the same spot on her byfap.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Taking the piss.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
It was on her side until just now.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, it's like a flower tattoo and like she died
her hair and stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Anyway, she says, single white female. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
She says that the imitation is costing her money. And
this is interesting because she spends a lot of time
curating her Amazon storefront. So basically she buys a lot
of homewares, say, and then she markets those products to
her audience. So it's an affiliate link. Yeah, it's an
affiliate link, so people might not understand what that means.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
So if you like my shorts, click on this link
to buy them, and then she gets a little percentage
of the cost of the shorts if you do buy them.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, so what giff That is doing is seeking up
to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in damages for
lost income and mental anguish. Why I'm finding this case
interesting is because, as The New York Times puts it,
it gets to the heart of social media influence. Garcia writes,
the very nature of successful trendsetting requires there's some degree

(24:09):
of replication, and depending on what comes of the lawsuit,
it could set an important precedent for influencers and how
they present themselves online. Maya, can you copyright a vibe?
Or is social media just constant replication? Isn't that what
social media is copying each other?

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, that's what trends are. That's how algorithms work. That's
how you get fed more and more of what you like.
And I don't know. Some people have a really strong
sense of their own style. I'm very porous when it
comes to my style. Whoever I'm sort of looking at,
I will start to emulate them. You know how some

(24:46):
people will talk in accents when they're in other countries,
and some people say that's really affected, But I do
it subconsciously. I've said before when I was hanging around Asher,
and on the set of Strife, I started dressing like
Asher and Ash's character Evelyn in Strife, which was like
suits and sneakers, and that was a particular aesthetic I suppose,

(25:09):
like with Trinny, I was wearing I love always won
a lot of sequence. But I'm very influenced now. Addressed
like a kind of an eccentric grandpa is my vibe.
It's sort of a Copenhagen style. Why hagen Hagen, I
don't know how you say it.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Am in Gifford's defense though, right the Amazon storefront thing
is a limited market. If you both share a picture
of the same white T shirt and I'm going to
affiliate link by one of them, then there is only
room for so many of you. So if I buy
Hollies and not yours, then I've cost you money.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
But it's like a hall of mirrors because if the
point of influence is to monetize that influence by people
copying whatever it is that you are wearing, what you've bought,
what you're doing, then of course you're going to have
lots of little clones out there who are then going
to market to their It's like kind of like a

(26:02):
pyramid scheme. I guess in a way, that's what influencing
is one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
I was going to say, isn't that the whole point
of influencer is that you're like, you see somebody's lovely
beije home and you go, well, I'm about to decorate.
I think I'll decorate like that. I mean, that's the
point of it.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
I think too that Amazon. I read this article. It
was in The Verge by Mia Sato, and it went
into how a lot of these Amazon storefront things work,
and Amazon actually tells influencers what they want you to promote.
So the fact that every influencer you follow is telling
you to buy the same Bucle armchair is not a coincidence.

(26:38):
It's because Amazon is saying, let's put this in front
of you, so it's less.

Speaker 1 (26:43):
I've got a lot of bucle armchairs to clear. I've
set up a storefront because people were like, where can
I get this? Where can I get that? Except I
don't know how to I have worked out how to
use it.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
You need to trademark. I fell into a dressing up box,
had three martinis and all that. Because that's kind of
your vibe. I'd like if I wonder if you could
do that.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Yeah, I'm also.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Curious, Like I've got these yellow shoes that you guys
just absolutely hate. Now I kind of use my social
media to trol my audience, which is like I know
that people are just going to hate these, and I'm
interested to see if anyone would buy them. You know,
this is how people are making income by doing these
affiliate marketing. Like you've seen all these gift guides that
we've just been inundated with every single person who's doing

(27:25):
a gift gide.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
I did one last week. That's all getting any affiliate.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Well, they're you stupid. So for most people that's affiliate marketing,
and maybe you can get some And why not, Like
if you're telling people to go and buy this sofa
and someone does, and you're sending people that way, why
shouldn't you get a little bit of it? Okay, but
to neutrals and how you trademark them and one foot
in front of the other. Yes, I mean I don't
know what's influence and what single white female. So back

(27:50):
to the vibe, right, It's like, so if you do
genuinely believe you were one of the early adopters of
a look or a style of writing, or a style
of you know, I mean, I remember that in the
early days of Mom and mea there was a very
distinctive Internet voice that then everybody started writing in and
you know that happens all the time, and there are

(28:10):
there's a language of the Internet. There's a language of TikTok,
there's a language of that. Everybody then picks up and
goes with the very first person who ever said it.
I mean, that's very hard to pick, right. So the
idea of a vibe is interesting because she's right, like
if that was very much her distinctive thing, and she's
like neutral cell, groundbreaking. I I the first person who ever.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Put a beige couch on a grage run. They're like,
that is hard to gatekeep. But there's something we're going
on with the tattoo, That's all I've got to say.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah, And this journalist who went and visited them both
said it was like walking into the same home. She
walked into the same home, but then she said, I
think we're all living in the same home. Yeah, Which
is your point, Holly from Monday, which is that algorithms
have flattened our culture so much that we all just
are kind of constantly replicating each other because it's being projected, and.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
You often don't even realize why you do. It's like,
there's a reason why the first time you see baro
jeans you go uh yuck, the second time you go
uh yuck, the hundredth time you go oh, and then
the one hundred and fiftieth time you're like, I need some
barrel leg jeans. Like that's how trends work.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yes, but I suppose I'm thinking about the art of
it all right. Like copyright when it comes to writers
and artists and fashion designers is massive, and it's something
that is really complicated because it's you don't really trademark
an idea. What you can trademark is very specific.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
West always saying magazines, you can't copyright an idea because
women's magazines essentially would recycle the same stories among each
other and among themselves again and again and again. It's like, Oh,
it's September, it's the hair book.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
And you're constantly influenced by lots of things. Oh, this
is going well on this website, and this idea is
going well, and we'll grab that, and every news site
is writing around a TikTok, and in academia, your footnote,
you're constantly referencing where something has come from.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
So on Internet culture, I once did a thing where
I incidentally I didn't realize obviously it had gone into
my subconscious I did a thing of like a Celeste Barber,
you know how she has a celebrity photo and then
she does her version of it, and I thought, oh,
there was this photo of Jal and I thought I
wouldn't it be funny if I did my version of it?
And then a lot of people in the comments were
like tagged celest barbera and I was like, oh shit.

(30:28):
And what you've got to do is you've got to
say ht, which is hat tip yes at Celest Barber.
So that's the Internet equivalent of footnotes.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yes, but broadly that has been entirely lost. I always
see and I think that TikTok has a lot to
answer for in this is that replication, trend setting, even
templates is the aim of the game.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
It's not a floor, it's a feature.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
It's a feature. And I think there's something really depressing
about that that I see a comedy video. I saw
a comedy video the other day and I went, oh,
that's funny, and then I realized that that was an
exact replica of the comedy video that was made two
weeks ago by this creator who probably got half as
many views. But the irony of all of this, the
irony of the influencer coming out and saying, you copied

(31:08):
me replica, blah blah blah, is that you know that
buckle armchair that you are saying, I am the custodian
of Do you realize that that is a replica of
a much more expensive design, like everything on a lot
of these websites is. And this is the problem with
all design. Any designer will say this that someone put

(31:30):
all this effort into creating this incredible vision and then
somewhere really cheap, really unsustainably made that piece of furniture
so that everyone could buy it. And that's kind of
where art design creativity. That's why it's dying.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
All roads lead back to Meryl Streep in Devil Wears
Proda when she says that about that jumper, doesn't.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
She Okay, I see you think this has nothing to
do with you. You go to your closet and you
select I don't know that lumpy blue sweater, for instance,
because you're trying to tell the world that you take
yourself too seriously to care about what you put on
your back. What you don't know is that that sweater is.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Not just blue.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
It's not to her quoise, it's not lapis, it's actually ceruleum.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
W was past. It's the end of an era, but
the start of an a singing.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
The Eras tour ended on Monday. Guys, did you notice
no big surprises or announcements in the final show. I
thought maybe she'd announced that she was pregnant.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
Why would she do that? That is the most untailed
Swift thing that she could do.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
It was my fan fiction.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
If she's pregnant, I reckon, she'll never tell us. I
was like, I'm having this baby, Yes I am.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
I don't know what you're talking about, Bessie. Secondly, as
someone who I really like Taylor Swift, I'm not a Swifty.
Why is it such a big deal that the Eras
tour is over?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Okay, well, it's been going on for almost two years,
around eighteen months. Actually, she's played one hundred and forty
nine shows and the tour went to fifty four cities.
In twenty one countries and five out of the seven constance.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
Content type of a lot of letters.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yes, there are a lot of consonants. In her tour,
she missed no dates except for the three that she
was forced to cancel in Vienna because of a planned
terrorist attack. That's pretty extraordinary. She was not sick for
a single night of those shows. They went for three
and a half hours each.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Imagine the smoothie she's having. I would love to like
she must be. You'd focus so much on your health
and your energy levels.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yes, much. She says. She doesn't drink when she's performing,
and she's when she's not singing because she has like
a few days break between each sort of batch of shows.
She's on complete vocal rest because imagine she sings full
out for three and a half hours often like three
or four nights in a row, and then she'll have
few days off. Anyway, listen to this. Her biggest show
to date was at Melbourne Cricket Ground in Australia, where

(34:01):
she performed for ninety six thousand people, of which I
was one. That's the one Coco and I were at
and it is the best. It was incredible. That was
the most people she ever played for I did. You're
not meant to say that because I'll get you sorry.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
I think people are right.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yes, I did go twice. I also went in Sydney,
but the Melbourne one was my favorite. Around ten million
people have attended the Eras tour and she sang all
too well. You know the song about Jake Jillian, that
song she sang a ten minute version of that on
stage acoustically. She plays it in every show, which means
that she has played it for twenty five hours and

(34:38):
eighteen minutes over one full day.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Imagine how sick she would bear of that song.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
You know what I keep thinking about me, I've got
more facts.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Just sush because it's important. The global economic impact from
the Ears to her alone is thirteen to twenty eight
billion dollars, which roughly translates to the GDP of a
small country. And according to Forbes, she makes between ten
and thirteen million dollars per show. She just paid out
one hundred and ninety seven million dollars in tips to

(35:08):
her crew.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
She treats her crew well, she pays more.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Well, yeah, there's other facts, but here's what I.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Want to know. Well, what I keep thinking about rather
is the relationship timeline because if on this December the eleventh,
you did get dumped, I want you to think about
how different your life could be at eighteen months. Because
when Taylor Swift started that tour, she was allegedly still
going out with Joe Olwen right, well we all thought so, yeah,
she broke up with him. She had an affair with
somebody else, a flat Laddie Healy. I only just saw

(35:37):
the video of the podcast where Travis Kelcey, so the
tour had already started. Travis Kelcey talks to his brother
about how he tried to go and give Taylor a
bracelet with her number on it, and she wouldn't see
him because she doesn't talk since that. Fast forward to
the end of the tour. He's dancing on a freaking
stage in a top hat. They're the most iconic couple
in the world. And now Mia thinks that she's having

(35:58):
his baby. Yes she is. So I just want to
tell everybody a lot can change in eighteen months. Look
at what's happened to Travis Kelsey in eighteen months. A
rainbow has been shot up that man's art. Eighteen months birth.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Stay to Taylor for two days time she turns thirty
five on the thirteenth of December.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Holder sad Geez.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Speaking of tours out Louders, this is your reminder to
buy tickets while you still can to our live show.
Maya update at the top of our lady board.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
On the leaderboard, it's still Perth Perth ninety five percent Perth.
You nearly sold out.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Oh my god, I met some last week. You'll hear
more about this in my best Friends and what some
Perth out Loud and Perth out Louders and they might
be the premium out louder there. I said it.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Every person you met in person they were coming to
the show.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
They did.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
They all said I'm coming. I'm very very excited.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne are selling very very fast because
out loud As are egger beavers.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
It's the Mama Mia Out Loud Live twenty twenty five show.
It's called All or Nothing and it's presented by Nivia Cellular.
It's an all new show. So if you did come
and see us in May this year. Not like Taylor
Swift who's been doing the same show, Lazy Girl, She's
so lazy that Swifty. We are making a whole new
show for you, with all new costumes, all new gags,

(37:09):
all new arguments. You've got to come along. Head to
outloud live dot com dot au to get your pause
on some tickets before they sell out, and of course
that link is in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
After the break, the children's book that shaped many childhoods
is being canceled. Plus we have a couple more to
add to our burning books list.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Oh my god, what unlimited out loud access. We drop
episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma Maya subscribers.
Follow the link in the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week, and a huge
thank you to all our current subscribers.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
If you're wondering why you need therapy, it's time to
blame the book you read when you were a small child.
There's an article written for Mamma Mia this week by
Cassandra Green called did this book shape your childhood? Apparently
it's why we all need therapy, And the book is
The Rainbowfish.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
I love The Rainbow Feed by Marcus Fister.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
It was published in nineteen ninety two and when I
read this, I immediately envisage the book and knew the cover,
and I did have that book and read it to
my kids in case you can't remember what it's about,
because I couldn't. The rainbow Fish follows the story of
the most beautiful fish in the entire ocean. It is
a fish that has shimmering, colorful scales. Although admired for

(38:27):
its beauty, the rainbow fish feels lonely because it refuses
to share its shiny scales with others. I don't even
know how that would work. After seeking advice from a
wise octopus, the rainbow fish decides to share its scales,
which sounds painful, realizing the joy of generosity and friendship.
By the end of the story, the rainbow fish is
surrounded by happy friends, having found true happiness in giving

(38:50):
your whole?

Speaker 3 (38:51):
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Because you could remember the rainbowfish?

Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I thought that's lovely, And then I saw some
of these tiktoks.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Not lovely because well correct, It seemed to us like
the story of the rainbow Fish was an allegory for
banishing ego and considering others before ourselves sharing.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Everyone needs to learn to share.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
The fish learned to have a giving mindset instead of
a growth mindset, and to care about those around him. However,
psychologist Caroline Milsdorf on social media this week critiqued The
Rainbow Fish, suggesting that it promotes people pleasing over healthy generosity.
She argues that the story precious children to give up

(39:30):
their uniqueness and boundaries to gain acceptance from others. So, yes,
the book sends a problematic message. Children's value is tied
to how much they do for others.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
The world needs more people pleasing. I think people pleasing
is a great message. The thing is about hoarding is
holding your own scales. Now, holding your own scales is
your instinct as someone with a child at the moment.
Not sharing is the instinct. Hence why we write books
about how we must share.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
But Jesse must I share my skin with you? Literally?

Speaker 3 (39:59):
I mean I know you bitches.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Where my clothes are lost?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Is at this the whole point that you walk around.
For example, you want to teach your child how lucky
they are and how they have things, not because they're
better than anyone else, not because they earned anything, but
because they were lucky enough to be born with a
particular gifts or rainbow fish still check its privilege yes,
and walk around and go I'm going to give this

(40:23):
to others because I am part of a community and
this analysis is some neoliberal bullshit which is all about
you're an individual and you can't give away your stuff
and you must just look after yourself, and which is
very very damaging.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yes, I agree, And I was like, what are you
talking about them?

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Then?

Speaker 2 (40:42):
When I listen to what they were saying, these people,
because she's not the only one, this woman on TikTok,
they're saying that the other people are bullies, the ones
who are saying, give me one of your scales, give
me one of your scales, give me one of your scales.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
You start off here with rainbow fish, just an introduction.
This is the most beautiful fish in the sea. And
this little boring ass fish goes, rainbelfish, give me one
of your shiny scales.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
You have so many.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
Rainbowfish responds rightfully by saying, you want me to give
you one of my special skills. Who do you think
you are? Get away from me? This little punk runs away,
shocked shit talks rainbowfish to his friends, and from then
on nobody wants anything to do with rainbow fish.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
And I was like, oh, they are She's right.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
No life is just people asking you for shit.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
They say that, no, wonder we don't have boundaries, because
what the fish should have done is said, I'm very
sorry that you would like to have some shimmery scales
of your own, but these are my shimmery scales.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
And I'll be trademarking my vibe exactly.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
I'd never thought of it like that. It blew my mind,
and then I realized, exactly what you've just said is
that the rainbow fish is like a socialist parable right.
It's like, oh, we share the riches between everybody, and
it does not vibe with our individualistic times. But the
thing is, I genuinely read that book to my kids
every night, and I never thought of this, and now

(41:59):
it's all I can see boundaries. The fish needs boundaries.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
I don't think the fish needs boundaries. I think that
the idea that you are part of a community is
a very one and I think that we are overthinking it.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
What about the bit where she says this is why
all millennials people pleasers who suffer from burnout.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
I don't think we are a bunch of people pleases.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Well, speaking of burnout, it's made me question everything, including
where is the green sheep by our beloved men fox,
which what's that Mourner is particularly interested in. Everybody's looking
for the green sheep, Jesse. And they can find all
the other sheeps. They can find bath sheep, they can
find bed sheep, they can find red sheep, they can
find all the different sheeps, but they can't find the

(42:43):
green sheep. And do you know why why the green
sheep is asleep under a bush? And I think that's
an all agree about burnout, social anxiety and quiet quitting.
That's so true. I think that the green sheep is
quite queer. I think it's quite quitting the book.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
I do you think there needs to be people should
just stop looking for the green sheep because the green
sheep is worthless lazy.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Also, the green sheep needs some time to reach out
to you social batteries, away from all the other bloody
sheep doing things like going down slides and jumping off
piers they're so busy, or the others of trains.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
I think you're projecting. I struggle with the very hungry
caterpillar because I think that it promotes disordered eating because.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
It's it's binging.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
It is binging, and it's a bit shamy.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
But they're very hungry. Caterpillar eats his or hers way
through lots of healthy food.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
It's fuel to become like you need fuel.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yeah, But then it's like, oh, and then the caterpillar
had a tummy ache, and it's like, oh, you're trying
and tell my kid not to eat as much as
they feel like or are you trying to tell my
kid that they must binge in order to grow.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
It because they need to recognize the signals when they
are full, and they shouldn't emotionally eat. I also, I
think the hungry caterpillar is emotionally eating. I think that
it was too feelings.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
I struggle with you know how you were talking about
the rainbow fish and how the octopus says something to it.
It's really hard when a child is trying to understand
the world around them when every animal in every book
talks and wears clothes, up your expectation and has a
half glasses, and you've got to go. You know what.
Giraffes don't come up.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Much in puses. You might not ever see.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
You might talk to one in your whole life. You're
probably not going to talk.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
To them, probably not going to bear a hat. No, exactly.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
But this is why we give all the animals in
our lives voices. This is why your dog talked like this.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yes, I see a lot of sheep at the playground.
There's not actually a lot of sheep. Where are the sheep?
Why aren't they going down the slide?

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Dear zoo?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Because dear Zoo is all about I wrote to the
zoo to send me a pet. They sent me an
elephant in a box. I'm like, we're not sending yeah,
or a snake or a monkey in a box. You know,
send them back. That's an episode and we know what
happens when you send them back. They've got a landfill
border force. What do they called Australian.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Control the landfill?

Speaker 3 (45:00):
We really this is escalated quickly.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
One of the things about children's books is they've always
had allegories of messages, right, but not everything in childhood
to be educational, we just need some books that are
just fun.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Foster Blake's book about farts.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yes, the reason kids like the rainbow fish actually is
very superficial. It's because it's sparkly. That's why they like it.
You get to touch the spark exactly. You get to
touch the sparkly scales. It's beautifully produced. You can get
a rainbow fish hanger, you can get a rainbow fish calendar.
Good Not anymore, you can't because now it's been canceled
for being the root of all evil. That is all

(45:36):
we've got time for today, my friends. That is all
we have time.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
We've run out of time on the internet. There's no
more space left for our consonants.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Just th that the Internet is saying enough.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Enough, because the Internet has boundaries.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
They didn't read that book.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
No one tries to replicate our vibe, because I would
love someone to try and replicate ours.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
I should say, speaking of our vibe that as we
are the top of the leaderboard for women's podcasts in Australia,
and we're number four for all of the podcasts, so
well done to you for putting us there.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Really were as leaderboard. Obsession is getting out of control
before we go. Almost every workplace has an inappropriate man
in it. Actually not ours, not ours, momma. There are
a few men here. They're not inappropriate.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
I was going to say, except when my dog was
biting people, But that wasn't a man, It was actually
a girl dog. So ignore me and continued even work.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Then fold up your leaderboards and put him under the tree.
It's a big We have a massive thank you to
all of you out louders for listening to today's show
and to our fabulous team for putting it together.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
We're going to be on the top of the Lead
Lady leaderboard if there wasn't for our listeners.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Thank you out Loudness. It's not about me as leaderboard.
We appreciate you anyway. We need to write a children's
book about that. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
On our most recent Subs episode, em Vernon and I
talk about Greg Wallace, who is a very problematic English
TV presenter who has turned out to be very much
that inappropriate guy in a workplace, and what the hell

(47:08):
you do about and why women off a certain age
in inverted commas may be the ones to call them out.
Maybe the reason that the women who are complaining about
this are what we would call middle class and middle
age because they're the ones who can complain about it.
Because if you're the junior grip on the show or
one of the makeup women or whatever, and you're young
and you're at the beginning of your career. You're not

(47:29):
going to go straight in with a complaint about the
guy who's been hosting the show for twenty years. No,
I don't even know. We're allowed to complain about those things.
You are absolutely allowed to complain about these things. But,
as this story suggests, as a link in the show
notes where you.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Can listen, Bye shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.
If you love the show and want to support us
as well, subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best
way to do so. There is a link in the
episode description

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