November 10, 2025 • 50 mins
After revealing she failed the bar exam, Kim Kardashian's new legal drama All's Fair has also been panned by critics as the worst TV show to ever exist. So, when you’re one of the most successful women in the world, what does it feel like to fail? And do we all need to embrace the humour in our own ‘flop’ eras?
And, the New York Times asked a very simple question: Did women ruin the workplace? The Internet had a lot of thoughts, and we’re here to dissect them.
Plus, can you be friends with someone who has a very different political view to you? For many young people, the answer is increasingly no. And, with celebrities like Jennifer Lawrence choosing to keep their politics to themselves, we unpack whether revealing your political leaning is becoming a no-go zone.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to Mama out Loud. What women are actually talking
about on Monday, the tenth of November. I am Jesse Stevens,
I am Amelia Lester, I'm Claire Murphy. And I don't
know if you know this, guys, but there's this actress
who's been really doing a great job on not a
great job at all acasm called Kim Kardashian. You might
be across her.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
She's not been doing so well this week. She'd have
it a bit of a rough time. I think she
might have just hit failure era. And so I would
like to just have a moment with you all to
discuss how a multi up presuming she's a billionaire now
multimillion billionaire, whatever she is, woman who has a thousand
businesses is now failing?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Can you be friends with people who believe very different
things from you?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Politically?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I want to talk about Jennifer Lawrence's answer to that question.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And did women ruin the workplace? Allegedly they did? I
knew that we've done, say exactly exactly, in which case
my question is can we all go home now?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah? I was feeling guilty at three am the other morning.
That must have been in first of though. Friends. In
case you missed it, the VIC government announced their big
Women's pain report from their inquiry yesterday. I don't know
if you heard. They announced this pilot initiative to give
women getting their IUDs inserted the green whistle. And first
of all, we need to establish who here has had
(01:37):
a green whistle experience. Jesse Emelia, I don't know what
that is.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh my goodness, I'm obsessed with green whistles because I desperately.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Do you have one? When you broke you? Let no.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was at the top of a mountain and there
was a little like lock box where they keep the
green whistle, and when they looked in there, it hadn't
been replaced from last time. And in fact, in the
whole town there was no green whistle. It just didn't exist.
And so I thought about that green whistle for about
eight straight hours.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, well, let me tell you it was the only
one in the room who's had a green whil experience.
That it is one of those things. I don't know
what drug it is, actually, but it's something that's given
to you in the moment. We have had like an
extreme pain incident broke your leg. For me, it was
I snapped my cruci at tendon. It's so that say,
paramedics can help you deal with the pain whilst they
transfer you to hospital. So it's short acting, it's very effective,
(02:27):
so it kicks in really quickly, and I'm not sure
if it's actually helping with the pain or just your
brain is now having super super fun and is distracted
and doesn't care about the pain anymore. Because I went
from like howling and crying to being like, oh, that's
a pretty cartoon on the ceiling of the cubicle that
they landed me in at the hospital. So it's really
short acting and very effective.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So it's like a preloaded it's got drugs in a whistle.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And you just kind of like breathe it in. And
so it's always like sideline of kids sports, that kind
of stuff. And I thought when I read this headline,
I was like, this is genius, because I've interviewed women
in the past who have said that they got NIUD
inserted and it was turn out of ten pain. They
fainted on the train on the way home. Others say
it was absolutely fine. But the fact that that hasn't
(03:14):
been part of the process or something that you're off it.
I've even thought it with I remember the most painful
part of my labor was the stretcher sweep thing that
they did, and I was like, can I have a
green whistle for that? Maybe not, I don't know. It
might not be good for the baby. But the fact
that pain relief isn't at the forefront of the practitioner's
(03:34):
mind when you are going inside someone to a very
tender area. I think this is very exciting progress.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Have either of you watched a single episode of All's
Fair yet?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
No, I have not, But I must say I'm finding
the reviews very tantalizing. And the more I read, the
more zero stars I see, the more I'm leaning.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh, guys, you're in for a treat. It is obviously
Kim Kardashian's lady feature into acting. She's done a few
gigs before, but this is her latest. It is not
getting the reviews that we'd perhaps thought when this idea
was being formed. But maybe it's a little more strategic
than we thought. But Kim's flop era, we believe may
(04:19):
have just arrived because she's not just failing where it
comes to this particular venture. She's also failed in her
legal career this week as well, so we think maybe
she's starting to learn a few lessons on this new
pathway to failure. I am a great connoisseur of terrible things.
So if someone tells me that something has a bad review,
(04:39):
I will often like it. And I think it's because
I have very low brow taste buds, Like I just
go into these things purely for entertainment value. And so
this if you are not across All's fair. This is
the new Ryan Murphy drama. It's about a women only
divorce lawyers firm, which stars Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, Nissi Nash.
They're like your core three divorce lawyers who've come from
(05:01):
like this past of you know, middle aged white man
law firms where they're overlooked and undervalued, and so they
come out as these powerful women and they drop these
one liners which are awful, and they deal with cheating
husbands and controlling men, and like they get the best
for these women their clients that have you know, been
(05:23):
very poorly treated. And I can tell you now I'm
three episodes in the acting is like beyond terrible. I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Why Naomi Watts and Sarah Paulson, who's also in it
and has kind of write like Ryan Murphy's News, and
Glenn Close.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
How can the oh my god, Glenn Close?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
How can these people be acting badly? They're very good actors.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
It has got to be in the writing. And I
was trying to find it. Who was in the writer's
room for this, And as far as I can tell,
there's not a single woman on the writing style so
interesting take. I mean, if there is and I've missed it,
I apologized, But as far as I can tell, there
was not many women writing this, And so the way
in which these women have come together, like the friendship
that's supposed to be like the all encompassing part of
(06:05):
the backstory of them, feels very forced and uncomfortable. They're
delivering these one liners like they should have impact, but
they just seem kind of funny. But the big part
of it, I think is just it is bougie and classless,
and there is designer threads and loads of bling and
it just taps into that part of my brain that
just loves and it's like going on a roller coaster
(06:27):
at you know movie world, like you know it's going
to be awful, bit at the same time, like you're
adrenaline is pumping and you really love it. Like that's
all I can say is keeping me coming back because
the flash in the Glitz is everything.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What I can't work out is that Kim Kardashian is
known for her blankness right like, even she is expressionless.
Her face doesn't really move, she doesn't have any pause,
she doesn't emote at all. So the pivot into acting
is a very interesting one for me. But I wanted
to ask you, Claire. I read this incredible review in
(06:59):
The Atlantic, and I want to read you a line
and then I want you to tell me if this
was your experience of watching it, because I think that
this also might signify a broad a cultural shift towards
a very dire place. The author, who is Sophie Gilbert, wrote,
I can't call it a television show because it isn't one. Rather,
it's Instagram reels. At episode length, forty five minute collections
(07:21):
of bedazzled moving images targeted at the idly scrolling second
screen viewer seems pass quickly, as if to emulate the
true feed experience. If you're not already on your phone,
you may as well be.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, that seems pretty accurate, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I did see one still from it which was Kim
wearing a sort of tweed skirt with a believe it's
called a whale tail, a visible G string poking.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Out the back.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I mean, look, I'm not a lawyer, but is that
to actually wear that to court?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
This show, well, let me just prefers. I'm three episodes
in and they have yet to go to court. This
is all boardroom experiences at this point. So this is
like husband and wife sitting down across the table, very combative,
like they often come in with a bunch of men
and they sit down and they say things like oh,
all the ladies together, like that kind of vibe, and
then the ladies are like and we are going to
(08:13):
destroy you, and you're like, yes, girl, go get them.
And then they deliver these like terrible lines and you're
like cool, you still want like are really happy for
your client, but like these storylines are wrapped up in milliseconds.
You barely get to know the clients. Like Jessica Simpson
is a client and her role is like exceptional, like exceptional.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
What do you mean by exceptional like she's a great actor.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
No, no, no, nothing to do with her acting experience.
It is the fact that they brought her in to
play the character that they have and it kind of
plays very much into her real life plastic surgery experiences.
It's just great. And also Glenn Close, like, you cannot
fault this woman. She's incredible. And she delivers a line
to Sarah Paulson's character where she says, like the world
would be so much happier if your mother just swallowed
(08:57):
And that coming out of Len Close's mouth is like, whoa,
it's camp and it's terrible, Like it's just awful, awful, terrible.
But this is from Kim Kardashian American Horror Story because
she got Rave reviews for that, all right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Because I have two theories as to why this has happened,
because I don't believe in twenty twenty five we are accidentally,
especially with Ryan Murphy who created Glee, like he is
a very incredible creator who knows what he's doing, I
don't believe that this happened by accident. Right, So the
first theory is one I've seen going around on substack,
(09:32):
which is Basically, the zero percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes
is a plant, and it's there on purpose because there
is nothing that makes you want to watch a show
more than the thought is it really that bad? Like
I want to go and prove for myself that this
is the worst show ever, And that's been part of
the attraction, and early indications suggests that people are flocking.
(09:57):
The second thing is that there are seventeen executive producers
on this show. They're used to it's wild, right, including
pretty much all of the actors. So you've got what's
is one? I think Kardashian is one, Paulhan is one,
And what that means is like decades ago, you'd have
three or four, So the room of people making decisions
(10:19):
is quite small.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It's like this flex that every actor sort of wants
to be an EP as well. And I think we're
starting to create these vanilla Frankenstein's like where we've got
too much input that it then just dilutes an idea
and becomes absolute garbage the next show you're watching. Have
a look at how many people had creative input, and
(10:44):
there is a threshold at which there is just too much,
Like did Kim Kardashian need a seat at the table
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I think you're onto something there because and just like
that had the same issue. It did too the actors
were executive producers and Rotten Tomatos. For some time now,
people have been talking about the fact that because it's
so important, it is getting gained. Yeah, and I don't
know if you remember this, but about a year ago
it came out that Paddington iiO had the highest Rotten
(11:12):
Tomatoes rating of any movie ever, higher than Citizen Kane,
which is often regarded as the cinematic masterpiece of the
twentieth century. And you just got to wonder about any
rating system. I mean, look, I think Paddington Too is
delightful and Hugh Grant is as usual stealing the show.
But I just wonder if Paddington two really is the
best movie of all time.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So, as I mentioned, well, this is Kim's big fail
of the moment, but just quietly she failed again this
week because she didn't pass the bar. And anyone who's
been watching the Kardashians nose that, like this has been
a big theme throughout all of the seasons, and she's
been studying very hard, and she's been working advocating for
people in prison, and she failed the bar. So this
(11:56):
feels like Kim Kardashian is failing. In her personal life.
She's failing. I mean, she can't control the men that
come into her sphere, so I guess that's out of
her control. But career wise, like her actual career as
a lawyer is failing. Her alternate career as an actress,
she is failing. Are we now witnessing Kim Kardashian's flop era?
And what can she learn from all of this? We think?
(12:17):
I mean, she's fine. I love this for her.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I think this is why she is still just as
relevant today as she was ten years ago, fifteen years ago.
It's because she is willing to keep reinventing herself and
taking risks, and she's failed lots of times. Like I'm
thinking back to her skincare line that she tried to
launch a couple of times that never took off, and
it should have. Skims took off because she got really
(12:42):
smart people around her and she knew exactly what moment
she was in. But I love her failing the California Bar.
Isn't this the second or third time that she's failed?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
At this point, I don't know which bar she's failed,
becausemember she failed the baby bar last time, and whether
this is the full fledged one or a retake of
the baby bar, I'm not sure, but yeah, she has.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Failed before, so I believe that she has now passed
the baby bar, but that it was the last time
she could possibly do it the time that she passed,
and then she studied really hard with this. She did
say she relied heavily on chat GPT and she has
some firm words for chat GPT. She says that sometimes
it's more like a go girl, believe in yourself, and
she's like, I just need the answer, which yes, I agree,
(13:21):
But I think she has entered her flop era. Kim
Kardashian is nothing if not self aware, and that is
her superpower. So even her caption on Instagram about the
All Fairs All's Fair thing, which was like, have you
guys watched the critically acclaimed All's Fair yet? Like she
thought that was funny that it was bad and she
(13:43):
posted about failing. She didn't have to post that she
failed that exam. But I mean, we all enter flop eras,
we've got to own them. There is humor in them,
and all power to Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I think this is amazing because I've had these conversations
with my daughter very recently, because when I pick her
up from school, I'd ask her about, you know, tell
me one thing that happened today, what did you succeed
at today? And We've had these kind of conversations, and
then one day I just asked her, did you fail
at anything today? And she was like, oh, I don't know.
I don't want to think about that. And then I
was like, but we learn from that, Like if you
(14:16):
fail at something, you learn some really big lessons from failing.
And she was like, oh, And now we have conversations
about successes and failures, so that as she grows up,
she's going to be like, Okay, what did I learn
from that fail rather than oh my god, I failed.
I'm the worst human in the world, and now I
can never do that again because I've failed at it
and I must be terrible. I love talking about failure,
(14:36):
and I'm like you, Amelia. I think this is a
really great moment for her because she's embracing it, she
learns from it, she keeps moving forward, she keeps trying,
she does things that gets her out of her comfort zone.
She does something new and different and incredible, and then sure,
sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it fails. But she's not
just hanging off of the Kardashian success for the rest
of her life. It's really quite interesting this time of
(14:58):
her life.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I've got another little tidbit of gossip related to the Kardashians,
and it's about Chris Jenner, who's not failing at anything
right now.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
She is in whatever the opposite of a floppy era is.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
She's got her brand new face that has been critically acclaimed,
unlike Kim Show. And she just celebrated her seventieth birthday
on Friday night in Los Angeles in Beverly Hills at
Jeff Bezos's mansion, and the guest list was very impressive.
It was everyone from Mark Zuckerberg to Oprah and Gail
to Rita Wilson. Tom Hanks's wife is also an actress
(15:34):
in her own right, to Miranda Kerr and the Snapchat
guy she's married.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
To, Evan Adele, was there.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Interestingly, she covered her face with her handbag on the
way in, which reminded me of remember when Leonardo DiCaprio
went to the Bezel's wedding and just pulled his hat
down on.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I would absolutely go to christ Janna's seventieth and I
would absolutely hide my face on my way in and
out because I think the out louders would be, you know,
probably call me out fairly, but I'd be like, guys,
I'm there for the gossip.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
But what I found really interesting about this is that
Chris Jenna was not always Hollywood royalty. In fact, she
was on the outs in Hollywood all through the twenty tens.
The Kardashian family was seen as very naff, sort of embarrassing.
They certainly didn't have any credibility in the sort of
moneyed halls of Beverly Hills. And now Chris Jenna seems
(16:22):
to be the queen of Hollywood, and she's bringing together
not just actors like the Riata Wilson's of the world,
but also like media moguls like Oprah and then tech
moguls like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos. And my genuine
question is, how did she pull this off? And why
does everyone feel that they need to be there at
Chris Jenna's birthday party?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I reckon behind the scenes. She must be an incredible networker, right,
Like she must be one of those people that everyone
actually quite likes. This happens in like Australian media circles,
where it's not who you'd expect who were like the
most connected and almost the most popular. Did I read
though that Chris Jenna had Harry and Meghan Harry the.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Duke and Duchess of Sussex were there. But I want
to just push you on that, Jesse, because we knew
there were friends, by the way, because Megan had sent
her Rose when she launched her Rose, so that's when
that connection first came about. But I want to distinguish
between someone who's a good networker and someone who's just
a lot of fun to be around, because that's what
I'm trying to figure out with her. Do people think
(17:23):
it's strategic to show up at her party or is
she just the best fun in Hollywood? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think she might be really fun. I think she
might be really fun too. But I also feel like
the Kardashian power has shifted over the years. Remember when
their power was kind of intangible, like they were famous
for being famous. There was all of that, and I
think as we've kind of progressed, and these women have
become incredibly successful business women in their own right, and
(17:50):
you know, Chris still at the head of that family
as their agent and taking care of business, and her
influence has grown and grown and grown, and I think
just the nature of the world that we now live
in that's less about the old money and about the
old ways and more about the you and the flashy
and the next and the latest. I think her power
is actually shifted into a place where I think people
probably are also networking with her in a way that
(18:12):
they wouldn't have done ten years ago. I have a
little piece of gossip about Jeff Bezos. He has a house.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
In Washington, DC, where I used to live, and I
have a friend who once went to a party at
his Washington DC mansion.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And here is the little tidbit.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
He owns two mansions and they're on other sides of
the street from each other there, and one of the
mansions is just for parties, and it's full of like
really historic, pricey memorabilia and beautiful frange pictures and it's
specifically designed to entertain people and impress people. And then
on the other side of the Street is his actual
house that he lives in, And what's the bet that
that's just got some comfy sofas and some oh some
(18:50):
big big screen TVs. And I just love the idea
of a dedicated party house for Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
After the break, the New York Times asked a very
simple question, nothing wrong with asking a question. They just
wanted to know if women ruined the workplace? And the
internet got really mad, and we are here to dissect it.
Did women ruin the workplace? The New York Times? They did,
(19:20):
and they took the words right out of our mouths.
They are reading our minds. Last week, the New York
Times published that headline, and as tends to happen on
the internet, there was a lot of blowback to the headline.
I think most people didn't actually read what was beyond it.
That's not to say the headline isn't offensive or problematic,
(19:40):
but the article itself was somewhat more complicated, and we'll
get to that.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
They also changed the headline.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh, they changed the headline like six times.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
So it did start off as did women ruin the Workplace?
And people were upset, they said, we've heard you. They
changed it to did liberal feminism ruin the workplace?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, they kept trying to kind of hedge hedge hedge,
and you could just hear the panic in the newsroom,
which a it's quite enjoying. Host Ross Douthat interviewed two
conservative female writers. One is named Helen Andrews, the other
is Leah Libresco Sergeant, and they make two very different points,
but he sits down with them and basically they all
(20:23):
explore the idea that workplaces have become more woke, and
wokism is of course a result of the feminization of
the workplace. So apparently women they care more about this
equality bullshit. They are more driven by empathy, social justice, priorities,
consensus over decision making.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
God, we're awful, I know.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And this shift has meant that we have lost important
things like hierarchy, assertiveness, and risk taking, which are all
essential to a thriving workplace. Helen Andrews says that feminine
vices such as gossip and an inability to deal with
conflict directly have led to very corrosive things like the
meter movement.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Don't get her started on.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
The TV show All's Fair, while in fact, can we
pin that on men? Because men wrote that they delivered
the scripts the poor women, which I feel like is
actually kind of a metaphor for what's going on here.
But before we go to did women ruin the workplace?
I want to explore the idea of did women in
fairness change the workplace? What do you reckon?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I mean, of course they did, moving from this notion
that a man's only role in this world is to
go to work and make money and come home. This
is an opportunity that I feel men have maybe let
them pass by, but inviting women into the workplace freed
them up to have more life than breadwinner. And when
women came in it of course introduced things like maternity
(21:53):
leave initiatives. It also created things like workplace discrimination legislation
came on board, so things definitely changed when women came
into the workforce. But like I said, men lost an
opportunity to pull back from the workforce, to not have
that be their entire identity. And I think this is
where we're failing men in particular, as no one taught
(22:15):
them what to do once they weren't the only ones
doing that important role, and they've kind of been left
wondering what their purpose is in life now because they
did not take the on id to say this. Conservative
men in particular didn't take the opportunity to explore becoming
better and more involved fathers, or finding ways to better
their society and community, or you know, looking beyond their
(22:37):
worth as a dollar sign. Like it's a really interesting
moment where we could have collectively made everyone's lives different
and more interesting, and instead, conservative men in particular chose
to stand still.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
All right, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here because
I would be lying if I didn't confess that I
have sat with lots of people who are very high
up in businesses, who work across lots and lots of
different industries, young people, older people, lots of different people
who have said some version of this right when they're
(23:11):
in private. So they will say something like women are
harder to manage workplaces with more women are bit here
they will say women are conflict avoidant, And so what
you get is a lot of they're not honest with
each other. We are finding that a lot of this
social justice stuff is impacting our bottom line. I'm not
saying I agree with any of this, but like, if
(23:33):
this is a conversation that is happening, and people are
going the workplace is changing. And that's the thing is
that once you get women in, even when the subject
of minorities, it's like yeah, and those people are going
to change a workplace. That's also why we want to
diversify and have a more inclusive workplace. But is that
worth discussing. I mean, if that is a true phenomenon, yeah, Look.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I'm going to piggyback on that and say I was
really interested to listen to this conversation because Helen Andrews
starts from an accurate place. The place she starts from
is that we are losing trust in all these affe
authority figures and institutions that we used to believe and trust.
So I'd think of government, I'd think of yes, media,
I think of churches, I'd think of all sorts of
(24:17):
institutions that are failing us now because we don't trust
them like we used to. And so her question is why,
and her answer happens to be women. And you know,
I think that's what we're spending time unpacking here. But
it's a reasonable question to ask why did institutions start
to fail us? And her basic point is that women
care more about relationships than men, and men care more
(24:40):
about rules than women do. That's the sort of premise
of what she's saying here. And I think it's very
silly to say that men care more about rules than
women while we're watching the world burn, because a bunch
of men who are probably at Chris Jenner's birthday party
don't care about rules at all.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Her other point is that men are warriors and they
have been like evolutionarily primed to go to right, so
they are all about conflict, aggression and resolution. And I'm like,
I don't know if you've read a story about war,
but war is not often a story of resolution, Like
it takes a lot of time and a lot of death.
(25:20):
And if that is the blueprint of our corporate workforce,
then I have a few criticians.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
World War One was followed by World War yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I don't think that they all then hold hands and go.
Now we all agree where she says women obviously their
only job is to have and look after children, and
therefore they are more about social dynamics talking.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Jesse are not being fair about this book that she loves.
What she says is.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Then are warriors, meaning they go out and fight battles.
Women are warriors, meaning they worry about things exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And what we need is the workforce is best run
by warriors, which is the war ones. And if you
can see it.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Sounds better in an American access, I will say.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I am just I'm really frustrated obviously at these conversations
because it's not conversation, it's provocation. And it makes feminism
this idea that women want to be seen as same
and it's not that at all. We obviously are different
to men, like that's not the question, and that was
never what feminism was about. Feminism is about equality. It's
(26:32):
about political equality, it's about social equality, it's about economic equality.
It's not about being the same as men. Women bring
different things to the table. It doesn't mean they're worse things.
We are flawed just as men are. We're going to
make mistakes and do things just as men do. But
at the end of the day, if we can together
work together to make it an equal experience, regardless of
(26:53):
what skills we bring to the table, that is what
feminism aimed to do. And the problem with the word
feminism is it has the word feminine in it, and
men conservative men in particular, see that as lesser. We
don't want to be that that is a threat to
my masculinity instead of seeing it as an accompaniment or
(27:13):
a way to improve yourself is by aligning with that
femininity and exploring that and seeing how that can work
better together. Because the patriarchy, yes, started with men who
will worry yours and who decided that this combatitive nature
of government and the way that people should be put
in their place. That's why that was created at a
(27:34):
time where that difference between men and women was because
men were physically stronger, and so that was how that
had to play out in that time. In our existence
right now, we understand we do jobs that don't require physicality,
and for that you don't need to be a man
or a woman or any gender in particular. You can
actually be the same on the same playing field. But
(27:57):
you have to understand that that system has to be
dismantled first. And men are so unwilling to let that
go because when you're at the top of the food chain,
why would you want to share that with anyone?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I think some men are and interestingly here some
women are right, And there's a question at the end
of the interview where Helen is asked to name a
feminine attribute that she thinks is good and she can't
do it. She can's going back and forth and being
like she really struggles to go. Is there anything about
the feminine or female inclusion in the workplace that might
(28:30):
be read as positive? But I see your point clear
that it's like it's about the workplace is going to change.
And if you look at your Jeff Bezos as the
example of your masculine vices, So let's pillage the environment,
let's exploit people. Let's money at all costs a certain.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Pe in water bottles instead of having toilet breaks if
they work at an Amazon.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Fashion exactly, and you know what, that is profitable.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And if that's the world that Helen Andrews is advocating for,
then you are right. But I think that a lot
of us men and women are going that's not the
kind of workplace that's actually functional or sustainable or works
long term.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It's really hard for women to pea and water bottles
really difficult unless you have a shi wi that will
make things.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And number two, i'd just say, if you've got a
party house in a regular house, maybe you should interrogate
how you're running a business that made that possible exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Maybe you just need one house there. The female said it,
I said it, How dad are you?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
If you were born before nineteen ninety seven, I've got
a few things I want to update you on, and
if you were born after nineteen ninety seven, I'd suggest
you should listen along.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You might learn something. How about that?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Respect your olders, sorry, respect your elders. The first thing
I wanted to tell us people born before nineteen ninety
seven is that I went to an oasis this weekend.
Oh okay, I went to their concert and it was
so great well that I had the best time. Holly
was there too. We were singing our heart out to
Don't Look Back in Anger. The second thing I want
(30:01):
to tell you about is that we are apparently doing
something else wrong.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Now, can we just add it to the list of things? Okay,
what are we doing wrong today? Amelia? Millennials go around?
Because I just found out that we were getting made
butter for something called the millennial Smile.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, so the millennial smile. It's essentially what Tyra Banks
told us to do when she said to smiles, remember that.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
It's smiling with your eyes, smiling with your eyes.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Your lips are closed, you're smiling with your eyes, You're
looking very benevolent about the world. And look, I would
rather be accused of having the millennial smile than the
gen z stare. I'm just going to put that out there.
But also I did feel deeply shamed and guilty when
I watched this video because I absolutely do the millennial smile,
particularly in selfies.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Okay, because what was distinctive about this smile too, is
that you don't open your lips, right, I like yours.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
First raised up. But it's not dark faced. No, it's
just like a very gentle like I don't even know
how to smirk.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's how I smiled when I had braces, which was
like I'm trying to hide my dental work. Now, I
think because I had braces on my teeth, I was scappy,
and I had that two years. I feel like now
I'm still just stoked. I don't have races anymore, so
I smile with all the teeth. But we had to
have a smile in our bank for when we took
(31:25):
our forty eight MySpace photos like an album of our
night out where we just looked exactly the same at
the nightclub with our digital camera, where we would do
that face with our like good angle.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's interesting because I've got a slightly different theory ast
how originated, which is maybe because I'm an elder millennial
and you are a baby millennial. Yes, that the term
us elder millennials still remember taking the little camera roll
to the chemist to get the photos printed. Yes, And
there was always this moment that you went to pick
(31:58):
up the photos once they were printed, and your hands
will practically be shaking as you open this envelope to
see if amongst the twenty four photos that you had careful,
there may be one that is good enough for you
to perhaps frame. Yeah, and you put up on your
walls venue. And so we didn't have endless, endless opportunities
to take photos. We only had the photos that we
(32:21):
had on our twenty four photo role, Okay, And so
we had to develop a fool proof way of smiling.
And I see you not in Claire, You know what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Okay, So we couldn't risk it with teeth.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Here's what you're saying, we couldn't. We can teek it
with teeth. Teeth changes everything. And that's the thing. Is
like when you are looking at your face in a camera,
like if you don't smile with your teeth, it like
elongates your cheeks a little bit, and like you don't
look like a crazy person. And sometimes when you smile
with all your teeth, it changes the whole shape of
(32:51):
your face and like it broadens out your cheeks and
it like changes squints up your eyes a little bit.
Sometimes you want your eyes to be the focus, not
the mouth. So it's been practiced in a way that
you know that if I deliver this photo in a
certain way, it'll probably turn out kind of okay. The
smile is unpredictable and it depends on who you're standing
(33:11):
next to, what angle you're looking at, Like, there's a
lot of unknowns with a smile. Oh, I've been practicing forever.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I lose my eyes, Like there are lots of issues. Also,
my chin scrunches. There is a high probability of error.
I just wish that I had maybe had this advice
before my wedding.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Well, can I just say I went to my niece's
twenty first birthday very recently, and she had like this
glorious setup with like draped fabric and candles and like
things that people were posing in front of to have
their photos taken. And someone handed me a camera and
said can you take some photos for us? And I
was like, of course, I'm cool. I can hang with
twenty one year olds and take a decent photo. I've
(33:49):
been doing this for a long time.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
I think that you using the phrase I can hang
with twenty one year olds was your first.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I mean internally, yes, but I would never say that
out loud in front of the young people for fear
of being judged. But I walked up and I held
up the camera and before I'd even like gone to press,
they were like no, no, no, no, no, no, no no,
this is all wrong. Step back. I now have to
take the photos from like under boob height. Oh I
thought of the camera. No no, no, we do not
(34:17):
take from above. You take from below. And then you
take forty eight photos speech shots, whatever you want to
do of them, kind of subtly shifting without smiling, and
then some with smiles and then some with them on
the opposite sides. But it's all done from like this
under boob height, because they want the whole fit in
the photo. There's no more above shots anymore. That is gone,
(34:38):
that is out. There's a whole new law coming up
through the ranks of how to take a photo, when
is appropriate to take a photo, and what faces you
pull in that photo. Like these are lessons that I
am still learning, Claire.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
There might be law, there might be new lessons, but
all I have to say to my gen z's is yes.
This weekend I took a millennial smile photo from above
as a selfie while singing Wonder War, and I regret nothing.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
After the break.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Do you have any friends who you don't agree with politically,
maybe even you don't agree with your partner politically. Well,
Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney have some differing theories on
how you should.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Deal with that.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummyer
out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link in
the show notes to get your daily dose of out
Loud and a big thank you to all.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So I've started getting the newspaper delivered because I'm regressing
into my old man era, and my.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Best friend still buys the newspaper, but she buys it
almost specifically for the TV guide. She's such a nana.
I don't love it.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I was reading it on the weekend and I was
millennial smiling as I turned the pages, modeling healthy reading
habits for my children.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Do you sniff your newspaper? No?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I love, Oh God, the smell of a newspaper. I
do miss it. Well, I must do that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I stopped and I read this survey result that really
surprised me, shocked me, appalled me. It was a survey
conducted by McKinnon, an Australian firm, and basically the headline
is it says that young people are much more likely
to cut ties in a friendship if someone disagrees with
(36:28):
them politically. Basically, different political views have become a deal
breaker for young people. And the stats are quite striking.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And this was Australian.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
This is Australia.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
One in five eighteen to twenty four year old Australians
say that different political views are a deal breaker. But
you compare that to people who over sixty five, and
that's only one in twenty.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Say that different political views are a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And it's interesting because we've been seeing a lot of
celebrities recently, mostly in the US, being sort of called
to question about their political.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Views, and they know.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
I think they know instinctively that this has become the
third rail, particularly for young people. Like celebrities used to
be comfortable showing political views with us, but now they
sense that the vibe has shifted. So, for instance, here's
Jennifer Lawrence talking about this exact issue recently to The
New York Times.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
I think I'm in a complicated recalibration because I'm also
an artist, and I with this temperature and the way
that things can turn out, I don't want to start
turning people off to films and too art that could
change consciousness or change the world because they don't like
(37:41):
my political opinions.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Now, look, Jennifer Lawrence, yes, she says she's an artist,
she's a very good actor. But I think this is
relevant to everyone right because right now everyone's living in
this heightened political environment. The temperature is high for all
of us. We may not be artists, but we are
still having to figure out how to interact with other
people who might not agree with us. So Jennifer Lawrence,
very vocal during Trump one, basically has stepped back and
(38:05):
said I'm not going to talk about politics now during
second Shomp administration. So I am curious whether you feel
this vibe shift too, Jesse. Do you feel like politics
has become a real no go?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yes, And I feel as though there's a shift. I'm
certainly seeing it among celebrities that they're sort of going.
I know, it doesn't make a difference, and that's what
Jennifer Lawrence said, doesn't make a difference when I come
out and tell you how to It's not like it's
shifting the needle and suddenly everyone votes for Harris. That's
simply not what happened. And the second thing is my
(38:36):
work tells my story, so for a lot of creatives,
and I think that we put this pressure on a
lot of different types of artists, whether it's writers or
journalists or actors or musicians. It's like I have a
certain set of politics. It might not reveal how I vote,
but what my values are and what I believe that
I convey through my work. And I don't owe you
(38:59):
my ballot card. I don't need to tell you that.
And in fact, Sidney Sweeney did an interview recently as well,
which has been widely criticized, but I thought some of
her answers were actually masterful. And she was asked about this,
and here's what she said.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
The criticism of the content, which was basically that maybe
specifically in this political climate, like wait, people shouldn't joke
about genetic superiority like that was kind of like the
criticism broadly speaking. And since you were talking about this,
I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk
about that specifically.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I think that when I have an issue, though, I
want to speak about people.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Here the subtext of that they're referring, of course, to
that American eagle.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, she did.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
That. Whole interview with GQ was basically trying to go
Sydney Sweeney into distancing herself from rumors that she supports
Donald Trump. The whole interview, it wasn't about her acting.
It wasn't about even her personal life really, even though
she is dating Scooter Braun, which is weird. It was
all about trying to get at whether or not she
(40:01):
is a Trump supporter, and she was not playing that game.
And this is the thing.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
She's twenty eight years old, she grew up in a
red state or whatever, and we all know from Australia
to the US, pretty much anywhere in the world. You
know what, the biggest thing that dictates how you voted,
your post code. That's why I think that even the
story of how our tolerance for people who vote differently
to us changes over a lifetime, I think that's a
(40:25):
story of wisdom. I think that people over sixty five
know something about having met a lot of different people
from a lot of different walks of life, and they're
just more comfortable going. I'd like to align on values
with you, but that doesn't mean that we have to
vote the same. Do you agree, Claire?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Look, I just want to point out that we have
played grabs from two young white women whose experience in
the political sphere is very different to say, if they
were from a minority, and the politics that is current
affects those people quite deeply, and I feel like it's
a very privileged place to come from to say I
(41:01):
will no longer discuss it because in reality, they do
have a platform. Whether it makes a big difference for
who people vote for or not, they still have a
platform on which they can disagree with politics. It hurts people,
and I think that should be noted. But I come
from a time as a kid where you never spoke
about your politics. I very distinctly remember going to my
(41:21):
local primary school with my mum on election day one
year and I said to her, like, who did you
vote for? When she came out, and she said, we
don't share that information. We don't talk about that. And
it was very much like politics and religion were no
go zones when it came to discussing anything with your
friendship circle, especially around the dinner table. You just didn't
because it was divisive and because it could end in tears,
and so you saved your relationships by not discussing those things.
(41:46):
But I think now we more understand just how much
politics hurts people. And I think if we are in
a position to say something, to say something out loud,
that maybe might make a difference to somebody somewhere. I
think that's really important to do. But in whether you
should end a relationship because you think differently from someone,
I think that is where we're really falling down, because
(42:06):
we have an opportunityy to burst through people's echo chambers,
and instead we're fortifying echo chambers for people. So if
you say to somebody because they believe differently to you
that you no longer want to spend any time with them.
They will organically move into spheres of people who are
more like minded. And all that does is create these
little loops of people, never busting out of that bubble
(42:28):
to explore anything outside of the world that they live in.
So we are doing ourselves a disservice by not allowing discourse.
We just shut it down and we say we are
no longer friends, instead of trying to talk things through
and understand. And that's what we see happening in politics everywhere.
They have echo chambers in their own party systems, and
so they don't even consider what's happening outside of that bubble.
(42:49):
They just automatically shut it down and move forward with
whatever it is is they're on their agenda for that day.
So we are creating just more fortified echo chambers from.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That, including ourselves, right, because we're not allowing our own
echo chamber to be challenged. But I want to ask
you on the Sydney thing. So she said, I've always
believed that I'm not here to tell people what to think.
I'm just here to open their eyes to different ideas.
And Jennifer Lawrence sort of said a similar thing, which is,
I think the focus should be on decision makers, right,
(43:19):
So when a big thing happens politically, we do see
a lot of people jump to Taylor Swift say something
like and I think that that's sometimes easier to run
to a comment section of even your favorite influencer or
your favorite musician, rather than lobbying a politician.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
It's because we don't have that direct influence on the
decision makers. Even though they are elected by us, they
very rarely listen to us. So when you can reach
out to a celebrity and be seen in the comment
section and have maybe a news service pick up your
comments and have that bit like that feels like you
actually have some agency in all of this, whereas talking
(43:59):
to your decision makers, sending an email to some nameless,
faceless person in a front office that may or may
never respond to you like it feels very powerless.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I just feel like you both are talking about celebrities
like they're different from us in this day age, and
on this score, I don't think they are. What I
mean is Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney. Yes, they both
have movies to sell, but all of us have to
work with other people, have to figure out how we
get what we want from other people, have to nurture
relationships with other people, whether they be our fans, or
(44:29):
our family or our colleagues. And what I found interesting
about both these women who are sort of we think
coming from different sides of a political spectrum. We don't
know that in Sydney Sweeney's case, but we think that
they've both come to the same conclusion, which is, to
get what you want from other people in twenty twenty five,
you cannot talk about politics. And that's what I found
(44:50):
so relatable about it. Yes, they both talked about their
art and about their craft, but really that's what it
comes down to. I think, if you want to get
what you want from other people without having them shut down,
without having them cut you off. We've seen the survey results.
People will cut you off if they think that you
have different politics to them. Is that a good situation
to be in? Maybe it's just a return to what
(45:11):
you were saying, Claire. In the olden days, there was
the conventional wisdom you didn't talk about politics, and then
we had this moment for a few decades where that
was seen as perfectly fine fault of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I think that that's a good point, Amelia, that it's like,
have we returned to a family Christmas? We will not
talk about it around the dinner table, we wint I'm
sensing that.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
A little bit.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I mean, Australia invented the secret ballot. We have always
been at people who is reluctant to share our political views,
certainly compared to our friendzy Americans who when you register
to vote, that you register to vote with a particular
party and you can look up anyone's party affiliation.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That is not the Australian way.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
But I'm wondering if the last couple of decades of
everyone talking about politics all the time was just an
anomaly and was maybe just bad manners. Maybe we do
just need to regress to what our grandmothers told us,
which is do not talk about politics.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
I would like to go back to a time where
politics wasn't such an atainment like it felt like back
in the day, politicians were beige and they did beij
things like make policy decisions and try to balance budgets
like it was beije as hell, and we didn't care
enough and a lot of Australians would prefer to be
fined then go to the polling station, not because you
(46:25):
know it's an imposition for them, but that it's literally
just don't care. And I feel like we should care
less about politics because they should be getting on with
the business of just running a freaking country and doing
right by the citizens of said country. But instead we
have this big entertainment system now where it's like they're
outdoing each other with stunts and terrible things, and like
it's become a different beast now and that's why we
(46:47):
talk about it so much, because it's lost its beige
intentions and now it's less about running a country than
making a statement.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Claire, I swear this question is relevant. Do you have
your handbag on you?
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yes, hang on, it's on the floor. Okay, don't judge me.
It's a bum bag.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Oh it's a bum bag.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
A bum bag, but it's a Mimco bum bag. Does
that make me you were cross body or you were
as a Yes? Yeah, me too. Sometimes I carried around
with its little handle.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I'm not ready to like calf de night it and
wear it around my I.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Know I've seen some people do it out in the wild.
And they look amazing, but it's not me. Claire.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Can you tell me three things that are in that bag?
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Can tell you that there is a key chain of
Sylvester hanging off the front of it, which I got it.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Yep, you've dazzled it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
I have my foh balm, which I can't say out
loud because it's a swear word, but it's f off
herpes because I have a cold sail. Oh, it's not
very exciting. I have some toothpicks that I stole from
the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Excuse me, Claire. Can I see in your other hand
that you're holding a wallet?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Okay, this is very interesting because we did an episode,
a subscriber episode with myself, m Vernon and Holly where
we went through our bags. We did a What's in
your back?
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Just surprise?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
They were horrific things we found in there that were
very embarrassing. But between the three of us, I don't
think we had a single wallet.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I not only have one, No, I have.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yes. Do you have coins?
Speaker 1 (48:11):
What do you do with them? I sometimes use them
to pay for goods and services, which their intended purpose?
Speaker 2 (48:19):
This is wild?
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Am I nannying out? Right now?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Is this? Like?
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Am I in my old Lady era? Is this what happening?
I don't understand. There's also keysy do you want a
phone that has pay on it? No?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
But I would love that, But no you don't Apple pay,
Like do you know? Okay, this is this is a
whole It is a whole intervention.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
A bank gave me cards to.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Do that with, Like why do I need to Okay,
all right, I need an intervention? This is incredible?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
All right?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
On last Thursday Subscribe episode you can listen Claire to
how the world has moved on from wallets and you
can also find out the disgusting things we found in
our bags and they just they reveal some awful, awful
things about us. There is a link to that episode
in the show notes. Thank you out louders for joining us,
(49:06):
and thank you Claire for filling in today. Move over,
mister Beast. Do any of you guys even know him?
We don't watch mister Bates.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
I have a small child. Of course, you have taught
me who mister Beast is.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Well have they taught you who we are? Claire? Because
we are on YouTube in a big way?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Are we YouTuber?
Speaker 2 (49:22):
We're YouTubers, so you can go and watch us on YouTube.
And I found a comment that I really liked, and
it was saying that our friend Amelia Lester over here
looks like Maggie gillenhole. Have you ever had that she does?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
I used to get it constantly, I see him and
I actually was one time in a shop in Brooklyn
and guess what happened. My dog will Ganger walked in
and Maggie and I and we used to look much
more similar than we do now.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Did you like? Spider Man me and each other like
point at each other like you know?
Speaker 5 (49:53):
Are you me?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Am I? You? You know? There's nothing more pathetic than
someone who was not a celebrity going up to a
famous person.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
And saying we look the same. So I chose not
to draw attention to it. I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Well, if you want to see how much Amelia looks
like our friend Maggie, you can see us over on YouTube.
We will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
Mamma.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
we have recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to Mama out Loud. What women are actually talking
about on Monday, the tenth of November. I am Jesse Stevens,
I am Amelia Lester, I'm Claire Murphy. And I don't
know if you know this, guys, but there's this actress
who's been really doing a great job on not a
great job at all acasm called Kim Kardashian. You might
be across her.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
She's not been doing so well this week. She'd have
it a bit of a rough time. I think she
might have just hit failure era. And so I would
like to just have a moment with you all to
discuss how a multi up presuming she's a billionaire now
multimillion billionaire, whatever she is, woman who has a thousand
businesses is now failing?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Can you be friends with people who believe very different
things from you?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Politically?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I want to talk about Jennifer Lawrence's answer to that question.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
And did women ruin the workplace? Allegedly they did? I
knew that we've done, say exactly exactly, in which case
my question is can we all go home now?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah? I was feeling guilty at three am the other morning.
That must have been in first of though. Friends. In
case you missed it, the VIC government announced their big
Women's pain report from their inquiry yesterday. I don't know
if you heard. They announced this pilot initiative to give
women getting their IUDs inserted the green whistle. And first
of all, we need to establish who here has had
(01:37):
a green whistle experience. Jesse Emelia, I don't know what
that is.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Oh my goodness, I'm obsessed with green whistles because I desperately.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Do you have one? When you broke you? Let no.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was at the top of a mountain and there
was a little like lock box where they keep the
green whistle, and when they looked in there, it hadn't
been replaced from last time. And in fact, in the
whole town there was no green whistle. It just didn't exist.
And so I thought about that green whistle for about
eight straight hours.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Okay, well, let me tell you it was the only
one in the room who's had a green whil experience.
That it is one of those things. I don't know
what drug it is, actually, but it's something that's given
to you in the moment. We have had like an
extreme pain incident broke your leg. For me, it was
I snapped my cruci at tendon. It's so that say,
paramedics can help you deal with the pain whilst they
transfer you to hospital. So it's short acting, it's very effective,
(02:27):
so it kicks in really quickly, and I'm not sure
if it's actually helping with the pain or just your
brain is now having super super fun and is distracted
and doesn't care about the pain anymore. Because I went
from like howling and crying to being like, oh, that's
a pretty cartoon on the ceiling of the cubicle that
they landed me in at the hospital. So it's really
short acting and very effective.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So it's like a preloaded it's got drugs in a whistle.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
And you just kind of like breathe it in. And
so it's always like sideline of kids sports, that kind
of stuff. And I thought when I read this headline,
I was like, this is genius, because I've interviewed women
in the past who have said that they got NIUD
inserted and it was turn out of ten pain. They
fainted on the train on the way home. Others say
it was absolutely fine. But the fact that that hasn't
(03:14):
been part of the process or something that you're off it.
I've even thought it with I remember the most painful
part of my labor was the stretcher sweep thing that
they did, and I was like, can I have a
green whistle for that? Maybe not, I don't know. It
might not be good for the baby. But the fact
that pain relief isn't at the forefront of the practitioner's
(03:34):
mind when you are going inside someone to a very
tender area. I think this is very exciting progress.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Have either of you watched a single episode of All's
Fair yet?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
No, I have not, But I must say I'm finding
the reviews very tantalizing. And the more I read, the
more zero stars I see, the more I'm leaning.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh, guys, you're in for a treat. It is obviously
Kim Kardashian's lady feature into acting. She's done a few
gigs before, but this is her latest. It is not
getting the reviews that we'd perhaps thought when this idea
was being formed. But maybe it's a little more strategic
than we thought. But Kim's flop era, we believe may
(04:19):
have just arrived because she's not just failing where it
comes to this particular venture. She's also failed in her
legal career this week as well, so we think maybe
she's starting to learn a few lessons on this new
pathway to failure. I am a great connoisseur of terrible things.
So if someone tells me that something has a bad review,
(04:39):
I will often like it. And I think it's because
I have very low brow taste buds, Like I just
go into these things purely for entertainment value. And so
this if you are not across All's fair. This is
the new Ryan Murphy drama. It's about a women only
divorce lawyers firm, which stars Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, Nissi Nash.
They're like your core three divorce lawyers who've come from
(05:01):
like this past of you know, middle aged white man
law firms where they're overlooked and undervalued, and so they
come out as these powerful women and they drop these
one liners which are awful, and they deal with cheating
husbands and controlling men, and like they get the best
for these women their clients that have you know, been
(05:23):
very poorly treated. And I can tell you now I'm
three episodes in the acting is like beyond terrible. I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Why Naomi Watts and Sarah Paulson, who's also in it
and has kind of write like Ryan Murphy's News, and
Glenn Close.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
How can the oh my god, Glenn Close?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
How can these people be acting badly? They're very good actors.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
It has got to be in the writing. And I
was trying to find it. Who was in the writer's
room for this, And as far as I can tell,
there's not a single woman on the writing style so
interesting take. I mean, if there is and I've missed it,
I apologized, But as far as I can tell, there
was not many women writing this, And so the way
in which these women have come together, like the friendship
that's supposed to be like the all encompassing part of
(06:05):
the backstory of them, feels very forced and uncomfortable. They're
delivering these one liners like they should have impact, but
they just seem kind of funny. But the big part
of it, I think is just it is bougie and classless,
and there is designer threads and loads of bling and
it just taps into that part of my brain that
just loves and it's like going on a roller coaster
(06:27):
at you know movie world, like you know it's going
to be awful, bit at the same time, like you're
adrenaline is pumping and you really love it. Like that's
all I can say is keeping me coming back because
the flash in the Glitz is everything.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What I can't work out is that Kim Kardashian is
known for her blankness right like, even she is expressionless.
Her face doesn't really move, she doesn't have any pause,
she doesn't emote at all. So the pivot into acting
is a very interesting one for me. But I wanted
to ask you, Claire. I read this incredible review in
(06:59):
The Atlantic, and I want to read you a line
and then I want you to tell me if this
was your experience of watching it, because I think that
this also might signify a broad a cultural shift towards
a very dire place. The author, who is Sophie Gilbert, wrote,
I can't call it a television show because it isn't one. Rather,
it's Instagram reels. At episode length, forty five minute collections
(07:21):
of bedazzled moving images targeted at the idly scrolling second
screen viewer seems pass quickly, as if to emulate the
true feed experience. If you're not already on your phone,
you may as well be.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, that seems pretty accurate, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
I did see one still from it which was Kim
wearing a sort of tweed skirt with a believe it's
called a whale tail, a visible G string poking.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Out the back.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I mean, look, I'm not a lawyer, but is that
to actually wear that to court?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
This show, well, let me just prefers. I'm three episodes
in and they have yet to go to court. This
is all boardroom experiences at this point. So this is
like husband and wife sitting down across the table, very combative,
like they often come in with a bunch of men
and they sit down and they say things like oh,
all the ladies together, like that kind of vibe, and
then the ladies are like and we are going to
(08:13):
destroy you, and you're like, yes, girl, go get them.
And then they deliver these like terrible lines and you're
like cool, you still want like are really happy for
your client, but like these storylines are wrapped up in milliseconds.
You barely get to know the clients. Like Jessica Simpson
is a client and her role is like exceptional, like exceptional.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
What do you mean by exceptional like she's a great actor.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
No, no, no, nothing to do with her acting experience.
It is the fact that they brought her in to
play the character that they have and it kind of
plays very much into her real life plastic surgery experiences.
It's just great. And also Glenn Close, like, you cannot
fault this woman. She's incredible. And she delivers a line
to Sarah Paulson's character where she says, like the world
would be so much happier if your mother just swallowed
(08:57):
And that coming out of Len Close's mouth is like, whoa,
it's camp and it's terrible, Like it's just awful, awful, terrible.
But this is from Kim Kardashian American Horror Story because
she got Rave reviews for that, all right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Because I have two theories as to why this has happened,
because I don't believe in twenty twenty five we are accidentally,
especially with Ryan Murphy who created Glee, like he is
a very incredible creator who knows what he's doing, I
don't believe that this happened by accident. Right, So the
first theory is one I've seen going around on substack,
(09:32):
which is Basically, the zero percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes
is a plant, and it's there on purpose because there
is nothing that makes you want to watch a show
more than the thought is it really that bad? Like
I want to go and prove for myself that this
is the worst show ever, And that's been part of
the attraction, and early indications suggests that people are flocking.
(09:57):
The second thing is that there are seventeen executive producers
on this show. They're used to it's wild, right, including
pretty much all of the actors. So you've got what's
is one? I think Kardashian is one, Paulhan is one,
And what that means is like decades ago, you'd have
three or four, So the room of people making decisions
(10:19):
is quite small.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It's like this flex that every actor sort of wants
to be an EP as well. And I think we're
starting to create these vanilla Frankenstein's like where we've got
too much input that it then just dilutes an idea
and becomes absolute garbage the next show you're watching. Have
a look at how many people had creative input, and
(10:44):
there is a threshold at which there is just too much,
Like did Kim Kardashian need a seat at the table
like that.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I think you're onto something there because and just like
that had the same issue. It did too the actors
were executive producers and Rotten Tomatos. For some time now,
people have been talking about the fact that because it's
so important, it is getting gained. Yeah, and I don't
know if you remember this, but about a year ago
it came out that Paddington iiO had the highest Rotten
(11:12):
Tomatoes rating of any movie ever, higher than Citizen Kane,
which is often regarded as the cinematic masterpiece of the
twentieth century. And you just got to wonder about any
rating system. I mean, look, I think Paddington Too is
delightful and Hugh Grant is as usual stealing the show.
But I just wonder if Paddington two really is the
best movie of all time.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So, as I mentioned, well, this is Kim's big fail
of the moment, but just quietly she failed again this
week because she didn't pass the bar. And anyone who's
been watching the Kardashians nose that, like this has been
a big theme throughout all of the seasons, and she's
been studying very hard, and she's been working advocating for
people in prison, and she failed the bar. So this
(11:56):
feels like Kim Kardashian is failing. In her personal life.
She's failing. I mean, she can't control the men that
come into her sphere, so I guess that's out of
her control. But career wise, like her actual career as
a lawyer is failing. Her alternate career as an actress,
she is failing. Are we now witnessing Kim Kardashian's flop era?
And what can she learn from all of this? We think?
(12:17):
I mean, she's fine. I love this for her.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
I think this is why she is still just as
relevant today as she was ten years ago, fifteen years ago.
It's because she is willing to keep reinventing herself and
taking risks, and she's failed lots of times. Like I'm
thinking back to her skincare line that she tried to
launch a couple of times that never took off, and
it should have. Skims took off because she got really
(12:42):
smart people around her and she knew exactly what moment
she was in. But I love her failing the California Bar.
Isn't this the second or third time that she's failed?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
At this point, I don't know which bar she's failed,
becausemember she failed the baby bar last time, and whether
this is the full fledged one or a retake of
the baby bar, I'm not sure, but yeah, she has.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Failed before, so I believe that she has now passed
the baby bar, but that it was the last time
she could possibly do it the time that she passed,
and then she studied really hard with this. She did
say she relied heavily on chat GPT and she has
some firm words for chat GPT. She says that sometimes
it's more like a go girl, believe in yourself, and
she's like, I just need the answer, which yes, I agree,
(13:21):
But I think she has entered her flop era. Kim
Kardashian is nothing if not self aware, and that is
her superpower. So even her caption on Instagram about the
All Fairs All's Fair thing, which was like, have you
guys watched the critically acclaimed All's Fair yet? Like she
thought that was funny that it was bad and she
(13:43):
posted about failing. She didn't have to post that she
failed that exam. But I mean, we all enter flop eras,
we've got to own them. There is humor in them,
and all power to Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I think this is amazing because I've had these conversations
with my daughter very recently, because when I pick her
up from school, I'd ask her about, you know, tell
me one thing that happened today, what did you succeed
at today? And We've had these kind of conversations, and
then one day I just asked her, did you fail
at anything today? And she was like, oh, I don't know.
I don't want to think about that. And then I
was like, but we learn from that, Like if you
(14:16):
fail at something, you learn some really big lessons from failing.
And she was like, oh, And now we have conversations
about successes and failures, so that as she grows up,
she's going to be like, Okay, what did I learn
from that fail rather than oh my god, I failed.
I'm the worst human in the world, and now I
can never do that again because I've failed at it
and I must be terrible. I love talking about failure,
(14:36):
and I'm like you, Amelia. I think this is a
really great moment for her because she's embracing it, she
learns from it, she keeps moving forward, she keeps trying,
she does things that gets her out of her comfort zone.
She does something new and different and incredible, and then sure,
sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it fails. But she's not
just hanging off of the Kardashian success for the rest
of her life. It's really quite interesting this time of
(14:58):
her life.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
I've got another little tidbit of gossip related to the Kardashians,
and it's about Chris Jenner, who's not failing at anything
right now.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
She is in whatever the opposite of a floppy era is.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
She's got her brand new face that has been critically acclaimed,
unlike Kim Show. And she just celebrated her seventieth birthday
on Friday night in Los Angeles in Beverly Hills at
Jeff Bezos's mansion, and the guest list was very impressive.
It was everyone from Mark Zuckerberg to Oprah and Gail
to Rita Wilson. Tom Hanks's wife is also an actress
(15:34):
in her own right, to Miranda Kerr and the Snapchat
guy she's married.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
To, Evan Adele, was there.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Interestingly, she covered her face with her handbag on the
way in, which reminded me of remember when Leonardo DiCaprio
went to the Bezel's wedding and just pulled his hat
down on.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I would absolutely go to christ Janna's seventieth and I
would absolutely hide my face on my way in and
out because I think the out louders would be, you know,
probably call me out fairly, but I'd be like, guys,
I'm there for the gossip.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
But what I found really interesting about this is that
Chris Jenna was not always Hollywood royalty. In fact, she
was on the outs in Hollywood all through the twenty tens.
The Kardashian family was seen as very naff, sort of embarrassing.
They certainly didn't have any credibility in the sort of
moneyed halls of Beverly Hills. And now Chris Jenna seems
(16:22):
to be the queen of Hollywood, and she's bringing together
not just actors like the Riata Wilson's of the world,
but also like media moguls like Oprah and then tech
moguls like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos. And my genuine
question is, how did she pull this off? And why
does everyone feel that they need to be there at
Chris Jenna's birthday party?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I reckon behind the scenes. She must be an incredible networker, right,
Like she must be one of those people that everyone
actually quite likes. This happens in like Australian media circles,
where it's not who you'd expect who were like the
most connected and almost the most popular. Did I read
though that Chris Jenna had Harry and Meghan Harry the.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Duke and Duchess of Sussex were there. But I want
to just push you on that, Jesse, because we knew
there were friends, by the way, because Megan had sent
her Rose when she launched her Rose, so that's when
that connection first came about. But I want to distinguish
between someone who's a good networker and someone who's just
a lot of fun to be around, because that's what
I'm trying to figure out with her. Do people think
(17:23):
it's strategic to show up at her party or is
she just the best fun in Hollywood? Oh?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I think she might be really fun. I think she
might be really fun too. But I also feel like
the Kardashian power has shifted over the years. Remember when
their power was kind of intangible, like they were famous
for being famous. There was all of that, and I
think as we've kind of progressed, and these women have
become incredibly successful business women in their own right, and
(17:50):
you know, Chris still at the head of that family
as their agent and taking care of business, and her
influence has grown and grown and grown, and I think
just the nature of the world that we now live
in that's less about the old money and about the
old ways and more about the you and the flashy
and the next and the latest. I think her power
is actually shifted into a place where I think people
probably are also networking with her in a way that
(18:12):
they wouldn't have done ten years ago. I have a
little piece of gossip about Jeff Bezos. He has a house.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
In Washington, DC, where I used to live, and I
have a friend who once went to a party at
his Washington DC mansion.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And here is the little tidbit.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
He owns two mansions and they're on other sides of
the street from each other there, and one of the
mansions is just for parties, and it's full of like
really historic, pricey memorabilia and beautiful frange pictures and it's
specifically designed to entertain people and impress people. And then
on the other side of the Street is his actual
house that he lives in, And what's the bet that
that's just got some comfy sofas and some oh some
(18:50):
big big screen TVs. And I just love the idea
of a dedicated party house for Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
After the break, the New York Times asked a very
simple question, nothing wrong with asking a question. They just
wanted to know if women ruined the workplace? And the
internet got really mad, and we are here to dissect it.
Did women ruin the workplace? The New York Times? They did,
(19:20):
and they took the words right out of our mouths.
They are reading our minds. Last week, the New York
Times published that headline, and as tends to happen on
the internet, there was a lot of blowback to the headline.
I think most people didn't actually read what was beyond it.
That's not to say the headline isn't offensive or problematic,
(19:40):
but the article itself was somewhat more complicated, and we'll
get to that.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
They also changed the headline.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh, they changed the headline like six times.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
So it did start off as did women ruin the Workplace?
And people were upset, they said, we've heard you. They
changed it to did liberal feminism ruin the workplace?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, they kept trying to kind of hedge hedge hedge,
and you could just hear the panic in the newsroom,
which a it's quite enjoying. Host Ross Douthat interviewed two
conservative female writers. One is named Helen Andrews, the other
is Leah Libresco Sergeant, and they make two very different points,
but he sits down with them and basically they all
(20:23):
explore the idea that workplaces have become more woke, and
wokism is of course a result of the feminization of
the workplace. So apparently women they care more about this
equality bullshit. They are more driven by empathy, social justice, priorities,
consensus over decision making.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
God, we're awful, I know.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And this shift has meant that we have lost important
things like hierarchy, assertiveness, and risk taking, which are all
essential to a thriving workplace. Helen Andrews says that feminine
vices such as gossip and an inability to deal with
conflict directly have led to very corrosive things like the
meter movement.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Don't get her started on.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
The TV show All's Fair, while in fact, can we
pin that on men? Because men wrote that they delivered
the scripts the poor women, which I feel like is
actually kind of a metaphor for what's going on here.
But before we go to did women ruin the workplace?
I want to explore the idea of did women in
fairness change the workplace? What do you reckon?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I mean, of course they did, moving from this notion
that a man's only role in this world is to
go to work and make money and come home. This
is an opportunity that I feel men have maybe let
them pass by, but inviting women into the workplace freed
them up to have more life than breadwinner. And when
women came in it of course introduced things like maternity
(21:53):
leave initiatives. It also created things like workplace discrimination legislation
came on board, so things definitely changed when women came
into the workforce. But like I said, men lost an
opportunity to pull back from the workforce, to not have
that be their entire identity. And I think this is
where we're failing men in particular, as no one taught
(22:15):
them what to do once they weren't the only ones
doing that important role, and they've kind of been left
wondering what their purpose is in life now because they
did not take the on id to say this. Conservative
men in particular didn't take the opportunity to explore becoming
better and more involved fathers, or finding ways to better
their society and community, or you know, looking beyond their
(22:37):
worth as a dollar sign. Like it's a really interesting
moment where we could have collectively made everyone's lives different
and more interesting, and instead, conservative men in particular chose
to stand still.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
All right, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here because
I would be lying if I didn't confess that I
have sat with lots of people who are very high
up in businesses, who work across lots and lots of
different industries, young people, older people, lots of different people
who have said some version of this right when they're
(23:11):
in private. So they will say something like women are
harder to manage workplaces with more women are bit here
they will say women are conflict avoidant, And so what
you get is a lot of they're not honest with
each other. We are finding that a lot of this
social justice stuff is impacting our bottom line. I'm not
saying I agree with any of this, but like, if
(23:33):
this is a conversation that is happening, and people are
going the workplace is changing. And that's the thing is
that once you get women in, even when the subject
of minorities, it's like yeah, and those people are going
to change a workplace. That's also why we want to
diversify and have a more inclusive workplace. But is that
worth discussing. I mean, if that is a true phenomenon, yeah, Look.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I'm going to piggyback on that and say I was
really interested to listen to this conversation because Helen Andrews
starts from an accurate place. The place she starts from
is that we are losing trust in all these affe
authority figures and institutions that we used to believe and trust.
So I'd think of government, I'd think of yes, media,
I think of churches, I'd think of all sorts of
(24:17):
institutions that are failing us now because we don't trust
them like we used to. And so her question is why,
and her answer happens to be women. And you know,
I think that's what we're spending time unpacking here. But
it's a reasonable question to ask why did institutions start
to fail us? And her basic point is that women
care more about relationships than men, and men care more
(24:40):
about rules than women do. That's the sort of premise
of what she's saying here. And I think it's very
silly to say that men care more about rules than
women while we're watching the world burn, because a bunch
of men who are probably at Chris Jenner's birthday party
don't care about rules at all.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Her other point is that men are warriors and they
have been like evolutionarily primed to go to right, so
they are all about conflict, aggression and resolution. And I'm like,
I don't know if you've read a story about war,
but war is not often a story of resolution, Like
it takes a lot of time and a lot of death.
(25:20):
And if that is the blueprint of our corporate workforce,
then I have a few criticians.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
World War One was followed by World War yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I don't think that they all then hold hands and go.
Now we all agree where she says women obviously their
only job is to have and look after children, and
therefore they are more about social dynamics talking.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Jesse are not being fair about this book that she loves.
What she says is.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Then are warriors, meaning they go out and fight battles.
Women are warriors, meaning they worry about things exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
And what we need is the workforce is best run
by warriors, which is the war ones. And if you
can see it.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Sounds better in an American access, I will say.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I am just I'm really frustrated obviously at these conversations
because it's not conversation, it's provocation. And it makes feminism
this idea that women want to be seen as same
and it's not that at all. We obviously are different
to men, like that's not the question, and that was
never what feminism was about. Feminism is about equality. It's
(26:32):
about political equality, it's about social equality, it's about economic equality.
It's not about being the same as men. Women bring
different things to the table. It doesn't mean they're worse things.
We are flawed just as men are. We're going to
make mistakes and do things just as men do. But
at the end of the day, if we can together
work together to make it an equal experience, regardless of
(26:53):
what skills we bring to the table, that is what
feminism aimed to do. And the problem with the word
feminism is it has the word feminine in it, and
men conservative men in particular, see that as lesser. We
don't want to be that that is a threat to
my masculinity instead of seeing it as an accompaniment or
(27:13):
a way to improve yourself is by aligning with that
femininity and exploring that and seeing how that can work
better together. Because the patriarchy, yes, started with men who
will worry yours and who decided that this combatitive nature
of government and the way that people should be put
in their place. That's why that was created at a
(27:34):
time where that difference between men and women was because
men were physically stronger, and so that was how that
had to play out in that time. In our existence
right now, we understand we do jobs that don't require physicality,
and for that you don't need to be a man
or a woman or any gender in particular. You can
actually be the same on the same playing field. But
(27:57):
you have to understand that that system has to be
dismantled first. And men are so unwilling to let that
go because when you're at the top of the food chain,
why would you want to share that with anyone?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I think some men are and interestingly here some
women are right, And there's a question at the end
of the interview where Helen is asked to name a
feminine attribute that she thinks is good and she can't
do it. She can's going back and forth and being
like she really struggles to go. Is there anything about
the feminine or female inclusion in the workplace that might
(28:30):
be read as positive? But I see your point clear
that it's like it's about the workplace is going to change.
And if you look at your Jeff Bezos as the
example of your masculine vices, So let's pillage the environment,
let's exploit people. Let's money at all costs a certain.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Pe in water bottles instead of having toilet breaks if
they work at an Amazon.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Fashion exactly, and you know what, that is profitable.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And if that's the world that Helen Andrews is advocating for,
then you are right. But I think that a lot
of us men and women are going that's not the
kind of workplace that's actually functional or sustainable or works
long term.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It's really hard for women to pea and water bottles
really difficult unless you have a shi wi that will
make things.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And number two, i'd just say, if you've got a
party house in a regular house, maybe you should interrogate
how you're running a business that made that possible exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Maybe you just need one house there. The female said it,
I said it, How dad are you?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
If you were born before nineteen ninety seven, I've got
a few things I want to update you on, and
if you were born after nineteen ninety seven, I'd suggest
you should listen along.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You might learn something. How about that?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Respect your olders, sorry, respect your elders. The first thing
I wanted to tell us people born before nineteen ninety
seven is that I went to an oasis this weekend.
Oh okay, I went to their concert and it was
so great well that I had the best time. Holly
was there too. We were singing our heart out to
Don't Look Back in Anger. The second thing I want
(30:01):
to tell you about is that we are apparently doing
something else wrong.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Now, can we just add it to the list of things? Okay,
what are we doing wrong today? Amelia? Millennials go around?
Because I just found out that we were getting made
butter for something called the millennial Smile.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, so the millennial smile. It's essentially what Tyra Banks
told us to do when she said to smiles, remember that.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
It's smiling with your eyes, smiling with your eyes.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Your lips are closed, you're smiling with your eyes, You're
looking very benevolent about the world. And look, I would
rather be accused of having the millennial smile than the
gen z stare. I'm just going to put that out there.
But also I did feel deeply shamed and guilty when
I watched this video because I absolutely do the millennial smile,
particularly in selfies.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Okay, because what was distinctive about this smile too, is
that you don't open your lips, right, I like yours.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
First raised up. But it's not dark faced. No, it's
just like a very gentle like I don't even know
how to smirk.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It's how I smiled when I had braces, which was
like I'm trying to hide my dental work. Now, I
think because I had braces on my teeth, I was scappy,
and I had that two years. I feel like now
I'm still just stoked. I don't have races anymore, so
I smile with all the teeth. But we had to
have a smile in our bank for when we took
(31:25):
our forty eight MySpace photos like an album of our
night out where we just looked exactly the same at
the nightclub with our digital camera, where we would do
that face with our like good angle.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's interesting because I've got a slightly different theory ast
how originated, which is maybe because I'm an elder millennial
and you are a baby millennial. Yes, that the term
us elder millennials still remember taking the little camera roll
to the chemist to get the photos printed. Yes, And
there was always this moment that you went to pick
(31:58):
up the photos once they were printed, and your hands
will practically be shaking as you open this envelope to
see if amongst the twenty four photos that you had careful,
there may be one that is good enough for you
to perhaps frame. Yeah, and you put up on your
walls venue. And so we didn't have endless, endless opportunities
to take photos. We only had the photos that we
(32:21):
had on our twenty four photo role, Okay, And so
we had to develop a fool proof way of smiling.
And I see you not in Claire, You know what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Okay, So we couldn't risk it with teeth.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Here's what you're saying, we couldn't. We can teek it
with teeth. Teeth changes everything. And that's the thing. Is
like when you are looking at your face in a camera,
like if you don't smile with your teeth, it like
elongates your cheeks a little bit, and like you don't
look like a crazy person. And sometimes when you smile
with all your teeth, it changes the whole shape of
(32:51):
your face and like it broadens out your cheeks and
it like changes squints up your eyes a little bit.
Sometimes you want your eyes to be the focus, not
the mouth. So it's been practiced in a way that
you know that if I deliver this photo in a
certain way, it'll probably turn out kind of okay. The
smile is unpredictable and it depends on who you're standing
(33:11):
next to, what angle you're looking at, Like, there's a
lot of unknowns with a smile. Oh, I've been practicing forever.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I lose my eyes, Like there are lots of issues. Also,
my chin scrunches. There is a high probability of error.
I just wish that I had maybe had this advice
before my wedding.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Well, can I just say I went to my niece's
twenty first birthday very recently, and she had like this
glorious setup with like draped fabric and candles and like
things that people were posing in front of to have
their photos taken. And someone handed me a camera and
said can you take some photos for us? And I
was like, of course, I'm cool. I can hang with
twenty one year olds and take a decent photo. I've
(33:49):
been doing this for a long time.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
I think that you using the phrase I can hang
with twenty one year olds was your first.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I mean internally, yes, but I would never say that
out loud in front of the young people for fear
of being judged. But I walked up and I held
up the camera and before I'd even like gone to press,
they were like no, no, no, no, no, no, no no,
this is all wrong. Step back. I now have to
take the photos from like under boob height. Oh I
thought of the camera. No no, no, we do not
(34:17):
take from above. You take from below. And then you
take forty eight photos speech shots, whatever you want to
do of them, kind of subtly shifting without smiling, and
then some with smiles and then some with them on
the opposite sides. But it's all done from like this
under boob height, because they want the whole fit in
the photo. There's no more above shots anymore. That is gone,
(34:38):
that is out. There's a whole new law coming up
through the ranks of how to take a photo, when
is appropriate to take a photo, and what faces you
pull in that photo. Like these are lessons that I
am still learning, Claire.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
There might be law, there might be new lessons, but
all I have to say to my gen z's is yes.
This weekend I took a millennial smile photo from above
as a selfie while singing Wonder War, and I regret nothing.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
After the break.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Do you have any friends who you don't agree with politically,
maybe even you don't agree with your partner politically. Well,
Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney have some differing theories on
how you should.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Deal with that.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummyer
out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link in
the show notes to get your daily dose of out
Loud and a big thank you to all.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So I've started getting the newspaper delivered because I'm regressing
into my old man era, and my.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Best friend still buys the newspaper, but she buys it
almost specifically for the TV guide. She's such a nana.
I don't love it.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I was reading it on the weekend and I was
millennial smiling as I turned the pages, modeling healthy reading
habits for my children.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Do you sniff your newspaper? No?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I love, Oh God, the smell of a newspaper. I
do miss it. Well, I must do that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I stopped and I read this survey result that really
surprised me, shocked me, appalled me. It was a survey
conducted by McKinnon, an Australian firm, and basically the headline
is it says that young people are much more likely
to cut ties in a friendship if someone disagrees with
(36:28):
them politically. Basically, different political views have become a deal
breaker for young people. And the stats are quite striking.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And this was Australian.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
This is Australia.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
One in five eighteen to twenty four year old Australians
say that different political views are a deal breaker. But
you compare that to people who over sixty five, and
that's only one in twenty.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Say that different political views are a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And it's interesting because we've been seeing a lot of
celebrities recently, mostly in the US, being sort of called
to question about their political.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Views, and they know.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
I think they know instinctively that this has become the
third rail, particularly for young people. Like celebrities used to
be comfortable showing political views with us, but now they
sense that the vibe has shifted. So, for instance, here's
Jennifer Lawrence talking about this exact issue recently to The
New York Times.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
I think I'm in a complicated recalibration because I'm also
an artist, and I with this temperature and the way
that things can turn out, I don't want to start
turning people off to films and too art that could
change consciousness or change the world because they don't like
(37:41):
my political opinions.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Now, look, Jennifer Lawrence, yes, she says she's an artist,
she's a very good actor. But I think this is
relevant to everyone right because right now everyone's living in
this heightened political environment. The temperature is high for all
of us. We may not be artists, but we are
still having to figure out how to interact with other
people who might not agree with us. So Jennifer Lawrence,
very vocal during Trump one, basically has stepped back and
(38:05):
said I'm not going to talk about politics now during
second Shomp administration. So I am curious whether you feel
this vibe shift too, Jesse. Do you feel like politics
has become a real no go?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yes, And I feel as though there's a shift. I'm
certainly seeing it among celebrities that they're sort of going.
I know, it doesn't make a difference, and that's what
Jennifer Lawrence said, doesn't make a difference when I come
out and tell you how to It's not like it's
shifting the needle and suddenly everyone votes for Harris. That's
simply not what happened. And the second thing is my
(38:36):
work tells my story, so for a lot of creatives,
and I think that we put this pressure on a
lot of different types of artists, whether it's writers or
journalists or actors or musicians. It's like I have a
certain set of politics. It might not reveal how I vote,
but what my values are and what I believe that
I convey through my work. And I don't owe you
(38:59):
my ballot card. I don't need to tell you that.
And in fact, Sidney Sweeney did an interview recently as well,
which has been widely criticized, but I thought some of
her answers were actually masterful. And she was asked about this,
and here's what she said.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
The criticism of the content, which was basically that maybe
specifically in this political climate, like wait, people shouldn't joke
about genetic superiority like that was kind of like the
criticism broadly speaking. And since you were talking about this,
I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk
about that specifically.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I think that when I have an issue, though, I
want to speak about people.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Here the subtext of that they're referring, of course, to
that American eagle.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, she did.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
That. Whole interview with GQ was basically trying to go
Sydney Sweeney into distancing herself from rumors that she supports
Donald Trump. The whole interview, it wasn't about her acting.
It wasn't about even her personal life really, even though
she is dating Scooter Braun, which is weird. It was
all about trying to get at whether or not she
(40:01):
is a Trump supporter, and she was not playing that game.
And this is the thing.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
She's twenty eight years old, she grew up in a
red state or whatever, and we all know from Australia
to the US, pretty much anywhere in the world. You
know what, the biggest thing that dictates how you voted,
your post code. That's why I think that even the
story of how our tolerance for people who vote differently
to us changes over a lifetime, I think that's a
(40:25):
story of wisdom. I think that people over sixty five
know something about having met a lot of different people
from a lot of different walks of life, and they're
just more comfortable going. I'd like to align on values
with you, but that doesn't mean that we have to
vote the same. Do you agree, Claire?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Look, I just want to point out that we have
played grabs from two young white women whose experience in
the political sphere is very different to say, if they
were from a minority, and the politics that is current
affects those people quite deeply, and I feel like it's
a very privileged place to come from to say I
(41:01):
will no longer discuss it because in reality, they do
have a platform. Whether it makes a big difference for
who people vote for or not, they still have a
platform on which they can disagree with politics. It hurts people,
and I think that should be noted. But I come
from a time as a kid where you never spoke
about your politics. I very distinctly remember going to my
(41:21):
local primary school with my mum on election day one
year and I said to her, like, who did you
vote for? When she came out, and she said, we
don't share that information. We don't talk about that. And
it was very much like politics and religion were no
go zones when it came to discussing anything with your
friendship circle, especially around the dinner table. You just didn't
because it was divisive and because it could end in tears,
and so you saved your relationships by not discussing those things.
(41:46):
But I think now we more understand just how much
politics hurts people. And I think if we are in
a position to say something, to say something out loud,
that maybe might make a difference to somebody somewhere. I
think that's really important to do. But in whether you
should end a relationship because you think differently from someone,
I think that is where we're really falling down, because
(42:06):
we have an opportunityy to burst through people's echo chambers,
and instead we're fortifying echo chambers for people. So if
you say to somebody because they believe differently to you
that you no longer want to spend any time with them.
They will organically move into spheres of people who are
more like minded. And all that does is create these
little loops of people, never busting out of that bubble
(42:28):
to explore anything outside of the world that they live in.
So we are doing ourselves a disservice by not allowing discourse.
We just shut it down and we say we are
no longer friends, instead of trying to talk things through
and understand. And that's what we see happening in politics everywhere.
They have echo chambers in their own party systems, and
so they don't even consider what's happening outside of that bubble.
(42:49):
They just automatically shut it down and move forward with
whatever it is is they're on their agenda for that day.
So we are creating just more fortified echo chambers from.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That, including ourselves, right, because we're not allowing our own
echo chamber to be challenged. But I want to ask
you on the Sydney thing. So she said, I've always
believed that I'm not here to tell people what to think.
I'm just here to open their eyes to different ideas.
And Jennifer Lawrence sort of said a similar thing, which is,
I think the focus should be on decision makers, right,
(43:19):
So when a big thing happens politically, we do see
a lot of people jump to Taylor Swift say something
like and I think that that's sometimes easier to run
to a comment section of even your favorite influencer or
your favorite musician, rather than lobbying a politician.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
It's because we don't have that direct influence on the
decision makers. Even though they are elected by us, they
very rarely listen to us. So when you can reach
out to a celebrity and be seen in the comment
section and have maybe a news service pick up your
comments and have that bit like that feels like you
actually have some agency in all of this, whereas talking
(43:59):
to your decision makers, sending an email to some nameless,
faceless person in a front office that may or may
never respond to you like it feels very powerless.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I just feel like you both are talking about celebrities
like they're different from us in this day age, and
on this score, I don't think they are. What I
mean is Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney. Yes, they both
have movies to sell, but all of us have to
work with other people, have to figure out how we
get what we want from other people, have to nurture
relationships with other people, whether they be our fans, or
(44:29):
our family or our colleagues. And what I found interesting
about both these women who are sort of we think
coming from different sides of a political spectrum. We don't
know that in Sydney Sweeney's case, but we think that
they've both come to the same conclusion, which is, to
get what you want from other people in twenty twenty five,
you cannot talk about politics. And that's what I found
(44:50):
so relatable about it. Yes, they both talked about their
art and about their craft, but really that's what it
comes down to. I think, if you want to get
what you want from other people without having them shut down,
without having them cut you off. We've seen the survey results.
People will cut you off if they think that you
have different politics to them. Is that a good situation
to be in? Maybe it's just a return to what
(45:11):
you were saying, Claire. In the olden days, there was
the conventional wisdom you didn't talk about politics, and then
we had this moment for a few decades where that
was seen as perfectly fine fault of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I think that that's a good point, Amelia, that it's like,
have we returned to a family Christmas? We will not
talk about it around the dinner table, we wint I'm
sensing that.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
A little bit.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I mean, Australia invented the secret ballot. We have always
been at people who is reluctant to share our political views,
certainly compared to our friendzy Americans who when you register
to vote, that you register to vote with a particular
party and you can look up anyone's party affiliation.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
That is not the Australian way.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
But I'm wondering if the last couple of decades of
everyone talking about politics all the time was just an
anomaly and was maybe just bad manners. Maybe we do
just need to regress to what our grandmothers told us,
which is do not talk about politics.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
I would like to go back to a time where
politics wasn't such an atainment like it felt like back
in the day, politicians were beige and they did beij
things like make policy decisions and try to balance budgets
like it was beije as hell, and we didn't care
enough and a lot of Australians would prefer to be
fined then go to the polling station, not because you
(46:25):
know it's an imposition for them, but that it's literally
just don't care. And I feel like we should care
less about politics because they should be getting on with
the business of just running a freaking country and doing
right by the citizens of said country. But instead we
have this big entertainment system now where it's like they're
outdoing each other with stunts and terrible things, and like
it's become a different beast now and that's why we
(46:47):
talk about it so much, because it's lost its beige
intentions and now it's less about running a country than
making a statement.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Claire, I swear this question is relevant. Do you have
your handbag on you?
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yes, hang on, it's on the floor. Okay, don't judge me.
It's a bum bag.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Oh it's a bum bag.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
A bum bag, but it's a Mimco bum bag. Does
that make me you were cross body or you were
as a Yes? Yeah, me too. Sometimes I carried around
with its little handle.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I'm not ready to like calf de night it and
wear it around my I.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Know I've seen some people do it out in the wild.
And they look amazing, but it's not me. Claire.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Can you tell me three things that are in that bag?
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Can tell you that there is a key chain of
Sylvester hanging off the front of it, which I got it.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Yep, you've dazzled it.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
I have my foh balm, which I can't say out
loud because it's a swear word, but it's f off
herpes because I have a cold sail. Oh, it's not
very exciting. I have some toothpicks that I stole from
the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Excuse me, Claire. Can I see in your other hand
that you're holding a wallet?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Okay, this is very interesting because we did an episode,
a subscriber episode with myself, m Vernon and Holly where
we went through our bags. We did a What's in
your back?
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Just surprise?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
They were horrific things we found in there that were
very embarrassing. But between the three of us, I don't
think we had a single wallet.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I not only have one, No, I have.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yes. Do you have coins?
Speaker 1 (48:11):
What do you do with them? I sometimes use them
to pay for goods and services, which their intended purpose?
Speaker 2 (48:19):
This is wild?
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Am I nannying out? Right now?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Is this? Like?
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Am I in my old Lady era? Is this what happening?
I don't understand. There's also keysy do you want a
phone that has pay on it? No?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
But I would love that, But no you don't Apple pay,
Like do you know? Okay, this is this is a
whole It is a whole intervention.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
A bank gave me cards to.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Do that with, Like why do I need to Okay,
all right, I need an intervention? This is incredible?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
All right?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
On last Thursday Subscribe episode you can listen Claire to
how the world has moved on from wallets and you
can also find out the disgusting things we found in
our bags and they just they reveal some awful, awful
things about us. There is a link to that episode
in the show notes. Thank you out louders for joining us,
(49:06):
and thank you Claire for filling in today. Move over,
mister Beast. Do any of you guys even know him?
We don't watch mister Bates.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
I have a small child. Of course, you have taught
me who mister Beast is.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Well have they taught you who we are? Claire? Because
we are on YouTube in a big way?
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Are we YouTuber?
Speaker 2 (49:22):
We're YouTubers, so you can go and watch us on YouTube.
And I found a comment that I really liked, and
it was saying that our friend Amelia Lester over here
looks like Maggie gillenhole. Have you ever had that she does?
Speaker 3 (49:34):
I used to get it constantly, I see him and
I actually was one time in a shop in Brooklyn
and guess what happened. My dog will Ganger walked in
and Maggie and I and we used to look much
more similar than we do now.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Did you like? Spider Man me and each other like
point at each other like you know?
Speaker 5 (49:53):
Are you me?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Am I? You? You know? There's nothing more pathetic than
someone who was not a celebrity going up to a
famous person.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
And saying we look the same. So I chose not
to draw attention to it. I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Well, if you want to see how much Amelia looks
like our friend Maggie, you can see us over on YouTube.
We will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
Mamma.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
we have recorded this podcast.
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