May 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Kris Jenner can tell EXACTLY who you are based on the state of your personal space, and... let's just say that our cluttered desks and messy cars might not meet her standards.
Also, the sleepover is officially dead. But why? And what is lost by everyone staying in their own beds?
Plus our recommendations, include a timely flashback, a unputdownable mystery and (literally) bleeding for a cause.
And our Best & Worsts of the week, including you beautiful Outlouders, routine fails and some VERY talented people.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Dream Jobs & Situationships: Can You Really Ever Have It All?
- Listen: What We've All Forgotten About Tom Cruise
- Listen: Is OnlyFans Cheating?
- Listen: A Bro-Podcast Storm & All The Fashion Week Beef
- Listen: Celebrities Are Spruiking Their Boob Jobs. Everyone Cool With That?
- Listen: Divorce Gifts & Text-Snooping Partners: We Have Thoughts
- Listen: Um, Who Are You Calling A Narcissist?
- Listen: The Most Mocked Woman In The World
What to read:
- The death of the sleepover.
- And Just Like That is coming back, and a controversial character is missing.
- There's a reason Samantha Jones is still your favourite SATC character.
Recommendations:
Em Vernem wants you to read The God Of The Woods by Liz Moore.
Jessie wants you to give blood. (No vampirism here).
Holly wants you to watch season 6 of Sex And The City.
GET IN TOUCH:
Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au
Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message
Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.
Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on out louders.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Before we start the show today, we just wanted to
send our love and tell you that we're thinking of
you if you are affected by the devastating floods in
northern New South Wales. It's not just the people affected
by the floods. There are many out louders in those
areas who are part of the sees or who are
some of the thousands of volunteers that have been saving
(00:40):
lives and properties and doing incredible work. So we just
wanted to say we love you, we're thinking of you,
and hang in there.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
There is a whole conversation going on about sleepovers. The
new anxiety around sleepovers is very much about control.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
There's this dual tension right that our kids are spending
too much time on screens and not enough time with
their friends, but also this very real fear about the
risks that the world offers up.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud and to
our Friday show where we talk about nothing to do
with the news cycle at all.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Today. It's Friday, the twenty third of May, and my
name is Hollywayne.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Right, I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And Burnham filling in for mea today we are back
to regular programming.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
How we all feeling We have just finished up the
tour last night in Melbourne? What an absolute joy? Does
everyone else feel like they're going to fall in a hate?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, a very happy, saated heap Melbourne. You were wild.
Thank you for finishing us off so well. We are
still recording from all different corners. If we sound a
bit weird, but my god, this tour has been a blast, right,
It's been so much fun.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I'm horrified by how often on this tour we've said
this must be how Taylor Swift feels so much like Oh,
it's just like after the Ears tour, like you just
take the energy of an audience. Look, it's not quite it,
but we are a lot of solidarity with Taylor today.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Anyone who saw the show, and I know many out
louders listening were not able to come, so we won't
go on and on, but anyone who saw the show
knows that the comparisons to Taylor Swift fastly and appropriate.
It's very generous to us to costume changes anyway. On
today's show, the sleepover is officially dead. What is lost
(02:37):
by everyone staying home in their own beds? Thank you
very much. Also, our recommendations include a tinly Flashblack, an
unput doubtable mystery, and Bleeding for a Cause. And our
best and Worst of the week includes you lot out, Louders,
routine fails, and some very talented people.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
In case you missed it, here's what your messy, disgusting
desk says about you, or rather me, whose desk is
a health hazard? In an article published in the Age
by Kathy Bussowitz, if you's a psychiatrist and a medical
director named Marietta Vanderberg, who says clutter is actually just
a postponed decision or action. It's things we pick up
(03:19):
and put down, so we're not making a decision about
that piece of paper on your desk or that book.
Now this blew my mind because that identifies precisely what
my problem is. I'm struggling to make decisions.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
She said that.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Deliveries actually make this hard up because a lot of
people have opened or not even yet opened packages on
their desk, even she was saying, you can't find your pens,
so you just buy more pens. And then there are
things like a bill or a fine, which represents a
task that you can't get around to yet. Researchers have
found messy desks contribute to our stress hormones and even
(03:54):
cause us to get less sleep. What's weird is that
I feel like I'm tidy in most other instances, but
I have never been able to keep a clean desk. Holly,
is it a Sagittarius thing? Because I know you're exactly
the same.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
I am exactly the same.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
I think there's different kinds of clutter, because that's really true,
that clutter is an unmade decision. There are things on
my desk that are like books that I've been meaning
to read, things that I know I've got to get
back to. It's the rules of anti clutter. Do they
mean that if I can't do it now, I should
throw it away? Should there be nothing that is?
Speaker 5 (04:27):
I'm getting to that.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
What you're meant to do is factor in like five
minutes a day for desk admin. That's what the clever
people do. Now, m Are you a messy desk or
a tidy desk?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I am, and I feel like my mom and mia
colleagues would disagree. But I feel like I'm personally a
tidy desk person but messy and every other factor of
my life, because I feel like desk for me is
like a public front. So I want people to assume
something about me, and I think they'll assume that on
how I keep my desk tidy. With that being said, though,
(05:01):
I like to have a tiny bit of clutter because
I feel like it gives the illusion that I'm a
really busy person.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yes, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Things on my desk and I have, like my laptop
and my notebook. It seems like I'm organized and I'm
taking notes constantly, my little parcels. And then people walk
past my desk and go, oh, she's so busy, look
at her.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Go there's some mess that's deliberate because I don't have
a desk at work. I don't know how that happened,
but I was relegated to a point where I don't
have a desk. We're about to move to a new office.
I don't know if i'll have a desk there, you know.
But at home, my desk is almost deliberately cluttered because
it's a beautiful old desk, and I like it to
feel lived in. So I have pictures on there that
mean a lot to me. I have things I like
(05:41):
to pick up and rub or hold when I'm riding.
I have like things I like to squirt on my face.
I had like it's a deliberate clutter. It's not meant
to be a sterile environment. It's meant to.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Be a so it's like organized mess. Yeah, but then
of course there's also just the mess mess I reckon.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
It's also a status symbol because I remember watching a
documentary years ago with Caro Meldrum Hannah, who's like an
ABAC journal who I'm just in awe of, and I
remember there being a shot of her desk and it
was revolting. Yeah, I remember that rappers, coffee cups, there
were things living in it, there was a zoo like,
it was revolting, and I just thought, that is an
(06:18):
important woman. Well, it is has a lot going on.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But this leads me to another very strong opinion about clutter.
So I saw on socials recently that Christianna, Mama Ja
to the Kardashians famously busy woman.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Right, she made a point about messy cars. Listen to this.
This is what she said.
Speaker 6 (06:38):
They said, what advice do you have for these young girls?
And I said, keep your car clean? And they were
like what, And I said, have you ever noticed that
people with a really messy car like French fries, paper
cups and drinks thrown around and closed from last week?
I could not think in a car like that.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I wish that it.
Speaker 6 (06:58):
Was legal if I was interviewing somebody, to have somebody sneak.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Down and look at the inside. Go look at the
inside of the car, and how does that look? Because
it just kind of represents organizational skills and discipline and
just the way that you feel about yourself. How do
you want to present yourself when you go out into
the world.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
What do we think about that? What do we think
about the state of your car? Because by that measure,
that messy desk with the cups and everything says that
that person is chaotic. What do we think about the
messy car represents the state of your head.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I don't know if it's about representing the state of
my head, but I can't stand messy cars. Like my
car is probably the most pristine. I barely drive it,
but it's the most pristine car.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Ever.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I don't mind people having messy cars if they're the
only ones in it, But don't make me sit in
your mess, Like, don't make me get into the passenger seat.
And you have like McDonald's like on the steed and
you have I can't even put my water bottle down
because I just drink bottles. Ever, Like, I actually get
quite flustered when I'm in a message.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
No em, have I ever given you a lift anywhere?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Because the first thing I do when anyone gets into
my car is apologized for the mess.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yessee they apologizing, And then like you have to run
to the passenger seat before me and about all of
this stuff and dump.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
It into the boot.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It's chaos.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
And then you go, oh, are you sure you can fit?
And the person's feet are like on three meters worth
of bags and they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine,
And I'm thinking, well, you wanted a fucking lift. This
is a reality. Look, I don't appreciate Chris Jenner's opinion
at all. My functionality in life relies on my car
looking like that. If you want my car not to
look like that, I'm gonna be late. I'm already a
(08:35):
little bit late, orbe even later. I will barely make
it to work. Like, I think it's easy for Chris
Jenner to say that when maybe she has a driver.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
The rest of us are carting around kids, and my
car is my like transitional space between home and going
out and child and blah.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It's like it's the baby seat as well, it's the
baby because Jesse, if you were to offer me a lift,
it would be me and Luna in the back with
your baby seat like digging into my ribcake. Well, you
and Luca in the front like rows a.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Room exactly, and I'd be like, sorry about the yoga
you're sitting on.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Let's be honest. As someone who drives a lot, I
eat most of my meals in the car, So.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
My car is disgusting.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
But I find this interesting about the idea of what
private space of someone's you'd like to see to make
you make an assumption about them. I find that really
interesting because of course Chris Jenna doesn't clean her own
car and probably never has. But she probably also thinks
are the people who's coming to interview with her for
a job, like, are they prioritizing a clean car. Are
(09:40):
they getting it serviced that they're getting it clean?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Like to her, that probably means something. And I wonder
if there's anything else in life that's like that. Like
you can tell a lot about someone from their coffee order,
whether they lunch at their desk.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Or if they make their bed before they go to work.
I think that indicates something. But I reckon that cars
are a deeply personal private space. Find Chris Jenna. I
won't be offering you a lift.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Let's just say that, did you stay over at other
people's houses when you were a kid?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
And Jesse m absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Occasionally, mainly my cousins, but sometimes my friends.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Right, because there is a whole conversation going on about
sleepovers again. Now, I've been a parent for fifteen years,
and if I've learned anything in that time is that
there's a whole lot of things you're doing every day
that are going to piss off a lot of other people,
and raising the word sleepovers is one of them. This
new conversation that's come back around about whether kids should
(10:36):
be allowed to spend the night at other people's houses,
and if so, who's and when has been everywhere lately,
mostly thanks to a now deleted but completely viral tweet
that caused a storm of agreement, which simply said, my
daughter is not allowed to attend sleepovers. I hope somedays
she forgives me and knows is for the best. It's
a topic that gets everyone talking because even if you're
(10:58):
not a parent, you were a kid once and your
experiences very much affect your opinion. Now, before we get
into this conversation, we have to acknowledge, of course, and
say that there are many people who have very strong,
very good reasons for feeling unsafe about sleepovers, people who
suffered abuse in that situation or are close to those
who did. Lots of people who work in child protection
(11:20):
have very strong feelings about this, and child's safety comes first,
always without question. But there's another level to this discussion,
and that's where we're mostly going to be hanging out
when we talk about it today. The new anxiety around
sleepovers is also very much about control. It's about bedtimes,
food choices, screens, technology in general. Jesse, You've been having
(11:42):
some big discussions about this. Tell me what you're hearing
out there.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
So there was an article in the Sunday Morning Herald
about a week ago that covered this issue, and one
of the people interviewed, I believe, was a counselor, And
as you say, Holly, counselors hear some stories and I
can imagine that that would influence your worldview. But I
spoke on ABAC radio about it last week and had
the most interesting callers. One who was a police officer
(12:11):
and so was his wife, and they made a conscious
decision that they would not let the things they saw
in the day job influence how they parented because they
didn't want to project that anxiety onto their kids. And
one of the most interesting ones was a teacher who
said she'd been teaching for like more than thirty years,
and at the beginning of her career, you would have
(12:32):
school camps where maybe you went away for two nights
in year maybe seven and eight, and now they can
barely do one night. A significant portion of kids will
not go away for one night. They cannot be apart
from their parents because at that age it is the
first time they will ever spend a night away from
their parents, and that's causing an issue for schools. And
(12:55):
she was saying that from a child development point of view,
independence is critical at that age because everything from packing
to doing the routine of brushing the teeth or having
a shower or not doing those things because you're away
from your parents. They're just really important milestones that we
appeared to be missing. And there's a theory that Jonathan
(13:16):
Height and a bunch of other experts put forward, which is,
this is why we're having this anxious generation because they're
not having enough practice at resilience and independence.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
And what do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It's really hard because I feel so bad for kids
who don't get to experience a sleepover and really want to.
I remember, like I don't remember much from my primary
school days, but I do remember all the sleepovers I
went on. I started going to sleepovers really early on
when I was younger, with just my cousins like family,
(13:50):
and I remember when I started school, my parents were
a bit hesitant on taking me to sleepovers, and I
think they were mainly concerned about the cultural differences. And
I remember so specifically, like my Asian friends and my
ethnic friends like myself were never allowed to go on sleepovers,
and I think that was mainly because of the culture.
I'm biguity of not knowing what happens at different people's houses.
(14:13):
I felt so sad for those friends of mine, because
I'm sure this has changed now with kids having phones
and computers. But I remember after a sleepover, for weeks
on end, that's all we would talk about at school
was the sleepover. And there was one time in particular,
I think I was around nine years old where I
had a fever and I couldn't go to my friend's
birthday party and it was a sleepover and I sobbed
(14:34):
for like a week straight because that's all my friends
could talk about, and it would be the most mundane
little things, like remember when Jessica had that pineapple lolly,
even though she said she hated pineapple lollies, Like it
was those little things, but it just brought such a big,
different experience into our lives. And I just remember having
so much fun, and I felt so sad for my
(14:55):
friends who weren't allowed to go.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
It's interesting because your point about what you just said.
I think that one of the really good things about
sleepovers is observing other families up close. Right if you
only ever see your family and your you know, cultural setting,
whatever that is, because lots of families have their own cultures,
you know what I mean as well, Like if you
only ever see your family up close, you assume that
(15:20):
all of the world is like that. And I think
one of the things that's really good is watching other
families operate. And I'm always really conscious of that When
my kids have sleepovers at our house and there are
other kids there, I sort of think, oh wow, like
they're kind of studying us like a documentary. I think
it's really interesting, right, because I understand the anxiety obviously
(15:41):
the serious worst case scenarios that we've discussed, but it
is worth pointing out in that that sleepovers also involve
grandma's house, anti's house, cousin's house. Those are also sleepovers,
and the statistics will show that very often abuse occurs
within families that are closed or like adults who are
very close and known to you. So total control would
(16:02):
mean no sleepovers ever, including at family's houses. Right, But
then beyond that, you've got to start making some kind
of risk assessment if you're going to be prepared to
do it. And one of the things I feel a
bit bad about this kind of some of the dialogue
I've seen around this new anxiety around sleepovers and Again,
it's around more what time will they go to bed,
(16:23):
and maybe they're gonna eat something that's bad for them,
Maybe they're not gonna go to bed till late, maybe
they'll watch a scary movie. Is I think that this
sort of value judgment around it and this idea, I've
seen quite a lot of people online saying I've decided
I'm not they've only got babies in there, Like I've
decided I'm not gonna let my kids have sleepovers.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
Is if you don't have.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Grandma down the road and an anti nextoor and all
that things, that means you are now granting yourselves no
nights off from parenting ever. Right, We're just constantly piling
more and more pressure on tiny family units and then
wonder why they crack.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
It's like what about the village?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
You know, Like the idea that if you don't have
grandma who lives down the road and you're going to
say no sleepovers, that means you and your partner, if
you've got one and never gonna go and have a
night away, You're never going to go out late.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Like there's a whole lot of.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Things you're never gonna do because you're afraid and I
worry about that.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, And there's this dual tension, right that our kids
are spending too much time on screens and not enough
time with their friends, but also this very real fear
about the risks that the world offers up. So if
you can't leave a kid with a family member or
(17:32):
a friend, then they're always at home. But something's got
to give, so likely there are going to be moments
when they're on their screen, which we know isn't perfect either.
This is massive on TikTok, on kind of parent TikTok, right,
And I was listening to some of the sentences that
some are experts like pediatricians, and others are parents giving
(17:53):
some advice, and they said one was sexual assault is
committed by people we know love and trust, and another
was a father. And there's got so many likes and
so much engagement when it comes to my kids, I
don't trust anybody, and I don't think we can live
in that world. On the one hand, I totally understand
it if you have had that experience, I can't imagine
(18:15):
what it would be like raising a child when you
have had a traumatic experience as a child yourself. But
if you haven't, I think you can mitigate risk, you
can make sensible decisions from knowing who the family is,
knowing who's going to be around. Interestingly, the discussion in
the US, and this is relevant, is there guns in
the house. Luckily that isn't one that's relevant to Australia.
(18:39):
But I do reckon that at some point you've got
to trust the adults around you and if you are
sitting there with this like enormous anxiety, then your child
is going to absorb that and that can't be good either, right.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, But I also have a question on if something
does go a bit wrong, like how do you manage
the parenting after that? Like another example I had at
a sleepover was I was at a friend's birthday. I
think we were probably eleven years old, and two of
the girls got into the mum's alcohol cabinet.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
Yeah, this is the most common scenario in the world, right, Okay,
this is good to know because it's traumatized for life.
It's the most common scenario.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
And they were just like swigging, I want to say,
like the worst alcohol. And then they started violently throwing up.
And then the mom came in and she was like,
oh my god, all the parents were called, we all
got picked up, but then one of them wasn't allowed
to go to any sleepovers for the rest of the year,
and the other one just showed up at the next party.
And as kids who weren't involved, we were very very confused,
(19:46):
and even my parents were a bit like, well, you
were there, but did you do it? Like it was
really hard to navigate. They were just very.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Confused, just like every bit of parenting. One of the
things that we're all really afraid of now is everybody
else's judgments, right, so that happens still happens all the time.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
And that scenario that you talked about.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
The first time I ever got drunk was a sleepover,
or the first time I ever saw an adult magazine
was probably a sleepover. Like, it is true that these
things happen.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Your sleepovers are much cooler.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Them, but nothing disastrous occurred, you know what I mean.
It was just that kind of stuff. And the thing
is is, obviously I have a teenager and we've been
through a lot of sleepover things.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
It's different for me.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I'll talk more about my daughter's sleepovers because my son
that's a little bit different, and kids who have different needs.
You know, you've got to have different rules. But my
daughter's very social. She loves her friends, and sleepovers is
the thing they all want to do. And I'm not
in the business of telling other people what to do,
but I allow them, and I allow them at my house.
But I'd have my own rules, which I think every
(20:44):
family does. It's like my house, my rules. So in
our house, they're not allowed their phones after a certain time,
so I'll go in and take everybody's phones and stuff.
Sometimes kids get upset about that.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
It's tough.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
It's my house, my rules, right, same way that if
we're having pizza for dinner, we're having pizza for dinner. Obviously,
dietaries not exclusives.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh my god, I could never do the like, I
don't know, aren't you just like?
Speaker 5 (21:05):
What if they hate me? I don't care. And I'm
not very particularly strict.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
But the thing that I always do because when I
was my daughter's age, I was a naughty teenager and
I lied about where I was staying the night nearly always.
So my number one thing is I always check. I
have to have the parent's phone number, and I obviously
when she was little, I had to know them and
all that but she's older. Now I have to have
the parent's phone number. I always check with the parent.
So and so it says they're staying at your house,
(21:30):
is that true?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Will you be home?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Like? That's base level stuff, And most I know this
is big on TikTok, and I feel like it's a
particular thing when your kids are little and you're looking
ahead and you're going I will never But most parents
I know sit somewhere in a sensible center on this,
which is they have their own boundaries. Like, so, Matilda
had someone stay over last week, I wasn't there, so
obviously I made sure that her parents knew that I
(21:54):
wasn't there and that Brent was there, and were they
okay with that? Like just communication, you know what I mean?
And I think that most people are like that.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
They're sensible, and things are going to happen at sleepovers
that aren ideal. Like on the one hand, you've got
I'm sure we all remember, you know, the two way
conversations and the realizing how shit you feel the next
day when you didn't get any sleep and all of that.
But on the other hand, I remember instances of bullying,
of complex friendship dynamics. It means being said, all of
(22:25):
those things happen too, but they are something that you
deal with as a teenager. You learn things from it,
and again it reinforces your independence. But for cultural reasons,
for family reasons, for religious reasons, for a million reasons,
some families won't do sleepovers. And it's not the only
(22:45):
way that you can encourage independence, right, Like.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
No, And actually what happens now is something called a
sleep under. So I've got friends who do their kids
have sleepovers and that's fine. And Matilda's got friends whose
parents will other kids sleepover. So sleep under is where
they come and they do all the fun things that
the other kids are doing, so you know, like if
you're getting some pizza or doing whatever, hanging out, but
then they come and pick them up at about ten
o'clock or like nine o'clock or whatever is the thing.
(23:10):
And that's called a sleep under, and that is really
popular because if for whatever reason you're not comfortable with sleepovers,
your kids still get some of the fun, but just
not the midnight stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
What I struggle with, I guess, is the TikTok parenting
experts wagging their finger at other parents, sort of suggesting
that you're being irresponsible or naive or idealistic if you
allow your child to do anything that is slightly risky.
Because everyone out there is a monster. I don't want
to live in a world where we are treating everyone
(23:41):
as a monster. If this conversation has brought up anything
for you, then we have some resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Out loudest in a moment, we have some recommendations for
your weekend. Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It is Friday, so we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly, you go best.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know how my recommendations. I have a reputation with
my co hosts for being a bit basic. Yes, I
am bringing you the most basic of all recommendations because
I think we all know or many of us know that.
And just like that's coming back, which is the polarizing
new version of Sex and the City, which is about
to come back with season three. When does it drop
The end of May May thirty. So I'm like an
(24:34):
athlete preparing for this event.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, she's done training.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And what I've been doing, and because we've been traveling
a lot, which we'll talk about in a minute. But
one of the things that I do for like a
comfort wind down, is I have been watching the entire
season six, which is the last season of Sex and
the City, the TV show, Right.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
I loved that last season.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Oh my god, it is so good.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And I know there are problematic things about it, don't
at me. There definitely are. There's a bit where Charlotte
puts a mascot and pretends to be blind. There's quite
a lot of stuff that just is not okay. But
as a season of television, in these thirty minute storytelling chunks,
so much happens in that season. You know what I'm
talking about if you're familiar. Carrie meets Berger, gets dumped
(25:22):
by Berger, Miranda goes out with the guy who lives downstairs,
gets back together with Steve, they get married, Samantha gets cancered,
Carrie meets the hot Russian, they have their whole thing,
moves to Paris, Charlotte's getting pregnant child black Like, so
much happens in this one season, and it is funny
and light and so well told, and I am loving it.
(25:43):
And I'm just recommending that if you just want to
turn your brain off and just enjoy some excellent classic
like TV, especially if you are limbering up for and
just like that season six it is untouchable. It is Oh,
it's on Max.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
By the way, everybody, how about you, M what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So I recently got a notification on my book app
because I had it said that I wanted to read
fifty books this year, and then I got a note
for saying, if you want to stick to your goal,
you need to read six books a month.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So instead of reading goal on your reading app like Kindling, Yeah,
I have fable.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
It's an app that you can like track all your
books and stuff on it. A lot of people use
it similar to Goodreads.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Have you already read my book on there?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I definitely have read your book, Kelly, and I've given
you five stars.
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Thank you very much, my friend. Please proceed, Please proceed.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So I was recommended this book by a friend. It's
called The God of the Woods by Liz Moore, and
it's kind of a thriller mystery drama. And the reason
I picked it up was because I've kind of been
in a hole of romanticy novels like I've been reading
my fairy smut. I've been reading about sexy dragons and
I was like, I need to get out of this.
I can't just this can't.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Be my thing.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But you love that stuff, right, I love that stuff,
And I think it's when I first got into Romanticy.
It was just something that's so different from everyday life.
I feel like when I read books now, I'm always
like in the back of my head looking for a pitch,
like an article or something to talk about in a podcast,
and with Romanticy, you actually can't do that because it's
about dragons essentially.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
I love that. So many people do. People just talk
to me all the time about Romanticy. It's so good.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So this book is actually a thriller mystery drama. It's
still a novel, but it's about this girl named Barbara,
and it's set in nineteen seventy five at an exclusive,
high end summer camp for kids. And I picked it
up holes straight after your book, so I now know
a lot about camping two books. So it's set at
this camp and Barbara goes missing, and Barbara in particular
(27:45):
is the daughter of the extremely wealthy family that owns
the camp and also employs pretty much the entire region
they live in, so they're very very high up family,
and her disappearance came fourteen years after her brother disappeared
in a very similar way. Oh this is mye gripping.
(28:06):
It's so well written. Oh it's so well doneminds me
a lot of your book Hold with the descriptions of
the camp and the maps and everything, so you can
kind of like see it in your head. And it's
just one of those thrillers that I physically couldn't put down.
It's very similar to like Gillian Flynn's writing. I absolutely
loved it.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Remind me what it's called.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
It is called The God of the Woods by Liz Moore.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
All right, that's my next raad. My recommendation is purely
here to make both of you feel like bad people.
And that is my reco is giving blood. I gave
blood last Friday. I've already told you both. I've already
told everyone I've come across. I saw, you know, Amelia's
husband is a doctor, and i'd run into him recently
and I told him within thirty seconds that I'd give
(28:48):
him blood because doctors really like it when you give blood.
So anyway, I should tell all of you too. I
also tell everyone that I have magic blood, which is
own egg, which means that I am obligated to give
blood because I am a It's like you're a vampire's dream. Yes,
when Spider Man says, with great something comes great responsibility,
(29:09):
that's me with blood. So did you know that giving
blood like needle goes in seven minutes? Seven minutes? I
had to have a bit of a consult before because
I traveled recently, and so that you should look that
up before you do it. It's like I'd been to Fiji
and it's got to be four weeks before you can
do it. So there's just some funny things and a
(29:30):
few people get caught out once they're there. So I
would definitely check. But I think a lot of people
think with blood it's a car accident or these traumatic accidents,
and that's true. Your blood is especially own negative, is
often used for that. But if you know anyone who
is going through cancer treatment, the chances are they will
need it at some point because it helps them, you know,
(29:50):
do the chemo or the radiation or whatever. I have
a friend's mum who's needed a few transfusions lately, and
so it is such a privilege to be in the
position where you're well enough to do it. And I
have felt like such a good person for the last week.
And every time you tell someone they really do have
to give you a pat on the back. It's just like,
(30:11):
sometimes I don't feel like a good person, and that
has just been honestly, it has given me a lot
of self esteem.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
It's on my list of things I've got to get
around to doing when things calm down and inverted commas. And
also plasma if you can do that too, that is incredibly.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yes, plasma, and you can give plasma more often as well.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Jesse, I don't know if it was you, but someone said,
if you're single, going to a blood bank.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It was me.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
It was me.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
I wrote a story, so I gave blood years ago,
and I hadn't done it in a few years because
I'd had some issues with iron deficiency. But we went
as a workplace because someone that we love who we
worked with was diagnosed with cancer and we all went
and gave blood. And I was like, I know, this
isn't the point, but everyone here is really hot. And
not only were they hot, but they had great values
(30:57):
because they were like, I care about saving lives, and
I looked around and went, this is a single girl's dream.
And I remember speaking to Life Blood about it. It's often,
you know, it's like a professional who's going on their
lunch break and they're just like, honestly, em, I reckon go,
(31:17):
don't give too much. You've still got to be standing.
You need enough blood for yourself. But I reckon go
and just look around and I think you might meet
the love of your life at the blood bank.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Whoa a win is a win?
Speaker 4 (31:28):
After the break, the highs and lows of being on
the road, a very inappropriate question, and a special birthday,
it is time for Best and Worst.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
One unlimited out loud access.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma
Mia subscribers.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Follow the link of the show notes.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
To get us in your ears five days a week.
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Holly, do you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I will.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
I'm breaking the rules a little bit to them.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I'm going to mush them up together because my best
and worst are the same thing. We have talked about
the tour a little bit. We're going to talk about
it a little bit more in a minute too, some
very special people on the road. But my best and
worst this last week and the last few weeks has
been tour travel because I absolutely love traveling. I love flying,
I love hotels, I love doing the shows. I love
(32:25):
pushing myself. I love hanging out with you guys and
all the crew. I love it, like I genuinely love it.
But I have been away from my family so much.
And this is exacerbated by the fact that obviously, as
a lot of out loud as know, a couple of
well four years ago now, I moved down the coast
in New South Wales, so I don't live near Sydney.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
I don't live near the airport.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
So that complicates things in that it means that often
when we come back to town, if we're going again soon,
like I end up staying in hotels more and away.
So there's been long stretches where I haven't seen the family.
And we always knew, Like Brent and I at the
beginning of this year, when we were looking at the year,
we were like, well, May is just crazy because I've
got a book coming out, which is an amazing, you
(33:07):
know thing.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
You work so hard on.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
And finally comes and then we've got the tour, which
is the highlight of my mom and me are out
loud year.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
I love it. But they were all colliding. So we're
just new.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
So we talked to the kids and we're just like,
talk to the dog, talk to everybody, talk to the plants.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Just like, I'm going to be traveling a lot. I'm
not going to be around.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It's not going to be great, but we'll get through it,
and then we're all going to go on holiday together
in the school holidays. But it's so weird, and I
know there are so many people who have to travel
for work or lots of different reasons. Maybe they're fly
and fly out, maybe they're you know, doing lots of
different things. That it's like a great privilege really because
you get to still with your parent and you've got
a busy family life, because you get to live a
(33:46):
little bit of just you, just you being selfish, like
sitting in a hotel room watching sex in the city, right,
you know, winding down from a show. But then on
the other hand, I just by the end of last week,
I was just pining for them, like just absolutely pining
for them, and you know, that you're not there for
things you should be there for, and you know you're
just not there for all the incidental little stuff, and
(34:08):
you know that the cabbage is are and it's just
the caterpillars are having their way with your broccoli.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
How do you feel at the end of it, Holly,
do you really really miss them? Do you just want
to go in?
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I really really miss them?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
And then the thing that's funny about it, and again
lots of people who travel for work will know this
is then you get home and you're home for like
a day, and it's like you are never gone, and
the washing is up to the ceiling and they're all
just like, oh, they're so happy to see you when
you first get home. But then they're just everyone just
slots back into normal life and you're like, oh yeah,
and then you're like, oh, hotel room would be kind
of nice. No, So it's been like, I know, I
(34:44):
sound like a very privileged winter because these are the
best things about my job, right, Like, this is such
good stuff, you know, talking to people about my book.
He would never talk to people about the tour, meeting
out loud as on the tour, traveling with all these
smart women but fuck, I miss my family a lot
and it's a weird.
Speaker 5 (34:59):
High low situation.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, I know what you mean. Em what was your worst?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So my worst. This is gonna sound so lame compared
to Holly's work, but it's kind of similar with the
traveling around, Like I don't think I'm cut out for
the rock star life. Like it's just a lot of hotels,
a lot of flights, which I absolutely love and it's
so exciting and it's so new to me. But I
am the most undisciplined person in history, to the point
(35:26):
where I genuinely think I need to be studied because
I don't understand it. If I'm not held accountable for
doing things, I just won't do them. And I've been
really taking the mickey out of this whole, like little
stint of ours being away and everything's just out of
control of my life, Like I haven't planned when to
do my washing. My apartment's been in a constant mess.
(35:48):
I've been in the office when I'm not allowed to
be in the office because it's still under construction. I've
just been breaking so many rules. I've been sleeping in,
I've been eating crazy, i haven't been taking my vitamins,
and I'm starting to now feel the ramifications for all
of that, Like I am starting to become a frazzle person.
I'm not a frazzle person, generally hard relate.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
And I've not eaten. I know, we don't do good food,
bad food. God, I've eaten like crap and I'm feeling it.
It's like, because you're so out of whack, you just
sort of eat what you can get and you get
to the end of it and go, no, I probably
need a vegetable.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Literally, i haven't even vegetable. I've been like surviving on
meta musial my whole boughs because it's just been insane,
to the point where my mom came over I think
it was after the Brisbane show, and she just came
over and cleaned my apartment and kissed me food and
was like, you need to figure this out because I
can't do this.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
For the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But I'm like, that's true.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I'm sure that's a Telesis's mum does too, surely.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
But my best was also related to show because I
celebrated my birthday for the Sydney show and it was
hands down the best birthday I've ever had. It was
just so much fun. I get a lot of anxiety
from my birthday. On my twenty third birthday, I had
my first anxiety attack and it was at like a
big party I had for myself, and since I was
(37:08):
twenty three, I haven't had a party for my birthday
since then. Like I've had my go to was like
a dinner with three of my closest friends, a dinner
with my parents, and a breakfast with my grandparents, and
I've just done that every year. And then the Sydney Show.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
It was just so much fun.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And I think it's because I had just sure a
great habit to build, but I had so much anxiety
for the Sydney Show that the anxiety for my birthday
just never came.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
And it was just fun and everyone was stay out
loudest spontaneously sang you I need to.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Find out who started that, because it wasn't anyone I know.
I've asked everyone and they were like, oh, sorry, it
wasn't ass So it was. It wasn't out louder and
it was so beautiful and the crew and you guys
were just so nice and you made me feel so special.
And it was the first birthday where it was all
happiness and zero anxiety, and I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
It was so much fun.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
I was so special to spend your birthday with you
and the big twenty nine. No, my worst is it's
a question I got asked at the park. And I
want to be clear because I actually don't think there's
anything inappropriate about this question. And I've had great conversations
with women about it, right, And that is the second
(38:21):
baby question. I am constantly having conversations about it. You know,
people can be really touchy, and I get it about
when you're having a baby, did it? Like all of
that stuff can be a button for people. But I've
had lots of women say to me, are you thinking
about a second? And We've had great conversations and I'm
really honest with them and we go back and forth.
(38:43):
And I'm always asking people about the age gap and
when did you decide to have a second and blah
blah blah. But I was at the park and this
woman came over to me and asked how old Luna
was and asked if I was thinking about having a second,
which is fine, but it was the follow up questions
that I found to be inappropriate, like bordering on almost
a bit like aggressive, like annoid that I hadn't had
(39:04):
a second. So she was like, she came over, asked
you think about having a second, and then like why
haven't you had one yet? What are you waiting for?
And when were you thinking? And if she's nearly two,
then it might be time. And she was like nearly
aggressive about it, And I thought, do you want me
to turn to you, stranger who I have never met,
(39:25):
and talked to you about my ovulation schedule and how
that is intersecting with my husband's availability, Like do you
help pride it? These conversations are you don't know if
I've been struggling for twelve months. You don't know if
I'm currently pregnant, you don't know if I have had
pregnancy loss. Like it's just a very sore topic. And
(39:50):
on my way back from the park, I was like,
the thing is that everyone who has one baby has
thought about a second, either they've decided that they don't
want to, or they do want to or whatever. It's like,
you're not bringing.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
Them the idea.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
You're not planting an idea that hasn't crossed my mind.
I'm obviously thinking about that. I am very aware of
age all that kind of stuff. I just thought, if
someone is a stranger, like love conversations with strangers, but
just don't compound the fertility anxiety and don't keep going.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's so funny, not funny, hahd. But Jesse, I think
because you know, there's so much out there now, we
share so much on STUCI. I don't mean usk, yes,
but I sort of think everyone's got the memo about
like not asking people those kind of questions, just like
you don't ask people if they're pregnant, or you don't
ask people if they want to have kids, or if
they're about to get married.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Like, in my mind, we've all got that memo and
we don't push it. But clearly that's a false reality.
Clearly there's plenty of pushing still going on.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
And I have a theory that it is worse when
you've had one. I reckon that if you don't have kids.
I've got heaps and mates without kids, and I think
people go, you know what, none of my business. Maybe
they don't want them, maybe they do whatever. When you've
had one, it's like you've opened the door for people
to go, Are you having more like they think that
conversation is appropriate when I know a lot of people
who have struggled with a second or for various reasons,
(41:18):
don't want one. It's just like, yeah, people think that
it's an appropriate kind of thing, and if you're a mate,
so happy to have the conversation, but strangers just different.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Oh my god, that's so stressful to me.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
My best is we've been touring for six or seven years.
We've been doing it for a while, and I reckon
we've done more than fifty live shows. Yeah, and this
has been my absolute favorite for a few reasons. We've
had a few special guests on the road with us,
and speaking of sleepovers, it's been like a big sleepover
(41:53):
with just the best company because you spend so much time.
You have dinner together, you're backstage together, like I've just
loved that incidental time and the crew, like you know,
we get on stage and get an applause and do
what I maintain is the easy bit, the logistics, the
work that has gone on behind the scenes. And I
(42:14):
couldn't possibly name everyone but Paula and Ruth and em
Lucy Lucy's Oh, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
So many co Co and Tessa who are traveling with
us and doing all the socials that you're seeing. This
one here Emily Vernon, who's stepping out on stage for
the first time in front of all those people.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Exactly, And now we can actually name who the other
special guest was, because now everyone knows. Of course, Amelia Lester.
Amelia was on the road with us, and like, spending
time with you two has just been so much fun.
So we're just so lucky.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It's such a good team. Like it's so much fun.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Such a good team. So I've just enjoyed it so much.
It's been not only my best for the week, but
I reckon it'll be the highlight of my ear for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Massive appreciation to all those amazing women. And you know
what's funny we talked about this, it's not entirely true
because there are some dudes behind the scenes who came
upon the Sydney Show.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
There's Josh.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
We were in Brisbane and all the crew came up
on the stage to take a bow and I knew
someone who was there and she said, oh my god,
seeing all that all female crew, you know, it was
so empowering.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
It was so powerful and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
I told Jesse that after dinner, and we looked at
each other and went that had never even heard like
We're just so used to being surrounded by amazing kicks
women that like, it doesn't seem remarkable, but you know what,
I bet it is remarkable.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Honestly, Wow, wow, wow wow, so much fun, so cool.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
That is all we have time for today. We will
stop talking about the tour now. It probably really annoys
everybody who didn't get back to original programming. But a
massive thank you to all of you out louders who
listen to us today, any day every week. We'll be
back in your ears on Monday. Jesse and them read
us out.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Big thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth
Devine executive producer Emmeline Gazillis, both of whom I have
bought sympathy cards for after how much time they've i
to spend with us over the last month.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Our audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer is
Josh Green, our one man in our big team, Hey,
and our junior content producers Coco and Tessa.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Bye bye, out Louders. We know you're not ready to
say goodbye. We thought we would leave you with a
little bit of a conversation we had on a subscriber
episode yesterday about an out louder who was having a
pretty good time with a situationship that needed to end
it and she hadn't ended a relationship in more than
twenty years. Look did she come to the right place
(44:45):
for advice?
Speaker 5 (44:46):
You will see a link to.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
That episode will be in the show notes. Shout out
to any Mum and mea subscribers listening. If you love
the show and you want to support us, subscribing to
Mom and Mia is the very best way to do so.
There's a link in the episode description
You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on out louders.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Before we start the show today, we just wanted to
send our love and tell you that we're thinking of
you if you are affected by the devastating floods in
northern New South Wales. It's not just the people affected
by the floods. There are many out louders in those
areas who are part of the sees or who are
some of the thousands of volunteers that have been saving
(00:40):
lives and properties and doing incredible work. So we just
wanted to say we love you, we're thinking of you,
and hang in there.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
There is a whole conversation going on about sleepovers. The
new anxiety around sleepovers is very much about control.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
There's this dual tension right that our kids are spending
too much time on screens and not enough time with
their friends, but also this very real fear about the
risks that the world offers up.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud and to
our Friday show where we talk about nothing to do
with the news cycle at all.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
Today. It's Friday, the twenty third of May, and my
name is Hollywayne.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Right, I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And Burnham filling in for mea today we are back
to regular programming.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
How we all feeling We have just finished up the
tour last night in Melbourne? What an absolute joy? Does
everyone else feel like they're going to fall in a hate?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, a very happy, saated heap Melbourne. You were wild.
Thank you for finishing us off so well. We are
still recording from all different corners. If we sound a
bit weird, but my god, this tour has been a blast, right,
It's been so much fun.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
I'm horrified by how often on this tour we've said
this must be how Taylor Swift feels so much like Oh,
it's just like after the Ears tour, like you just
take the energy of an audience. Look, it's not quite it,
but we are a lot of solidarity with Taylor today.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Anyone who saw the show, and I know many out
louders listening were not able to come, so we won't
go on and on, but anyone who saw the show
knows that the comparisons to Taylor Swift fastly and appropriate.
It's very generous to us to costume changes anyway. On
today's show, the sleepover is officially dead. What is lost
(02:37):
by everyone staying home in their own beds? Thank you
very much. Also, our recommendations include a tinly Flashblack, an
unput doubtable mystery, and Bleeding for a Cause. And our
best and Worst of the week includes you lot out, Louders,
routine fails, and some very talented people.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
In case you missed it, here's what your messy, disgusting
desk says about you, or rather me, whose desk is
a health hazard? In an article published in the Age
by Kathy Bussowitz, if you's a psychiatrist and a medical
director named Marietta Vanderberg, who says clutter is actually just
a postponed decision or action. It's things we pick up
(03:19):
and put down, so we're not making a decision about
that piece of paper on your desk or that book.
Now this blew my mind because that identifies precisely what
my problem is. I'm struggling to make decisions.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
She said that.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Deliveries actually make this hard up because a lot of
people have opened or not even yet opened packages on
their desk, even she was saying, you can't find your pens,
so you just buy more pens. And then there are
things like a bill or a fine, which represents a
task that you can't get around to yet. Researchers have
found messy desks contribute to our stress hormones and even
(03:54):
cause us to get less sleep. What's weird is that
I feel like I'm tidy in most other instances, but
I have never been able to keep a clean desk. Holly,
is it a Sagittarius thing? Because I know you're exactly
the same.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
I am exactly the same.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
I think there's different kinds of clutter, because that's really true,
that clutter is an unmade decision. There are things on
my desk that are like books that I've been meaning
to read, things that I know I've got to get
back to. It's the rules of anti clutter. Do they
mean that if I can't do it now, I should
throw it away? Should there be nothing that is?
Speaker 5 (04:27):
I'm getting to that.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
What you're meant to do is factor in like five
minutes a day for desk admin. That's what the clever
people do. Now, m Are you a messy desk or
a tidy desk?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I am, and I feel like my mom and mia
colleagues would disagree. But I feel like I'm personally a
tidy desk person but messy and every other factor of
my life, because I feel like desk for me is
like a public front. So I want people to assume
something about me, and I think they'll assume that on
how I keep my desk tidy. With that being said, though,
(05:01):
I like to have a tiny bit of clutter because
I feel like it gives the illusion that I'm a
really busy person.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yes, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Things on my desk and I have, like my laptop
and my notebook. It seems like I'm organized and I'm
taking notes constantly, my little parcels. And then people walk
past my desk and go, oh, she's so busy, look
at her.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Go there's some mess that's deliberate because I don't have
a desk at work. I don't know how that happened,
but I was relegated to a point where I don't
have a desk. We're about to move to a new office.
I don't know if i'll have a desk there, you know.
But at home, my desk is almost deliberately cluttered because
it's a beautiful old desk, and I like it to
feel lived in. So I have pictures on there that
mean a lot to me. I have things I like
(05:41):
to pick up and rub or hold when I'm riding.
I have like things I like to squirt on my face.
I had like it's a deliberate clutter. It's not meant
to be a sterile environment. It's meant to.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Be a so it's like organized mess. Yeah, but then
of course there's also just the mess mess I reckon.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
It's also a status symbol because I remember watching a
documentary years ago with Caro Meldrum Hannah, who's like an
ABAC journal who I'm just in awe of, and I
remember there being a shot of her desk and it
was revolting. Yeah, I remember that rappers, coffee cups, there
were things living in it, there was a zoo like,
it was revolting, and I just thought, that is an
(06:18):
important woman. Well, it is has a lot going on.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But this leads me to another very strong opinion about clutter.
So I saw on socials recently that Christianna, Mama Ja
to the Kardashians famously busy woman.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Right, she made a point about messy cars. Listen to this.
This is what she said.
Speaker 6 (06:38):
They said, what advice do you have for these young girls?
And I said, keep your car clean? And they were
like what, And I said, have you ever noticed that
people with a really messy car like French fries, paper
cups and drinks thrown around and closed from last week?
I could not think in a car like that.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
I wish that it.
Speaker 6 (06:58):
Was legal if I was interviewing somebody, to have somebody sneak.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Down and look at the inside. Go look at the
inside of the car, and how does that look? Because
it just kind of represents organizational skills and discipline and
just the way that you feel about yourself. How do
you want to present yourself when you go out into
the world.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
What do we think about that? What do we think
about the state of your car? Because by that measure,
that messy desk with the cups and everything says that
that person is chaotic. What do we think about the
messy car represents the state of your head.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I don't know if it's about representing the state of
my head, but I can't stand messy cars. Like my
car is probably the most pristine. I barely drive it,
but it's the most pristine car.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Ever.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I don't mind people having messy cars if they're the
only ones in it, But don't make me sit in
your mess, Like, don't make me get into the passenger seat.
And you have like McDonald's like on the steed and
you have I can't even put my water bottle down
because I just drink bottles. Ever, Like, I actually get
quite flustered when I'm in a message.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
No em, have I ever given you a lift anywhere?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Because the first thing I do when anyone gets into
my car is apologized for the mess.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yessee they apologizing, And then like you have to run
to the passenger seat before me and about all of
this stuff and dump.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
It into the boot.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It's chaos.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
And then you go, oh, are you sure you can fit?
And the person's feet are like on three meters worth
of bags and they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine,
And I'm thinking, well, you wanted a fucking lift. This
is a reality. Look, I don't appreciate Chris Jenner's opinion
at all. My functionality in life relies on my car
looking like that. If you want my car not to
look like that, I'm gonna be late. I'm already a
(08:35):
little bit late, orbe even later. I will barely make
it to work. Like, I think it's easy for Chris
Jenner to say that when maybe she has a driver.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
The rest of us are carting around kids, and my
car is my like transitional space between home and going
out and child and blah.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It's like it's the baby seat as well, it's the
baby because Jesse, if you were to offer me a lift,
it would be me and Luna in the back with
your baby seat like digging into my ribcake. Well, you
and Luca in the front like rows a.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Room exactly, and I'd be like, sorry about the yoga
you're sitting on.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Let's be honest. As someone who drives a lot, I
eat most of my meals in the car, So.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
My car is disgusting.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
But I find this interesting about the idea of what
private space of someone's you'd like to see to make
you make an assumption about them. I find that really
interesting because of course Chris Jenna doesn't clean her own
car and probably never has. But she probably also thinks
are the people who's coming to interview with her for
a job, like, are they prioritizing a clean car. Are
(09:40):
they getting it serviced that they're getting it clean?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Like to her, that probably means something. And I wonder
if there's anything else in life that's like that. Like
you can tell a lot about someone from their coffee order,
whether they lunch at their desk.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Or if they make their bed before they go to work.
I think that indicates something. But I reckon that cars
are a deeply personal private space. Find Chris Jenna. I
won't be offering you a lift.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Let's just say that, did you stay over at other
people's houses when you were a kid?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
And Jesse m absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Occasionally, mainly my cousins, but sometimes my friends.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Right, because there is a whole conversation going on about
sleepovers again. Now, I've been a parent for fifteen years,
and if I've learned anything in that time is that
there's a whole lot of things you're doing every day
that are going to piss off a lot of other people,
and raising the word sleepovers is one of them. This
new conversation that's come back around about whether kids should
(10:36):
be allowed to spend the night at other people's houses,
and if so, who's and when has been everywhere lately,
mostly thanks to a now deleted but completely viral tweet
that caused a storm of agreement, which simply said, my
daughter is not allowed to attend sleepovers. I hope somedays
she forgives me and knows is for the best. It's
a topic that gets everyone talking because even if you're
(10:58):
not a parent, you were a kid once and your
experiences very much affect your opinion. Now, before we get
into this conversation, we have to acknowledge, of course, and
say that there are many people who have very strong,
very good reasons for feeling unsafe about sleepovers, people who
suffered abuse in that situation or are close to those
who did. Lots of people who work in child protection
(11:20):
have very strong feelings about this, and child's safety comes first,
always without question. But there's another level to this discussion,
and that's where we're mostly going to be hanging out
when we talk about it today. The new anxiety around
sleepovers is also very much about control. It's about bedtimes,
food choices, screens, technology in general. Jesse, You've been having
(11:42):
some big discussions about this. Tell me what you're hearing
out there.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
So there was an article in the Sunday Morning Herald
about a week ago that covered this issue, and one
of the people interviewed, I believe, was a counselor, And
as you say, Holly, counselors hear some stories and I
can imagine that that would influence your worldview. But I
spoke on ABAC radio about it last week and had
the most interesting callers. One who was a police officer
(12:11):
and so was his wife, and they made a conscious
decision that they would not let the things they saw
in the day job influence how they parented because they
didn't want to project that anxiety onto their kids. And
one of the most interesting ones was a teacher who
said she'd been teaching for like more than thirty years,
and at the beginning of her career, you would have
(12:32):
school camps where maybe you went away for two nights
in year maybe seven and eight, and now they can
barely do one night. A significant portion of kids will
not go away for one night. They cannot be apart
from their parents because at that age it is the
first time they will ever spend a night away from
their parents, and that's causing an issue for schools. And
(12:55):
she was saying that from a child development point of view,
independence is critical at that age because everything from packing
to doing the routine of brushing the teeth or having
a shower or not doing those things because you're away
from your parents. They're just really important milestones that we
appeared to be missing. And there's a theory that Jonathan
(13:16):
Height and a bunch of other experts put forward, which is,
this is why we're having this anxious generation because they're
not having enough practice at resilience and independence.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
And what do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It's really hard because I feel so bad for kids
who don't get to experience a sleepover and really want to.
I remember, like I don't remember much from my primary
school days, but I do remember all the sleepovers I
went on. I started going to sleepovers really early on
when I was younger, with just my cousins like family,
(13:50):
and I remember when I started school, my parents were
a bit hesitant on taking me to sleepovers, and I
think they were mainly concerned about the cultural differences. And
I remember so specifically, like my Asian friends and my
ethnic friends like myself were never allowed to go on sleepovers,
and I think that was mainly because of the culture.
I'm biguity of not knowing what happens at different people's houses.
(14:13):
I felt so sad for those friends of mine, because
I'm sure this has changed now with kids having phones
and computers. But I remember after a sleepover, for weeks
on end, that's all we would talk about at school
was the sleepover. And there was one time in particular,
I think I was around nine years old where I
had a fever and I couldn't go to my friend's
birthday party and it was a sleepover and I sobbed
(14:34):
for like a week straight because that's all my friends
could talk about, and it would be the most mundane
little things, like remember when Jessica had that pineapple lolly,
even though she said she hated pineapple lollies, Like it
was those little things, but it just brought such a big,
different experience into our lives. And I just remember having
so much fun, and I felt so sad for my
(14:55):
friends who weren't allowed to go.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
It's interesting because your point about what you just said.
I think that one of the really good things about
sleepovers is observing other families up close. Right if you
only ever see your family and your you know, cultural setting,
whatever that is, because lots of families have their own cultures,
you know what I mean as well, Like if you
only ever see your family up close, you assume that
(15:20):
all of the world is like that. And I think
one of the things that's really good is watching other
families operate. And I'm always really conscious of that When
my kids have sleepovers at our house and there are
other kids there, I sort of think, oh wow, like
they're kind of studying us like a documentary. I think
it's really interesting, right, because I understand the anxiety obviously
(15:41):
the serious worst case scenarios that we've discussed, but it
is worth pointing out in that that sleepovers also involve
grandma's house, anti's house, cousin's house. Those are also sleepovers,
and the statistics will show that very often abuse occurs
within families that are closed or like adults who are
very close and known to you. So total control would
(16:02):
mean no sleepovers ever, including at family's houses. Right, But
then beyond that, you've got to start making some kind
of risk assessment if you're going to be prepared to
do it. And one of the things I feel a
bit bad about this kind of some of the dialogue
I've seen around this new anxiety around sleepovers and Again,
it's around more what time will they go to bed,
(16:23):
and maybe they're gonna eat something that's bad for them,
Maybe they're not gonna go to bed till late, maybe
they'll watch a scary movie. Is I think that this
sort of value judgment around it and this idea, I've
seen quite a lot of people online saying I've decided
I'm not they've only got babies in there, Like I've
decided I'm not gonna let my kids have sleepovers.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
Is if you don't have.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Grandma down the road and an anti nextoor and all
that things, that means you are now granting yourselves no
nights off from parenting ever. Right, We're just constantly piling
more and more pressure on tiny family units and then
wonder why they crack.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
It's like what about the village?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
You know, Like the idea that if you don't have
grandma who lives down the road and you're going to
say no sleepovers, that means you and your partner, if
you've got one and never gonna go and have a
night away, You're never going to go out late.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Like there's a whole lot of.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Things you're never gonna do because you're afraid and I
worry about that.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, And there's this dual tension, right that our kids
are spending too much time on screens and not enough
time with their friends, but also this very real fear
about the risks that the world offers up. So if
you can't leave a kid with a family member or
(17:32):
a friend, then they're always at home. But something's got
to give, so likely there are going to be moments
when they're on their screen, which we know isn't perfect either.
This is massive on TikTok, on kind of parent TikTok, right,
And I was listening to some of the sentences that
some are experts like pediatricians, and others are parents giving
(17:53):
some advice, and they said one was sexual assault is
committed by people we know love and trust, and another
was a father. And there's got so many likes and
so much engagement when it comes to my kids, I
don't trust anybody, and I don't think we can live
in that world. On the one hand, I totally understand
it if you have had that experience, I can't imagine
(18:15):
what it would be like raising a child when you
have had a traumatic experience as a child yourself. But
if you haven't, I think you can mitigate risk, you
can make sensible decisions from knowing who the family is,
knowing who's going to be around. Interestingly, the discussion in
the US, and this is relevant, is there guns in
the house. Luckily that isn't one that's relevant to Australia.
(18:39):
But I do reckon that at some point you've got
to trust the adults around you and if you are
sitting there with this like enormous anxiety, then your child
is going to absorb that and that can't be good either, right.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, But I also have a question on if something
does go a bit wrong, like how do you manage
the parenting after that? Like another example I had at
a sleepover was I was at a friend's birthday. I
think we were probably eleven years old, and two of
the girls got into the mum's alcohol cabinet.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
Yeah, this is the most common scenario in the world, right, Okay,
this is good to know because it's traumatized for life.
It's the most common scenario.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
And they were just like swigging, I want to say,
like the worst alcohol. And then they started violently throwing up.
And then the mom came in and she was like,
oh my god, all the parents were called, we all
got picked up, but then one of them wasn't allowed
to go to any sleepovers for the rest of the year,
and the other one just showed up at the next party.
And as kids who weren't involved, we were very very confused,
(19:46):
and even my parents were a bit like, well, you
were there, but did you do it? Like it was
really hard to navigate. They were just very.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Confused, just like every bit of parenting. One of the
things that we're all really afraid of now is everybody
else's judgments, right, so that happens still happens all the time.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
And that scenario that you talked about.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
The first time I ever got drunk was a sleepover,
or the first time I ever saw an adult magazine
was probably a sleepover. Like, it is true that these
things happen.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Your sleepovers are much cooler.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Them, but nothing disastrous occurred, you know what I mean.
It was just that kind of stuff. And the thing
is is, obviously I have a teenager and we've been
through a lot of sleepover things.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
It's different for me.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I'll talk more about my daughter's sleepovers because my son
that's a little bit different, and kids who have different needs.
You know, you've got to have different rules. But my
daughter's very social. She loves her friends, and sleepovers is
the thing they all want to do. And I'm not
in the business of telling other people what to do,
but I allow them, and I allow them at my house.
But I'd have my own rules, which I think every
(20:44):
family does. It's like my house, my rules. So in
our house, they're not allowed their phones after a certain time,
so I'll go in and take everybody's phones and stuff.
Sometimes kids get upset about that.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
It's tough.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
It's my house, my rules, right, same way that if
we're having pizza for dinner, we're having pizza for dinner. Obviously,
dietaries not exclusives.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh my god, I could never do the like, I
don't know, aren't you just like?
Speaker 5 (21:05):
What if they hate me? I don't care. And I'm
not very particularly strict.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
But the thing that I always do because when I
was my daughter's age, I was a naughty teenager and
I lied about where I was staying the night nearly always.
So my number one thing is I always check. I
have to have the parent's phone number, and I obviously
when she was little, I had to know them and
all that but she's older. Now I have to have
the parent's phone number. I always check with the parent.
So and so it says they're staying at your house,
(21:30):
is that true?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Will you be home?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Like? That's base level stuff, And most I know this
is big on TikTok, and I feel like it's a
particular thing when your kids are little and you're looking
ahead and you're going I will never But most parents
I know sit somewhere in a sensible center on this,
which is they have their own boundaries. Like, so, Matilda
had someone stay over last week, I wasn't there, so
obviously I made sure that her parents knew that I
(21:54):
wasn't there and that Brent was there, and were they
okay with that? Like just communication, you know what I mean?
And I think that most people are like that.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
They're sensible, and things are going to happen at sleepovers
that aren ideal. Like on the one hand, you've got
I'm sure we all remember, you know, the two way
conversations and the realizing how shit you feel the next
day when you didn't get any sleep and all of that.
But on the other hand, I remember instances of bullying,
of complex friendship dynamics. It means being said, all of
(22:25):
those things happen too, but they are something that you
deal with as a teenager. You learn things from it,
and again it reinforces your independence. But for cultural reasons,
for family reasons, for religious reasons, for a million reasons,
some families won't do sleepovers. And it's not the only
(22:45):
way that you can encourage independence, right, Like.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
No, And actually what happens now is something called a
sleep under. So I've got friends who do their kids
have sleepovers and that's fine. And Matilda's got friends whose
parents will other kids sleepover. So sleep under is where
they come and they do all the fun things that
the other kids are doing, so you know, like if
you're getting some pizza or doing whatever, hanging out, but
then they come and pick them up at about ten
o'clock or like nine o'clock or whatever is the thing.
(23:10):
And that's called a sleep under, and that is really
popular because if for whatever reason you're not comfortable with sleepovers,
your kids still get some of the fun, but just
not the midnight stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
What I struggle with, I guess, is the TikTok parenting
experts wagging their finger at other parents, sort of suggesting
that you're being irresponsible or naive or idealistic if you
allow your child to do anything that is slightly risky.
Because everyone out there is a monster. I don't want
to live in a world where we are treating everyone
(23:41):
as a monster. If this conversation has brought up anything
for you, then we have some resources in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Out loudest in a moment, we have some recommendations for
your weekend. Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 6 (24:03):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It is Friday, so we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly, you go best.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know how my recommendations. I have a reputation with
my co hosts for being a bit basic. Yes, I
am bringing you the most basic of all recommendations because
I think we all know or many of us know that.
And just like that's coming back, which is the polarizing
new version of Sex and the City, which is about
to come back with season three. When does it drop
The end of May May thirty. So I'm like an
(24:34):
athlete preparing for this event.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, she's done training.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
And what I've been doing, and because we've been traveling
a lot, which we'll talk about in a minute. But
one of the things that I do for like a
comfort wind down, is I have been watching the entire
season six, which is the last season of Sex and
the City, the TV show, Right.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
I loved that last season.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Oh my god, it is so good.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
And I know there are problematic things about it, don't
at me. There definitely are. There's a bit where Charlotte
puts a mascot and pretends to be blind. There's quite
a lot of stuff that just is not okay. But
as a season of television, in these thirty minute storytelling chunks,
so much happens in that season. You know what I'm
talking about if you're familiar. Carrie meets Berger, gets dumped
(25:22):
by Berger, Miranda goes out with the guy who lives downstairs,
gets back together with Steve, they get married, Samantha gets cancered,
Carrie meets the hot Russian, they have their whole thing,
moves to Paris, Charlotte's getting pregnant child black Like, so
much happens in this one season, and it is funny
and light and so well told, and I am loving it.
(25:43):
And I'm just recommending that if you just want to
turn your brain off and just enjoy some excellent classic
like TV, especially if you are limbering up for and
just like that season six it is untouchable. It is Oh,
it's on Max.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
By the way, everybody, how about you, M what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So I recently got a notification on my book app
because I had it said that I wanted to read
fifty books this year, and then I got a note
for saying, if you want to stick to your goal,
you need to read six books a month.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So instead of reading goal on your reading app like Kindling, Yeah,
I have fable.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
It's an app that you can like track all your
books and stuff on it. A lot of people use
it similar to Goodreads.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Have you already read my book on there?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I definitely have read your book, Kelly, and I've given
you five stars.
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Thank you very much, my friend. Please proceed, Please proceed.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So I was recommended this book by a friend. It's
called The God of the Woods by Liz Moore, and
it's kind of a thriller mystery drama. And the reason
I picked it up was because I've kind of been
in a hole of romanticy novels like I've been reading
my fairy smut. I've been reading about sexy dragons and
I was like, I need to get out of this.
I can't just this can't.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Be my thing.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But you love that stuff, right, I love that stuff,
And I think it's when I first got into Romanticy.
It was just something that's so different from everyday life.
I feel like when I read books now, I'm always
like in the back of my head looking for a pitch,
like an article or something to talk about in a podcast,
and with Romanticy, you actually can't do that because it's
about dragons essentially.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
I love that. So many people do. People just talk
to me all the time about Romanticy. It's so good.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So this book is actually a thriller mystery drama. It's
still a novel, but it's about this girl named Barbara,
and it's set in nineteen seventy five at an exclusive,
high end summer camp for kids. And I picked it
up holes straight after your book, so I now know
a lot about camping two books. So it's set at
this camp and Barbara goes missing, and Barbara in particular
(27:45):
is the daughter of the extremely wealthy family that owns
the camp and also employs pretty much the entire region
they live in, so they're very very high up family,
and her disappearance came fourteen years after her brother disappeared
in a very similar way. Oh this is mye gripping.
(28:06):
It's so well written. Oh it's so well doneminds me
a lot of your book Hold with the descriptions of
the camp and the maps and everything, so you can
kind of like see it in your head. And it's
just one of those thrillers that I physically couldn't put down.
It's very similar to like Gillian Flynn's writing. I absolutely
loved it.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Remind me what it's called.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
It is called The God of the Woods by Liz Moore.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
All right, that's my next raad. My recommendation is purely
here to make both of you feel like bad people.
And that is my reco is giving blood. I gave
blood last Friday. I've already told you both. I've already
told everyone I've come across. I saw, you know, Amelia's
husband is a doctor, and i'd run into him recently
and I told him within thirty seconds that I'd give
(28:48):
him blood because doctors really like it when you give blood.
So anyway, I should tell all of you too. I
also tell everyone that I have magic blood, which is
own egg, which means that I am obligated to give
blood because I am a It's like you're a vampire's dream. Yes,
when Spider Man says, with great something comes great responsibility,
(29:09):
that's me with blood. So did you know that giving
blood like needle goes in seven minutes? Seven minutes? I
had to have a bit of a consult before because
I traveled recently, and so that you should look that
up before you do it. It's like I'd been to Fiji
and it's got to be four weeks before you can
do it. So there's just some funny things and a
(29:30):
few people get caught out once they're there. So I
would definitely check. But I think a lot of people
think with blood it's a car accident or these traumatic accidents,
and that's true. Your blood is especially own negative, is
often used for that. But if you know anyone who
is going through cancer treatment, the chances are they will
need it at some point because it helps them, you know,
(29:50):
do the chemo or the radiation or whatever. I have
a friend's mum who's needed a few transfusions lately, and
so it is such a privilege to be in the
position where you're well enough to do it. And I
have felt like such a good person for the last week.
And every time you tell someone they really do have
to give you a pat on the back. It's just like,
(30:11):
sometimes I don't feel like a good person, and that
has just been honestly, it has given me a lot
of self esteem.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
It's on my list of things I've got to get
around to doing when things calm down and inverted commas. And
also plasma if you can do that too, that is incredibly.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Yes, plasma, and you can give plasma more often as well.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Jesse, I don't know if it was you, but someone said,
if you're single, going to a blood bank.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
It was me.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
It was me.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
I wrote a story, so I gave blood years ago,
and I hadn't done it in a few years because
I'd had some issues with iron deficiency. But we went
as a workplace because someone that we love who we
worked with was diagnosed with cancer and we all went
and gave blood. And I was like, I know, this
isn't the point, but everyone here is really hot. And
not only were they hot, but they had great values
(30:57):
because they were like, I care about saving lives, and
I looked around and went, this is a single girl's dream.
And I remember speaking to Life Blood about it. It's often,
you know, it's like a professional who's going on their
lunch break and they're just like, honestly, em, I reckon go,
(31:17):
don't give too much. You've still got to be standing.
You need enough blood for yourself. But I reckon go
and just look around and I think you might meet
the love of your life at the blood bank.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
Whoa a win is a win?
Speaker 4 (31:28):
After the break, the highs and lows of being on
the road, a very inappropriate question, and a special birthday,
it is time for Best and Worst.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
One unlimited out loud access.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma
Mia subscribers.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Follow the link of the show notes.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
To get us in your ears five days a week.
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Holly, do you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I will.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
I'm breaking the rules a little bit to them.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I'm going to mush them up together because my best
and worst are the same thing. We have talked about
the tour a little bit. We're going to talk about
it a little bit more in a minute too, some
very special people on the road. But my best and
worst this last week and the last few weeks has
been tour travel because I absolutely love traveling. I love flying,
I love hotels, I love doing the shows. I love
(32:25):
pushing myself. I love hanging out with you guys and
all the crew. I love it, like I genuinely love it.
But I have been away from my family so much.
And this is exacerbated by the fact that obviously, as
a lot of out loud as know, a couple of
well four years ago now, I moved down the coast
in New South Wales, so I don't live near Sydney.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
I don't live near the airport.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
So that complicates things in that it means that often
when we come back to town, if we're going again soon,
like I end up staying in hotels more and away.
So there's been long stretches where I haven't seen the family.
And we always knew, Like Brent and I at the
beginning of this year, when we were looking at the year,
we were like, well, May is just crazy because I've
got a book coming out, which is an amazing, you
(33:07):
know thing.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
You work so hard on.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
And finally comes and then we've got the tour, which
is the highlight of my mom and me are out
loud year.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
I love it. But they were all colliding. So we're
just new.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
So we talked to the kids and we're just like,
talk to the dog, talk to everybody, talk to the plants.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Just like, I'm going to be traveling a lot. I'm
not going to be around.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It's not going to be great, but we'll get through it,
and then we're all going to go on holiday together
in the school holidays. But it's so weird, and I
know there are so many people who have to travel
for work or lots of different reasons. Maybe they're fly
and fly out, maybe they're you know, doing lots of
different things. That it's like a great privilege really because
you get to still with your parent and you've got
a busy family life, because you get to live a
(33:46):
little bit of just you, just you being selfish, like
sitting in a hotel room watching sex in the city, right,
you know, winding down from a show. But then on
the other hand, I just by the end of last week,
I was just pining for them, like just absolutely pining
for them, and you know, that you're not there for
things you should be there for, and you know you're
just not there for all the incidental little stuff, and
(34:08):
you know that the cabbage is are and it's just
the caterpillars are having their way with your broccoli.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
How do you feel at the end of it, Holly,
do you really really miss them? Do you just want
to go in?
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I really really miss them?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
And then the thing that's funny about it, and again
lots of people who travel for work will know this
is then you get home and you're home for like
a day, and it's like you are never gone, and
the washing is up to the ceiling and they're all
just like, oh, they're so happy to see you when
you first get home. But then they're just everyone just
slots back into normal life and you're like, oh yeah,
and then you're like, oh, hotel room would be kind
of nice. No, So it's been like, I know, I
(34:44):
sound like a very privileged winter because these are the
best things about my job, right, Like, this is such
good stuff, you know, talking to people about my book.
He would never talk to people about the tour, meeting
out loud as on the tour, traveling with all these
smart women but fuck, I miss my family a lot
and it's a weird.
Speaker 5 (34:59):
High low situation.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
Yeah, I know what you mean. Em what was your worst?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So my worst. This is gonna sound so lame compared
to Holly's work, but it's kind of similar with the
traveling around, Like I don't think I'm cut out for
the rock star life. Like it's just a lot of hotels,
a lot of flights, which I absolutely love and it's
so exciting and it's so new to me. But I
am the most undisciplined person in history, to the point
(35:26):
where I genuinely think I need to be studied because
I don't understand it. If I'm not held accountable for
doing things, I just won't do them. And I've been
really taking the mickey out of this whole, like little
stint of ours being away and everything's just out of
control of my life, Like I haven't planned when to
do my washing. My apartment's been in a constant mess.
(35:48):
I've been in the office when I'm not allowed to
be in the office because it's still under construction. I've
just been breaking so many rules. I've been sleeping in,
I've been eating crazy, i haven't been taking my vitamins,
and I'm starting to now feel the ramifications for all
of that, Like I am starting to become a frazzle person.
I'm not a frazzle person, generally hard relate.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
And I've not eaten. I know, we don't do good food,
bad food. God, I've eaten like crap and I'm feeling it.
It's like, because you're so out of whack, you just
sort of eat what you can get and you get
to the end of it and go, no, I probably
need a vegetable.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Literally, i haven't even vegetable. I've been like surviving on
meta musial my whole boughs because it's just been insane,
to the point where my mom came over I think
it was after the Brisbane show, and she just came
over and cleaned my apartment and kissed me food and
was like, you need to figure this out because I
can't do this.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
For the rest of my life.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But I'm like, that's true.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
I'm sure that's a Telesis's mum does too, surely.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
But my best was also related to show because I
celebrated my birthday for the Sydney show and it was
hands down the best birthday I've ever had. It was
just so much fun. I get a lot of anxiety
from my birthday. On my twenty third birthday, I had
my first anxiety attack and it was at like a
big party I had for myself, and since I was
(37:08):
twenty three, I haven't had a party for my birthday
since then. Like I've had my go to was like
a dinner with three of my closest friends, a dinner
with my parents, and a breakfast with my grandparents, and
I've just done that every year. And then the Sydney Show.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
It was just so much fun.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And I think it's because I had just sure a
great habit to build, but I had so much anxiety
for the Sydney Show that the anxiety for my birthday
just never came.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
And it was just fun and everyone was stay out
loudest spontaneously sang you I need to.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Find out who started that, because it wasn't anyone I know.
I've asked everyone and they were like, oh, sorry, it
wasn't ass So it was. It wasn't out louder and
it was so beautiful and the crew and you guys
were just so nice and you made me feel so special.
And it was the first birthday where it was all
happiness and zero anxiety, and I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 5 (37:59):
It was so much fun.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
I was so special to spend your birthday with you
and the big twenty nine. No, my worst is it's
a question I got asked at the park. And I
want to be clear because I actually don't think there's
anything inappropriate about this question. And I've had great conversations
with women about it, right, And that is the second
(38:21):
baby question. I am constantly having conversations about it. You know,
people can be really touchy, and I get it about
when you're having a baby, did it? Like all of
that stuff can be a button for people. But I've
had lots of women say to me, are you thinking
about a second? And We've had great conversations and I'm
really honest with them and we go back and forth.
(38:43):
And I'm always asking people about the age gap and
when did you decide to have a second and blah
blah blah. But I was at the park and this
woman came over to me and asked how old Luna
was and asked if I was thinking about having a second,
which is fine, but it was the follow up questions
that I found to be inappropriate, like bordering on almost
a bit like aggressive, like annoid that I hadn't had
(39:04):
a second. So she was like, she came over, asked
you think about having a second, and then like why
haven't you had one yet? What are you waiting for?
And when were you thinking? And if she's nearly two,
then it might be time. And she was like nearly
aggressive about it, And I thought, do you want me
to turn to you, stranger who I have never met,
(39:25):
and talked to you about my ovulation schedule and how
that is intersecting with my husband's availability, Like do you
help pride it? These conversations are you don't know if
I've been struggling for twelve months. You don't know if
I'm currently pregnant, you don't know if I have had
pregnancy loss. Like it's just a very sore topic. And
(39:50):
on my way back from the park, I was like,
the thing is that everyone who has one baby has
thought about a second, either they've decided that they don't
want to, or they do want to or whatever. It's like,
you're not bringing.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
Them the idea.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
You're not planting an idea that hasn't crossed my mind.
I'm obviously thinking about that. I am very aware of
age all that kind of stuff. I just thought, if
someone is a stranger, like love conversations with strangers, but
just don't compound the fertility anxiety and don't keep going.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's so funny, not funny, hahd. But Jesse, I think
because you know, there's so much out there now, we
share so much on STUCI. I don't mean usk, yes,
but I sort of think everyone's got the memo about
like not asking people those kind of questions, just like
you don't ask people if they're pregnant, or you don't
ask people if they want to have kids, or if
they're about to get married.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Like, in my mind, we've all got that memo and
we don't push it. But clearly that's a false reality.
Clearly there's plenty of pushing still going on.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
And I have a theory that it is worse when
you've had one. I reckon that if you don't have kids.
I've got heaps and mates without kids, and I think
people go, you know what, none of my business. Maybe
they don't want them, maybe they do whatever. When you've
had one, it's like you've opened the door for people
to go, Are you having more like they think that
conversation is appropriate when I know a lot of people
who have struggled with a second or for various reasons,
(41:18):
don't want one. It's just like, yeah, people think that
it's an appropriate kind of thing, and if you're a mate,
so happy to have the conversation, but strangers just different.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Oh my god, that's so stressful to me.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
My best is we've been touring for six or seven years.
We've been doing it for a while, and I reckon
we've done more than fifty live shows. Yeah, and this
has been my absolute favorite for a few reasons. We've
had a few special guests on the road with us,
and speaking of sleepovers, it's been like a big sleepover
(41:53):
with just the best company because you spend so much time.
You have dinner together, you're backstage together, like I've just
loved that incidental time and the crew, like you know,
we get on stage and get an applause and do
what I maintain is the easy bit, the logistics, the
work that has gone on behind the scenes. And I
(42:14):
couldn't possibly name everyone but Paula and Ruth and em
Lucy Lucy's Oh, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
So many co Co and Tessa who are traveling with
us and doing all the socials that you're seeing. This
one here Emily Vernon, who's stepping out on stage for
the first time in front of all those people.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Exactly, And now we can actually name who the other
special guest was, because now everyone knows. Of course, Amelia Lester.
Amelia was on the road with us, and like, spending
time with you two has just been so much fun.
So we're just so lucky.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It's such a good team. Like it's so much fun.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
Such a good team. So I've just enjoyed it so much.
It's been not only my best for the week, but
I reckon it'll be the highlight of my ear for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Massive appreciation to all those amazing women. And you know
what's funny we talked about this, it's not entirely true
because there are some dudes behind the scenes who came
upon the Sydney Show.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
There's Josh.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
We were in Brisbane and all the crew came up
on the stage to take a bow and I knew
someone who was there and she said, oh my god,
seeing all that all female crew, you know, it was
so empowering.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
It was so powerful and Jesse.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
I told Jesse that after dinner, and we looked at
each other and went that had never even heard like
We're just so used to being surrounded by amazing kicks
women that like, it doesn't seem remarkable, but you know what,
I bet it is remarkable.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Honestly, Wow, wow, wow wow, so much fun, so cool.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
That is all we have time for today. We will
stop talking about the tour now. It probably really annoys
everybody who didn't get back to original programming. But a
massive thank you to all of you out louders who
listen to us today, any day every week. We'll be
back in your ears on Monday. Jesse and them read
us out.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Big thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth
Devine executive producer Emmeline Gazillis, both of whom I have
bought sympathy cards for after how much time they've i
to spend with us over the last month.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Our audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer is
Josh Green, our one man in our big team, Hey,
and our junior content producers Coco and Tessa.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Bye bye, out Louders. We know you're not ready to
say goodbye. We thought we would leave you with a
little bit of a conversation we had on a subscriber
episode yesterday about an out louder who was having a
pretty good time with a situationship that needed to end
it and she hadn't ended a relationship in more than
twenty years. Look did she come to the right place
(44:45):
for advice?
Speaker 5 (44:46):
You will see a link to.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
That episode will be in the show notes. Shout out
to any Mum and mea subscribers listening. If you love
the show and you want to support us, subscribing to
Mom and Mia is the very best way to do so.
There's a link in the episode description
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