October 5, 2025 • 31 mins
Do you think one day you'd like to write a book? Well Outlouders... we've quite the little treat for your public holiday.
If you've ever had that thought (and let's be honest, who hasn't?), Holly and Jessie are about to give you the complete insider's guide. Em Vernem asks them every question you've ever had about how to write a book – and gets the unfiltered answers.
How do you turn a random idea into an actual book? What's the real process of finding a publisher? Are any of their characters based on real people?
In this episode, Holly and Jessie are sharing industry secrets, behind-the-scenes stories and even sneak peeks into their next book ideas.
Plus, Jessie shares some game-changing advice from legendary author Jane Harper that every aspiring writer needs to hear.
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Why No One's Having Sex In Bed Anymore
- Listen: Cool Things People Do That We Think Are Very Rock 'n' Roll
- Listen: Decoding The Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban Divorce Narrative
- Listen: An Emergency Meeting About Nicole & Keith
- Listen: Vanessa Amorosi, Emma Watson & The Problem When Kids Earn More Than Their Parents
- Listen: Victoria Beckham’s Version & Jessie’s Very Big News
- Listen: “Tough It Out”. The Announcement That Upset Us More Than We Expected
- Listen to Parenting Out Loud: Rihanna & A$AP Rocky's 'Love Junk' Rebrand & The TikTok Training Camp
Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- All of Holly Wainwright's books in one place.
- The 40 best books to inhale in a weekend, according to Mamamia readers.
- The 22 best books Reese Witherspoon has recommended.
- 'I'm a new mum who read 60 books last year. This is how I actually did it.'
- If you loved A Court of Thorns and Roses, here are 6 romantasy books to read next.
- At age 30, Colleen Hoover was living in a trailer. Now she's sold 20 million books.
- Solo parenting and book writing: A real day in the life of Phoebe Burgess.
- The writing courses Jessie recommended: Writer's Studio: Novel & Script First Draft & Writer's Studio: Unlock Your Creativity
THE END BITS:
Check out our merch at MamamiaOutLoud.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
On high out louders. It's Jesse here today.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
We are doing something a bit special because it's a
public holiday for some of you, and look, let's be transparent,
it's public holiday for us. Some of you will be
on your way to work to that. We are very sorry,
but we wanted to share one of our subscriber only
episodes with you as a little treat, so you can
get a taste of some of the conversations that we
have with just our subscribers. This episode is all about
(00:44):
writing books, and we had so many of you write
in with your pressing questions about how you write a book,
the editing process, procrastination, agents so much, and m Vernon
sat down with Holly and I and she just presented
all these questions. We held nothing back. We're talking about
(01:06):
how you actually turn a random idea into a book,
how you even know it's a book, the real process
of finding a publisher, and we spill on whether any
of our characters or plot lines.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Are based on real people.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I also share a golden nugget of advice I received
from the Jane Harper, yes, the author who wrote the
drive love that name drop. That completely changed how I
approach writing, and it's the advice every aspiring writer needs
to hear.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I think.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
In this episode two, I share what my current doc
of ideas for book three looks like. It's the most
mortifying thing I've ever shared. I can't believe this is
going public. We cover all kinds of conversations for our subscribers,
and this is just a small taste. If you enjoy
this peek behind the curtain, then remember that every Tuesday
and Thursday we drop these episodes. There is a link
(01:56):
in the show notes if you'd like to become a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Hello, out Louders our subscriber out Louders and vandam here
with hollywayen Wright and Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Hello today.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Now we have a special episode today because there is
a big difference between two people at this table versus
the one here and.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Has more collagen.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Two people here have written books, books, indeed, and one
of us has not.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So do you want to?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I do actually want to, But I feel like once
you say that, then you have to And yeah, you
know what receipt.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
You don't have to live slung.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, no one check in with me. So I have
a list of questions from the out louders on what
it takes to write a book, what it's like to
write our book. I feel like so many people either
want to write a book and want to know how
to write a book, and the questions are so so much.
I also have my own little questions here, so I
thought I'll put you guys on the spot.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I reckon that this is of all the things we
get asked you reckon, this is what you get asked
about people are most interested in. And I, before I
wrote a book, was fascinated, like I had so many questions.
I remember sliding into Sally Hepworth's DMS and just asking
her one hundred things. I did a whole book club season.
I remember where I just basically sat down with my
(03:18):
favorite authors and was like, how do you write a book?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah? That was genius move on your part. That was
when I was like, yeah, she's so clever. I did
a talk at my daughter's school last week about writing,
did you? And what was interesting is that I was
looking at all these like fifteen sixteen seventeen year olds.
I said, does anybody here want to be a writer?
And everyone who was there like liked writing, That's why
they were there. But the idea of like writer as job,
(03:43):
I think is very weird, and increasingly so. It's also
because people like me will say, like, I don't actually
know it. Very many people who that's all they do,
like writer as part of a job that includes other things,
or writer as side hustle, or writer as But like
I wonder if people will even say they want to
be a writer.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But when I was five, it was book writer. Yeah, yeah,
I didn't even know the word author. It was I
want to be a book writer.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Same, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I was actually my first question because both of If
you have worked in journalism for so long, you've written
like thousands of articles of words of words, a lot
of words, you know a lot of words. Do you
have to be a writer before you can write a book?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
I see writing as a muscle that can be strong
or can be weak. At the moment, I think my
writing muscle is really weak. And I was just saying
to my sister Claire, who's just finished a book. I
was saying to her, while it's strong, keep writing because
you can feel it go floppy and then I sit
down and I find it like trying to run and
not being able to get into a rhythm. So I
(04:44):
think that for anyone, and I've seen this people who
aren't writers, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Think there's such thing as people who are writers or aren't.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
But I don't think you can not read, not write,
and then sit down try and write a book.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
It's not going to work.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
I think the biggest thing if you want to get
better at writing, it's such a cliche, but you've just
got to be constantly reading and then write anything, anything.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah. And the reason that a lot of the writers
that you know, people have written books you know are
writers is because usually if you know you love writing
and words, you know that quite young, and you're probably
quite likely to try and find a job that includes
that in some way. And so obviously, you know, when
I was a little kid, I love books and I
wanted to write books. But being an author, like a
(05:25):
full time book writing author, is a very difficult thing
to achieve as a job, like as your first job,
you know what I mean. And I think probably it's
going to become more so so getting into journalism getting
into magazine writing, getting into content creation, getting into whatever
it is. It's a job that's adjacent to words. And
that's why. That's why so like lots and lots of
journalists want to be authors one day and will be
(05:47):
authors one day whatever, but they basically have chosen a
job that keeps them close to the words that they love.
I think, but Jesse's hundred percent right. If you want
to be a good writer, you've just got to read, read, read,
re read.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Okay, back to like when you first first started, for
the two of you, what came first the idea that
ended up being a book, or wanting to write a book,
and then thinking about the idea for the book later.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Mine was the idea.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I always had this idea that I wanted to write
a book before or around the age of thirty.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I don't know why.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I just had that as some kind of deadline of like,
I think I would like to attempt it by then.
I suppose I probably had that idea at like eighteen,
thinking that thirty was really far away, and then in
my late twenties I was like, oh shit, I should
get to that, and I always knew what it was
going to be. I have no answer for how I knew.
I never looked for it, and my second book was
the same. I just knew that I had enough to
(06:43):
say that I could sit with this idea for at
least a year. But I know a lot of people
who go, I want to write a book, and then
they go searching for that, especially people who write a
book a year, and then they go searching for plot.
But I'm in the situation now where I really want
to write another book. I want to be in the
depths of it, but I cannot find the thing, and
I'm finding that very frustrating.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I think there are lots of different ways to be
a writer. We always talk books as if they're one thing,
but they're not. You know, like thinking about the difference
between a cookery book and a memoir and a novel,
and a literary novel and a dragon sex book novel.
You know, like, there are a million different ways to
be a writer, and every writer will have a different
story about how they came to be that and how
(07:27):
they then determine what they're going to write. Because obviously,
if you're writing a series, that sets you out a
nice clear path and you've got to figure that one
out right, if you've always just had it in you
to tell this one particular story, or you're a memoirist,
then obviously that's what you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
For me.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
My story's a bit different to Jesse's in that when
I was a kid, I did always want to be
a writer, and I did build a career close to
words in journalism. I think that somewhere in the middle
of all that, I lost faith or confidence that I
would ever write a book, like it just seemed like
something I didn't actually know anyone who had written books
like I was. And then in my later life when
I came to work here at Mamma Mia, and I
remember really clearly the first book launch I went to
(08:02):
for a staff member at Mama Mia who'd written a book.
I just was so excited by it. But also I
was like, oh my God, like it happens people you know,
Like it does happen you know, and there is no
getting away from it. Recognizing advantage of privilege here that
working in the media, and particularly different kinds of the
media does give you an advantage in terms of access.
(08:23):
And also people always say, can't be we can't see
the access to seeing people who've done it and how
they do it and how they approach it and all
the things. So for me, I'd always wanted to write novels.
That was always my dream, but I think it had
moved out of my reach, and then it sort of
began to seem like it was within my reach again.
And then I had a really good idea for my
first novel, which was Nomami Blogers, which was about women
(08:44):
writing online because that's what I was working in, and
I was like, this would be such a great story,
because I think that if you're a writer and you're creative,
you see stories everywhere all the time, like things happen
in the news, things happen in your office, things happen
in your family, and you go, what a great story,
What a great story? Like you're endlessly curious. It's not
a whole plot, but it's a starting point. Lots of
writers do things like they keep notes, apps or physical
(09:05):
folders or diaries where they just write ideas all the
news stories like that guy on the run in the
hills or you know, blah blah. You file them all
away and then when you're ready to tell a story,
you can like pull them out and see them so
that's how it worked for me. And then I sent
that idea off to some publishers and I said, like,
I think this could be great. I can see how
it would work. I work in this world. I know
it well, it's something I could bring to life, and
(09:27):
that's how I got started.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's so interesting. So because you started with the Mummy
Boggers and then you went into How to Be Perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, which was a sequel, which was a sequel. That's
my other question.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
How did you know that the Mummy Bogger story wasn't finished?
But then did you feel like you ended it with
How to Be Perfectly?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Well?
Speaker 1 (09:45):
The truth of it is the thing about it, right,
People talk about it is this really mystical thing, and
in some ways it can be. But also it's a job, right,
So once you've started and you're getting paid for it.
So I got paid to write The Mummy Bloggers and
it did quite well. I didn't get paid very much,
to be clear, but I got paid to write. Then
it did quite well, and so it was like could
we write another one? And I was like yes, Like
I think these characters could definitely and I wanted to
(10:05):
write about influences and health influencers, because that was very
much much in the world. So I wrote that book
knowing that the publishers wanted it and it would publish,
But it didn't do as well as the first one.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Didn't you write that first book in like five minutes.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I didn't write it in five minutes, but I wrote
most of it. I took a month off work over Christmas,
like January, and I wrote most of it in six weeks.
Not the whole thing. WHOA six weeks?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, most of it you'd planned.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I've planned it, and I'd written parts of it, but
then I broke the back of it in six weeks.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And Jesse, you've written fiction and nonfiction. What did you
find the most difficult transition between the both and did
you find one harder than the other?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
I found my second book easier, but I don't know
if that's because it's fiction or because it was my
second book. I remember Jane Harper saying to me, it
gets easier, like every single time you write a book,
it actually does get easier. Does I dispute this fact, Well,
I think that it depends what you're writing.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Back For me, it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Get any And this is my theory. About why. I
Holly thinks that is.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
That when you go into a completely different zone and
challenge yourself in a new way, I think then you
fill out of your depth again. Like the sign of
professional growth is constantly feeling out of your depth. And
Holly's done that. Every single book has been like this
ambitious feat of like I'm going to further myself, whereas
if you were going to write, and some people do this,
(11:32):
there's almost something formulation. I don't think Jane is that,
but I think that there are some people who it's
really clever to kind of go, I'm going to write that.
But I definitely found the second book easier. But with
both I felt like impostery because I didn't know how
to do it. And I've told lots of people who
have DMed me about book stuff that I did a
course called Unlocking Creativity, which is an online course that
(11:56):
anyone can do. I think it's four weeks and it
just teaches you, like I couldn't write a scene. I
didn't know how to imagine something and write it down.
So I did that course and then the same one.
I'll put it in the show notes, but my sister
did the one about I think writing a whole manuscript
in nine months something like that, and it holds your
hand to do it because there is a science to it,
(12:17):
like there is a way that you can do it,
and if you're finding that stuff hard, then there are
courses that will help you achieve it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
When it comes to writer's block, how do you get
over it? And also where does writer's block usually appear
in your writing journey?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I definitely have struggled with writer's block, because I think
she was just saying how she thinks writing books gets easier,
Like for me, I've written five books and I still
don't think I know how to do it. Like when
people ask me how you do it, I'm genuinely stumped.
I'm like, I don't know, Like I don't know how
you do it, except that you just do it, like
as in, you have to have the discipline. And I
(12:54):
know it's such a cliche, but you do have to
have the discipline to just sit down and do it.
There's a myth that like, oh, if I only had
to do that, I would write eight hours a day
as if it was my job. And most writers would
never do that, you know, even writers who that is
their job. Two hours is a pretty good stint of
like full on creative focus. But writing a lot of
writing happens before the writing thinking. Like for me, a
(13:17):
lot of ideas do come while you're writing, but you're
thinking about the plot all the time, thinking about the characters,
what's going to happen to day. So when I get blocked,
the only way through it is to write. Write anything,
Just write anything. And what I often do is I'll
go in my little shed when it's a writing day
and I know I've got a certain amount of words
I've got to get done, and if I'm not feeling
it is I'll sit in my chair. I have a
small bookshelf in my office. I've got like lots of
(13:40):
books in my house, but that's got a certain number
of books that I particularly love on there. Jesse's books
are on there, and I will grab one and open
it like almost randomly and read a few pages or
chapters to kind of let the words get in there.
And you, I don't know, it's almost like the rhythm
hits you like me Isaac playing, You.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Know, Yeah, I forget what a sentence looks like? Yeah,
I go, wait, how does a sentence start?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
What are some amazing pieces of dial not to steal them,
but to like get you back in the zone, or
like the brilliant first paragraphs, or I do generally write chronologically.
Not everybody does. I know lots of people who write
the end before the beginning. I'm just not that smart.
You don't do that. God, No, Like I have a
plan and know what's going to happen, but I literally
write the thing from front to back. So I've learned,
(14:26):
particularly with Hewould Never, which is my most recent and
most complicated book. Obviously there was a plan and like
there's a chapter by chapter plan by the end, but
I write it in chronological order, like I couldn't. I
couldn't do it otherwise, but in kind of. But not
everybody does. I know lots of people who write the
last chapter before the first chapter. My head would fall off.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So when you actually get a book deal and you
signed with the publisher, did they also know that like
story arc?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, there's actually different answers to this question, right, because
there are lots of different ways to get a book deal.
You can get a book deal on a whole written manuscript.
You know, that's the classic route, which is that you
send your manuscript off written to lots of publishers and
they accept or reject publishing gossips.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
You get more money that way.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
If you've got a finished manuscript. It's like, that's the
advice that I've heard is like, finish it and you'll
get more money if it's really good.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, because that's when people bid and all that kind
of stuff. Oh, but if you get commissioned to write
a book, which is obviously a safer bet in terms
of you know you're going to get paid to write
this book, you will either get it on a proposal,
which will be like a several page, you know, outline
of the book with a certain amount of detail, maybe
a couple of chapters on spec as well, maybe a
full story outline, but not necessarily Like with I Give
(15:40):
My Marriage a Year, I did not give a full
story outline. I gave a proposal, so the premise and
obviously an outline in the first few chapters. And then
I remember very confidently my having a meeting with my
publisher like halfway through, and she'd been reading it as
I went, because I was sending her chapters as I went,
which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. It depends,
and she was like, I just need to know if
they're going to stay together. And she was like, you know,
(16:02):
don't you? And I was like, yep, I know. I
didn't fucking know. I didn't start that book knowing whether
or not they were going to stay together. I was like,
it sort of came to me as I went. But
then again with he would Never, which is so complicated,
that sort of pantsing as they call it, just wasn't
going to work. And actually when it came back to
me after I did the first draft, I had to
rewrite the second half because it wasn't cohesive enough. And
(16:24):
at that point I did a really really thorough like
chapter by chapter by a bit breakdown and stuck to that.
But before that I'd been much more of a panther.
So I also think it can change, like how you
write a book can change. I don't know what you
think to do.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, I don't think I had the ending very clearly.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I had a pitch, but I would say that if
you've got a picture, even if you have a manuscript.
The thing that I reckon holds people back the most
is holding on to their idare their pitch their work
too tightly I don't know anyone who isn't thrown feedback
that you might go, oh really, and you know, sometimes
(17:03):
you know what's worth fighting for. But a book is
a group project. And like the people who I see
really coming up against lots of walls and barriers, it's
like you've got to take on some feedback, you've got
to take on some edits, you've got to rewrite it.
You've got to rewrite the If people aren't picking up
the proposal and you want to get a book published,
then write a new proposal. I think that you've kind
(17:23):
of got to be a little bit more mariable.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And you also have to remember that if you are
going the classic route of sending on spec got a
great idea for a book, and that you will have
heard published to talk about the slush pile, which is
like a pile of manuscripts or proposals that people have
to read through. You have got to grab them in
the first couple of paragraphs, just like you would in
any other kind of writing. So if you're going that way,
pour your heart into that proposal, make it sound amazing.
(17:46):
And publishers will often say, and I find this disheartening,
but it's true, tell me what kind of book this is?
Like this is exactly like, oh, this is a bit
like heartsick meets blah blah. You know, like, tell me
what kind of book this is a bit like Akata,
This is a bit like blah. And although I kind
of find that dispiriting because all of us authors like
to think we're writing something terribly original, and there's just
(18:07):
not really anything like that out there right now. It's
business now more than the ever. Books are incredibly hard
to sell, and so they need to know that you
understand that you're not just writing this book for you
and your career. I mean, this is if you want
to be a published author, not if you want to
write for your pleasure, but that you know who you're
writing it for and you can see an audience for it.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
And be really clear. Don't say it's for everyone. No
book is for everyone. You've got to be really clear
about your demographic and who it's for.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And on that.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
People who say how do I get my book published?
I always tell them two things. The first is competitions.
That's a big one. There's like New South Wales Victoria
Jane Harper won a competition that's like submit all the time.
You've got to have people read it. And the second
thing is that they often have like open for submissions,
Like certain publishers will do it where they'll go we're
looking for a crime book, We're looking for a blah.
(18:56):
Follow them all on Instagram because I see them pop up,
and I often like tag friends, and I'm like, hand
it along. I know before we were saying, you know,
you get one shot and edit it. I know people
who have written books that haven't shown anyone, and I'm
just like, you got to show someone, Like at some point,
you've got to let it out into the world. No
one I know finishes a book, finishes a proposal and goes,
(19:16):
this is a masterpiece. No, I hate everything I've written.
I would never open a page of it and look
at it. But at some point, you've just got a
trust that you've done the work and that you deserve
to have people read it.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
How did you know when you landed on the right
concept or plot? And also where in your life do
you find your ideas?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Okay, Holly, I want you to answer that question, and
then what I'm going to do is I'm going to
read some of my notes from my book three ideas
document because they are hilarious, Like you're.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Just going some of them, they're going to be amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
No, no, no, they're just words like dementia, aging.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
As I said before, I think if you are somebody
who sees stories, if you're a creative person, you see
them all over the place. So I get a lot
of my ideas from my real life, from the news cycle,
from the women in the world, and with my and
my friendship group, my workmates, all those things. And you know,
we're in a very fortunate position at MoMA MIA in
that we basically talk to Australian women all day every day,
(20:19):
and we hear their stories and we know what's interests
them and what's keeping them up at night and what's
making them happy and all those things. So I think
we're in a very privileged position to be able to
tap into that. But then you need every book needs
a device, right, it needs an overarching plot point that
you can sell to somebody.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
And Elevator ten seconds are so hard at that. I mean,
I'm so bad at that rather, so I find that
so difficult. But I literally keep a sort of file
of ideas, just like Jesse's about to show us on
a phone where you're like, that's something and that's something.
And what usually happens is they'll be like that's something
and that's something, and then you like mush them together
(20:55):
and they turn into something, you know what I mean.
Like it's you're like getting all these little gems and
putting them in your bag and then an idea will
come out. But having said that, I am, and I've
said that I get I'm better at planning and plotting
because they say there are plotters and there are parents,
and the idea is that plotters know exactly what they're
gonna write and how they're going to write it, and
pantss kind of go as they go. I think instinctively,
(21:15):
I'm much more of a panther because very often when
I'm writing and I'm in the story, suddenly you'll be like, yes,
this needs to happen. Oh my god, this guy isn't
who I thought he was. This woman is like more
like this, and that's more like that, And so this
story also changes as you're writing, and then something might
happen in the world and you're like that would be
good to throw in or whatever that kind of stuff.
This is so embarrassing I would not let anyone in
(21:37):
my life open this document is the worst thing I've
ever seen. Okay, So at the top, I've just got tone,
like what tone I should do? Confident?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh yeah, I like that dystopian. Ooh, I've got.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Then I've got teenage girl question mark. I watched Adolescents and.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Adolescence.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
But a girl a book about what it is to
age and about what it is to die?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Would you read that? I don't know what it's about.
Then I've got yes. So what a person goes to
a place we cannot follow? Top point?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I love this.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
This is so like my list the visitors. I don't
know who the visitors are.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Top point?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Good title summer holiday. Oh, top point, I've just got
around in July.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Everybody in publishing want July. Now that book was one
of those books that just genuinely original changes.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Okay, I've written a book with no idea. A house,
a visitor, he goes upstairs, something something old man. His
door is wide open. The house has been ransacked. But
what is missing? I'm going to die?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
This is like, I love it. Document. This is so bad.
That's where I'm at, and I don't know what any
of that is trying to say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I have lis like that on my phone about titles.
Book titles are really hard.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I find I always think I've got the title, realize
it's terrible, slash, get told it's terrible because it is.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
And then terrible.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I have whiteboards, books, everything, and I'm like, it needs
to be like a saying, like a cliche yourself, and
I just can never really, I think you had I
give my marriage a year.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
You had that.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, that's I think that. Actually the title. If you
can nail the title, Lily, it's a good sign for
the book.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
And yeah, most people I know change it last week.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, really, I thought Heartsick was an excellent Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Oh I hated that time.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, and then it was like it we had so
many different versions of it, and what did I I
want you to call it something.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Because heartbreak, heartache, like they're all words.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I wanted a new words for it, and I had
something else. And then I want I want them to
the cover to be really sophisticated, and I like, did
these drawings and they were so bad and they just
we just went back and forth and argued about it,
but they were ultimately right.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Of course, Okay, have you ever lied to your publisher
on how far you really are.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
With your book? Do you tell you? Every single time?
They know, they do know, And unfortunately for Jesse and
I in particular, we have the same publisher actually, well
the same publishing house. They listen to those shows, so
it's like.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
My worship of the week is I haven't started my book.
And then you get a message.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And it's like, how are you going? You're like great,
doing so well?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yes I do. I often lie. They're like how's it going.
I'm like, it's going great. Do you think you're on track? Definitely?
And then I'm like, ah, Like a lot of writing
to deadline is fear and panic, no question about it.
I think guilt and shame helped fear and panic. Guilt
and shame. This is sounding good, isn't it great?
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah, Self hatred will get you to the point where
you're like, I can't let anyone else down, and then
you write in that space, which is really healthy. I've
definitely lied, although I've I have to tell myself and
I don't think this is true that if I miss
the deadline I have to give them money back, Like
I have some kind of view around that and I've
been so diligent with my deadlines. I think it's just
(25:05):
I don't want this book to be unfinished at this
point or way. So I tried to be really really
good with that, and I go through stages of panic
where I go, you've only got this many months left
and you've written these many words, And then I go,
so I don't write every day. I'm not that person
that's really disciplined.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Every day. I lean in and out and in and
out and just.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Say boss over. The problem is because we've worked with
deadlines forever. Deadlines motivate me. If if my deadline isn't looming,
I'm like, you know, looking at my nail, Homer Simpsons
Carousel going in my head, and then as the deadline
comes into view and you're like, oh, now you'll do it. Adrenaline,
definitely adrenaline. But also book deadlines are long, as in
(25:45):
you hand it in and it doesn't get published for
like a year. And for the likes of us who
record a show in the morning and it goes out
in the afternoon, or you ride a post and it
goes up straight away, like, I'm always like, why do
you need so long? Yes, I'm always tried to like
a movie. I always trying to push that a bit.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I'm like, do you really need or do you need
it on a Friday when you're not even gonna worate
it till month?
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Thinks that's always me. I'm like, no Friday deadlines, Like
Friday deadlines are bullshit. I'm going to give it you
on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Well, both of you said, most writers, like yourselves don't
write books full time, Like you have a full time
job before you started writing books, How did you plan
that next stage of your life to look like, including
writing books, and how do you structure your days and
you also have a full time job.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It does not get written without planning.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Like if you think you're just going to find time
to sit down and write eighty thousand words, you're just not.
Like you've got a forge out time like Trent Dalton
told me he did eight till ten every night. Other
people do like a Saturday morning every week, or like
you've got to have a time when you're committed to
it and with heart sick. I remember, I think I
(26:51):
took a week off work to really focus on it,
and that was during COVID, So actually I had more
time than most would have.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I do stop watch for nearly everything.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
I go, all right, we're going to do like thirty minutes,
and then often by the time I check my phone
it's been forty two. And then I feel satisfied, and
then I kind of do it like that. But it's
got to be planned.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
It's same. I wrote the Mommy Bloggers at night because
I was obviously working full time, and I did it
between eight and ten like Trent, until I took that
month off. The annoying thing about my children is now
they don't go to bed at that time, so that's
now it's harder. So but now obviously I try and
get my mom and Mia work done early in the week,
and I try and write on Thursdays and Fridays and
Saturdays and Sundays. But it doesn't always get that neat,
(27:30):
But that's the idea.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
How did you tell friends about whether they influenced any
characters in your book?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
My experiences is that all your friends think they're in
your books. Everybody thinks it's like the Carl Simon song.
Everybody thinks that the book is about them, right, So
a lot of my friends, obviously with he would never
it's I've said lots of times that I do go
on camping with a group of friends once a year, families,
and that's the story of the book. So that's obviously
and everyone's like, are they in it? And my friends
(27:59):
themselves were like, AHI in it, and they were really nervous.
And I took all the books, the first editions of
the books to the camping trip because time aligned, and
handed them out, and the girls were and the men
were all like grabbing them and flicking through them looking
for themselves. But they're not in it. It's not that
like people think it's like that, but it's not like that.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I find that the thing you actually have to do
is say you are going to read about this character.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They're not you.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
They're not and they really really aren't. And there are
some things where I've gone, oh, that would really hurt
that person if they thought that was kind of based
on you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And you might take things that have happened to people
in your lives and put them in your books in
a way, but it's not like the whole point of fiction.
And this is what I say to people all the time.
It is like, of course it's inspired by my life
and people I know, But I'm not writing about you.
I would never like. There are some amazing plots in
my friend groups that like, as I'm sure with all
of us that you're like, somebody should write that, but
(28:51):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I find that in smushing things together, like this
will be something my friend said and then something he
would never do, though, and I'm kind of borrowing from
all of them in order for it to even make
sense in my head.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, you're frank insteining people in the world and together.
What happens is when authors a super successful you know,
somebody or maybe a family member or whatever will be like,
you stole my life, and it's like, well, maybe they did,
but what's much more likely is you're imposing your life
on that character. Having said that, when I wrote I
Give My Marriage Year, my bestie Penny was going through
(29:26):
a marriage breakup or maybe had just gone through marriage breakup,
and I dedicated that book to her. But I've made
it even so clear in my dedication that like, this
is not your story, yours has not yet been written,
like because it wasn't her story at all. It's just
I was familiar like around me, a lot of my
friends were going through these questioning periods. So it was
something that was very close to me and I could
(29:48):
understand it and touch it and feel it.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But it was nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It was nothing like my friend's lives. You know, you
have to have a line.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, your book's been published, it hit the shelves, you've
given it to your friends. Do you reread the published version,
the final version?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If it's too short?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Why would you ever?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I generally don't, But there is an exception to this,
this book when I feel because this book, I was
in such he would never I was in such a
spiral of like confidence crisis. And I remember having dinner
with Jesse and Mia not long after they'd read it
for the first time, right, and I was like, I
don't think it's any good. They were both saying really
nice things about it, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I don't think it's any good.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I think it's rubbish. I don't think I can write.
And Jesse told me read it. Go and read that book.
It's much better than you think it is. Because you
all you could see were the edits that you'd made.
I couldn't see the edit and I was looking for
the edits, and I was like, there's no mess here.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
This is an.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Incredibly like cohesive, brilliant, strong, suspenseful story and you needed
to see it beginning to end, which you hadn't.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, because when you got like proof copies that you
give to you mates, it's still got a round of
edits to go through and you have to do that
line at it. And so when I read it, I
took Jesse's advice and I read it again, but kind
of more like a reader than an author, and she
was right, it was okay. So sometimes I think we
should read our books because you know, like they live
in your mind. The experience of writing it will always
(31:11):
touch it, whether that was a happy time or a
sad time or a difficult time or whatever. All I
can say is the red of the editor. Yes, and
you know what you changed and what you didn't change.
So I think we probably should maybe go back and
read them sometimes and be like, oh, I wasn't that
too bad?
Speaker 4 (31:25):
There are so many great books that have been written,
and I don't want to spend more time with mine.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well that's true. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
On high out louders. It's Jesse here today.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
We are doing something a bit special because it's a
public holiday for some of you, and look, let's be transparent,
it's public holiday for us. Some of you will be
on your way to work to that. We are very sorry,
but we wanted to share one of our subscriber only
episodes with you as a little treat, so you can
get a taste of some of the conversations that we
have with just our subscribers. This episode is all about
(00:44):
writing books, and we had so many of you write
in with your pressing questions about how you write a book,
the editing process, procrastination, agents so much, and m Vernon
sat down with Holly and I and she just presented
all these questions. We held nothing back. We're talking about
(01:06):
how you actually turn a random idea into a book,
how you even know it's a book, the real process
of finding a publisher, and we spill on whether any
of our characters or plot lines.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Are based on real people.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I also share a golden nugget of advice I received
from the Jane Harper, yes, the author who wrote the
drive love that name drop. That completely changed how I
approach writing, and it's the advice every aspiring writer needs
to hear.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I think.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
In this episode two, I share what my current doc
of ideas for book three looks like. It's the most
mortifying thing I've ever shared. I can't believe this is
going public. We cover all kinds of conversations for our subscribers,
and this is just a small taste. If you enjoy
this peek behind the curtain, then remember that every Tuesday
and Thursday we drop these episodes. There is a link
(01:56):
in the show notes if you'd like to become a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Hello, out Louders our subscriber out Louders and vandam here
with hollywayen Wright and Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Hello today.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Now we have a special episode today because there is
a big difference between two people at this table versus
the one here and.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Has more collagen.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Two people here have written books, books, indeed, and one
of us has not.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So do you want to?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I do actually want to, But I feel like once
you say that, then you have to And yeah, you
know what receipt.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
You don't have to live slung.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, no one check in with me. So I have
a list of questions from the out louders on what
it takes to write a book, what it's like to
write our book. I feel like so many people either
want to write a book and want to know how
to write a book, and the questions are so so much.
I also have my own little questions here, so I
thought I'll put you guys on the spot.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
I reckon that this is of all the things we
get asked you reckon, this is what you get asked
about people are most interested in. And I, before I
wrote a book, was fascinated, like I had so many questions.
I remember sliding into Sally Hepworth's DMS and just asking
her one hundred things. I did a whole book club season.
I remember where I just basically sat down with my
(03:18):
favorite authors and was like, how do you write a book?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah? That was genius move on your part. That was
when I was like, yeah, she's so clever. I did
a talk at my daughter's school last week about writing,
did you? And what was interesting is that I was
looking at all these like fifteen sixteen seventeen year olds.
I said, does anybody here want to be a writer?
And everyone who was there like liked writing, That's why
they were there. But the idea of like writer as job,
(03:43):
I think is very weird, and increasingly so. It's also
because people like me will say, like, I don't actually
know it. Very many people who that's all they do,
like writer as part of a job that includes other things,
or writer as side hustle, or writer as But like
I wonder if people will even say they want to
be a writer.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
But when I was five, it was book writer. Yeah, yeah,
I didn't even know the word author. It was I
want to be a book writer.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Same, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I was actually my first question because both of If
you have worked in journalism for so long, you've written
like thousands of articles of words of words, a lot
of words, you know a lot of words. Do you
have to be a writer before you can write a book?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
I see writing as a muscle that can be strong
or can be weak. At the moment, I think my
writing muscle is really weak. And I was just saying
to my sister Claire, who's just finished a book. I
was saying to her, while it's strong, keep writing because
you can feel it go floppy and then I sit
down and I find it like trying to run and
not being able to get into a rhythm. So I
(04:44):
think that for anyone, and I've seen this people who
aren't writers, and I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Think there's such thing as people who are writers or aren't.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
But I don't think you can not read, not write,
and then sit down try and write a book.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
It's not going to work.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
I think the biggest thing if you want to get
better at writing, it's such a cliche, but you've just
got to be constantly reading and then write anything, anything.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah. And the reason that a lot of the writers
that you know, people have written books you know are
writers is because usually if you know you love writing
and words, you know that quite young, and you're probably
quite likely to try and find a job that includes
that in some way. And so obviously, you know, when
I was a little kid, I love books and I
wanted to write books. But being an author, like a
(05:25):
full time book writing author, is a very difficult thing
to achieve as a job, like as your first job,
you know what I mean. And I think probably it's
going to become more so so getting into journalism getting
into magazine writing, getting into content creation, getting into whatever
it is. It's a job that's adjacent to words. And
that's why. That's why so like lots and lots of
journalists want to be authors one day and will be
(05:47):
authors one day whatever, but they basically have chosen a
job that keeps them close to the words that they love.
I think, but Jesse's hundred percent right. If you want
to be a good writer, you've just got to read, read, read,
re read.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Okay, back to like when you first first started, for
the two of you, what came first the idea that
ended up being a book, or wanting to write a book,
and then thinking about the idea for the book later.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Mine was the idea.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I always had this idea that I wanted to write
a book before or around the age of thirty.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I don't know why.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
I just had that as some kind of deadline of like,
I think I would like to attempt it by then.
I suppose I probably had that idea at like eighteen,
thinking that thirty was really far away, and then in
my late twenties I was like, oh shit, I should
get to that, and I always knew what it was
going to be. I have no answer for how I knew.
I never looked for it, and my second book was
the same. I just knew that I had enough to
(06:43):
say that I could sit with this idea for at
least a year. But I know a lot of people
who go, I want to write a book, and then
they go searching for that, especially people who write a
book a year, and then they go searching for plot.
But I'm in the situation now where I really want
to write another book. I want to be in the
depths of it, but I cannot find the thing, and
I'm finding that very frustrating.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I think there are lots of different ways to be
a writer. We always talk books as if they're one thing,
but they're not. You know, like thinking about the difference
between a cookery book and a memoir and a novel,
and a literary novel and a dragon sex book novel.
You know, like, there are a million different ways to
be a writer, and every writer will have a different
story about how they came to be that and how
(07:27):
they then determine what they're going to write. Because obviously,
if you're writing a series, that sets you out a
nice clear path and you've got to figure that one
out right, if you've always just had it in you
to tell this one particular story, or you're a memoirist,
then obviously that's what you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
For me.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
My story's a bit different to Jesse's in that when
I was a kid, I did always want to be
a writer, and I did build a career close to
words in journalism. I think that somewhere in the middle
of all that, I lost faith or confidence that I
would ever write a book, like it just seemed like
something I didn't actually know anyone who had written books
like I was. And then in my later life when
I came to work here at Mamma Mia, and I
remember really clearly the first book launch I went to
(08:02):
for a staff member at Mama Mia who'd written a book.
I just was so excited by it. But also I
was like, oh my God, like it happens people you know,
Like it does happen you know, and there is no
getting away from it. Recognizing advantage of privilege here that
working in the media, and particularly different kinds of the
media does give you an advantage in terms of access.
(08:23):
And also people always say, can't be we can't see
the access to seeing people who've done it and how
they do it and how they approach it and all
the things. So for me, I'd always wanted to write novels.
That was always my dream, but I think it had
moved out of my reach, and then it sort of
began to seem like it was within my reach again.
And then I had a really good idea for my
first novel, which was Nomami Blogers, which was about women
(08:44):
writing online because that's what I was working in, and
I was like, this would be such a great story,
because I think that if you're a writer and you're creative,
you see stories everywhere all the time, like things happen
in the news, things happen in your office, things happen
in your family, and you go, what a great story,
What a great story? Like you're endlessly curious. It's not
a whole plot, but it's a starting point. Lots of
writers do things like they keep notes, apps or physical
(09:05):
folders or diaries where they just write ideas all the
news stories like that guy on the run in the
hills or you know, blah blah. You file them all
away and then when you're ready to tell a story,
you can like pull them out and see them so
that's how it worked for me. And then I sent
that idea off to some publishers and I said, like,
I think this could be great. I can see how
it would work. I work in this world. I know
it well, it's something I could bring to life, and
(09:27):
that's how I got started.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That's so interesting. So because you started with the Mummy
Boggers and then you went into How to Be Perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, which was a sequel, which was a sequel. That's
my other question.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
How did you know that the Mummy Bogger story wasn't finished?
But then did you feel like you ended it with
How to Be Perfectly?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Well?
Speaker 1 (09:45):
The truth of it is the thing about it, right,
People talk about it is this really mystical thing, and
in some ways it can be. But also it's a job, right,
So once you've started and you're getting paid for it.
So I got paid to write The Mummy Bloggers and
it did quite well. I didn't get paid very much,
to be clear, but I got paid to write. Then
it did quite well, and so it was like could
we write another one? And I was like yes, Like
I think these characters could definitely and I wanted to
(10:05):
write about influences and health influencers, because that was very
much much in the world. So I wrote that book
knowing that the publishers wanted it and it would publish,
But it didn't do as well as the first one.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Didn't you write that first book in like five minutes.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I didn't write it in five minutes, but I wrote
most of it. I took a month off work over Christmas,
like January, and I wrote most of it in six weeks.
Not the whole thing. WHOA six weeks?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, most of it you'd planned.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I've planned it, and I'd written parts of it, but
then I broke the back of it in six weeks.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And Jesse, you've written fiction and nonfiction. What did you
find the most difficult transition between the both and did
you find one harder than the other?
Speaker 4 (10:50):
I found my second book easier, but I don't know
if that's because it's fiction or because it was my
second book. I remember Jane Harper saying to me, it
gets easier, like every single time you write a book,
it actually does get easier. Does I dispute this fact, Well,
I think that it depends what you're writing.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Back For me, it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Get any And this is my theory. About why. I
Holly thinks that is.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
That when you go into a completely different zone and
challenge yourself in a new way, I think then you
fill out of your depth again. Like the sign of
professional growth is constantly feeling out of your depth. And
Holly's done that. Every single book has been like this
ambitious feat of like I'm going to further myself, whereas
if you were going to write, and some people do this,
(11:32):
there's almost something formulation. I don't think Jane is that,
but I think that there are some people who it's
really clever to kind of go, I'm going to write that.
But I definitely found the second book easier. But with
both I felt like impostery because I didn't know how
to do it. And I've told lots of people who
have DMed me about book stuff that I did a
course called Unlocking Creativity, which is an online course that
(11:56):
anyone can do. I think it's four weeks and it
just teaches you, like I couldn't write a scene. I
didn't know how to imagine something and write it down.
So I did that course and then the same one.
I'll put it in the show notes, but my sister
did the one about I think writing a whole manuscript
in nine months something like that, and it holds your
hand to do it because there is a science to it,
(12:17):
like there is a way that you can do it,
and if you're finding that stuff hard, then there are
courses that will help you achieve it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
When it comes to writer's block, how do you get
over it? And also where does writer's block usually appear
in your writing journey?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I definitely have struggled with writer's block, because I think
she was just saying how she thinks writing books gets easier,
Like for me, I've written five books and I still
don't think I know how to do it. Like when
people ask me how you do it, I'm genuinely stumped.
I'm like, I don't know, Like I don't know how
you do it, except that you just do it, like
as in, you have to have the discipline. And I
(12:54):
know it's such a cliche, but you do have to
have the discipline to just sit down and do it.
There's a myth that like, oh, if I only had
to do that, I would write eight hours a day
as if it was my job. And most writers would
never do that, you know, even writers who that is
their job. Two hours is a pretty good stint of
like full on creative focus. But writing a lot of
writing happens before the writing thinking. Like for me, a
(13:17):
lot of ideas do come while you're writing, but you're
thinking about the plot all the time, thinking about the characters,
what's going to happen to day. So when I get blocked,
the only way through it is to write. Write anything,
Just write anything. And what I often do is I'll
go in my little shed when it's a writing day
and I know I've got a certain amount of words
I've got to get done, and if I'm not feeling
it is I'll sit in my chair. I have a
small bookshelf in my office. I've got like lots of
(13:40):
books in my house, but that's got a certain number
of books that I particularly love on there. Jesse's books
are on there, and I will grab one and open
it like almost randomly and read a few pages or
chapters to kind of let the words get in there.
And you, I don't know, it's almost like the rhythm
hits you like me Isaac playing, You.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Know, Yeah, I forget what a sentence looks like? Yeah,
I go, wait, how does a sentence start?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
What are some amazing pieces of dial not to steal them,
but to like get you back in the zone, or
like the brilliant first paragraphs, or I do generally write chronologically.
Not everybody does. I know lots of people who write
the end before the beginning. I'm just not that smart.
You don't do that. God, No, Like I have a
plan and know what's going to happen, but I literally
write the thing from front to back. So I've learned,
(14:26):
particularly with Hewould Never, which is my most recent and
most complicated book. Obviously there was a plan and like
there's a chapter by chapter plan by the end, but
I write it in chronological order, like I couldn't. I
couldn't do it otherwise, but in kind of. But not
everybody does. I know lots of people who write the
last chapter before the first chapter. My head would fall off.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So when you actually get a book deal and you
signed with the publisher, did they also know that like
story arc?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, there's actually different answers to this question, right, because
there are lots of different ways to get a book deal.
You can get a book deal on a whole written manuscript.
You know, that's the classic route, which is that you
send your manuscript off written to lots of publishers and
they accept or reject publishing gossips.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
You get more money that way.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
If you've got a finished manuscript. It's like, that's the
advice that I've heard is like, finish it and you'll
get more money if it's really good.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, because that's when people bid and all that kind
of stuff. Oh, but if you get commissioned to write
a book, which is obviously a safer bet in terms
of you know you're going to get paid to write
this book, you will either get it on a proposal,
which will be like a several page, you know, outline
of the book with a certain amount of detail, maybe
a couple of chapters on spec as well, maybe a
full story outline, but not necessarily Like with I Give
(15:40):
My Marriage a Year, I did not give a full
story outline. I gave a proposal, so the premise and
obviously an outline in the first few chapters. And then
I remember very confidently my having a meeting with my
publisher like halfway through, and she'd been reading it as
I went, because I was sending her chapters as I went,
which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. It depends,
and she was like, I just need to know if
they're going to stay together. And she was like, you know,
(16:02):
don't you? And I was like, yep, I know. I
didn't fucking know. I didn't start that book knowing whether
or not they were going to stay together. I was like,
it sort of came to me as I went. But
then again with he would Never, which is so complicated,
that sort of pantsing as they call it, just wasn't
going to work. And actually when it came back to
me after I did the first draft, I had to
rewrite the second half because it wasn't cohesive enough. And
(16:24):
at that point I did a really really thorough like
chapter by chapter by a bit breakdown and stuck to that.
But before that I'd been much more of a panther.
So I also think it can change, like how you
write a book can change. I don't know what you
think to do.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, I don't think I had the ending very clearly.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I had a pitch, but I would say that if
you've got a picture, even if you have a manuscript.
The thing that I reckon holds people back the most
is holding on to their idare their pitch their work
too tightly I don't know anyone who isn't thrown feedback
that you might go, oh really, and you know, sometimes
(17:03):
you know what's worth fighting for. But a book is
a group project. And like the people who I see
really coming up against lots of walls and barriers, it's
like you've got to take on some feedback, you've got
to take on some edits, you've got to rewrite it.
You've got to rewrite the If people aren't picking up
the proposal and you want to get a book published,
then write a new proposal. I think that you've kind
(17:23):
of got to be a little bit more mariable.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And you also have to remember that if you are
going the classic route of sending on spec got a
great idea for a book, and that you will have
heard published to talk about the slush pile, which is
like a pile of manuscripts or proposals that people have
to read through. You have got to grab them in
the first couple of paragraphs, just like you would in
any other kind of writing. So if you're going that way,
pour your heart into that proposal, make it sound amazing.
(17:46):
And publishers will often say, and I find this disheartening,
but it's true, tell me what kind of book this is?
Like this is exactly like, oh, this is a bit
like heartsick meets blah blah. You know, like, tell me
what kind of book this is a bit like Akata,
This is a bit like blah. And although I kind
of find that dispiriting because all of us authors like
to think we're writing something terribly original, and there's just
(18:07):
not really anything like that out there right now. It's
business now more than the ever. Books are incredibly hard
to sell, and so they need to know that you
understand that you're not just writing this book for you
and your career. I mean, this is if you want
to be a published author, not if you want to
write for your pleasure, but that you know who you're
writing it for and you can see an audience for it.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
And be really clear. Don't say it's for everyone. No
book is for everyone. You've got to be really clear
about your demographic and who it's for.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
And on that.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
People who say how do I get my book published?
I always tell them two things. The first is competitions.
That's a big one. There's like New South Wales Victoria
Jane Harper won a competition that's like submit all the time.
You've got to have people read it. And the second
thing is that they often have like open for submissions,
Like certain publishers will do it where they'll go we're
looking for a crime book, We're looking for a blah.
(18:56):
Follow them all on Instagram because I see them pop up,
and I often like tag friends, and I'm like, hand
it along. I know before we were saying, you know,
you get one shot and edit it. I know people
who have written books that haven't shown anyone, and I'm
just like, you got to show someone, Like at some point,
you've got to let it out into the world. No
one I know finishes a book, finishes a proposal and goes,
(19:16):
this is a masterpiece. No, I hate everything I've written.
I would never open a page of it and look
at it. But at some point, you've just got a
trust that you've done the work and that you deserve
to have people read it.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
How did you know when you landed on the right
concept or plot? And also where in your life do
you find your ideas?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Okay, Holly, I want you to answer that question, and
then what I'm going to do is I'm going to
read some of my notes from my book three ideas
document because they are hilarious, Like you're.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Just going some of them, they're going to be amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
No, no, no, they're just words like dementia, aging.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
As I said before, I think if you are somebody
who sees stories, if you're a creative person, you see
them all over the place. So I get a lot
of my ideas from my real life, from the news cycle,
from the women in the world, and with my and
my friendship group, my workmates, all those things. And you know,
we're in a very fortunate position at MoMA MIA in
that we basically talk to Australian women all day every day,
(20:19):
and we hear their stories and we know what's interests
them and what's keeping them up at night and what's
making them happy and all those things. So I think
we're in a very privileged position to be able to
tap into that. But then you need every book needs
a device, right, it needs an overarching plot point that
you can sell to somebody.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
And Elevator ten seconds are so hard at that. I mean,
I'm so bad at that rather, so I find that
so difficult. But I literally keep a sort of file
of ideas, just like Jesse's about to show us on
a phone where you're like, that's something and that's something.
And what usually happens is they'll be like that's something
and that's something, and then you like mush them together
(20:55):
and they turn into something, you know what I mean.
Like it's you're like getting all these little gems and
putting them in your bag and then an idea will
come out. But having said that, I am, and I've
said that I get I'm better at planning and plotting
because they say there are plotters and there are parents,
and the idea is that plotters know exactly what they're
gonna write and how they're going to write it, and
pantss kind of go as they go. I think instinctively,
(21:15):
I'm much more of a panther because very often when
I'm writing and I'm in the story, suddenly you'll be like, yes,
this needs to happen. Oh my god, this guy isn't
who I thought he was. This woman is like more
like this, and that's more like that, And so this
story also changes as you're writing, and then something might
happen in the world and you're like that would be
good to throw in or whatever that kind of stuff.
This is so embarrassing I would not let anyone in
(21:37):
my life open this document is the worst thing I've
ever seen. Okay, So at the top, I've just got tone,
like what tone I should do? Confident?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh yeah, I like that dystopian. Ooh, I've got.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Then I've got teenage girl question mark. I watched Adolescents and.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Adolescence.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
But a girl a book about what it is to
age and about what it is to die?
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Would you read that? I don't know what it's about.
Then I've got yes. So what a person goes to
a place we cannot follow? Top point?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I love this.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
This is so like my list the visitors. I don't
know who the visitors are.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Top point?
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Good title summer holiday. Oh, top point, I've just got
around in July.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Everybody in publishing want July. Now that book was one
of those books that just genuinely original changes.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Okay, I've written a book with no idea. A house,
a visitor, he goes upstairs, something something old man. His
door is wide open. The house has been ransacked. But
what is missing? I'm going to die?
Speaker 3 (22:47):
This is like, I love it. Document. This is so bad.
That's where I'm at, and I don't know what any
of that is trying to say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I have lis like that on my phone about titles.
Book titles are really hard.
Speaker 4 (23:02):
I find I always think I've got the title, realize
it's terrible, slash, get told it's terrible because it is.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
And then terrible.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I have whiteboards, books, everything, and I'm like, it needs
to be like a saying, like a cliche yourself, and
I just can never really, I think you had I
give my marriage a year.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
You had that.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, that's I think that. Actually the title. If you
can nail the title, Lily, it's a good sign for
the book.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
And yeah, most people I know change it last week.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, really, I thought Heartsick was an excellent Oh.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Oh I hated that time.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
Yeah, and then it was like it we had so
many different versions of it, and what did I I
want you to call it something.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Because heartbreak, heartache, like they're all words.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I wanted a new words for it, and I had
something else. And then I want I want them to
the cover to be really sophisticated, and I like, did
these drawings and they were so bad and they just
we just went back and forth and argued about it,
but they were ultimately right.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Of course, Okay, have you ever lied to your publisher
on how far you really are.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
With your book? Do you tell you? Every single time?
They know, they do know, And unfortunately for Jesse and
I in particular, we have the same publisher actually, well
the same publishing house. They listen to those shows, so
it's like.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
My worship of the week is I haven't started my book.
And then you get a message.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And it's like, how are you going? You're like great,
doing so well?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yes I do. I often lie. They're like how's it going.
I'm like, it's going great. Do you think you're on track? Definitely?
And then I'm like, ah, Like a lot of writing
to deadline is fear and panic, no question about it.
I think guilt and shame helped fear and panic. Guilt
and shame. This is sounding good, isn't it great?
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah, Self hatred will get you to the point where
you're like, I can't let anyone else down, and then
you write in that space, which is really healthy. I've
definitely lied, although I've I have to tell myself and
I don't think this is true that if I miss
the deadline I have to give them money back, Like
I have some kind of view around that and I've
been so diligent with my deadlines. I think it's just
(25:05):
I don't want this book to be unfinished at this
point or way. So I tried to be really really
good with that, and I go through stages of panic
where I go, you've only got this many months left
and you've written these many words, And then I go,
so I don't write every day. I'm not that person
that's really disciplined.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Every day. I lean in and out and in and
out and just.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Say boss over. The problem is because we've worked with
deadlines forever. Deadlines motivate me. If if my deadline isn't looming,
I'm like, you know, looking at my nail, Homer Simpsons
Carousel going in my head, and then as the deadline
comes into view and you're like, oh, now you'll do it. Adrenaline,
definitely adrenaline. But also book deadlines are long, as in
(25:45):
you hand it in and it doesn't get published for
like a year. And for the likes of us who
record a show in the morning and it goes out
in the afternoon, or you ride a post and it
goes up straight away, like, I'm always like, why do
you need so long? Yes, I'm always tried to like
a movie. I always trying to push that a bit.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I'm like, do you really need or do you need
it on a Friday when you're not even gonna worate
it till month?
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Thinks that's always me. I'm like, no Friday deadlines, Like
Friday deadlines are bullshit. I'm going to give it you
on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Well, both of you said, most writers, like yourselves don't
write books full time, Like you have a full time
job before you started writing books, How did you plan
that next stage of your life to look like, including
writing books, and how do you structure your days and
you also have a full time job.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It does not get written without planning.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Like if you think you're just going to find time
to sit down and write eighty thousand words, you're just not.
Like you've got a forge out time like Trent Dalton
told me he did eight till ten every night. Other
people do like a Saturday morning every week, or like
you've got to have a time when you're committed to
it and with heart sick. I remember, I think I
(26:51):
took a week off work to really focus on it,
and that was during COVID, So actually I had more
time than most would have.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I do stop watch for nearly everything.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
I go, all right, we're going to do like thirty minutes,
and then often by the time I check my phone
it's been forty two. And then I feel satisfied, and
then I kind of do it like that. But it's
got to be planned.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
It's same. I wrote the Mommy Bloggers at night because
I was obviously working full time, and I did it
between eight and ten like Trent, until I took that
month off. The annoying thing about my children is now
they don't go to bed at that time, so that's
now it's harder. So but now obviously I try and
get my mom and Mia work done early in the week,
and I try and write on Thursdays and Fridays and
Saturdays and Sundays. But it doesn't always get that neat,
(27:30):
But that's the idea.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
How did you tell friends about whether they influenced any
characters in your book?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
My experiences is that all your friends think they're in
your books. Everybody thinks it's like the Carl Simon song.
Everybody thinks that the book is about them, right, So
a lot of my friends, obviously with he would never
it's I've said lots of times that I do go
on camping with a group of friends once a year, families,
and that's the story of the book. So that's obviously
and everyone's like, are they in it? And my friends
(27:59):
themselves were like, AHI in it, and they were really nervous.
And I took all the books, the first editions of
the books to the camping trip because time aligned, and
handed them out, and the girls were and the men
were all like grabbing them and flicking through them looking
for themselves. But they're not in it. It's not that
like people think it's like that, but it's not like that.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I find that the thing you actually have to do
is say you are going to read about this character.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
They're not you.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
They're not and they really really aren't. And there are
some things where I've gone, oh, that would really hurt
that person if they thought that was kind of based
on you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And you might take things that have happened to people
in your lives and put them in your books in
a way, but it's not like the whole point of fiction.
And this is what I say to people all the time.
It is like, of course it's inspired by my life
and people I know, But I'm not writing about you.
I would never like. There are some amazing plots in
my friend groups that like, as I'm sure with all
of us that you're like, somebody should write that, but
(28:51):
I can't.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I find that in smushing things together, like this
will be something my friend said and then something he
would never do, though, and I'm kind of borrowing from
all of them in order for it to even make
sense in my head.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, you're frank insteining people in the world and together.
What happens is when authors a super successful you know,
somebody or maybe a family member or whatever will be like,
you stole my life, and it's like, well, maybe they did,
but what's much more likely is you're imposing your life
on that character. Having said that, when I wrote I
Give My Marriage Year, my bestie Penny was going through
(29:26):
a marriage breakup or maybe had just gone through marriage breakup,
and I dedicated that book to her. But I've made
it even so clear in my dedication that like, this
is not your story, yours has not yet been written,
like because it wasn't her story at all. It's just
I was familiar like around me, a lot of my
friends were going through these questioning periods. So it was
something that was very close to me and I could
(29:48):
understand it and touch it and feel it.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But it was nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
It was nothing like my friend's lives. You know, you
have to have a line.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, your book's been published, it hit the shelves, you've
given it to your friends. Do you reread the published version,
the final version?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If it's too short?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Why would you ever?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I generally don't, But there is an exception to this,
this book when I feel because this book, I was
in such he would never I was in such a
spiral of like confidence crisis. And I remember having dinner
with Jesse and Mia not long after they'd read it
for the first time, right, and I was like, I
don't think it's any good. They were both saying really
nice things about it, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I don't think it's any good.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I think it's rubbish. I don't think I can write.
And Jesse told me read it. Go and read that book.
It's much better than you think it is. Because you
all you could see were the edits that you'd made.
I couldn't see the edit and I was looking for
the edits, and I was like, there's no mess here.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
This is an.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Incredibly like cohesive, brilliant, strong, suspenseful story and you needed
to see it beginning to end, which you hadn't.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, because when you got like proof copies that you
give to you mates, it's still got a round of
edits to go through and you have to do that
line at it. And so when I read it, I
took Jesse's advice and I read it again, but kind
of more like a reader than an author, and she
was right, it was okay. So sometimes I think we
should read our books because you know, like they live
in your mind. The experience of writing it will always
(31:11):
touch it, whether that was a happy time or a
sad time or a difficult time or whatever. All I
can say is the red of the editor. Yes, and
you know what you changed and what you didn't change.
So I think we probably should maybe go back and
read them sometimes and be like, oh, I wasn't that
too bad?
Speaker 4 (31:25):
There are so many great books that have been written,
and I don't want to spend more time with mine.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well that's true. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description.
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