January 1, 2026 • 19 mins
Flirting with strangers, batting eyelashes, smiling demurely — the joy of being single. But what about when you're in a relationship? For some people, the desire to flirt never goes away. But is that wrong or is it just a step in a non-monogamous direction?
We just had to bring this juicy episode out from behind the paywall as a little treat to start off the new year in style so settle in Outlouders and enjoy.
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What to read:
- 'I'm a self-professed pro.' An ex-bartender's 8 tricks for mastering the art of flirting.
- 'How "battery boys" saved my committed relationship.'
- 'A male gyno told me I was beautiful.' The problem with being a friendly woman.
- What is an Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM) relationship and why am I seeing it everywhere?
- Does ADHD make monogamy harder?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hi, I am Jesse Stevens, and this summer we've curated
your out Loud playlist. We are bringing you some of
our favorite subscriber episodes so that you have lots to
listen to. Today's episode is about flirting and the fact
that for some people, the desire to flirt never really
goes away, even if you're in a long term monogamous relationship.
(00:39):
We unpack whether it's ever okay to flirt with other
people or if that is crossing the line. We hope
you enjoy. I have two very, very thorny dilemmas that
I have brought you both today. It's a special day
because I am here with you. Emily Verner, Hello, and
(01:02):
who are you over there?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Live from my hometown of Adelaide today. Oh, I'm Claire Murphy.
Nice to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So you've got some fresh minds, I've got some wise geniuses.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Oh, I'm excited and anyone down yep.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I've got some issues that in fact are also kind
of relevant to my own life that I would like
to work through with you both that I've come across.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So the first is.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
There is an advice column in Bustle, and recently a
reader posed this question. She wrote, when I'm in a
long term relationship, I find myself still wanting to flirt
heavily with other people. I ended my relationship a few
months ago because of other issues, and I never cheated,
but I don't think I was as loyal as I
(01:44):
should have been. I discussed this issue with my partner
during the relationship, but they understandably were not open to
flirshing with other people or slightly opening up our relationship.
Do you think that in the right relationship, I could
be one hundred percent monogamous or do you think I
can only be in an open relationship? How do I
(02:05):
know if I'm non monogamous? I was interested because Claire,
you're in a long term relationship and M you're currently single.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Currently, let's start with the end of the spectrum perfectly,
Let's start with you, M.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I want to know if you think it is ever
okay to flirt in a relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Flirting can be quite confusing to me as a single person,
because I sometimes struggle, and I think a lot of
people have different definitions of flirting versus just being friendly. Yes,
and personally, I think I come across, and this is
going to sound so problematic, I come across as quite
(02:42):
flirtatious with my guy friends in relationships than they do
with single guys.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I know a lot of people like this.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Why do you think that is.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think it's.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Because so let's take Luca for example, because we're friends.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Your husband.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
But I think it's the fact that when a man's
in a relationship, you know he's safe, so you can
be completely yourself around him and signals won't get mixed.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I feel the same.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, it's not like malicious. It's not like I'm
trying to steal your husband. But it's more like I
feel like I can be exactly how I want to
be with him. I can like push him around, I
can be friendly, I can hug him, we can laugh
in bad But every time I do that with a
single man who I'm not interested in, I'm way more
reserved because I don't want him to get the wrong signal.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So what do you think then, when you've been in
a relationship, have you had circumstances where you have been
in a situation and considered flirting with someone or thought, oh,
I think I might be flirting right now or seeing
them flot.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I've been in a situation where I've been in a
relationship and I was talking to a guy at a
bar and really quickly it looked like I was coming
across a single and he was taking that on and
he was flirting, and I was like, oh my god,
I've just been flirting with this man who thinks I'm
signal and I pulled it back straight away, which I
(04:04):
feel like is the bit of a red flag for
me in this dilemma. It's the wanting to flirt. I
think it's the desire to flirt with other people rather
than just being a flirty person. That's a bit of
a red flag.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Claire, you've been a relationship. How long have you been
with your partner? Actually twenty three years?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Whoa twenty five? It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Oh I know, I was gonna say, you just celebrated
your twenty first birthday. I don't know how that's people
I know. Have you had moments where you've kind of
wanted to have a little little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Of a flat Oh, hell yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think it's human nature to want to feel appreciated
by the people around you, whether they're male, or female.
I've flirted with women as well as flirted with men
in my time that I've been with my husband, But
I struggle with an issue with the fact that I'm
just a very naturally super curious person. I like to
ask people a lot of questions. I like to find
out who they are. I'm very into whatever it is
(04:54):
they're telling me, and that is often misconstrued as being
flirtatious as well, especially from men in particular.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Women not so much.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
But I find flirting the best way to really get
to know people.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It opens them up.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
A little bit more, maybe relaxes I'm a little bit
into the conversation. But then you do cross the line
sometimes with people who misunderstand that you're flirting is coming
from like a sexualized place that you want to have
some kind of physical relationship with them. My husband, on
the other hand, is a very black and white guy.
He does not flirt with other women, does not want
to send out the wrong signal, and therefore he's like
(05:27):
one hundred.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Percent does not do so.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
He struggled a little bit with my personality to start with,
because it looks like I'm flirting with every Tom, Dick
and Harry that comes past me when realistically that's just
who I am as a person. I'm very chatty. But
I think your right and in that the desire to
flirt with somebody obviously means that you're not getting something
from your partner that you're looking for in someone else.
And so if they're not delivering that for you, or
(05:49):
maybe it's a case that one person can't deliver that
for you, that maybe being non monogamous is something that
you can explore because maybe one person can't give you
all the needs that you have, And so it depends
on your partner's perspective I'm flirting and how open they
are to you, just understanding that it's just flirting and
nothing more, and whether you feel like any one person
(06:09):
can deliver you the desires that you have and the
needs that you have in a relationship.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Jessee, what are the telltale signs that someone is flirting
versus just being super interested in someone?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I looked this up right because I needed a definition here,
because I went, I'm sure I flirt all the time,
and sometimes I kind of know I'm doing it because
I think when you've been in a long term relationship,
the tap of being attracted to people doesn't turn off
like you're human. Of course, sometimes you're attracted to someone
and you're like, oh, I'm going to talk to this
person more because they're attractive, whether that's physically or charismatic
(06:41):
or whatever it is. And it's said that flirting it
involves verbal and nonverbal behaviors that signal interest or attraction
toward another person. I'm like, tick, I definitely do that.
But then there was another that said to behave as
though you are sexually attracted to someone, so it's playful
rather than with serious intentions. But the sexual attraction seems
(07:02):
to be an undercurrent. But what you were just saying, Claire,
and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but you were saying,
are you flirting because you're not getting something satisfied in
your relationship? I think you're right, and that thing that's
not being satisfied is the act of flirting. Because at
some stage the flirting stops the like playfulness.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
When does the stars The compliments also stop a little
bit too, wah become used to your partner. You're not
going to say, I mean, there are some people that
do maintain it, but like I know with my part
I don't wake up every day and go, oh my god,
you're the most handsome man.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I've ever seen in my life. Like it just point
over time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, you know, I think a lot of flirting and
courting and that playfulness comes from what people don't know
about you. So there's something very fun about being in
a social situation and getting to present a part of
yourself that's manufactured. And unfortunately, in a long term relationship,
the beauty and the ugliness of long term monogamy is
(08:02):
that they will call you on your bullshit. Like I
remember I had a friend who saw a therapist for
a while who said that when she was dating and
having casual sex with people, she felt like the sex
and the flirting was so much fun because she was
in total control of what she was putting forward. Like
in the bedroom she could be a character and she
(08:23):
felt really in control. And then she was with this person,
She's like, it's not as good, and they were like, yeah,
because he sees you, sees you for all that you are,
and that stops being sexy and it stops being totally
It can be playful in.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
A different way.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I think you can triumph, but like, come on, you
can't kind of go up and like.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Whip each other in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It's just so really hard to be flirtatious with someone
who's also seen you, i don't know, throw up plenty
of times, or like saw an entire human.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Come out of you vagina.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Like things shift and flirting feels a bit too weird.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It feels fake, right, But I do think that there's
an element of flirting that you've got to be realistic.
And Luca and I have talked about this. It's like
the sexual attraction tap doesn't turn off. We have understandings
about like where the line is. Like if you know,
he was sitting in a bar kind of cuddling up
to someone, obviously that's weird.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But if he wants to.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Go and have a chat to someone who finds attractive,
like that's not against the law, Like that's totally fine.
So I think that it's probably about trust, about respect
and not doing it in front of someone, and also
like not crossing the line also too.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Can I just say one thing, Yes, it does fade
a little bit in a long term relationship, but in
my experience it gradually comes back over time. Really, you
actually really become so very secure and happy and safe
in your relationship. When you feel like you can do
and say whatever the hell you want, you can go
from being like a total dickhead and acting like, you know,
(09:51):
really stupid together and laughing, and then you can like
turn it on and be like hey, babe, like once
you feel super safe and secure and happy. And I
think for me that came after having a kid and
understanding like how that really cemented our relationship. It does
come back in increments.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I think, Oh, Claire, okay, I'm going on a first date.
Can I have some flirting tips?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Please? Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I live vicariously through inverteb all the time. She knows
this literally when it comes to men, if you're dating
a man, he just wants to talk about himself and
maybe his job or his car or something like just
don't get into conversations. I don't know about Joe Rogan
or Trump or something, but he really just wants to
talk about himself. And there is something about giving a
man a compliment because it doesn't happen to them very often.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
They don't get compliments.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
No, true, poor men with women like you look so beautiful,
and then when I say, like I really like your
shirt to like one of my guy friends. He's like
that means so much to me.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and they do like double tach like thank you
does not happen enough at it?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Okay, compliment him, got it, I love it. We'll report back,
all right.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
This is the second question that we have, and it
was actually from an article in The Guardian. It was
written into columnist Eleanor Gordon Smith and this could have
been taken from my mouthist limit. It's not about my sister.
It's about other people in my life. And I literally
had this conversation on the weekend and everyone at the
table had one person in their life that they went
(11:17):
this person exists, and I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
To do about them, right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So this Rita wrote in and she was talking about
her sister, who she says she loves dearly. They are
just very different, she said of her sister. For the
last ten years, three issues have been bothering her, her weight,
her marriage, and her dissatisfaction with her job, but she
does nothing about any of them. I tried to help
her in many different ways, direct advice. She gets offended.
Then I tried tiptoeing around her for each suggestion. She
(11:42):
always has an excuse why it won't work. Additionally, she
often has a victim complex, as if things are just
happening to her and she has no personal agency. I
was wondering, what can I do? What other approaches can
I try so that I can help my sister while
still being supportive and letting her do things in her
own time and way. It hurts to see her stuck
(12:02):
in the life. Do you two have people in your
life that you see as stuck and you fantasize about
getting them by the shoulders, telling them exactly what I
need to do, and then they do it and their
life improves.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, it's so hard, hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And what do you think is the answer? How do
we fix it? How do we not fix it?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Claire? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Look, Jesse Stevens, you would know this probably better than
most of us. But the relationship you have with a sister,
I mean, we all have sisters, right, so we understand
what a unique relationship that is.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And so you can push.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That relationship pretty damn far, knowing that it will bounce
back again eventually. And like my sister and I have
had some barnies literally about something very similar to this,
And there was a point where she stopped talking to
me for a couple of weeks, and it took that
real moment of us not talking and me not giving
in because this is the bad thing. We enable our
(12:53):
sisters all the time, as they enable us because they
know us so well, and they will let us get
away with everything.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Eventually, if it is that bad and.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
They literally have not made enough of an effort to
help themselves, you have to draw the line. You've got
to put your foot down, and you've got an back down,
and you've got to say, look, until you saw your
shit out in this area, I don't want to talk
about it anymore. Or something I've said to my sister
which made her super angry. I'm not going to tell
you what you want to hear from me today. This
is not going to happen. She got super mad, stopped
(13:21):
talking to me. Eventually, she rang me in tears one
day and I said to her again, if you're calling
for me to tell you that I'm responsible for all
the things that have happened in your life and it's
you know, not you. She said to me, I don't
know why I keep doing this, And it was his
first moment that she I think had realized that I
wasn't going to give her what she wanted because I'm
her enabler, and she finally sort of started I'm not
(13:44):
saying it was a miracle cure for everything, and she
all of a sudden changed her entire life and was
good again. Like she still struggles with some things as
do I, but she really, I think was the moment
where I didn't give it to her and she finally
went She's not going to enable me, who else is
going to? And she finally started to look at it
in a place of self reflection.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Yeah, that's so interesting because I kind of had a
similar response when I have to deal with and I
am going to use like my sister as an example,
even though I guess we're fine now, it's not like
my stress to take on. And when I reread this dilemma,
it was really interesting because her sister hasn't actually asked
her for advice or asked her for help. She's taking
(14:24):
it upon herself. And I want to know the demographics
of them as well, because I feel like this is
so particular for an older sister to do, because that's
exactly what I do with my sister. And there's a
pretty big age gap, fairly big. It's like six years
between us. And I've always been in the position where
it's my responsibility to make sure she has the best
(14:44):
life possible because that's what my parents got to do
for me, and I feel like now it's my turn
to do it for her. And my sister and I
are so different, like we're completely different people. She's absolutely
fine in her life. The thing is that she just
has a very different life to me. It's confusing for
me to not see her and be like, why don't
you want to do what I'm doing?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And I see that in myself, like I can feel
a bit controlling sometimes where I go when I've laid
in bed, and this is often the thing when I
can't sleep, I think about other people's lives and fixing
them right. And I was in the spiral the other
night and I just thought, what would they say to you, though,
Like if you're sitting there going I want to wave
my finger and tell you how to live your life,
(15:26):
they could probably grab me and go I think that
you're making some wrong moves, Like we would all think
that about each other's lives. But what this points to
is when you are in a very close relationship with
someone who is unhappy and who could do something to
fix it. And what do you do when you are
just the person who is listening, who is like taking
(15:46):
it all, taking it all on about the sadness, and
you go, well, maybe you could quit your job, maybe
you could leave that relationship. Maybe, and it just goes
on and on, and the victim complex. There are some
people who that's like a theme throughout their lives. And
what complicates it too is that that is also a
feature of serious mental illness. It can be a symptom
(16:09):
of depression to have that learned helplessness, that victim complex.
Everything happens to me, everything is hard. And then people say,
you know, you should talk about mental health and other
people can help you. I don't know how you how
you can because you can't fix someone else's life for them.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
But you can also fight back in a way that
you be the negative one. And this is something I
found works in several circumstances, this one in particular. So
I had a friend who was very similar to this,
who was constantly telling me about all the things, and
it did not matter what I said to her.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
She always had a response to it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
If my advice was well, why don't you leave your husband,
She's like, well, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I want to work on my marriage.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
And so, like every single thing had a rebuttal, and
I remember one day I just said to her, well,
I don't know, maybe we should just give up.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Let's just give up.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
And not even worry about anything anymore and just like
to hell with it. And she was like, wait, what, No,
And then she was like no, but like I love him,
and I'm like, we'll do you because it doesn't like
you love like I started to become like the full
negative Nancy, and so she had to kind of counteract
that with some positivity because she didn't want to feel
like my entire life is shit. So like I think
sometimes if you're reverse the roles and give them a
(17:19):
bit of perspective from the other side, maybe that works too.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
That's actually really close to what the advice Columba said,
which is they often don't want you to fix it,
and you can't anyway. We all know that we offer
solutions and they don't act on them, and then you
start feeling resentful. She said, you can ask them, do
you want things to feel different and then just start
there because if they go, oh, yes, then you can
(17:44):
kind of go all right, let's talk about how we
might have things feel different. But the reality is that
you go, I don't actually know if you want things
to feel different because you're stuck in this loop and
you're kind of just dragging me down with you.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And some people like to live in the drama. Let's
be honest, we've all been there, you know, when your
life is like complete another turmoil and you just want
to tell everyone about it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Like I've absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Been that with terrible bosses or horrible boyfriends, Like you
just want to tell everyone how terrible things are for you.
And they don't necessarily need a solution because you know
that eventually you'll leave that guy or quit that job,
but as of today, you just want to kind of
tell everyone how shit it is, you know. And the
solution can also feel dismissive sometimes like people aren't listening
(18:24):
and like not like they're blaming you. But I've definitely
felt that where it's kind of like, well, why don't
you do this? And I've gone, hang on, can we
sit in the pain from it?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I mean, and having someone listen and creating space to
actually have that. I mean that in itself can be
helpful to just let that sit because a lot of
people don't even have someone that they can talk to.
I think the issue is when it becomes this dynamic
that just is starting to really take a toll on you.
So I liked that line. I think I'm going to
(18:52):
use it. Do you want things to feel different? And
if you're looking for more to listen to? Every mom
of mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
something for everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
There's a link in our show notes.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of January.
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
You're listening to I'MM with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hi, I am Jesse Stevens, and this summer we've curated
your out Loud playlist. We are bringing you some of
our favorite subscriber episodes so that you have lots to
listen to. Today's episode is about flirting and the fact
that for some people, the desire to flirt never really
goes away, even if you're in a long term monogamous relationship.
(00:39):
We unpack whether it's ever okay to flirt with other
people or if that is crossing the line. We hope
you enjoy. I have two very, very thorny dilemmas that
I have brought you both today. It's a special day
because I am here with you. Emily Verner, Hello, and
(01:02):
who are you over there?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Live from my hometown of Adelaide today. Oh, I'm Claire Murphy.
Nice to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So you've got some fresh minds, I've got some wise geniuses.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Oh, I'm excited and anyone down yep.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I've got some issues that in fact are also kind
of relevant to my own life that I would like
to work through with you both that I've come across.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So the first is.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
There is an advice column in Bustle, and recently a
reader posed this question. She wrote, when I'm in a
long term relationship, I find myself still wanting to flirt
heavily with other people. I ended my relationship a few
months ago because of other issues, and I never cheated,
but I don't think I was as loyal as I
(01:44):
should have been. I discussed this issue with my partner
during the relationship, but they understandably were not open to
flirshing with other people or slightly opening up our relationship.
Do you think that in the right relationship, I could
be one hundred percent monogamous or do you think I
can only be in an open relationship? How do I
(02:05):
know if I'm non monogamous? I was interested because Claire,
you're in a long term relationship and M you're currently single.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Currently, let's start with the end of the spectrum perfectly,
Let's start with you, M.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I want to know if you think it is ever
okay to flirt in a relationship.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Flirting can be quite confusing to me as a single person,
because I sometimes struggle, and I think a lot of
people have different definitions of flirting versus just being friendly. Yes,
and personally, I think I come across, and this is
going to sound so problematic, I come across as quite
(02:42):
flirtatious with my guy friends in relationships than they do
with single guys.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I know a lot of people like this.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Why do you think that is.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think it's.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Because so let's take Luca for example, because we're friends.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Your husband.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
But I think it's the fact that when a man's
in a relationship, you know he's safe, so you can
be completely yourself around him and signals won't get mixed.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I feel the same.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah, it's not like malicious. It's not like I'm
trying to steal your husband. But it's more like I
feel like I can be exactly how I want to
be with him. I can like push him around, I
can be friendly, I can hug him, we can laugh
in bad But every time I do that with a
single man who I'm not interested in, I'm way more
reserved because I don't want him to get the wrong signal.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So what do you think then, when you've been in
a relationship, have you had circumstances where you have been
in a situation and considered flirting with someone or thought, oh,
I think I might be flirting right now or seeing
them flot.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I've been in a situation where I've been in a
relationship and I was talking to a guy at a
bar and really quickly it looked like I was coming
across a single and he was taking that on and
he was flirting, and I was like, oh my god,
I've just been flirting with this man who thinks I'm
signal and I pulled it back straight away, which I
(04:04):
feel like is the bit of a red flag for
me in this dilemma. It's the wanting to flirt. I
think it's the desire to flirt with other people rather
than just being a flirty person. That's a bit of
a red flag.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Claire, you've been a relationship. How long have you been
with your partner? Actually twenty three years?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Whoa twenty five? It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Oh I know, I was gonna say, you just celebrated
your twenty first birthday. I don't know how that's people
I know. Have you had moments where you've kind of
wanted to have a little little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Of a flat Oh, hell yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think it's human nature to want to feel appreciated
by the people around you, whether they're male, or female.
I've flirted with women as well as flirted with men
in my time that I've been with my husband, But
I struggle with an issue with the fact that I'm
just a very naturally super curious person. I like to
ask people a lot of questions. I like to find
out who they are. I'm very into whatever it is
(04:54):
they're telling me, and that is often misconstrued as being
flirtatious as well, especially from men in particular.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Women not so much.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
But I find flirting the best way to really get
to know people.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It opens them up.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
A little bit more, maybe relaxes I'm a little bit
into the conversation. But then you do cross the line
sometimes with people who misunderstand that you're flirting is coming
from like a sexualized place that you want to have
some kind of physical relationship with them. My husband, on
the other hand, is a very black and white guy.
He does not flirt with other women, does not want
to send out the wrong signal, and therefore he's like
(05:27):
one hundred.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Percent does not do so.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
He struggled a little bit with my personality to start with,
because it looks like I'm flirting with every Tom, Dick
and Harry that comes past me when realistically that's just
who I am as a person. I'm very chatty. But
I think your right and in that the desire to
flirt with somebody obviously means that you're not getting something
from your partner that you're looking for in someone else.
And so if they're not delivering that for you, or
(05:49):
maybe it's a case that one person can't deliver that
for you, that maybe being non monogamous is something that
you can explore because maybe one person can't give you
all the needs that you have, And so it depends
on your partner's perspective I'm flirting and how open they
are to you, just understanding that it's just flirting and
nothing more, and whether you feel like any one person
(06:09):
can deliver you the desires that you have and the
needs that you have in a relationship.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Jessee, what are the telltale signs that someone is flirting
versus just being super interested in someone?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I looked this up right because I needed a definition here,
because I went, I'm sure I flirt all the time,
and sometimes I kind of know I'm doing it because
I think when you've been in a long term relationship,
the tap of being attracted to people doesn't turn off
like you're human. Of course, sometimes you're attracted to someone
and you're like, oh, I'm going to talk to this
person more because they're attractive, whether that's physically or charismatic
(06:41):
or whatever it is. And it's said that flirting it
involves verbal and nonverbal behaviors that signal interest or attraction
toward another person. I'm like, tick, I definitely do that.
But then there was another that said to behave as
though you are sexually attracted to someone, so it's playful
rather than with serious intentions. But the sexual attraction seems
(07:02):
to be an undercurrent. But what you were just saying, Claire,
and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but you were saying,
are you flirting because you're not getting something satisfied in
your relationship? I think you're right, and that thing that's
not being satisfied is the act of flirting. Because at
some stage the flirting stops the like playfulness.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
When does the stars The compliments also stop a little
bit too, wah become used to your partner. You're not
going to say, I mean, there are some people that
do maintain it, but like I know with my part
I don't wake up every day and go, oh my god,
you're the most handsome man.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I've ever seen in my life. Like it just point
over time.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, you know, I think a lot of flirting and
courting and that playfulness comes from what people don't know
about you. So there's something very fun about being in
a social situation and getting to present a part of
yourself that's manufactured. And unfortunately, in a long term relationship,
the beauty and the ugliness of long term monogamy is
(08:02):
that they will call you on your bullshit. Like I
remember I had a friend who saw a therapist for
a while who said that when she was dating and
having casual sex with people, she felt like the sex
and the flirting was so much fun because she was
in total control of what she was putting forward. Like
in the bedroom she could be a character and she
(08:23):
felt really in control. And then she was with this person,
She's like, it's not as good, and they were like, yeah,
because he sees you, sees you for all that you are,
and that stops being sexy and it stops being totally
It can be playful in.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
A different way.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I think you can triumph, but like, come on, you
can't kind of go up and like.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Whip each other in the kitchen.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It's just so really hard to be flirtatious with someone
who's also seen you, i don't know, throw up plenty
of times, or like saw an entire human.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Come out of you vagina.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Like things shift and flirting feels a bit too weird.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It feels fake, right, But I do think that there's
an element of flirting that you've got to be realistic.
And Luca and I have talked about this. It's like
the sexual attraction tap doesn't turn off. We have understandings
about like where the line is. Like if you know,
he was sitting in a bar kind of cuddling up
to someone, obviously that's weird.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But if he wants to.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Go and have a chat to someone who finds attractive,
like that's not against the law, Like that's totally fine.
So I think that it's probably about trust, about respect
and not doing it in front of someone, and also
like not crossing the line also too.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Can I just say one thing, Yes, it does fade
a little bit in a long term relationship, but in
my experience it gradually comes back over time. Really, you
actually really become so very secure and happy and safe
in your relationship. When you feel like you can do
and say whatever the hell you want, you can go
from being like a total dickhead and acting like, you know,
(09:51):
really stupid together and laughing, and then you can like
turn it on and be like hey, babe, like once
you feel super safe and secure and happy. And I
think for me that came after having a kid and
understanding like how that really cemented our relationship. It does
come back in increments.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I think, Oh, Claire, okay, I'm going on a first date.
Can I have some flirting tips?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Please? Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I live vicariously through inverteb all the time. She knows
this literally when it comes to men, if you're dating
a man, he just wants to talk about himself and
maybe his job or his car or something like just
don't get into conversations. I don't know about Joe Rogan
or Trump or something, but he really just wants to
talk about himself. And there is something about giving a
man a compliment because it doesn't happen to them very often.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
They don't get compliments.
Speaker 4 (10:37):
No, true, poor men with women like you look so beautiful,
and then when I say, like I really like your
shirt to like one of my guy friends. He's like
that means so much to me.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and they do like double tach like thank you
does not happen enough at it?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Okay, compliment him, got it, I love it. We'll report back,
all right.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
This is the second question that we have, and it
was actually from an article in The Guardian. It was
written into columnist Eleanor Gordon Smith and this could have
been taken from my mouthist limit. It's not about my sister.
It's about other people in my life. And I literally
had this conversation on the weekend and everyone at the
table had one person in their life that they went
(11:17):
this person exists, and I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
To do about them, right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So this Rita wrote in and she was talking about
her sister, who she says she loves dearly. They are
just very different, she said of her sister. For the
last ten years, three issues have been bothering her, her weight,
her marriage, and her dissatisfaction with her job, but she
does nothing about any of them. I tried to help
her in many different ways, direct advice. She gets offended.
Then I tried tiptoeing around her for each suggestion. She
(11:42):
always has an excuse why it won't work. Additionally, she
often has a victim complex, as if things are just
happening to her and she has no personal agency. I
was wondering, what can I do? What other approaches can
I try so that I can help my sister while
still being supportive and letting her do things in her
own time and way. It hurts to see her stuck
(12:02):
in the life. Do you two have people in your
life that you see as stuck and you fantasize about
getting them by the shoulders, telling them exactly what I
need to do, and then they do it and their
life improves.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, it's so hard, hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And what do you think is the answer? How do
we fix it? How do we not fix it?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Claire? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Look, Jesse Stevens, you would know this probably better than
most of us. But the relationship you have with a sister,
I mean, we all have sisters, right, so we understand
what a unique relationship that is.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And so you can push.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That relationship pretty damn far, knowing that it will bounce
back again eventually. And like my sister and I have
had some barnies literally about something very similar to this,
And there was a point where she stopped talking to
me for a couple of weeks, and it took that
real moment of us not talking and me not giving
in because this is the bad thing. We enable our
(12:53):
sisters all the time, as they enable us because they
know us so well, and they will let us get
away with everything.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Eventually, if it is that bad and.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
They literally have not made enough of an effort to
help themselves, you have to draw the line. You've got
to put your foot down, and you've got an back down,
and you've got to say, look, until you saw your
shit out in this area, I don't want to talk
about it anymore. Or something I've said to my sister
which made her super angry. I'm not going to tell
you what you want to hear from me today. This
is not going to happen. She got super mad, stopped
(13:21):
talking to me. Eventually, she rang me in tears one
day and I said to her again, if you're calling
for me to tell you that I'm responsible for all
the things that have happened in your life and it's
you know, not you. She said to me, I don't
know why I keep doing this, And it was his
first moment that she I think had realized that I
wasn't going to give her what she wanted because I'm
her enabler, and she finally sort of started I'm not
(13:44):
saying it was a miracle cure for everything, and she
all of a sudden changed her entire life and was
good again. Like she still struggles with some things as
do I, but she really, I think was the moment
where I didn't give it to her and she finally
went She's not going to enable me, who else is
going to? And she finally started to look at it
in a place of self reflection.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Yeah, that's so interesting because I kind of had a
similar response when I have to deal with and I
am going to use like my sister as an example,
even though I guess we're fine now, it's not like
my stress to take on. And when I reread this dilemma,
it was really interesting because her sister hasn't actually asked
her for advice or asked her for help. She's taking
(14:24):
it upon herself. And I want to know the demographics
of them as well, because I feel like this is
so particular for an older sister to do, because that's
exactly what I do with my sister. And there's a
pretty big age gap, fairly big. It's like six years
between us. And I've always been in the position where
it's my responsibility to make sure she has the best
(14:44):
life possible because that's what my parents got to do
for me, and I feel like now it's my turn
to do it for her. And my sister and I
are so different, like we're completely different people. She's absolutely
fine in her life. The thing is that she just
has a very different life to me. It's confusing for
me to not see her and be like, why don't
you want to do what I'm doing?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And I see that in myself, like I can feel
a bit controlling sometimes where I go when I've laid
in bed, and this is often the thing when I
can't sleep, I think about other people's lives and fixing
them right. And I was in the spiral the other
night and I just thought, what would they say to you, though,
Like if you're sitting there going I want to wave
my finger and tell you how to live your life,
(15:26):
they could probably grab me and go I think that
you're making some wrong moves, Like we would all think
that about each other's lives. But what this points to
is when you are in a very close relationship with
someone who is unhappy and who could do something to
fix it. And what do you do when you are
just the person who is listening, who is like taking
(15:46):
it all, taking it all on about the sadness, and
you go, well, maybe you could quit your job, maybe
you could leave that relationship. Maybe, and it just goes
on and on, and the victim complex. There are some
people who that's like a theme throughout their lives. And
what complicates it too is that that is also a
feature of serious mental illness. It can be a symptom
(16:09):
of depression to have that learned helplessness, that victim complex.
Everything happens to me, everything is hard. And then people say,
you know, you should talk about mental health and other
people can help you. I don't know how you how
you can because you can't fix someone else's life for them.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
But you can also fight back in a way that
you be the negative one. And this is something I
found works in several circumstances, this one in particular. So
I had a friend who was very similar to this,
who was constantly telling me about all the things, and
it did not matter what I said to her.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
She always had a response to it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
If my advice was well, why don't you leave your husband,
She's like, well, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I want to work on my marriage.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
And so, like every single thing had a rebuttal, and
I remember one day I just said to her, well,
I don't know, maybe we should just give up.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Let's just give up.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
And not even worry about anything anymore and just like
to hell with it. And she was like, wait, what, No,
And then she was like no, but like I love him,
and I'm like, we'll do you because it doesn't like
you love like I started to become like the full
negative Nancy, and so she had to kind of counteract
that with some positivity because she didn't want to feel
like my entire life is shit. So like I think
sometimes if you're reverse the roles and give them a
(17:19):
bit of perspective from the other side, maybe that works too.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
That's actually really close to what the advice Columba said,
which is they often don't want you to fix it,
and you can't anyway. We all know that we offer
solutions and they don't act on them, and then you
start feeling resentful. She said, you can ask them, do
you want things to feel different and then just start
there because if they go, oh, yes, then you can
(17:44):
kind of go all right, let's talk about how we
might have things feel different. But the reality is that
you go, I don't actually know if you want things
to feel different because you're stuck in this loop and
you're kind of just dragging me down with you.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
And some people like to live in the drama. Let's
be honest, we've all been there, you know, when your
life is like complete another turmoil and you just want
to tell everyone about it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Like I've absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Been that with terrible bosses or horrible boyfriends, Like you
just want to tell everyone how terrible things are for you.
And they don't necessarily need a solution because you know
that eventually you'll leave that guy or quit that job,
but as of today, you just want to kind of
tell everyone how shit it is, you know. And the
solution can also feel dismissive sometimes like people aren't listening
(18:24):
and like not like they're blaming you. But I've definitely
felt that where it's kind of like, well, why don't
you do this? And I've gone, hang on, can we
sit in the pain from it?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I mean, and having someone listen and creating space to
actually have that. I mean that in itself can be
helpful to just let that sit because a lot of
people don't even have someone that they can talk to.
I think the issue is when it becomes this dynamic
that just is starting to really take a toll on you.
So I liked that line. I think I'm going to
(18:52):
use it. Do you want things to feel different? And
if you're looking for more to listen to? Every mom
of mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
something for everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
There's a link in our show notes.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of January.
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
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