January 8, 2026 • 28 mins
What actually makes someone charismatic? Can you develop 'rizz' or are you just born with it? We discover how researchers have literally invented something called the 'Charismulator' that can boost your charisma by 17 percent in just a few minutes. And, can you have too much of a good thing when it comes to charisma?
Plus, the internet has gifted us some new vocabulary. 'Mankeeping', 'heterofatalism', 'hermeneutic labour' — fancy words that all translate to the same exhausting reality: what it's actually like to date men. Em Vernem's got the juicy dating stories to prove these terms exist for a reason.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, I am Jesse Stevens. This summer we have curated
your out loud playlist. We're bringing you some of our
most talked about conversations so that your holiday.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Listening is sorted.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
In today's episode, we explore what actually makes someone charismatic?
Can you develop riz or are you just born with it?
Plus we also explore whether you can have too much
of it when it comes to charisma. We also talk
about the exhausting reality of what it's like to date men.
M Vernon full of juicy stories and she talks us
(00:51):
through some of the terms the Internet has gifted us,
like mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and hermanutic labor and what exactly
they have to do with dating.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What are the ingredients of charisma and do you have
to be born with it or can you develop it
with a machine.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
I'm very interested. I always thought that you did have
to be bored with it. As much as you can
read all these tips about how to get more of it,
you can't deny that sometimes you meet people and there's
just a thing about them, right, So just a lean
in quality.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So personality is forty to sixty percent inheritable, like it's
inherited right. So the idea that you would be an
extra vet, or you would be agreeable, or you would
be particularly neurotic or whatever it is, is based on
your genetics. But there are certain things you can do.
It's like learning to be a public speaker, like anyone
if they did enough training could probably tell us.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
First of all, you've got to understand what the components
of karisma are. So if I said to you whole,
what do you think the traits of a charismatic person are?
There's two.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Confidence, Probably I'd say, no, oh.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
What's the next one?
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Attractiveness comes into it, but it doesn't have to be
necessarily conventional attractiveness because I often think that charisma to
me is a very male coded word, even though we
all know lots of charismatic women. True, you more often
hear people say he's charismatic, And when you ask Google
who's charismatic, they're always men, And often it's a compliment
paid to men who are not necessarily conventionally attractive but
(02:24):
have an aura around them.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Do you think it means someone you want to fuck? Like?
Secretly I think.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
It no, because I don't think it's sexual. I don't
think charisma is sexual, but I think it's code for
someone who makes you feel good.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Interesting. And you're not wrong about confidence and personality, because
three of the traits that can make you more likely
to think someone has charisma are attractiveness, extraversion, and intelligence. Jesse,
how would you describe charisma like if you think of
some charismatic people like me, what do you think the
components of my charisma are?
Speaker 5 (02:57):
I'd love to disagree with her, but she's actually not
wrong with me. It is very charismatic. Yeah, yeah, this
is painting, Jesse, because she might have to say something
nice about me.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Look, I what do you think it is about me?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I looked it at what makes someone charismatic? And uh,
sure of me?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You can no, there was not a picture of you
at all. In fact, when I did ask Google, the
first twenty results were men, and then the Google AI
feature gave me six examples, all men.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
So charisma is very male.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
AI is very very sexist when you tell me who
they were.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you Barack Obama, you, George Clooney, You're Tom Cruise,
Martin Luther, Martin Luther.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
King, Lots of like people who make speeches.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But I'm watching Drive to Survive. Do you know who?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I think?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
No, absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
He's just hot.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's a different thing, Daniel Ricardo, you think yes.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
One of the reasons why it's not it was about
attractiveness is think of somebody and this is is because
you said cars. But who is? Like I don't mean
to be horrible, but it is actually repugnant to.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Me in many ways.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
He's generally classic, but he has bags of charisma? Does
Boris Johnson? Right? I know these are englishmen. I'm pulling
out here again like eh, but bags of charisma clearly
like it's there's something Barnaby Joyce like I'm not say
not personally like I want to. But the reason that
man is successful is not because he looks like George Clooney.
(04:24):
Charisma is there.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know a woman with charisma is Jackie Lamby. Yeah,
he has it, and I think that the reason she
has it. So extra version is important, confidence is important,
how you stand all that kind of stuff. So they
say how often you smile? Positive effect? So if you're
someone who's like miserable and cynical, not charismatic, I'm trying.
I'm trying You're meant to lean slightly forward when someone
(04:47):
is speaking, friendly eye contact but not too intense. He
meant to look away every now and then to just
give them a minute, avoid fidgeting. Apparently fidgeting is really charismatic,
mirror the other person's body language, very tone and pace, monotone,
not charismatic. So there are all these things that you
can kind of learn. But this one I found really interesting.
There's been this kind of since study done by this
(05:08):
Australian guy about what's the quality, what is the thing?
And he said, and this was surprising to me, it
is mental speed slash behavioral flexibility. And what he meant
by that was he was talking about things like quick wit,
like being with someone who is a chameleon and.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Who can give you what you Yes, you know they
often say about and again, lots of male examples I
can think of in this, but I'm sure there are
plenty of women. They often say, you know, he made
me feel like I was the only person in the room.
And again not necessarily in a sexual way, but when
they meet you really engaged and interested in you, Like
Prince Harry probably has charisma, Prince William possibly not.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
When I've worked with comedians or even like, I've watched
people and the thing that has blown my mind about
them is how quickly their mind is working. So Hamish Blake,
if you were to break down his charisma, I think
it's it's the how witty he is and how he
is this particular person when he does Hamish Nandy. And
(06:08):
then he was on that Assembly show with Lee Sales
and he gave a different element.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Of So it's shape shifting in a way, yes.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
But not in a way that feels manipulating.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
No, it's like adaptability. I think you need a lot
of self awareness. The two traits that they say you
were right about affability, which is basically breaks down into
those things that you said like the frequency of smiling
and how approachable someone is and how positive they are.
Negative people do not have charisma and influence, and influence
is judged based on qualities like the presence you have
(06:37):
in a room, which can be harder to kind of distill, right,
magnetism and leadership ability. But what's interesting is that these
researchers created this machine called the Charismilator. It's literally called
that the CHARISMI latter, and it combines those kind of
mental things with physical gestures and stuff, and they say
(07:01):
that if someone just spent fifteen minutes with it, I
assume it's like.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
It's like a VR situation.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, it improves your general charisma perceived by outsiders by
seventeen percent.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
That's insane. It's like the tiny little things you.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Do, so it can be learned. For some people it's innate,
and for some people that can be learned. But what's
also interesting is that if you have too much of it,
you're gonna like this. It can tip over to being
negative because too much charisma can become narcissism.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
So this is highlighted and put on my death.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Overwhelming, a bit overwhelming to be around those people.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Like, you know what, you don't want too much charisma.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
You don't want it, and you don't want it because
people don't trust you because they think that you kind
of all talk, no action, and apparently like it's kind
of the top echelons of charisma. People start to go no, no, no,
there's something not right here, like are you Ted Bundy
a serial killer type thing? And I just have no
worry of ever entering that area. So that makes me
feel a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I think the key to people with true charisma and
the right amount of charisma is that they're the same
one on one as they are in a group. Because
you mentioned comedians, Hamish Blake is the same. He's a
slightly yeah yeah, modified version one on one. I'm insued
him for my filter and I've made him a number
of its authentic yeah. And I would say the same
(08:22):
about Koshi for example, or about let's think.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Of someone women for women who definitely have charisma when
they walk into a room.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Well, definitely Michelle Obama, definitely a Barack Obama.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, we haven't met them, but I think that there's
not that big gap, whereas comedians that all the comedians
I've known or worked with, massive gap. It's performative.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
But then here's here's someone that we all know personally
and who's famous, who I think has a lot of charisma,
and I don't think it's it's absolutely not. It's Katelinebrook
and I think she has it because she's very, very quick,
And I think that that comes down to a certain
type of intelligence where you just go whatever's going on
behind the scenes and making all of that look easy,
(09:05):
but it's actually really.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Do you know, in case people think that it's just
extroverts that can have it. Sally, I don't think it's true.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
That's Sally Hepworth.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
She's not massive, like she's not a big personality like
Kate Langbrook, but she's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Why do you think I don't have it?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I don't know that you don't have it?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
But do you know what care is?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's not the best thing you can have.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Well. This is one of the things about this, right
is because I think although you know, the facts might
say you can make yourself more charismatic. I think it's
just true that some people have an X factor, whatever it.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Is, and that's a present.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It's nice for them that they have that. In the
same way that you know, some people are naturally very beautiful,
classically beautiful, and we act as if they've been blessed
by God because in a way they have. We know
their life will be made a little bit easier because
of it, but will also probably in some ways be
made a little bit more annoying. I think that trying
too hard is the opposite of being charismatic, and often
(10:01):
charismatic people might have a certain set of gifts, but
they won't have the other set of gifts. They won't
have the studiousness, they won't have the intelligence necessarily, they
won't have a whole lot of things that non character
you don't have it.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Tell me.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So we spoke on Monday Show about main character syndrome
and how main character syndrome is ruining public spaces because
everybody is the star of their own movie when I
was researching main character syndrome. Main character syndrome is the
delusion that causes you to behave in a very not
self aware way and act in a very imperious manner
that feels like everybody else is just like an extra
(10:37):
in your life. Main character energy is different. Main character
energy is actually just charisma. And the reason that you
don't have it and people will say, oh me, you're
being so mean. You know, I think that you're the
best thing in the whole world is because you need
a degree of narcissism to have main character energy and
(10:58):
to have charisma. You need to believe that you deserve
the attention of people. And you are the least narcissistic,
least main character energy person that I know. And that's
not a judgment or an insult or I mean, it's
a compliment, I think, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
It's a compliment.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Yeah, it's a compl because you're exceptionally accomplished to have
a massive head.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But you know what, I want a study on. I
would like to fund a study on whether there's any
such thing as a charismatic twin, because twins don't have
a level of knowling because they offering within a pair.
So I just wonder if it's like you kind of interest,
if not that you feel like one half, but like, yeah,
that it kind.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Of when the two of you are together, there's more
of a force.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Maybe we have Maybe together we have the charisthma of being.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Out with you on Saturday night. I noticed that together
you have more of a gravitational pull.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Interesting.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Yeah, I have one more question on this matter. It's
very hard to fake X factor in real life. Is
it possible to fake it on socials? So a bit
like the Wizard of Oz. You know how the Wizard
of Oz is just a little man behind the machine.
Do you reckon that influences and people who can build,
who are really online can create a charismatic presence, like
almost behind the scenes. That is so true and that
(12:18):
therefore you don't need to be charismatic in person anymore.
You can just be charismatic in your words and images
on that.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I think that's so true, and I think it also
explains by dating so complicated, because you can project an
image of charisma and have none of it when the
person meets you. I have a final question for you,
mayor it's a work question. Do you think a leader
needs charisma, whether it's a leader of a team, a CEO,
someone who is like.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
This study actually talked about that, and it's like it
certainly helps. We've learnt a lot more that brilliant Susan
kanebook Quiet about introverts and the idea of we used
to think, because it was a fairly male alpha model,
that all leaders in business or in sports teams needed
to be extroverts and needed to be that kind of
alpha presence. We've now learned that there's a lot to
(13:04):
be said for introverted leadership. Introverted charisma is less flashy.
But the problem with too much charisma in a leader,
we're talking about that tipping point of where it becomes
a liability. Leaders that are too charismatic, and I've worked
with some of these in the past, they tend to
be very big on show, not great on execution. So
(13:27):
that's where it's so interesting, this idea. And I know
that I've been that in the past, where I have
really been great at talking exactly, but I haven't been.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Good with follow through.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And I also think that there's probably you know, the
more I think about it in whole, I think you've
got charisma. I do, but I think that you two no,
I think what goes against it for you to We
often talk about how our upbringings are different. I grew
up with my parents saying you can do anything, You're awesome.
(14:00):
You grew up in a different way.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It was just different style.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
I'm sure I did tell you that. When I was
on holiday, my dad read my book and he's said
to me, there were like two really good passages in't there?
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Oh my God?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Whereas if I when I write a book, my mother
writes a sonnet of written response. She doesn't interpret him.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Dances of excitement explains.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And I think that part of charisma, whether you fake
it or whether you believe it, is taking up space,
you know, feeling like you have the right to take
up space. And I think that that's why so fewer
women have it because we're taught you don't have the
ret It's why so many men have podcasts that go
for three four hours, and we're like, oh, it's forty
(14:42):
minutes too long, woman, it's forty two minutes. We don't
want to take up too much of their time.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Maybe this week you've seen a lot of man keeping
talk around. We discussed this on the pod a while
ago last year. I think man keeping describes the caretaking
role that women often play for the men in their lives.
We did a lot of generalizing today, by the way,
a great deal of generalizing, looking after their emotional needs,
bolstering their confidence, support their well being. It's not just
(15:08):
necessarily about doing more around the house, but that basically
you're the one who will remind them to go to
the doctors, tell them to call their mother on her birthday, all.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Of that kind of I love my dad, but I
think I man keep my dad, like I think that
he's someone I have to look after.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
There was an article in The Guardian recently called are
heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded
up a whole lot of other examples of terms like
man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically
the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.
For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to
describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the
(15:46):
mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, Do you relate?
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I think I related more to this in my early
twenties when I first started dating, And I think a
lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're
new to dating or they've come after a breakup and
they're in the new world of dating, it is quite
suddenly exp experience to see how many people are so
different to you and your friends that are out there,
(16:12):
that are now in the dating pool. And it's something
that I feel like now I've just gotten so so
used to that it's like not even a thing for
me anymore. Like you just have to be okay with
knowing that some people you'll date are just going to
be quite shit.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism more
hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual
woman and going, I don't know how much longer I
can do this, Because that was a sense there was
a great New York Times piece about it, and that's
what the author essentially said, is it her friends look
at each other and go, I'm off it.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Yeah, every single situation should breakup, which a lot of
women go through. I feel like I go through that
all over again, and then I delete the apps and
they come back like six months later, only recently. I
want to read you out some texts that I got
from a man.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Oh please.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I was seeing this guy. I think we went on
about four or five dates.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I have a feeling I talked about him on the podcast,
talked about saying we went on the podcast and we
were talking and he wanted to date and I was
like yeah, and he's like, she would be exclusive, and
I was like, yeah, if you want, Like I mean,
I'm still on the apps. I know you're still on
the apps because your profile still there, and he's like
yeah yeah. And then two days after that, I just
messaged him and I was like, are you free on
the weekend and he said a day later, which was
(17:27):
the Saturday, he said, I'm at work all weekend. I
finished at six tomorrow, but we've got lots of bookings
in because he's a bartender, so it could be later. Sorry,
I'll keep you in the loop.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Okay, So in this New York Times article, it told
a story and this woman was talking about one of
her friends and she'd gone on a third date with
a lawyer, and her friend said to her, he's really
really sweet and nice to me and good at sex,
no doubt, something humiliating a night marriash will occurs in
which I just really related with anyway, And then he
went he was really.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Busy with his word. Men are all they're so busy
with their works, and I'm like women.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And she ended up saying she would message him and
he would just go days and days, and she kind
of ended up saying, hey, is it all right like
you though you're taking six days to respond, It was
just taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said, sorry for
keeping you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said
the complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able
to escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship.
(18:28):
And this friend clarified that she had not been asking
to escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.
He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were
obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason
I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had
this happen about seven times.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
It was like clockwork.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I feel like he just read out my diary.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yes of I would date people and then four months,
like not two days, four months down the track, and
then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird
or trying to make a plan or something, and I
would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it
would go, I think we want different things, and I
was like, I just want to know for hanging out
on Saturday. And then they'd be like, you clearly want
(19:10):
a relationship, and I.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Was like, I do, but I didn't say that.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Friends, he's just not that into you, Like, come on,
that's the end of that. Why all of this, It's
just really like if they're not texting you back, if
he's texting you back saying we've got a lot of
bookings in tonight, not sure, maybe like he's not that
into you. There's the end of that conversation. Like if
he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if he was
working till midnight, he would try and get around there
(19:36):
as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be getting someone
else to finish his shift for him.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
So the issue is that what's wrong with them that
they don't like us?
Speaker 5 (19:44):
Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario. Is
it true? This kind of premise is like men have
gotten worse because as women have been able to ask
for more of what they want, because they've got more independence,
they've got more choices, they've got what we know. Yeah,
as we discuss all the time, the dialogue is kind
(20:04):
of they don't have to put up with this shitty
behavior anyway. That's generally the vibe, right, Like, yeah, and
so I threw away the sex and the city line.
But say, like when that show started in the late
nineties and noughties, it was like women tying themselves in
knots to believe something that wasn't true about this guy
seemed more.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Urgent than it does now.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Isn't it interesting though that that show had not a
sprinkle of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well,
it was about that they still believed in, like finding
the person, whereas now there's this real nihilism when it
comes to some of the characters.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always little bit of that
with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had a
lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had a
lot of Peter like. Anyway, we're not talking about sex
and the City. But it seems interesting that we've changed
the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,
you do have all the choices in the world, right,
(21:03):
you are a catch, I'm here to tell you, crying
that question, right, and yet you're still trying to decipher
what this stupid fucking text message means.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex
and the City, like they started the taxicab theory right.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I
would bet my house on that theory.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I agree. I think that theory is so true.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will
go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.
And depending on who they're just dating at the time
they're ready to settle down, that's a person. But women,
women have a light to your lights just have to
be on at the same time, I think women are
more and I think this is where the taxicab theory
(21:50):
is making men really confuse now because women, as you said, whole,
have more agency over their lives and dating, and they're
becoming more picky with dating in a good way, saying
that they're going to look for the right person, so
their lights only turns on on the person that they
feel like they're going to spend the rest of their life.
For example, I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely
(22:10):
not going to marry you, but you're fun right now,
so I'm going to keep dating you. If his taxi
cab light turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out,
like that's not me, of course. And now these men
all we have on these apps are these men who
are really confused, going my lights on, my lights on,
but no one wants to date me, And they aren't
able to figure out why no one wants to date them.
They just think all they have to do is turn
their lights on and there'll be a woman there waiting
(22:31):
for them.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he
doesn't want to go on another date with you and
has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many
bookings he's got in his bix.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
His light's not on, his lights on on.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
My theory is that there is this gap between our
desire and our politics right, and that we would have
this desire.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
I felt like I was.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about
what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less
independent or less I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,
and I didn't like how some men made me feel.
They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I
don't like this. I feel in control in so many
(23:12):
avenues of my life and.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
You're making for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday night plans.
And they were like, whoa, I don't want to get
married crazy.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I was like, how did you make me feel like that?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And there was this term in the New York Times
article I loved, which was I'm not gonna be able
to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the condition
of being unable to put words to emotions, and it's
about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.
Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring
up the issue again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,
(23:46):
ask men to talk about it, and then it gives
way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,
which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand
even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I just have to throw a little spanner in the
works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual
for me.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
To bed.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
When the disiah is mismatched in a dating situation, like
he likes you more than you like him, or you
like him more than he likes you. Neither of us
are good at communicating that. Emily, you might be because
you're very good. You're quite good at being straightforward. But
I know that in my dating life, if a guy
was asking me if I wanted to go out on
Saturday night and I didn't, did I say? Was I
(24:27):
emotionally super mature and say like, hey, you know, I
think I appreciate you asking me, and blah blah blah
blah blah, but no, I don't think we've got a
future together. Of course I didn't.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
That was too awkward.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
I would have said exactly the same thing, We've got
too many bookings on Saturday night. Now I'll call you
sometime next week. I think that women are confrontational avoidant too.
But the thing is is that we tell ourselves a
different story because we're always casting ourselves in the person
who's wanting a thing, and that men have got the
thing we want. So we feel like in our dating
stories it's always them saying no, and we're saying, but
(24:59):
I want, but I want, and they're saying no, when
actually think, like, if you're really honest with yourself, don't
you think there have been lots of times you haven't
treated a person in your daily life with the absolute
respect they deserve.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Oh, absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
But I do think examples of that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
There is something. And this is not just in dating,
This is in relationships. This is in couples that have
been together for forty years. I think this idea that
some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I
can't work out whether that is something innate or whether
that is something there's definitely a socialization element to it
(25:37):
where I think that men get into some situations and go,
I don't even know what to label this feeling. And
for women who are very used to articulating how they
feel and talking to their big group of females, and
it's something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since
they were very little. Like I think that there is
a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's
greater than it's ever been.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
I think it's massive now because men don't talk to
their friends about things, and it's so evident when you
go on that first date with a guy, because exactly,
I think I even talked about this in the podcasts
where I was asking this guy question after question after question,
he was like, what else do you have to ask me?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Instead of asking me a question that matter?
Speaker 6 (26:14):
And I think it's because it's usually the first time
he's just a dick. He's a dick, But it's also
usually the first time where they've actually talked about themselves
and had someone interested in their life. One time, I
went on a date with a guy and he literally
said to.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Me, no one's ever asked me that before. The question
was what does your sister do for work?
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I genuinely believe no one's actually hastened that before.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Weird.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
I want you to tell me though, back to this,
because so many examples in these stories are about a
woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,
and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment
that his light isn't on or that they're not matched
or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?
What should the guy have said? And what do you
(27:02):
say to a guy who's saying I want to go
out again on Thursday and you're like, no, what I do? Now?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
You're right.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
It's definitely something I didn't do when I first started dating,
because I'd always be like, oh, I don't want to
hurt anyone's feelings.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
But what I do now is that after a date,
I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy
getting to know you.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
I feel like we're not compatible. Good luck.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
That's very mature.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
And now the fact making them go like waiting a
few days knowing because I know that I would do it,
and I know that if they like me a lot
and I don't like them, I know they'll spend the
next two few days going should I message?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Should I not?
Speaker 6 (27:36):
What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,
do you want to hang out this weekend? And then
I'll take two days to reply and then I'll be like, hey,
just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been
really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit
to do to someone. I think with online dating now
is that it's given you the excuse where you can
have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.
You have the excuse of it being like so much
(27:58):
more casual and so much more chill. I know a
lot of women don't like doing it in person because
I like, you can feel unsafe a sometimes, and I
think just like message them, just them like straight after
or a day after, and be like I've been thinking
about it. I don't want to see you again, but
I'd much prefer that then kind of like making what
I think is happening a bigger deal in.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
My head for it to just be crushed with a
ghosting their confusion.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of
January
Speaker 5 (28:42):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, I am Jesse Stevens. This summer we have curated
your out loud playlist. We're bringing you some of our
most talked about conversations so that your holiday.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Listening is sorted.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
In today's episode, we explore what actually makes someone charismatic?
Can you develop riz or are you just born with it?
Plus we also explore whether you can have too much
of it when it comes to charisma. We also talk
about the exhausting reality of what it's like to date men.
M Vernon full of juicy stories and she talks us
(00:51):
through some of the terms the Internet has gifted us,
like mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and hermanutic labor and what exactly
they have to do with dating.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What are the ingredients of charisma and do you have
to be born with it or can you develop it
with a machine.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
I'm very interested. I always thought that you did have
to be bored with it. As much as you can
read all these tips about how to get more of it,
you can't deny that sometimes you meet people and there's
just a thing about them, right, So just a lean
in quality.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So personality is forty to sixty percent inheritable, like it's
inherited right. So the idea that you would be an
extra vet, or you would be agreeable, or you would
be particularly neurotic or whatever it is, is based on
your genetics. But there are certain things you can do.
It's like learning to be a public speaker, like anyone
if they did enough training could probably tell us.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
First of all, you've got to understand what the components
of karisma are. So if I said to you whole,
what do you think the traits of a charismatic person are?
There's two.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Confidence, Probably I'd say, no, oh.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
What's the next one?
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Attractiveness comes into it, but it doesn't have to be
necessarily conventional attractiveness because I often think that charisma to
me is a very male coded word, even though we
all know lots of charismatic women. True, you more often
hear people say he's charismatic, And when you ask Google
who's charismatic, they're always men, And often it's a compliment
paid to men who are not necessarily conventionally attractive but
(02:24):
have an aura around them.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Do you think it means someone you want to fuck? Like?
Secretly I think.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
It no, because I don't think it's sexual. I don't
think charisma is sexual, but I think it's code for
someone who makes you feel good.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Interesting. And you're not wrong about confidence and personality, because
three of the traits that can make you more likely
to think someone has charisma are attractiveness, extraversion, and intelligence. Jesse,
how would you describe charisma like if you think of
some charismatic people like me, what do you think the
components of my charisma are?
Speaker 5 (02:57):
I'd love to disagree with her, but she's actually not
wrong with me. It is very charismatic. Yeah, yeah, this
is painting, Jesse, because she might have to say something
nice about me.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Look, I what do you think it is about me?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I looked it at what makes someone charismatic? And uh,
sure of me?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You can no, there was not a picture of you
at all. In fact, when I did ask Google, the
first twenty results were men, and then the Google AI
feature gave me six examples, all men.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
So charisma is very male.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
AI is very very sexist when you tell me who
they were.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you Barack Obama, you, George Clooney, You're Tom Cruise,
Martin Luther, Martin Luther.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
King, Lots of like people who make speeches.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
But I'm watching Drive to Survive. Do you know who?
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I think?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
No, absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
He's just hot.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's a different thing, Daniel Ricardo, you think yes.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
One of the reasons why it's not it was about
attractiveness is think of somebody and this is is because
you said cars. But who is? Like I don't mean
to be horrible, but it is actually repugnant to.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Me in many ways.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
He's generally classic, but he has bags of charisma? Does
Boris Johnson? Right? I know these are englishmen. I'm pulling
out here again like eh, but bags of charisma clearly
like it's there's something Barnaby Joyce like I'm not say
not personally like I want to. But the reason that
man is successful is not because he looks like George Clooney.
(04:24):
Charisma is there.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know a woman with charisma is Jackie Lamby. Yeah,
he has it, and I think that the reason she
has it. So extra version is important, confidence is important,
how you stand all that kind of stuff. So they
say how often you smile? Positive effect? So if you're
someone who's like miserable and cynical, not charismatic, I'm trying.
I'm trying You're meant to lean slightly forward when someone
(04:47):
is speaking, friendly eye contact but not too intense. He
meant to look away every now and then to just
give them a minute, avoid fidgeting. Apparently fidgeting is really charismatic,
mirror the other person's body language, very tone and pace, monotone,
not charismatic. So there are all these things that you
can kind of learn. But this one I found really interesting.
There's been this kind of since study done by this
(05:08):
Australian guy about what's the quality, what is the thing?
And he said, and this was surprising to me, it
is mental speed slash behavioral flexibility. And what he meant
by that was he was talking about things like quick wit,
like being with someone who is a chameleon and.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Who can give you what you Yes, you know they
often say about and again, lots of male examples I
can think of in this, but I'm sure there are
plenty of women. They often say, you know, he made
me feel like I was the only person in the room.
And again not necessarily in a sexual way, but when
they meet you really engaged and interested in you, Like
Prince Harry probably has charisma, Prince William possibly not.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
When I've worked with comedians or even like, I've watched
people and the thing that has blown my mind about
them is how quickly their mind is working. So Hamish Blake,
if you were to break down his charisma, I think
it's it's the how witty he is and how he
is this particular person when he does Hamish Nandy. And
(06:08):
then he was on that Assembly show with Lee Sales
and he gave a different element.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Of So it's shape shifting in a way, yes.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
But not in a way that feels manipulating.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
No, it's like adaptability. I think you need a lot
of self awareness. The two traits that they say you
were right about affability, which is basically breaks down into
those things that you said like the frequency of smiling
and how approachable someone is and how positive they are.
Negative people do not have charisma and influence, and influence
is judged based on qualities like the presence you have
(06:37):
in a room, which can be harder to kind of distill, right,
magnetism and leadership ability. But what's interesting is that these
researchers created this machine called the Charismilator. It's literally called
that the CHARISMI latter, and it combines those kind of
mental things with physical gestures and stuff, and they say
(07:01):
that if someone just spent fifteen minutes with it, I
assume it's like.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
It's like a VR situation.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, it improves your general charisma perceived by outsiders by
seventeen percent.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
That's insane. It's like the tiny little things you.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Do, so it can be learned. For some people it's innate,
and for some people that can be learned. But what's
also interesting is that if you have too much of it,
you're gonna like this. It can tip over to being
negative because too much charisma can become narcissism.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
So this is highlighted and put on my death.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Overwhelming, a bit overwhelming to be around those people.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Like, you know what, you don't want too much charisma.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
You don't want it, and you don't want it because
people don't trust you because they think that you kind
of all talk, no action, and apparently like it's kind
of the top echelons of charisma. People start to go no, no, no,
there's something not right here, like are you Ted Bundy
a serial killer type thing? And I just have no
worry of ever entering that area. So that makes me
feel a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I think the key to people with true charisma and
the right amount of charisma is that they're the same
one on one as they are in a group. Because
you mentioned comedians, Hamish Blake is the same. He's a
slightly yeah yeah, modified version one on one. I'm insued
him for my filter and I've made him a number
of its authentic yeah. And I would say the same
(08:22):
about Koshi for example, or about let's think.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Of someone women for women who definitely have charisma when
they walk into a room.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Well, definitely Michelle Obama, definitely a Barack Obama.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, we haven't met them, but I think that there's
not that big gap, whereas comedians that all the comedians
I've known or worked with, massive gap. It's performative.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
But then here's here's someone that we all know personally
and who's famous, who I think has a lot of charisma,
and I don't think it's it's absolutely not. It's Katelinebrook
and I think she has it because she's very, very quick,
And I think that that comes down to a certain
type of intelligence where you just go whatever's going on
behind the scenes and making all of that look easy,
(09:05):
but it's actually really.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Do you know, in case people think that it's just
extroverts that can have it. Sally, I don't think it's true.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
That's Sally Hepworth.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
She's not massive, like she's not a big personality like
Kate Langbrook, but she's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Why do you think I don't have it?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I don't know that you don't have it?
Speaker 4 (09:26):
But do you know what care is?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's not the best thing you can have.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Well. This is one of the things about this, right
is because I think although you know, the facts might
say you can make yourself more charismatic. I think it's
just true that some people have an X factor, whatever it.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Is, and that's a present.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It's nice for them that they have that. In the
same way that you know, some people are naturally very beautiful,
classically beautiful, and we act as if they've been blessed
by God because in a way they have. We know
their life will be made a little bit easier because
of it, but will also probably in some ways be
made a little bit more annoying. I think that trying
too hard is the opposite of being charismatic, and often
(10:01):
charismatic people might have a certain set of gifts, but
they won't have the other set of gifts. They won't
have the studiousness, they won't have the intelligence necessarily, they
won't have a whole lot of things that non character
you don't have it.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Tell me.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So we spoke on Monday Show about main character syndrome
and how main character syndrome is ruining public spaces because
everybody is the star of their own movie when I
was researching main character syndrome. Main character syndrome is the
delusion that causes you to behave in a very not
self aware way and act in a very imperious manner
that feels like everybody else is just like an extra
(10:37):
in your life. Main character energy is different. Main character
energy is actually just charisma. And the reason that you
don't have it and people will say, oh me, you're
being so mean. You know, I think that you're the
best thing in the whole world is because you need
a degree of narcissism to have main character energy and
(10:58):
to have charisma. You need to believe that you deserve
the attention of people. And you are the least narcissistic,
least main character energy person that I know. And that's
not a judgment or an insult or I mean, it's
a compliment, I think, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
It's a compliment.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Yeah, it's a compl because you're exceptionally accomplished to have
a massive head.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
But you know what, I want a study on. I
would like to fund a study on whether there's any
such thing as a charismatic twin, because twins don't have
a level of knowling because they offering within a pair.
So I just wonder if it's like you kind of interest,
if not that you feel like one half, but like, yeah,
that it kind.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Of when the two of you are together, there's more
of a force.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Maybe we have Maybe together we have the charisthma of being.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Out with you on Saturday night. I noticed that together
you have more of a gravitational pull.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Interesting.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Yeah, I have one more question on this matter. It's
very hard to fake X factor in real life. Is
it possible to fake it on socials? So a bit
like the Wizard of Oz. You know how the Wizard
of Oz is just a little man behind the machine.
Do you reckon that influences and people who can build,
who are really online can create a charismatic presence, like
almost behind the scenes. That is so true and that
(12:18):
therefore you don't need to be charismatic in person anymore.
You can just be charismatic in your words and images
on that.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I think that's so true, and I think it also
explains by dating so complicated, because you can project an
image of charisma and have none of it when the
person meets you. I have a final question for you,
mayor it's a work question. Do you think a leader
needs charisma, whether it's a leader of a team, a CEO,
someone who is like.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
This study actually talked about that, and it's like it
certainly helps. We've learnt a lot more that brilliant Susan
kanebook Quiet about introverts and the idea of we used
to think, because it was a fairly male alpha model,
that all leaders in business or in sports teams needed
to be extroverts and needed to be that kind of
alpha presence. We've now learned that there's a lot to
(13:04):
be said for introverted leadership. Introverted charisma is less flashy.
But the problem with too much charisma in a leader,
we're talking about that tipping point of where it becomes
a liability. Leaders that are too charismatic, and I've worked
with some of these in the past, they tend to
be very big on show, not great on execution. So
(13:27):
that's where it's so interesting, this idea. And I know
that I've been that in the past, where I have
really been great at talking exactly, but I haven't been.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Good with follow through.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And I also think that there's probably you know, the
more I think about it in whole, I think you've
got charisma. I do, but I think that you two no,
I think what goes against it for you to We
often talk about how our upbringings are different. I grew
up with my parents saying you can do anything, You're awesome.
(14:00):
You grew up in a different way.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It was just different style.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
I'm sure I did tell you that. When I was
on holiday, my dad read my book and he's said
to me, there were like two really good passages in't there?
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Oh my God?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Whereas if I when I write a book, my mother
writes a sonnet of written response. She doesn't interpret him.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Dances of excitement explains.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And I think that part of charisma, whether you fake
it or whether you believe it, is taking up space,
you know, feeling like you have the right to take
up space. And I think that that's why so fewer
women have it because we're taught you don't have the
ret It's why so many men have podcasts that go
for three four hours, and we're like, oh, it's forty
(14:42):
minutes too long, woman, it's forty two minutes. We don't
want to take up too much of their time.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Maybe this week you've seen a lot of man keeping
talk around. We discussed this on the pod a while
ago last year. I think man keeping describes the caretaking
role that women often play for the men in their lives.
We did a lot of generalizing today, by the way,
a great deal of generalizing, looking after their emotional needs,
bolstering their confidence, support their well being. It's not just
(15:08):
necessarily about doing more around the house, but that basically
you're the one who will remind them to go to
the doctors, tell them to call their mother on her birthday, all.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Of that kind of I love my dad, but I
think I man keep my dad, like I think that
he's someone I have to look after.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
There was an article in The Guardian recently called are
heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded
up a whole lot of other examples of terms like
man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically
the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.
For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to
describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the
(15:46):
mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, Do you relate?
Speaker 6 (15:51):
I think I related more to this in my early
twenties when I first started dating, And I think a
lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're
new to dating or they've come after a breakup and
they're in the new world of dating, it is quite
suddenly exp experience to see how many people are so
different to you and your friends that are out there,
(16:12):
that are now in the dating pool. And it's something
that I feel like now I've just gotten so so
used to that it's like not even a thing for
me anymore. Like you just have to be okay with
knowing that some people you'll date are just going to
be quite shit.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism more
hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual
woman and going, I don't know how much longer I
can do this, Because that was a sense there was
a great New York Times piece about it, and that's
what the author essentially said, is it her friends look
at each other and go, I'm off it.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Yeah, every single situation should breakup, which a lot of
women go through. I feel like I go through that
all over again, and then I delete the apps and
they come back like six months later, only recently. I
want to read you out some texts that I got
from a man.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Oh please.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I was seeing this guy. I think we went on
about four or five dates.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I have a feeling I talked about him on the podcast,
talked about saying we went on the podcast and we
were talking and he wanted to date and I was
like yeah, and he's like, she would be exclusive, and
I was like, yeah, if you want, Like I mean,
I'm still on the apps. I know you're still on
the apps because your profile still there, and he's like
yeah yeah. And then two days after that, I just
messaged him and I was like, are you free on
the weekend and he said a day later, which was
(17:27):
the Saturday, he said, I'm at work all weekend. I
finished at six tomorrow, but we've got lots of bookings
in because he's a bartender, so it could be later. Sorry,
I'll keep you in the loop.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Okay, So in this New York Times article, it told
a story and this woman was talking about one of
her friends and she'd gone on a third date with
a lawyer, and her friend said to her, he's really
really sweet and nice to me and good at sex,
no doubt, something humiliating a night marriash will occurs in
which I just really related with anyway, And then he
went he was really.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Busy with his word. Men are all they're so busy
with their works, and I'm like women.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And she ended up saying she would message him and
he would just go days and days, and she kind
of ended up saying, hey, is it all right like
you though you're taking six days to respond, It was
just taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said, sorry for
keeping you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said
the complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able
to escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship.
(18:28):
And this friend clarified that she had not been asking
to escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.
He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were
obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason
I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had
this happen about seven times.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
It was like clockwork.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I feel like he just read out my diary.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yes of I would date people and then four months,
like not two days, four months down the track, and
then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird
or trying to make a plan or something, and I
would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it
would go, I think we want different things, and I
was like, I just want to know for hanging out
on Saturday. And then they'd be like, you clearly want
(19:10):
a relationship, and I.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Was like, I do, but I didn't say that.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Friends, he's just not that into you, Like, come on,
that's the end of that. Why all of this, It's
just really like if they're not texting you back, if
he's texting you back saying we've got a lot of
bookings in tonight, not sure, maybe like he's not that
into you. There's the end of that conversation. Like if
he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if he was
working till midnight, he would try and get around there
(19:36):
as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be getting someone
else to finish his shift for him.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
So the issue is that what's wrong with them that
they don't like us?
Speaker 5 (19:44):
Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario. Is
it true? This kind of premise is like men have
gotten worse because as women have been able to ask
for more of what they want, because they've got more independence,
they've got more choices, they've got what we know. Yeah,
as we discuss all the time, the dialogue is kind
(20:04):
of they don't have to put up with this shitty
behavior anyway. That's generally the vibe, right, Like, yeah, and
so I threw away the sex and the city line.
But say, like when that show started in the late
nineties and noughties, it was like women tying themselves in
knots to believe something that wasn't true about this guy
seemed more.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Urgent than it does now.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Isn't it interesting though that that show had not a
sprinkle of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well,
it was about that they still believed in, like finding
the person, whereas now there's this real nihilism when it
comes to some of the characters.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always little bit of that
with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had a
lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had a
lot of Peter like. Anyway, we're not talking about sex
and the City. But it seems interesting that we've changed
the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,
you do have all the choices in the world, right,
(21:03):
you are a catch, I'm here to tell you, crying
that question, right, and yet you're still trying to decipher
what this stupid fucking text message means.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex
and the City, like they started the taxicab theory right.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I
would bet my house on that theory.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I agree. I think that theory is so true.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will
go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.
And depending on who they're just dating at the time
they're ready to settle down, that's a person. But women,
women have a light to your lights just have to
be on at the same time, I think women are
more and I think this is where the taxicab theory
(21:50):
is making men really confuse now because women, as you said, whole,
have more agency over their lives and dating, and they're
becoming more picky with dating in a good way, saying
that they're going to look for the right person, so
their lights only turns on on the person that they
feel like they're going to spend the rest of their life.
For example, I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely
(22:10):
not going to marry you, but you're fun right now,
so I'm going to keep dating you. If his taxi
cab light turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out,
like that's not me, of course. And now these men
all we have on these apps are these men who
are really confused, going my lights on, my lights on,
but no one wants to date me, And they aren't
able to figure out why no one wants to date them.
They just think all they have to do is turn
their lights on and there'll be a woman there waiting
(22:31):
for them.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he
doesn't want to go on another date with you and
has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many
bookings he's got in his bix.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
His light's not on, his lights on on.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
My theory is that there is this gap between our
desire and our politics right, and that we would have
this desire.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
I felt like I was.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about
what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less
independent or less I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,
and I didn't like how some men made me feel.
They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I
don't like this. I feel in control in so many
(23:12):
avenues of my life and.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
You're making for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday night plans.
And they were like, whoa, I don't want to get
married crazy.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I was like, how did you make me feel like that?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
And there was this term in the New York Times
article I loved, which was I'm not gonna be able
to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the condition
of being unable to put words to emotions, and it's
about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.
Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring
up the issue again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,
(23:46):
ask men to talk about it, and then it gives
way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,
which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand
even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I just have to throw a little spanner in the
works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual
for me.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
To bed.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
When the disiah is mismatched in a dating situation, like
he likes you more than you like him, or you
like him more than he likes you. Neither of us
are good at communicating that. Emily, you might be because
you're very good. You're quite good at being straightforward. But
I know that in my dating life, if a guy
was asking me if I wanted to go out on
Saturday night and I didn't, did I say? Was I
(24:27):
emotionally super mature and say like, hey, you know, I
think I appreciate you asking me, and blah blah blah
blah blah, but no, I don't think we've got a
future together. Of course I didn't.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
That was too awkward.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
I would have said exactly the same thing, We've got
too many bookings on Saturday night. Now I'll call you
sometime next week. I think that women are confrontational avoidant too.
But the thing is is that we tell ourselves a
different story because we're always casting ourselves in the person
who's wanting a thing, and that men have got the
thing we want. So we feel like in our dating
stories it's always them saying no, and we're saying, but
(24:59):
I want, but I want, and they're saying no, when
actually think, like, if you're really honest with yourself, don't
you think there have been lots of times you haven't
treated a person in your daily life with the absolute
respect they deserve.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Oh, absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
But I do think examples of that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
There is something. And this is not just in dating,
This is in relationships. This is in couples that have
been together for forty years. I think this idea that
some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I
can't work out whether that is something innate or whether
that is something there's definitely a socialization element to it
(25:37):
where I think that men get into some situations and go,
I don't even know what to label this feeling. And
for women who are very used to articulating how they
feel and talking to their big group of females, and
it's something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since
they were very little. Like I think that there is
a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's
greater than it's ever been.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
I think it's massive now because men don't talk to
their friends about things, and it's so evident when you
go on that first date with a guy, because exactly,
I think I even talked about this in the podcasts
where I was asking this guy question after question after question,
he was like, what else do you have to ask me?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Instead of asking me a question that matter?
Speaker 6 (26:14):
And I think it's because it's usually the first time
he's just a dick. He's a dick, But it's also
usually the first time where they've actually talked about themselves
and had someone interested in their life. One time, I
went on a date with a guy and he literally
said to.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Me, no one's ever asked me that before. The question
was what does your sister do for work?
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I genuinely believe no one's actually hastened that before.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Weird.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
I want you to tell me though, back to this,
because so many examples in these stories are about a
woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,
and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment
that his light isn't on or that they're not matched
or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?
What should the guy have said? And what do you
(27:02):
say to a guy who's saying I want to go
out again on Thursday and you're like, no, what I do? Now?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
You're right.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
It's definitely something I didn't do when I first started dating,
because I'd always be like, oh, I don't want to
hurt anyone's feelings.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
But what I do now is that after a date,
I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy
getting to know you.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
I feel like we're not compatible. Good luck.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
That's very mature.
Speaker 6 (27:24):
And now the fact making them go like waiting a
few days knowing because I know that I would do it,
and I know that if they like me a lot
and I don't like them, I know they'll spend the
next two few days going should I message?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Should I not?
Speaker 6 (27:36):
What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,
do you want to hang out this weekend? And then
I'll take two days to reply and then I'll be like, hey,
just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been
really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit
to do to someone. I think with online dating now
is that it's given you the excuse where you can
have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.
You have the excuse of it being like so much
(27:58):
more casual and so much more chill. I know a
lot of women don't like doing it in person because
I like, you can feel unsafe a sometimes, and I
think just like message them, just them like straight after
or a day after, and be like I've been thinking
about it. I don't want to see you again, but
I'd much prefer that then kind of like making what
I think is happening a bigger deal in.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
My head for it to just be crushed with a
ghosting their confusion.
Speaker 5 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of
January
Speaker 5 (28:42):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
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