December 23, 2025 • 19 mins
Open marriages have been quite the topic on the show this year so when we were deciding which shows to bring you as part of Our Most Talked About Conversations summer listening, this episode was a no-brainer.
Mindy Kaling recently revealed she chose solo motherhood because she didn't want to compromise on money, career decisions, or parenting choices. She joins a growing number of high-profile women who are reimagining traditional approaches to family, marriage and relationships. We unpack the rise of intentional solo parenting and non-traditional family structures.
Plus, everyone's talking about this surprise TV hit of the year (and no, it's not The White Lotus). We discuss why it's capturing everyone's attention.
And in our recommendations: jelly beans vs brussels sprouts in an unexpected health showdown, and Mia discovers a soothing video trend that's helping her unwind.
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What to read:
- 'After 20 years, we opened up our marriage. Here are the rules that worked for us.'
- 'I asked my husband if we could open our marriage. Here's what happened.'
- 'I went out for a drink with another man. I came home to an open marriage.'
- The 'grey divorce' phenomenon that no one's talking about.
- 'The perks of divorce nobody talks about. But everyone should hear.'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a mom with Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, I am Jesse Stevens, and Welcome to Mummy. Are
out Loud. This summer, we have curated a special out
Loud playlist with some of our favorite and also our
most talked about conversations, so that your holiday listening is sorted.
Today's episode, Open Marriages and the New Kind of Divorce,
(00:36):
is a discussion we had back in March about high
profile women like Mindy Kayling who want children and are
choosing to create families on their own terms. Mea, Holly
and I unpack the rise of intentional solo parenting and
non traditional family structures. We also talk about modern day curses.
(00:56):
Plus Maya shares a soothing video trend on YouTube that
helped her to unwind, which is what we all need
right now, so let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
For generations, the narrative went a bit like this girl
falls in love with boy, gets married, has children in
that order.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
But in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Five, people who want kids are creating families on.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Their own terms. Like Collie.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
She's not married because nobody wants to put a ring
on it, and yet she has two children and a
long term boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
For those who do want kids.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Reproductive technology and the relaxation of social mores have turned
having a family into a bit of a choose your
own adventure. I think we can all agree, but not
everybody is happy about that, which we will get to
because these days there are options. Women are using sperm
banks to become single mothers, same sex couples are using
donors and surrogates to have children, and there are thrupples
(01:49):
raising kids and polyamorous parents. Interviewed a few of those,
and of course this is on top of blended families.
I grew up in one of those when it was
pretty rare, but now it's very bog standard common. But
the point is that there's no longer a set way
to be a mother if you want to be.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And this week Mindy Kayla, who.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
We last saw sitting under a balloon arch with Megan
Markle at the World's Saddest Children's Party without the children,
she has spoken about the family that she's made on
the Dax Shepherd podcast. She is a writer, producer and actor.
Of course she's chosen to be a single mum. She's
(02:28):
got three little kids who are seven, four and one,
and she's kept them totally out of the public eye
even during her pregnant seeds, which is pretty unusual in Hollywood.
We spoke earlier in the week about secret pregnan seeds.
She kind of did that. She just sort of announced
that she had the children, and she's never said who
their biological father is. Here's what she said on Dax's podcast,
(02:52):
where she spoke about why she chose to have kids
on her own.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, you know, I felt when I was a kid,
I'm definitely getting married because I love romantic love and
I love men and romance, and I'm definitely gonna have children.
And then when I got into my twenties and I
had a couple pretty unfulfilling relationships, and then I was
in my thirties, I was like, I don't know. I
knew that I wanted children, but I was old enough
(03:18):
at that point and had enough sort of disposable income
and had seen so many acrimonious divorces. I hope this
doesn't sound bad, and this is not going to be
relatable to a lot of listeners, But a person would
have built up their career and their nest egg and
then they have a divorce in half of their money,
so that should happen in most cases, and California laws
a reason to protect families, and I get it, but
I was like, damn, I don't want that exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Not that it's all about the money.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
And so this romantic part of me that was like,
you're going to find your Darcy was like, well what
if Darcy.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Chicks out my body and.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Then takes half my money? And then I have these.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Fantasies because I'm insane, where I'm like, it's going to
take half my money and his bitch wife they'll get
a fucking fifth Avenue.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Apartment you didn't let yourself buy.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah, and then my office residuals from playing Kelly, They're
going to be sending their kids to Dalton in the
Upper West Side or whatever while I'm childless. Because I
have revenge phantasies not healthy at all. I was like,
I don't want my money to go to this hypothetical
ex and his new family. I also was like, I
want to have Christmas and things giving with my children
every year because I'm a raider and also unsane, these
(04:22):
fantasies where I'm like, so I would be then alone
where my children were going to this other person's house.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
She basically went on to say that she didn't want
to compromise, so there was the fear of divorce. But
then also she's saying, I didn't really want to compromise.
I love my work.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I loved my job.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
I've decided I had space for work and children and
that was that. And I don't want to waste my
time picking out a sweater for my imaginary sister in law, etc.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It was a pretty bleak view, and it's interesting because
she said her parents had a great marriage, but she
saw the idea of a co parent as being very
much liability.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
I found it very refreshing because you don't hear women
talking like that. I was driving my car when I
heard her, when I was listening to that, and I
wanted to pull over and make a note because I've
got no because I was like hearing a woman talk
so honestly about money. Yeah, and not wanting to compromise
and not wanting to care for someone else is just
something that women don't say.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's out loud.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I have a few friends who have decided to have
babies on their own, and there are elements of that
I've heard. Because if you're in your mid thirties, then
you've likely had a few relationships that haven't worked and
they've gone. None of those men were fit to raise
children with me. I'm so glad that I didn't have
children with those men. And I think sometimes they're looking
(05:40):
around at friends or circumstances. I know someone who recently
had a baby and it maybe six months. The husband
walked out and she ended up doing it on her own.
Single mothers raising children have always existed. Oh yeah, it's
just that now it can be a choice.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
But also what I hadn't heard before is the talking
about the financial component, right, because that is unrelatable. As
Mindy says herself, she's like she was in a position
where she's like, I've got a fortune. I want to
protect it now normally that's what you hear men say.
And she's like, I want to protect my fortune, but
also my fortune has afforded me choice.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think exercise the fortune is the key here, because
I think and I also know women who've chosen to
have children without a father involved via sperm donation, and
it's tough. It's really tough when you are the only parent,
because not only do you miss out on having a
(06:35):
co parent, you miss out on having the family of
the co parent. Now that's not always a good thing,
but there is certainly some safety nets and some more
people involved in your child's life that you become the
single point of failure.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
That's true, But that also assumes that those things are
always good, you know, as you just said, it's not
like so. I think that people do what they do
and money is a massive factor on this and choices.
But saying oh, but you don't get the support assumes
that everyone who's married or partnered or whatever has the
support of their in lives, not always true lives near
them there around.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
There's a lot of married women who are raising children
on their own.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
My point is that sometimes you might think, I don't
want to have to compromise with just a partner. There's
a lot else that you don't have. My own point
is that it's many hands make light work.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, yes, And I think criticizing those I think what's interesting,
and we're going to kind of get into this more
is romanticizing different visions of families, right, because there's imperfections
and constraints in really any way that you put together
a family. And Miranda July who wrote All Fours, which
we loved, one of our favorite books from last year.
(07:46):
It was a book about a woman who was, I suppose,
trying to throw off some of the shackles of motherhood
and long term monogamy. And she has this newsletter and
has been sort of compiling examples of non traditional marriages
as she calls them, and she has people writing here
because she left.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
What was her story again? Just remind me, because I
know the book she it mirrored her life a little
bit because she was married to a man, had a child.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I think they might have opened up their relationship.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Yeah, the plot in All Fours, if you haven't read it,
it's not a linear divorce plot, and nor is what
she's exploring it through her newsletter is it's this idea
of different models of family.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So she didn't leave.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
She stayed, but they opened up their relationship and she
started exploring relationships with women which she'd had in the past,
and he got a girlfriend, but they stayed a family
unit for a period of time and then that changed.
And what she does through her sub stack is she
encourages other people living in non traditional families to share
their stories and they're really varied.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They're really really varied. So one example is ethical non monogamy.
For example, there's a woman who writes in and she's queer.
She's in a long term relationship with a man, but
she explores that other part of herself while still being married.
There's also something called polly solo, which I hadn't heard,
and that is when a few of the women write
(09:09):
about the man therewith having affairs and they don't mind.
They're not in a sexual era and they just go,
I'm happy to be on my own and you do
what you need to do. Spousal caregiver this was another one.
So there was one who wrote in about her husband's illness.
So this seems to be not entirely uncommon when you're
(09:32):
in a relationship and maybe that relationship is fractured or
you're thinking about ending it and life throws you a
really serious diagnosis. And the amount of women who stay
with them because they know that when you are nearing
the end of your life, you need people. There were
others that were in the midst of a breakup when
the la fires happened, and so that emergency meant that
(09:55):
there was almost like a trauma bond like they had
to stay together. Another example was nesting or living a
part together. And this is also about finances, like how.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Couples do that.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah I knew of So they not together, but they
just take it in turns like someone stay.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Living together or they stay living as a romantic couple.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah right, So in fact, it was a childhood wrote
in and said, growing up, my parents were split, but
they were amicable, and they lived in the same house.
One was upstairs, one was downstairs. They even had other relationships.
Someone would come in, someone would leave, but they lived
in the same house. And what I found reading about these,
I thought, chances are that these sorts of arrangements have
(10:40):
existed for a lot longer.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
One hundred percent. Then I think that's I think they've
always been around. But they've always been around. Now we
can give them cute little names.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And also now in some circles at least you can
talk about it, because I think you're one hundred percent right.
There have always been couples who can't afford to separate
but stay living together until the kids leave home. There
have always been couples who choose not to live together
but stay in a relationship, because that's another thing here
was like long distance, or we're dating, but we have
(11:09):
separate houses, or we're committed, but we have separate houses.
There have always been women or men who will turn
to blind eye or actively engage in the idea that
their partner's having sex with someone else because their familial
bond is the most important, and that they are entirely
bonded together through sickness and health and all of the
things that go along with having a family, but they're
(11:29):
not romantically in love anymore. All of that I think
has always existed, but now it feels like we're allowed
to maybe whisper it a little bit louder.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Unsurprisingly, this has given way to somewhat of a moral panic.
So there are some people looking at this going, are
we presenting women with an unrealistic fantasy of novelty of
life being about sort of multiple sexual partners, as though
that doesn't come with its own issues. Freddi de Boa,
(12:02):
who we've talked about on this show before, wrote a
newsletter about Miranda July, and he basically argued that this
fantasy version that Miranda July is selling people doesn't actually
exist for anyone, and he said that in twenty twenty five,
what the media sells is permission, and that's what women
are looking for. Permission.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
What does that mean and how does it not exist?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Because women are literally describing their families and they're unconventioned.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
But what his theory is is that the people subscribing
to this newsletter and reading it are in traditional marriages
looking for permission to leave, to change that, to evolve
that marriage. I would say, what's wrong with that? He's
basically suggesting this is contagious and if you think that
your life is going to be easier when you leave,
(12:51):
it's not. And you're chasing this fantasy that doesn't exist.
That's the thing about fancy.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
That's very patronized.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I would argue that the fantasy is actually the other
way around. I think that I agree. What this is
is giving a whispered voice in some very small corners.
But the fantasy that we've all been sold since the
day we first put a little bridal veil on or
a baby doll, that you will meet someone, you will
fall madly in love. We will follow this timeline. You
(13:17):
will stay together forever. You will always be obsessed with them,
you will always want to have lots of sex with them.
They will always treat you really well, and you will
always treat them really well, and you'll always feel fulfilled.
That is a fantasy we have had shoved down our
throats forever. Yeah, that's the fantasy. Because most, well not most,
but a lot of relationships are not that neat. Not
to say they're not good, or they're not fulfilling, or
they're not exciting, or they're not but they're not that neat.
(13:40):
This is speaking more to the messy reality. But it
unnerves people because it's like, oh, so we're not pretending anymore,
we're not just going along with Like I know he
sleeps with other people, but no one could ever find
that out because it would be so humiliating for me.
This is more of women saying like, maybe that's what
we have to do to stay together, and maybe it's
(14:01):
not humiliating for me.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
What's interesting to me is to explore whether, and of
course it's different for every person, whether people are doing
this for themselves or for their kids, or it's.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
A combination of both.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
By that, I mean whether they're finding ways to give
their children a sort of a family experience, and maybe
it is staying with the father or the co parent
of that child, and that it's good for the children,
or whether it's I just need to live my life
beyond my identity, is just a parent and I'm not
(14:37):
fulfilled and that's the most important thing. And I'm sure
it's a bit of both.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
It is and I think with Deboa, and I find
that he's writing interesting. I found this to suggest that
the contagion exists within women. Leaving is almost comical, because
a contagion is staying, Like I think that that's where
people feel the pressure most of all. And happy women
are not leaving the marriage.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Spoken like a man who's worried that his wife's going.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
To get Yeah, I happy women are not reading a
newsletter and going all lots of sex and leaving my children.
That is not how women's minds work. Like I think
that if you've been in a marriage for a lot
of years and you're going, I'm not happy, then exploring
what other options look like can feel empowering. And in
(15:23):
one of mirandogalized emails, she kind of had things to
consider before blowing up your life, because she says you
can blow up your life or maybe you're not ready
to do that like, maybe here are some things to consider.
And she has this line, which is keep an eye
on death and who you want to be as you
near it, And this suggested to me, is there something
about the kind of later in life shift in marriages
(15:46):
and in relationships where people looking around and going this
isn't how I want to spend.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
One hundred percent? I interviewed a woman on mid for
an episode we did called Who Cares Who You Sleep With?
This woman had been married, she was forty, she'd been
married for a while, and in her early forties she
had a child. She came out as bisexual, and the
people around her were all like, why would you do that?
Like why would you tell people? Why would you feel
(16:12):
a need to come out as bisexual? Like ick, like
who cares about you? What does it matter what you want?
Like just if you want to do that, just do that?
But I don't like tell people. And she was like,
well who cares?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I care?
Speaker 5 (16:25):
You know, She's like, don't I get to be me?
Like when I agreed to get married and have a child,
did I also agree? And some people would say absolutely
yes to your point before about self expression, that all
my needs and who I really am? Is then frozen
in time and also is a shameful secret or am
I allowed to evolve and change? And she said, in
(16:49):
the same way that people might say to a teen
who is talking about their sexuality, Oh, it's a phase,
she said. Everyone said to her, it's a mid life crisis. Oh,
And it's really interesting ways that we dismiss people's feelings
and say you'll get over that.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And she was like, but I.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Don't want to live the rest of my life pretending
to be someone.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I'm not true, because women have always been not just encouraged,
but expected to subjugate our own identities and our own
desires and be mother first.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And there's a part of that that's a cent right.
But it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I interviewed Rowan Mangan on No Filter a number of
years ago, and she was part of a throuple and
she fell in love with these two women who had
been married for a really long time, Martha Beck and
her wife Karen, and they had adult children, and Rowan
was sort of a generation younger, and the three of
(17:46):
them entered into a committed relationship and Rowan wanted to
have a baby, and she had this baby, and she
spoke a lot about we don't know how anyone does
it with less than three wives, Like we often say
to each other, God, it just I'm at work and
the child's sick at daycare and one.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Person picked up the child and the other person's doing something,
and she talks about this.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It does sound pretty utopian, to be honest, And I
love this idea of you know, you can't be what
you can't see, and I love that there are so
many more models, But I also think that just like
you can't be what you can't see, I think you
don't know what parenting is going to be like until
you become one. And I think that while on paper
(18:30):
it can look great in terms of I don't have
to compromise, I don't share my money, but it can
be harder than it looks. And I'm not saying that
in any condescending way. I know that from single mothers
that say that.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
To be wary of being too flippant about the single
mother transition, like Missy Higgins has spoken about, you know,
I'm no longer with my children's dad, and this is
not where I want to be. This is really really hard. Yeah,
And I think that there would be a lot of
single mothers who maybe see some of these stories or
listen to some women who might have more resources than
(19:05):
they do and think this season a fantasy. This is
really really hard. I don't have support, I don't have respite.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Renting family home on your own in anything close to
a city is almost impossible. But then on the other
hand of that, it's always been the case that finances
play a large part in why couple stay together.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of January.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a mom with Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, I am Jesse Stevens, and Welcome to Mummy. Are
out Loud. This summer, we have curated a special out
Loud playlist with some of our favorite and also our
most talked about conversations, so that your holiday listening is sorted.
Today's episode, Open Marriages and the New Kind of Divorce,
(00:36):
is a discussion we had back in March about high
profile women like Mindy Kayling who want children and are
choosing to create families on their own terms. Mea, Holly
and I unpack the rise of intentional solo parenting and
non traditional family structures. We also talk about modern day curses.
(00:56):
Plus Maya shares a soothing video trend on YouTube that
helped her to unwind, which is what we all need
right now, so let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
For generations, the narrative went a bit like this girl
falls in love with boy, gets married, has children in
that order.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
But in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Five, people who want kids are creating families on.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Their own terms. Like Collie.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
She's not married because nobody wants to put a ring
on it, and yet she has two children and a
long term boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
For those who do want kids.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Reproductive technology and the relaxation of social mores have turned
having a family into a bit of a choose your
own adventure. I think we can all agree, but not
everybody is happy about that, which we will get to
because these days there are options. Women are using sperm
banks to become single mothers, same sex couples are using
donors and surrogates to have children, and there are thrupples
(01:49):
raising kids and polyamorous parents. Interviewed a few of those,
and of course this is on top of blended families.
I grew up in one of those when it was
pretty rare, but now it's very bog standard common. But
the point is that there's no longer a set way
to be a mother if you want to be.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And this week Mindy Kayla, who.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
We last saw sitting under a balloon arch with Megan
Markle at the World's Saddest Children's Party without the children,
she has spoken about the family that she's made on
the Dax Shepherd podcast. She is a writer, producer and actor.
Of course she's chosen to be a single mum. She's
(02:28):
got three little kids who are seven, four and one,
and she's kept them totally out of the public eye
even during her pregnant seeds, which is pretty unusual in Hollywood.
We spoke earlier in the week about secret pregnan seeds.
She kind of did that. She just sort of announced
that she had the children, and she's never said who
their biological father is. Here's what she said on Dax's podcast,
(02:52):
where she spoke about why she chose to have kids
on her own.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, you know, I felt when I was a kid,
I'm definitely getting married because I love romantic love and
I love men and romance, and I'm definitely gonna have children.
And then when I got into my twenties and I
had a couple pretty unfulfilling relationships, and then I was
in my thirties, I was like, I don't know. I
knew that I wanted children, but I was old enough
(03:18):
at that point and had enough sort of disposable income
and had seen so many acrimonious divorces. I hope this
doesn't sound bad, and this is not going to be
relatable to a lot of listeners, But a person would
have built up their career and their nest egg and
then they have a divorce in half of their money,
so that should happen in most cases, and California laws
a reason to protect families, and I get it, but
I was like, damn, I don't want that exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Not that it's all about the money.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
And so this romantic part of me that was like,
you're going to find your Darcy was like, well what
if Darcy.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Chicks out my body and.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Then takes half my money? And then I have these.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Fantasies because I'm insane, where I'm like, it's going to
take half my money and his bitch wife they'll get
a fucking fifth Avenue.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Apartment you didn't let yourself buy.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Yeah, and then my office residuals from playing Kelly, They're
going to be sending their kids to Dalton in the
Upper West Side or whatever while I'm childless. Because I
have revenge phantasies not healthy at all. I was like,
I don't want my money to go to this hypothetical
ex and his new family. I also was like, I
want to have Christmas and things giving with my children
every year because I'm a raider and also unsane, these
(04:22):
fantasies where I'm like, so I would be then alone
where my children were going to this other person's house.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
She basically went on to say that she didn't want
to compromise, so there was the fear of divorce. But
then also she's saying, I didn't really want to compromise.
I love my work.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I loved my job.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
I've decided I had space for work and children and
that was that. And I don't want to waste my
time picking out a sweater for my imaginary sister in law, etc.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It was a pretty bleak view, and it's interesting because
she said her parents had a great marriage, but she
saw the idea of a co parent as being very
much liability.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
I found it very refreshing because you don't hear women
talking like that. I was driving my car when I
heard her, when I was listening to that, and I
wanted to pull over and make a note because I've
got no because I was like hearing a woman talk
so honestly about money. Yeah, and not wanting to compromise
and not wanting to care for someone else is just
something that women don't say.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's out loud.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I have a few friends who have decided to have
babies on their own, and there are elements of that
I've heard. Because if you're in your mid thirties, then
you've likely had a few relationships that haven't worked and
they've gone. None of those men were fit to raise
children with me. I'm so glad that I didn't have
children with those men. And I think sometimes they're looking
(05:40):
around at friends or circumstances. I know someone who recently
had a baby and it maybe six months. The husband
walked out and she ended up doing it on her own.
Single mothers raising children have always existed. Oh yeah, it's
just that now it can be a choice.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
But also what I hadn't heard before is the talking
about the financial component, right, because that is unrelatable. As
Mindy says herself, she's like she was in a position
where she's like, I've got a fortune. I want to
protect it now normally that's what you hear men say.
And she's like, I want to protect my fortune, but
also my fortune has afforded me choice.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think exercise the fortune is the key here, because
I think and I also know women who've chosen to
have children without a father involved via sperm donation, and
it's tough. It's really tough when you are the only parent,
because not only do you miss out on having a
(06:35):
co parent, you miss out on having the family of
the co parent. Now that's not always a good thing,
but there is certainly some safety nets and some more
people involved in your child's life that you become the
single point of failure.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
That's true, But that also assumes that those things are
always good, you know, as you just said, it's not
like so. I think that people do what they do
and money is a massive factor on this and choices.
But saying oh, but you don't get the support assumes
that everyone who's married or partnered or whatever has the
support of their in lives, not always true lives near
them there around.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
There's a lot of married women who are raising children
on their own.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
My point is that sometimes you might think, I don't
want to have to compromise with just a partner. There's
a lot else that you don't have. My own point
is that it's many hands make light work.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, yes, And I think criticizing those I think what's interesting,
and we're going to kind of get into this more
is romanticizing different visions of families, right, because there's imperfections
and constraints in really any way that you put together
a family. And Miranda July who wrote All Fours, which
we loved, one of our favorite books from last year.
(07:46):
It was a book about a woman who was, I suppose,
trying to throw off some of the shackles of motherhood
and long term monogamy. And she has this newsletter and
has been sort of compiling examples of non traditional marriages
as she calls them, and she has people writing here
because she left.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
What was her story again? Just remind me, because I
know the book she it mirrored her life a little
bit because she was married to a man, had a child.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I think they might have opened up their relationship.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Yeah, the plot in All Fours, if you haven't read it,
it's not a linear divorce plot, and nor is what
she's exploring it through her newsletter is it's this idea
of different models of family.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
So she didn't leave.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
She stayed, but they opened up their relationship and she
started exploring relationships with women which she'd had in the past,
and he got a girlfriend, but they stayed a family
unit for a period of time and then that changed.
And what she does through her sub stack is she
encourages other people living in non traditional families to share
their stories and they're really varied.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They're really really varied. So one example is ethical non monogamy.
For example, there's a woman who writes in and she's queer.
She's in a long term relationship with a man, but
she explores that other part of herself while still being married.
There's also something called polly solo, which I hadn't heard,
and that is when a few of the women write
(09:09):
about the man therewith having affairs and they don't mind.
They're not in a sexual era and they just go,
I'm happy to be on my own and you do
what you need to do. Spousal caregiver this was another one.
So there was one who wrote in about her husband's illness.
So this seems to be not entirely uncommon when you're
(09:32):
in a relationship and maybe that relationship is fractured or
you're thinking about ending it and life throws you a
really serious diagnosis. And the amount of women who stay
with them because they know that when you are nearing
the end of your life, you need people. There were
others that were in the midst of a breakup when
the la fires happened, and so that emergency meant that
(09:55):
there was almost like a trauma bond like they had
to stay together. Another example was nesting or living a
part together. And this is also about finances, like how.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Couples do that.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah I knew of So they not together, but they
just take it in turns like someone stay.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Living together or they stay living as a romantic couple.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah right, So in fact, it was a childhood wrote
in and said, growing up, my parents were split, but
they were amicable, and they lived in the same house.
One was upstairs, one was downstairs. They even had other relationships.
Someone would come in, someone would leave, but they lived
in the same house. And what I found reading about these,
I thought, chances are that these sorts of arrangements have
(10:40):
existed for a lot longer.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
One hundred percent. Then I think that's I think they've
always been around. But they've always been around. Now we
can give them cute little names.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
And also now in some circles at least you can
talk about it, because I think you're one hundred percent right.
There have always been couples who can't afford to separate
but stay living together until the kids leave home. There
have always been couples who choose not to live together
but stay in a relationship, because that's another thing here
was like long distance, or we're dating, but we have
(11:09):
separate houses, or we're committed, but we have separate houses.
There have always been women or men who will turn
to blind eye or actively engage in the idea that
their partner's having sex with someone else because their familial
bond is the most important, and that they are entirely
bonded together through sickness and health and all of the
things that go along with having a family, but they're
(11:29):
not romantically in love anymore. All of that I think
has always existed, but now it feels like we're allowed
to maybe whisper it a little bit louder.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Unsurprisingly, this has given way to somewhat of a moral panic.
So there are some people looking at this going, are
we presenting women with an unrealistic fantasy of novelty of
life being about sort of multiple sexual partners, as though
that doesn't come with its own issues. Freddi de Boa,
(12:02):
who we've talked about on this show before, wrote a
newsletter about Miranda July, and he basically argued that this
fantasy version that Miranda July is selling people doesn't actually
exist for anyone, and he said that in twenty twenty five,
what the media sells is permission, and that's what women
are looking for. Permission.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
What does that mean and how does it not exist?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Because women are literally describing their families and they're unconventioned.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
But what his theory is is that the people subscribing
to this newsletter and reading it are in traditional marriages
looking for permission to leave, to change that, to evolve
that marriage. I would say, what's wrong with that? He's
basically suggesting this is contagious and if you think that
your life is going to be easier when you leave,
(12:51):
it's not. And you're chasing this fantasy that doesn't exist.
That's the thing about fancy.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
That's very patronized.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I would argue that the fantasy is actually the other
way around. I think that I agree. What this is
is giving a whispered voice in some very small corners.
But the fantasy that we've all been sold since the
day we first put a little bridal veil on or
a baby doll, that you will meet someone, you will
fall madly in love. We will follow this timeline. You
(13:17):
will stay together forever. You will always be obsessed with them,
you will always want to have lots of sex with them.
They will always treat you really well, and you will
always treat them really well, and you'll always feel fulfilled.
That is a fantasy we have had shoved down our
throats forever. Yeah, that's the fantasy. Because most, well not most,
but a lot of relationships are not that neat. Not
to say they're not good, or they're not fulfilling, or
they're not exciting, or they're not but they're not that neat.
(13:40):
This is speaking more to the messy reality. But it
unnerves people because it's like, oh, so we're not pretending anymore,
we're not just going along with Like I know he
sleeps with other people, but no one could ever find
that out because it would be so humiliating for me.
This is more of women saying like, maybe that's what
we have to do to stay together, and maybe it's
(14:01):
not humiliating for me.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
What's interesting to me is to explore whether, and of
course it's different for every person, whether people are doing
this for themselves or for their kids, or it's.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
A combination of both.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
By that, I mean whether they're finding ways to give
their children a sort of a family experience, and maybe
it is staying with the father or the co parent
of that child, and that it's good for the children,
or whether it's I just need to live my life
beyond my identity, is just a parent and I'm not
(14:37):
fulfilled and that's the most important thing. And I'm sure
it's a bit of both.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
It is and I think with Deboa, and I find
that he's writing interesting. I found this to suggest that
the contagion exists within women. Leaving is almost comical, because
a contagion is staying, Like I think that that's where
people feel the pressure most of all. And happy women
are not leaving the marriage.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Spoken like a man who's worried that his wife's going.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
To get Yeah, I happy women are not reading a
newsletter and going all lots of sex and leaving my children.
That is not how women's minds work. Like I think
that if you've been in a marriage for a lot
of years and you're going, I'm not happy, then exploring
what other options look like can feel empowering. And in
(15:23):
one of mirandogalized emails, she kind of had things to
consider before blowing up your life, because she says you
can blow up your life or maybe you're not ready
to do that like, maybe here are some things to consider.
And she has this line, which is keep an eye
on death and who you want to be as you
near it, And this suggested to me, is there something
about the kind of later in life shift in marriages
(15:46):
and in relationships where people looking around and going this
isn't how I want to spend.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
One hundred percent? I interviewed a woman on mid for
an episode we did called Who Cares Who You Sleep With?
This woman had been married, she was forty, she'd been
married for a while, and in her early forties she
had a child. She came out as bisexual, and the
people around her were all like, why would you do that?
Like why would you tell people? Why would you feel
(16:12):
a need to come out as bisexual? Like ick, like
who cares about you? What does it matter what you want?
Like just if you want to do that, just do that?
But I don't like tell people. And she was like,
well who cares?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I care?
Speaker 5 (16:25):
You know, She's like, don't I get to be me?
Like when I agreed to get married and have a child,
did I also agree? And some people would say absolutely
yes to your point before about self expression, that all
my needs and who I really am? Is then frozen
in time and also is a shameful secret or am
I allowed to evolve and change? And she said, in
(16:49):
the same way that people might say to a teen
who is talking about their sexuality, Oh, it's a phase,
she said. Everyone said to her, it's a mid life crisis. Oh,
And it's really interesting ways that we dismiss people's feelings
and say you'll get over that.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And she was like, but I.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Don't want to live the rest of my life pretending
to be someone.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I'm not true, because women have always been not just encouraged,
but expected to subjugate our own identities and our own
desires and be mother first.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
And there's a part of that that's a cent right.
But it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I interviewed Rowan Mangan on No Filter a number of
years ago, and she was part of a throuple and
she fell in love with these two women who had
been married for a really long time, Martha Beck and
her wife Karen, and they had adult children, and Rowan
was sort of a generation younger, and the three of
(17:46):
them entered into a committed relationship and Rowan wanted to
have a baby, and she had this baby, and she
spoke a lot about we don't know how anyone does
it with less than three wives, Like we often say
to each other, God, it just I'm at work and
the child's sick at daycare and one.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Person picked up the child and the other person's doing something,
and she talks about this.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It does sound pretty utopian, to be honest, And I
love this idea of you know, you can't be what
you can't see, and I love that there are so
many more models, But I also think that just like
you can't be what you can't see, I think you
don't know what parenting is going to be like until
you become one. And I think that while on paper
(18:30):
it can look great in terms of I don't have
to compromise, I don't share my money, but it can
be harder than it looks. And I'm not saying that
in any condescending way. I know that from single mothers
that say that.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
To be wary of being too flippant about the single
mother transition, like Missy Higgins has spoken about, you know,
I'm no longer with my children's dad, and this is
not where I want to be. This is really really hard. Yeah,
And I think that there would be a lot of
single mothers who maybe see some of these stories or
listen to some women who might have more resources than
(19:05):
they do and think this season a fantasy. This is
really really hard. I don't have support, I don't have respite.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Renting family home on your own in anything close to
a city is almost impossible. But then on the other
hand of that, it's always been the case that finances
play a large part in why couple stay together.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of January.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
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