January 4, 2026 • 26 mins
Season 3 of The White Lotus gave us a new iconic female friendship group. So why is the glossy, toxic dynamic of Laurie, Jaclyn and Kate cringingly familiar?
Plus, ‘Maybe you’re not actually trying’. It’s a Substack post that stopped us in our tracks and it’s reframed everything we thought we knew about energy and effort. Mia has just one question that can determine your personality type.
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What to read:
- As Elon Musk’s custody battles are dragged into the spotlight, one video speaks volumes.
- The White Lotus just nailed the ugly friendship dynamic we all recognise.
- From Koh Samui to Phuket: All of The White Lotus Season 3 filming locations.
- Two experts just identified the three words at the core of all adult friendship issues.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a Mum with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, I'm Jesse Stevens, and this summer we have curated
your out loud playlist. We are bringing you some of
our most talked about conversations for you to revisit during
the holidays. And today's episode is about ugly female friendships.
It was inspired, you may remember, by the toxic dynamic
(00:38):
in season three of The White Lotus between Laurie, Jacqueline
and Kate and the fact that so many of us found.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It cringingly familiar.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Plus, we discuss a brutal essay about how for a
lot of us, there is a thing in our life
that we're struggling with and maybe if we really think
about it, we're not trying that hard to fix it. It
stopped us in our tracks and it reframed everything we
thought we knew about energy and effort.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Whether or not you're watching the Whiteloadus, you can't look
at a screen this week without seeing the faces of
three female friends. They are Laurie, Jacqueline, and Kate, and
they all swan into reception on episode one of the
very popular, very successful Prestige TV show. In their designer
caftans in a cloud of you look fabulous and with
(01:30):
big cocktail energy. Jacqueline is a Hollywood actress. She's married
to a hot, younger man. Kate's career is unclear, but
she is married to a high profile rich man in Austin, Texas.
And Laurie is a lawyer and a single mum who
lives in New York. They're all wealthy and conventionally beautiful,
although Jacqueline is clearly paying for everything, and there's a
possibility that Lurie.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Hasn't had botox.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
You don't tell anyone if you're super keen to dive
into white LOADUS. We did do a whole episode about
that for subscribers yesterday, But even if you've never seen it,
what these three characters have sparked is a conversation about
female friendships. Because what's quickly revealed, particularly in the first
few minutes episode two, is that these old old friends,
who apparently have all known each other since they were
(02:15):
nine and they went to school together, are on a
girl's trip, and who hasn't been on one of those?
And they are not quite the mutual cheerleaders they appear.
Here's a little bit of their girl talk.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I know you said, she agreed.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
Wow, she does, but she also looks tired, don't you
think a little down? He's a drinking She did drink like.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
A whole bottle tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I just love her so much.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Welcome to the Birth of a thousand memes. Hot takes
about toxic female friendships and ponderings about whether female friendship,
which is so exalted in our culture, is really just
a passive, aggressive smoke screen hiding all our insecurities. Jesse,
have you been Kate Jacqueline Laurie?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I absolutely have.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I was watching this the other night with Luca,
who paused it and said, this is what I struggle
with when it comes to female friendship and interest. Just
to be like clear, Luca spends a lot of time
with women, Like he works in a female office, and
you know, a lot of our friends and everything of women,
So he has definitely seen signs of this behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But we were talking.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
About it and I said, they are not my friendships anymore.
Like I totally recognize it. That's why I think that
it's brilliant. I have been part of it. I have
had that feeling of you can nearly hear what they're
saying about you as you leave the room of someone
attempting intimacy with you by bitching about the outsider, Like,
(03:53):
totally recognize that. But I don't think that this is
some universal truth about female friendships. I think it's a
specific type. But it was funny because I was speaking
to my mum about it this morning. I said, you
know this, I don't recognize it as much anymore, and
Mum said, oh, no, they're not my friendship's either, except
for Suzanne. You know what Suzanne's like.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And I was like, it's a little bit of.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
What I'm rolling my eyes at you so hard. All
female friendships are like this.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Absolutely I worry about And I was like, maybe I'm.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Just the lorry. It's just not like and I'm just
totally naive, not nice, Susan, I'm exactly.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
We should mention that you changed the name. Surely you've
been in that group chat where you've said something and
then there's a little bit of silence in the group
chat and you can practically hear everyone else going off
to the other group chat to talk about you and
the insane thing you just said. Maybe that's just me, No, no, no, absolutely,
And I think I'm here to kind of defend this
(05:00):
instinct amongst women, which seems like a tall order, but
hear me out. I think what we're essentially talking about
is gossip. And you're essentially saying that women don't gossip
about their friends if they're mature or and nice, which
I don't think is true.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think they gossip, but I think that what is
underlying this gossip is a very specific thing.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
But continue.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
I think that the reason why women gossip is two reasons.
The first is that women have to put up with
maintaining relationships much more than men do. To put it
another way, maintaining friendships and relationships is more important to
a lot of women than it is to a lot
of men. And one way that you can maintain and
upkeep relationships is by sharing information, particularly information that is
(05:42):
prized because it is rare, or it is secret, or
not a lot of people know it. That's what gossip is, essentially.
It's a way of fast tracking intimacy. So that's the
first reason why I think women do it. The second
reason why I think women do it is because information
for women can be really valuable, and of course it
can be for men too. But let me give you
an example again from Pete Hegseth, Because isn't actually except
(06:04):
the opposite of ye, yeah, I know his sister in
law came out and said that she knew a safe
word that his wife had told her, and she came
up with this because that's a fact, and it shows
that this woman is in an abusive relationship. Now, the
way you get to talk about things like this is
you have to open the floodgates. You have to share
intimate information with your friends. Yes, and in some lights,
(06:27):
sure you could say talking about someone else's marriage is gossip,
but in some ways it can often really be a
way of ensuring that your friends are safe.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But and that's the thing, that's the intention, right, So absolutely,
if there was a situation where I thought that my
friend was marrying an awful person, if I thought that,
if I was worried about them, absolutely I might go
to someone else and say that, And that might genuinely
be coming from a place of concern. In this instance,
(06:55):
it isn't. I keep looking at these three women and going,
you don't like each other. You fundamentally don't like each other.
You don't have that much in common. And the reason
they have to keep going behind each other's backs is
because nothing they say to each other's faces is true.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
So why are they hanging out if they don't.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Like you because of a shared history.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And I think there's something specific here about maybe people
you went to school with and the dynamics of a
group you went to school with, because you're sort of
the thing you're attracted to is the history and the
mythology and the story that you've got that you've been
friends from school, You've actually grown up in totally different
directions and you don't know each other anymore. They don't
(07:35):
know why the friend is divorced. If they could sit
there and just go, my marriage fell apart because I cheated,
or I have an alcohol problem, or actually my career
is not going that well, then they wouldn't be craving
that gossip behind the scenes. I think that that's they're
craving the intimacy because it's not happening with the three
of them.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Also, the picture we're being painted here is a three
very sort of aspirational women who look on the outside
like everything is perfect. Like that's why the main thing
they say to each other all the time is you
look amazing. Amazing, Like it's just over and over. It's
all about the outside, right, and they're not really interested
in the inside. I think you're both right, because I
(08:16):
think that way more female friendships than we like to
acknowledge are exactly like this. I know I've been those people.
I know I've been those people who are like going, oh,
you know, it's so great to be with you, and
I love you so much. But then you know there's
someone will be like she looks a bit, and you're like,
like that, We've all been there, right, I personally have
rules about which I think whether or not I'm prepared
to gossip about. He probably tells you whether or not
(08:37):
you're really a good friend, do you know what I mean? Like,
because people always want to know. We've got to remember,
in this dynamic, one of them is famous, right, Jacqueline
is famous and super successful, and so she's always going
to be at the top of the leaderboard. To use amrism, right,
And I recognize this because I have some Jacquelines in
my life. They're called Mera and Jesse, And there's an
(09:01):
argument we're all Jaquelines for appointment. Anyway, I wish, I wish,
But anyway, people will always if they meet me, get
to know me, like they're friends of friends, they're in
my circle somehow they want information about you guys. Right,
they'll be like, is Mia lot do they really like
each other? That must be so weird working with your mother. Well,
obviously that must be so weird working with your mother
in law. And you know they're just chip chip chip
(09:23):
chip chipping, and they're thinking maybe if she has another wine,
like you know what I mean, that they'll get some
gossip closed door policy on that for me, right, absolutely
not and so but you know with Mia and Jesse,
I will gossip about it about each other. Yeah, but
also they and it's like a very good friend of
mine who went through a divorce. Everybody else in the circle.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
How she doing?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
What's really the story about that divorce? Like dig dig
dig No closed book, absolutely, but within the little confines
of that very close friendship group, of course she will
talk about.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
That and why people ask why they're getting divorced, how
she's doing, et cetera. Divorce is one of those things
where it is about information sharing, and when people hear
that someone has gotten divorced, they want to make sure
they avoid that faith themselves that's why they're digging for information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I think the question of are these people and I'm
part of friendship groups that you know, might be from
my past or whatever, where if I'm honest with myself,
I've gone, these people aren't rooting for you. They in fact,
a lot of their behavior suggests they don't actually like you,
which is an awful realization, but you go, they're just not.
You can tell when someone's rooting for you, and these
(10:31):
women aren't. And you know, Holly, you're talking about MEA
and me and you, and I'm sure that there's elements
and dynamics that can be complicated, but are you rooting
for each other?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yes? Yes, So if there's a thing behind your back
where it's like, oh, do you think that me is
a bit stressed at the moment, You're not.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Saying it to undermine her or to create some little
gang behind her back. It's actually there's kind of faux concern,
and then there is genuine, yes, real concern.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Because there are times when you do need to say
to somebody, do you think that this person who I
love some help?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Like?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
There are times when you need to do that and
you have to pick very carefully who that person is.
The thing that's interesting about this is what Lucas said
when he saw it, and he said, this is one
of the things I have trouble with about women. I
totally understand what he means, because this dynamic, like Mike White,
who writes White Loadus, is very clever, and I'm sure
it's going to go in all kinds of interesting directions,
but it is a very familiar trope, you know. I
(11:29):
was thinking about how when Harry met Sally is like
can men and women really be friends? I think there's
a question of like, can women and women.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Really be friends?
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Like we are constantly pitted in competition with each other,
who's more beautiful, who's got fewer wrinkles, who's richer, who's
got a hotter husband, who's got like and it's like
this constant and professional success. Of course, I mean it's
a well worn trope, but I think there's truth to it.
Is that we've always been convinced there isn't enough to
go around for us, so we have.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
To Can competitiveness coexist with friendship? Do you think, like,
if you're feeling genuinely competitive, I'm thinking about my really
really close friends, and I'm a very competitive person.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I don't feel competitive with them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Is that like, do you think that that's something that
because here you can see that they're all competing for
various things like is this a trope or is this
a genuine reflection of female friendship.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
I think they're competing, but not necessarily in the way
that we're discussing here. I think they're competing with each
other for intimacy. And there's a dynamic with girls trips
where they tend to be with people who maybe don't
see every day. That's why you're going on a trip
with them, and you have to catch up on all
these months or years of daily chats in a very
(12:39):
intense three day period or what have you. And I
think that one way to get there is to sort
of immediately start with the existential questions, is this person okay?
Does this person have a drinking problem? What's this person's
marriage like? And it's almost like that's the dynamic of
a girl's trip. You often get to the heart of.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Things a little too quickly, and when someone, even just
one of them, let's the perfect story go, because they're
all trying to tell each other perfect stories about how
life is just one of them. Would let that go,
then I think the quality of the friendship would just skyrocket.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I read an.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Essay over the weekend so that, on the surface, posited
quite a simple idea, but I have not stopped thinking
about it. Kate Hall published a substack piece called maybe
You're Not Actually Trying, and she begins by telling this
story about a stalker she had years ago, and after
a particularly bad experience with this stalker, she writes, and
(13:33):
now if I thought and snapped into action, except that
I didn't. Instead, I curled up in a ball and
cried and told friends who suggested contacting the police, that
there was no point that no one would be able
to help. In the end, it was her husband who
contacted all the right people and Boom sorted it all out. Now,
this isn't to minimize stalking, and it's an imperfect example
because for a lot of people it is a really,
(13:55):
really difficult thing to address.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But the reason she used.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
This example was because she said, why did it take
another person getting involved for me to realize I wasn't
actually trying?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And she goes on to.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Nut out this idea of selective agency and capable people
and how there are three theaters in our lives. So
we've got work, say, we've got relationships, and there's other
And she says that we all know of the high
achieving boss who can't seem to hold down a relationship,
or the person at work who will throw everything at
a complex problem and fix it, and yet they're feeling
(14:30):
ill but won't take the first step of.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Going to the doctor right.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And her suggestion is that we all assume that there's
some area of our lives where we are without realizing it,
frozen in time, and she challenges us.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
To locate it. Maia, do you relate to this?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I also read this essay and was really struck by
it because the most interesting part of the story is
about when she thinks about it later. There's a period
of time from when it starts happening. It goes on
for years that this person's essentially stalking her and emailing her,
and it's year later when it sort of escalates that
(15:09):
her husband says, please, can you let me get involved?
And he sorts it out, and what she realizes is
that the time in her life when he first came in,
she was at a very different time in her life
and she felt that she wasn't capable of it, and
she sort of got frozen in that, and she didn't
realize that several years down the track she was in
(15:30):
a much better position to deal with it, but she
got stuck into that headspace of I can't.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
It's an unfixable problem, fixable problem.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And I really relate to this idea of everything's ruined,
nothing can fix it, like I will sometimes get like that,
And the only way I can describe how it feels
inside is that I do feel about six or seven
years old or even younger, and I'm stamping my foot
and I'm like, it's all ruined. I can't, I can't.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I thought about what it was in my life. What
am I not actually trying at? And yet I'm putting
a lot of effort in, but I'm not actually trying,
Like I'm not really workshopping this problem. I wondered if
there was a clue for all of us in our
word of the year. If our word of the year
is often the thing that we've not actually that we
value but we've actually not tried at. So mine is creativity.
(16:20):
I've been talking about it. Oh yeah, I took a
big game about how I'm going to be really creative. Yes,
there's this Simpsons quote that says something like, we've tried
nothing and we're all out of ideas. That's my approach
to creativity. Have I done anything? No, but I'm going
I just can't. How will I write a book? I've
virtually tried nothing, but the helplessness of it, I'm quite
(16:41):
stuck in.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Do you think that's sometimes whole because there have been
years when we've all done our word of the year
and we've really failed. Do you think that's about just
outsourcing our word of the year and not trying, but going,
I've made it my word of the year, so it
will magically have it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It's sort of that word of the year is not
so I don't actually have to knup anything. It's already done. Yeah.
I think that's a very true, very good insight, Jesse.
I'm really interested in this idea of high agency viduals
and low agency individuals because I immediately can pick people
in my life now. I know that this is because
she said, as you've said, Jesse, think about the different
(17:17):
theaters as she calls them, relationships work, and then she
says kind of self care and what she means by
that is not massages and stuff. It's like health therapy, exercise,
you know, like eating well, like looking after yourself. So
think about those three areas. You might be high agency
in one but not in others. But there are definitely
people who are just more high agencies. The definition of
these two broadly are high agency individuals are proactive, see
(17:40):
themselves as shapers of their own destiny, and actively work
to overcome obstacles. Mia, I think you are probably high agency.
You're like when I come to you with a problem,
You're like, do this and this and this, and I'm like, okay.
Low agency individuals tend to be more passive, reactive, and
feel a greater sense of helplessness or external control over
(18:02):
their circumstances. So when you kind of go, well, you know,
it's just complicated and I just cut you know.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
And it's like the difference between me and my friend Penny,
for example, who I will talk about like, oh, we
need to get a new bathroom or something. I'd probably
talk about that for two years. And in the first
three sentences of me saying that she's already packed up
her bathroom, called the builder got twenty five tile samples like,
you know, whatever it is, is your bias to action
(18:29):
or is your bias to pondering? Do you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
To your point? I think I am sometimes too high
agency because I just also want to fix everybody else's problems,
which is like, can be quite controlling. I get exasperated
by people who are low agency, and I'll give you
an example. I think a really good indicator of high
agency low agency. I'm so baffled by people who don't
(18:52):
get their driver's license, because to me, that's the ultimate
in agency.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I think you're exactly right, But do you know how
old I was when I got my license? Hold like
late twenties.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
What not late twenties? You before that?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I reckon, you met me before I had a driver's Like,
are you serious?
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Not to me?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I put outside licenses in a particular basket of I'm
going to be harsh and say victims. I don't really
mean that, but passivity, like I've got no agency in
my life. Help me understand.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Funny, but I think that that's it is a good example.
Although you could put a lot of circumstances that do
you live in a good public transport, like all of
those things but I get what you mean. Though you're
not driving your You're literally not driving your l you
are relying on other people to drive you whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That looks like.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
That is definitely true. But I think it's really interesting
how you can be high agency in some areas because
if you think about those theaters of work relationships, self care.
In work, I do try hard, like I get most
things done. I take on more projects.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I do want to want not very high agency with you,
not always.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Like really effectively like that. I'm a bit of a
procrastinator at time, but I do a lot. But then say,
how long have you guys been listening to me talk lately?
I mean over the years you've talked about many things
the French, but like about how I'm gonna like embrace exercise. Yes,
year again, because I've been through phases where I really
have or meditation or whatever, like I bang on and
(20:22):
on and I've got to look after myself more, got
to look out.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Remember you were buying a new car for like six years.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yes, like very I can be very low agency. Whereas
so even though I'm supposed to be looking after myself better,
I'm like putting off doctor's appointments, because I haven't got
time for that, and I didn't get that test they needed,
and you know what, I'll just let that roll. So
her theory would be that side of myself is stuck
somewhere and it needs unsticking, whereas the work side of
myself is not stuck.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's in motion. It's jes same with you. I don't
think you can work in digital media, or certainly you
can't be successful in digital media without having high agency,
because there's not a lot of time to just sit
around and wait for something to happen. You've got to
make it happen or get left behind.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I think it's probably that your energy is finite and
that we spend it in that might not be conscious
or chosen, but that a lot of people are incredibly
effective at work and are not so effective when they walk.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
In the door at home.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But I think that a piece of this puzzle is
learned helplessness, right. So that's a psychological concept that sort
of suggests that if you've had a series of negative
life events happen, particularly in childhood, you begin to think
that basically you have no bearing on the world around you.
So I remember, we learned in psychology about this experiment
(21:36):
that they did with an elephant, and they got the
elephant and put ropes around the elephant's ankle when the
elephant was a baby, and it would struggle and struggle
and struggle, and eventually, even when it got really really
big and it was a grown up elephant and one struggle,
it would have been released from this rope. But by
that point it had stopped trying because it was just like,
I'm struck to this rope.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
This is what my life is like.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
So, oh, that's sad. That's like the Romanian orphans who
don't cry because they know that no one's coming.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Exactly exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So there's a piece of this puzzle which is about
negative life speriences, about things like domestic violence.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I think when you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Go are you trying, there's an element of why are
you still in that relationship? Which is a really complicated yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
So it's the wrong way to pick up this piece
of information about like are you really trying is not
to go all the problems in your life are your
fault because you're not trying. It's much more complicated than that,
but on a more sort of simple, high level yeah,
of things that we know that at other times in
our life, when we have applied ourselves to it in
(22:37):
the same manner that we bring to an area where
we have high agency, we can shift the dial.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Like, I felt as though I was at a particular
place in my late teens twenties where I had that
sort of propensity towards depression, and in times in my
life when I've been particularly anxious and depressed, this is
the first thing I go to.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No problem is solvable, I just throw my arms up.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's a feeling of overwhelm. Yes, yes, And you're saying
more than overwhelmed, it's helplessness and hopelessness.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, yeah, like, And the correlation tween learned helplessness and
depression is I mean, they're like the same thing, which is,
if you walk around the world thinking you have no impact,
it's probably healthier to think you have more of an
impact on the world than you actually do.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That your choices.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
So there are two types of people, people who think
that their choices will have a real bearing on what
happens in their lives and the world.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
And in fact, apparently the older you get, a lot
of older people start to fall into the learned helplessness
because I think they look at their lives and go,
I don't really have that much control.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I remember being in a terrible relationship, an abusive relationship,
and I held all the cards. It was so weird
because on paper, I had all the agency. He was
living in my apartment, he was driving my car. I
had the job. He was unemployed, he was a drug addict.
I wasn't. I had family, support and friends and he didn't.
And yet he did such a number on me over
(23:58):
a couple of years that I had this learned helplessness
and hopelessness to the point where I didn't feel like
I had any agency. And I remember a close girlfriend
of mine said, kick out, change the locks, get the
cleaners in, and get him out of your life. And
that felt like an impossible thing for me to say.
And it wasn't, ironically, until he went overseas and I
had that space from him that I was able to
(24:20):
end it. But then years later I saw her in
the same situation and I said the same thing to
her and she couldn't recognize it, and she couldn't do it.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
This is really interesting about people telling you because one
of the things that is written in this newsletter is
she says, apply yourself in the areas where you know
your low agency, but you could be high agency, you
know what I mean, not necessarily for complex reasons. How
have I done my best to come up with a
set of potential solutions using all the resources I have?
Am I doing as well by myself as I would
buy any friend who came to me with the same problem.
(24:51):
So you know how people often say that to you,
like what would you say to a friend in this situation?
And it's an interesting thought experiment, but it's not so
much a personality type as your story just shows as
where you are in that moment, because your friend had
all the answers until it was her problem, and then
she needed you to have all the answers. And although
you might not act with high agency in that moment,
(25:13):
you might file it away and get.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
That which what your friend did is really I think
like the bedrock of therapy, right is that you feel
like you're stuck with all these positions and you can
sit there and the therapist who often leads you to your
own conclusions because they ask questions, and they ask questions.
But it might get to a point where it's like, oh, well,
I could leave my job, and it's like, yeah, you could,
you know what I mean. Like it kind of leads
(25:36):
you to a point of choice rather than rumination, which
I have.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
A therapist who once called it a thought trap, because
kids can get into this a bit where it's just
like no, be I can't. We'll try it, No, but
I can't. Maybe it's not kids, maybe it's a certain
type of people. But I also, back to what you
said about childhood, I think it can go both ways,
because I think if all your needs get met as
a child, then you can just feel like it's out
(26:02):
of your control and someone else will meet them. But
at the same time, if your needs don't get met,
you learn will I have to do it myself, So
I better have agency or I'm going to be screwed.
What an interesting essay. We will put a link to
it in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of
January
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a Mum with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, I'm Jesse Stevens, and this summer we have curated
your out loud playlist. We are bringing you some of
our most talked about conversations for you to revisit during
the holidays. And today's episode is about ugly female friendships.
It was inspired, you may remember, by the toxic dynamic
(00:38):
in season three of The White Lotus between Laurie, Jacqueline
and Kate and the fact that so many of us found.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It cringingly familiar.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Plus, we discuss a brutal essay about how for a
lot of us, there is a thing in our life
that we're struggling with and maybe if we really think
about it, we're not trying that hard to fix it. It
stopped us in our tracks and it reframed everything we
thought we knew about energy and effort.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Whether or not you're watching the Whiteloadus, you can't look
at a screen this week without seeing the faces of
three female friends. They are Laurie, Jacqueline, and Kate, and
they all swan into reception on episode one of the
very popular, very successful Prestige TV show. In their designer
caftans in a cloud of you look fabulous and with
(01:30):
big cocktail energy. Jacqueline is a Hollywood actress. She's married
to a hot, younger man. Kate's career is unclear, but
she is married to a high profile rich man in Austin, Texas.
And Laurie is a lawyer and a single mum who
lives in New York. They're all wealthy and conventionally beautiful,
although Jacqueline is clearly paying for everything, and there's a
possibility that Lurie.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Hasn't had botox.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
You don't tell anyone if you're super keen to dive
into white LOADUS. We did do a whole episode about
that for subscribers yesterday, But even if you've never seen it,
what these three characters have sparked is a conversation about
female friendships. Because what's quickly revealed, particularly in the first
few minutes episode two, is that these old old friends,
who apparently have all known each other since they were
(02:15):
nine and they went to school together, are on a
girl's trip, and who hasn't been on one of those?
And they are not quite the mutual cheerleaders they appear.
Here's a little bit of their girl talk.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I know you said, she agreed.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
Wow, she does, but she also looks tired, don't you
think a little down? He's a drinking She did drink like.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
A whole bottle tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I just love her so much.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Welcome to the Birth of a thousand memes. Hot takes
about toxic female friendships and ponderings about whether female friendship,
which is so exalted in our culture, is really just
a passive, aggressive smoke screen hiding all our insecurities. Jesse,
have you been Kate Jacqueline Laurie?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I absolutely have.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I was watching this the other night with Luca,
who paused it and said, this is what I struggle
with when it comes to female friendship and interest. Just
to be like clear, Luca spends a lot of time
with women, Like he works in a female office, and
you know, a lot of our friends and everything of women,
So he has definitely seen signs of this behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But we were talking.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
About it and I said, they are not my friendships anymore.
Like I totally recognize it. That's why I think that
it's brilliant. I have been part of it. I have
had that feeling of you can nearly hear what they're
saying about you as you leave the room of someone
attempting intimacy with you by bitching about the outsider, Like,
(03:53):
totally recognize that. But I don't think that this is
some universal truth about female friendships. I think it's a
specific type. But it was funny because I was speaking
to my mum about it this morning. I said, you
know this, I don't recognize it as much anymore, and
Mum said, oh, no, they're not my friendship's either, except
for Suzanne. You know what Suzanne's like.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And I was like, it's a little bit of.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
What I'm rolling my eyes at you so hard. All
female friendships are like this.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Absolutely I worry about And I was like, maybe I'm.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Just the lorry. It's just not like and I'm just
totally naive, not nice, Susan, I'm exactly.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
We should mention that you changed the name. Surely you've
been in that group chat where you've said something and
then there's a little bit of silence in the group
chat and you can practically hear everyone else going off
to the other group chat to talk about you and
the insane thing you just said. Maybe that's just me, No, no, no, absolutely,
And I think I'm here to kind of defend this
(05:00):
instinct amongst women, which seems like a tall order, but
hear me out. I think what we're essentially talking about
is gossip. And you're essentially saying that women don't gossip
about their friends if they're mature or and nice, which
I don't think is true.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think they gossip, but I think that what is
underlying this gossip is a very specific thing.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
But continue.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
I think that the reason why women gossip is two reasons.
The first is that women have to put up with
maintaining relationships much more than men do. To put it
another way, maintaining friendships and relationships is more important to
a lot of women than it is to a lot
of men. And one way that you can maintain and
upkeep relationships is by sharing information, particularly information that is
(05:42):
prized because it is rare, or it is secret, or
not a lot of people know it. That's what gossip is, essentially.
It's a way of fast tracking intimacy. So that's the
first reason why I think women do it. The second
reason why I think women do it is because information
for women can be really valuable, and of course it
can be for men too. But let me give you
an example again from Pete Hegseth, Because isn't actually except
(06:04):
the opposite of ye, yeah, I know his sister in
law came out and said that she knew a safe
word that his wife had told her, and she came
up with this because that's a fact, and it shows
that this woman is in an abusive relationship. Now, the
way you get to talk about things like this is
you have to open the floodgates. You have to share
intimate information with your friends. Yes, and in some lights,
(06:27):
sure you could say talking about someone else's marriage is gossip,
but in some ways it can often really be a
way of ensuring that your friends are safe.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
But and that's the thing, that's the intention, right, So absolutely,
if there was a situation where I thought that my
friend was marrying an awful person, if I thought that,
if I was worried about them, absolutely I might go
to someone else and say that, And that might genuinely
be coming from a place of concern. In this instance,
(06:55):
it isn't. I keep looking at these three women and going,
you don't like each other. You fundamentally don't like each other.
You don't have that much in common. And the reason
they have to keep going behind each other's backs is
because nothing they say to each other's faces is true.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
So why are they hanging out if they don't.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Like you because of a shared history.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And I think there's something specific here about maybe people
you went to school with and the dynamics of a
group you went to school with, because you're sort of
the thing you're attracted to is the history and the
mythology and the story that you've got that you've been
friends from school, You've actually grown up in totally different
directions and you don't know each other anymore. They don't
(07:35):
know why the friend is divorced. If they could sit
there and just go, my marriage fell apart because I cheated,
or I have an alcohol problem, or actually my career
is not going that well, then they wouldn't be craving
that gossip behind the scenes. I think that that's they're
craving the intimacy because it's not happening with the three
of them.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Also, the picture we're being painted here is a three
very sort of aspirational women who look on the outside
like everything is perfect. Like that's why the main thing
they say to each other all the time is you
look amazing. Amazing, Like it's just over and over. It's
all about the outside, right, and they're not really interested
in the inside. I think you're both right, because I
(08:16):
think that way more female friendships than we like to
acknowledge are exactly like this. I know I've been those people.
I know I've been those people who are like going, oh,
you know, it's so great to be with you, and
I love you so much. But then you know there's
someone will be like she looks a bit, and you're like,
like that, We've all been there, right, I personally have
rules about which I think whether or not I'm prepared
to gossip about. He probably tells you whether or not
(08:37):
you're really a good friend, do you know what I mean? Like,
because people always want to know. We've got to remember,
in this dynamic, one of them is famous, right, Jacqueline
is famous and super successful, and so she's always going
to be at the top of the leaderboard. To use amrism, right,
And I recognize this because I have some Jacquelines in
my life. They're called Mera and Jesse, And there's an
(09:01):
argument we're all Jaquelines for appointment. Anyway, I wish, I wish,
But anyway, people will always if they meet me, get
to know me, like they're friends of friends, they're in
my circle somehow they want information about you guys. Right,
they'll be like, is Mia lot do they really like
each other? That must be so weird working with your mother. Well,
obviously that must be so weird working with your mother
in law. And you know they're just chip chip chip
(09:23):
chip chipping, and they're thinking maybe if she has another wine,
like you know what I mean, that they'll get some
gossip closed door policy on that for me, right, absolutely
not and so but you know with Mia and Jesse,
I will gossip about it about each other. Yeah, but
also they and it's like a very good friend of
mine who went through a divorce. Everybody else in the circle.
Speaker 5 (09:44):
How she doing?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
What's really the story about that divorce? Like dig dig
dig No closed book, absolutely, but within the little confines
of that very close friendship group, of course she will
talk about.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
That and why people ask why they're getting divorced, how
she's doing, et cetera. Divorce is one of those things
where it is about information sharing, and when people hear
that someone has gotten divorced, they want to make sure
they avoid that faith themselves that's why they're digging for information.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I think the question of are these people and I'm
part of friendship groups that you know, might be from
my past or whatever, where if I'm honest with myself,
I've gone, these people aren't rooting for you. They in fact,
a lot of their behavior suggests they don't actually like you,
which is an awful realization, but you go, they're just not.
You can tell when someone's rooting for you, and these
(10:31):
women aren't. And you know, Holly, you're talking about MEA
and me and you, and I'm sure that there's elements
and dynamics that can be complicated, but are you rooting
for each other?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yes? Yes, So if there's a thing behind your back
where it's like, oh, do you think that me is
a bit stressed at the moment, You're not.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Saying it to undermine her or to create some little
gang behind her back. It's actually there's kind of faux concern,
and then there is genuine, yes, real concern.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Because there are times when you do need to say
to somebody, do you think that this person who I
love some help?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Like?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
There are times when you need to do that and
you have to pick very carefully who that person is.
The thing that's interesting about this is what Lucas said
when he saw it, and he said, this is one
of the things I have trouble with about women. I
totally understand what he means, because this dynamic, like Mike White,
who writes White Loadus, is very clever, and I'm sure
it's going to go in all kinds of interesting directions,
but it is a very familiar trope, you know. I
(11:29):
was thinking about how when Harry met Sally is like
can men and women really be friends? I think there's
a question of like, can women and women.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Really be friends?
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Like we are constantly pitted in competition with each other,
who's more beautiful, who's got fewer wrinkles, who's richer, who's
got a hotter husband, who's got like and it's like
this constant and professional success. Of course, I mean it's
a well worn trope, but I think there's truth to it.
Is that we've always been convinced there isn't enough to
go around for us, so we have.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
To Can competitiveness coexist with friendship? Do you think, like,
if you're feeling genuinely competitive, I'm thinking about my really
really close friends, and I'm a very competitive person.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I don't feel competitive with them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Is that like, do you think that that's something that
because here you can see that they're all competing for
various things like is this a trope or is this
a genuine reflection of female friendship.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
I think they're competing, but not necessarily in the way
that we're discussing here. I think they're competing with each
other for intimacy. And there's a dynamic with girls trips
where they tend to be with people who maybe don't
see every day. That's why you're going on a trip
with them, and you have to catch up on all
these months or years of daily chats in a very
(12:39):
intense three day period or what have you. And I
think that one way to get there is to sort
of immediately start with the existential questions, is this person okay?
Does this person have a drinking problem? What's this person's
marriage like? And it's almost like that's the dynamic of
a girl's trip. You often get to the heart of.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Things a little too quickly, and when someone, even just
one of them, let's the perfect story go, because they're
all trying to tell each other perfect stories about how
life is just one of them. Would let that go,
then I think the quality of the friendship would just skyrocket.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I read an.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Essay over the weekend so that, on the surface, posited
quite a simple idea, but I have not stopped thinking
about it. Kate Hall published a substack piece called maybe
You're Not Actually Trying, and she begins by telling this
story about a stalker she had years ago, and after
a particularly bad experience with this stalker, she writes, and
(13:33):
now if I thought and snapped into action, except that
I didn't. Instead, I curled up in a ball and
cried and told friends who suggested contacting the police, that
there was no point that no one would be able
to help. In the end, it was her husband who
contacted all the right people and Boom sorted it all out. Now,
this isn't to minimize stalking, and it's an imperfect example
because for a lot of people it is a really,
(13:55):
really difficult thing to address.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But the reason she used.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
This example was because she said, why did it take
another person getting involved for me to realize I wasn't
actually trying?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And she goes on to.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Nut out this idea of selective agency and capable people
and how there are three theaters in our lives. So
we've got work, say, we've got relationships, and there's other
And she says that we all know of the high
achieving boss who can't seem to hold down a relationship,
or the person at work who will throw everything at
a complex problem and fix it, and yet they're feeling
(14:30):
ill but won't take the first step of.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Going to the doctor right.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And her suggestion is that we all assume that there's
some area of our lives where we are without realizing it,
frozen in time, and she challenges us.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
To locate it. Maia, do you relate to this?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I also read this essay and was really struck by
it because the most interesting part of the story is
about when she thinks about it later. There's a period
of time from when it starts happening. It goes on
for years that this person's essentially stalking her and emailing her,
and it's year later when it sort of escalates that
(15:09):
her husband says, please, can you let me get involved?
And he sorts it out, and what she realizes is
that the time in her life when he first came in,
she was at a very different time in her life
and she felt that she wasn't capable of it, and
she sort of got frozen in that, and she didn't
realize that several years down the track she was in
(15:30):
a much better position to deal with it, but she
got stuck into that headspace of I can't.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
It's an unfixable problem, fixable problem.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And I really relate to this idea of everything's ruined,
nothing can fix it, like I will sometimes get like that,
And the only way I can describe how it feels
inside is that I do feel about six or seven
years old or even younger, and I'm stamping my foot
and I'm like, it's all ruined. I can't, I can't.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I thought about what it was in my life. What
am I not actually trying at? And yet I'm putting
a lot of effort in, but I'm not actually trying,
Like I'm not really workshopping this problem. I wondered if
there was a clue for all of us in our
word of the year. If our word of the year
is often the thing that we've not actually that we
value but we've actually not tried at. So mine is creativity.
(16:20):
I've been talking about it. Oh yeah, I took a
big game about how I'm going to be really creative. Yes,
there's this Simpsons quote that says something like, we've tried
nothing and we're all out of ideas. That's my approach
to creativity. Have I done anything? No, but I'm going
I just can't. How will I write a book? I've
virtually tried nothing, but the helplessness of it, I'm quite
(16:41):
stuck in.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Do you think that's sometimes whole because there have been
years when we've all done our word of the year
and we've really failed. Do you think that's about just
outsourcing our word of the year and not trying, but going,
I've made it my word of the year, so it
will magically have it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
It's sort of that word of the year is not
so I don't actually have to knup anything. It's already done. Yeah.
I think that's a very true, very good insight, Jesse.
I'm really interested in this idea of high agency viduals
and low agency individuals because I immediately can pick people
in my life now. I know that this is because
she said, as you've said, Jesse, think about the different
(17:17):
theaters as she calls them, relationships work, and then she
says kind of self care and what she means by
that is not massages and stuff. It's like health therapy, exercise,
you know, like eating well, like looking after yourself. So
think about those three areas. You might be high agency
in one but not in others. But there are definitely
people who are just more high agencies. The definition of
these two broadly are high agency individuals are proactive, see
(17:40):
themselves as shapers of their own destiny, and actively work
to overcome obstacles. Mia, I think you are probably high agency.
You're like when I come to you with a problem,
You're like, do this and this and this, and I'm like, okay.
Low agency individuals tend to be more passive, reactive, and
feel a greater sense of helplessness or external control over
(18:02):
their circumstances. So when you kind of go, well, you know,
it's just complicated and I just cut you know.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
And it's like the difference between me and my friend Penny,
for example, who I will talk about like, oh, we
need to get a new bathroom or something. I'd probably
talk about that for two years. And in the first
three sentences of me saying that she's already packed up
her bathroom, called the builder got twenty five tile samples like,
you know, whatever it is, is your bias to action
(18:29):
or is your bias to pondering? Do you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
To your point? I think I am sometimes too high
agency because I just also want to fix everybody else's problems,
which is like, can be quite controlling. I get exasperated
by people who are low agency, and I'll give you
an example. I think a really good indicator of high
agency low agency. I'm so baffled by people who don't
(18:52):
get their driver's license, because to me, that's the ultimate
in agency.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I think you're exactly right, But do you know how
old I was when I got my license? Hold like
late twenties.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
What not late twenties? You before that?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I reckon, you met me before I had a driver's Like,
are you serious?
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Not to me?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I put outside licenses in a particular basket of I'm
going to be harsh and say victims. I don't really
mean that, but passivity, like I've got no agency in
my life. Help me understand.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Funny, but I think that that's it is a good example.
Although you could put a lot of circumstances that do
you live in a good public transport, like all of
those things but I get what you mean. Though you're
not driving your You're literally not driving your l you
are relying on other people to drive you whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That looks like.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
That is definitely true. But I think it's really interesting
how you can be high agency in some areas because
if you think about those theaters of work relationships, self care.
In work, I do try hard, like I get most
things done. I take on more projects.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I do want to want not very high agency with you,
not always.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Like really effectively like that. I'm a bit of a
procrastinator at time, but I do a lot. But then say,
how long have you guys been listening to me talk lately?
I mean over the years you've talked about many things
the French, but like about how I'm gonna like embrace exercise. Yes,
year again, because I've been through phases where I really
have or meditation or whatever, like I bang on and
(20:22):
on and I've got to look after myself more, got
to look out.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Remember you were buying a new car for like six years.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Yes, like very I can be very low agency. Whereas
so even though I'm supposed to be looking after myself better,
I'm like putting off doctor's appointments, because I haven't got
time for that, and I didn't get that test they needed,
and you know what, I'll just let that roll. So
her theory would be that side of myself is stuck
somewhere and it needs unsticking, whereas the work side of
myself is not stuck.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's in motion. It's jes same with you. I don't
think you can work in digital media, or certainly you
can't be successful in digital media without having high agency,
because there's not a lot of time to just sit
around and wait for something to happen. You've got to
make it happen or get left behind.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I think it's probably that your energy is finite and
that we spend it in that might not be conscious
or chosen, but that a lot of people are incredibly
effective at work and are not so effective when they walk.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
In the door at home.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
But I think that a piece of this puzzle is
learned helplessness, right. So that's a psychological concept that sort
of suggests that if you've had a series of negative
life events happen, particularly in childhood, you begin to think
that basically you have no bearing on the world around you.
So I remember, we learned in psychology about this experiment
(21:36):
that they did with an elephant, and they got the
elephant and put ropes around the elephant's ankle when the
elephant was a baby, and it would struggle and struggle
and struggle, and eventually, even when it got really really
big and it was a grown up elephant and one struggle,
it would have been released from this rope. But by
that point it had stopped trying because it was just like,
I'm struck to this rope.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
This is what my life is like.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
So, oh, that's sad. That's like the Romanian orphans who
don't cry because they know that no one's coming.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Exactly exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So there's a piece of this puzzle which is about
negative life speriences, about things like domestic violence.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I think when you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Go are you trying, there's an element of why are
you still in that relationship? Which is a really complicated yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
So it's the wrong way to pick up this piece
of information about like are you really trying is not
to go all the problems in your life are your
fault because you're not trying. It's much more complicated than that,
but on a more sort of simple, high level yeah,
of things that we know that at other times in
our life, when we have applied ourselves to it in
(22:37):
the same manner that we bring to an area where
we have high agency, we can shift the dial.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Like, I felt as though I was at a particular
place in my late teens twenties where I had that
sort of propensity towards depression, and in times in my
life when I've been particularly anxious and depressed, this is
the first thing I go to.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No problem is solvable, I just throw my arms up.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's a feeling of overwhelm. Yes, yes, And you're saying
more than overwhelmed, it's helplessness and hopelessness.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, yeah, like, And the correlation tween learned helplessness and
depression is I mean, they're like the same thing, which is,
if you walk around the world thinking you have no impact,
it's probably healthier to think you have more of an
impact on the world than you actually do.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That your choices.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
So there are two types of people, people who think
that their choices will have a real bearing on what
happens in their lives and the world.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
And in fact, apparently the older you get, a lot
of older people start to fall into the learned helplessness
because I think they look at their lives and go,
I don't really have that much control.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I remember being in a terrible relationship, an abusive relationship,
and I held all the cards. It was so weird
because on paper, I had all the agency. He was
living in my apartment, he was driving my car. I
had the job. He was unemployed, he was a drug addict.
I wasn't. I had family, support and friends and he didn't.
And yet he did such a number on me over
(23:58):
a couple of years that I had this learned helplessness
and hopelessness to the point where I didn't feel like
I had any agency. And I remember a close girlfriend
of mine said, kick out, change the locks, get the
cleaners in, and get him out of your life. And
that felt like an impossible thing for me to say.
And it wasn't, ironically, until he went overseas and I
had that space from him that I was able to
(24:20):
end it. But then years later I saw her in
the same situation and I said the same thing to
her and she couldn't recognize it, and she couldn't do it.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
This is really interesting about people telling you because one
of the things that is written in this newsletter is
she says, apply yourself in the areas where you know
your low agency, but you could be high agency, you
know what I mean, not necessarily for complex reasons. How
have I done my best to come up with a
set of potential solutions using all the resources I have?
Am I doing as well by myself as I would
buy any friend who came to me with the same problem.
(24:51):
So you know how people often say that to you,
like what would you say to a friend in this situation?
And it's an interesting thought experiment, but it's not so
much a personality type as your story just shows as
where you are in that moment, because your friend had
all the answers until it was her problem, and then
she needed you to have all the answers. And although
you might not act with high agency in that moment,
(25:13):
you might file it away and get.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
That which what your friend did is really I think
like the bedrock of therapy, right is that you feel
like you're stuck with all these positions and you can
sit there and the therapist who often leads you to your
own conclusions because they ask questions, and they ask questions.
But it might get to a point where it's like, oh, well,
I could leave my job, and it's like, yeah, you could,
you know what I mean. Like it kind of leads
(25:36):
you to a point of choice rather than rumination, which
I have.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
A therapist who once called it a thought trap, because
kids can get into this a bit where it's just
like no, be I can't. We'll try it, No, but
I can't. Maybe it's not kids, maybe it's a certain
type of people. But I also, back to what you
said about childhood, I think it can go both ways,
because I think if all your needs get met as
a child, then you can just feel like it's out
(26:02):
of your control and someone else will meet them. But
at the same time, if your needs don't get met,
you learn will I have to do it myself, So
I better have agency or I'm going to be screwed.
What an interesting essay. We will put a link to
it in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
MoMA Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right across
our network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in our show notes.
We'll be back to regular programming on Monday, twelfth of
January
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
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