August 29, 2025 âĸ 45 mins
đ Guess who's back, back again… đ
Outlouders, you asked. We listened. And now, it’s happening: Amelia Lester and Stacey Hicks are officially back — and they’ve brought the one and only Monique Bowley with them. Yep, Monz has returned to the Mamamia family to bring you Parenting Out Loud.
If you love it (OF COURSE YOU WILL), make it your new Saturday ritual. Just search Parenting Out Loud, tap ‘+ follow’, and boom — parenting content with a pulse, delivered weekly.
Because when you become a parent, it changes everything. And that includes how you see what's going on in the world. So, every week we deep-dive into the trends, headlines and viral MumToks through the lens of being just that — a parent.
This week:
- Gen Z’s latest reason for giving parenthood the side-eye
- The guilt trip of not loving every second with your kids
- Amelia’s campaign to stop parental group texts (bold move)
- Stacey’s epic analogy for baby number three (you’ll never see tricycles the same way again)
Hit play and welcome to the group chat you won't want to mute.
Plus, it’s our recommendations:
đĒŠ Stacey recommends a boogie with your friends at a disco club.
đī¸ Amelia is bringing back the tried and tested hot water bottle.
đ§ Monz is a fan of this fool-proof snack: Take 8 Weet-Bix, 1/4 cup cocoa, 1 cup of desiccated coconut and a can of condensed milk. Stir all ingredients together, roll it into balls, roll in coconut and store in a bag in the freezer.
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What To Listen To Next:
- Don't miss an episode of Parenting Out Loud
- Dr Becky's DFK Theory & The Great Trampoline Debate
- The Ms Rachel Controversy & The Great Kids Vs Friendships Debate
- A New Co-Parenting Rule & The 100% Work Dilemma
- The Death Of The Dining Table & 'Outdated' Schooling
- Grandparents — It's Time For Your Performance Review
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hey, out louders, it's moms.
I have something really special dropping into your feed today.
It's called Parenting out Loud. It's everything you love about
out loud culture, explainers, trends, hot takes, sometimes cold takes,
little bit of shit talking about the biggest job in
(00:35):
the world, parenting, not being Donald Trump. FYI, you'll find
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here's the fine print. We cannot stay here forever. We
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(00:55):
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(01:16):
some time with us, but for now, settle in and
enjoy this first taste of a brand new season of
Parenting Out Loud. Hello, we are here. You asked for
this out louders, so here we are for real life IRL,
so welcome, Welcome fan. This is Parenting out Loud. This
(01:40):
is the podcast for parents who don't always listen to
parenting podcasts. We're just doing things a little bit differently,
So we read everything in parenting culture and trends so
you don't have to. So if you're thinking about it,
we're going to talk about it. I'm Monique Bowli. You
might remember me from very early days of Muma mea
out Loud. I went and I had some kids and
now I'm back slaving it up on the podcast again.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Welcome back one, Thank you. I'm Amelia Laster.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I am a magazine editor, which is funny because a
young person recently asked me what a magazine was and
I just wept silently.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I'm Stacy Higgs. I'm their deputy editor of Mum
and Maya. I also should mention I do have a
child as well, a glorious little four year old.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So here I am on today's show.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
There is a new reason why young people are saying
no to being parents.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
And a famous man said some beautiful words about being
a dad and the internet frocked it, but not all
of us did.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Plus how often do you text other parents? From mid
play date photos to post birthday party photos? Are parents
just texting each other way too much?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And if you have a third kid, if you want
a third kid, if you look at other people with
a third kid and think, oh boy, we found the
most perfect metaphor for the third child on the internet
this week.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Once you hear it, you won't be able to unhear it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But first, people lost their minds over a very different
kind of sports highlight. It wasn't sort of a game
winning kick or like a big moment. It was a
teenage boy crying. Archie Wilson, who's nineteen, fresh out of
Melbourne and chasing his dream playing college football in Nebraska,
a long way from home, and he was talking at
a press conference and he completely broke down when he
(03:23):
started talking about missing his mum and his dad and
his two little brothers.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Yeah. I got two little brothers and a moment dad. Yeah,
that's the tough part about being here. I love them
a lot. And I missed them, but it's a I mean,
they know this is what's best for me, and it's
let's I can still talk to them plenty of the phone,
and they're coming here to see the first first few games,
so I'm looking forward to that. Thanks, Thanks guys, Minor.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh my god, I could not have loved this anymore.
Initial reactions, I absolutely loved it, Like this is the
gold standard. This is where you want your kids to
get to, where they're this.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Polite and courteous and kind to the journalists afterwards, It's
just gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
The emotional range Amelia, like from the softboy energy of
like missing his family and then just snapping into complete
manners mode.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It was so lovely.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It also really made me reflect on my own experience.
I left Australia for the US when I was eighteen
to pursue my football dreams, and when I got over there,
that's true, not the college football part. I never thought
about how hard that was for my parents, and now
I look back on it and it must be like
losing a limb. So I see Archie and I see
(04:31):
the obvious bond that he has with his parents, and
I just can't help but pour one out for Archie's
parents here and thinking about the sacrifices that they've made
for him to pursue his dream.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But also in the way that they've parented him that
he feels like, okay, enough about showing his emotions like this,
because that was largely the retrick around this On the internet,
the major themes were Wow, like, his parents have done
such a good job, look at this fine young man.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, they were the real heroes, weren't they, Like they
must be so toughed. Can you imagine them sitting back
being like, yes, yes, we did. I don't know if they.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Might be sitting back going oh, like feeling guilty, tearing
at the heart strings.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Maybe I think that there's no way that you can't
watch that and know that Archie is loved and that
he loves his parents. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
The other big thing people were saying on the internet,
which was super encouraging, was we have to protect this
guy at all costs, like real men cry. This vulnerability
is strength and people responded in droves to this tender
teen moment, especially in a culture of football, and seems
very sort of marcho. It took about ten seconds for
(05:38):
this to go far or It now has around ten
million views, and there's all manner of people commenting, like
Chris Hemsworth fifty eight million followers, thank you very much.
Like even the official Bluey account hopped onto this and said,
you do he great mate?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, he's become like a national hero now, hasn't he.
Like all of the champion Aussies are shouting him out.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah. I even saw a comment from Jenna Lyons, she's
sort of the general fashion icon, real housewife of New York,
and she was in the comments loving it too.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I love Jennal lions. Looks amazing And it's interesting because
she's been sort of pushing us to think about what
it is to be a boy or a man for
some time now. Back when she was the creative director
at j Crue, when that was the fashion label that
Michelle Obama wore, it was like the hottest label in America.
There was a J Crew catalog that came out and
(06:28):
it showed Jenna painting the nails of her son, of
her young son, and there was all this predictable and
ridiculous outrage. How can she be painting her son's nails?
And her answer was just because it looks nice and
because he wants to.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, say's law there with her. I guess yeah, Like
this clip has transcended sport, fashion, kids TV.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's just it's everywhere, in case you missed it. We
all need to calm the fuck down about protein. Oh good, okay,
you have fourth permission. That's a message that was in
a great article in The Cut this week about how
the high protein craze has now taken over our toddlers. No,
the cottage cheese has come for our toplus. Now I'm
(07:09):
very happy that this message has come through. As someone
who spent one hundred and fifty dollars once on a
baby lad weaning guide, we've all done that.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Sorry, what was the format of this guide? It wasn't
even a real book. It was like a PDF form.
But I got got it and then I downloaded it.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So I did the same thing. You get tired, you
get desperate.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Sleep deprivation does crazy shitah.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And these brands come they know you're tired, Yeah, come in,
They're like, I will solve your problems. You will pay
any amount of money.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I downloaded it to my phone and then I didn't
know how to access the downloads and I never actually
used it, so this is good for me. This is
the messaging is basically just to care less. So in
the article, Rika Schwegenhausen spoke to a recipe developer and
a dietitian and they both said that when they post
recipes that are marketed as high protein, even for babies,
(08:02):
that it goes off. Everyone engages with it, everyone downloads it,
wants to cook it. When there's fiber, nothing crickets. No
one cares about fiber anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fiber has a massive pr problem, Like how can we
help them? Are big lentil and been just sitting around
the conference table being like, guys, everyone's about protein or
protein things. They're so good. What about us? How are
we going to get our message out there?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
But here's the problem with fiber.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I was told by my GP to start putting silium
husk on my porridge in the mornings, and so I
bought the cilium husk and it comes to this big
packet and it literally says on its scromptious silium husk,
and I'm like, don't know if it's seal it. Yes,
it tastes like sawdust and it makes you pooplic I
(08:52):
feel like the universe is telling me this week to
just not worry about what I'm feeding my kids, because
I did read a quote from Jennifer Ghana this week,
and look, anyone who's negotiating co parenting with Ben Affleck
already deserves a medal in my book. And she said,
kids don't care, families don't care, No one cares.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Just make it. Just make the food.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And I want that on one of those you know,
those neon signs that in the two thousands were in
like really rich people's homes and they always like had
them in the kitchen. I need one of those neon
signs in my.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Flat that says, stop putting, just don't just make us
make it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
There's a book that multiple friends of mine have all
of a sudden been swearing by, and I'm curious whether
you've heard about it. It's called Adult Children of Emotionally
Immature Parents.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Ever heard of it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, People love this book, and it's not just anecdotal.
There was a New York Times article in December of
last year about how this book that published ten years
ago has been surging in popularity. It's sold one point
two million copies, its biggest year of sales was last year.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So something's up.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
A lot of people think that they are the adult
children of emotionally immature parents. Look, it's bio clinical psychologist.
The cover copy says it's about parents who have difficulty
regulating their ow emotions, which immediately made me feel really
worried that my children are going to read that book
when they grow up, because doesn't everyone have difficulty regulating
their emotions. But the reason it's spiked, the publisher says,
(10:21):
is TikTok. There's a whole wave of content around this
idea of family estrangement. On TikTok, call it traumatok. There
are hashtags like inner child, healing, childhood wounds, and some
signs that you've experienced childhood trauma at the hands of
your parents. According to these videos, let me run you
through them. You're a people pleaser. You jiggle your legs,
people call you an old soul. You procrastinate, you have
(10:44):
a hard time asking for help. This is the human
condition human This is and maybe having too much coffee
the leg jiggling. It is a real thing that in
the last couple of years, family estrangement has seem to
really rise in prominence and popularity.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Okay, so we're seeing more of it in social media.
Does the data back it up?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
There's a psychologist who's quoted in a New Yorker article
on this topic who puts the rate of parental estrangement
in the US at about thirty percent, and he says
that it's probably much higher than that because that's just
people who are answering a survey and being prepared to
share that information. And he says that that's much higher
than it used to be. And the question is why,
And the question is does this have anything to do
(11:23):
with our extremely low fertility rates? Let me explain. Michelle Lebowitz,
who is a New York Times writer, has a theory.
She says that millennials are not having children, and the
reason why is that they think it seems too hard.
They think that parenting is too hard. They have all
these ideas about how their own parents screwed them up,
and they don't want to make those same mistakes, so
(11:45):
they're opting out of it entirely. And I think that
has the ring of truth to it. I saw a
reddit throughout the other day that said, in a generation's time,
what are going to be the complaints about our parenting,
and some of the answers were gentle parenting that just
makes you into a parental doormat, like giving in too much,
basically being overprotective, not letting children walk home from school,
(12:07):
making them stay at home until they're old enough to
vote practically, and not being allowed to go out at night.
Or bulldoze of parents. That was another really popular answer,
bulldoze of parents who bulldoze every obstacle out of their way.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm really curious if you think.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That this idea that the over therapization that is a
word I just made up, the over therapization of our
culture is in part leading to this reluctance to have kids.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Interesting theory. It's not the only thing. I mean, there's
cost of living, there's work life balance, there's access to childcare,
there's all of these other factors, mainly crushing cost of
living and housing and job insecurity. But what an interesting
theory that takes it beyond that into actually therapy culture.
I think therapy culture has has a lot to answer for.
(12:52):
It has been great in so many ways. Opening up
discussions about mental health is always going to be a
good thing, but it's not without its downsides. And I
want to talk about I just want to put on
the table the idea about friction in relationships for a minute.
So I follow this culture than analyst, I guess, And
he was talking recently about how life is very frictionless
(13:14):
for us now that tech companies have made all these
apps so that we don't have to experience much discomfort anymore,
so that when we do experience it, it feels very jarring
to us, and we're not resilient enough to handle it.
So there is this stress response I guess, where people
will just flee in an uncomfortable situation. Now, that is to say,
(13:36):
estrangement is obviously important for so many, like there would
be abuse and toxic relationships, and that's fine, But what
you're talking about now merely is like this middle ground
where people just feel uncomfortable about a relationship and so
we'll estrange themselves from their parents. And I think we're
very quick to remove friction now from our lives or
(13:57):
not be able to sit with it. So is therapy
culture making all of our relationships feel impossible to maintain
because I think also when you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Because it's holding us to impossible standards.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Completely and it's leading into friendships. So once upon a time,
you might have had a friend that was a bit
flaky and you'd roll your eyes and you'd be like, oh,
come on, get it together. But now you say, no,
these are my boundaries and you're toxic and I'm cutting
you out of my life. And like in work culture too,
I was a manager before I sat behind this microphone,
and there's certainly as a manager now you have to
(14:28):
have such a responsibility to be emotionally literate. Like there's
lots of healing and affirming and trauma proofing that you
have to do in the workplace. So is therapy culture.
As you said, Amelia, I'm making our relationships hard to maintain.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
And also just making it feel like parenting is an
impossible task, like making people feel like, well, I could
never have children because I can never be the perfect
parent that i'd want to be.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
But I think that's just the volume of information there
is now. Like I know, when I had my daughter
and was struggling in the newborn days, I had this
conversation with my mum where she was like, well, it's
just that you've got too many answers. Now, you've got
too many options. She was like, when I did it.
I just had to figure it out. And that was
kind of just her kind way of being like, can
you stop reading about wake windows and just put your
baby to sleep when they seem tired? Like you are
(15:17):
making this so hard for yourself. And I think I
had never even really thought about how I was parented
until I became a parent and started getting all these
TikTok videos that you speak of, Like I get them
come up in my algorithm all the time, saying are
you a chronic people pleaser who can sense the you know,
the atmosphere change when people's moods change in the room.
And I was like, yeah, I can, But I don't
(15:38):
think that's my parent's fault. I think that's just my
personality type. Like I think I'm just conscious of wanting
everyone to be having a nice time. That's not something
that they necessarily did wrong.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Stacy, have you had therapy before?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I only did after having my daughter, so very short
amount of sessions after having.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Do you remember like what one of the first questions
I asked you was.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
It was about my parents. It was all about the
dynamic of my parents and almost withholding from me, Ah,
I've sussed this and we're going to get to why
you're struggling with this now.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, I hear that. Like one of the first questions
you'll get asked in therapy if you can afford it
to go and have it, is tell me about your childhood,
tell me about how you were parented. And so I
don't think this is new. We are not the first
generation to agonize about having kids or to blame parents
for any psychological wobble like I think our parents were. Also,
(16:30):
they probably didn't have the language of the words around it,
but parents have them too.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
So fertility rates are at an all time low. So
millennials are on track to be the generation with the
least children in recorded history. And one point that's made
in this article is that when you have children, you
suddenly forgive your parents for all their perceived shortcomings. So
you're like, oh, this is really hard. Yeah, that's true,
and I'm just struggling to do. I find myself saying
(16:56):
to my children a line that I heard to write
my childhood, which is I'm doing the very best I can,
and why don't you appreciate the work I'm doing for you?
And all of these lines are coming out of me
because now I see that they're in fact true. Yeah,
I'm doing the best I can. Why can't you appreciate
all the work I'm doing for you? When you have children,
you realize that that's true. But if you don't have children,
(17:17):
you don't realize that's true. And I wonder if there's
a chicken and egg element here, is that what's contributing
to these really high rates of family estrangement too, because
people are not having that experience of, oh wait, my
parents are just human, just like everyone else. Another reason
I think that therapy could be contributing to more people
choosing to be child free is that there is so
much more language now around our partners and the bad
(17:40):
behaviors they might have. So you might be able to
now recognize when someone is a narcissist, or when someone
is gaslighting you, or when someone's just a bit of
a douche, and you might choose not to procreate with
them for that reason.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I don't think you necessarily need to have had a child, though,
to come to that understanding. So I've had seven years
of therapy. I've spent fortune on it, or save you
the time and the money, and part therapy one of
the best things that my therapist ever said to me
was what if they were just doing the best they
could with the tools they had, And maybe that's the
(18:12):
antidote to this therapy culture perfectionism. What if everyone is
just doing the best they can.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Pretty much everyone is doing the best they can. Apart
from the person who didn't let me in when I
was trying to turn this morning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, they should have done better.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I've got one to file under men talking about their feelings.
People love it because this week I saw an absolute scorcher.
There was this viral clip on Instagram of the actor
Bob Odenkirk.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I love him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know who he is?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
He was in Breaking Bad and the greatest TV show
of all time?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Better Call Saul.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Also like a tough guy, like a rich, cool guy,
but very cool.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, comedian, writer, actor, And he was talking about being
a dad.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Who are you jealous of anybody who's still got little
kids at home growing up? Yeah, there's no question I
knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. Yeah,
I was being a doubt. I mean that was my job,
and I didn't have to ask myself what am I
doing here? What am I doing. How can I be
a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today?
(19:16):
I didn't have to ask that question because of an
answer is pick up everything between here and.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
The door.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
And make sure they get to school and have a
laugh with them. Yeah, you know, life was I understood
my purpose.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
That's the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Oh so profound, Amelia. You and I had really different
reactions to this. We had quite a robust discussion. Tell
me what I'm not seeing?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Okay, Well, first of all, I do want to reiterate
that I love Bob Odenkirch.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean his voice. He's just got the best voice
that said.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I did not love this. It made me feel rotten.
Let me paint you a picture. Got home from a
very long day, had left my flat early in the
morning for work. I got back after having dinner with
a friend, and I watched this and I thought, oh,
I'm doing everything wrong. I didn't even see my children today,
these precious moments when they are little, and I'm not
(20:08):
spending enough time with them, and I should just be
soaking up every bath time and I should never go
out to dinner with my friends again because this time
is so precious and rare and I'm going to look
back and miss these days. And then the spiral of
guilt continued and I couldn't sleep that night. This is
a whole genre of guilt content for parents. We're constantly
being told how irreplaceable and special these days are, and
(20:29):
yet we also know, because we're living them, how hard
it is to truly be in the moment with the
children when they are pushing your buttons, when they're refusing
to get in the bath, when they're refusing to sleep.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
And this is a whole trend now though, Amelia of
parents pushing back on this because oh good.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
There is this song by Trace Adkins called You're going
to Miss this? Have you heard I'll sing a line
to you country?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Do you want me to sing?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Actually you've got skills. Can you add a little bit
of auto tune for me as well? But he basically
goes like, you're going to make us this, You're gonna
want this bag and it's all about how you are
so talented twang? Am I a country? Suff This song
is basically all about how you're gonna want those days back,
like you're going to miss this thing that you're in.
(21:16):
But now parents have taken it and are using it
and overlaying it over their children. Absolutely, So they're using
it as they're like forcing their child into their car
seat and they won't get in, or when they're like
carrying a bike over one shoulder and their child over
another shoulder back to the car. So they're kind of
saying like, that's so nice of you to say once
(21:37):
you're out of that season of your life, but when
you're in it, this is what it looks like, and
I'm not going to miss it. I'm not going to
miss this exact part.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Okay, So why did you like it? Well, it's so
interesting what you said about your reaction to it. It's
like when you go to a psychiatrist and they held
up the ink pictures and you say, I see this,
that's not at all what I saw. Yeah, I'll tell
you what I saw. I actually thought, because I do
love Bob Odenkirk as well, but I watched this and
(22:04):
I thought the bar is so low culturally for men
in the parenting space, like are we so starved of
good men and good dads that when Bob Odenkirk says
something that millions of mothers know or say every day,
that the Internet faints with sort of how profound and
beautiful it is, and nothing against Bob od Kirk, nothing
(22:27):
against great fathers. It's so important we see them. I
feel like if a mum said this firstly, it's not
going to go viral and it's just going to be
filed under like a obvious like scroll past. I just wonder.
I don't know men with feelings on the Internet. People
seem to really froth it in a way that I
think maybe we are starved of this kind of content.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
But I think we've got to check ourselves on that reaction.
Because the other night, during these precious moments with my
very young children, I completely wasted my evening by listening
to a podcast interview with US Vice President jd Vance.
Now why did I do this, I don't know. But
he was being interviewed by an interviewer who was interested
(23:06):
in how he's balancing being vice president with being the
father to three ChEls.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Someone actually asked him that that's great.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Okay, but she's a conservative podcast influencer. And I found
that my instinctive reaction was annoyance. Why because I had
to unpack it. He was talking about how he and
his wife usha Vance liked to take the kids on
his overseas trips in his capacity as vice president, and
how it's sometimes difficult when they're stepping off the presidential
(23:33):
plane to get the kids to not have a tantrum
when the world's cameras are on them and when they're
about to meet you know, Emmanuel Macron in France. I
just like saying his name, to be honest, But I
really had to figure out why I was annoyed. First
of all, I think I was annoyed because I find
jd Vance himself personally annoying.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
But then I had to stop and think, it's actually.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Kind of great that this person who I may not
agree with politically, who was on the other side of
offense politically, is trying to talk about integrating children not
just into his professional life but into public life, into
going on a state trip and saying, I'm bringing my
children along because these children shouldn't just be my partner's responsibility.
(24:14):
But I want you to explain why I was annoyed why.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It might just be that you're confusing the political with
the emotional maybe, or it.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Could be that we automatically think that men who talk
about parenting are show voting.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
If I was a PR agent, if I was managing
some celebrities, I would be saying to them, say, I'm
managing Ryan Reynolds. You know he's got a bit of ick.
There's a bit of a stink about him. I'd say, Ryan,
go on a podcast and talk about get emotional about
being a father. Show some vulnerability, because there's nothing the
internet loves more than that. Right now, there's nothing the
culture loves more than a dad talking about their feelings.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Another example is I work with a lot of men
in my day job, and whenever one of them is
like I have to go to my kids school parade,
I feel annoyed. What is going on with me? That's
great that he's taking the time. I think it's because
it just feels performative in a way.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You're feeling defensive about it.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Maybe I do feel the same though. Listening to that
clip from Bob oden Kirk as well, I was like, oh,
that's easy. You just picked up the things and drop
them off and then you left. You didn't you didn't
think about the permission sleep if you book the day
school holidays. Bob Odenkirk, did you just pick up the toys. Yeah,
I did think, Well, I would quite like to be
a dad when my kid's a little too, which is
(25:25):
very unfair because I don't know his circumstances. He's obviously
very involved.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
So I'm okay with the showboating. I think there has
to be a period where they do show boat, where
it is seen as aspirational and fantastic to do, and
that you get a lot of points from women for
doing it, Like I roll, because that's the only way
the needles right.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But we've got to give them the points. You're right.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's like when my husband makes a terrible dinner. Oh
the praise, I am doing it so full of it.
I am like, this is the best thing I've ever
eaten because guess what, I didn't have to cook it.
And then, just like a bit.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Of okay generation, the next time someone on slack, a
man on slack tells me that he can't do something
because he's going to his kid's school parade, I'm going
to give the party hat emoji and the five emotions.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Ameily, I do think you should, because I also think that.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Culturally aggressive thumbs.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Ulturally, we do need to kind of move the needle
on this stuff dads that need to start to.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Lift point taken.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
So I moved back to Australia last year after many
years overseas, and I realized a few months in that
I was committing a big parenting faux pa.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Do you want to guess what it was?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, you flirted with another dat I fashion him.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
No, just my kid was in kindergarten. So I was
getting invite to a lot of parties because in kindergarten,
I think the sort of conventional wisdom is that, if possible,
invite the whole class to the party. So there were
a lot of parties. That he was at a public school,
so it was a huge class and so you know,
every weekend, another party. And what happened was that I
(26:57):
noticed after the parties, parents were writing to the class
WhatsApp with these effusive notes of gratitude and praise for
the party. This is with everyone in there so much.
It was just so great of you to invite little
Billy to this party. I particularly liked the cakes frosting,
or I particularly liked the dejected spider Man party entertaining
(27:22):
you hired. You know, there was just it was like
these really thoughtful notes, the kind that I would normally
write to my aunt when I was ten years old
after she sent me ten dollars in the mail, but
they were writing them to the class.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
What'sapp I asked a friend. Well, actually, I complained to
a friend.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I was like, this is so annoying. After every party,
I get these notes. And she looked at me and
she said, Amelia, are you not writing a thank you
note for attending a party? And I said no, I'm not.
Why am I thanking them?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
She said, in Australia you have to write a thank
you note for attending the kids party.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And then another thing I noticed is that when I
hosted a party, I have to write a thank you
note for attending the party to the parents.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
And it's just getting out of control.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
So when I saw an article in New York magazine
called Fellow Parents, May I please text less? It really
made me feel seen.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
First of all, I.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Want to interrupt and say did you know this? Instinctively
about the parties and the thank.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
You I'm hearing you say this, and I'm like, yeah,
that's just manners, Amelia.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
See, I just was like, I don't want to impinge
on people's inboxes. I don't want to write unnecessary messages.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well, I didn't realize that this was all happening in
like a group forum, So surely there's some eagle eyed
person in there making sure that everyone actually the party.
If I had to dride up this year, party about
up funny, maybe that's why.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So. Catherine Gesu Morton, who writes a great parenting column
for New York which I highly recommend, writes about the
experience of dropping her kids off for playdates and how
it's assumed that you have to show your concern and
your diligence as a parent by checking in constantly while
the kid is on the playdate, and also the parent
during the hosting of the playdate has to be constantly
(28:58):
checking in, Oh, is it okay if I give little
Billy some biscuits? Or is it okay if he has
a fruit juice? This is constant back and forth of communication.
She says that she used to live in Mexico, which
flex I would love to live in Mexico, and when
she would drop off her kid at a playdate, she
would say to the parent, as she has been trained
to do, oh, when should I pick my kid up?
And the parent would look vaguely annoyed and say I
(29:20):
don't know, like before bedtime, go away. Essentially just leave
us alone, trust me to do this, And so from
her Mexico experience, she resolved to become more of a
minimalist text She says that in fact, every time you
text a fellow parent, you are asking them to use
their time and energy on both reading the message, thinking
about the message, and then responding to the message. And
(29:40):
she suggests that we all need to take a pact
to text less Mon's are you going to be joining
Catherine in this pledge?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I hear that. I think it's about age and stage.
So first of all, I would say, what's wrong with
a bit of over communication? I think we are saturated
with over communication from schools and childcares and all that.
So the standard has been set, like in the vacuum
that we are in, in the culture that we are in,
is all about over communicating. But I do think it
(30:08):
definitely reaps up. I also think it's about the agent stage.
So if you're a new parent, if you've joined a
new school, it's the first playdate. Then it is about
building the trust and it's code for I'm a conscientious parent.
It's like trust me, And it's this weird thing of
like the more you check in, the more sort of
conscientious and caring you become. And so texting has become
(30:30):
kind of this false way of performing virtue, I guess,
and I'm guilty of it. Like I text a lot
because i want to fast track the trust so that
I can get to the point where I'm the Mexican
parent saying just drop them and come back when you
feel like it. But I do think it's a sliding scale.
It starts with everyone very keen on the texting, and
then I'm hoping by middle school it'll just die right off.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
See, maybe I'm guilty of being one of these overtexters.
I'm not at the kindergarten school parties yet, so I
can see that that would be an absolute punished I
have to reply to all of those. But my daughter
being four now, she recently went to a gorgeous friend's
house to look after my daughter while I worked, and
she was tech me a lot. She was texting me,
(31:11):
they're having an ice cream together, they're on the swing together,
they're doing this, And I probably wouldn't have thought to
do the same for her if it was the other
way around. But when she did it, I bloody loved
it because it actually took the guilt for me out
of the fact that I wasn't there. I was like, Yep, great,
she's cool. Yep, great, she's still cool.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, it's a lot of we're all anxious, Amelia, but
we're an anxious generation. We need the constant checking.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Oh yeah, I think it's gotten out of control. Like
when my kids started school here, I had to download
four apps, four different ways of communicating with the school
and ways that they could communicate with me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
That's too many apps.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
We know too much, I think, particularly with school. I
don't really think that it's my business what my kids
are getting up to at school. I just don't think
it's my concern. I feel the opposite. I froth those
weekly updates. When my daughter went to a daycare, we
never got any, and I was just desperate for a crumber.
I was like, just send me one picture of her
doing a little finger painting and I'll be so happy
(32:11):
that she had a good day. And now at her
prep school we get like this week, we learn about this,
the letter of the week is this, and I try.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Do you have your phones on no notifications, because you
cannot deny that every time your phone pings, your QUOTASOL
levels spike and you feel a little pang of anxiety
and stress. Don't you want to minimize that? I guess so,
at least for me, it's only once a week when
that's happening. But I guess if you were getting those constantly,
that would be stressed. I just think it's about the
class WhatsApp groups mons, Have you muted your class?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
What's I am the rogue parent that does not check
the messages?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
So I, oh, you're that parent and you're the one
who comes in after like a month and it's like, sorry,
when's book week?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Completely, I'm the one that took my kid at a
school in their school uniform on casual day because I
don't check the apps. It was an easy fix and
it was a teachable moment. I think, what if you
don't text Amelia? What if you are the rogue parent?
Is that kind of code for she's careless and that's
why no one comes to play our house?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean. Catherine says that part of this pledge to
text less, what you have to be aware of is
that people will be mad at you. People will be
angry at you. There's going to be some social blowback
from texting less. That's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I tried something new the other day when I was
texting another mum where I gave options. I treated it
like I was going to text my boss. And if
you're in a workplace and you know how to manage up,
you sort of like offer a problem and then offer
the solution and then give the recommendation in the one thing.
So I said, Hi, Sally, we'd love to have Ari
over for a playdate two till four. You can a
(33:53):
kiss and drop and we'll see you in a few hours.
B get regular text updates and photos on all their activities,
or see stay and have a cup of tea and
hang out too. Now what this? And then short and
then I said, I'm the parent that always chooses a
loll but whatever you feel me comfortable with. So it
stops the back and forth. It sets the intention. It's
(34:14):
like if you choose what you want, choose your own adventure,
and then everyone's happy. And what parent, and merely what
parent is going to say, yeah, I want text updates
every hour?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Then not that?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
And you know what would have taken it to the
next level. Did you do it like a poll in
what's that button? That would have been next level?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I just went ABC because I also am aware that,
like the mental load with texting back and forth is crippling.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And so what she picked she picked A kiss and JOP. Yeah,
I love it. Who wouldn't. But do you know why
she did pick A and why I would pick A
in that circumstance when really I love getting all the updates?
Is that you set up that you're that person. That's
the genius of it that you said, I'm a mom
who does a loll like I'm chill, so I'm expecting
you to be chill and not asking. We're sort of
(35:01):
like sending some parameters breadcrumb.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
But look, she could have chosen B or C and
I would have been happy.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
With that, genuinely okay with B, which was provide constant updates.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, that's fine. If a parent wants that from me
and needs that to feel safe and build the trust
with me with her child, then that's absolutely fine. It
just puts the burden back on her.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So we published a story on the site about how
having kids is basically like ordering food at a restaurant
and it's so brilliant that I need everyone to hear it.
So the article by Francesca Hornack was titled why a
third kid is like ordering dessert, and she basically runs
through this metaphorical restaurant of childbearing. So I'll give you
some of them. So with starters, she's like, you know
(35:43):
the drill, everyone gets there, we're all really excited. You're drinking,
and everyone starts ordering the first round of entrees, which
is the first round of babies. And she's like, everyone's
really excited when they come because you're ravenous, Like you're
all so excited by this, and you secretly start comparing,
like who got the best starter. Then everyone's having a
great time.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, Like it's a vibe. The first entrees is a vibe.
You're in the restaurant, you're feeling it, like, here it comes,
we are ready.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You're really excited for you ever got the barada, because
that's obvious the superior entrey, like very exciting stuff. Mains
is your second kid. That makes sense. Following this pork chop, Yeah, yeah,
pork chop. You know, everyone's less excited in your food
because they've got their own food to worry about.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
But great, you're not so hungry anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, but you're all settled in, you know the score,
so it's a little bit easier. You're enjoying yourselves. The
best one she has is when they come around and say,
would you like the dessert menu? And I'm going to
read you what she wrote here because it's so brilliant,
she says. Nearly everyone at the table says no, thanks immediately,
without pausing or even looking at each other. But you're
a little surprised. Pudding would be delicious, and you don't
(36:48):
feel quite finished or balanced. It's all been a bit savory.
This is when you try for a third after having
two kids of the same sex. The thing is, you
aren't sure you should actually be having a hole pudding.
You're not sure you can fit a whole pudding. But
you also know deep down that you aren't ready to
leave the restaurant. This is not throwing out the newborn sleepsuits,
and you can delay going out into the cold, dark
(37:10):
night by ordering another course. It's perfect.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I loved this.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
No, it's yeah, so so many amazing analogies in there.
We'll put the whole story in the show notes for
you so you can read the others. But for me
selfishly with my situation, my favorite was when she says,
what ordering the salad to come with the mains is like,
and she said, that's like having an only child. It
might seem lighter, but the goat's cheese is very demanding,
(37:35):
so brilliant.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
The trouble with the dessert is what if you don't
get to choose it. What if it's just like it
comes out and it might be a lemon merangue pie
and then you're like, shit, no, I want this.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I'd love a lemon merangue pie ordering.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Could we also apply this metaphor to other areas of
our life, like what other items? Like if it was
a kitchen appliance. So my first born is probably my
thermomix because it's like extremely expensive. We poured everything into
it and then we just don't stop yapping about how
amazing it is, Like shut up, and then my can
(38:09):
change more like an anchor toaster, it's just like gets
the job done. What would a third child be?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I feel like a third child would be like an
air fryer that you get gifted by someone else. So
it kind of was a surprise that got thrown into
the mix and you don't quite know what to do
with it, but you can throw everything at it and
it survives like it doesn't trying to persuade everyone else
that they needed Yes, yeah, and then you're like, how
did I live my life without this?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Air?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Fright?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
All right?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
To wrap up today's show, we're going to share the
things that we're loving sick at the moment. Things we
might text to our friends or put in the mum's
group chat, just helpful, helpful stuff. I should say dad's
group chat as well. Dads probably have group chats, all.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right, I don't think, don't they've taken the pledge.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I've gone back to basics with this one. So this
is a recipe that is a lunchbox snack that's fast, cheap,
and you can keep it in the freezer in a
giant bag. For ingredients, wheatbix balls, Guys, whatever happened to
wheatbix balls. We're all about the kito and the protein
and the chea seed and the prunes. No, I'm telling
you four ingredients. You take eight wheatbicks and then crush
(39:19):
them up and chuck them in a bowl. You can
also use the Wheatbix rubble that ends up at the
bottom of the packet that no one ever uses. Throw
that into You're going to take a quarter of a
cup of cocoa and then one cup of desiccated coconut
and just a can of condensed milky.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Stir it together, roll it into balls, roll it in coconut,
store it in a bag in the freezer for wheat
bis bolts bowls.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Look, I love that we're giving depression. You're apparenting with
directs this week. So I'm going to jump in because
I've got one question. Mine is a recommendation which came
by my mother.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
My son was sick. He was over at her place.
He saw a hot water bottle and.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
His mind was blown in a way that I didn't
think could happen to him outside of watching the Minecraft movie.
Like he just had this sort of like incredibly touching
childhood wonderment at the hot water bottle. And so now
my children think I'm like some kind of literal magician
because every night I give them this weird contraption and
they take it to bed and it soothes them and
(40:25):
it calms them and it eases their growing pains, and
I need.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
To get one myself.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
They're so good.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Now you may be asking where do you get one?
That's what I asked, because I truly hadn't thought about
them in decades. It turns out they're everywhere, Okay, I
sware house, They're everywhere, and they're not expensive. And one tip,
because my son had to tell me this, now, I'm
aware that people listening will think that I'm extremely silly
for not knowing this.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
You're not meant to put boiling water in.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, they can burst, no can.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
My son told me that you just have to like
get hot water, not boiling water. But I think it's great.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Oh that's so good. I think it's the sound they make,
like the slushy sloshy is so delightful.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
I want I want one.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Do you put them in a little baggie or is
it just raw plastic rubber? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And skin probably could get one of those. You know
how church fates always have those knitted water keep.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
It raw dogging And also because the smell of the
rubber is so good too. Oh man, what have you got, Stacey?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So my reco this week does not give depression error.
So I've gone a very different direction this week. Mine
is to just grab one of your friends and go
and have a little dance around your handbag, yes, which
I had not actually done in so long but always
used to love doing.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
So.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
It's bloody cold. My legs have not seen the light
of day in months. Like if they were a Duluxe
paint swatch, it would be called like dry, flaky snowstorm
or something like that. But I cracked out a can
of fake tan, fake tanned myself, put some sparkles on.
I thought of ten different reasons I could get it's
starting to sound like a lot. I thought, you just
meant in your living room? You mean yeah. I went
(42:01):
out in the city, which for me when I'm in
the Western suburbs, it was even a long way to
get good. It was actually so good. The one I
went to was called House of Zim. But they're just
these women only dance clubs, like is disco club, baby, yeah,
disco club like Lisa and Sarah are friends of the podcast.
They have disco club like women go and have the
(42:21):
best time. And then the one I went to was
over at ten pm.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Ye shut seeing these amelia and you see them everywhere
you put sneakers on.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Oh good, yeah, you wear flat shoes. I was like,
what is the music that they play at these? Is
it like nineties hits? You calling it nineties hits means
you need to be coming with me to one of these.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
What's the nineties hit like the Spice.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Girl's Baby, right they were nineties? Yeah, I don't know
boys two men on the st but yes, it's all
of that music. Like you can belt out a Celene
banger at.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
The top bangers and you go hard. The women go
so hard. Yeah, I saw the next day.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I was a bit sore in the hips. I'm not
gonna lie my hips were sore. But it was so good.
I wore flat shoes. I was so comfy. Great time.
You know you're seeing like belt out Selene like it's
the best. I have another question.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
No men, no mess women, no men, No men are
present and people drinking. Yeah, so you don't have it's
not one of those like sober coffee dance pot.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
There were many margaritas consumed. But I think just in
a group of women, like everyone was there for the
same reason. Everyone had gotten a baby or you know,
found their way to be out. Everyone just chucked their
bags in a corner like it was great.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's so good when you're this age because you you
maximize your time. Like when you were younger and you
were going out clubbing, the night would stretch on and
on and on.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeap, who even knew what.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
You were doing next? But this we are so efficient.
The women at this age are so efficient. It's like
get in, get your dance done, go hard, go home
and get into bed by ten thirty.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, it was the best. Woke up, parented my child
like nothing of homes sold.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Okay, ah, that's all we have time for on Parenting
out Loud today. But hey, before you go, a warning.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Not to YouTube.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Or if you know this, but this show is a
time bomb, no pressure. You're listening to this now in
the Mumma mea out Loud podcast feed, which is great,
Like we love that for us. We are just like
suckling on the teeth of Big Mamma.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
But it's not gonna last.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
They're cutting us off after three weeks and if we
don't survive EMLI, you're gonna have to sell your feet
picks on only fee. So no hard feelings like that's
just in commercial reality.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
That's fine, yeah, I mean they do really well, they would.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
What size are you?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Oh, they're very, very large. Let's not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
High arch I love the high h I know too
much about it. So listen. If you quite liked this
show and you would listen again, we need to ask
for your help. We need to ask a favor. I
know it's more on the mental load. But the best
way to help us in the next three weeks while
the time ticks away is to do one thing. It's
(45:01):
to search for Parenting Out Loud in your podcast app.
Find the show. It's got a purple logo, and just
hit follow, so it's like a little plus sign in
Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen. Now, this is free,
it's free to do that. But what it means is
that when we get cut off the teat, when the
milk stops flowing out.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Of the nipple of our baby, lead weaning people having
to pure carrots ourselves.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yea, I knew it had come in hand.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
It will be okay, we won't starve. So come on
over to Parenting Out Mad. We would love to have
you there.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
And that's so important. Please do Yeah, yeah, I'll leave you.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
With that big ass thanks to our team group ep
Ruth Divine produces Leoporgus and Sashatanic and research from Tessakotovich.
Have a great week. We'll talk to you next Saturday morning.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
See then bye,
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hey, out louders, it's moms.
I have something really special dropping into your feed today.
It's called Parenting out Loud. It's everything you love about
out loud culture, explainers, trends, hot takes, sometimes cold takes,
little bit of shit talking about the biggest job in
(00:35):
the world, parenting, not being Donald Trump. FYI, you'll find
this first episode here in your out loud feed. But
here's the fine print. We cannot stay here forever. We
cannot sully this feed. So if you're into it, you
want to add it into your podcast habits. I know
it's high commitment. I promise you it'll be good. Come
(00:55):
follow us in our own podcast feed. You can do
it right now. Actually, I'll just wait. Pick up your phone.
I know you're on your phone. Your phone's in your pocket. Okay,
just get it out. Go into your podcast app search
Parenting out Loud. That's the one purple logo. Hit the
plus button. That's the follow button. That means it's going
to drop into your feed every week. Come and spend
(01:16):
some time with us, but for now, settle in and
enjoy this first taste of a brand new season of
Parenting Out Loud. Hello, we are here. You asked for
this out louders, so here we are for real life IRL,
so welcome, Welcome fan. This is Parenting out Loud. This
(01:40):
is the podcast for parents who don't always listen to
parenting podcasts. We're just doing things a little bit differently,
So we read everything in parenting culture and trends so
you don't have to. So if you're thinking about it,
we're going to talk about it. I'm Monique Bowli. You
might remember me from very early days of Muma mea
out Loud. I went and I had some kids and
now I'm back slaving it up on the podcast again.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Welcome back one, Thank you. I'm Amelia Laster.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I am a magazine editor, which is funny because a
young person recently asked me what a magazine was and
I just wept silently.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I'm Stacy Higgs. I'm their deputy editor of Mum
and Maya. I also should mention I do have a
child as well, a glorious little four year old.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So here I am on today's show.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
There is a new reason why young people are saying
no to being parents.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
And a famous man said some beautiful words about being
a dad and the internet frocked it, but not all
of us did.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Plus how often do you text other parents? From mid
play date photos to post birthday party photos? Are parents
just texting each other way too much?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And if you have a third kid, if you want
a third kid, if you look at other people with
a third kid and think, oh boy, we found the
most perfect metaphor for the third child on the internet
this week.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Once you hear it, you won't be able to unhear it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But first, people lost their minds over a very different
kind of sports highlight. It wasn't sort of a game
winning kick or like a big moment. It was a
teenage boy crying. Archie Wilson, who's nineteen, fresh out of
Melbourne and chasing his dream playing college football in Nebraska,
a long way from home, and he was talking at
a press conference and he completely broke down when he
(03:23):
started talking about missing his mum and his dad and
his two little brothers.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Yeah. I got two little brothers and a moment dad. Yeah,
that's the tough part about being here. I love them
a lot. And I missed them, but it's a I mean,
they know this is what's best for me, and it's
let's I can still talk to them plenty of the phone,
and they're coming here to see the first first few games,
so I'm looking forward to that. Thanks, Thanks guys, Minor.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Oh my god, I could not have loved this anymore.
Initial reactions, I absolutely loved it, Like this is the
gold standard. This is where you want your kids to
get to, where they're this.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Polite and courteous and kind to the journalists afterwards, It's
just gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
The emotional range Amelia, like from the softboy energy of
like missing his family and then just snapping into complete
manners mode.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It was so lovely.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
It also really made me reflect on my own experience.
I left Australia for the US when I was eighteen
to pursue my football dreams, and when I got over there,
that's true, not the college football part. I never thought
about how hard that was for my parents, and now
I look back on it and it must be like
losing a limb. So I see Archie and I see
(04:31):
the obvious bond that he has with his parents, and
I just can't help but pour one out for Archie's
parents here and thinking about the sacrifices that they've made
for him to pursue his dream.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But also in the way that they've parented him that
he feels like, okay, enough about showing his emotions like this,
because that was largely the retrick around this On the internet,
the major themes were Wow, like, his parents have done
such a good job, look at this fine young man.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, they were the real heroes, weren't they, Like they
must be so toughed. Can you imagine them sitting back
being like, yes, yes, we did. I don't know if they.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Might be sitting back going oh, like feeling guilty, tearing
at the heart strings.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Maybe I think that there's no way that you can't
watch that and know that Archie is loved and that
he loves his parents. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
The other big thing people were saying on the internet,
which was super encouraging, was we have to protect this
guy at all costs, like real men cry. This vulnerability
is strength and people responded in droves to this tender
teen moment, especially in a culture of football, and seems
very sort of marcho. It took about ten seconds for
(05:38):
this to go far or It now has around ten
million views, and there's all manner of people commenting, like
Chris Hemsworth fifty eight million followers, thank you very much.
Like even the official Bluey account hopped onto this and said,
you do he great mate?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, he's become like a national hero now, hasn't he.
Like all of the champion Aussies are shouting him out.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah. I even saw a comment from Jenna Lyons, she's
sort of the general fashion icon, real housewife of New York,
and she was in the comments loving it too.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I love Jennal lions. Looks amazing And it's interesting because
she's been sort of pushing us to think about what
it is to be a boy or a man for
some time now. Back when she was the creative director
at j Crue, when that was the fashion label that
Michelle Obama wore, it was like the hottest label in America.
There was a J Crew catalog that came out and
(06:28):
it showed Jenna painting the nails of her son, of
her young son, and there was all this predictable and
ridiculous outrage. How can she be painting her son's nails?
And her answer was just because it looks nice and
because he wants to.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, say's law there with her. I guess yeah, Like
this clip has transcended sport, fashion, kids TV.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's just it's everywhere, in case you missed it. We
all need to calm the fuck down about protein. Oh good, okay,
you have fourth permission. That's a message that was in
a great article in The Cut this week about how
the high protein craze has now taken over our toddlers. No,
the cottage cheese has come for our toplus. Now I'm
(07:09):
very happy that this message has come through. As someone
who spent one hundred and fifty dollars once on a
baby lad weaning guide, we've all done that.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Sorry, what was the format of this guide? It wasn't
even a real book. It was like a PDF form.
But I got got it and then I downloaded it.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So I did the same thing. You get tired, you
get desperate.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Sleep deprivation does crazy shitah.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And these brands come they know you're tired, Yeah, come in,
They're like, I will solve your problems. You will pay
any amount of money.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I downloaded it to my phone and then I didn't
know how to access the downloads and I never actually
used it, so this is good for me. This is
the messaging is basically just to care less. So in
the article, Rika Schwegenhausen spoke to a recipe developer and
a dietitian and they both said that when they post
recipes that are marketed as high protein, even for babies,
(08:02):
that it goes off. Everyone engages with it, everyone downloads it,
wants to cook it. When there's fiber, nothing crickets. No
one cares about fiber anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Fiber has a massive pr problem, Like how can we
help them? Are big lentil and been just sitting around
the conference table being like, guys, everyone's about protein or
protein things. They're so good. What about us? How are
we going to get our message out there?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
But here's the problem with fiber.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I was told by my GP to start putting silium
husk on my porridge in the mornings, and so I
bought the cilium husk and it comes to this big
packet and it literally says on its scromptious silium husk,
and I'm like, don't know if it's seal it. Yes,
it tastes like sawdust and it makes you pooplic I
(08:52):
feel like the universe is telling me this week to
just not worry about what I'm feeding my kids, because
I did read a quote from Jennifer Ghana this week,
and look, anyone who's negotiating co parenting with Ben Affleck
already deserves a medal in my book. And she said,
kids don't care, families don't care, No one cares.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Just make it. Just make the food.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And I want that on one of those you know,
those neon signs that in the two thousands were in
like really rich people's homes and they always like had
them in the kitchen. I need one of those neon
signs in my.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Flat that says, stop putting, just don't just make us
make it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
There's a book that multiple friends of mine have all
of a sudden been swearing by, and I'm curious whether
you've heard about it. It's called Adult Children of Emotionally
Immature Parents.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Ever heard of it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, People love this book, and it's not just anecdotal.
There was a New York Times article in December of
last year about how this book that published ten years
ago has been surging in popularity. It's sold one point
two million copies, its biggest year of sales was last year.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So something's up.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
A lot of people think that they are the adult
children of emotionally immature parents. Look, it's bio clinical psychologist.
The cover copy says it's about parents who have difficulty
regulating their ow emotions, which immediately made me feel really
worried that my children are going to read that book
when they grow up, because doesn't everyone have difficulty regulating
their emotions. But the reason it's spiked, the publisher says,
(10:21):
is TikTok. There's a whole wave of content around this
idea of family estrangement. On TikTok, call it traumatok. There
are hashtags like inner child, healing, childhood wounds, and some
signs that you've experienced childhood trauma at the hands of
your parents. According to these videos, let me run you
through them. You're a people pleaser. You jiggle your legs,
people call you an old soul. You procrastinate, you have
(10:44):
a hard time asking for help. This is the human
condition human This is and maybe having too much coffee
the leg jiggling. It is a real thing that in
the last couple of years, family estrangement has seem to
really rise in prominence and popularity.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Okay, so we're seeing more of it in social media.
Does the data back it up?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
There's a psychologist who's quoted in a New Yorker article
on this topic who puts the rate of parental estrangement
in the US at about thirty percent, and he says
that it's probably much higher than that because that's just
people who are answering a survey and being prepared to
share that information. And he says that that's much higher
than it used to be. And the question is why,
And the question is does this have anything to do
(11:23):
with our extremely low fertility rates? Let me explain. Michelle Lebowitz,
who is a New York Times writer, has a theory.
She says that millennials are not having children, and the
reason why is that they think it seems too hard.
They think that parenting is too hard. They have all
these ideas about how their own parents screwed them up,
and they don't want to make those same mistakes, so
(11:45):
they're opting out of it entirely. And I think that
has the ring of truth to it. I saw a
reddit throughout the other day that said, in a generation's time,
what are going to be the complaints about our parenting,
and some of the answers were gentle parenting that just
makes you into a parental doormat, like giving in too much,
basically being overprotective, not letting children walk home from school,
(12:07):
making them stay at home until they're old enough to
vote practically, and not being allowed to go out at night.
Or bulldoze of parents. That was another really popular answer,
bulldoze of parents who bulldoze every obstacle out of their way.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm really curious if you think.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That this idea that the over therapization that is a
word I just made up, the over therapization of our
culture is in part leading to this reluctance to have kids.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Interesting theory. It's not the only thing. I mean, there's
cost of living, there's work life balance, there's access to childcare,
there's all of these other factors, mainly crushing cost of
living and housing and job insecurity. But what an interesting
theory that takes it beyond that into actually therapy culture.
I think therapy culture has has a lot to answer for.
(12:52):
It has been great in so many ways. Opening up
discussions about mental health is always going to be a
good thing, but it's not without its downsides. And I
want to talk about I just want to put on
the table the idea about friction in relationships for a minute.
So I follow this culture than analyst, I guess, And
he was talking recently about how life is very frictionless
(13:14):
for us now that tech companies have made all these
apps so that we don't have to experience much discomfort anymore,
so that when we do experience it, it feels very jarring
to us, and we're not resilient enough to handle it.
So there is this stress response I guess, where people
will just flee in an uncomfortable situation. Now, that is to say,
(13:36):
estrangement is obviously important for so many, like there would
be abuse and toxic relationships, and that's fine, But what
you're talking about now merely is like this middle ground
where people just feel uncomfortable about a relationship and so
we'll estrange themselves from their parents. And I think we're
very quick to remove friction now from our lives or
(13:57):
not be able to sit with it. So is therapy
culture making all of our relationships feel impossible to maintain
because I think also when you.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Because it's holding us to impossible standards.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Completely and it's leading into friendships. So once upon a time,
you might have had a friend that was a bit
flaky and you'd roll your eyes and you'd be like, oh,
come on, get it together. But now you say, no,
these are my boundaries and you're toxic and I'm cutting
you out of my life. And like in work culture too,
I was a manager before I sat behind this microphone,
and there's certainly as a manager now you have to
(14:28):
have such a responsibility to be emotionally literate. Like there's
lots of healing and affirming and trauma proofing that you
have to do in the workplace. So is therapy culture.
As you said, Amelia, I'm making our relationships hard to maintain.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
And also just making it feel like parenting is an
impossible task, like making people feel like, well, I could
never have children because I can never be the perfect
parent that i'd want to be.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
But I think that's just the volume of information there
is now. Like I know, when I had my daughter
and was struggling in the newborn days, I had this
conversation with my mum where she was like, well, it's
just that you've got too many answers. Now, you've got
too many options. She was like, when I did it.
I just had to figure it out. And that was
kind of just her kind way of being like, can
you stop reading about wake windows and just put your
baby to sleep when they seem tired? Like you are
(15:17):
making this so hard for yourself. And I think I
had never even really thought about how I was parented
until I became a parent and started getting all these
TikTok videos that you speak of, Like I get them
come up in my algorithm all the time, saying are
you a chronic people pleaser who can sense the you know,
the atmosphere change when people's moods change in the room.
And I was like, yeah, I can, But I don't
(15:38):
think that's my parent's fault. I think that's just my
personality type. Like I think I'm just conscious of wanting
everyone to be having a nice time. That's not something
that they necessarily did wrong.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Stacy, have you had therapy before?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I only did after having my daughter, so very short
amount of sessions after having.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Do you remember like what one of the first questions
I asked you was.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
It was about my parents. It was all about the
dynamic of my parents and almost withholding from me, Ah,
I've sussed this and we're going to get to why
you're struggling with this now.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, I hear that. Like one of the first questions
you'll get asked in therapy if you can afford it
to go and have it, is tell me about your childhood,
tell me about how you were parented. And so I
don't think this is new. We are not the first
generation to agonize about having kids or to blame parents
for any psychological wobble like I think our parents were. Also,
(16:30):
they probably didn't have the language of the words around it,
but parents have them too.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
So fertility rates are at an all time low. So
millennials are on track to be the generation with the
least children in recorded history. And one point that's made
in this article is that when you have children, you
suddenly forgive your parents for all their perceived shortcomings. So
you're like, oh, this is really hard. Yeah, that's true,
and I'm just struggling to do. I find myself saying
(16:56):
to my children a line that I heard to write
my childhood, which is I'm doing the very best I can,
and why don't you appreciate the work I'm doing for you?
And all of these lines are coming out of me
because now I see that they're in fact true. Yeah,
I'm doing the best I can. Why can't you appreciate
all the work I'm doing for you? When you have children,
you realize that that's true. But if you don't have children,
(17:17):
you don't realize that's true. And I wonder if there's
a chicken and egg element here, is that what's contributing
to these really high rates of family estrangement too, because
people are not having that experience of, oh wait, my
parents are just human, just like everyone else. Another reason
I think that therapy could be contributing to more people
choosing to be child free is that there is so
much more language now around our partners and the bad
(17:40):
behaviors they might have. So you might be able to
now recognize when someone is a narcissist, or when someone
is gaslighting you, or when someone's just a bit of
a douche, and you might choose not to procreate with
them for that reason.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I don't think you necessarily need to have had a child, though,
to come to that understanding. So I've had seven years
of therapy. I've spent fortune on it, or save you
the time and the money, and part therapy one of
the best things that my therapist ever said to me
was what if they were just doing the best they
could with the tools they had, And maybe that's the
(18:12):
antidote to this therapy culture perfectionism. What if everyone is
just doing the best they can.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Pretty much everyone is doing the best they can. Apart
from the person who didn't let me in when I
was trying to turn this morning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, they should have done better.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I've got one to file under men talking about their feelings.
People love it because this week I saw an absolute scorcher.
There was this viral clip on Instagram of the actor
Bob Odenkirk.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I love him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know who he is?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
He was in Breaking Bad and the greatest TV show
of all time?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Better Call Saul.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Also like a tough guy, like a rich, cool guy,
but very cool.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, comedian, writer, actor, And he was talking about being
a dad.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Who are you jealous of anybody who's still got little
kids at home growing up? Yeah, there's no question I
knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. Yeah,
I was being a doubt. I mean that was my job,
and I didn't have to ask myself what am I
doing here? What am I doing. How can I be
a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today?
(19:16):
I didn't have to ask that question because of an
answer is pick up everything between here and.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
The door.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
And make sure they get to school and have a
laugh with them. Yeah, you know, life was I understood
my purpose.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
That's the answer.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Oh so profound, Amelia. You and I had really different
reactions to this. We had quite a robust discussion. Tell
me what I'm not seeing?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Okay, Well, first of all, I do want to reiterate
that I love Bob Odenkirch.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean his voice. He's just got the best voice
that said.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I did not love this. It made me feel rotten.
Let me paint you a picture. Got home from a
very long day, had left my flat early in the
morning for work. I got back after having dinner with
a friend, and I watched this and I thought, oh,
I'm doing everything wrong. I didn't even see my children today,
these precious moments when they are little, and I'm not
(20:08):
spending enough time with them, and I should just be
soaking up every bath time and I should never go
out to dinner with my friends again because this time
is so precious and rare and I'm going to look
back and miss these days. And then the spiral of
guilt continued and I couldn't sleep that night. This is
a whole genre of guilt content for parents. We're constantly
being told how irreplaceable and special these days are, and
(20:29):
yet we also know, because we're living them, how hard
it is to truly be in the moment with the
children when they are pushing your buttons, when they're refusing
to get in the bath, when they're refusing to sleep.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
And this is a whole trend now though, Amelia of
parents pushing back on this because oh good.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
There is this song by Trace Adkins called You're going
to Miss this? Have you heard I'll sing a line
to you country?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Do you want me to sing?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Actually you've got skills. Can you add a little bit
of auto tune for me as well? But he basically
goes like, you're going to make us this, You're gonna
want this bag and it's all about how you are
so talented twang? Am I a country? Suff This song
is basically all about how you're gonna want those days back,
like you're going to miss this thing that you're in.
(21:16):
But now parents have taken it and are using it
and overlaying it over their children. Absolutely, So they're using
it as they're like forcing their child into their car
seat and they won't get in, or when they're like
carrying a bike over one shoulder and their child over
another shoulder back to the car. So they're kind of
saying like, that's so nice of you to say once
(21:37):
you're out of that season of your life, but when
you're in it, this is what it looks like, and
I'm not going to miss it. I'm not going to
miss this exact part.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Okay, So why did you like it? Well, it's so
interesting what you said about your reaction to it. It's
like when you go to a psychiatrist and they held
up the ink pictures and you say, I see this,
that's not at all what I saw. Yeah, I'll tell
you what I saw. I actually thought, because I do
love Bob Odenkirk as well, but I watched this and
(22:04):
I thought the bar is so low culturally for men
in the parenting space, like are we so starved of
good men and good dads that when Bob Odenkirk says
something that millions of mothers know or say every day,
that the Internet faints with sort of how profound and
beautiful it is, and nothing against Bob od Kirk, nothing
(22:27):
against great fathers. It's so important we see them. I
feel like if a mum said this firstly, it's not
going to go viral and it's just going to be
filed under like a obvious like scroll past. I just wonder.
I don't know men with feelings on the Internet. People
seem to really froth it in a way that I
think maybe we are starved of this kind of content.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
But I think we've got to check ourselves on that reaction.
Because the other night, during these precious moments with my
very young children, I completely wasted my evening by listening
to a podcast interview with US Vice President jd Vance.
Now why did I do this, I don't know. But
he was being interviewed by an interviewer who was interested
(23:06):
in how he's balancing being vice president with being the
father to three ChEls.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Someone actually asked him that that's great.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Okay, but she's a conservative podcast influencer. And I found
that my instinctive reaction was annoyance. Why because I had
to unpack it. He was talking about how he and
his wife usha Vance liked to take the kids on
his overseas trips in his capacity as vice president, and
how it's sometimes difficult when they're stepping off the presidential
(23:33):
plane to get the kids to not have a tantrum
when the world's cameras are on them and when they're
about to meet you know, Emmanuel Macron in France. I
just like saying his name, to be honest, But I
really had to figure out why I was annoyed. First
of all, I think I was annoyed because I find
jd Vance himself personally annoying.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
But then I had to stop and think, it's actually.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Kind of great that this person who I may not
agree with politically, who was on the other side of
offense politically, is trying to talk about integrating children not
just into his professional life but into public life, into
going on a state trip and saying, I'm bringing my
children along because these children shouldn't just be my partner's responsibility.
(24:14):
But I want you to explain why I was annoyed why.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It might just be that you're confusing the political with
the emotional maybe, or it.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Could be that we automatically think that men who talk
about parenting are show voting.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
If I was a PR agent, if I was managing
some celebrities, I would be saying to them, say, I'm
managing Ryan Reynolds. You know he's got a bit of ick.
There's a bit of a stink about him. I'd say, Ryan,
go on a podcast and talk about get emotional about
being a father. Show some vulnerability, because there's nothing the
internet loves more than that. Right now, there's nothing the
culture loves more than a dad talking about their feelings.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Another example is I work with a lot of men
in my day job, and whenever one of them is
like I have to go to my kids school parade,
I feel annoyed. What is going on with me? That's
great that he's taking the time. I think it's because
it just feels performative in a way.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You're feeling defensive about it.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Maybe I do feel the same though. Listening to that
clip from Bob oden Kirk as well, I was like, oh,
that's easy. You just picked up the things and drop
them off and then you left. You didn't you didn't
think about the permission sleep if you book the day
school holidays. Bob Odenkirk, did you just pick up the toys. Yeah,
I did think, Well, I would quite like to be
a dad when my kid's a little too, which is
(25:25):
very unfair because I don't know his circumstances. He's obviously
very involved.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
So I'm okay with the showboating. I think there has
to be a period where they do show boat, where
it is seen as aspirational and fantastic to do, and
that you get a lot of points from women for
doing it, Like I roll, because that's the only way
the needles right.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But we've got to give them the points. You're right.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's like when my husband makes a terrible dinner. Oh
the praise, I am doing it so full of it.
I am like, this is the best thing I've ever
eaten because guess what, I didn't have to cook it.
And then, just like a bit.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Of okay generation, the next time someone on slack, a
man on slack tells me that he can't do something
because he's going to his kid's school parade, I'm going
to give the party hat emoji and the five emotions.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Ameily, I do think you should, because I also think that.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Culturally aggressive thumbs.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Ulturally, we do need to kind of move the needle
on this stuff dads that need to start to.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Lift point taken.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
So I moved back to Australia last year after many
years overseas, and I realized a few months in that
I was committing a big parenting faux pa.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Do you want to guess what it was?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, you flirted with another dat I fashion him.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
No, just my kid was in kindergarten. So I was
getting invite to a lot of parties because in kindergarten,
I think the sort of conventional wisdom is that, if possible,
invite the whole class to the party. So there were
a lot of parties. That he was at a public school,
so it was a huge class and so you know,
every weekend, another party. And what happened was that I
(26:57):
noticed after the parties, parents were writing to the class
WhatsApp with these effusive notes of gratitude and praise for
the party. This is with everyone in there so much.
It was just so great of you to invite little
Billy to this party. I particularly liked the cakes frosting,
or I particularly liked the dejected spider Man party entertaining
(27:22):
you hired. You know, there was just it was like
these really thoughtful notes, the kind that I would normally
write to my aunt when I was ten years old
after she sent me ten dollars in the mail, but
they were writing them to the class.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
What'sapp I asked a friend. Well, actually, I complained to
a friend.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I was like, this is so annoying. After every party,
I get these notes. And she looked at me and
she said, Amelia, are you not writing a thank you
note for attending a party? And I said no, I'm not.
Why am I thanking them?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
She said, in Australia you have to write a thank
you note for attending the kids party.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And then another thing I noticed is that when I
hosted a party, I have to write a thank you
note for attending the party to the parents.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
And it's just getting out of control.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
So when I saw an article in New York magazine
called Fellow Parents, May I please text less? It really
made me feel seen.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
First of all, I.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Want to interrupt and say did you know this? Instinctively
about the parties and the thank.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
You I'm hearing you say this, and I'm like, yeah,
that's just manners, Amelia.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
See, I just was like, I don't want to impinge
on people's inboxes. I don't want to write unnecessary messages.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Well, I didn't realize that this was all happening in
like a group forum, So surely there's some eagle eyed
person in there making sure that everyone actually the party.
If I had to dride up this year, party about
up funny, maybe that's why.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So. Catherine Gesu Morton, who writes a great parenting column
for New York which I highly recommend, writes about the
experience of dropping her kids off for playdates and how
it's assumed that you have to show your concern and
your diligence as a parent by checking in constantly while
the kid is on the playdate, and also the parent
during the hosting of the playdate has to be constantly
(28:58):
checking in, Oh, is it okay if I give little
Billy some biscuits? Or is it okay if he has
a fruit juice? This is constant back and forth of communication.
She says that she used to live in Mexico, which
flex I would love to live in Mexico, and when
she would drop off her kid at a playdate, she
would say to the parent, as she has been trained
to do, oh, when should I pick my kid up?
And the parent would look vaguely annoyed and say I
(29:20):
don't know, like before bedtime, go away. Essentially just leave
us alone, trust me to do this, And so from
her Mexico experience, she resolved to become more of a
minimalist text She says that in fact, every time you
text a fellow parent, you are asking them to use
their time and energy on both reading the message, thinking
about the message, and then responding to the message. And
(29:40):
she suggests that we all need to take a pact
to text less Mon's are you going to be joining
Catherine in this pledge?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I hear that. I think it's about age and stage.
So first of all, I would say, what's wrong with
a bit of over communication? I think we are saturated
with over communication from schools and childcares and all that.
So the standard has been set, like in the vacuum
that we are in, in the culture that we are in,
is all about over communicating. But I do think it
(30:08):
definitely reaps up. I also think it's about the agent stage.
So if you're a new parent, if you've joined a
new school, it's the first playdate. Then it is about
building the trust and it's code for I'm a conscientious parent.
It's like trust me, And it's this weird thing of
like the more you check in, the more sort of
conscientious and caring you become. And so texting has become
(30:30):
kind of this false way of performing virtue, I guess,
and I'm guilty of it. Like I text a lot
because i want to fast track the trust so that
I can get to the point where I'm the Mexican
parent saying just drop them and come back when you
feel like it. But I do think it's a sliding scale.
It starts with everyone very keen on the texting, and
then I'm hoping by middle school it'll just die right off.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
See, maybe I'm guilty of being one of these overtexters.
I'm not at the kindergarten school parties yet, so I
can see that that would be an absolute punished I
have to reply to all of those. But my daughter
being four now, she recently went to a gorgeous friend's
house to look after my daughter while I worked, and
she was tech me a lot. She was texting me,
(31:11):
they're having an ice cream together, they're on the swing together,
they're doing this, And I probably wouldn't have thought to
do the same for her if it was the other
way around. But when she did it, I bloody loved
it because it actually took the guilt for me out
of the fact that I wasn't there. I was like, Yep, great,
she's cool. Yep, great, she's still cool.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, it's a lot of we're all anxious, Amelia, but
we're an anxious generation. We need the constant checking.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Oh yeah, I think it's gotten out of control. Like
when my kids started school here, I had to download
four apps, four different ways of communicating with the school
and ways that they could communicate with me.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
That's too many apps.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
We know too much, I think, particularly with school. I
don't really think that it's my business what my kids
are getting up to at school. I just don't think
it's my concern. I feel the opposite. I froth those
weekly updates. When my daughter went to a daycare, we
never got any, and I was just desperate for a crumber.
I was like, just send me one picture of her
doing a little finger painting and I'll be so happy
(32:11):
that she had a good day. And now at her
prep school we get like this week, we learn about this,
the letter of the week is this, and I try.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Do you have your phones on no notifications, because you
cannot deny that every time your phone pings, your QUOTASOL
levels spike and you feel a little pang of anxiety
and stress. Don't you want to minimize that? I guess so,
at least for me, it's only once a week when
that's happening. But I guess if you were getting those constantly,
that would be stressed. I just think it's about the
class WhatsApp groups mons, Have you muted your class?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
What's I am the rogue parent that does not check
the messages?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
So I, oh, you're that parent and you're the one
who comes in after like a month and it's like, sorry,
when's book week?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Completely, I'm the one that took my kid at a
school in their school uniform on casual day because I
don't check the apps. It was an easy fix and
it was a teachable moment. I think, what if you
don't text Amelia? What if you are the rogue parent?
Is that kind of code for she's careless and that's
why no one comes to play our house?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I mean. Catherine says that part of this pledge to
text less, what you have to be aware of is
that people will be mad at you. People will be
angry at you. There's going to be some social blowback
from texting less. That's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I tried something new the other day when I was
texting another mum where I gave options. I treated it
like I was going to text my boss. And if
you're in a workplace and you know how to manage up,
you sort of like offer a problem and then offer
the solution and then give the recommendation in the one thing.
So I said, Hi, Sally, we'd love to have Ari
over for a playdate two till four. You can a
(33:53):
kiss and drop and we'll see you in a few hours.
B get regular text updates and photos on all their activities,
or see stay and have a cup of tea and
hang out too. Now what this? And then short and
then I said, I'm the parent that always chooses a
loll but whatever you feel me comfortable with. So it
stops the back and forth. It sets the intention. It's
(34:14):
like if you choose what you want, choose your own adventure,
and then everyone's happy. And what parent, and merely what
parent is going to say, yeah, I want text updates
every hour?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Then not that?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
And you know what would have taken it to the
next level. Did you do it like a poll in
what's that button? That would have been next level?
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I just went ABC because I also am aware that,
like the mental load with texting back and forth is crippling.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And so what she picked she picked A kiss and JOP. Yeah,
I love it. Who wouldn't. But do you know why
she did pick A and why I would pick A
in that circumstance when really I love getting all the updates?
Is that you set up that you're that person. That's
the genius of it that you said, I'm a mom
who does a loll like I'm chill, so I'm expecting
you to be chill and not asking. We're sort of
(35:01):
like sending some parameters breadcrumb.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
But look, she could have chosen B or C and
I would have been happy.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
With that, genuinely okay with B, which was provide constant updates.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, that's fine. If a parent wants that from me
and needs that to feel safe and build the trust
with me with her child, then that's absolutely fine. It
just puts the burden back on her.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So we published a story on the site about how
having kids is basically like ordering food at a restaurant
and it's so brilliant that I need everyone to hear it.
So the article by Francesca Hornack was titled why a
third kid is like ordering dessert, and she basically runs
through this metaphorical restaurant of childbearing. So I'll give you
some of them. So with starters, she's like, you know
(35:43):
the drill, everyone gets there, we're all really excited. You're drinking,
and everyone starts ordering the first round of entrees, which
is the first round of babies. And she's like, everyone's
really excited when they come because you're ravenous, Like you're
all so excited by this, and you secretly start comparing,
like who got the best starter. Then everyone's having a
great time.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, Like it's a vibe. The first entrees is a vibe.
You're in the restaurant, you're feeling it, like, here it comes,
we are ready.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You're really excited for you ever got the barada, because
that's obvious the superior entrey, like very exciting stuff. Mains
is your second kid. That makes sense. Following this pork chop, Yeah, yeah,
pork chop. You know, everyone's less excited in your food
because they've got their own food to worry about.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
But great, you're not so hungry anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, but you're all settled in, you know the score,
so it's a little bit easier. You're enjoying yourselves. The
best one she has is when they come around and say,
would you like the dessert menu? And I'm going to
read you what she wrote here because it's so brilliant,
she says. Nearly everyone at the table says no, thanks immediately,
without pausing or even looking at each other. But you're
a little surprised. Pudding would be delicious, and you don't
(36:48):
feel quite finished or balanced. It's all been a bit savory.
This is when you try for a third after having
two kids of the same sex. The thing is, you
aren't sure you should actually be having a hole pudding.
You're not sure you can fit a whole pudding. But
you also know deep down that you aren't ready to
leave the restaurant. This is not throwing out the newborn sleepsuits,
and you can delay going out into the cold, dark
(37:10):
night by ordering another course. It's perfect.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
I loved this.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
No, it's yeah, so so many amazing analogies in there.
We'll put the whole story in the show notes for
you so you can read the others. But for me
selfishly with my situation, my favorite was when she says,
what ordering the salad to come with the mains is like,
and she said, that's like having an only child. It
might seem lighter, but the goat's cheese is very demanding,
(37:35):
so brilliant.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
The trouble with the dessert is what if you don't
get to choose it. What if it's just like it
comes out and it might be a lemon merangue pie
and then you're like, shit, no, I want this.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
I'd love a lemon merangue pie ordering.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Could we also apply this metaphor to other areas of
our life, like what other items? Like if it was
a kitchen appliance. So my first born is probably my
thermomix because it's like extremely expensive. We poured everything into
it and then we just don't stop yapping about how
amazing it is, Like shut up, and then my can
(38:09):
change more like an anchor toaster, it's just like gets
the job done. What would a third child be?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I feel like a third child would be like an
air fryer that you get gifted by someone else. So
it kind of was a surprise that got thrown into
the mix and you don't quite know what to do
with it, but you can throw everything at it and
it survives like it doesn't trying to persuade everyone else
that they needed Yes, yeah, and then you're like, how
did I live my life without this?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Air?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Fright?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
All right?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
To wrap up today's show, we're going to share the
things that we're loving sick at the moment. Things we
might text to our friends or put in the mum's
group chat, just helpful, helpful stuff. I should say dad's
group chat as well. Dads probably have group chats, all.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right, I don't think, don't they've taken the pledge.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I've gone back to basics with this one. So this
is a recipe that is a lunchbox snack that's fast, cheap,
and you can keep it in the freezer in a
giant bag. For ingredients, wheatbix balls, Guys, whatever happened to
wheatbix balls. We're all about the kito and the protein
and the chea seed and the prunes. No, I'm telling
you four ingredients. You take eight wheatbicks and then crush
(39:19):
them up and chuck them in a bowl. You can
also use the Wheatbix rubble that ends up at the
bottom of the packet that no one ever uses. Throw
that into You're going to take a quarter of a
cup of cocoa and then one cup of desiccated coconut
and just a can of condensed milky.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Stir it together, roll it into balls, roll it in coconut,
store it in a bag in the freezer for wheat
bis bolts bowls.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Look, I love that we're giving depression. You're apparenting with
directs this week. So I'm going to jump in because
I've got one question. Mine is a recommendation which came
by my mother.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
My son was sick. He was over at her place.
He saw a hot water bottle and.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
His mind was blown in a way that I didn't
think could happen to him outside of watching the Minecraft movie.
Like he just had this sort of like incredibly touching
childhood wonderment at the hot water bottle. And so now
my children think I'm like some kind of literal magician
because every night I give them this weird contraption and
they take it to bed and it soothes them and
(40:25):
it calms them and it eases their growing pains, and
I need.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
To get one myself.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
They're so good.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Now you may be asking where do you get one?
That's what I asked, because I truly hadn't thought about
them in decades. It turns out they're everywhere, Okay, I
sware house, They're everywhere, and they're not expensive. And one tip,
because my son had to tell me this, now, I'm
aware that people listening will think that I'm extremely silly
for not knowing this.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
You're not meant to put boiling water in.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
No, they can burst, no can.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
My son told me that you just have to like
get hot water, not boiling water. But I think it's great.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Oh that's so good. I think it's the sound they make,
like the slushy sloshy is so delightful.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
I want I want one.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Do you put them in a little baggie or is
it just raw plastic rubber? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And skin probably could get one of those. You know
how church fates always have those knitted water keep.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
It raw dogging And also because the smell of the
rubber is so good too. Oh man, what have you got, Stacey?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So my reco this week does not give depression error.
So I've gone a very different direction this week. Mine
is to just grab one of your friends and go
and have a little dance around your handbag, yes, which
I had not actually done in so long but always
used to love doing.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
So.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
It's bloody cold. My legs have not seen the light
of day in months. Like if they were a Duluxe
paint swatch, it would be called like dry, flaky snowstorm
or something like that. But I cracked out a can
of fake tan, fake tanned myself, put some sparkles on.
I thought of ten different reasons I could get it's
starting to sound like a lot. I thought, you just
meant in your living room? You mean yeah. I went
(42:01):
out in the city, which for me when I'm in
the Western suburbs, it was even a long way to
get good. It was actually so good. The one I
went to was called House of Zim. But they're just
these women only dance clubs, like is disco club, baby, yeah,
disco club like Lisa and Sarah are friends of the podcast.
They have disco club like women go and have the
(42:21):
best time. And then the one I went to was
over at ten pm.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Ye shut seeing these amelia and you see them everywhere
you put sneakers on.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Oh good, yeah, you wear flat shoes. I was like,
what is the music that they play at these? Is
it like nineties hits? You calling it nineties hits means
you need to be coming with me to one of these.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
What's the nineties hit like the Spice.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Girl's Baby, right they were nineties? Yeah, I don't know
boys two men on the st but yes, it's all
of that music. Like you can belt out a Celene
banger at.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
The top bangers and you go hard. The women go
so hard. Yeah, I saw the next day.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I was a bit sore in the hips. I'm not
gonna lie my hips were sore. But it was so good.
I wore flat shoes. I was so comfy. Great time.
You know you're seeing like belt out Selene like it's
the best. I have another question.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
No men, no mess women, no men, No men are
present and people drinking. Yeah, so you don't have it's
not one of those like sober coffee dance pot.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
There were many margaritas consumed. But I think just in
a group of women, like everyone was there for the
same reason. Everyone had gotten a baby or you know,
found their way to be out. Everyone just chucked their
bags in a corner like it was great.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's so good when you're this age because you you
maximize your time. Like when you were younger and you
were going out clubbing, the night would stretch on and
on and on.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeap, who even knew what.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
You were doing next? But this we are so efficient.
The women at this age are so efficient. It's like
get in, get your dance done, go hard, go home
and get into bed by ten thirty.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah, it was the best. Woke up, parented my child
like nothing of homes sold.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Okay, ah, that's all we have time for on Parenting
out Loud today. But hey, before you go, a warning.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Not to YouTube.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Or if you know this, but this show is a
time bomb, no pressure. You're listening to this now in
the Mumma mea out Loud podcast feed, which is great,
Like we love that for us. We are just like
suckling on the teeth of Big Mamma.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
But it's not gonna last.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
They're cutting us off after three weeks and if we
don't survive EMLI, you're gonna have to sell your feet
picks on only fee. So no hard feelings like that's
just in commercial reality.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
That's fine, yeah, I mean they do really well, they would.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
What size are you?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Oh, they're very, very large. Let's not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
High arch I love the high h I know too
much about it. So listen. If you quite liked this
show and you would listen again, we need to ask
for your help. We need to ask a favor. I
know it's more on the mental load. But the best
way to help us in the next three weeks while
the time ticks away is to do one thing. It's
(45:01):
to search for Parenting Out Loud in your podcast app.
Find the show. It's got a purple logo, and just
hit follow, so it's like a little plus sign in
Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen. Now, this is free,
it's free to do that. But what it means is
that when we get cut off the teat, when the
milk stops flowing out.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Of the nipple of our baby, lead weaning people having
to pure carrots ourselves.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yea, I knew it had come in hand.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
It will be okay, we won't starve. So come on
over to Parenting Out Mad. We would love to have
you there.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
And that's so important. Please do Yeah, yeah, I'll leave you.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
With that big ass thanks to our team group ep
Ruth Divine produces Leoporgus and Sashatanic and research from Tessakotovich.
Have a great week. We'll talk to you next Saturday morning.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
See then bye,
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Footballâs funniest family duo â Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs â team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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