March 19, 2025 • 48 mins
On Out Loud today, we examine the gift that's just dropped in the form of an illuminating new profile on Holly's 'close personal friend' Gwyneth Paltrow. We unpack what Gwynnie reveals about being a female mogul/movie star/sex symbol/cultural icon in 2025.
Also, the new Snow White remake with everything – a half a billion dollar budget, feuding co-stars, a hot mess of a press tour – and a casting backlash which feels eerily similar to last year's The Little Mermaid.
Plus, the teeth we can't stop talking about: How The White Lotus actress Aimee Lou Wood has chosen to set herself apart by rejecting the face of the celebrity masses. Teeth are having a moment and we're here for it.
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What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: The Response To Hugh Van Cuylenburg's Open Letter
- Listen: Mel Robbins Knows Exactly What's Wrong with You
- Listen: The White Lotus — 5 Theories & A Dong Watch
- Listen: The New Things People Are Saying During Sex
- Listen: The Royals' Group Chat & Mia's BTS Secrets From Award Season
- Listen: The (No Spoiler) Severance Conversation We’ve Been Waiting To Have
- Listen: A Meghan Pivot No One Expected & The Ugly SNARF Phone Trap
- Listen to No Filter: Anthony Albanese, Prime Minister: The Interview
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
A Gwyneth Paltrow profile cover story in fact, dropped in
Vanity Fair today, and there are so many morsels.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's like hilarious how she is the most rarefied and
the most basic at the same time.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And she's also following in the footsteps she says of
a camera dias.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Except you're just basic.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But I haven't got SHITLINGKF, Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia.
Out loud, what women actually talking about On Wednesday, the
nineteenth of March. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm me.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
A Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And on the show today, it must be my birthday
because a big new profile of Gwyneth Paltrow has dropped,
and it tells us a lot about what it takes
to be a female mogul, movie star, sex symbol, cultural icon.
In twe twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You've manifested something in that story, which is.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
The content gods have delivered to us today.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
And all of that is very instructive for the rest
of us mere mortals. So we're going to unpack that. Also,
the new Snow White remake has everything half billion dollar budget,
troll in, flaming casting decisions, apparently feuding co stars, a
hot mess of a press tour except for an audience
and teeth. How the White lotuses Amy lou wood is
(01:37):
upending the rules about a Hollywood actress's face and mouth
is meant to look like. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
In case you missed it, NASA SpaceX astronauts Butch Wilmore
and Sunny Williams have finally returned from the International Space
Station after getting stuck.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I've been thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I've been watching this story very closely because I needed
them home and they've come home. So the pair was
scheduled to have a week long mission, but technical issues
you don't want their men's face, and delays with their
ride home. That's the Boeing star Liner capsule meant they
spent two hundred and eighty six days up there or
nine months.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Can you imagine you're going away for a week.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah. And also like delays, it's like what was there
like a space shuttle strike?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
So there were issues with the something about helium. I
imagine here's how I imagined it.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Details.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
The spaceship came had big holes in it, That's how
I imagine it. And they went, couldn't get on, and
that felt like not a good idea.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
We've seen Apolo thirteenth. They explained it to a kid,
something broke on your daddy's ship.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
That's happened something and they didn't get on it. Good move, okay,
other than probably not packing enough underwear. There's been a
lot of talk about some issues that Wilmore and Williams
have encountered. So in November of last year, images of Williams,
in particular, she's the fifty nine year old female astronaut.
You might have seen photos of her. They prompted widespread
(02:57):
concern because she had lost a significant amount of weight,
and the effects of space travel are known to be
harsher on women. They lose muscle at a faster rate.
So after two hundred and eighty six days in space,
I'm going to tell you what happen as to the
human body, how they came back right, So, significant bone
density loss, no matter how many weight, how much cottage,
(03:17):
you know, she had to eat at least double the
calories that like I don't know how you would get
in as much food.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And then two hours of it and it's not yummy food.
It's not yemmy freeze dried space food.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, yeah, horrible.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
How do you even do exercise in space if there's
no grad.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's like an exercise bike and you get on that
for literally two hours and waited.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You'd be fine.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Temporary height increase by at least a few centimeters taller
because the discs like because they don't have the gravitational push. Yeah,
fluid shifts towards the head, meaning that you become really congested,
so you can have a running nose, headache, lots of issues.
And that also skin though probably yes, except for the
gaunt because of all the weight we've lost and you
(04:01):
come back with vision is skin.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Car space, he'd probably run out, he'd run out of
like she wouldn't need tempons, especially if you thought you
were going for a week.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Remember there was a woman who was going to space
and they gave them one hundred tampons for a week
long mission. I'm pretty sure she didn't even have a period.
But what it exemplified was how science astronauts in space
do not understand women and their periods. Loss of taste
and smell, which is apparently a good thing because that
capsule is not smelling good by the end, Increased cancer risk,
increased likelihood of kidney stones due to dehydration. You come
(04:36):
back very dizzy and fatigue.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Sounds great sign me that here's.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
A good thing. You come back all your skin baby
soft because nothing's rubbed against it, so you know, even
your feet like shoes, and you like. You come back
like a new.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, skinny, sick with brit Or bones.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
And apparently a lot of the astronauts never get used
to sleeping in space, so this can be the hardest thing,
is a sleep deprivation. Nine months without a good night sleep.
I've read somewhere that they sleep like bats upside down.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Shut up the blood rushing to the head. That would
make that worse. I don't understand space. Not all of
this information has clearly been lost on me, But.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So not go then. They a quite Paltrow profile cover
story in fact dropped in Vanity Fair today, and there
are so many morsels. She hasn't done a big interview
like this for quite a long time, and there's many
many parts to this interview. She spoke about Goop, being
the CEO of Goop group's been around for I think
(05:39):
about ten or fifteen years. She's still the CEO. She
spoke about her divorce from Chris Martin and how they
are this big, blended family along with her new husband
Brad Felchuck, his ex wife, various children, girlfriend's partners. It
was recorded just after the big wildfires in La so
(06:01):
to set the scene, she had to flee her Hollywood home,
which she has since sold, which was undamaging the fires
in the end, but she had to go to her
Montecito home, which you may remember is where Megan Markle
and Oprah live. So that's I think an hour or
so out of the heart of Hollywood. And while the
interviewer was there, the removalists were bringing some of the
(06:24):
furniture from her Hollywood home to the Monticito home, things
like her pilates reformer. What were some of the other things.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
The cases of wine, her cases.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Of wine, and she was what was she doing? She
was talking to.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
The speaking to the crew in perfect Spanish. It said,
the details in this are so good. The crew unloads
at least one Pilartes reformer. Someone asks Paltrow's head of
security where she wants the wine. Paltrow speaks to staff
as influence Spanish, and then she nuzzles foul Chuck, who's
appeared by the side door in a shawl collared sweater
and shealing clogs. Gwyneth is also wearing shealing clogs.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Everyone's wearing shaling sheepskin, and so it would be like
kind of like you know, those birkenstocks.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And clogs, but with sheepskin, it's like hair clog out
a cloggug a clug A clug. Okay, clug.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah. She talks about both her children have since gone
to college in the last sort of year or two,
Apple and Moses, and she talks about how she doesn't
like the term empty Nesta. She likes to call her
and Brad freebirds.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
She loves a new term she loves a Rebra does well.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Actually that was conscious uncoupling instead of divorce. She is
and she's very self conscious about it. And this is
what's really interesting, Like there are so many parts in
this profile where you could say she's really tone deaf.
That's kind of part of her charm and part of
her brand.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Can I ask you about two headlines that I've seen,
and I want you to tell me if they're hyperbolic
or what she actually said. So the first one is
that she's commented on Megan Markle because of course there's
been a bit of hullor Blue. Yeah, that Meghan Markle
has copied the Gwyneth and Gwyneth was accused of copying
the Martha Stewart. Yeah, what did she say about Megan?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, what's interesting is that Martha Stewart slammed Gwyneth when
Grenneth started to do goop, and I suppose the interviewer
was hoping that Gwyneth would then slam Meghan Markle. Now
this was recorded before Meghan Michaels show would come out,
But she said no, I haven't seen an early version
of it. But she said, I don't know Meghan. She said,
I've met her before and she seems perfectly nice, even
though we live in Montecito along with Oprah. And at
(08:29):
one point she looks at the window and says, Oh,
what's that drone there for? And then she's like, oh,
that perhaps get three for the price of one. Me
Harry and Meghan and Oprah when they come to Ontcito anyway,
she's completely nondescript. She says, I wish it well. I
believe that everybody should be able to do what they're
interested in.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
She says that she has a strong instinct to stand
up for women in the culture, and there's a lot
of noise around them, which.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I could understand relate.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, I was very upset to think though, that they're
not hanging out all the time. She did make it
prep about how she'd like to try and take a
pie up there if she could get through security.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Well.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
One of its friends with Oprah, and Oprah is friends
with Meghan, and I'm just surprised.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Friends with Megan anyway. It's interesting because there's a couple
of bits that jumped out to me. One was when
she talks about her business because in the last year,
I've had to lay off quite a lot of stuff.
They laid off about eighteen percent of their stuff, which
is about forty people, and then they laid off another
twelve shortly after that. And she spoke carefully when she
(09:26):
was asked about this, because the press around it was
that Goop was doing very badly and this is why
they had to lay people off, And she said that's
actually not true. We needed to improve our ebitdar. Now
ebitda is.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
So many acronyms.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, she very not self consciously, but kind of naturally,
I guess put on her CEO hadn't started speaking in
business words. So she basically said, we'd become bloated. We'd
hired too many people, we were doing too many things,
that had a multiple podcasts, that had a Netflix show,
they were doing cruisers, they did all these different things.
And she said, we'd become bloated, which is something that
happens to many businesses, and we just had to right
(10:01):
size ourself to be more profitable.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I think all that sounded very convinced totally, though. I
really like the bit sorry where she says, because we
all talked about this is how few years ago Goop
just became like a sex toy shop.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It was just nearly all expensive vibrators and lots of
sexual wellness and very famously the candle that smells like
my vagina and all that and in here she says,
and it's absolutely right because I am one of these people,
she said, the people who come to buy like a
gag gift for their friend, like I have wanted to
buy and my cannel smells like my vagina gift for everyone,
(10:36):
or a vibrator from Goop. Are not the same people
who are going to come back and buy more things.
And that's by like.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
A cashmere throw for a thousand dollar serums and stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
But I don't think that's the only reason why she's
discontinued some of those products. So she did go very
heavy on the vagina for a while, and there was
the Yoni eggs and the.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Jade eggs, and there was a court case.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
That's exactly right. I think that's an important footnote that
in twenty eighteen the company agreed food of.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It's a vage note. Really it's a.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Bad Yeah, exactly right, a vage note. There was a
one hundred and forty five thousand dollars settlement because they
made unsubstantiated medical claims.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
That that's not a big deal in the scheme of dollars.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
You don't want to have consumer protection complaints against you.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, what's interesting, and this is kind of at the
heart of what a lot of the commentary is about.
With this piece, she says that she's very much an
early adopter and that she makes way in the culture
for things to become mainstream. So she said this before
about yoga, which a lot of people were very critical
of because she didn't invent it. She talked about, well,
(11:38):
how she did that with wellness or meditation or all
the things that she was doing. And she's not wrong
about that, because when Goop was talking about wellness and
even things like conscious uncoupling, and she talks about exploring
alternate modalities, which is basically the gateway to other people say, oh,
we're just asking questions, and people are saying the Make
America Healthy Again movement spearheaded by RFK Jr. Who has
(12:04):
some very strong beliefs, anti mainstream, anti science beliefs that
almost like the more hardcore, more trump version of what
Winner's been doing for a long time. And she doesn't
really dispute that she talks about liking raw milk, that
people have lost faith in institutions.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
But that's all true, right, He's one hundred percent right,
And like there are lots that we've discussed this before
on the show, there are lots and lots of women
who believe in traditional medicine and supplementary medicine and alternative
modalities and all these things. And she is not wrong,
Like when she makes a point in here about raw
milk and she's like, there could be dangers to raw milk,
but are we expecting that the dairy industry are going
(12:42):
to be the ones who are gonna spearhead that she's right?
Like this is why people have lost trust in institutions.
The thing is about this is if you listen to
this show, you know that I have a big soft
spot for Gwyneth And it's not because I love her.
I just find her fascinating. And this interview articulated why.
Because if you're a woman, if you're a gen X woman,
(13:04):
she has been around for a very long time. And
one of my Roman empires is that I think about
her ears all the time, right, Like there was the
dating Brad pitt eras, there was the smoking ciggies with
Winona Ryder. She was a skinny girl. She was the
first person I ever heard talk about having a macrobiotic
diet and everyone's like, what's that? And then everyone was doing.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
She was out when everyone else was running.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Then she had her era when she moved to London
and became a housewife and started blogging about bread and
then she was in Marvel and like fix you by
coldplayers about her, like she is a person in the
culture who looms very large, and if you are a
woman in the culture who looms large, you are always
going to attract an enormous amount of shit. And I'm
(13:46):
not saying for a minute that she doesn't deserve some
of that, because what she's trying to sell everybody is
unquestionably a very very privileged, pretty white lady version of aspiration.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
She's the original influence.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
She is in many ways, but I think there's also
a lot to be respected there. I admire the fact
that she's never run away from it all, like the
shit that she has copped over the years, and the
abuse and the round mocking, She's turned a lot of
it to her advantage, which I kind of admire. Also,
she gives a good interview. She's usually quite honest. Like
(14:20):
so Michelle Rue is in her house in Montecito, and
who wouldn't want to go to Gwyneth Pultro's house in
Montecito describes immediately what she's wearing, a Gray's cardigan, white
wide leg jeans and her shiling like clocks. And the
first thing you do is you go, oh, I've got.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
White, white leg jeans.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, every woman in the world is deciding whether she
has any of those things. Then they were the journalist
describes what kind of milk she puts in her coffee,
because everybody wants to know what kind of milk Gwyneth
Paltrow puts in a coffee, either because they want to
copy her or they want to take.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
The piss out of her for it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So there's a level of fascination that I just love
to lean into.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I read another headline that referred to the slight Gwyneth
Paltrow made against Blake Lively in this Yeah, in this profile,
that's that's an I read the entire profile. Couldn't find
the slight. This is where they've tried to up a
bit of tension on the discussion of intimacy coordinators, which
is big in Hollywood at the moment because in the
(15:17):
Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni lawsuit.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Since Me Too, they've been intimacy couaday.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yes, it is, but it's the geist because Lively said
we didn't have one and we should have had one,
and everyone has one.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And they choreographed sex scenes and.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Gwyneth Paltrow in talking about her new film, which is
excuse my French, but Hollywayen Writ's Wet Dream, which is
Gwyneth Paltrow with a very young Timothy Schallamey. She says
they were offered an intimacy coordinator, and she basically went,
what the hell this is interrupting my process? And I
read that and went, oh, yeah, well power to you.
(15:52):
I like the idea that you're offered it, but I
don't think that it's mandatory that you use it. If
you feel like it's consensual and comfortable and you know
what your job is. But she has been roundly criticized
even since last morning.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
It did come across, and of course her process is
a process, but it did come across a little bit
like you're a pussy if you need one.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I don't think so. Because then she had a line
clarifying it about being someone who was maybe just entering
the industry or being a little bit younger. It's interesting
to consider whether her and Timothy sit together and decide
whether you have an intimacy coord They did.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
She said, we talked about it. She is funny about that,
because Okay, first of all, why is she doing this profile? Yep,
we should cover that off. The reason is, there's two reasons.
The first is she's starting acting again. I think it's
two reasons. I mean her. Brad Falchuk gives a quote
and says, Gwyneth is a supermum with absolutely no irony.
Gwyneth is a supermam. Her mum's stuff and this is
(16:48):
very and she loved so much. She was so fulfilled
when the kids were growing up, and she didn't want
to travel and she wanted to be at home with them,
which is fair enough. But now that they've left, she's
feeling herself again. She's exploring. She's a free bird. She's
getting back to acting. So after fifteen years, she's done
a couple of little things, but she's getting back to acting.
In her first leading role after that is this movie
(17:09):
where you won't believe this. She plays an older woman
having an affair with the younger man. He's a ping
pong player and he's Timothy Chalamey, and she's quite funny.
She says, look, I'm one hundred and nine and you're fourteen. Okay,
I know she's quite funny. And when photos of them
on the set appeared a few months ago, people speculated
that she was playing his mother. And that's interesting too
(17:30):
because the interviewer also says, unlike a lot of her
contemporaries in Hollywood, she has not filled her lips or
her lines on her face. And that's true when you
see her. She's a spokesperson for a type of botox,
but she natural. Yeah, she's not shy about the fact
that she does tweatments, but she does not look overfilled
(17:51):
like her contemporaries. Right. So the first reason is to
announce her return to acting, but I think that was
more just a hook. The real reason she's done it
is because she's been trying to sell group for quite
a while and all the bad publicity around them right
sizing and having to sack people. And she also did
a diffusion line called Good Clean Goop in Target that
was a disaster, and there was a lot of negative
(18:14):
press about her business. So she really needed to re
establish that her business was actually successful. And I also
think she's working probably because she's a free bird, but
I also got the sense probably needs a bit of
revenue into the company there is that's fine, So that's
why she's doing the.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Time that she sounds the most cranky because, as I said, before.
She's weathered a lot of that criticism, and she always
says that's what you get when you're a trailblazer and
blah blah. But there is a bit where she kind
of says, but when it affects your bottom line, it's
not funny anymore, which kind of makes it sound like
that some of that criticism really has been affecting the
bottom line.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Oh, I would have been, because it's very bad for brand,
and there would have been investors. I think the smartest
thing to do if she wants to sell the company
is to a point of CEO that's not her well.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Absolutely, because she talks in this and I was thinking about,
you may because she talks about I'm the kind of
CEO who or the journalist says, likes to be on slack,
likes to be involved, but I don't like Excel spreadsheets.
And I was like, I've heard this story. My smart
friend Mia went, you know what, Yeah, the CEO does.
There's a lot that's very mid about this interview, right, Gwinneth,
if you ever feel like coming on, because she's all
(19:18):
about moving into her next phase. I'm in raging Perry menopause.
I'm doing something new, and that's what all women this
age are like. It's like hilarious how she is the
most rarefied and the most basic at.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
The same time.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And she's also following in the footsteps, she says of
a Cameron Diaz.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Except you're just basic. But I haven't gone shilling clog.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
That she talks about how she's following in the footsteps
of a Cameron Diaz and a Demi Moore who did
step away for a little while and then came back
a going I've had so much more experience. I think
I'm actually going to be better at my craft.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And she was a very good actress, she actually and
so there'll be high stakes Christmas Day everybody. By the way,
the movie that's a long wait out loud as in
a moment, how a feel good family remake has become
a cultural hot potato. We are talking about snow White.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
This was my father's kingdom, a place of fairness, but
the queen changed everything.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Take him away, your majesty, What did you.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Say The people need some kindness in a I really
don't remember you being this opinion needed, Let's make a
live action snow White must have seemed like a no brainer.
For Disney back in twenty and sixty whatever could go wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I know when the film.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That's being released here tomorrow was conceived. After all, there
had already been a live action Cinderella, a live action
Beauty and the Beast, a live action Little Mermaid, a
live action Lionking, and realize, live action mean it means
not a cartoon, so real life princesses. They would have
thought it even more fun than cartoon ones. They can
go out there and wear red carpet dresses and do
(21:03):
interviews and walk and talk.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The peceptis, Oh, how the world.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Can spire to prove them wrong? Very quick rundown. If
you've been seeing headlines around about snow white and most
controversial ever, Da da da da da, I'm gonna give
you a quick rundown of the controversies so that you
know plural plural definitely.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
So.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
First of all, movie production was meant to start in
twenty nineteen. It was delayed by COVID very understandably, but
the casting finally gets announced in twenty twenty one and
immediately starts fires in some corners.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Of the internet.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Rachel Zegler, you might know her from West Side Story.
She's an amazing singer. She's a teeny tiny little actress,
really good actress was cast in the lead. The thing
is snow White, which let's remember the cartoon version was
made in nineteen thirty seven. Snow White is the fairest
of them all, with skin as white as snow. It's
literally where she got her name. And Zegler, who does
(21:57):
look a lot like a Disney princess, to be honest,
is of Colombian descent. So that was the start of
the Disney's Gone woke drums, right.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So there was some pushback around that time, wasn't there
about oh, why have they gone woke? Why have they cast?
And there was a similar pushback around when they cast
Hallie Bailey as the Little Mermaid, and she is an
actress of color as well, and there was a lot
of pushback about our Disney so wake when they're just
trying to do you.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Want cartoon princesses to look like the cartoon princesses, is
what people say. Then Peter Dinklich, who's probably the most
high profile actor of short stature in the world thanks
to Game of Thrones among other things, publicly questioned the
whole premise of bringing back a movie about seven dwarves.
This is him speaking about that on Mark Maron's podcast.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
This is what he says, Well, you know, it's really
progressive to cast literally no offense to anything. But I
was little taken back by the they're very proud to
cast a Latino actress as snow white. Yeah, but you're
still telling the story seven dwarfs. Sure take a step
(23:12):
back and look at what you're doing there. Yeah, you know,
I think it makes no sense to me, So what
would be You're progressive in one way and then but
you're still making that fucking backward oh story about seven
dwarves living in a cave. To get what the fuck
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Man?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You know?
Speaker 6 (23:30):
Have I have I done nothing to advance the cause
from my soapbox? I guess I'm not loud enough. I
don't know what. I don't know what studio that is,
but it was. They were so proud of that, and
all love and respect to that, to the actress and
to the people who thought they were doing the right thing.
But I'm just like, you don't what.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Are you doing?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The seven Dwarfs in the final film and now cgi
magical creatures who are still called sneezy and dopey, and
they look just like really the Seven Dwarfs.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
They're not referred to as dwarfs.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
No, and Disney said they did that to avoid in
quotes reinforcing stereotypes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
So I heard that. Then some act with dwarfism pushed
back on Peter Dinklige and said, hey, there's not a
lot of roles for us in Hollywood. Glad that you've
got all of them. That's seven roles that we could
have got that now aren't available to us because you've
scared everybody off.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I think that the choice was unpopular in some circles
to then do the CGI, because then they're voiced by people,
but the people who are voicing it are not necessarily
people of small stature, so that can be seen as ablest.
I think they were between a rock and a hard
place with that decision. It was a really, really hard one.
But when ableism is entrenched in the actual fabric of
(24:45):
the story, that's something you're gonna have to deal with
head on.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So that was another one, yeah, of the controversies.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Then I haven't even started making a movie again.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Then a conflict erupted in the Middle East. Nothing to
do with a cute fairy tale movie. You might imagine
wrong because the evil queen in this movie is being
played by wonder woman Galgadot, who famously served in the
Israeli Defense Force. Her coastar Zegler, publicly declared her sympathy
for Palestine on social media. So now the two leads
(25:17):
are on opposite sides of the most divisive conflict on
the plan.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And you've got Getot speaking publicly. Yeah, they're both quite
active on social media. Yeah they are. And it's probably
important to clarify to that military service in Israel is
mandatory for almost all people. But she's speaking really openly
about free the hostages.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
And she made public speeches, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Exactly, And imagine Disney at this point. I know then
are their agents.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Then Zekler made a comment about how the original plotline
about the handsome prince who awakes snow white with a
kiss was a bit off, and suggested that she was
involved in an update. This is what she said.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
The original cartoon came out in nineteen thirty seven, and
very evidently so there is a big focus on her
love story.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
With a guy who literally stalks her.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
Weird, weird, so we didn't do that this time.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So no prince or a different kind of prince.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
We have a different approach to what I'm sure a
lot of people will assume is a love story just
because like we cast a guy in the movie and
jaw burna. It's really not about the love story at all,
which is really really wonderful, and whether or not she
finds love along the way is anybody's guess until twenty
twenty four. It's an inner journey that she goes on
to find her true self and she meets a lot
of people along the way that make the journey really incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
That really pissed off a lot of the Disney's Gone
Woke gang. We didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Disney fans love a love story.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Like what she said, It's almost like that is what
every actress who plays a Disney princess in modern times
has to contend with the idea that, oh, but isn't
it all just about a handsome prince comes along? And
so I feel that fairytales have evolved, or the portrayal
of them have evolved, and they should evolve.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Right, Yeah, But there's a dance to be done. There
is a dance with any sort of remake where what
you're trying to do is capture the audience who loves
the original and find a new audience in the modern moment.
So imagine if with Bridget Joanes rene Zelwega just came
out and trashed the original and was like, yeah, that
was really fat, phobic and regressive, she would have lost
a portion of the audience. So I think that there
(27:18):
is a real careful dance of just like I respect
the other. There are a few updates that we've You're right.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think one of the things that you have to
bear in mind all the time, because we've got one
more of these controversies, is that Zegler is twenty three. Yeah, okay.
Then when Trump won the twenty twenty four election, Zegler again,
she's twenty three. Not that I'm editorializing.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Posted about it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
She posted, may Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump
himself never no peace, fuck Donald Trump. Now the thing
is those people are now in charge, she may have noticed,
and they have been primed and ready to attack this
massive Disney property on all fronts. Now it's in cinemas,
(28:04):
but everything about the launch has been scaled back. No
non Disney approved lists were allowed at the La Red
carpet premiere, it was mostly influences. It was held in
the middle of the day. Now, Goodott and Zegler did
post together, then it's not like they're scrapping publicly or anything.
They did post together, and they did present at the
Oscars together. But now anytime that anywhere near each other all,
(28:25):
anyone's looking for the signs of tension. So generally Disney
is sending them off separately to do separate things. So
good Dot was sent to one of the Disney parks
to post with lots of little girls, and Zegler was
sent to Spain to sing to lots of little girls,
and the movie.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Was taken away.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Let's remember, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Can you imagine the conversations with the publicists, and the
movie that cost half a billion US dollars all up
with production and promotion, is now projected to make a
tiny fraction of that the domestic box office, even though
the people who've actually seen it say it's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
What are we I have a few theories about what's
going on here. When you are an actor like Galga
Dot or Zegla, you have your own personal brand, and
personal brand is becoming increasingly important. And for Zeglar, that
brand is about feminism, it is about human rights, It
is about being outspoken and progressive.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
So is Galgatotts ironically, yes, yeah it is.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
It is, but Zegler has been in different ways. She's
been more outspoken on social and with the Trump comment,
what I think is difficult is when that brand comes
in conflict with a bigger brand. I remember us talking
about something years ago that was like a brand can't
exist within a brand, And I think this is the
issue with press tours, is that the point of a
(29:49):
press tour is that we are promoting Snow White the
Disney Show, where the ven diagram of Trump fans and
Disney fans there is overlap. Therefore, we do not upset
Trump supporters.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Well, you don't want to say you don't want to
upset anyone, No, exactly. And also, can't we just go
to our Disney film and just the news cycle behind us,
which is what everyone wants?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yet which you can. And lots of people are saying
that this movie will probably be successful anyway because and
as someone who's you know, my kids are older now,
but parents love a family movie. They will take their
kids to this regardless because they don't care about culture wars.
But you're so right that the comments by Ziegler in particular,
particularly the Trump ones, have given a lot of people
(30:34):
a reason not to go yes.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And I think that when the audience, like the Snow White,
we are launching a movie publicity meeting, in terms of
our talking points are not at all what the talking
points of the two lead actors would be. And I
think that this is where presstours are going wrong. I
also think the lead up is too long and people
say too much shit. You give people enough airtime and
(30:56):
it's like they've been talking about this for years, and
everything they say then reflects on the movie. The film
has also been canceled from the left and the right,
which is a terrific feat.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I guess it shows that it's balanced.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, it's polarized everyone from every walk of life, and
it has also come at a moment. I think that
this is probably the perfect storm of rolled back DEI
of a moment in American popular culture where racism is
rearing its ugly head again in quite an explicit way,
(31:33):
like it's always existed. But I think that to have
a snow White that's a person of color just touches
the buttons of people who feel like they have license
again to be outrageously racist.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Isn't it sad that inclusivity, which is such a great thing,
and all the little girls who can't be what they
can't see and such a positive thing I think for
the world, has been weaponized and called woke as if
it's an insult, as if it's a terrible thing. And
the word anti woke, which can sometimes b euphemism for
(32:10):
being cruel or racist or intolerant of others or I'm
thinking and unkind. That's become a badge that some people
like to wear. And I wanted to ask you, Jesse,
do you think you know once upon a time, Rene
Zellweger could walk a red carpet, Julia Roberts could walk
a red carpet, Cameron Diaz could walk a red carpet
and they would not be asked their opinion on cultural issues.
(32:31):
Do you think that's possible now, in the age of
social media, for anyone to do that?
Speaker 3 (32:37):
This is what I mean about brand as I was
thinking about sort of a Julia robertson notting Hill. We
don't know what she stood for don't stand for anything.
Don't she just was she stood for notting Hill. That
was the she.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Had Harry under Ams the one time has a big
deal an accident.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I think we're about to see that coming back. And
your point you just made me, which is absolutely spot
on about inclusive casting, has probably had its day for
a while, which is depressing as all hell, right, because
there's no question that Rachel's egglers looking great. There's snow white,
everybody is saying, and she looks a lot like her anyway.
But I think that we are about to see it
coming back because after the massive backlash on Hollywood stars
(33:13):
who were almost unilaterally supporting progressive causes and have had
no impact whatsoever on any of the election results or
any of those things, the intense risk on these movies,
which are so expensive to make, I think that we're
going to go back to a very ad nine like
don't ask me anything.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I also policy think that this is a very public
example of something that is happening within the arts, which
is a real division, especially with what's happening in the
Middle East, between these these two camps who are clashing
and feeling threatened and feeling undermined and This is the
thing about diversity, right. You can go, oh, we want
(33:52):
people to look different, but diversity also means that people
are going to show up with different opinions. And I
thought that, you know, seeing them at the Oscars standing there,
they've both behaved very of.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Course, to be clear, they have not like said anything
about each other or been you know, verbally or otherwise
unching on about any issues. It's all been projected on them.
It's really complicated, but I predict it will be a
big hit, if not in theaters and streaming, because family
movies are the bread and butter. Like Bluey I Think,
(34:22):
which obviously is an Australian property, is one of Disney
Plus's most successful properties.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Full Stop.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Parents want things to watch with their kids. They don't
care about all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a
giver as well as the recipient.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
There's a homeowner who has some feedback and they've been
in the news this week because their house was open
for inspection and they have a sign on the toilet
that has gone viral and it says, please don't use
this toilet. Thank you. People are apparently taking a break
from inspecting homes to use the toilet. Real estate agents
(35:04):
aren't happy. They've said people come to inspections and use
the toilet. I find it gross. A lot of the
time people that come to use the toilet aren't even
there to inspect the property. Oh my god, thought of that.
Busting to go to the loo when you're walking down
the street. Just pop into an open for inspection. People
don't do that. And this real estate agent that's quoted
in the article says it's like coming to our house
(35:25):
inspection and using the microwave to heat up food if
that food was pooh. I added that last.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I can't believe have you had people do this.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I've done it, not a pooh, but I've done wheeze
in it in an open people walking through.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I don't know what open inspectors you're going to, but
for me, there are three hundred people elbowing each other
out of the way.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
It is a it's got to be a quiet one.
It's going to be a quiet to be. It can't
be like a studio apartment.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I would not and be like, I want to see
the shower.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
This has happened in my world. One of my children
did this. We were looking at an open house when
we were when we moved, and I'd lost one of
my children from because they had to come because who
was going to look after them? And I was like,
where have they gone? Where they're gone? Indeed, they were
in the bathroom. The door was not locked and they
were using it for a number two. Oh. I thought
that was mortifying enough until our producer Ruth told us
(36:23):
that that also happened to her when our kids were
a little except that that toilet was not even connected
to the plumbing.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Okay, so this used to be. I remember going and
looking at and remember display homes. I remembering looking when
I was a kid at at display homes with Mum,
and I definitely considered using one of those toilets. But
you look down and it's like concrete or some like.
It's not it's not plugged in at all. I don't
know how you rectify that situation.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
After the break, there's a surprising new beauty standard that's
crept in by Stealth, and no one has been talking
about until now.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers follow the
link in the show notes to get us in your
ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
to all our current.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
You released a bunch of venomous snakes today. You do
realize that you're fucking deranged.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
We need to talk about teeth. For weeks, viewers of
The White Lotus have been marveling at Amy lou Wood's teeth.
There's a photo on our instagram if you like to see.
If you've not been.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Watched bunny teeth.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
They're calling them.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Well, yes, Kerry Sackville is calling it bunny teeth for
the Sydney Morning Herald. But they are so unlike what
we normally see on television that they were actually acknowledged
on screen. Her friend Chloe remarked, I love your teeth
the character. Yes, yes, they are front and center. So
Kerry Sackville wrote that these bunny teeth give her hope.
She argues that quirky female faces are almost exclusively on
(37:59):
character actors who play supporting roles. If we ever see them,
they're supporting roles. But what's exciting is that not only
is would a lead, but she's a trophy girlfriend of
an old demand. She is positioned as desirable and attractive.
Vanity Fair called her teeth not just charming but inspiring,
and would herself have spoken about how her teeth were
(38:19):
a source of great insecurity. Growing up, she was bullied
for them. She didn't believe she'd ever be able to
work in television, and now she finds her smile empowering
and rebellious, although she says she'll never be able to
play an American. She said Americans do not have teeth
like hers. Holly, do you think that's true?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
One hundred percent truth. Amy is from where I'm from. Friend,
She is from Stockport, which is very close to Manchester,
so she is obviously a legend of all kinds. Yeah,
she's gorgeous. See that's one of the things we weren't
saying about this, is like she's got unusual teeth, but
she's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, but it is one hundred cent
tru she couldn't play an American. You're probably not that
(38:58):
familiar with English TV, but when I was growing up
and you're watching, the biggest shows in Britain were the
soap operas EastEnders.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Watch Bill, there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Nobody has perfect white teeth, but there are no shows
on American television where people do not have perfect white teeth.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Do you know why that is?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Well, the stereotype is that British people have bad dental care.
It's not actually true. If you dig into the research,
they have quite good dental care.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
They have fluorid in the water.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I think that some places do and some places don't.
But going to the dentist in Britain is subsidized for
kids and things like that. But there is just a
very different culture of everybody getting their teeth sorted out.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
So is it a marker of status? But even yeah,
rich people have nice teeth, but I've seen a lot
of posh people that actually don't.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I know that would also be a mark. That would
also be a mark of rebellion, because there's also a
little well not rebellion. But you see, the thing is
I snorted when somebody said that her teeth were like,
her teeth are inspiring, Like it's ridiculous, the idea that
normal face with normal features and like, what's the word?
No one has intervened on those teeth, that's the only thing, right,
(40:04):
So teeth that have not had intervention are like brave
and inspiring gandicity to me, I.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Think We've got to acknowledge though, that it is subversive
because her teeth my teeth without years of work. And
I got probably two years of dental work, and I
remember my mum sitting with the orthodontist and trying to
untangle what was cosmetic and what was truly necessary, which
has become increasingly blurry.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Because also we have to be clear, dental work is
so expensive. It is a marker of status, because yeah,
not everybody has like ten thousand dollars to be thrown
away on their kids' teeth just so that they have
the teeth that everyone has on TV.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yes, but I think that the orthodontic thing, like yes,
as that. But there's also the reason that people get braces,
and the reason that people get work done is often
too for like health reasons, like for jaw pain and
for being able to clean it. Like I still have
crowding that makes flossing and everything difficult. But to see
(41:02):
what my teeth looked like and I got dental it'd
probably started when I was about twelve, and I did
the retainers and stuff. I remember being please self conscious
about the gap between my teeth as a kid. I
remember people would say to me, but Madonna has a gap,
and that was their way of making me feel better
about the fact that my teeth looked different. But I've
even felt it as an adult on television when you
(41:24):
look around and you go, I'm the only one without veneers,
and there's a look on television of the big.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
White twiglet teeth, tee teeth.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I think it's more prevalent in America, where you almost
can't even see that they're separate teeth. They're like a
big white thing over the top, and it is definitely
a marker of class. You see a lot of sort
of reality TV stars that the moment they can afford it,
they go and get one hundred percent smile transformed.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I think it's the new baseline, and I don't think
that's necessarily a good thing, but I think it's one
of those ones. I refer to it earlier as a
stealth beauty standard, because there are other things that are
more obvious, like lip filler, boob jobs, buming plants. Even
when everyone was wearing eyelash extensions and looked like they
had little awnings over their eyes, you can notice those
(42:12):
things more. But with teeth, it's only when you look
back at something. I was watching Muriel's Wedding again with
my kids a couple of years ago, and I was
so struck by Tony Collette and Rachel Griffiths and everyone
in that film. They had their own teeth, They had
regular teeth, and it was shocking compared to even them
(42:33):
compared to now. They didn't look terrible, but they just
looked so different. And teeth is one of those things
that I don't notice people's teeth unless they're really terrible
or missing. I was very self conscious about my teeth,
so I've got very big teeth. I stuck my thumb
till I was twelve. I had very buck teeth.
Speaker 5 (42:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I used to be called Bucky Beaver, and I always.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Assumed but Amy Lee was called Bucky Beaver too, except
to Manchester and.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Bookie Beaver Bookie Beava. I assumed that I would have
to have braces. A lot of my friends had braces.
I went to see orthodontist and he's like, no, You've
got something called a tongue thrust, which means that at
rest boring to any one. I'm riveted. At rest, my
tongue sat behind my teeth. Okay, instead of my body anyway,
(43:16):
I changed it and my teeth of the gap because
I said to biggap, and my teeth closed up. They
haven't got smaller, but I guess my face has got
biggert anyway. For a long time.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
You know what I'm gonna say. People think about themselves
too much, don't they? Yeah, people think about themselves a
little too A long time though.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
People thought I had had my teeth done, and people
still do. And some people when we were preparing for
this segment today, were like, oh, I just assumed that
you'd had your teeth white and or you'd had your
teeth done. And when I started Mum and me, there
was this commentary that was obsessed with my the fact
that I'd had my teeth done, and that I was
lying about it and claimed to know the dentist who
did it and all this stuff. I actually haven't had
my teeth done. I don't drink red wine, I don't
drink coffee, and I've fixed my tongue thrust.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Do you think though, firstly, teeth discoloration, which is even
just the wrong word because we don't want teeth to
be teeth colored anymore.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
But you know what is teeth tht.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, but it's teeth blinding blinding.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You go to look at the shades of white in
a dentist like, it's amazing. It's more than when you're
picking paint for your house.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Don't you think it's like an arms race? Though? I
think that the teeth, it's become the arms race of teeth.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yeah, teeth. What's interesting about it, though, is that it
is a beauty standard that my male friends, you know,
their insecurity is maybe their hairline and the color of
their teeth. Like it's the one thing I'll see men
do is go, do you use any teeth what like.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Their penis size product? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
But the other thing is that when you go to
the dentist, So I wonder if this has something to
do with it. The health or the dental check is
kind of confused with the cosmetic and the up selling
and the up selling. So you go there and you
sit in the chair and I'll go for a clean
and you know, to check if I've got any holes
or whatever. Often you'll see on the wall there's a
(44:55):
poster telling you to get especially around weddings. It's like
are you getting married?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Like, yeah, used to be make sure you have a
manicure the day before your wedding. Now it's like your
teeth program six months out. But I'm the opposite. I
went to my dentist two weeks ago and I tried
to convince him do I need my teeth whitened? This
is what I mean about an arms race, And I've
got really white teeth. And he's like, no, no, you don't.
And I'm like, should I use whitening toothpaste? He goes,
(45:21):
not really it or make your teeth sensitive? And I'm
like I was using whitening toothpaste and my teeth were sensitive.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
Yeah, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Don't you think it's part of the instagrammification of women's
faces that it's like everyone's got the same teeth, everyone's
got the same lips, everyone's got the same cheeks. You know,
whether it's on a red carpet, not a lot of
natural teeth on the oscars red carpet.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I wonder what this signals. I wonder if it could
potentially signal a shift that we go if you have like, okay,
this I mean Amy lose teeth, Amy lose teeth. I
wonder if we look at it, and I'm looking at
that going Oh, but she's beautiful, but I love her
teeth looking like that when everything is homogeneous, if there's
this real appeal of someone who comes out, I remember
(46:02):
watching it recently with Kieran Knightley in Black Doves. Her
forehead moved and I went, oh, forads can move like
I won w If this subversion might signal a new trend.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I don't know. I'd like to think that, but I
think she's just the outlie that proves the rule, because
why else would Vanity Fair and all the media be
writing whole stories about the teeth of one actor on
White Lotus.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
A massive thank you out louders for listening to us
today and for being here as always, and to our
fabulous team for putting the show together. We're going to
be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
And if you are looking for something else to listen to.
On yesterday's subscriber episode, we sat down with our friend
Emily Vernham who joined us for a very special Ask
Us Anything. We talked about new dating apps. I mentioned
one on the show a while ago. We talked more
about that and also a new one that all my
friends are swearing by. The three questions that Emma says
you should definitely ask on a first day.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I was so shocked to yes first.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Ah, me too. And also you might have seen the
story of the influencer who took a baby one bat
from its mother. Oh, we talk about that we didn't
have an opportunity to on the show, and we also
shared the TV and TV storylines and tropes that we
are so done with seeing on our screens. We will
pop a link in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Bye bye, out louders you still hear We've got a
little treat to check who the out louders at the
top of the leader board are that listened to right
at the end of the show. Here's a hot tip
we learnt about at the end of our planning meeting
when our CEO marched into the kitchen and said she's
got to run across the road to Woolies because the
(47:35):
new twenty dollars Anya hind Marsh bag. It's like a
carry bag, like the kind of bag you know, a
reusable kind of a bag. It's called the Universal Bag.
It's an echo friendly tote available in green and blue.
It has a ten year guarantee. I don't know why
you need a ten year guarantee on your bag, but
she's on a mission to encourage shoppers to ditch plastics.
(47:56):
She usually makes very expensive bags that are worth hundreds
of dollars. You can get it now from Woolies for
twenty dollars. And this is not an ad. This is
just a public service in normal.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Treat Shout out to Annie, Mamma Maya. Subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
A Gwyneth Paltrow profile cover story in fact, dropped in
Vanity Fair today, and there are so many morsels.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's like hilarious how she is the most rarefied and
the most basic at the same time.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
And she's also following in the footsteps she says of
a camera dias.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Except you're just basic.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But I haven't got SHITLINGKF, Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia.
Out loud, what women actually talking about On Wednesday, the
nineteenth of March. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm me.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
A Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And on the show today, it must be my birthday
because a big new profile of Gwyneth Paltrow has dropped,
and it tells us a lot about what it takes
to be a female mogul, movie star, sex symbol, cultural icon.
In twe twenty.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You've manifested something in that story, which is.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
The content gods have delivered to us today.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
And all of that is very instructive for the rest
of us mere mortals. So we're going to unpack that. Also,
the new Snow White remake has everything half billion dollar budget,
troll in, flaming casting decisions, apparently feuding co stars, a
hot mess of a press tour except for an audience
and teeth. How the White lotuses Amy lou wood is
(01:37):
upending the rules about a Hollywood actress's face and mouth
is meant to look like. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
In case you missed it, NASA SpaceX astronauts Butch Wilmore
and Sunny Williams have finally returned from the International Space
Station after getting stuck.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I've been thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I've been watching this story very closely because I needed
them home and they've come home. So the pair was
scheduled to have a week long mission, but technical issues
you don't want their men's face, and delays with their
ride home. That's the Boeing star Liner capsule meant they
spent two hundred and eighty six days up there or
nine months.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Can you imagine you're going away for a week.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah. And also like delays, it's like what was there
like a space shuttle strike?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
So there were issues with the something about helium. I
imagine here's how I imagined it.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Details.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
The spaceship came had big holes in it, That's how
I imagine it. And they went, couldn't get on, and
that felt like not a good idea.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
We've seen Apolo thirteenth. They explained it to a kid,
something broke on your daddy's ship.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
That's happened something and they didn't get on it. Good move, okay,
other than probably not packing enough underwear. There's been a
lot of talk about some issues that Wilmore and Williams
have encountered. So in November of last year, images of Williams,
in particular, she's the fifty nine year old female astronaut.
You might have seen photos of her. They prompted widespread
(02:57):
concern because she had lost a significant amount of weight,
and the effects of space travel are known to be
harsher on women. They lose muscle at a faster rate.
So after two hundred and eighty six days in space,
I'm going to tell you what happen as to the
human body, how they came back right, So, significant bone
density loss, no matter how many weight, how much cottage,
(03:17):
you know, she had to eat at least double the
calories that like I don't know how you would get
in as much food.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And then two hours of it and it's not yummy food.
It's not yemmy freeze dried space food.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, yeah, horrible.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
How do you even do exercise in space if there's
no grad.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It's like an exercise bike and you get on that
for literally two hours and waited.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You'd be fine.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Temporary height increase by at least a few centimeters taller
because the discs like because they don't have the gravitational push. Yeah,
fluid shifts towards the head, meaning that you become really congested,
so you can have a running nose, headache, lots of issues.
And that also skin though probably yes, except for the
gaunt because of all the weight we've lost and you
(04:01):
come back with vision is skin.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Car space, he'd probably run out, he'd run out of
like she wouldn't need tempons, especially if you thought you
were going for a week.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Remember there was a woman who was going to space
and they gave them one hundred tampons for a week
long mission. I'm pretty sure she didn't even have a period.
But what it exemplified was how science astronauts in space
do not understand women and their periods. Loss of taste
and smell, which is apparently a good thing because that
capsule is not smelling good by the end, Increased cancer risk,
increased likelihood of kidney stones due to dehydration. You come
(04:36):
back very dizzy and fatigue.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Sounds great sign me that here's.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
A good thing. You come back all your skin baby
soft because nothing's rubbed against it, so you know, even
your feet like shoes, and you like. You come back
like a new.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, skinny, sick with brit Or bones.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
And apparently a lot of the astronauts never get used
to sleeping in space, so this can be the hardest thing,
is a sleep deprivation. Nine months without a good night sleep.
I've read somewhere that they sleep like bats upside down.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Shut up the blood rushing to the head. That would
make that worse. I don't understand space. Not all of
this information has clearly been lost on me, But.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
So not go then. They a quite Paltrow profile cover
story in fact dropped in Vanity Fair today, and there
are so many morsels. She hasn't done a big interview
like this for quite a long time, and there's many
many parts to this interview. She spoke about Goop, being
the CEO of Goop group's been around for I think
(05:39):
about ten or fifteen years. She's still the CEO. She
spoke about her divorce from Chris Martin and how they
are this big, blended family along with her new husband
Brad Felchuck, his ex wife, various children, girlfriend's partners. It
was recorded just after the big wildfires in La so
(06:01):
to set the scene, she had to flee her Hollywood home,
which she has since sold, which was undamaging the fires
in the end, but she had to go to her
Montecito home, which you may remember is where Megan Markle
and Oprah live. So that's I think an hour or
so out of the heart of Hollywood. And while the
interviewer was there, the removalists were bringing some of the
(06:24):
furniture from her Hollywood home to the Monticito home, things
like her pilates reformer. What were some of the other things.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
The cases of wine, her cases.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Of wine, and she was what was she doing? She
was talking to.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
The speaking to the crew in perfect Spanish. It said,
the details in this are so good. The crew unloads
at least one Pilartes reformer. Someone asks Paltrow's head of
security where she wants the wine. Paltrow speaks to staff
as influence Spanish, and then she nuzzles foul Chuck, who's
appeared by the side door in a shawl collared sweater
and shealing clogs. Gwyneth is also wearing shealing clogs.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Everyone's wearing shaling sheepskin, and so it would be like
kind of like you know, those birkenstocks.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And clogs, but with sheepskin, it's like hair clog out
a cloggug a clug A clug. Okay, clug.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah. She talks about both her children have since gone
to college in the last sort of year or two,
Apple and Moses, and she talks about how she doesn't
like the term empty Nesta. She likes to call her
and Brad freebirds.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
She loves a new term she loves a Rebra does well.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Actually that was conscious uncoupling instead of divorce. She is
and she's very self conscious about it. And this is
what's really interesting, Like there are so many parts in
this profile where you could say she's really tone deaf.
That's kind of part of her charm and part of
her brand.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Can I ask you about two headlines that I've seen,
and I want you to tell me if they're hyperbolic
or what she actually said. So the first one is
that she's commented on Megan Markle because of course there's
been a bit of hullor Blue. Yeah, that Meghan Markle
has copied the Gwyneth and Gwyneth was accused of copying
the Martha Stewart. Yeah, what did she say about Megan?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, what's interesting is that Martha Stewart slammed Gwyneth when
Grenneth started to do goop, and I suppose the interviewer
was hoping that Gwyneth would then slam Meghan Markle. Now
this was recorded before Meghan Michaels show would come out,
But she said no, I haven't seen an early version
of it. But she said, I don't know Meghan. She said,
I've met her before and she seems perfectly nice, even
though we live in Montecito along with Oprah. And at
(08:29):
one point she looks at the window and says, Oh,
what's that drone there for? And then she's like, oh,
that perhaps get three for the price of one. Me
Harry and Meghan and Oprah when they come to Ontcito anyway,
she's completely nondescript. She says, I wish it well. I
believe that everybody should be able to do what they're
interested in.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
She says that she has a strong instinct to stand
up for women in the culture, and there's a lot
of noise around them, which.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I could understand relate.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, I was very upset to think though, that they're
not hanging out all the time. She did make it
prep about how she'd like to try and take a
pie up there if she could get through security.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Well.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
One of its friends with Oprah, and Oprah is friends
with Meghan, and I'm just surprised.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Friends with Megan anyway. It's interesting because there's a couple
of bits that jumped out to me. One was when
she talks about her business because in the last year,
I've had to lay off quite a lot of stuff.
They laid off about eighteen percent of their stuff, which
is about forty people, and then they laid off another
twelve shortly after that. And she spoke carefully when she
(09:26):
was asked about this, because the press around it was
that Goop was doing very badly and this is why
they had to lay people off, And she said that's
actually not true. We needed to improve our ebitdar. Now
ebitda is.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
So many acronyms.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, she very not self consciously, but kind of naturally,
I guess put on her CEO hadn't started speaking in
business words. So she basically said, we'd become bloated. We'd
hired too many people, we were doing too many things,
that had a multiple podcasts, that had a Netflix show,
they were doing cruisers, they did all these different things.
And she said, we'd become bloated, which is something that
happens to many businesses, and we just had to right
(10:01):
size ourself to be more profitable.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I think all that sounded very convinced totally, though. I
really like the bit sorry where she says, because we
all talked about this is how few years ago Goop
just became like a sex toy shop.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It was just nearly all expensive vibrators and lots of
sexual wellness and very famously the candle that smells like
my vagina and all that and in here she says,
and it's absolutely right because I am one of these people,
she said, the people who come to buy like a
gag gift for their friend, like I have wanted to
buy and my cannel smells like my vagina gift for everyone,
(10:36):
or a vibrator from Goop. Are not the same people
who are going to come back and buy more things.
And that's by like.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
A cashmere throw for a thousand dollar serums and stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
But I don't think that's the only reason why she's
discontinued some of those products. So she did go very
heavy on the vagina for a while, and there was
the Yoni eggs and the.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Jade eggs, and there was a court case.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
That's exactly right. I think that's an important footnote that
in twenty eighteen the company agreed food of.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It's a vage note. Really it's a.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Bad Yeah, exactly right, a vage note. There was a
one hundred and forty five thousand dollars settlement because they
made unsubstantiated medical claims.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
That that's not a big deal in the scheme of dollars.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
You don't want to have consumer protection complaints against you.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, what's interesting, and this is kind of at the
heart of what a lot of the commentary is about.
With this piece, she says that she's very much an
early adopter and that she makes way in the culture
for things to become mainstream. So she said this before
about yoga, which a lot of people were very critical
of because she didn't invent it. She talked about, well,
(11:38):
how she did that with wellness or meditation or all
the things that she was doing. And she's not wrong
about that, because when Goop was talking about wellness and
even things like conscious uncoupling, and she talks about exploring
alternate modalities, which is basically the gateway to other people say, oh,
we're just asking questions, and people are saying the Make
America Healthy Again movement spearheaded by RFK Jr. Who has
(12:04):
some very strong beliefs, anti mainstream, anti science beliefs that
almost like the more hardcore, more trump version of what
Winner's been doing for a long time. And she doesn't
really dispute that she talks about liking raw milk, that
people have lost faith in institutions.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
But that's all true, right, He's one hundred percent right,
And like there are lots that we've discussed this before
on the show, there are lots and lots of women
who believe in traditional medicine and supplementary medicine and alternative
modalities and all these things. And she is not wrong,
Like when she makes a point in here about raw
milk and she's like, there could be dangers to raw milk,
but are we expecting that the dairy industry are going
(12:42):
to be the ones who are gonna spearhead that she's right?
Like this is why people have lost trust in institutions.
The thing is about this is if you listen to
this show, you know that I have a big soft
spot for Gwyneth And it's not because I love her.
I just find her fascinating. And this interview articulated why.
Because if you're a woman, if you're a gen X woman,
(13:04):
she has been around for a very long time. And
one of my Roman empires is that I think about
her ears all the time, right, Like there was the
dating Brad pitt eras, there was the smoking ciggies with
Winona Ryder. She was a skinny girl. She was the
first person I ever heard talk about having a macrobiotic
diet and everyone's like, what's that? And then everyone was doing.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
She was out when everyone else was running.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Then she had her era when she moved to London
and became a housewife and started blogging about bread and
then she was in Marvel and like fix you by
coldplayers about her, like she is a person in the
culture who looms very large, and if you are a
woman in the culture who looms large, you are always
going to attract an enormous amount of shit. And I'm
(13:46):
not saying for a minute that she doesn't deserve some
of that, because what she's trying to sell everybody is
unquestionably a very very privileged, pretty white lady version of aspiration.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
She's the original influence.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
She is in many ways, but I think there's also
a lot to be respected there. I admire the fact
that she's never run away from it all, like the
shit that she has copped over the years, and the
abuse and the round mocking, She's turned a lot of
it to her advantage, which I kind of admire. Also,
she gives a good interview. She's usually quite honest. Like
(14:20):
so Michelle Rue is in her house in Montecito, and
who wouldn't want to go to Gwyneth Pultro's house in
Montecito describes immediately what she's wearing, a Gray's cardigan, white
wide leg jeans and her shiling like clocks. And the
first thing you do is you go, oh, I've got.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
White, white leg jeans.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, every woman in the world is deciding whether she
has any of those things. Then they were the journalist
describes what kind of milk she puts in her coffee,
because everybody wants to know what kind of milk Gwyneth
Paltrow puts in a coffee, either because they want to
copy her or they want to take.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
The piss out of her for it.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
So there's a level of fascination that I just love
to lean into.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
I read another headline that referred to the slight Gwyneth
Paltrow made against Blake Lively in this Yeah, in this profile,
that's that's an I read the entire profile. Couldn't find
the slight. This is where they've tried to up a
bit of tension on the discussion of intimacy coordinators, which
is big in Hollywood at the moment because in the
(15:17):
Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni lawsuit.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Since Me Too, they've been intimacy couaday.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yes, it is, but it's the geist because Lively said
we didn't have one and we should have had one,
and everyone has one.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
And they choreographed sex scenes and.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Gwyneth Paltrow in talking about her new film, which is
excuse my French, but Hollywayen Writ's Wet Dream, which is
Gwyneth Paltrow with a very young Timothy Schallamey. She says
they were offered an intimacy coordinator, and she basically went,
what the hell this is interrupting my process? And I
read that and went, oh, yeah, well power to you.
(15:52):
I like the idea that you're offered it, but I
don't think that it's mandatory that you use it. If
you feel like it's consensual and comfortable and you know
what your job is. But she has been roundly criticized
even since last morning.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
It did come across, and of course her process is
a process, but it did come across a little bit
like you're a pussy if you need one.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I don't think so. Because then she had a line
clarifying it about being someone who was maybe just entering
the industry or being a little bit younger. It's interesting
to consider whether her and Timothy sit together and decide
whether you have an intimacy coord They did.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
She said, we talked about it. She is funny about that,
because Okay, first of all, why is she doing this profile? Yep,
we should cover that off. The reason is, there's two reasons.
The first is she's starting acting again. I think it's
two reasons. I mean her. Brad Falchuk gives a quote
and says, Gwyneth is a supermum with absolutely no irony.
Gwyneth is a supermam. Her mum's stuff and this is
(16:48):
very and she loved so much. She was so fulfilled
when the kids were growing up, and she didn't want
to travel and she wanted to be at home with them,
which is fair enough. But now that they've left, she's
feeling herself again. She's exploring. She's a free bird. She's
getting back to acting. So after fifteen years, she's done
a couple of little things, but she's getting back to acting.
In her first leading role after that is this movie
(17:09):
where you won't believe this. She plays an older woman
having an affair with the younger man. He's a ping
pong player and he's Timothy Chalamey, and she's quite funny.
She says, look, I'm one hundred and nine and you're fourteen. Okay,
I know she's quite funny. And when photos of them
on the set appeared a few months ago, people speculated
that she was playing his mother. And that's interesting too
(17:30):
because the interviewer also says, unlike a lot of her
contemporaries in Hollywood, she has not filled her lips or
her lines on her face. And that's true when you
see her. She's a spokesperson for a type of botox,
but she natural. Yeah, she's not shy about the fact
that she does tweatments, but she does not look overfilled
(17:51):
like her contemporaries. Right. So the first reason is to
announce her return to acting, but I think that was
more just a hook. The real reason she's done it
is because she's been trying to sell group for quite
a while and all the bad publicity around them right
sizing and having to sack people. And she also did
a diffusion line called Good Clean Goop in Target that
was a disaster, and there was a lot of negative
(18:14):
press about her business. So she really needed to re
establish that her business was actually successful. And I also
think she's working probably because she's a free bird, but
I also got the sense probably needs a bit of
revenue into the company there is that's fine, So that's
why she's doing the.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Time that she sounds the most cranky because, as I said, before.
She's weathered a lot of that criticism, and she always
says that's what you get when you're a trailblazer and
blah blah. But there is a bit where she kind
of says, but when it affects your bottom line, it's
not funny anymore, which kind of makes it sound like
that some of that criticism really has been affecting the
bottom line.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Oh, I would have been, because it's very bad for brand,
and there would have been investors. I think the smartest
thing to do if she wants to sell the company
is to a point of CEO that's not her well.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Absolutely, because she talks in this and I was thinking about,
you may because she talks about I'm the kind of
CEO who or the journalist says, likes to be on slack,
likes to be involved, but I don't like Excel spreadsheets.
And I was like, I've heard this story. My smart
friend Mia went, you know what, Yeah, the CEO does.
There's a lot that's very mid about this interview, right, Gwinneth,
if you ever feel like coming on, because she's all
(19:18):
about moving into her next phase. I'm in raging Perry menopause.
I'm doing something new, and that's what all women this
age are like. It's like hilarious how she is the
most rarefied and the most basic at.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
The same time.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And she's also following in the footsteps, she says of
a Cameron Diaz.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Except you're just basic. But I haven't gone shilling clog.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
That she talks about how she's following in the footsteps
of a Cameron Diaz and a Demi Moore who did
step away for a little while and then came back
a going I've had so much more experience. I think
I'm actually going to be better at my craft.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And she was a very good actress, she actually and
so there'll be high stakes Christmas Day everybody. By the way,
the movie that's a long wait out loud as in
a moment, how a feel good family remake has become
a cultural hot potato. We are talking about snow White.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
This was my father's kingdom, a place of fairness, but
the queen changed everything.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Take him away, your majesty, What did you.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Say The people need some kindness in a I really
don't remember you being this opinion needed, Let's make a
live action snow White must have seemed like a no brainer.
For Disney back in twenty and sixty whatever could go wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I know when the film.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That's being released here tomorrow was conceived. After all, there
had already been a live action Cinderella, a live action
Beauty and the Beast, a live action Little Mermaid, a
live action Lionking, and realize, live action mean it means
not a cartoon, so real life princesses. They would have
thought it even more fun than cartoon ones. They can
go out there and wear red carpet dresses and do
(21:03):
interviews and walk and talk.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The peceptis, Oh, how the world.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Can spire to prove them wrong? Very quick rundown. If
you've been seeing headlines around about snow white and most
controversial ever, Da da da da da, I'm gonna give
you a quick rundown of the controversies so that you
know plural plural definitely.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
So.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
First of all, movie production was meant to start in
twenty nineteen. It was delayed by COVID very understandably, but
the casting finally gets announced in twenty twenty one and
immediately starts fires in some corners.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Of the internet.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Rachel Zegler, you might know her from West Side Story.
She's an amazing singer. She's a teeny tiny little actress,
really good actress was cast in the lead. The thing
is snow White, which let's remember the cartoon version was
made in nineteen thirty seven. Snow White is the fairest
of them all, with skin as white as snow. It's
literally where she got her name. And Zegler, who does
(21:57):
look a lot like a Disney princess, to be honest,
is of Colombian descent. So that was the start of
the Disney's Gone woke drums, right.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So there was some pushback around that time, wasn't there
about oh, why have they gone woke? Why have they cast?
And there was a similar pushback around when they cast
Hallie Bailey as the Little Mermaid, and she is an
actress of color as well, and there was a lot
of pushback about our Disney so wake when they're just
trying to do you.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Want cartoon princesses to look like the cartoon princesses, is
what people say. Then Peter Dinklich, who's probably the most
high profile actor of short stature in the world thanks
to Game of Thrones among other things, publicly questioned the
whole premise of bringing back a movie about seven dwarves.
This is him speaking about that on Mark Maron's podcast.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
This is what he says, Well, you know, it's really
progressive to cast literally no offense to anything. But I
was little taken back by the they're very proud to
cast a Latino actress as snow white. Yeah, but you're
still telling the story seven dwarfs. Sure take a step
(23:12):
back and look at what you're doing there. Yeah, you know,
I think it makes no sense to me, So what
would be You're progressive in one way and then but
you're still making that fucking backward oh story about seven
dwarves living in a cave. To get what the fuck
are you doing?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Man?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
You know?
Speaker 6 (23:30):
Have I have I done nothing to advance the cause
from my soapbox? I guess I'm not loud enough. I
don't know what. I don't know what studio that is,
but it was. They were so proud of that, and
all love and respect to that, to the actress and
to the people who thought they were doing the right thing.
But I'm just like, you don't what.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Are you doing?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The seven Dwarfs in the final film and now cgi
magical creatures who are still called sneezy and dopey, and
they look just like really the Seven Dwarfs.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
They're not referred to as dwarfs.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
No, and Disney said they did that to avoid in
quotes reinforcing stereotypes.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
So I heard that. Then some act with dwarfism pushed
back on Peter Dinklige and said, hey, there's not a
lot of roles for us in Hollywood. Glad that you've
got all of them. That's seven roles that we could
have got that now aren't available to us because you've
scared everybody off.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I think that the choice was unpopular in some circles
to then do the CGI, because then they're voiced by people,
but the people who are voicing it are not necessarily
people of small stature, so that can be seen as ablest.
I think they were between a rock and a hard
place with that decision. It was a really, really hard one.
But when ableism is entrenched in the actual fabric of
(24:45):
the story, that's something you're gonna have to deal with
head on.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So that was another one, yeah, of the controversies.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Then I haven't even started making a movie again.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Then a conflict erupted in the Middle East. Nothing to
do with a cute fairy tale movie. You might imagine
wrong because the evil queen in this movie is being
played by wonder woman Galgadot, who famously served in the
Israeli Defense Force. Her coastar Zegler, publicly declared her sympathy
for Palestine on social media. So now the two leads
(25:17):
are on opposite sides of the most divisive conflict on
the plan.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
And you've got Getot speaking publicly. Yeah, they're both quite
active on social media. Yeah they are. And it's probably
important to clarify to that military service in Israel is
mandatory for almost all people. But she's speaking really openly
about free the hostages.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
And she made public speeches, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Exactly, And imagine Disney at this point. I know then
are their agents.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Then Zekler made a comment about how the original plotline
about the handsome prince who awakes snow white with a
kiss was a bit off, and suggested that she was
involved in an update. This is what she said.
Speaker 5 (25:54):
The original cartoon came out in nineteen thirty seven, and
very evidently so there is a big focus on her
love story.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
With a guy who literally stalks her.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
Weird, weird, so we didn't do that this time.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So no prince or a different kind of prince.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
We have a different approach to what I'm sure a
lot of people will assume is a love story just
because like we cast a guy in the movie and
jaw burna. It's really not about the love story at all,
which is really really wonderful, and whether or not she
finds love along the way is anybody's guess until twenty
twenty four. It's an inner journey that she goes on
to find her true self and she meets a lot
of people along the way that make the journey really incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
That really pissed off a lot of the Disney's Gone
Woke gang. We didn't like it.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Disney fans love a love story.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Like what she said, It's almost like that is what
every actress who plays a Disney princess in modern times
has to contend with the idea that, oh, but isn't
it all just about a handsome prince comes along? And
so I feel that fairytales have evolved, or the portrayal
of them have evolved, and they should evolve.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Right, Yeah, But there's a dance to be done. There
is a dance with any sort of remake where what
you're trying to do is capture the audience who loves
the original and find a new audience in the modern moment.
So imagine if with Bridget Joanes rene Zelwega just came
out and trashed the original and was like, yeah, that
was really fat, phobic and regressive, she would have lost
a portion of the audience. So I think that there
(27:18):
is a real careful dance of just like I respect
the other. There are a few updates that we've You're right.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think one of the things that you have to
bear in mind all the time, because we've got one
more of these controversies, is that Zegler is twenty three. Yeah, okay.
Then when Trump won the twenty twenty four election, Zegler again,
she's twenty three. Not that I'm editorializing.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Posted about it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
She posted, may Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump
himself never no peace, fuck Donald Trump. Now the thing
is those people are now in charge, she may have noticed,
and they have been primed and ready to attack this
massive Disney property on all fronts. Now it's in cinemas,
(28:04):
but everything about the launch has been scaled back. No
non Disney approved lists were allowed at the La Red
carpet premiere, it was mostly influences. It was held in
the middle of the day. Now, Goodott and Zegler did
post together, then it's not like they're scrapping publicly or anything.
They did post together, and they did present at the
Oscars together. But now anytime that anywhere near each other all,
(28:25):
anyone's looking for the signs of tension. So generally Disney
is sending them off separately to do separate things. So
good Dot was sent to one of the Disney parks
to post with lots of little girls, and Zegler was
sent to Spain to sing to lots of little girls,
and the movie.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Was taken away.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Let's remember, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Can you imagine the conversations with the publicists, and the
movie that cost half a billion US dollars all up
with production and promotion, is now projected to make a
tiny fraction of that the domestic box office, even though
the people who've actually seen it say it's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
What are we I have a few theories about what's
going on here. When you are an actor like Galga
Dot or Zegla, you have your own personal brand, and
personal brand is becoming increasingly important. And for Zeglar, that
brand is about feminism, it is about human rights, It
is about being outspoken and progressive.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
So is Galgatotts ironically, yes, yeah it is.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
It is, but Zegler has been in different ways. She's
been more outspoken on social and with the Trump comment,
what I think is difficult is when that brand comes
in conflict with a bigger brand. I remember us talking
about something years ago that was like a brand can't
exist within a brand, And I think this is the
issue with press tours, is that the point of a
(29:49):
press tour is that we are promoting Snow White the
Disney Show, where the ven diagram of Trump fans and
Disney fans there is overlap. Therefore, we do not upset
Trump supporters.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Well, you don't want to say you don't want to
upset anyone, No, exactly. And also, can't we just go
to our Disney film and just the news cycle behind us,
which is what everyone wants?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yet which you can. And lots of people are saying
that this movie will probably be successful anyway because and
as someone who's you know, my kids are older now,
but parents love a family movie. They will take their
kids to this regardless because they don't care about culture wars.
But you're so right that the comments by Ziegler in particular,
particularly the Trump ones, have given a lot of people
(30:34):
a reason not to go yes.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And I think that when the audience, like the Snow White,
we are launching a movie publicity meeting, in terms of
our talking points are not at all what the talking
points of the two lead actors would be. And I
think that this is where presstours are going wrong. I
also think the lead up is too long and people
say too much shit. You give people enough airtime and
(30:56):
it's like they've been talking about this for years, and
everything they say then reflects on the movie. The film
has also been canceled from the left and the right,
which is a terrific feat.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I guess it shows that it's balanced.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, it's polarized everyone from every walk of life, and
it has also come at a moment. I think that
this is probably the perfect storm of rolled back DEI
of a moment in American popular culture where racism is
rearing its ugly head again in quite an explicit way,
(31:33):
like it's always existed. But I think that to have
a snow White that's a person of color just touches
the buttons of people who feel like they have license
again to be outrageously racist.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Isn't it sad that inclusivity, which is such a great thing,
and all the little girls who can't be what they
can't see and such a positive thing I think for
the world, has been weaponized and called woke as if
it's an insult, as if it's a terrible thing. And
the word anti woke, which can sometimes b euphemism for
(32:10):
being cruel or racist or intolerant of others or I'm
thinking and unkind. That's become a badge that some people
like to wear. And I wanted to ask you, Jesse,
do you think you know once upon a time, Rene
Zellweger could walk a red carpet, Julia Roberts could walk
a red carpet, Cameron Diaz could walk a red carpet
and they would not be asked their opinion on cultural issues.
(32:31):
Do you think that's possible now, in the age of
social media, for anyone to do that?
Speaker 3 (32:37):
This is what I mean about brand as I was
thinking about sort of a Julia robertson notting Hill. We
don't know what she stood for don't stand for anything.
Don't she just was she stood for notting Hill. That
was the she.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Had Harry under Ams the one time has a big
deal an accident.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I think we're about to see that coming back. And
your point you just made me, which is absolutely spot
on about inclusive casting, has probably had its day for
a while, which is depressing as all hell, right, because
there's no question that Rachel's egglers looking great. There's snow white,
everybody is saying, and she looks a lot like her anyway.
But I think that we are about to see it
coming back because after the massive backlash on Hollywood stars
(33:13):
who were almost unilaterally supporting progressive causes and have had
no impact whatsoever on any of the election results or
any of those things, the intense risk on these movies,
which are so expensive to make, I think that we're
going to go back to a very ad nine like
don't ask me anything.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I also policy think that this is a very public
example of something that is happening within the arts, which
is a real division, especially with what's happening in the
Middle East, between these these two camps who are clashing
and feeling threatened and feeling undermined and This is the
thing about diversity, right. You can go, oh, we want
(33:52):
people to look different, but diversity also means that people
are going to show up with different opinions. And I
thought that, you know, seeing them at the Oscars standing there,
they've both behaved very of.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Course, to be clear, they have not like said anything
about each other or been you know, verbally or otherwise
unching on about any issues. It's all been projected on them.
It's really complicated, but I predict it will be a
big hit, if not in theaters and streaming, because family
movies are the bread and butter. Like Bluey I Think,
(34:22):
which obviously is an Australian property, is one of Disney
Plus's most successful properties.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Full Stop.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Parents want things to watch with their kids. They don't
care about all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a
giver as well as the recipient.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
There's a homeowner who has some feedback and they've been
in the news this week because their house was open
for inspection and they have a sign on the toilet
that has gone viral and it says, please don't use
this toilet. Thank you. People are apparently taking a break
from inspecting homes to use the toilet. Real estate agents
(35:04):
aren't happy. They've said people come to inspections and use
the toilet. I find it gross. A lot of the
time people that come to use the toilet aren't even
there to inspect the property. Oh my god, thought of that.
Busting to go to the loo when you're walking down
the street. Just pop into an open for inspection. People
don't do that. And this real estate agent that's quoted
in the article says it's like coming to our house
(35:25):
inspection and using the microwave to heat up food if
that food was pooh. I added that last.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
I can't believe have you had people do this.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
I've done it, not a pooh, but I've done wheeze
in it in an open people walking through.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I don't know what open inspectors you're going to, but
for me, there are three hundred people elbowing each other
out of the way.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
It is a it's got to be a quiet one.
It's going to be a quiet to be. It can't
be like a studio apartment.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
I would not and be like, I want to see
the shower.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
This has happened in my world. One of my children
did this. We were looking at an open house when
we were when we moved, and I'd lost one of
my children from because they had to come because who
was going to look after them? And I was like,
where have they gone? Where they're gone? Indeed, they were
in the bathroom. The door was not locked and they
were using it for a number two. Oh. I thought
that was mortifying enough until our producer Ruth told us
(36:23):
that that also happened to her when our kids were
a little except that that toilet was not even connected
to the plumbing.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Okay, so this used to be. I remember going and
looking at and remember display homes. I remembering looking when
I was a kid at at display homes with Mum,
and I definitely considered using one of those toilets. But
you look down and it's like concrete or some like.
It's not it's not plugged in at all. I don't
know how you rectify that situation.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
After the break, there's a surprising new beauty standard that's
crept in by Stealth, and no one has been talking
about until now.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers follow the
link in the show notes to get us in your
ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
to all our current.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
You released a bunch of venomous snakes today. You do
realize that you're fucking deranged.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
We need to talk about teeth. For weeks, viewers of
The White Lotus have been marveling at Amy lou Wood's teeth.
There's a photo on our instagram if you like to see.
If you've not been.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Watched bunny teeth.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
They're calling them.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Well, yes, Kerry Sackville is calling it bunny teeth for
the Sydney Morning Herald. But they are so unlike what
we normally see on television that they were actually acknowledged
on screen. Her friend Chloe remarked, I love your teeth
the character. Yes, yes, they are front and center. So
Kerry Sackville wrote that these bunny teeth give her hope.
She argues that quirky female faces are almost exclusively on
(37:59):
character actors who play supporting roles. If we ever see them,
they're supporting roles. But what's exciting is that not only
is would a lead, but she's a trophy girlfriend of
an old demand. She is positioned as desirable and attractive.
Vanity Fair called her teeth not just charming but inspiring,
and would herself have spoken about how her teeth were
(38:19):
a source of great insecurity. Growing up, she was bullied
for them. She didn't believe she'd ever be able to
work in television, and now she finds her smile empowering
and rebellious, although she says she'll never be able to
play an American. She said Americans do not have teeth
like hers. Holly, do you think that's true?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
One hundred percent truth. Amy is from where I'm from. Friend,
She is from Stockport, which is very close to Manchester,
so she is obviously a legend of all kinds. Yeah,
she's gorgeous. See that's one of the things we weren't
saying about this, is like she's got unusual teeth, but
she's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, but it is one hundred cent
tru she couldn't play an American. You're probably not that
(38:58):
familiar with English TV, but when I was growing up
and you're watching, the biggest shows in Britain were the
soap operas EastEnders.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Watch Bill, there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Nobody has perfect white teeth, but there are no shows
on American television where people do not have perfect white teeth.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Do you know why that is?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Well, the stereotype is that British people have bad dental care.
It's not actually true. If you dig into the research,
they have quite good dental care.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
They have fluorid in the water.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
I think that some places do and some places don't.
But going to the dentist in Britain is subsidized for
kids and things like that. But there is just a
very different culture of everybody getting their teeth sorted out.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
So is it a marker of status? But even yeah,
rich people have nice teeth, but I've seen a lot
of posh people that actually don't.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
I know that would also be a mark. That would
also be a mark of rebellion, because there's also a
little well not rebellion. But you see, the thing is
I snorted when somebody said that her teeth were like,
her teeth are inspiring, Like it's ridiculous, the idea that
normal face with normal features and like, what's the word?
No one has intervened on those teeth, that's the only thing, right,
(40:04):
So teeth that have not had intervention are like brave
and inspiring gandicity to me, I.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Think We've got to acknowledge though, that it is subversive
because her teeth my teeth without years of work. And
I got probably two years of dental work, and I
remember my mum sitting with the orthodontist and trying to
untangle what was cosmetic and what was truly necessary, which
has become increasingly blurry.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Because also we have to be clear, dental work is
so expensive. It is a marker of status, because yeah,
not everybody has like ten thousand dollars to be thrown
away on their kids' teeth just so that they have
the teeth that everyone has on TV.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yes, but I think that the orthodontic thing, like yes,
as that. But there's also the reason that people get braces,
and the reason that people get work done is often
too for like health reasons, like for jaw pain and
for being able to clean it. Like I still have
crowding that makes flossing and everything difficult. But to see
(41:02):
what my teeth looked like and I got dental it'd
probably started when I was about twelve, and I did
the retainers and stuff. I remember being please self conscious
about the gap between my teeth as a kid. I
remember people would say to me, but Madonna has a gap,
and that was their way of making me feel better
about the fact that my teeth looked different. But I've
even felt it as an adult on television when you
(41:24):
look around and you go, I'm the only one without veneers,
and there's a look on television of the big.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
White twiglet teeth, tee teeth.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I think it's more prevalent in America, where you almost
can't even see that they're separate teeth. They're like a
big white thing over the top, and it is definitely
a marker of class. You see a lot of sort
of reality TV stars that the moment they can afford it,
they go and get one hundred percent smile transformed.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I think it's the new baseline, and I don't think
that's necessarily a good thing, but I think it's one
of those ones. I refer to it earlier as a
stealth beauty standard, because there are other things that are
more obvious, like lip filler, boob jobs, buming plants. Even
when everyone was wearing eyelash extensions and looked like they
had little awnings over their eyes, you can notice those
(42:12):
things more. But with teeth, it's only when you look
back at something. I was watching Muriel's Wedding again with
my kids a couple of years ago, and I was
so struck by Tony Collette and Rachel Griffiths and everyone
in that film. They had their own teeth, They had
regular teeth, and it was shocking compared to even them
(42:33):
compared to now. They didn't look terrible, but they just
looked so different. And teeth is one of those things
that I don't notice people's teeth unless they're really terrible
or missing. I was very self conscious about my teeth,
so I've got very big teeth. I stuck my thumb
till I was twelve. I had very buck teeth.
Speaker 5 (42:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I used to be called Bucky Beaver, and I always.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Assumed but Amy Lee was called Bucky Beaver too, except
to Manchester and.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Bookie Beaver Bookie Beava. I assumed that I would have
to have braces. A lot of my friends had braces.
I went to see orthodontist and he's like, no, You've
got something called a tongue thrust, which means that at
rest boring to any one. I'm riveted. At rest, my
tongue sat behind my teeth. Okay, instead of my body anyway,
(43:16):
I changed it and my teeth of the gap because
I said to biggap, and my teeth closed up. They
haven't got smaller, but I guess my face has got
biggert anyway. For a long time.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
You know what I'm gonna say. People think about themselves
too much, don't they? Yeah, people think about themselves a
little too A long time though.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
People thought I had had my teeth done, and people
still do. And some people when we were preparing for
this segment today, were like, oh, I just assumed that
you'd had your teeth white and or you'd had your
teeth done. And when I started Mum and me, there
was this commentary that was obsessed with my the fact
that I'd had my teeth done, and that I was
lying about it and claimed to know the dentist who
did it and all this stuff. I actually haven't had
my teeth done. I don't drink red wine, I don't
drink coffee, and I've fixed my tongue thrust.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Do you think though, firstly, teeth discoloration, which is even
just the wrong word because we don't want teeth to
be teeth colored anymore.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
But you know what is teeth tht.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, but it's teeth blinding blinding.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You go to look at the shades of white in
a dentist like, it's amazing. It's more than when you're
picking paint for your house.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Don't you think it's like an arms race? Though? I
think that the teeth, it's become the arms race of teeth.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yeah, teeth. What's interesting about it, though, is that it
is a beauty standard that my male friends, you know,
their insecurity is maybe their hairline and the color of
their teeth. Like it's the one thing I'll see men
do is go, do you use any teeth what like.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Their penis size product? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
But the other thing is that when you go to
the dentist, So I wonder if this has something to
do with it. The health or the dental check is
kind of confused with the cosmetic and the up selling
and the up selling. So you go there and you
sit in the chair and I'll go for a clean
and you know, to check if I've got any holes
or whatever. Often you'll see on the wall there's a
(44:55):
poster telling you to get especially around weddings. It's like
are you getting married?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Like, yeah, used to be make sure you have a
manicure the day before your wedding. Now it's like your
teeth program six months out. But I'm the opposite. I
went to my dentist two weeks ago and I tried
to convince him do I need my teeth whitened? This
is what I mean about an arms race, And I've
got really white teeth. And he's like, no, no, you don't.
And I'm like, should I use whitening toothpaste? He goes,
(45:21):
not really it or make your teeth sensitive? And I'm
like I was using whitening toothpaste and my teeth were sensitive.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
Yeah, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Don't you think it's part of the instagrammification of women's
faces that it's like everyone's got the same teeth, everyone's
got the same lips, everyone's got the same cheeks. You know,
whether it's on a red carpet, not a lot of
natural teeth on the oscars red carpet.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
I wonder what this signals. I wonder if it could
potentially signal a shift that we go if you have like, okay,
this I mean Amy lose teeth, Amy lose teeth. I
wonder if we look at it, and I'm looking at
that going Oh, but she's beautiful, but I love her
teeth looking like that when everything is homogeneous, if there's
this real appeal of someone who comes out, I remember
(46:02):
watching it recently with Kieran Knightley in Black Doves. Her
forehead moved and I went, oh, forads can move like
I won w If this subversion might signal a new trend.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I don't know. I'd like to think that, but I
think she's just the outlie that proves the rule, because
why else would Vanity Fair and all the media be
writing whole stories about the teeth of one actor on
White Lotus.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
A massive thank you out louders for listening to us
today and for being here as always, and to our
fabulous team for putting the show together. We're going to
be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
And if you are looking for something else to listen to.
On yesterday's subscriber episode, we sat down with our friend
Emily Vernham who joined us for a very special Ask
Us Anything. We talked about new dating apps. I mentioned
one on the show a while ago. We talked more
about that and also a new one that all my
friends are swearing by. The three questions that Emma says
you should definitely ask on a first day.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I was so shocked to yes first.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
Ah, me too. And also you might have seen the
story of the influencer who took a baby one bat
from its mother. Oh, we talk about that we didn't
have an opportunity to on the show, and we also
shared the TV and TV storylines and tropes that we
are so done with seeing on our screens. We will
pop a link in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Bye bye, out louders you still hear We've got a
little treat to check who the out louders at the
top of the leader board are that listened to right
at the end of the show. Here's a hot tip
we learnt about at the end of our planning meeting
when our CEO marched into the kitchen and said she's
got to run across the road to Woolies because the
(47:35):
new twenty dollars Anya hind Marsh bag. It's like a
carry bag, like the kind of bag you know, a
reusable kind of a bag. It's called the Universal Bag.
It's an echo friendly tote available in green and blue.
It has a ten year guarantee. I don't know why
you need a ten year guarantee on your bag, but
she's on a mission to encourage shoppers to ditch plastics.
(47:56):
She usually makes very expensive bags that are worth hundreds
of dollars. You can get it now from Woolies for
twenty dollars. And this is not an ad. This is
just a public service in normal.
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