February 12, 2025 • 40 mins
Team Mama Bear have come to the defence of a woman who burst into an Adelaide school classroom and threatened to kill her daughter’s bully. And that team is very much winning the in the court of public opinion. We discuss a complicated bullying story.
Plus, did you come from an “ask” family, or a “guess” family? How you answer will probably ruin Valentine’s Day for you and say a lot about the conflicts in your life.
And, revenge is so hot right now. It’s dancing on the stage at the Superbowl and it’s dripping from Taylor’s thigh… Welcome to the gloves-off era.
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- Read: This video of an Adelaide mum screaming at her daughter's bully has people cheering. But should it?
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- Read: Sam Kerr's verdict is in. But one question remains.
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CREDITS:
Hosts: Holly Wainwright, M
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
He as an askar.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How does this play out in your life? Jesse Ascar,
and I I'm such a guesser. Hello, and welcome to
Mamma Mia. Out loud, it's what women are actually talking
about on Wednesday, the twelfth of February.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm Polly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
On today's show, Team Mama Bear have come to the
defense of a woman who burst into an Adelaide school
classroom and threatened to kill her daughter's bully, and that
team is very much winning in the court of public opinion. Also,
did you come from an ask family or a guest family?
And why? The answer will probably ruin your Valentine's Day?
And revenge is so hot right now, it's dancing on
(01:06):
the stage at the Super Bowl and it's dripping from
Taylor's thigh. Welcome to the Gloves Off Era, but first,
Jesse Stein.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In case you missed it, Sam Kerr has been found
not guilty of racially aggravated harassment by a London Court.
So Kerr, who is the captain of the Matildas and
an international football star, was today found not guilty. Here's
what we know about what actually happened. So in twenty
twenty three, Kerr and her fiance Kirsty Mules, were on
(01:36):
their way home after celebrating Kerr's hat trick for Chelsea
the team.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
She hat trick, sorry, scoring three goals in one game.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh so she's good, but he scored in soccer even
I know that.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah, And then she was like I'm going to celebrate
fair And then Kerr appears to have vomited in the
taxi or out of the window on the way home,
and when the taxi driver demanded she pay for the cleaner,
and altercation ensued. So Kerr says they were then locked
in the taxi and she and her fiance feared that
they'd been kidnapped and reported that the cab driver was
(02:09):
driving erratically.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So he claims that he was taking them to the
police station.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, yes, exactly right, So he took them both to
a local police station.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But they were scared. They thought they were being kidnapped.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yes, And I think because there's kind of like the
Perspex thing between them. Sometimes you can't hear what's going on,
so he could have called the police and they maybe
didn't hear it. He took them to a local police station,
where police noticed a broken window and damage to the
plastic guard that's inside the taxi. Kerr and Mules claimed
the damage was due to their trying to escape because
(02:43):
they were scared. They kept referencing Sarah Everett, who was
a UK woman who was killed. So they say they
were really scared in that in that instance.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I think she was killed by a police officer.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, yes, So they were saying that that's sort of
where their fear was coming from. And here's the exchange
between Kerr and the officers.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you stay on the phone long enough to even
speak someone? That's the thing, okay, but they wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Though they wouldn't do that, You should have spoken to the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Honestly, you have stupid and white Okay. So I'm going
over this. This is the world problem. Wait on the call,
Wait on the call.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Wait all right, I'll go over at the moment.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Then at three seventeen, you're under rest of criminal damage
because there's an allegation that you've smashed that taxi window.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
You're also under rest for racially aggravated public order for
the comments that you've said.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
The reason So look, it might be worth noting that
when the police officer says they wouldn't have hung up,
they actually did. In the court they were able to
look at what happened, and the police that her called
were meant to be calling her back. So what she
was saying was true.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I can't believe this ever went to court.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yes, absolutely, because last year when this broke, people were horrified.
They just heard that this was racially aggravated harassment. And
we went, this is a captain of the Matildas and
we were surprised because Sam Kerr has some Indian heritage,
and so we went what she said, and then pretty
soon after it came out that she'd called an officer
effing stupid and white. And then this other conversation popped up,
(04:25):
which is I didn't think that it was racist to
call someone white. I thought that racism was about power.
But in the courts, apparently it doesn't discriminate. You can
be racist towards, you know, people of any ancestry. That's
what the law says. She has since apologized for expressing
herself poorly. But as it stands, the case is over.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It's ridiculous. I'm just calling it. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And why do you think this did go to court, Holly,
Because a lot of people are going how did this
get this farst?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It seemed to be going to court because one particular
officer who was in that room clearly pushed it very hard.
So initially prosecutors thought that this insult had called no
alarm or distress as they call it, and refused to
take the case to trial. This is why it's taking
so right. But then it was pushed very hard by
the officer involved for whatever reasons can't speculate, but it
(05:16):
resulted in an eight day trial that has cost UK
taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds to put on to
get us to this place where Sam Kerr, who I'm
sure and she said so herself, is not proud of
what happened that night and it kind of has put
a smear on her reputation that wasn't there before. Is
now every time her name's mentioned, this case will be
(05:37):
mentioned alongside it. And it just seems ridiculous when you
think about the cases that don't make it to trial.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, I don't know if it will actually, because I
just think most people, once they learned what the case
was about, sort of shrugged and moved on.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You think that. But we have an out louder who
lives in the UK, and she said she was shocked
by the coverage and I was even I went on
Twitter and had a look around. People are furious. There
is a subcus people who are furious and they're like, oh,
so you can't be racist against white people, Like it's
really stirred up a lot of.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, it's just a you know how scandal just sticks
every time her name's mentioned. It's just that thing. I
wasn't there that court case, wasn't there with that racism
thing around her, and it just muddies her reputation. Every
morning this week, I've woken up with bluebirds singing and
reached for my drug of choice and look for the
little treat that I know will brighten my day. Meghan
(06:30):
Duchess of absent jam and Flowery Ice Cubes is back
on Instagram and now she's posting stories.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Tell me about the stories. I only followed her last
night because I realized it in order for our friendship
to continue. I needed to follow mates.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So exciting to me to open my phone and see
Meghan with the little like red ring around it.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
There's something new she's posting. She like a proper influence.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It's like a proper influencer. Meghan and that guy she's
married to. They're at the Invictus Games in Canada right
and she's been documenting the whole thing, which is a
big departure because for a long time, ever since the
ring went on the finger, really, Meghan has not been
allowed to be on social media, and she's threatened to
come back several times. Remember when was that infamous New
York magazine profile where she said, guess what, I'm coming
(07:13):
back to Instagram.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
On the second she and Harry chose to remove themselves,
and they did so in a pretty flouncy way where
they said, we think social media is a terrible thing.
We are leaving. We are just going to give access
to these journalists that we choose, which is absolutely their prerogative.
They're not the first and they won't be the last
people to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's what I'm saying. It's a big departure.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, So I'm glad it's not that she wasn't allowed to.
They just made that decision. They haven't been.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
One of the row five years, but while she was royal,
she wasn't allowed to.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I understand that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But she's also everyone who's deleted Instagram for a week
on back on.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
But my view on why she's decided to obviously there's
the very pragmatic fact that in two weeks time her
new TV show with Love Megan can't wait, it's coming
out and she needs to build promo. Also, the Invictors Games,
big big pillar for them, great cause, awesome event that
Harry invented created. It's kind of like the Olympics, but
for veterans, injured veterans, and it goes around the world,
(08:10):
and so it's great. But also I think she's gonna
let them era. I think she's understood she's never gonna
win the war of what people are going to say
about her, and so she just needs to do what
she wants to do. So she came back posted about
getting Billie Eilist T shirts for someone who lost everything
in the fire. Everyone went, that's ridiculous, how self serving?
And did she take it down, did she go quiet?
(08:31):
Did she decide not to post anymore. No, she said,
I'm pushing on.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah. I actually think this is a really smart move
strategically because I think one of the problems with people
who don't speak much in the public eye or who
you know, Jennifer Anderson had this problem before she got
on social media. You rely on people interpreting your actions
and your words, and she's had a few really bad profiles,
a couple that she participated in, some that were right
(08:56):
around and if you don't have an outlet to put
forward your own story in a way that's a lot
more low key than giving an interview, making a television program,
making an announcement. I think this is really smart because
I think it sort of acclimatizes people and it's a
bit of a flood the zone. It's like, if there's
just stories of Megan every day, she stops becoming this
(09:18):
figure and starts to become more human.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah. Look, I think whatever she posts is just going
to be interpreted with the most incredible amount of bad faith.
I think we saw that with the you know, silly
Billy Eilish video and the way that people perceived that.
But what I'm finding really funny when I went on
last night and I see her posting. Is that I've
become so used to the Instagram behavior of if you're
(09:41):
posting your holding the phone. But she's got a as
clearly an assistant or something, and so she appears in
all of it, which feels very retro like. It does
feel like she dipped out of Instagram. And then, as
you've said before me as she's come back with twenty fifteen, fine, because.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Let's be honest, we want to see her.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that it's still it's about the
perception of her versus What I like about social is
that it's the person's window into the world world, and
even if that cameras turned back on themselves, it's sort
of in their control. So look, she is a bit
twenty fifteen still, but sure she'll, you know, catch up.
Last week at a strawt, mother entered an Adelaide classroom
(10:23):
to confront the year eight student that she believes to
be her daughter's bully. She screamed, she swore, and she
threatened to slit the throat of the teenager in front
of other students and their teacher, who tried to remove
her from the classroom. Now, the incident was captured on
video by one of those students who witnessed it, and
it went viral after being obtained by seven YEWS. Here's
(10:45):
a little bit of that video. Yeah, it's very hard
(11:09):
to listen to that. It was hard to watch it,
but I found myself really sympathizing with that woman. I
just want to get a little bit of her perspective,
because she was approached afterwards by Channel seven to comment
on her behavior, and she acknowledged that it had crossed
the line, but explained that it was a breaking point.
Here is what she said.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
I don't want my daughter to be another statistic. I
don't want to have to bury my child. She was crying.
She was devastated that this child had told her to
go and hang herself. I did everything in my power
as a parent, and so did my husband to make
sure that our daughter was safe. I have stayed at
time and time again to the school. We are begging,
We begged for help, we begged. What everybody has seen
(11:52):
of me is not who I am as a mother
or as a person.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I thought it was really important to play both of
those because if you just saw the first one, you
might take a certain view and it would be easy too,
that she was unhinged, that she was crazy, that she
might have been a particular type of perer. When you
hear her the second time, you can hear the fear,
the anguish, the distress in her voice. Now, the public
response has been mixed. Some, including the South Australian premiere
(12:20):
Pete Malinowskis, have condemned the mother and South Australian Police
are now investigating the incident, but others have come out
in support with sentiment kind of along the lines of
I'd rather attend court than my child's funeral. Now, this
is obviously a hugely emotional issue and one that so
many people will relate to in different ways as parents
(12:40):
and as people who were bullied as kids, and also
as educators who are being expected to deal with these
kinds of issues around bullying all the time thanks to
technology which has really changed things and the fact that
bullying is no longer just something that happens in and
around school.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, so, you know, my whole family are teachers, and
my mum has got to work on a Monday and
had a parent show up with multiple pages printed out
of a conversation that occurred over the weekend between their
child and a bully and said, deal with that. And teachers,
you know, they then have to go and teach their class,
(13:18):
and they also have classes with thirty kids in them.
And I think what I'm finding really difficult watching this
conversation unfold is that a lot of the sentiment is
schools need to do something, governments need to do something,
teachers need to do something, as though they're not already,
and that simply isn't true. Schools have never had more
(13:40):
of a focus on student welfare, on pastoral care, on
having strategies, of having school counselors, of having psychologists, of
having people from headspace or people come in and speak
to them. Like to suggest that schools aren't trying, I
think is totally incorrect.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Can you appreciate that mother's anguish that the schools have
perhaps done everything they can and she said, this has
been happening for over a year, her daughter is self harming.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Relate, Yeah, And hearing the pain in her voice, I
felt empathy. I think that there is an instinct to
protect that I do empathize with. I don't accept the
binary that you have two choices. One is to go
into the classroom, and the other is to attend your
child's funeral. I think drawing a straight line between bullying
(14:29):
and ending someone's life is really dangerous and incorrect. Bullying
is rampant. Of course, it impacts mental health, and there
have been cases in Australia of kids who have died
after really awful bullying. That is totally a thing, But
when someone takes their life, there are multiple, multiple factors
that come at play, and to suggest that.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That puts it's every parent's fear, that's what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
But it makes parents more scared to suggest that if
your child is being bullied at home, then careful because
this is how it's going to end, and not a
most it won't.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think that's why most parents can empathize with her
is because we are all parenting from a place of
fear of worst case scenario looming in our heads. Because
it's reported often right, we hear these terrible stories and
if you have teenagers, the things they say to each
other on the internet are quite shocking, like they really
(15:24):
really are. And this is a really complicated issue, as
you've said, Jesse, because the thing that I'm a little
of course I understand and empathize with this woman. I
really do Team Mama Bear, as they're calling themselves, who
is saying, I totally get it. I back her. It's
absolutely understandable in your bones if you're a parent. I
remember the first time I felt it. I was in
(15:44):
a playground. My daughter would have been eighteen months and
a little kid the same age just came over and
pushed her over. Now, I remember feeling for the first
time that, like rush of protector, I wanted to push
that kid over. I wanted to push them on the floor,
and I had to stop myself from doing it because
I am an adult who has to learn that you
don't meet violence with violence, and that that's not gonna help. Right. So,
(16:06):
although I entirely understand that woman's end life less distress
and frustration, I think that Team Mama Bear leads us
to a dangerous place. It leads us to a place
where it's fine to burst into a classroom and threaten
violent murder in front of a whole room full of
children and a teacher who has to somehow deal with
that and then regroup afterwards. It leads us to parents
(16:28):
who fight on the sidelines at sport. It leads us
to all kinds of places. So although I have a
lot of empathy for her, and I've seen similar situations
play out in my life, I think it's dangerous to
valorize it.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I really it has become more commonplace too, having parents
burst into the playground.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It's happened at the school that a friend of mine's
child attends, and a mother came in and actually pushed
over another child who she accused of bullying her child.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And often it's really complicated because and I'm not talking
about this instance, which sounds horrendous, but often when you
trace back, well, what did you say to them? And
how's this escalated? And are you completely like it's not
offen that black and white? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it
absolutely is. And as parents, we are programmed obviously to
(17:17):
believe and empathize and support our kids, and that's our job, right,
But it's often much more complicated, and that's often what
schools and teachers have to try it on.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, and then schools and teachers and not only protecting
students against other students, but students against parents. Like that's
a total power imbalance too, that just isn't fir feah.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And different kids have different levels of resilience at different
times in their life, depending on what's going on and
for them, you know, I have another friend who discovered
that her child was involved in something and people were
sending their messages and among them were like, kill yourself,
kill yourself. And she was so shocked and her child
(17:59):
was like, Oh no, that's just what people say, Like,
that's just what people says.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Frendous all this to say, you know, there's a discussion
being going on in the Facebook out loud as group
about this, and there are some absolutely heartbreaking stories about
bullying and the results of bullying and having to take
kids out of school and the mental health implications. And
then there are also stories in there from parents whose
kids have been accused of bullying and what's that's done. So,
like almost everything, it's a really complicated issue. And I
(18:27):
am a little bit worried about celebrating this woman as
a I.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Don't think you need to celebrate her as a hero,
but you can still say I can empathize with you.
She's not celebrating herself as a hero. She's saying she
sounds proud of what I did.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Stress She's like, you know what I think, wish.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I hadn't had to do that, and I'm not proud.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Of me because that leads and valorizing that video, putting
her to the side is the response that I think
has made a few people scared because teachers are bracing
themselves going on next week? Is it just going to
be parent on parents shout out to teachers. That's total anarchy.
But I looked at this and went, what should she
have done? So she did try the school, and I
think that there's a question there about you know, I
(19:06):
saw a video and it was a woman going the
government needs to do more, All the schools need to
do more.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
There are exact there's comprehensive laws around bullying, combining federal
and state laws with school based policies and interventions. But
as Holly said, a lot of this stuff is not
black and white, like if you punch another kid or
if you steal something that is pretty cut and dry,
but bullying, there are false accusations, there's context.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
In now chats that disappear.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, exactly, there's a burden of proof all of these things.
There's stuff that happens.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Outside school ours challenging and I don't know if she
did this, she might have already done this. I think
she should have called the parents of the bully. I
reckon that that's the next step. That's the in between,
is that if you feel like the school isn't doing enough,
rather than approaching the bully, who I'm going to assume
has their own stuff going on, because that's horrendous, inexcusable behavior,
(19:56):
speaking to the parent.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, I think schools mostly discourage that, but I agree
that's probably better. And if this is an issue that's
prevalent in your life, we will put links in the
show notes to some support services.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
In a moment. The difference between asking and guessing and
why it's probably the reason you're fighting with whoever you're
fighting with right now. Picture this, friends, Your best friend
is planning you a birthday dinner. They ask you where
do you want to go? And you say, I don't
really mind, safe in the knowledge that your best friend,
(20:30):
who knows you, will remember that time that you recently
said I'd love to try that bite and sip place.
But you say you choose. Your friend though, thinks that
when you say you don't mind, you mean you don't mind,
So they choose a completely different restaurant that you went
to once and thought it was mid and you're sad
and a little bit heard about it. If this is you,
(20:52):
the likelihood is you grew up in a guess house
and they grew up in an ask house. Once you
understand this difference about askers and guessers, it's going to
make sense of a lot of things. Right Like that
time you thought you made a strong suggestion that that
junior at work should start wearing shoes to meetings, but
they just keep on turning up barefoot. You're probably a guesser,
(21:15):
and she probably thinks that if it was essential, you
would have asked her directly to put her fucking shoes on.
In ask culture, individuals are encouraged to openly request what
they want, regardless of how unreasonable it might seem. Sometimes
take care of their own needs and expect others to
take care of their needs, make requests even if there's
(21:36):
a high likelihood of refusal, and to expect direct answers
with yes meaning yes and no meaning no seems reasonables.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Like a child yes, marriage counselor.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Whereas guess culture, individuals avoid making requests unless they're fairly
certain of a positive response yes. There's an emphasis on
reading contextual cues and shared expectations, right, thinking, well, they're
going to get the vibe of what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I'm just going to drop some hints.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
People try to minimize who are a guesser, try to
minimize the risk of rejection or causing discomfort, and requests
are often made indirectly with the hope that others will
offer without being explicitly as.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I love this, okay, mind, he as an asker.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
How does this play out in your life? Jesse? He
is an asker and Oscar and I I am such
a guesser.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
This is okay?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yes, And I believe some of my children are askers,
some of them are guesses. I would say yes.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
So this is the central tension of my marriage, in
that I'm a guesser and Luca is an asker, and
I have to say to him I think some asks
are unreasonable, and he doesn't think there's any such thing
as an unreasonable ask because he thinks it's your job
to say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
No, yes, oh, yes. An example.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
So this isn't a lucer example. This is a friend
of mine. It isn't Luca. A friend of mine has
his mum helping with childcare and his mum shows up
and he says, while you're here, can you make my bed?
That to me is an unreasonable request that is loaded
with disrespect. He thinks it's on her to say no.
(23:25):
I also there was a really good example of that
about moving right at your moving house, an asker will
say to all their friends.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
An asker will do, put it up as an Instagram
story and say, can anyone help me this weekend? I'm
moving I need some help. I'm horrified by that. What
I would do is go mea, what are you doing
on Saturday? And then you might say, ah, I'm busy,
and I go great. I won't ask ma'am, and then
I'll go Holly, what are you up to this weekend?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Nolan, I'm moving house?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Mouse terrible, that's all shop, and then it's a whole conversation.
I'll probably ask Holly three questions between that, and I
might even wait for Holly to offer.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Definitely, because I am a sign, I don't think there's
a like, a better or worse in this.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I do guesses are better?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, No, I don't know, because I think guess is
a passive aggressive I think guesses are perpetually frustrated.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, and disappointed.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But also, and I am a guesser, definitely, I'm a guesser.
I am very much they'll get the vibe, right, yeah,
But the problem with that is lots of people don't
get the vibe. A lot of neurodiverse people are certainly
not going to get the vibe. They need to be
told and asked and had things spelled out leaderboards. Yes, request.
But also, like the thing about guesses, and again I
am one, is that we are a bit passive aggressive
(24:38):
because we might go I'm moving on Saturday, and then
nobody says anything, and then we're really offended when no
one helps us move, Whereas like the askers were like, well,
you didn't ask me, so I didn't know that you
wanted me to help you.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Do.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You know what's so annoying? Now I understand you a
bit better, Jesse, because I just assumed how long have
I known you? We are related? Yeah, And to me,
it's a sign of intimacy when people can ask you
things like I just assumed we would eventually get to
the spot where you'd be like, hey, can I drop
or over to your house?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
But still it makes me feel physically sick.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that's a sign of intimacy instead of just.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It's all about the how she grew up in Oh,
it's all about the family you're from and whether they
were askers or guesses in general, like most things in life.
But it's interesting to parents.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
What I know of your mother's your mother? Your mother?
I know. Well, they're very direct, but.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They're only directed in certain situations their opinions, do you
know what I mean, Like the directing opinions like those
pants aren't great, but they're not direct in asking for
things or advocating for themselves directly, like that is something they're.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Really bad in fact advocators.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
In fact, I watch it happen with my parents' old age,
and I wish they were more askers because they're not like,
well the doctor would tell me right if there was something, yes,
you know what I mean, they weren't asking.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'm very frustrating with even like say a hospital or
you're dealing with a service, and my thing is always
like I'm just this little person who's like I'm like
the mckernicle and called me back about when ready, and
Luca's very busy. If Luca's already on the phone going.
You said the car would be back today. Will it
be back today?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Oh? Wait to hit Perry. That will help you become
an asker. Do you know what's interesting is that askers
believe that it's on other people to say no to
their requests. Askers don't tend to like hearing no. I
know this because when one of my parents asked me
to do a thing which I thought was unreasonable that
involved their dog and I said no, they got very angry.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
See.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I think some askers are very comfortable with no. Like Luca.
He doesn't have an emotional response to the no. He
just thinks you advocate your clear. It's something I really
admire about him because it makes life a lot simpler.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
But he's the guy that sends people lists of what
he wants for his birthday. Yeah, and it is so helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
The thing with being a guesser and Valentine's Day, which
is on Friday, is a good example, is that we're like,
I don't care, I don't mind, don't do anything, and
then you don't do anything. And particularly if you're an
ex guess or are, the resentment around that can be
really real, which is why the woman who wrote the
article on Mom and Me as she said that she's
a guesser married to an asker and they had to
(27:18):
like sit down and unpack it, yeah, and like decode
it in bits, because what are you really.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Making people listening to this going everything makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
The issue with being married to and ask her if
you're a guesser is that you can look around at
your life sometimes and go, wait a minute, I didn't
make one of these calls. I didn't make one of
these decisions. We're going on this holiday and living in
this house and doing this on Saturday, and that's not
what I want. But you've never advocated for yourself. So
the big tension Luca and I had after Luna was
(27:48):
born was he would turn to me and go, I
need Luca time this afternoon between blah and blah. He
thought I would say no if I wasn't comfortable with it,
and I was horrified that you would even ask because
I would never ask. And eventually it was like, in
order for us to have an equal relationship, I had
to learn to ask.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You can decode if you know people well, so in
the instace it's of the birthday, dinner or whatever. My
friend Panny she says, what do you want to do?
And I go, let's see. Maybe She's like that's a no.
She just because I won't say though, But.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Maya does that to me too. She's like, you don't
want to do that, and I'm like, ah.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
It's just easy for you to say no. I'd hate that.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a
giver as well as the recipient.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I have a quick bit of feedback for people putting
beef fat on their face. That a thing I don't
want to. Don't make me.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Why would they be doing that?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Well, last week, Kate Langbrook thrust a jar of beef
fat or tallow into my hands in the Mum and
may kitchen and she said, you've got to use this.
You've just got to put this on your face. And
I said, I'm a vegetarian, and she said, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
She has lovely skins.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
She has beautiful skins. I sort of dismissed it as
being just a Kate wooy thing, and try I notice
that it's actually a new trend in skincare that's being
spread on social media by people who say it's rich
in vitamins and Apparently it mimics our skins, natural oils
or something, but dermatologists say, yes, it might moisturize, but
(29:18):
it can also trap bacteria, and it's very clogging, and
it can cause breakouts. But on the positive side, dogs
will love you and try to lick your face.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Apparently. I heard I was reading a review that said
the first time you put it on, you can't really
smell the beef, and then after a few days you're
like that, actually real stinks like that.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
My mat used to make me eat beef fat on
toast dripping. We call it is not the same thing.
Can we just take that jar and spread it on
my bread?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I guess you could. It's treated like it's in a
jar with a label. But skin experts suggests that you
should stick to scientifically prove an ingredients like squalene or
sunflower seed oil instead, or just do what I do
and use expensive chemicals and sometimes a needle filled with.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Poison after the break distracts leake text and passive aggressive dancing.
Why the biggest names in entertainment are proving that revenge
isn't just a dish best served cold, It's also served
with a grammy.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mere subscribers. Follow the link
of the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Id on dress for women, i'd on dress for men.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I've been dressing for.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Revert Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar, Serena Williams, Taylor Swift. All four
have harnessed what writer Rachel Richardson calls the secret source
of those that shape culture. Simply, they have enacted revenge.
We spoke on the show a few weeks ago about
a concept called micro pettiness, and the outluders jumped up
(31:02):
and down and went, this is my life. This is
all I do.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
They are small, barely perceptible examples of pettiness.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
It's mini revenge.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
She's like microvenge, micro Yes, exactly right, it's going. I
don't want you to see my revenge, but I know
I got it.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
This is the opposite to that. This is big macro pettiness,
Richardson writes. Kendrick Lamar rocked the Super Bowl halftime show
and won five Grammys for not like us because of
a feud. Beyonce was finally honored with the Album of
the Year Grammy for her country album Cowboy Carter, which
was inspired by a snub, and Taylor Swift went stratospheric
(31:37):
when she embraced vengeance the lesson have an OP and
be a next level hater. An OP is an opponent
or enemy that you set yourself up against. Perhaps the
biggest feud in pop culture right now is between one
Kendrick Lamar, the thirty seven year old American rapper who
performed at the Super Bowl halftime show, and Drake.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Wearing bootcut jeans, I might add, and now they're everywhere Drake,
who is a thirty eight year old Canadian rapper who's
in Australia, Holly not having a good way.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
You have one minute to explain to us.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Why.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
For one minute, it has fallen to me it's a
feud for the ages. Look, I'm not gonna get all
the nuances in this complicated feud for the ages, and
I'm certainly not gonna nail White explaining hip hop. But
my proximity to rap obsessed teens means this high level
research project has fallen to me here goes. Drake is
an unlikely outsider in the hip hop world, even though
(32:34):
he's one of its biggest stars. He's Canadian. He's become
a huge star for his allegedly good music and also
by not taking himself too seriously. He's extremely online. He's
happy to make himself a meme. He doesn't mind a
love song, and he's also happy to be all dough
eyed about women like Rihanna and Serena Williams. Back to
that in a moment. He also loves making diss tracks,
which are typical of the genre. A dis track slags
(32:56):
off another rapper, usually over basic stuff like who's got
more money, who's got a better house, who's faster with
the rhymes.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Etc.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Meanwhile, Kendrick Lamar is a very serious dude. He's from
Compton in LA and you don't get more heart of
hip hop than that. He'solytical and thoughtful and hard edged.
The man has won a Pulitzer Prize for his music.
For God's sake. He also until recently, did not do distracks.
Not his thing. He's on a higher plane until last year,
when the man got sick of being all Michelle Obama
(33:24):
about it and reached his limit because Drake just kept
going at him with the tracks, and one of the
things he said in one is that he knows that
Kendrick abused a former partner. He also used AI to
make a dis track about Lamar that used the voices
of Tupac and Snoop Dogg, legendary rappers. He just keeps
going and going going, so Kendrick goes, Okay, here we go.
And in May last year, he makes a distrack of
(33:46):
his own about Drake, only it's on steroids. It's called
not Like Us, and it accuses Drake of being a phony,
saying everyone hates him, and most famously accuses him of
being a pedophile. The cover artwork of this song is
a literal picture of Drake's actual house with sex offender
tags on it, and it has the clever, clever line
of this strikes a chord and it's probably minor. The
(34:08):
song is a dead set bang, which is a word
that upsets my children. Goes to number one, breaks all
streaming records, goes viral on TikTok, even wins Grammys, has
the whole industry singing and dancing to it. It's safe
to say that this has transcended Drake and Lamar at
this point, and it's also safe to say that although
Drake is suing Lamar's record company, which also happens to
be his own record company, Lamar won that disc battle
(34:30):
hands down. And then, lastly, the Serena Williams of it
all is that in the song Lamar says best not
speak on Serena, and Serena, who is also from Compton
where Kendrick is from, was briefly linked to Drake, and
let's just say he did love it when she was
more interested in her now husband than him, and in
one of her songs he sings side by Serena, your
(34:50):
husband's a groupie, which is ironic. Important side note, all
claims made by the rappers in this update a speculative,
unproven and almost certain alleged at this point.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
How did I do that? Was closer to two minutes,
but I was just going to let you play on
because I was riveted. I tried to do it faster,
but this a lot that's incredibly helpful. Do you know
the biggest exam sample of revenge that we're all living
through is Trump, because it's said that the reason he
decided to run for president was because he was dissed
(35:19):
by Obama at a White House correspondence dinner when he
was in the audience, and he was so humiliated that
he went going to run for president and bloody hell,
look where we are.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
That's so true. And the other example that I'm seeing
is Justin Baldoni dropping one hundred and sixty seven pages
of emails and texts as an active revenge.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And some people say her lawsuit is an active revenge, yeah,
against him.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So the thing that's interesting to me, and particularly about
this Lamar business, and you know, our friend Taylor Swift
has been in her career big on the revenge, is
that we used to be upset about it, you know,
and be like be the bigger person, rise above, but
not like us has become such a massive smash. They
say it's in all genres now, like kids are dancing
to it. Everybody's into it. And I've seen some analysis
(36:11):
that says it's a hateful song, like it's a brilliant song,
and that's you know, you can excuse a lot if
you've got a good beat, like blurredlines or whatever, but
it's a hateful song, and that America is feeling hateful,
and that's why it has been embraced.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
In own people are angry. I reckon that that.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Is not necessarily with Drake, just like with Shit.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, people broadly, I think are feeling a lot of anger,
and I think that's also why the bullying video went viral,
because watching someone seek vengeance is so cathartic, because everyone
has someone in their life that they would dream of
writing a disc track of yelling at them.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But then becomes the biggest thing in the world.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yes, and of course we are bound by these social
rules that we all have to play by, but when
something breaks through like this, I think it gives us
a sense of control as well. And Taylor doesn't she
have an album that she's re releasing this year Maya potentially.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Well, everybody's been waiting for REPTV, which is the Taylor's
version of her Reputation album, which was essentially a revenge album.
It's also a love album. It's one of her best albums,
but would you like me to talk about it was
about Kanye and Kim. But even in her most recent album,
which is Tortured Poets Department, there are a couple of
(37:28):
diss tracks and revenge tracks on that. There's The Smallest
Man Who Ever Lived, which is about Mattie Healy allegedly,
and then there's Thank You Amy, which is about Kim
Kardashian and basically how Kim ruining her life by releasing
those doctored voicemail messages and implying that Taylor was a
liar in an argument with her then husband Kanye. She
(37:49):
sort of spurred Taylor on to write one of the
greatest albums of her life and basically, look at where
Kanye is now and look at where Taylor is. So yeah,
that revenge worked.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
But that bit where we talked about this on the show.
But where the reason you can decode that because she
capitalized the letters Kim and the title. That's an act
of micropenniness for sure.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, she could have been a lot more obvious with it.
I think as well, hate can feel really energizing. Maybe
it's a form of resistance. Maybe it's like everyone's talking
about what you do when you're kind of just feeling
angry about the world. I think sometimes you just scream
at your neighbor.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
To quote me a Friedman, Is that what we're doing? Now?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
What are we doing? Now, gosh, there's been a lot
of screaming and a revenge in this episode.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Happily not between us. That's my yeah, that is all
we have time for. Out Louders, thank you so much
for listening to today's show, and of course to our
team for putting it together as they do every time.
We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
And before we go, we've watched Nicole Kidman's film Baby
Girl altogether. It was quite quite a moment. We've experienced
quite a few things in our little movie night.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
There's a viral video going around of people going to
clean the cinema after people have watched Baby Girl and
they go and wipe down the seats.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Oh that's We needed to unpack a lot of things,
so we thought we'd leave you today with a sneak
peak of that conversation, and for the full chat, check out.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
The link in the show notes, out Louders. Last night, Holly,
Jesse and I watched Paorn together with a milestone in
our relationship. It's now the next day we saw Baby
Girl together at the movies. I had a chop top
while we watched Nicole have orgasms. Jesse, what did you
have you.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
I had popcorn, but I also got a drink.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Holly, Holly, I.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Had popcorn too. I was literally eating popcorn watching Nicole
Kidman have orgasms in this very buzzy movie.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Of course, we're not here to talk about movie snacks.
We're here to talk about Baby Girl and give you
a very honest review of this film that you no
doubt have heard about. You may have seen it by now.
It starts Withicle Kidman, Bye.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and me a
subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want
to support us, subscribing to Mom and Mia is the
very best way to do so. There's a link in
the episode description.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Best book
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
He as an askar.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How does this play out in your life? Jesse Ascar,
and I I'm such a guesser. Hello, and welcome to
Mamma Mia. Out loud, it's what women are actually talking
about on Wednesday, the twelfth of February.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm Polly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
On today's show, Team Mama Bear have come to the
defense of a woman who burst into an Adelaide school
classroom and threatened to kill her daughter's bully, and that
team is very much winning in the court of public opinion. Also,
did you come from an ask family or a guest family?
And why? The answer will probably ruin your Valentine's Day?
And revenge is so hot right now, it's dancing on
(01:06):
the stage at the Super Bowl and it's dripping from
Taylor's thigh. Welcome to the Gloves Off Era, but first,
Jesse Stein.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
In case you missed it, Sam Kerr has been found
not guilty of racially aggravated harassment by a London Court.
So Kerr, who is the captain of the Matildas and
an international football star, was today found not guilty. Here's
what we know about what actually happened. So in twenty
twenty three, Kerr and her fiance Kirsty Mules, were on
(01:36):
their way home after celebrating Kerr's hat trick for Chelsea
the team.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
She hat trick, sorry, scoring three goals in one game.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh so she's good, but he scored in soccer even
I know that.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah, And then she was like I'm going to celebrate
fair And then Kerr appears to have vomited in the
taxi or out of the window on the way home,
and when the taxi driver demanded she pay for the cleaner,
and altercation ensued. So Kerr says they were then locked
in the taxi and she and her fiance feared that
they'd been kidnapped and reported that the cab driver was
(02:09):
driving erratically.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So he claims that he was taking them to the
police station.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yes, yes, exactly right, So he took them both to
a local police station.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But they were scared. They thought they were being kidnapped.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yes, And I think because there's kind of like the
Perspex thing between them. Sometimes you can't hear what's going on,
so he could have called the police and they maybe
didn't hear it. He took them to a local police station,
where police noticed a broken window and damage to the
plastic guard that's inside the taxi. Kerr and Mules claimed
the damage was due to their trying to escape because
(02:43):
they were scared. They kept referencing Sarah Everett, who was
a UK woman who was killed. So they say they
were really scared in that in that instance.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I think she was killed by a police officer.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, yes, So they were saying that that's sort of
where their fear was coming from. And here's the exchange
between Kerr and the officers.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you stay on the phone long enough to even
speak someone? That's the thing, okay, but they wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Though they wouldn't do that, You should have spoken to the.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Honestly, you have stupid and white Okay. So I'm going
over this. This is the world problem. Wait on the call,
Wait on the call.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Wait all right, I'll go over at the moment.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Then at three seventeen, you're under rest of criminal damage
because there's an allegation that you've smashed that taxi window.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
You're also under rest for racially aggravated public order for
the comments that you've said.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
The reason So look, it might be worth noting that
when the police officer says they wouldn't have hung up,
they actually did. In the court they were able to
look at what happened, and the police that her called
were meant to be calling her back. So what she
was saying was true.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I can't believe this ever went to court.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yes, absolutely, because last year when this broke, people were horrified.
They just heard that this was racially aggravated harassment. And
we went, this is a captain of the Matildas and
we were surprised because Sam Kerr has some Indian heritage,
and so we went what she said, and then pretty
soon after it came out that she'd called an officer
effing stupid and white. And then this other conversation popped up,
(04:25):
which is I didn't think that it was racist to
call someone white. I thought that racism was about power.
But in the courts, apparently it doesn't discriminate. You can
be racist towards, you know, people of any ancestry. That's
what the law says. She has since apologized for expressing
herself poorly. But as it stands, the case is over.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It's ridiculous. I'm just calling it. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And why do you think this did go to court, Holly,
Because a lot of people are going how did this
get this farst?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It seemed to be going to court because one particular
officer who was in that room clearly pushed it very hard.
So initially prosecutors thought that this insult had called no
alarm or distress as they call it, and refused to
take the case to trial. This is why it's taking
so right. But then it was pushed very hard by
the officer involved for whatever reasons can't speculate, but it
(05:16):
resulted in an eight day trial that has cost UK
taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds to put on to
get us to this place where Sam Kerr, who I'm
sure and she said so herself, is not proud of
what happened that night and it kind of has put
a smear on her reputation that wasn't there before. Is
now every time her name's mentioned, this case will be
(05:37):
mentioned alongside it. And it just seems ridiculous when you
think about the cases that don't make it to trial.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, I don't know if it will actually, because I
just think most people, once they learned what the case
was about, sort of shrugged and moved on.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You think that. But we have an out louder who
lives in the UK, and she said she was shocked
by the coverage and I was even I went on
Twitter and had a look around. People are furious. There
is a subcus people who are furious and they're like, oh,
so you can't be racist against white people, Like it's
really stirred up a lot of.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, it's just a you know how scandal just sticks
every time her name's mentioned. It's just that thing. I
wasn't there that court case, wasn't there with that racism
thing around her, and it just muddies her reputation. Every
morning this week, I've woken up with bluebirds singing and
reached for my drug of choice and look for the
little treat that I know will brighten my day. Meghan
(06:30):
Duchess of absent jam and Flowery Ice Cubes is back
on Instagram and now she's posting stories.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Tell me about the stories. I only followed her last
night because I realized it in order for our friendship
to continue. I needed to follow mates.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
So exciting to me to open my phone and see
Meghan with the little like red ring around it.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
There's something new she's posting. She like a proper influence.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It's like a proper influencer. Meghan and that guy she's
married to. They're at the Invictus Games in Canada right
and she's been documenting the whole thing, which is a
big departure because for a long time, ever since the
ring went on the finger, really, Meghan has not been
allowed to be on social media, and she's threatened to
come back several times. Remember when was that infamous New
York magazine profile where she said, guess what, I'm coming
(07:13):
back to Instagram.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
On the second she and Harry chose to remove themselves,
and they did so in a pretty flouncy way where
they said, we think social media is a terrible thing.
We are leaving. We are just going to give access
to these journalists that we choose, which is absolutely their prerogative.
They're not the first and they won't be the last
people to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
That's what I'm saying. It's a big departure.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, So I'm glad it's not that she wasn't allowed to.
They just made that decision. They haven't been.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
One of the row five years, but while she was royal,
she wasn't allowed to.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I understand that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But she's also everyone who's deleted Instagram for a week
on back on.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
But my view on why she's decided to obviously there's
the very pragmatic fact that in two weeks time her
new TV show with Love Megan can't wait, it's coming
out and she needs to build promo. Also, the Invictors Games,
big big pillar for them, great cause, awesome event that
Harry invented created. It's kind of like the Olympics, but
for veterans, injured veterans, and it goes around the world,
(08:10):
and so it's great. But also I think she's gonna
let them era. I think she's understood she's never gonna
win the war of what people are going to say
about her, and so she just needs to do what
she wants to do. So she came back posted about
getting Billie Eilist T shirts for someone who lost everything
in the fire. Everyone went, that's ridiculous, how self serving?
And did she take it down, did she go quiet?
(08:31):
Did she decide not to post anymore. No, she said,
I'm pushing on.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah. I actually think this is a really smart move
strategically because I think one of the problems with people
who don't speak much in the public eye or who
you know, Jennifer Anderson had this problem before she got
on social media. You rely on people interpreting your actions
and your words, and she's had a few really bad profiles,
a couple that she participated in, some that were right
(08:56):
around and if you don't have an outlet to put
forward your own story in a way that's a lot
more low key than giving an interview, making a television program,
making an announcement. I think this is really smart because
I think it sort of acclimatizes people and it's a
bit of a flood the zone. It's like, if there's
just stories of Megan every day, she stops becoming this
(09:18):
figure and starts to become more human.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Yeah. Look, I think whatever she posts is just going
to be interpreted with the most incredible amount of bad faith.
I think we saw that with the you know, silly
Billy Eilish video and the way that people perceived that.
But what I'm finding really funny when I went on
last night and I see her posting. Is that I've
become so used to the Instagram behavior of if you're
(09:41):
posting your holding the phone. But she's got a as
clearly an assistant or something, and so she appears in
all of it, which feels very retro like. It does
feel like she dipped out of Instagram. And then, as
you've said before me as she's come back with twenty fifteen, fine, because.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Let's be honest, we want to see her.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that it's still it's about the
perception of her versus What I like about social is
that it's the person's window into the world world, and
even if that cameras turned back on themselves, it's sort
of in their control. So look, she is a bit
twenty fifteen still, but sure she'll, you know, catch up.
Last week at a strawt, mother entered an Adelaide classroom
(10:23):
to confront the year eight student that she believes to
be her daughter's bully. She screamed, she swore, and she
threatened to slit the throat of the teenager in front
of other students and their teacher, who tried to remove
her from the classroom. Now, the incident was captured on
video by one of those students who witnessed it, and
it went viral after being obtained by seven YEWS. Here's
(10:45):
a little bit of that video. Yeah, it's very hard
(11:09):
to listen to that. It was hard to watch it,
but I found myself really sympathizing with that woman. I
just want to get a little bit of her perspective,
because she was approached afterwards by Channel seven to comment
on her behavior, and she acknowledged that it had crossed
the line, but explained that it was a breaking point.
Here is what she said.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
I don't want my daughter to be another statistic. I
don't want to have to bury my child. She was crying.
She was devastated that this child had told her to
go and hang herself. I did everything in my power
as a parent, and so did my husband to make
sure that our daughter was safe. I have stayed at
time and time again to the school. We are begging,
We begged for help, we begged. What everybody has seen
(11:52):
of me is not who I am as a mother
or as a person.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I thought it was really important to play both of
those because if you just saw the first one, you
might take a certain view and it would be easy too,
that she was unhinged, that she was crazy, that she
might have been a particular type of perer. When you
hear her the second time, you can hear the fear,
the anguish, the distress in her voice. Now, the public
response has been mixed. Some, including the South Australian premiere
(12:20):
Pete Malinowskis, have condemned the mother and South Australian Police
are now investigating the incident, but others have come out
in support with sentiment kind of along the lines of
I'd rather attend court than my child's funeral. Now, this
is obviously a hugely emotional issue and one that so
many people will relate to in different ways as parents
(12:40):
and as people who were bullied as kids, and also
as educators who are being expected to deal with these
kinds of issues around bullying all the time thanks to
technology which has really changed things and the fact that
bullying is no longer just something that happens in and
around school.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, so, you know, my whole family are teachers, and
my mum has got to work on a Monday and
had a parent show up with multiple pages printed out
of a conversation that occurred over the weekend between their
child and a bully and said, deal with that. And teachers,
you know, they then have to go and teach their class,
(13:18):
and they also have classes with thirty kids in them.
And I think what I'm finding really difficult watching this
conversation unfold is that a lot of the sentiment is
schools need to do something, governments need to do something,
teachers need to do something, as though they're not already,
and that simply isn't true. Schools have never had more
(13:40):
of a focus on student welfare, on pastoral care, on
having strategies, of having school counselors, of having psychologists, of
having people from headspace or people come in and speak
to them. Like to suggest that schools aren't trying, I
think is totally incorrect.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Can you appreciate that mother's anguish that the schools have
perhaps done everything they can and she said, this has
been happening for over a year, her daughter is self harming.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Relate, Yeah, And hearing the pain in her voice, I
felt empathy. I think that there is an instinct to
protect that I do empathize with. I don't accept the
binary that you have two choices. One is to go
into the classroom, and the other is to attend your
child's funeral. I think drawing a straight line between bullying
(14:29):
and ending someone's life is really dangerous and incorrect. Bullying
is rampant. Of course, it impacts mental health, and there
have been cases in Australia of kids who have died
after really awful bullying. That is totally a thing, But
when someone takes their life, there are multiple, multiple factors
that come at play, and to suggest that.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
That puts it's every parent's fear, that's what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
But it makes parents more scared to suggest that if
your child is being bullied at home, then careful because
this is how it's going to end, and not a
most it won't.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think that's why most parents can empathize with her
is because we are all parenting from a place of
fear of worst case scenario looming in our heads. Because
it's reported often right, we hear these terrible stories and
if you have teenagers, the things they say to each
other on the internet are quite shocking, like they really
(15:24):
really are. And this is a really complicated issue, as
you've said, Jesse, because the thing that I'm a little
of course I understand and empathize with this woman. I
really do Team Mama Bear, as they're calling themselves, who
is saying, I totally get it. I back her. It's
absolutely understandable in your bones if you're a parent. I
remember the first time I felt it. I was in
(15:44):
a playground. My daughter would have been eighteen months and
a little kid the same age just came over and
pushed her over. Now, I remember feeling for the first
time that, like rush of protector, I wanted to push
that kid over. I wanted to push them on the floor,
and I had to stop myself from doing it because
I am an adult who has to learn that you
don't meet violence with violence, and that that's not gonna help. Right. So,
(16:06):
although I entirely understand that woman's end life less distress
and frustration, I think that Team Mama Bear leads us
to a dangerous place. It leads us to a place
where it's fine to burst into a classroom and threaten
violent murder in front of a whole room full of
children and a teacher who has to somehow deal with
that and then regroup afterwards. It leads us to parents
(16:28):
who fight on the sidelines at sport. It leads us
to all kinds of places. So although I have a
lot of empathy for her, and I've seen similar situations
play out in my life, I think it's dangerous to
valorize it.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I really it has become more commonplace too, having parents
burst into the playground.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It's happened at the school that a friend of mine's
child attends, and a mother came in and actually pushed
over another child who she accused of bullying her child.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And often it's really complicated because and I'm not talking
about this instance, which sounds horrendous, but often when you
trace back, well, what did you say to them? And
how's this escalated? And are you completely like it's not
offen that black and white? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it
absolutely is. And as parents, we are programmed obviously to
(17:17):
believe and empathize and support our kids, and that's our job, right,
But it's often much more complicated, and that's often what
schools and teachers have to try it on.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, and then schools and teachers and not only protecting
students against other students, but students against parents. Like that's
a total power imbalance too, that just isn't fir feah.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And different kids have different levels of resilience at different
times in their life, depending on what's going on and
for them, you know, I have another friend who discovered
that her child was involved in something and people were
sending their messages and among them were like, kill yourself,
kill yourself. And she was so shocked and her child
(17:59):
was like, Oh no, that's just what people say, Like,
that's just what people says.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Frendous all this to say, you know, there's a discussion
being going on in the Facebook out loud as group
about this, and there are some absolutely heartbreaking stories about
bullying and the results of bullying and having to take
kids out of school and the mental health implications. And
then there are also stories in there from parents whose
kids have been accused of bullying and what's that's done. So,
like almost everything, it's a really complicated issue. And I
(18:27):
am a little bit worried about celebrating this woman as
a I.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Don't think you need to celebrate her as a hero,
but you can still say I can empathize with you.
She's not celebrating herself as a hero. She's saying she
sounds proud of what I did.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Stress She's like, you know what I think, wish.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I hadn't had to do that, and I'm not proud.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Of me because that leads and valorizing that video, putting
her to the side is the response that I think
has made a few people scared because teachers are bracing
themselves going on next week? Is it just going to
be parent on parents shout out to teachers. That's total anarchy.
But I looked at this and went, what should she
have done? So she did try the school, and I
think that there's a question there about you know, I
(19:06):
saw a video and it was a woman going the
government needs to do more, All the schools need to
do more.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
There are exact there's comprehensive laws around bullying, combining federal
and state laws with school based policies and interventions. But
as Holly said, a lot of this stuff is not
black and white, like if you punch another kid or
if you steal something that is pretty cut and dry,
but bullying, there are false accusations, there's context.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
In now chats that disappear.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, exactly, there's a burden of proof all of these things.
There's stuff that happens.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Outside school ours challenging and I don't know if she
did this, she might have already done this. I think
she should have called the parents of the bully. I
reckon that that's the next step. That's the in between,
is that if you feel like the school isn't doing enough,
rather than approaching the bully, who I'm going to assume
has their own stuff going on, because that's horrendous, inexcusable behavior,
(19:56):
speaking to the parent.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, I think schools mostly discourage that, but I agree
that's probably better. And if this is an issue that's
prevalent in your life, we will put links in the
show notes to some support services.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
In a moment. The difference between asking and guessing and
why it's probably the reason you're fighting with whoever you're
fighting with right now. Picture this, friends, Your best friend
is planning you a birthday dinner. They ask you where
do you want to go? And you say, I don't
really mind, safe in the knowledge that your best friend,
(20:30):
who knows you, will remember that time that you recently
said I'd love to try that bite and sip place.
But you say you choose. Your friend though, thinks that
when you say you don't mind, you mean you don't mind,
So they choose a completely different restaurant that you went
to once and thought it was mid and you're sad
and a little bit heard about it. If this is you,
(20:52):
the likelihood is you grew up in a guess house
and they grew up in an ask house. Once you
understand this difference about askers and guessers, it's going to
make sense of a lot of things. Right Like that
time you thought you made a strong suggestion that that
junior at work should start wearing shoes to meetings, but
they just keep on turning up barefoot. You're probably a guesser,
(21:15):
and she probably thinks that if it was essential, you
would have asked her directly to put her fucking shoes on.
In ask culture, individuals are encouraged to openly request what
they want, regardless of how unreasonable it might seem. Sometimes
take care of their own needs and expect others to
take care of their needs, make requests even if there's
(21:36):
a high likelihood of refusal, and to expect direct answers
with yes meaning yes and no meaning no seems reasonables.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Like a child yes, marriage counselor.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Whereas guess culture, individuals avoid making requests unless they're fairly
certain of a positive response yes. There's an emphasis on
reading contextual cues and shared expectations, right, thinking, well, they're
going to get the vibe of what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I'm just going to drop some hints.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
People try to minimize who are a guesser, try to
minimize the risk of rejection or causing discomfort, and requests
are often made indirectly with the hope that others will
offer without being explicitly as.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I love this, okay, mind, he as an asker.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
How does this play out in your life? Jesse? He
is an asker and Oscar and I I am such
a guesser.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
This is okay?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yes, And I believe some of my children are askers,
some of them are guesses. I would say yes.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
So this is the central tension of my marriage, in
that I'm a guesser and Luca is an asker, and
I have to say to him I think some asks
are unreasonable, and he doesn't think there's any such thing
as an unreasonable ask because he thinks it's your job
to say.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
No, yes, oh, yes. An example.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
So this isn't a lucer example. This is a friend
of mine. It isn't Luca. A friend of mine has
his mum helping with childcare and his mum shows up
and he says, while you're here, can you make my bed?
That to me is an unreasonable request that is loaded
with disrespect. He thinks it's on her to say no.
(23:25):
I also there was a really good example of that
about moving right at your moving house, an asker will
say to all their friends.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
An asker will do, put it up as an Instagram
story and say, can anyone help me this weekend? I'm
moving I need some help. I'm horrified by that. What
I would do is go mea, what are you doing
on Saturday? And then you might say, ah, I'm busy,
and I go great. I won't ask ma'am, and then
I'll go Holly, what are you up to this weekend?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Nolan, I'm moving house?
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Mouse terrible, that's all shop, and then it's a whole conversation.
I'll probably ask Holly three questions between that, and I
might even wait for Holly to offer.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Definitely, because I am a sign, I don't think there's
a like, a better or worse in this.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I do guesses are better?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, No, I don't know, because I think guess is
a passive aggressive I think guesses are perpetually frustrated.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, and disappointed.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But also, and I am a guesser, definitely, I'm a guesser.
I am very much they'll get the vibe, right, yeah,
But the problem with that is lots of people don't
get the vibe. A lot of neurodiverse people are certainly
not going to get the vibe. They need to be
told and asked and had things spelled out leaderboards. Yes, request.
But also, like the thing about guesses, and again I
am one, is that we are a bit passive aggressive
(24:38):
because we might go I'm moving on Saturday, and then
nobody says anything, and then we're really offended when no
one helps us move, Whereas like the askers were like, well,
you didn't ask me, so I didn't know that you
wanted me to help you.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Do.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You know what's so annoying? Now I understand you a
bit better, Jesse, because I just assumed how long have
I known you? We are related? Yeah, And to me,
it's a sign of intimacy when people can ask you
things like I just assumed we would eventually get to
the spot where you'd be like, hey, can I drop
or over to your house?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
But still it makes me feel physically sick.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, that's a sign of intimacy instead of just.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It's all about the how she grew up in Oh,
it's all about the family you're from and whether they
were askers or guesses in general, like most things in life.
But it's interesting to parents.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
What I know of your mother's your mother? Your mother?
I know. Well, they're very direct, but.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They're only directed in certain situations their opinions, do you
know what I mean, Like the directing opinions like those
pants aren't great, but they're not direct in asking for
things or advocating for themselves directly, like that is something they're.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Really bad in fact advocators.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
In fact, I watch it happen with my parents' old age,
and I wish they were more askers because they're not like,
well the doctor would tell me right if there was something, yes,
you know what I mean, they weren't asking.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I'm very frustrating with even like say a hospital or
you're dealing with a service, and my thing is always
like I'm just this little person who's like I'm like
the mckernicle and called me back about when ready, and
Luca's very busy. If Luca's already on the phone going.
You said the car would be back today. Will it
be back today?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Oh? Wait to hit Perry. That will help you become
an asker. Do you know what's interesting is that askers
believe that it's on other people to say no to
their requests. Askers don't tend to like hearing no. I
know this because when one of my parents asked me
to do a thing which I thought was unreasonable that
involved their dog and I said no, they got very angry.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
See.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I think some askers are very comfortable with no. Like Luca.
He doesn't have an emotional response to the no. He
just thinks you advocate your clear. It's something I really
admire about him because it makes life a lot simpler.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
But he's the guy that sends people lists of what
he wants for his birthday. Yeah, and it is so helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
The thing with being a guesser and Valentine's Day, which
is on Friday, is a good example, is that we're like,
I don't care, I don't mind, don't do anything, and
then you don't do anything. And particularly if you're an
ex guess or are, the resentment around that can be
really real, which is why the woman who wrote the
article on Mom and Me as she said that she's
a guesser married to an asker and they had to
(27:18):
like sit down and unpack it, yeah, and like decode
it in bits, because what are you really.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Making people listening to this going everything makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
The issue with being married to and ask her if
you're a guesser is that you can look around at
your life sometimes and go, wait a minute, I didn't
make one of these calls. I didn't make one of
these decisions. We're going on this holiday and living in
this house and doing this on Saturday, and that's not
what I want. But you've never advocated for yourself. So
the big tension Luca and I had after Luna was
(27:48):
born was he would turn to me and go, I
need Luca time this afternoon between blah and blah. He
thought I would say no if I wasn't comfortable with it,
and I was horrified that you would even ask because
I would never ask. And eventually it was like, in
order for us to have an equal relationship, I had
to learn to ask.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You can decode if you know people well, so in
the instace it's of the birthday, dinner or whatever. My
friend Panny she says, what do you want to do?
And I go, let's see. Maybe She's like that's a no.
She just because I won't say though, But.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Maya does that to me too. She's like, you don't
want to do that, and I'm like, ah.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
It's just easy for you to say no. I'd hate that.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a
giver as well as the recipient.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I have a quick bit of feedback for people putting
beef fat on their face. That a thing I don't
want to. Don't make me.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Why would they be doing that?
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Well, last week, Kate Langbrook thrust a jar of beef
fat or tallow into my hands in the Mum and
may kitchen and she said, you've got to use this.
You've just got to put this on your face. And
I said, I'm a vegetarian, and she said, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
She has lovely skins.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
She has beautiful skins. I sort of dismissed it as
being just a Kate wooy thing, and try I notice
that it's actually a new trend in skincare that's being
spread on social media by people who say it's rich
in vitamins and Apparently it mimics our skins, natural oils
or something, but dermatologists say, yes, it might moisturize, but
(29:18):
it can also trap bacteria, and it's very clogging, and
it can cause breakouts. But on the positive side, dogs
will love you and try to lick your face.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Apparently. I heard I was reading a review that said
the first time you put it on, you can't really
smell the beef, and then after a few days you're
like that, actually real stinks like that.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
My mat used to make me eat beef fat on
toast dripping. We call it is not the same thing.
Can we just take that jar and spread it on
my bread?
Speaker 1 (29:43):
I guess you could. It's treated like it's in a
jar with a label. But skin experts suggests that you
should stick to scientifically prove an ingredients like squalene or
sunflower seed oil instead, or just do what I do
and use expensive chemicals and sometimes a needle filled with.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Poison after the break distracts leake text and passive aggressive dancing.
Why the biggest names in entertainment are proving that revenge
isn't just a dish best served cold, It's also served
with a grammy.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mere subscribers. Follow the link
of the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Id on dress for women, i'd on dress for men.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I've been dressing for.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Revert Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar, Serena Williams, Taylor Swift. All four
have harnessed what writer Rachel Richardson calls the secret source
of those that shape culture. Simply, they have enacted revenge.
We spoke on the show a few weeks ago about
a concept called micro pettiness, and the outluders jumped up
(31:02):
and down and went, this is my life. This is
all I do.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
They are small, barely perceptible examples of pettiness.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
It's mini revenge.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
She's like microvenge, micro Yes, exactly right, it's going. I
don't want you to see my revenge, but I know
I got it.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
This is the opposite to that. This is big macro pettiness,
Richardson writes. Kendrick Lamar rocked the Super Bowl halftime show
and won five Grammys for not like us because of
a feud. Beyonce was finally honored with the Album of
the Year Grammy for her country album Cowboy Carter, which
was inspired by a snub, and Taylor Swift went stratospheric
(31:37):
when she embraced vengeance the lesson have an OP and
be a next level hater. An OP is an opponent
or enemy that you set yourself up against. Perhaps the
biggest feud in pop culture right now is between one
Kendrick Lamar, the thirty seven year old American rapper who
performed at the Super Bowl halftime show, and Drake.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Wearing bootcut jeans, I might add, and now they're everywhere Drake,
who is a thirty eight year old Canadian rapper who's
in Australia, Holly not having a good way.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
You have one minute to explain to us.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Why.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
For one minute, it has fallen to me it's a
feud for the ages. Look, I'm not gonna get all
the nuances in this complicated feud for the ages, and
I'm certainly not gonna nail White explaining hip hop. But
my proximity to rap obsessed teens means this high level
research project has fallen to me here goes. Drake is
an unlikely outsider in the hip hop world, even though
(32:34):
he's one of its biggest stars. He's Canadian. He's become
a huge star for his allegedly good music and also
by not taking himself too seriously. He's extremely online. He's
happy to make himself a meme. He doesn't mind a
love song, and he's also happy to be all dough
eyed about women like Rihanna and Serena Williams. Back to
that in a moment. He also loves making diss tracks,
which are typical of the genre. A dis track slags
(32:56):
off another rapper, usually over basic stuff like who's got
more money, who's got a better house, who's faster with
the rhymes.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Etc.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Meanwhile, Kendrick Lamar is a very serious dude. He's from
Compton in LA and you don't get more heart of
hip hop than that. He'solytical and thoughtful and hard edged.
The man has won a Pulitzer Prize for his music.
For God's sake. He also until recently, did not do distracks.
Not his thing. He's on a higher plane until last year,
when the man got sick of being all Michelle Obama
(33:24):
about it and reached his limit because Drake just kept
going at him with the tracks, and one of the
things he said in one is that he knows that
Kendrick abused a former partner. He also used AI to
make a dis track about Lamar that used the voices
of Tupac and Snoop Dogg, legendary rappers. He just keeps
going and going going, so Kendrick goes, Okay, here we go.
And in May last year, he makes a distrack of
(33:46):
his own about Drake, only it's on steroids. It's called
not Like Us, and it accuses Drake of being a phony,
saying everyone hates him, and most famously accuses him of
being a pedophile. The cover artwork of this song is
a literal picture of Drake's actual house with sex offender
tags on it, and it has the clever, clever line
of this strikes a chord and it's probably minor. The
(34:08):
song is a dead set bang, which is a word
that upsets my children. Goes to number one, breaks all
streaming records, goes viral on TikTok, even wins Grammys, has
the whole industry singing and dancing to it. It's safe
to say that this has transcended Drake and Lamar at
this point, and it's also safe to say that although
Drake is suing Lamar's record company, which also happens to
be his own record company, Lamar won that disc battle
(34:30):
hands down. And then, lastly, the Serena Williams of it
all is that in the song Lamar says best not
speak on Serena, and Serena, who is also from Compton
where Kendrick is from, was briefly linked to Drake, and
let's just say he did love it when she was
more interested in her now husband than him, and in
one of her songs he sings side by Serena, your
(34:50):
husband's a groupie, which is ironic. Important side note, all
claims made by the rappers in this update a speculative,
unproven and almost certain alleged at this point.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
How did I do that? Was closer to two minutes,
but I was just going to let you play on
because I was riveted. I tried to do it faster,
but this a lot that's incredibly helpful. Do you know
the biggest exam sample of revenge that we're all living
through is Trump, because it's said that the reason he
decided to run for president was because he was dissed
(35:19):
by Obama at a White House correspondence dinner when he
was in the audience, and he was so humiliated that
he went going to run for president and bloody hell,
look where we are.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
That's so true. And the other example that I'm seeing
is Justin Baldoni dropping one hundred and sixty seven pages
of emails and texts as an active revenge.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And some people say her lawsuit is an active revenge, yeah,
against him.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So the thing that's interesting to me, and particularly about
this Lamar business, and you know, our friend Taylor Swift
has been in her career big on the revenge, is
that we used to be upset about it, you know,
and be like be the bigger person, rise above, but
not like us has become such a massive smash. They
say it's in all genres now, like kids are dancing
to it. Everybody's into it. And I've seen some analysis
(36:11):
that says it's a hateful song, like it's a brilliant song,
and that's you know, you can excuse a lot if
you've got a good beat, like blurredlines or whatever, but
it's a hateful song, and that America is feeling hateful,
and that's why it has been embraced.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
In own people are angry. I reckon that that.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Is not necessarily with Drake, just like with Shit.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, people broadly, I think are feeling a lot of anger,
and I think that's also why the bullying video went viral,
because watching someone seek vengeance is so cathartic, because everyone
has someone in their life that they would dream of
writing a disc track of yelling at them.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But then becomes the biggest thing in the world.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yes, and of course we are bound by these social
rules that we all have to play by, but when
something breaks through like this, I think it gives us
a sense of control as well. And Taylor doesn't she
have an album that she's re releasing this year Maya potentially.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Well, everybody's been waiting for REPTV, which is the Taylor's
version of her Reputation album, which was essentially a revenge album.
It's also a love album. It's one of her best albums,
but would you like me to talk about it was
about Kanye and Kim. But even in her most recent album,
which is Tortured Poets Department, there are a couple of
(37:28):
diss tracks and revenge tracks on that. There's The Smallest
Man Who Ever Lived, which is about Mattie Healy allegedly,
and then there's Thank You Amy, which is about Kim
Kardashian and basically how Kim ruining her life by releasing
those doctored voicemail messages and implying that Taylor was a
liar in an argument with her then husband Kanye. She
(37:49):
sort of spurred Taylor on to write one of the
greatest albums of her life and basically, look at where
Kanye is now and look at where Taylor is. So yeah,
that revenge worked.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
But that bit where we talked about this on the show.
But where the reason you can decode that because she
capitalized the letters Kim and the title. That's an act
of micropenniness for sure.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah, she could have been a lot more obvious with it.
I think as well, hate can feel really energizing. Maybe
it's a form of resistance. Maybe it's like everyone's talking
about what you do when you're kind of just feeling
angry about the world. I think sometimes you just scream
at your neighbor.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
To quote me a Friedman, Is that what we're doing? Now?
Speaker 1 (38:26):
What are we doing? Now, gosh, there's been a lot
of screaming and a revenge in this episode.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Happily not between us. That's my yeah, that is all
we have time for. Out Louders, thank you so much
for listening to today's show, and of course to our
team for putting it together as they do every time.
We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
And before we go, we've watched Nicole Kidman's film Baby
Girl altogether. It was quite quite a moment. We've experienced
quite a few things in our little movie night.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
There's a viral video going around of people going to
clean the cinema after people have watched Baby Girl and
they go and wipe down the seats.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
Oh that's We needed to unpack a lot of things,
so we thought we'd leave you today with a sneak
peak of that conversation, and for the full chat, check out.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
The link in the show notes, out Louders. Last night, Holly,
Jesse and I watched Paorn together with a milestone in
our relationship. It's now the next day we saw Baby
Girl together at the movies. I had a chop top
while we watched Nicole have orgasms. Jesse, what did you
have you.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
I had popcorn, but I also got a drink.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Holly, Holly, I.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Had popcorn too. I was literally eating popcorn watching Nicole
Kidman have orgasms in this very buzzy movie.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Of course, we're not here to talk about movie snacks.
We're here to talk about Baby Girl and give you
a very honest review of this film that you no
doubt have heard about. You may have seen it by now.
It starts Withicle Kidman, Bye.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and me a
subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want
to support us, subscribing to Mom and Mia is the
very best way to do so. There's a link in
the episode description.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
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