December 1, 2025 • 46 mins
Beer cans with the bride and groom's faces on them, a dress that just HAD to be Aussie, and a dog in a dress... Yes, we're talking about Albo's wedding, and the problem with marrying the Prime Minister.
Also, what does the winner of the TikTok Awards — a dad of four who posts pranks and skits with his kids online — tell us about the different standards for the way men and woman 'sharent'?
And everyone's talking about an Oprah Winfrey show episode, which is extremely 2011, about family estrangement, and the 'contagion' of going 'No Contact' with your family. Only problem is... Are all these boundaries kind of Oprah's fault?
Plus, why Robert Irwin has achieved world domination by being... nice.
Holly, Amelia and Jessie get into it. AND into some Mamamia merch. For the first time ever, MMOL T-shirts and tote bags are discounted! Get the T-shirt for $50 and the tote bag for $20. Sale ends Dec 6. Shop now. 🎉 🎉 🎉 🎉
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Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the very latest episode of Parenting Out Loud, the parenting podcast for people who don't listen to... parenting podcasts.
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- Robert Irwin is the walking green flag the world needs.
- Everything we know about Anthony Albanese and Jodie Haydon's top-secret wedding.
- 'Sam and Marie have been estranged for years. Here's how I got them speaking again.'
- Oprah just called family estrangement an 'epidemic.' A relationship coach claims she caused it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Monday, December the first.
I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Amelia Leuster and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And here's what's made our agenda for today. Oprah Wimfrey
is getting all kinds of attention for her big special
about going no contact with your family, But isn't it
all kind of Oprah's fault?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
And the Prime Minister got married on the weekend. We
have some not so scoulous gossip from the event, and
I also want to tell you why his wedding passes
the pub test.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
And the Creator of the Year at the TikTok Awards
is a beloved father of four who shares his kids
regularly online. Are we harder on women who feature their
kids in content or is it just the type of
content these creators are making?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But first, in case you missed it, and probably did
because there were only eighty guests, the Prime Minister got
married on the weekend. Anthony Alberanizi married Jody Hayden at
the Lodge in Canberra. The wedding took place in the
afternoon at about four twenty pm on Saturday afternoon. This
song signed Sealed, delivered by Stevie Wonder was heard wafting
(01:28):
from the lodge as they walked back down the aisle
together after exchanging their vows. Now, I think this is
lovely me too.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
My mom asked me if I was invited, and I was, Mother,
you vastly overestimate my importance and influence on going.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
A lot of front benches, a lot of labor front
fenches weren't even invited. It was very select Apparently they
had originally decided they were going to invite about three
hundred people, but then they whistled it down to about eighty,
and so it meant that a lot of big labor
figures were not there. Tanya Plibasec, for instance, not invited.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I was very interested in that because you know what,
the three hundred mark they just went invite.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
All of them. Weddings are political.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All of them.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Weddings are political at.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
The best of times. When you are the PM, they
are especially political. And eight years of smallish wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It is hard and I think that the who do
you invite from your workplace is always an incredibly contentious question,
and as you say, it's extra hard when the people
you're dealing with are literally politicians. So let me just
run through who was there? Who wasn't there? On the
label left contingent. You had Katie Gallagher, you had Penny Wong,
you had Jin Chalmers, you had Richard Miles, but not invited,
(02:36):
Like I said, Tanya Pubisek wasn't there. A lot of
other cabinet ministers were not there. One nice little invite
that I saw was that some of Albo's friends from
growing up in social housing made the cut.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Well, I always think about weddings in terms of almost rings, right,
So you go, okay, I've got my close friends, I've
got these and then you kind of get to a
point and you go, you're too far outside the circle.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
This doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And sometimes it's easier to exclude a whole faction of
people rather than pick and shoose action being the word yep,
faction being the wed in sitting down and doing his
They clearly went our line is state premieres.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
None, only one of them, and I'm sure he's got.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Some mates there, but he went. You can't invite New
South Wales and not invite Queensland.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
You can't.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I love that they kept it small because it makes
it seem very real. Can you imagine if this was
like a Trump era American political wedding, we'd have like
a gold plated dance floor and carriages aronomy, and the
King would have been invited, and then there would have
been a kerfuffle about whether or not he was going
to come. I think he hit the tone right, Do
we agree? Do we think he got because imagine the
(03:40):
drama we're going to talk about that, But imagine the
pressure on getting it right when you're marrying the Prime
Minister and.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Waking up, rolling over on the morning of your wedding
day and checking the news and going, please, please, please
please don't make a war have broken out, like, just
make it a quiet news day so that my wedding
doesn't look tone deaf, Amelia, Did I miss it?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Did we know this was coming?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
No one knew what was coming. It was really kept
under wraps. Apparently the Prime Minister was being interviewed last
week by Behind the News, remember btn that kid's news show,
and the kids were asking him all sorts of questions,
and then the principal asked him if he was going
to get married anytime soon, and there was something in
the response that did make them apparently wonder. But it
(04:25):
was very secret, and in part this was because there
were evidently some security concerns around it, and it's partly
been speculated that's why it wasn't at Kurabilly House, which
of course has the water views. No offense camera, but
it does have the water views, and that's because the
lodge has very high walls, so they figured it would
be easier to control and monitor for security reason.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Apparently, when people did start getting the wind of it
after that principle, the Catholic school principle made everybody's antenne
I go up, as Amelia said. The Herald reports that
news editors across the nation were warned off running any
preview stories under security fears, and the ones who pushed
back received a follow up phone call from security agencies
(05:06):
saying don't you dare, And it seems that they listened.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
It probably deserves the wedding without protests outside.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It also had no phones, which is very modern of them.
There was no social media hashtag that they asked you
to use on Instagram or anything. They did say, you
have to leave your phones at the door.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
So the dress would have been like there was going
to be a spotlight on the dress, right because she
could have like they.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Probably could have afforded.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I don't know what are the fancy brands versaci, I.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Don't do you remember Jesse when Zoe Foster Blake wore
Gucci to the Logis once and the world went mad.
Australia went mad and went what there are no Australian
design is good enough for you? Now you're so fancy, Like,
imagine if Zoe Foster Blake can't wear Gucci to the logis.
Imagine if the Prime Minister's wife had chosen an international
(05:54):
brand to get marrieded so she is the level of
things she would have had to show.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
She had to wear Australian. But at the same time,
Australian designers are rightfully pricey because it's made here and
materials and dah da da. So she had shoot an
Australian designer who wasn't expensive and wasn't flaunting wealth and saying.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I studded with diamonds or like it was. It was
Romance was born, which is a very cool, beautiful, very
very bit energy right, very edgy, very cool. It's kind
of an The thing I love about them is that
Albow is such a gen xer. He's an old gen xer.
He's sixty two, but like he still likes to hold
(06:37):
onto his like I'm from the Inner West and I
go to the pub and they had beers with their
faces on them.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, their first day was a brewery, so that was
a little bit of a throwback.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And he DJs as we know. So it's like romance
was born. Is like, it's cool, but it's not twenty
five year old influencer cool, right. I think they nailed that.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
I was also interested in the guess list because my
first question was was Kyle Sandalance it? And the reason
I needed to know was because Albo was famously invited
to Kyle's wedding. He went with Chris Min and I thought,
it's always awkward when you've been invited to that wedding,
which was very trumpy, and in some ways.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That was that was wedding the Albow could have had
if he was a different human.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
That's why he needed them to publish eighty guests so
that Kyle got the memo you were number eighty one. Yep,
it was just that you didn't quite make.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The dog wore a dress. What did we think about that?
Loved it because there was a five year old flower
girl who was Jody's niece. Yep, and she and the
dog wore matching Yes, so I didn't know that Toto
was a dressed kind of dog.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Anyone who has a dog that they can train to
behave and perform a duty on their wedding day deserves
a medal.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Apparently Toto got a bit of stage fright. No, apparently
it was a bit touch and go going to make
it down the aisle.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They didn't have best man, best women, didn't do any
of that. They just had themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I approve of. I'm on the record as saying wedding
parties of control.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
I have a big question. This is my new Roman Empire.
They're going on a honeymoon in Australia.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Right are they going to carry out to that? They
went overseas last month or quite recently to supposedly plan
the wedding, so you know, it was moons constant.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So they're going on a honeymoon. It has to be Australia,
I suppose, Right, is there honeymoon. They want to go
somewhere fancy, but at the same time can't be too fancy.
All I do is think about they are because where they.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Want to go blow their security. Where they want to
go is Qualia.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Where they do have to go, it's probably a caravan
park or.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I went, oh, they could go there.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I think they could this year.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's stunning.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's not no ways safe labor. They need to go.
It's Queensland they're going to.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
That's the rumor is that it's North Queensland. So where
in North.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Queens because the politically Queensland is a bit more of
a sort of like oscillating state in terms of it's
party preferences. I think it's going to be Queensland. But yeah,
where is anyone's guess.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
This is your deep telling you that Magnetic Islands.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Oh they're going to Golsid Island.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
They're going to go. That's no, that's too shy. I
think it's Gold Coast.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
No, nothing wrong with the Gold Coast. But they've got
to go somewhere remote.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And he's going to want to do a DJ set
somewhere he.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Gets to turn his phone off. This is what I
said to Brent. I was like, imagine being Jodi, who
has her own job and all those things. Imagine being
married to the Prime minister, like a you've got to
work out whether or not you know your drinks are
too expensive or whatever at the wedding. But also does
he ever get to turn his phone off on the honeymoon,
even for twenty four hours? What did they good?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Question?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Because I think it would be tough being married.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Not right twenty four hours.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I think I muld have waited till he got voted out.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And it's an interesting part in the cycle, right because
by the time there's another election, they will have forgotten
about the wedding, right, they had to time it to
kind of go timing.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He had a good year, He had a good year.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
I think this time of year he maybe waited for
a few foreign policy things to chill.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Like I think they're watching the sunset and broom right now.
I think they are. I think then they're on a camel.
They't like they've got all that. I reckon, we'll get
one pitch. So I saw this on my feed. I
must have had a tingling sense that Albo had news
for me. And there's Abon it just said married. It
(10:36):
was very cool. One picture married. I think we'll get
one sunset and broom picture.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Now I'm going far north Queensland.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
That's my money.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Australia's having a good weekend. Not only did we have
a very cool prime ministerial wedding, DBC reported it thought
it was very tasteful.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Oh I know, look at that.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
They obviously hadn't seen the matching beer cans. Anyway, not
only do we have that, but we also have the
man that the entire universe is pointing at and saying,
this is what we need more of, and it is
one Robert Irwin. On the weekend there was an article
in the New York Times, if you don't mind, called
(11:14):
Robert Irwin is actually that nice? And in it, journalist
Ashley Spencer writes, fans and there are many, have praised
mister Irwin as a beacon of positive masculinity. For his vulnerability,
he makes no attempt to appear cool or aloof. He
often throws his head back in full throated laughter, and
he gleefully celebrates everyone around him. So we have arrived
(11:38):
at a place, friends, where one of the most adored
men in the world. He just won Dancing with the Stars.
He's everywhere you look. Grew up in a zoo on
the Sunshine Coast, Jesse. What is it about Robert Irwin
that is the beacon of positive masculinity?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Man?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
When I was doing a bit of work with Channel
tent through the project, he obviously had started hosting I'm
a Celebrity and had come up on He'd done a
few stints and stuff on the project. I never heard
a single bad word about that much. He was universally loved.
They all said that that is.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Such a good question, Amelia.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I was on my best behavior hearing that information, and
they were like, he's just so charismatic and happy all
the time. I was like, he is just so good
at what he does, and he was spotted and they
kind of went, this man is actually talent. And when
he went on to do I'm a Celebrity, I didn't
(12:39):
know this, but he said to them, I'm sure I
read this in the New York Times article that he
only agreed to it if they agreed to stop serving
native wildlife and it's eating challenges. So he had his
light line where he just went, yeah, I'll do it,
but just don't do that. The other detail in that
profile was did you see the footage of Prince William
wish him good luck on dancing with.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
The sin about the universal adoration? Royalty is beaming in
to wish him good luck. The New York Times is writing, gosh,
is Amelia, you have an understanding of what Americans like
about Australias. What's going on here?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, it's interesting. There was a quote that stood out
to me, and the article came from I think his mum.
She said he's what Tom Cruise wishes he was. And
the reason I thought that was interesting is because he
seems genuinely relaxed in front of the camera, Yes, which
(13:36):
I think we take to mean he's a good guy
and he sounds like a good guy, But he does
telegraph genuine relaxation in front of in front of a camera,
and it's like almost a movie star quality, which is
I think why his mom bought in Tom Cruise.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Do you think we like that because that's such a
good point. If you can appear relaxed in front of
the camera, it makes you quite likable. Do you think
that's because it kind of suggests you have nothing to.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Happen yeah, I think so. I think we sort of
see it as a proxy for someone who's honest and
reliable and upstanding. And then I was thinking about why
he would be relaxed, and it's because he he's been
in front of cameras since he was born. I was
reminded in this article that he was filmed as a
newborn in the delivery room because of course his father
was already a celebrity. And then just a few weeks
(14:18):
after that there was this big uproar because his father
was holding him in one arm while feeding a crocodile
in the other. So if you're already having that experience
in front of the camera when you're four weeks old,
you're probably able to convey a lot of relaxation when
you get older.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So interesting though, isn't it, Because for some kids who've
grown up with that kind of fame following them around,
particularly a big law like with Steve Owen, who obviously
tragically died so young. You can go one of two ways.
It can either make you very private and very like
I hate these people who always trying to get into
my life, or to your point, it can make you
(14:55):
just relax and see it for what it is in
terms of doing good with that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
It's like Prince Harry is sort of the first example.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That's why Prince William called he was like a word
Harry for me.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I want a parenting book written by Terry. I think
Terry knows exactly what she's doing, what a brilliant mother.
I cannot watch Robert Owen do anything without a tear
in my eye because I think about how proud his
father would be, So I think that's an element to it.
And also Bindiowen one ten years ago dancing with the Stars,
Did she yes? Ten years ago? And now Robert Owen
(15:28):
has won? Is it also because Americans can lay a
little bit of claim through Terry, like, yes, he's Australian,
but he's also half theirs, so they can kind of
he's like mel Gibson, but better exactly without the controversy.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Clearly we need both a parenting book and a ballroom
dancing guide by Terry.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I'm sorry, also a third book, a marriage book, because
you know the clip that goes viral on the internet
every six months or so depicts Terry and Steve being
interviewed and the way that Terry looks at Steve has
almost become an internet meme because she looks at him
in such a sort of adoring and loving way. So
Terry just needs to advise us.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
All clearly with Terry Erwindo in a moment, is life
just too stressful to have difficult family relationships?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
As well?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
The Oprah specials that sparked a whole lot of finger pointing.
Everyone is talking about an episode of the Oprah Winfrey Show,
which makes me feel fifteen years old. Ope sit a
special on her podcast, which is actually a whole TV
(16:36):
show on the YouTube platform. It's very funny what gets
called a podcast now. And it's exactly like the old
Oprah Winfrey Show, this particular.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Super soul conversations.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's different.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
This is the Oprah Show. And so I haven't watched many,
so I don't know if they're all the same. Actually
I didn't watch it. I listened to it, but I
should have watched it because it was made for watching.
In that just like the old Oprah Show, there's a
studio audience who will have some experience in the topic.
There's a panel of experts. So she had three psychologists
who had expertise and had written books about it. And
then you've got a a handpicked group of people who
(17:08):
will have a story to tell you. And this topic
was all about family estrangement and particularly how the no
contact contagion has taken over TikTok and people's lives. Oprah
says she was inspired to do it by the story
of a nameless friend. This is what she said, A.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Friend might call me recently distraught over the fact that
her grown daughter, whom she thought she had a really
great relationship with and had recently just gone to dinner with,
center a message saying I'm no longer going to be
in contact with you. Please do not try to reach me.
(17:48):
She thought something had happened to her child, that perhaps
she'd been kidnapped, and realized shortly after sending authorities to
see if her daughter was okay, that it was true
that her daughter no longer wanted to have contact with her.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So after that story, said she was inspired to do this,
found that the no contact thing was massive, and so
we end up with this special where we get all
the experts. There are lots of stories on it. Some
of them are amazing, I'll tell you later. But some
people got a little bit sniffy about the idea of
Oprah being like, Oh, there's this thing called family estrangement
and it's a trend now and all the young people
are doing it. What's wrong with the young people? In particular,
(18:28):
this conservative commentator called Tanya Cazal, who is very much
about family rehabilitation, I guess you'd say, posted this instagram
that got quite a lot attraction of like why is
Oprah surprised about this?
Speaker 6 (18:41):
So now Oprah is shocked by the aftermath of estrangement
after being one of the biggest voices pushing it for decades,
Oprah the biggest plot twist in the entire family estrangement crisis.
While everyone is applauding her for finally discussing estrangement, very
few look at the iron in the contradiction. Oprah was
one of these strongest voices pushing the normalization of family
cut offs and not by accident, publicly, repeatedly, and openly,
(19:03):
and this started as far back as the nineties.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So Oprah obviously was one of the first TV shows
and it's hard to overstate the influence of her at
the time. Forty eight million Americans used to watch that
show a week like that is wild, and she was
very much responsible for a lot of the mainstreaming of
the therapy talk that we're all very conversant in. Now,
what did we think about this? Let's blame Oprah for
(19:27):
exactly what she's talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Can I ask you, I didn't realize that that commentator
that we just heard from is quote unquote conservative. Is
that because there's like a political overlay onto this conservative?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I guess I probably mean she's like a Christian conservative
family values person. Oh, but I think there definitely is,
because I think that the conservative overlay on this issue
is that the TikTok snowflake generation can't deal with conflict,
and that's why suddenly they're all hashtag not that's not
me saying that's the stereotype, And that's why the hashtag
(20:02):
no contact has become a little bit of a culture
war issue in and that it's sort of seen as
a bit of a generational schism.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Well, I'm so glad you raise that, because I do
have to admit I look at this a bit cynically
from Oprah's perspective. Here, If you think about the fact
that there might be a business reason for her to
suddenly cotton onto the dangers of family estrangement. I think
it's got to do with the age of her fan base.
So she's been seeking a younger audience for a really
long time now. I saw a twenty twelve New York
(20:33):
Times article called Oprah at a Crossroads twenty twelve, which
said that she was worried about her audience aging out
of her show and not being interested anymore. The median
age of her audience then was forty nine, So if
you do the maths on that, that means that her
fan base aging out of being mothers and aging into
being grandmothers, and they are the people who do not
(20:55):
want to be estranged from this quote unquote younger generation.
It's a business move on Oprah's part.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, okay, because the one thing I kept asking hearing
that criticism was hang on, did.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Oprah push estrangement? And I consumed a lot of in
the nineties.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Each of your experience as well, because I basically watched
it when I was chucking a sicky and came from school.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I chucked a lot of sicky got it, so, you
know a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So I would do my doctor film, my Oprah on
my Ready Steady Cooks, and I didn't do feel, I
don't know, really big on Oprah and every now and
then you just got a really good one. And while
she popularized terms maybe like toxic and I think narcissism
and those sorts of things and interviewed psychologists, I wouldn't
(21:45):
say she was encouraging people to go no contact. She
was about protecting your peace, and she had obviously had
really complicated family dynamics that she was honest about. But
what I struggle with when it comes to talking about
family estrangement as a cultural trend is that.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It isn't one thing.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It is millions of painful stories that vary from abuse
to neglect to maybe it is something that your eyes
would see as small. But to lump them all in
together and to suggest that rehabilitation is ideal for everyone
is also sugarcoating it, Like I think that it's unrealistic,
(22:30):
And so I find that as a cultural war issue,
I'm I find it irritating.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. So Oprah starts
this by saying that one third of Americans now say
that they are a strange from a family member. Now
that could mean their sister, their uncle. It doesn't have
to be in their parents. But that is a lot
and there is no question that this is a big trend,
like hashtag no contact on TikTok, lots of advice out
there about how to do it, how to pull it off,
(22:57):
people like get ready with me while I go and
tell my mum no contact. And also from the other side,
parents who've had this happen to them, their kild's got
no contact, making a lot of content about it, which
obviously is new in Oprah world. To your point about
why she would do it, Amelia, to me, it seems
like a perfect classic Oprah topic because you can get
all the sides in the room and have them talk
(23:18):
about it. It's not like Oprah was going, hey, I
think it's great, or hey I think it's bad. She
was just saying, let's talk about it. And the only
thing I found disingenuous is she did keep saying, oh,
in my day, we just had to put up with
all this stuff, which is a very common sort of
boomerish argument. But I want to play you a little
grab from one of the experts on this panel. She
(23:41):
is a woman called doctor Lindsay Gibson, and she's written
books about emotionally immature parents. And basically the argument here
because as you've said, Jesse, it is so complex why
people estrange their parents or decide not to talk to
them anymore, And everyone listening to us right now would
have such different experiences of their parental situation. But Dr
Lindsay Gibson kind of says that part of this is
(24:02):
about a generation of people who are kind of therapized
and understand stand a little bit about how to protect
their emotional piece and people who don't. But her other
argument is is that life has just become too stressful
for difficult relationships. This is what she said.
Speaker 7 (24:17):
We don't have the energy to put into relationships where
someone is going to be continually pushing back and making
us feel that what is going on inside us is
not valid.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Or is not true in some way.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
This old way of the respect for the role itself,
I think, for the role of the parent or the
authority figure thy mother.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 7 (24:45):
Yes, it says honor them, It doesn't say obey them,
agree with them, do whatever they say, make them the
most important person in the relationship. So those days of
the role trumping everything else are gone.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
People do not.
Speaker 7 (25:01):
Have the energy now to sustain a relationship that is
drained or difficult or constantly conflectual.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
She started that point by saying life has become too stressful,
like in general, too much is being astronomos all all
the time, and so our batteries are drained when it
comes to dealing with complicated relationships, and that that's part
of why there's a growing trend to simplify. What do
you think about that?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I think that's an interesting point. I also have seen
a lot of commentary recently about the structure of therapy
and how there's a big push in therapy to sit down,
to go back through childhood to go what was your
relationship with your parents' attachment?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Da da da da da, and.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Not to necessarily blame that, but to understand yourself through
the prism of childhood relationships, which can make you look
at your parents in a way that can be very
very critical. I reckon too, that the reason that this
has blown up now is because Christmas is around the corner,
and most families, I would say, are going to have a.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Few empty seats.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Like whether it's a strange man, or it's conflict or
whatever it is, it's a pain point in so many
families and to the point about the boomer perspective or
the Oprah perspective.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I was at.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Tim mintionin He has a show and I went over
the weekend and he made this point about adulthood and
as you get older, you realize that your shit parents
his words, not mine, your ship parents were just the
victim of other shit parents, and they were the victim
of probably more shit parents. And parenting is just holding
a sieve and trying to keep the mental illness and
(26:46):
generational trauma out and let the good bits kind of
filter down, and we all fail at that. And I thought,
sometimes what's lacking in this And when I hear tiktoks
about parntal estrangement or whatever, what I do think is
lacking is a bit of compassion for how you know
your parents were parented or the experience. That's what happens
(27:07):
when you call them a toxic or narcissistic, that it
just means that there's no room for empathy in their
own structures and how they were raised.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
You're very right about the seasonal nature of this, because
I also saw today and I know it's my algorithm too.
Mel Robbins was there talking about how to deal with
parents who drive you crazy, and she was saying the
most important she would say this being the queen of
let them, but the most important thing is to realize
you can't change them like people who are really established
in their dynamic and maybe you're all day, every day
(27:36):
go my parents' marriage dynamic is so squog. Why can't
they see how screwed it is? Why weren't they changed?
It's like they are not going to change. The only
thing you can change is how you relate to it.
And I guess that's one of the things that brings
you right back to One of the ways I can
relate to it is to not to go to Christmas
dinner and be driven crazy by it. And then that's
why you're back in this whole suit.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah. And I also think it is a soup that
Oprah did have a hand in creating Jess. You mentioned
before that you're not sure whether she tackled family estrangement
head on her show, as we've established the authority on
her show much more than I am, because I was
not as convincing it at Chucking Siki's as you. But
(28:17):
the therapization of speech is something that came from Oprah,
so look at that word toxic that we mentioned that word.
The problem with that word is that it says that
someone is doing something to you. It's not a relationship dynamic.
It's that a person is toxic and therefore incapable of
growing or modifying their behavior in any way. And I
(28:40):
was just curious as to the extent to which Oprah
has pushed that word, So I did a search on
Oprah's website for that word. That word is used countless
times on her website, hundreds of times on her website.
In fact, headline's like three ways to ward off Toxic people,
is your family toxic, confront your toxic relationships. Toxic does
not mean that you can work with each other and
(29:02):
find common ground. It means that, like a toxic chemical,
it has to be per it has to be removed.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
And the one of you is right and one of
you is wrong. And one thing that I have learned
from listening to this is why we fight the mum
Maya podcast. And I've thought it recently. I was in
an interpersonal conflict situation and I thought if I sat
down with that therapist, she would not look me in
the eye and say, Jesse, you are so right, You
are so right, and she is so wrong. What she
(29:30):
would do is she would look at us and go,
this dynamic is slightly broken, and there are things that
both of you can do and look, as we kind
of said, like abuse neglect, put that to the side asolutely.
But in a lot of relationships it is a dynamic
rather than a sort of victim perpetrator mentality, which maybe
(29:51):
we've internalized a bit.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I agree. I also think though the question of whether
or not Oprah is culpable in this Your point is
so right, Amelia. But if you think about the time
that she was at her peak influence, and as I said,
forty eight million Americans were watching her, most of those
people would have had no access to therapy. Right, twenty
years ago, thirty years ago, we did not talk in
(30:13):
the way that we talk now about boundaries, about you know,
protecting your peace and all those things, and there's no
question that Oprah was part of that. Is that a
wholesale bad thing or a wholesale good thing? Right that
now a much broader slice of the population has access
to this kind of understanding of relationships. Maybe it's a
bad thing when it all gets filtered down with TikTok
(30:34):
hashtag or maybe it's a good thing because we're putting
up with less nonsense, but it's probably not either black horns.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I think that's a great point, and I should add
the disclaimer that I'm really mad at Oprah right now
because I don't know if you saw in the news,
but last week the Trump administration released a statement that
said that vaccines cause autism, that certain vaccines cause autism.
They do not, And the reason why it's releasing those
statements is because Trump's Department of Health is headed by
(31:03):
Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who is a renowned vaccine jenia,
who Oprah interviewed and spotlighted back in two thousand and
seven when he was just getting into his vaccine fight.
The same year she had Jenny McCarthy on her shop.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's why I knew you were going to say that,
because you know how some moments of television stick in
your head. I remember watching, whether it was live or
you know, repeat the episode of Jenny McCarthy. It's burned
on my brain.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So what happened in it? What was it?
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Like?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, I don't want to repeat such a danger,
but like.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Did it feel compelling, and it also was the first
time anyone had heard this.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
This woman saying I took my child to get their
vaccines and then this happened. So we all know that
that has been enormously discredited.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Apparently I dug deep on this as pera Vanity Fair
article about RFK Jr. He learned about this narrative from that.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So this is what's so interesting, and this is why
you know. I mean, we could go down a rabbit
hole on this, but there are lots of the most
pope podcasts in the world right now. Our CEOs are rogans,
all those guys who have all kinds of health experts
on where they just throw out these things and say
just asking questions. I always think about Jenny McCarthy. I
can pitch you what she was wearing sitting on that couch.
(32:21):
It was the beginning of a lot of stuff. But
could Oprah foreseen it.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
If we can blame her for everything.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We probably can't blame her for anything. I'll leave you
with this. I think we've all become very captive to
therapy speak, and I am not exempt from that. I
remember I was going through an interpersonal conflict, crazy as
it is to imagine that I would ever have conflict
with someone, but I did. And this person is someone
who was close to me but does not listen to
this podcast. And I spoke to a friend who is
(32:47):
a therapist about what to do, and I said, I
just feel I need to hold my boundaries with this person.
And my therapist friends said to me, respectfully, you were
full of shit. That mere is not just a kind
of like catch all for not having responsibilities or obligations
to other people and not being asked to see it
from theirspective. And she just gently told me that I
(33:09):
didn't know what I was talking about to say.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I laugh that we all need a friend who'll say, respectfully,
you're full of shits.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
After the Break, Australia voted for their favorite content creator
and we want to know, does it reveal a double standard.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Last week, the fifth annual TikTok Awards took place in Sydney,
and it looked like a total vibe.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Were your ladies invited?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I was not. Some of our work friends were ind
they went.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
It looked cool they but.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They had a really good time. They had my favorite song.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
And the Wiggles were dancing favorite dancing too. I can
get the get this great song.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
The legals were involved, and then Jonathan Bailey World Sex
Fifth Man showed up.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
I was he that?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I feel like he's everywhere.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He That was just very exciting.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
The biggest award is the Creator of the Year, and
this year it was awarded to a man I hadn't
heard of before. He goes by the name of Heveya
six seven six. He has two point eight million followers.
His actual name is Hevea Mantangi. He is the first
Pacific Islander to win the award, and even from the
(34:43):
Logis to the Arias. To have a Pacific Islander win
an award like that, I think was really exciting because
that demographic is incredibly underrepresented when it comes to the
arts entertainment. Absolutely something to celebrate. The award is decided
by a public vote, and of all the awards this year,
(35:04):
there were.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
More than six million votes.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Was broadcast across TikTok and everything like, there's an argument
that hey, more people watch this than probably the Logi's
the as I got.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Home that day and my daughter was like, did you
go to the TikTok Awards? Are you going to watch
the TikTok Awards? Like I struggle to explain to what
the oscars is. She knew exactly what this was, so
although she won't in two weeks time.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Over the weekend and out, Louder made a various observation
in the group that I have been desperate to discuss
with you both. She said, big fan of Heveya's content,
but she said it is centered around his kids.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
He's got four daughters. Do we feel differently.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
About fathers who share their kids online as opposed to mothers?
So a previous winner of Creator of the Year is
Indi Clinton. She has three kids and she shares a
lot about parenting. But there has been an increasing chorus
of criticism. It's getting louder and louder, particularly towards mothers
who share pictures videos of their kids online. Especially I
(36:10):
think in light of the upcoming social media band it's
kind of changed the tone a bit. But if you
go on Heveya's profile and read the comments and this
could be moderation, but you just don't see those types
of comments, right, what do we reckon? Are our standards
for men and women different?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Oh? I don't think so, and Father's let me think
about that. I mean, obviously I think they probably are.
But the question is why? And also the question is
is it something to do with the type of content
that dads share hair free?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Do you mean like funny songs.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Let's complaining about laundry or vomit or you know, things
like that and more? I saw on Haas six seven
six's page. That's not the right terminology, is it? As
Paige profile let's go profile on his profile that the
more recent content concerning his kids was a very cute
video of two of his daughters making a prank call
to their grandmother. Now that's extremely cute. It's also probably
(37:17):
not something that most moms are going to share. A
prank call is to her mother by her children.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
We know what the comments are going to say, and
that's so the content for context if you've never come
across his account, is prank's scaring them, but like in
a really wholesome way, or like you know, he's got
a little girl who's eating cereal and he comes over
and starts eating it, and she's just bamboozled by.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Again, a mother would never do that. No, she's the
one pouring the cereal.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Very light and it is genuinely funny, like a very
very good context.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So there are quite a few of these guys on
the internet dad's having a good time with their kids
and making lots of muoler out of it, but with
seemingly little criticism. And I'm here for it. I think
that although we all know, and I'm sure that one
of us has plenty of stats about it, it's not
great to show your kids all over social media. However,
(38:16):
if children are the center of your life and parenting
is most of your world, seeing content based around it
is really important. I think, like I just do. I
think that it reflects a reality, and ideally you want
a diverse section of that that shows the joy and
the fun and the frustration and the hardships, because that's
what parenting is, right, It's all those things. But these
(38:38):
guys are all what we know is Disneyland dads, And
there are plenty of mothers I know who are driven
crazy by this stuff because they're like, I'm there crying
on TikTok, not me personally crying on TikTok because my
child's having a meltdown and I'm trying to get them
to brush their teeth and go to school, and I'm
(38:58):
expressing the difficulty of that. And then the Disneyland dad
is just he's, you know, in the traditional model, he's
back from work and he's like, let's go to the
park kids, or I'm taking you all out this weekend.
It's particularly pervasive in separated families. The Disneyland dad idea
that dad's always a good time and mum's always doing
the hard work. And some of this content falls into
(39:20):
those stereotypical categories. But I think that ideally you've got both.
I don't think that all parenting content should just be
shiny and joyful and happy dances, because that's not what
parenting's like. But also we can all see the problems
with kids having meltdowns.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Yeah, or is this indicative of there's a lot of
stats about the division of millennial parenting and how millennial
dads are doing more parenting than you know, ever before
in history.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
As it does get more equally a millennial dad.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
While looking after, they're doing more parenting, spending more hands
on time with their kids.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
It's not equal, let's not pretend it is. But is
it sort of.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Starting to get their domestic work, so it's another thing
and it's not fun to film. Yeah, exactly right, that's
not so fun to film. But as it gets more equal,
are we going to see dads share more and more
content Because even the meltdown or the getting your kid
to brush their teeth with hove might be experiencing that too.
He just chooses not to get his phone out and
film it, right, And so when I looked at his content,
(40:27):
I went, I've got no issue with people sharing images
of their kids online.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's something that I just.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Go, I reckon, you love your kid more than I
love your kid, and I reckon, you know what's best
for your kid, Like I just trust you know your kids,
you know how comfortable they are with it. His kids
are also a little bit older. He has one who's
young like a toddler, but they're very consenting and involved
and know they're being filmed, which I think makes people
feel different. The content that I must say stops me
(40:55):
sometimes is when there is a child who appears not
to be enjoying being filmed. Often it's an adolescent who
is in the background. And I'm talking content creators. I
think it's very different if you're on a private profile.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
But slent teenagers okay, on.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
A way, every photo album is full of Salentine ages.
He didn't want their photo taken.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
That I don't love, and I must say that.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
And I guess I don't have an answer as to
how you talk about this stage of parenting, but meltdowns, screaming,
worst moments.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Getting the camera out.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
I get it. I get that you need solidarity. I
get that you might feel like you need help you've
got no one to turn to. But I think about
the dignity of that child, and that sometimes does make
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
And he doesn't do that. I agree with that, Jesse,
But I think Holly said something really important before that
I want to reiterate and highlight, which is you said
that people share this content both to feel less alone themselves,
but also it makes other people feel less alone. And
I'm a lot of it that has been lost in
the moral panic about sharing children online. As you said, Holly,
(42:02):
we have lots of stats and facts about why you
shouldn't be sharing your children online, say many experts, but
that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about
the fact that for many parents this is a bit
of a lifeline for them, both the posting and the
consuming of the content. And I'm wondering as more men
get into the act of public parenting sharenting online, maybe
(42:25):
we'll all calm down about it a little bit, because
when both men and women are doing it and it's
not just seen as something that women do, maybe we'll
all start to be a little bit more accepting of
the impulse.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I hope so, because one of the things that I
think is one of the reasons why women I mean,
and I know there are family lots of female family
creators out there who do lots of fun stuff on
the Internet, not suggesting that there aren't, but you are
more likely to see the stuff we were just talking about.
The meltdown. So I saw one from a very popular
family creator when I was before I came in here,
where she'd filmed herself taking the iPad off her I
(42:59):
want to say, five year old and her five year
old having a full on meltdown about it and this
person had three million followers and it was uncomfortable to
watch for the reasons you've already spelled out, Jesse, but
also I think, I mean, I'm obviously way beyond that
stage now, but if I was back where I was once,
it would have made me feel really good, not good
(43:20):
like as in, haha, your life sucks like mine does that?
Like I thought I was the only terrible parent who
sometimes lets my kid have the iPad too long and
then I get punished for it by the awful meltdown
they have when I take it off them. It would
have made me feel less alone. And I think the
problem is if women's family content was all just like
Disneyland dadding like having great times doing challenges, a lot
(43:42):
of the commentary would be like, how do you have
time to learn dances with your children? Like my life
isn't that easy? Don't you have to get them to school?
Aren't you did it? Like the judgment that would come
at them and probably from other women that would be
along the lines of basically must be nice, would be overwhelming,
you know, And I think that that's interesting because I
hope that as more dads as sharing family content, I
(44:03):
hope they are doing it while they're actively parenting. I know,
you know. I was just thinking when you were talking
about that before, Jesse, that a hundred years ago and
my kids were babies. Brent took time off work to
do the first year of parental leave right, and he
used to make these ridiculous videos with the kids. He
did one of Matilda like dangling from a baby harness
with the music from Mission Impossible behind it, like do
(44:24):
do do do do? And he tickled himself so hard,
like weightlifting with babies, and he wasn't TikTok didn't exist.
And I know that some of my mother's group friends
would be like, how does he have time to do that?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I was like, I.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Don't know, but it seems to be working for him.
But I feel like if that was a mom, she'd
be getting a lot of don't you have something better
to do?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Or is it just?
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Can content be a form of play? And that's a
dopamine him, yeah, yeah, and a play for both. And
if they both appear to be enjoying themselves and there
just happens to be a camera there, then maybe we
are kind of comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I think as soon as your kids say stop, stop,
wonder what happens with you? I've got if you've just
won Content Creator of the Year of your kids say,
I don't wonder. Do any dances today, Danny, And he's like,
have you seen this trophy? Have you seen this trophy?
We will be dancing.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Well.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
This has been fun. Friends. Thank you out louders for
having us in your ears. A reminder that you can
see this whole thing on YouTube and why wouldn't you
want to? We're just lovely to look at that at
all times. A massive thank you for being here with us,
and a massive thank you to our team for helping
us put the show together. Jesse, have we got something
to tell everybody? What are you wearing?
Speaker 4 (45:38):
We have a very exciting announcement in the lead up
to Christmas, which is if you are watching us on
YouTube or if you've seen our social videos today, I
am wearing my Mummy out Loud T shirt right and
we have discounted our merch I believe till the sixth
of December, because if you order before then you will
(45:58):
get it in time for Christmas. So these T shirts,
which is the.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Only thing that's like covering my bump.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
At the moment, you're modeling. The most popular design she
has a puffer fish on it. There are a few
different ones, but the poffer fish has proved most popular.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It's so good for like you know, when you want
a graphic printed tea to throw on to go to
the beach or whatever. It's just perfect and it's like
really good quality. Fifty bucks for a t shirt, twenty
dollars for a tote. These are with tots are like Chambra.
They are very fancy. They are the ultimate gift for
the out louder in your life. We often meet out
(46:32):
louders where they're with their mum, or they're with their friends,
or it's like a point of connection between people. Chris
Kringle gift, Christmas Day gift, whatever it is, Jump onto
our website. There is a link in our show notes
Mum may are out Loud Merch cheapest it's ever been
and yes, the sale is on right this second until December.
The sixth link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
To shop Bye
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Monday, December the first.
I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Amelia Leuster and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And here's what's made our agenda for today. Oprah Wimfrey
is getting all kinds of attention for her big special
about going no contact with your family, But isn't it
all kind of Oprah's fault?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
And the Prime Minister got married on the weekend. We
have some not so scoulous gossip from the event, and
I also want to tell you why his wedding passes
the pub test.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
And the Creator of the Year at the TikTok Awards
is a beloved father of four who shares his kids
regularly online. Are we harder on women who feature their
kids in content or is it just the type of
content these creators are making?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But first, in case you missed it, and probably did
because there were only eighty guests, the Prime Minister got
married on the weekend. Anthony Alberanizi married Jody Hayden at
the Lodge in Canberra. The wedding took place in the
afternoon at about four twenty pm on Saturday afternoon. This
song signed Sealed, delivered by Stevie Wonder was heard wafting
(01:28):
from the lodge as they walked back down the aisle
together after exchanging their vows. Now, I think this is
lovely me too.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
My mom asked me if I was invited, and I was, Mother,
you vastly overestimate my importance and influence on going.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
A lot of front benches, a lot of labor front
fenches weren't even invited. It was very select Apparently they
had originally decided they were going to invite about three
hundred people, but then they whistled it down to about eighty,
and so it meant that a lot of big labor
figures were not there. Tanya Plibasec, for instance, not invited.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
I was very interested in that because you know what,
the three hundred mark they just went invite.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
All of them. Weddings are political.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All of them.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Weddings are political at.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
The best of times. When you are the PM, they
are especially political. And eight years of smallish wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It is hard and I think that the who do
you invite from your workplace is always an incredibly contentious question,
and as you say, it's extra hard when the people
you're dealing with are literally politicians. So let me just
run through who was there? Who wasn't there? On the
label left contingent. You had Katie Gallagher, you had Penny Wong,
you had Jin Chalmers, you had Richard Miles, but not invited,
(02:36):
Like I said, Tanya Pubisek wasn't there. A lot of
other cabinet ministers were not there. One nice little invite
that I saw was that some of Albo's friends from
growing up in social housing made the cut.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Well, I always think about weddings in terms of almost rings, right,
So you go, okay, I've got my close friends, I've
got these and then you kind of get to a
point and you go, you're too far outside the circle.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
This doesn't work.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And sometimes it's easier to exclude a whole faction of
people rather than pick and shoose action being the word yep,
faction being the wed in sitting down and doing his
They clearly went our line is state premieres.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
None, only one of them, and I'm sure he's got.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Some mates there, but he went. You can't invite New
South Wales and not invite Queensland.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
You can't.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I love that they kept it small because it makes
it seem very real. Can you imagine if this was
like a Trump era American political wedding, we'd have like
a gold plated dance floor and carriages aronomy, and the
King would have been invited, and then there would have
been a kerfuffle about whether or not he was going
to come. I think he hit the tone right, Do
we agree? Do we think he got because imagine the
(03:40):
drama we're going to talk about that, But imagine the
pressure on getting it right when you're marrying the Prime
Minister and.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Waking up, rolling over on the morning of your wedding
day and checking the news and going, please, please, please
please don't make a war have broken out, like, just
make it a quiet news day so that my wedding
doesn't look tone deaf, Amelia, Did I miss it?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Did we know this was coming?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
No one knew what was coming. It was really kept
under wraps. Apparently the Prime Minister was being interviewed last
week by Behind the News, remember btn that kid's news show,
and the kids were asking him all sorts of questions,
and then the principal asked him if he was going
to get married anytime soon, and there was something in
the response that did make them apparently wonder. But it
(04:25):
was very secret, and in part this was because there
were evidently some security concerns around it, and it's partly
been speculated that's why it wasn't at Kurabilly House, which
of course has the water views. No offense camera, but
it does have the water views, and that's because the
lodge has very high walls, so they figured it would
be easier to control and monitor for security reason.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Apparently, when people did start getting the wind of it
after that principle, the Catholic school principle made everybody's antenne
I go up, as Amelia said. The Herald reports that
news editors across the nation were warned off running any
preview stories under security fears, and the ones who pushed
back received a follow up phone call from security agencies
(05:06):
saying don't you dare, And it seems that they listened.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
It probably deserves the wedding without protests outside.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It also had no phones, which is very modern of them.
There was no social media hashtag that they asked you
to use on Instagram or anything. They did say, you
have to leave your phones at the door.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
So the dress would have been like there was going
to be a spotlight on the dress, right because she
could have like they.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Probably could have afforded.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I don't know what are the fancy brands versaci, I.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Don't do you remember Jesse when Zoe Foster Blake wore
Gucci to the Logis once and the world went mad.
Australia went mad and went what there are no Australian
design is good enough for you? Now you're so fancy, Like,
imagine if Zoe Foster Blake can't wear Gucci to the logis.
Imagine if the Prime Minister's wife had chosen an international
(05:54):
brand to get marrieded so she is the level of
things she would have had to show.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
She had to wear Australian. But at the same time,
Australian designers are rightfully pricey because it's made here and
materials and dah da da. So she had shoot an
Australian designer who wasn't expensive and wasn't flaunting wealth and saying.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I studded with diamonds or like it was. It was
Romance was born, which is a very cool, beautiful, very
very bit energy right, very edgy, very cool. It's kind
of an The thing I love about them is that
Albow is such a gen xer. He's an old gen xer.
He's sixty two, but like he still likes to hold
(06:37):
onto his like I'm from the Inner West and I
go to the pub and they had beers with their
faces on them.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, their first day was a brewery, so that was
a little bit of a throwback.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And he DJs as we know. So it's like romance
was born. Is like, it's cool, but it's not twenty
five year old influencer cool, right. I think they nailed that.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
I was also interested in the guess list because my
first question was was Kyle Sandalance it? And the reason
I needed to know was because Albo was famously invited
to Kyle's wedding. He went with Chris Min and I thought,
it's always awkward when you've been invited to that wedding,
which was very trumpy, and in some ways.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That was that was wedding the Albow could have had
if he was a different human.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
That's why he needed them to publish eighty guests so
that Kyle got the memo you were number eighty one. Yep,
it was just that you didn't quite make.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The dog wore a dress. What did we think about that?
Loved it because there was a five year old flower
girl who was Jody's niece. Yep, and she and the
dog wore matching Yes, so I didn't know that Toto
was a dressed kind of dog.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Anyone who has a dog that they can train to
behave and perform a duty on their wedding day deserves
a medal.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Apparently Toto got a bit of stage fright. No, apparently
it was a bit touch and go going to make
it down the aisle.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
They didn't have best man, best women, didn't do any
of that. They just had themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I approve of. I'm on the record as saying wedding
parties of control.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
I have a big question. This is my new Roman Empire.
They're going on a honeymoon in Australia.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Right are they going to carry out to that? They
went overseas last month or quite recently to supposedly plan
the wedding, so you know, it was moons constant.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So they're going on a honeymoon. It has to be Australia,
I suppose, Right, is there honeymoon. They want to go
somewhere fancy, but at the same time can't be too fancy.
All I do is think about they are because where they.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Want to go blow their security. Where they want to
go is Qualia.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Where they do have to go, it's probably a caravan
park or.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I went, oh, they could go there.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I think they could this year.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's stunning.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's not no ways safe labor. They need to go.
It's Queensland they're going to.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
That's the rumor is that it's North Queensland. So where
in North.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Queens because the politically Queensland is a bit more of
a sort of like oscillating state in terms of it's
party preferences. I think it's going to be Queensland. But yeah,
where is anyone's guess.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
This is your deep telling you that Magnetic Islands.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Oh they're going to Golsid Island.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
They're going to go. That's no, that's too shy. I
think it's Gold Coast.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
No, nothing wrong with the Gold Coast. But they've got
to go somewhere remote.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
And he's going to want to do a DJ set
somewhere he.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Gets to turn his phone off. This is what I
said to Brent. I was like, imagine being Jodi, who
has her own job and all those things. Imagine being
married to the Prime minister, like a you've got to
work out whether or not you know your drinks are
too expensive or whatever at the wedding. But also does
he ever get to turn his phone off on the honeymoon,
even for twenty four hours? What did they good?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Question?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Because I think it would be tough being married.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Not right twenty four hours.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I think I muld have waited till he got voted out.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And it's an interesting part in the cycle, right because
by the time there's another election, they will have forgotten
about the wedding, right, they had to time it to
kind of go timing.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He had a good year, He had a good year.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
I think this time of year he maybe waited for
a few foreign policy things to chill.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Like I think they're watching the sunset and broom right now.
I think they are. I think then they're on a camel.
They't like they've got all that. I reckon, we'll get
one pitch. So I saw this on my feed. I
must have had a tingling sense that Albo had news
for me. And there's Abon it just said married. It
(10:36):
was very cool. One picture married. I think we'll get
one sunset and broom picture.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Now I'm going far north Queensland.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
That's my money.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Australia's having a good weekend. Not only did we have
a very cool prime ministerial wedding, DBC reported it thought
it was very tasteful.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Oh I know, look at that.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
They obviously hadn't seen the matching beer cans. Anyway, not
only do we have that, but we also have the
man that the entire universe is pointing at and saying,
this is what we need more of, and it is
one Robert Irwin. On the weekend there was an article
in the New York Times, if you don't mind, called
(11:14):
Robert Irwin is actually that nice? And in it, journalist
Ashley Spencer writes, fans and there are many, have praised
mister Irwin as a beacon of positive masculinity. For his vulnerability,
he makes no attempt to appear cool or aloof. He
often throws his head back in full throated laughter, and
he gleefully celebrates everyone around him. So we have arrived
(11:38):
at a place, friends, where one of the most adored
men in the world. He just won Dancing with the Stars.
He's everywhere you look. Grew up in a zoo on
the Sunshine Coast, Jesse. What is it about Robert Irwin
that is the beacon of positive masculinity?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Man?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
When I was doing a bit of work with Channel
tent through the project, he obviously had started hosting I'm
a Celebrity and had come up on He'd done a
few stints and stuff on the project. I never heard
a single bad word about that much. He was universally loved.
They all said that that is.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Such a good question, Amelia.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I was on my best behavior hearing that information, and
they were like, he's just so charismatic and happy all
the time. I was like, he is just so good
at what he does, and he was spotted and they
kind of went, this man is actually talent. And when
he went on to do I'm a Celebrity, I didn't
(12:39):
know this, but he said to them, I'm sure I
read this in the New York Times article that he
only agreed to it if they agreed to stop serving
native wildlife and it's eating challenges. So he had his
light line where he just went, yeah, I'll do it,
but just don't do that. The other detail in that
profile was did you see the footage of Prince William
wish him good luck on dancing with.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
The sin about the universal adoration? Royalty is beaming in
to wish him good luck. The New York Times is writing, gosh,
is Amelia, you have an understanding of what Americans like
about Australias. What's going on here?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, it's interesting. There was a quote that stood out
to me, and the article came from I think his mum.
She said he's what Tom Cruise wishes he was. And
the reason I thought that was interesting is because he
seems genuinely relaxed in front of the camera, Yes, which
(13:36):
I think we take to mean he's a good guy
and he sounds like a good guy, But he does
telegraph genuine relaxation in front of in front of a camera,
and it's like almost a movie star quality, which is
I think why his mom bought in Tom Cruise.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Do you think we like that because that's such a
good point. If you can appear relaxed in front of
the camera, it makes you quite likable. Do you think
that's because it kind of suggests you have nothing to.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Happen yeah, I think so. I think we sort of
see it as a proxy for someone who's honest and
reliable and upstanding. And then I was thinking about why
he would be relaxed, and it's because he he's been
in front of cameras since he was born. I was
reminded in this article that he was filmed as a
newborn in the delivery room because of course his father
was already a celebrity. And then just a few weeks
(14:18):
after that there was this big uproar because his father
was holding him in one arm while feeding a crocodile
in the other. So if you're already having that experience
in front of the camera when you're four weeks old,
you're probably able to convey a lot of relaxation when
you get older.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So interesting though, isn't it, Because for some kids who've
grown up with that kind of fame following them around,
particularly a big law like with Steve Owen, who obviously
tragically died so young. You can go one of two ways.
It can either make you very private and very like
I hate these people who always trying to get into
my life, or to your point, it can make you
(14:55):
just relax and see it for what it is in
terms of doing good with that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
It's like Prince Harry is sort of the first example.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That's why Prince William called he was like a word
Harry for me.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I want a parenting book written by Terry. I think
Terry knows exactly what she's doing, what a brilliant mother.
I cannot watch Robert Owen do anything without a tear
in my eye because I think about how proud his
father would be, So I think that's an element to it.
And also Bindiowen one ten years ago dancing with the Stars,
Did she yes? Ten years ago? And now Robert Owen
(15:28):
has won? Is it also because Americans can lay a
little bit of claim through Terry, like, yes, he's Australian,
but he's also half theirs, so they can kind of
he's like mel Gibson, but better exactly without the controversy.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Clearly we need both a parenting book and a ballroom
dancing guide by Terry.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I'm sorry, also a third book, a marriage book, because
you know the clip that goes viral on the internet
every six months or so depicts Terry and Steve being
interviewed and the way that Terry looks at Steve has
almost become an internet meme because she looks at him
in such a sort of adoring and loving way. So
Terry just needs to advise us.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
All clearly with Terry Erwindo in a moment, is life
just too stressful to have difficult family relationships?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
As well?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
The Oprah specials that sparked a whole lot of finger pointing.
Everyone is talking about an episode of the Oprah Winfrey Show,
which makes me feel fifteen years old. Ope sit a
special on her podcast, which is actually a whole TV
(16:36):
show on the YouTube platform. It's very funny what gets
called a podcast now. And it's exactly like the old
Oprah Winfrey Show, this particular.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Super soul conversations.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's different.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
This is the Oprah Show. And so I haven't watched many,
so I don't know if they're all the same. Actually
I didn't watch it. I listened to it, but I
should have watched it because it was made for watching.
In that just like the old Oprah Show, there's a
studio audience who will have some experience in the topic.
There's a panel of experts. So she had three psychologists
who had expertise and had written books about it. And
then you've got a a handpicked group of people who
(17:08):
will have a story to tell you. And this topic
was all about family estrangement and particularly how the no
contact contagion has taken over TikTok and people's lives. Oprah
says she was inspired to do it by the story
of a nameless friend. This is what she said, A.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Friend might call me recently distraught over the fact that
her grown daughter, whom she thought she had a really
great relationship with and had recently just gone to dinner with,
center a message saying I'm no longer going to be
in contact with you. Please do not try to reach me.
(17:48):
She thought something had happened to her child, that perhaps
she'd been kidnapped, and realized shortly after sending authorities to
see if her daughter was okay, that it was true
that her daughter no longer wanted to have contact with her.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So after that story, said she was inspired to do this,
found that the no contact thing was massive, and so
we end up with this special where we get all
the experts. There are lots of stories on it. Some
of them are amazing, I'll tell you later. But some
people got a little bit sniffy about the idea of
Oprah being like, Oh, there's this thing called family estrangement
and it's a trend now and all the young people
are doing it. What's wrong with the young people? In particular,
(18:28):
this conservative commentator called Tanya Cazal, who is very much
about family rehabilitation, I guess you'd say, posted this instagram
that got quite a lot attraction of like why is
Oprah surprised about this?
Speaker 6 (18:41):
So now Oprah is shocked by the aftermath of estrangement
after being one of the biggest voices pushing it for decades,
Oprah the biggest plot twist in the entire family estrangement crisis.
While everyone is applauding her for finally discussing estrangement, very
few look at the iron in the contradiction. Oprah was
one of these strongest voices pushing the normalization of family
cut offs and not by accident, publicly, repeatedly, and openly,
(19:03):
and this started as far back as the nineties.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So Oprah obviously was one of the first TV shows
and it's hard to overstate the influence of her at
the time. Forty eight million Americans used to watch that
show a week like that is wild, and she was
very much responsible for a lot of the mainstreaming of
the therapy talk that we're all very conversant in. Now,
what did we think about this? Let's blame Oprah for
(19:27):
exactly what she's talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Can I ask you, I didn't realize that that commentator
that we just heard from is quote unquote conservative. Is
that because there's like a political overlay onto this conservative?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I guess I probably mean she's like a Christian conservative
family values person. Oh, but I think there definitely is,
because I think that the conservative overlay on this issue
is that the TikTok snowflake generation can't deal with conflict,
and that's why suddenly they're all hashtag not that's not
me saying that's the stereotype, And that's why the hashtag
(20:02):
no contact has become a little bit of a culture
war issue in and that it's sort of seen as
a bit of a generational schism.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Well, I'm so glad you raise that, because I do
have to admit I look at this a bit cynically
from Oprah's perspective. Here, If you think about the fact
that there might be a business reason for her to
suddenly cotton onto the dangers of family estrangement. I think
it's got to do with the age of her fan base.
So she's been seeking a younger audience for a really
long time now. I saw a twenty twelve New York
(20:33):
Times article called Oprah at a Crossroads twenty twelve, which
said that she was worried about her audience aging out
of her show and not being interested anymore. The median
age of her audience then was forty nine, So if
you do the maths on that, that means that her
fan base aging out of being mothers and aging into
being grandmothers, and they are the people who do not
(20:55):
want to be estranged from this quote unquote younger generation.
It's a business move on Oprah's part.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, okay, because the one thing I kept asking hearing
that criticism was hang on, did.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Oprah push estrangement? And I consumed a lot of in
the nineties.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Each of your experience as well, because I basically watched
it when I was chucking a sicky and came from school.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I chucked a lot of sicky got it, so, you
know a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
So I would do my doctor film, my Oprah on
my Ready Steady Cooks, and I didn't do feel, I
don't know, really big on Oprah and every now and
then you just got a really good one. And while
she popularized terms maybe like toxic and I think narcissism
and those sorts of things and interviewed psychologists, I wouldn't
(21:45):
say she was encouraging people to go no contact. She
was about protecting your peace, and she had obviously had
really complicated family dynamics that she was honest about. But
what I struggle with when it comes to talking about
family estrangement as a cultural trend is that.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
It isn't one thing.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
It is millions of painful stories that vary from abuse
to neglect to maybe it is something that your eyes
would see as small. But to lump them all in
together and to suggest that rehabilitation is ideal for everyone
is also sugarcoating it, Like I think that it's unrealistic,
(22:30):
And so I find that as a cultural war issue,
I'm I find it irritating.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. So Oprah starts
this by saying that one third of Americans now say
that they are a strange from a family member. Now
that could mean their sister, their uncle. It doesn't have
to be in their parents. But that is a lot
and there is no question that this is a big trend,
like hashtag no contact on TikTok, lots of advice out
there about how to do it, how to pull it off,
(22:57):
people like get ready with me while I go and
tell my mum no contact. And also from the other side,
parents who've had this happen to them, their kild's got
no contact, making a lot of content about it, which
obviously is new in Oprah world. To your point about
why she would do it, Amelia, to me, it seems
like a perfect classic Oprah topic because you can get
all the sides in the room and have them talk
(23:18):
about it. It's not like Oprah was going, hey, I
think it's great, or hey I think it's bad. She
was just saying, let's talk about it. And the only
thing I found disingenuous is she did keep saying, oh,
in my day, we just had to put up with
all this stuff, which is a very common sort of
boomerish argument. But I want to play you a little
grab from one of the experts on this panel. She
(23:41):
is a woman called doctor Lindsay Gibson, and she's written
books about emotionally immature parents. And basically the argument here
because as you've said, Jesse, it is so complex why
people estrange their parents or decide not to talk to
them anymore, And everyone listening to us right now would
have such different experiences of their parental situation. But Dr
Lindsay Gibson kind of says that part of this is
(24:02):
about a generation of people who are kind of therapized
and understand stand a little bit about how to protect
their emotional piece and people who don't. But her other
argument is is that life has just become too stressful
for difficult relationships. This is what she said.
Speaker 7 (24:17):
We don't have the energy to put into relationships where
someone is going to be continually pushing back and making
us feel that what is going on inside us is
not valid.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Or is not true in some way.
Speaker 7 (24:34):
This old way of the respect for the role itself,
I think, for the role of the parent or the
authority figure thy mother.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 7 (24:45):
Yes, it says honor them, It doesn't say obey them,
agree with them, do whatever they say, make them the
most important person in the relationship. So those days of
the role trumping everything else are gone.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
People do not.
Speaker 7 (25:01):
Have the energy now to sustain a relationship that is
drained or difficult or constantly conflectual.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
She started that point by saying life has become too stressful,
like in general, too much is being astronomos all all
the time, and so our batteries are drained when it
comes to dealing with complicated relationships, and that that's part
of why there's a growing trend to simplify. What do
you think about that?
Speaker 4 (25:30):
I think that's an interesting point. I also have seen
a lot of commentary recently about the structure of therapy
and how there's a big push in therapy to sit down,
to go back through childhood to go what was your
relationship with your parents' attachment?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Da da da da da, and.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Not to necessarily blame that, but to understand yourself through
the prism of childhood relationships, which can make you look
at your parents in a way that can be very
very critical. I reckon too, that the reason that this
has blown up now is because Christmas is around the corner,
and most families, I would say, are going to have a.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Few empty seats.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Like whether it's a strange man, or it's conflict or
whatever it is, it's a pain point in so many
families and to the point about the boomer perspective or
the Oprah perspective.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
I was at.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Tim mintionin He has a show and I went over
the weekend and he made this point about adulthood and
as you get older, you realize that your shit parents
his words, not mine, your ship parents were just the
victim of other shit parents, and they were the victim
of probably more shit parents. And parenting is just holding
a sieve and trying to keep the mental illness and
(26:46):
generational trauma out and let the good bits kind of
filter down, and we all fail at that. And I thought,
sometimes what's lacking in this And when I hear tiktoks
about parntal estrangement or whatever, what I do think is
lacking is a bit of compassion for how you know
your parents were parented or the experience. That's what happens
(27:07):
when you call them a toxic or narcissistic, that it
just means that there's no room for empathy in their
own structures and how they were raised.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
You're very right about the seasonal nature of this, because
I also saw today and I know it's my algorithm too.
Mel Robbins was there talking about how to deal with
parents who drive you crazy, and she was saying the
most important she would say this being the queen of
let them, but the most important thing is to realize
you can't change them like people who are really established
in their dynamic and maybe you're all day, every day
(27:36):
go my parents' marriage dynamic is so squog. Why can't
they see how screwed it is? Why weren't they changed?
It's like they are not going to change. The only
thing you can change is how you relate to it.
And I guess that's one of the things that brings
you right back to One of the ways I can
relate to it is to not to go to Christmas
dinner and be driven crazy by it. And then that's
why you're back in this whole suit.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah. And I also think it is a soup that
Oprah did have a hand in creating Jess. You mentioned
before that you're not sure whether she tackled family estrangement
head on her show, as we've established the authority on
her show much more than I am, because I was
not as convincing it at Chucking Siki's as you. But
(28:17):
the therapization of speech is something that came from Oprah,
so look at that word toxic that we mentioned that word.
The problem with that word is that it says that
someone is doing something to you. It's not a relationship dynamic.
It's that a person is toxic and therefore incapable of
growing or modifying their behavior in any way. And I
(28:40):
was just curious as to the extent to which Oprah
has pushed that word, So I did a search on
Oprah's website for that word. That word is used countless
times on her website, hundreds of times on her website.
In fact, headline's like three ways to ward off Toxic people,
is your family toxic, confront your toxic relationships. Toxic does
not mean that you can work with each other and
(29:02):
find common ground. It means that, like a toxic chemical,
it has to be per it has to be removed.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
And the one of you is right and one of
you is wrong. And one thing that I have learned
from listening to this is why we fight the mum
Maya podcast. And I've thought it recently. I was in
an interpersonal conflict situation and I thought if I sat
down with that therapist, she would not look me in
the eye and say, Jesse, you are so right, You
are so right, and she is so wrong. What she
(29:30):
would do is she would look at us and go,
this dynamic is slightly broken, and there are things that
both of you can do and look, as we kind
of said, like abuse neglect, put that to the side asolutely.
But in a lot of relationships it is a dynamic
rather than a sort of victim perpetrator mentality, which maybe
(29:51):
we've internalized a bit.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I agree. I also think though the question of whether
or not Oprah is culpable in this Your point is
so right, Amelia. But if you think about the time
that she was at her peak influence, and as I said,
forty eight million Americans were watching her, most of those
people would have had no access to therapy. Right, twenty
years ago, thirty years ago, we did not talk in
(30:13):
the way that we talk now about boundaries, about you know,
protecting your peace and all those things, and there's no
question that Oprah was part of that. Is that a
wholesale bad thing or a wholesale good thing? Right that
now a much broader slice of the population has access
to this kind of understanding of relationships. Maybe it's a
bad thing when it all gets filtered down with TikTok
(30:34):
hashtag or maybe it's a good thing because we're putting
up with less nonsense, but it's probably not either black horns.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I think that's a great point, and I should add
the disclaimer that I'm really mad at Oprah right now
because I don't know if you saw in the news,
but last week the Trump administration released a statement that
said that vaccines cause autism, that certain vaccines cause autism.
They do not, And the reason why it's releasing those
statements is because Trump's Department of Health is headed by
(31:03):
Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who is a renowned vaccine jenia,
who Oprah interviewed and spotlighted back in two thousand and
seven when he was just getting into his vaccine fight.
The same year she had Jenny McCarthy on her shop.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
That's why I knew you were going to say that,
because you know how some moments of television stick in
your head. I remember watching, whether it was live or
you know, repeat the episode of Jenny McCarthy. It's burned
on my brain.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So what happened in it? What was it?
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Like?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I mean, I don't want to repeat such a danger,
but like.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Did it feel compelling, and it also was the first
time anyone had heard this.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
This woman saying I took my child to get their
vaccines and then this happened. So we all know that
that has been enormously discredited.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Apparently I dug deep on this as pera Vanity Fair
article about RFK Jr. He learned about this narrative from that.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So this is what's so interesting, and this is why
you know. I mean, we could go down a rabbit
hole on this, but there are lots of the most
pope podcasts in the world right now. Our CEOs are rogans,
all those guys who have all kinds of health experts
on where they just throw out these things and say
just asking questions. I always think about Jenny McCarthy. I
can pitch you what she was wearing sitting on that couch.
(32:21):
It was the beginning of a lot of stuff. But
could Oprah foreseen it.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
If we can blame her for everything.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We probably can't blame her for anything. I'll leave you
with this. I think we've all become very captive to
therapy speak, and I am not exempt from that. I
remember I was going through an interpersonal conflict, crazy as
it is to imagine that I would ever have conflict
with someone, but I did. And this person is someone
who was close to me but does not listen to
this podcast. And I spoke to a friend who is
(32:47):
a therapist about what to do, and I said, I
just feel I need to hold my boundaries with this person.
And my therapist friends said to me, respectfully, you were
full of shit. That mere is not just a kind
of like catch all for not having responsibilities or obligations
to other people and not being asked to see it
from theirspective. And she just gently told me that I
(33:09):
didn't know what I was talking about to say.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I laugh that we all need a friend who'll say, respectfully,
you're full of shits.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
After the Break, Australia voted for their favorite content creator
and we want to know, does it reveal a double standard.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Last week, the fifth annual TikTok Awards took place in Sydney,
and it looked like a total vibe.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Were your ladies invited?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I was not. Some of our work friends were ind
they went.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
It looked cool they but.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
They had a really good time. They had my favorite song.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
And the Wiggles were dancing favorite dancing too. I can
get the get this great song.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
The legals were involved, and then Jonathan Bailey World Sex
Fifth Man showed up.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
I was he that?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I feel like he's everywhere.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He That was just very exciting.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
The biggest award is the Creator of the Year, and
this year it was awarded to a man I hadn't
heard of before. He goes by the name of Heveya
six seven six. He has two point eight million followers.
His actual name is Hevea Mantangi. He is the first
Pacific Islander to win the award, and even from the
(34:43):
Logis to the Arias. To have a Pacific Islander win
an award like that, I think was really exciting because
that demographic is incredibly underrepresented when it comes to the
arts entertainment. Absolutely something to celebrate. The award is decided
by a public vote, and of all the awards this year,
(35:04):
there were.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
More than six million votes.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
Was broadcast across TikTok and everything like, there's an argument
that hey, more people watch this than probably the Logi's
the as I got.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Home that day and my daughter was like, did you
go to the TikTok Awards? Are you going to watch
the TikTok Awards? Like I struggle to explain to what
the oscars is. She knew exactly what this was, so
although she won't in two weeks time.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Over the weekend and out, Louder made a various observation
in the group that I have been desperate to discuss
with you both. She said, big fan of Heveya's content,
but she said it is centered around his kids.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
He's got four daughters. Do we feel differently.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
About fathers who share their kids online as opposed to mothers?
So a previous winner of Creator of the Year is
Indi Clinton. She has three kids and she shares a
lot about parenting. But there has been an increasing chorus
of criticism. It's getting louder and louder, particularly towards mothers
who share pictures videos of their kids online. Especially I
(36:10):
think in light of the upcoming social media band it's
kind of changed the tone a bit. But if you
go on Heveya's profile and read the comments and this
could be moderation, but you just don't see those types
of comments, right, what do we reckon? Are our standards
for men and women different?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Oh? I don't think so, and Father's let me think
about that. I mean, obviously I think they probably are.
But the question is why? And also the question is
is it something to do with the type of content
that dads share hair free?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Do you mean like funny songs.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Let's complaining about laundry or vomit or you know, things
like that and more? I saw on Haas six seven
six's page. That's not the right terminology, is it? As
Paige profile let's go profile on his profile that the
more recent content concerning his kids was a very cute
video of two of his daughters making a prank call
to their grandmother. Now that's extremely cute. It's also probably
(37:17):
not something that most moms are going to share. A
prank call is to her mother by her children.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
We know what the comments are going to say, and
that's so the content for context if you've never come
across his account, is prank's scaring them, but like in
a really wholesome way, or like you know, he's got
a little girl who's eating cereal and he comes over
and starts eating it, and she's just bamboozled by.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Again, a mother would never do that. No, she's the
one pouring the cereal.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Very light and it is genuinely funny, like a very
very good context.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So there are quite a few of these guys on
the internet dad's having a good time with their kids
and making lots of muoler out of it, but with
seemingly little criticism. And I'm here for it. I think
that although we all know, and I'm sure that one
of us has plenty of stats about it, it's not
great to show your kids all over social media. However,
(38:16):
if children are the center of your life and parenting
is most of your world, seeing content based around it
is really important. I think, like I just do. I
think that it reflects a reality, and ideally you want
a diverse section of that that shows the joy and
the fun and the frustration and the hardships, because that's
what parenting is, right, It's all those things. But these
(38:38):
guys are all what we know is Disneyland dads, And
there are plenty of mothers I know who are driven
crazy by this stuff because they're like, I'm there crying
on TikTok, not me personally crying on TikTok because my
child's having a meltdown and I'm trying to get them
to brush their teeth and go to school, and I'm
(38:58):
expressing the difficulty of that. And then the Disneyland dad
is just he's, you know, in the traditional model, he's
back from work and he's like, let's go to the
park kids, or I'm taking you all out this weekend.
It's particularly pervasive in separated families. The Disneyland dad idea
that dad's always a good time and mum's always doing
the hard work. And some of this content falls into
(39:20):
those stereotypical categories. But I think that ideally you've got both.
I don't think that all parenting content should just be
shiny and joyful and happy dances, because that's not what
parenting's like. But also we can all see the problems
with kids having meltdowns.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Yeah, or is this indicative of there's a lot of
stats about the division of millennial parenting and how millennial
dads are doing more parenting than you know, ever before
in history.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
As it does get more equally a millennial dad.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
While looking after, they're doing more parenting, spending more hands
on time with their kids.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
It's not equal, let's not pretend it is. But is
it sort of.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Starting to get their domestic work, so it's another thing
and it's not fun to film. Yeah, exactly right, that's
not so fun to film. But as it gets more equal,
are we going to see dads share more and more
content Because even the meltdown or the getting your kid
to brush their teeth with hove might be experiencing that too.
He just chooses not to get his phone out and
film it, right, And so when I looked at his content,
(40:27):
I went, I've got no issue with people sharing images
of their kids online.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's something that I just.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Go, I reckon, you love your kid more than I
love your kid, and I reckon, you know what's best
for your kid, Like I just trust you know your kids,
you know how comfortable they are with it. His kids
are also a little bit older. He has one who's
young like a toddler, but they're very consenting and involved
and know they're being filmed, which I think makes people
feel different. The content that I must say stops me
(40:55):
sometimes is when there is a child who appears not
to be enjoying being filmed. Often it's an adolescent who
is in the background. And I'm talking content creators. I
think it's very different if you're on a private profile.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
But slent teenagers okay, on.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
A way, every photo album is full of Salentine ages.
He didn't want their photo taken.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
That I don't love, and I must say that.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
And I guess I don't have an answer as to
how you talk about this stage of parenting, but meltdowns, screaming,
worst moments.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Getting the camera out.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
I get it. I get that you need solidarity. I
get that you might feel like you need help you've
got no one to turn to. But I think about
the dignity of that child, and that sometimes does make
me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
And he doesn't do that. I agree with that, Jesse,
But I think Holly said something really important before that
I want to reiterate and highlight, which is you said
that people share this content both to feel less alone themselves,
but also it makes other people feel less alone. And
I'm a lot of it that has been lost in
the moral panic about sharing children online. As you said, Holly,
(42:02):
we have lots of stats and facts about why you
shouldn't be sharing your children online, say many experts, but
that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about
the fact that for many parents this is a bit
of a lifeline for them, both the posting and the
consuming of the content. And I'm wondering as more men
get into the act of public parenting sharenting online, maybe
(42:25):
we'll all calm down about it a little bit, because
when both men and women are doing it and it's
not just seen as something that women do, maybe we'll
all start to be a little bit more accepting of
the impulse.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I hope so, because one of the things that I
think is one of the reasons why women I mean,
and I know there are family lots of female family
creators out there who do lots of fun stuff on
the Internet, not suggesting that there aren't, but you are
more likely to see the stuff we were just talking about.
The meltdown. So I saw one from a very popular
family creator when I was before I came in here,
where she'd filmed herself taking the iPad off her I
(42:59):
want to say, five year old and her five year
old having a full on meltdown about it and this
person had three million followers and it was uncomfortable to
watch for the reasons you've already spelled out, Jesse, but
also I think, I mean, I'm obviously way beyond that
stage now, but if I was back where I was once,
it would have made me feel really good, not good
(43:20):
like as in, haha, your life sucks like mine does that?
Like I thought I was the only terrible parent who
sometimes lets my kid have the iPad too long and
then I get punished for it by the awful meltdown
they have when I take it off them. It would
have made me feel less alone. And I think the
problem is if women's family content was all just like
Disneyland dadding like having great times doing challenges, a lot
(43:42):
of the commentary would be like, how do you have
time to learn dances with your children? Like my life
isn't that easy? Don't you have to get them to school?
Aren't you did it? Like the judgment that would come
at them and probably from other women that would be
along the lines of basically must be nice, would be overwhelming,
you know, And I think that that's interesting because I
hope that as more dads as sharing family content, I
(44:03):
hope they are doing it while they're actively parenting. I know,
you know. I was just thinking when you were talking
about that before, Jesse, that a hundred years ago and
my kids were babies. Brent took time off work to
do the first year of parental leave right, and he
used to make these ridiculous videos with the kids. He
did one of Matilda like dangling from a baby harness
with the music from Mission Impossible behind it, like do
(44:24):
do do do do? And he tickled himself so hard,
like weightlifting with babies, and he wasn't TikTok didn't exist.
And I know that some of my mother's group friends
would be like, how does he have time to do that?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I was like, I.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Don't know, but it seems to be working for him.
But I feel like if that was a mom, she'd
be getting a lot of don't you have something better
to do?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Or is it just?
Speaker 4 (44:47):
Can content be a form of play? And that's a
dopamine him, yeah, yeah, and a play for both. And
if they both appear to be enjoying themselves and there
just happens to be a camera there, then maybe we
are kind of comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I think as soon as your kids say stop, stop,
wonder what happens with you? I've got if you've just
won Content Creator of the Year of your kids say,
I don't wonder. Do any dances today, Danny, And he's like,
have you seen this trophy? Have you seen this trophy?
We will be dancing.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Well.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
This has been fun. Friends. Thank you out louders for
having us in your ears. A reminder that you can
see this whole thing on YouTube and why wouldn't you
want to? We're just lovely to look at that at
all times. A massive thank you for being here with us,
and a massive thank you to our team for helping
us put the show together. Jesse, have we got something
to tell everybody? What are you wearing?
Speaker 4 (45:38):
We have a very exciting announcement in the lead up
to Christmas, which is if you are watching us on
YouTube or if you've seen our social videos today, I
am wearing my Mummy out Loud T shirt right and
we have discounted our merch I believe till the sixth
of December, because if you order before then you will
(45:58):
get it in time for Christmas. So these T shirts,
which is the.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Only thing that's like covering my bump.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
At the moment, you're modeling. The most popular design she
has a puffer fish on it. There are a few
different ones, but the poffer fish has proved most popular.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It's so good for like you know, when you want
a graphic printed tea to throw on to go to
the beach or whatever. It's just perfect and it's like
really good quality. Fifty bucks for a t shirt, twenty
dollars for a tote. These are with tots are like Chambra.
They are very fancy. They are the ultimate gift for
the out louder in your life. We often meet out
(46:32):
louders where they're with their mum, or they're with their friends,
or it's like a point of connection between people. Chris
Kringle gift, Christmas Day gift, whatever it is, Jump onto
our website. There is a link in our show notes
Mum may are out Loud Merch cheapest it's ever been
and yes, the sale is on right this second until December.
The sixth link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
To shop Bye
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we've recorded this podcast.
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