October 8, 2025 • 49 mins
If we could give Jennifer Lopez one tip: not every ex needs a friendship arc. Looking at you, Ben Affleck. Some things — like red carpets and rekindled flings — are better left in the early 2000s. On today's show, Holly braces herself for this scurrilous JLo gossip. Take cover, friends.
Plus, a plot twist in the Taylor Swift PR machine no one saw coming. Jessie’s been deep in internet sleuth mode and she’s ready to explain why the Swiftie outrage might actually be legit.
And finally: WTF is klarnamaxxing? If you live by 'buy now, pay later', you need to hear Amelia deep dive into this.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Taylor Swift Debrief: A Surprising Diss Track, Travis’ Wood & The Hot Takes
- Listen: LITTLE TREAT: Holly & Jessie Spill The Tea On Writing A Book
- Listen: Why No One's Having Sex In Bed Anymore
- Listen: Decoding The Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban Divorce Narrative
- Listen: Vanessa Amorosi, Emma Watson & The Problem When Kids Earn More Than Their Parents
- Listen: Victoria Beckham’s Version & Jessie’s Very Big News
- Listen: “Tough It Out”. The Announcement That Upset Us More Than We Expected
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Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- With two words, Jennifer Lopez just summed up what went wrong with Ben Affleck.
- Jennifer Lopez's first Instagram after splitting from Ben Affleck says everything.
- Nicole Kidman’s new breakup bangs are telling a much bigger story.
- HOLLY WAINWRIGHT: The details that make Nicole and Keith's split kind of about us.
- The moment the tide turned for Jennifer Lopez.
- The Life of a Showgirl leaves no doubt there will never be another Taylor Swift.
- All the Life Of A Showgirl Easter Eggs in one place.
- A brutally honest review of Taylor Swift's new movie.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking
about on Wednesday, the eighth of October. I'm Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And here's what's made our agenda today.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life
Event discourse exactly right, and today Swift is in trouble.
You may have missed why. We discuss why some fans
are very pissed off.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
And we're going to talk about Klana maxink. That's a
new term for the buy now, pay later lifestyle. But
there might be a dark side to young women buying
luxury goods with these services.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And j Lo and Ben, I don't know. I don't
know if we're ready to go through all this again. Friends,
we need to hold hands and discuss why some should
just not try to be friends.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We have some urgent thoughts. But first, Jesse, in case
you missed it, there has been a surge in shark
tracking app downloads, which is following the death of a
surfer in d Y last month. So after people saw
that news, thousands of people, particularly in New South Wales,
downloaded the app Shark Smart. There's another one called dorsal something.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's the one I've got.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, and it works by providing real time alerts about
tagged shark detections and also sightings from surf life saving drones. Now,
while your actual chances of being attacked by a shark
in Australia are ridiculously low, you're far more likely to
get caught in, say a lethal rip. Incidents of shark
(01:54):
attacks in Australia have gone up for a variety of reasons.
I knew about changes in coastal erosion and even climate
change and a bunch of things. And also more people
are using Australian beaches than ever before in history, right,
more people are swimmingulation growth, lots of tourists exactly exactly right,
So it does make sense. But in saying that, the
(02:15):
approach to any injuries with sharks has improved astronomically, so
it is very unlikely to have a fatal shark attack
now I would know. So, Holly, you have a shark
tracking app. I do and for all the surfing you do.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Look, it's interesting because you know, I'm against tracking in general.
I want to respect the sharks. Yeah, but I have
dorsal and I don't know why my relationship with it
this summer is going to be complicated because, without wanting
to sound flippant about what has clearly been you know,
very traumatic incidents and loss of life, the problem with
it is is now I get pinged all the time.
(02:52):
So I live near the coast and on the south
coast of New South Wales, and so my area you
know that you select the area that you're interested in,
and it's quite big and it pings all the time,
and that's quite alarming. So you open your thing and
there's a little shark fin and it's at beach near
where I live, and it's at there, and it's there
and it says this is a white, this is a bronzer,
(03:13):
this is and it kind of messes with my head
because then I also think, oh, these are only the
tag sharks, because I think, and don't at me if
I got this wrong, but I think the way I
thought that these are sharks that are.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Tagged, they're tagged, And then I'm not sure if this
is Jossil as well, but there's like drone technology used
by places that they kind of look over when the
water's they can see.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
These are basically the sharks.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We know about.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
And what this means is the holly sharks, the ones
that resent being trapped figure out all these like sneaky
ways to swim under the radar.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
We're not even thinking.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
They are not on fine, my friends, they are not.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And the thing is is it's changed my mindset. So
you know, I might walk along the beach then where
I live, and I usually look out the sea and
I thinking that's beautiful. If it's a lovely day, I'm
going to go for a swim. Now I'm finding myself
looking out there and going I know what's out there,
And it's changing my relationship with the ocean. So I wonder,
like I wonder if they're really sensible and help us
(04:14):
assess risk or if they make us mentally increase the risk.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, and also if it makes us acknowledge who the
ocean primarily belongs to. Right, it's like the idea that
they're going to exist and we have to work out
how to coexist. But I was also thinking I got
stuck in a rip like a few years ago. It
was really scary, Yeah, terrifying, And I'm like, oh, there's
got to be an app that tells me where there's
a rip. Of course there is some app. It's a
(04:40):
bit of a less interesting app, right of fins exactly,
less shark fins. But I'm like, that would probably be
more useful if before we got in the water we
all checked to go, all.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Right, assess the danger of this beach.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, listen, I need an app for something else. Magpies
in swooping season, No, and I got swooped twice.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yes, where were you?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Sorry?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
That sounded like victim blaming. I'm so sorry, but where Yeah,
you're next time? Asked me what I was wearing. And
by the way, there's no truth to the fact that
they swoop particular colors.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So before you, okay what I was wearing, which was
a beige hat, If that's okay with you, Jesse, it
needed eyes on the bat.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So were you in a park?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
No, I was just walking in my neighborhood and this
magpie swoops me and then I have to cross over
the street and he clearly has a vendetta. They do
whole grudges. They do because they know about faces. They
know up to two hundred human faces, and they remember
them for up to twenty years.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So this smagpie clearly hates me.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
And now I've been advised you cannot walk down that
street during swooping season because now he thinks you really
are a threat. Something about you really triggered him. And
it's a hymn. They're all male. You just got to
avoid that street for the rest of the month.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, that's helpful.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It belongs to the birds.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
But there is a tracking, a way to track magpie swoopings.
I've gone deep on this. There are websites where you
can in real time see people logging their magpie swoopings,
which I did.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
There's a lot of them around right now.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Did I tell you I was in a really bad
mood once and I walked out onto the street and
a magpie went for me, got me in the eye.
I remember that I got swooped by a magpie in
the eye, and I was like, I defended you, like
people who were afraid of birds. I was always like that, samuch,
I have a like now now you.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Do think they're little dinosaur?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, that's kind of funny. It's kind of funny seeing
someone's being swooped if they're not get hurt. I acknowledge
this is wrong, but I was in my neighborhood the
other week and there was a kid and he had
a bike helmet on and I even had those things
sticking out of it, because kids are very savvy on
their bikes around my neighborhood. They'll put like cable ties
sticking out of their helmet and stuff to deter them.
(06:43):
And there was a kid. He was riding along the
pavement and these magpies just kept swooping him, and he
was like, it was actually very amusing to watch. He
was fine, nobody was hurt, but it was just very primal,
very boy versus and I think he was kind of
enjoying it because then he went to the end of
the road turn around.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I just thought it was so funny, but I'm sorry,
I know it's not funny.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I saw a post by rider Caroline O'donnaho yesterday that
read people will winge all year that culture has become
too splintered and that there are no water cooler moments anymore,
and then lose their shit if an album or movie
is in the news for longer than three days.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
This is entirely accurate because we're having one of those
what do we call a monocultural moment, yes because yesterday
I was out and about around Sydney work and all
you could hear coming out of every car and every
shop was that new Taylor Swift single, The Fate of Aphilia,
And it was very unifying. It felt great. It was
a warm evening and that song was everywhere, and you
(07:42):
were like, when was the last time we were all
playing the same.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
The same song exactly, And then people get annoyed because
they're like, well, I don't even like it, it's overrated.
You can't say that it's overrated, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And you don't know enough about this artist to have
an opinion about editing. When then you like that song.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Or not, you know what you actually know too much,
So how about that?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life
of a Showgirl discourse, and today's chapter is all about AI.
So we talked about all the tail, the disk track,
the treadwife, accusations, accusation on yesterday's Too Much Bread. But
today we're going to talk about why Taylor is in trouble.
(08:23):
So on Saturday, our time, something about a bunch of
orange doors were hidden in twelve cities around the world.
There was a treasure hunt. There was something about like
you'd go to the door. There was a QR code.
None of this needs to make sense. Just stay with this,
just roll with it. What you might have actually seen
is that if you went on Google that day, they
(08:43):
had a special Taylor Swift themed kind of info thing,
you know how they come with sometimes out.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Loud to posted about it and said go and google
Taylor Swift and see what happens. So I did, because
I do it loud to tell me, and that very
quickly didn't understand.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Exactly well, that was part of it, right. So these
twelve doors led to twelve videos which were part of
a promotional scavenger hunt released by Google. So what's the problem,
what's the problem?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Bit of fun the kind of thing that people do
all the time for.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Emotion, exactly. It feels a bit Pokemon go.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
How famous do you have to be? The take out
of Google? Like? Could I do it? On a book release?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
So fans started noticing that these videos looked very AI
So there's a finger that goes through a napkin. A
hanger is there and then that disappears. There's a treadmill,
but all the letters are gibberish. To summarize. Look, I've
seen these videos along with most people on the internet.
These videos are AI. Taylor hasn't confirmed it. None's officially
(09:43):
confirmed it, but they just are.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
One of them looks distinctly like the prompts they put
into the generative. AI was something about George Michael's Freedom
ninety video. Do you remember that iconic musically here with
the supermodels and the bathtub and the dark mansion.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That was absolutely the prompt.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Okay, that's how it felt, right. So this is from
an artist who has fiercely advocated for artists' rights. That's
always been her beat. She has spoken out about pornographic
deep fakes, which are created by AI, that she's been
a victim of that. Last year, she explicitly called out
Donald Trump after he used an AI generated image of
(10:24):
Taylor endorsing him for president, and she said this has
conjured up my fears around AI. Now the closer I look,
the more I think that people are missing a very
key piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Here.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
But before we get to that, what do you guys
make of this use of AI. Do you think that
it's us all being a little bit hysterical or do
you think it's a real misstep.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
No, I think it's a real mistep I think when
I watch aar videos like these, I feel sad. So
the one that looks like the George Michael Freedom ninety video,
it feels like an alien version of the George Michael
Freedom ninety video. It has none of the originality, it
has none of the punch, it has none of that
incredibly invigorating feeling when you see original creative art for
(11:05):
the first time. And I do have to point out,
sorry to be a down but generative AI is generative,
meaning it's drawing on what other artists have done to
create new things. So not only is she putting out
of work people who could have made those videos, she's
also drawing on work that other artists have produced without
paying for it.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And there's a huge environmental cost too. But we all
know that as well.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I have seen all these criticisms AI is stolen art,
as everybody knows it's accurate. The thing is, I think
that Taylor Swift, particularly at moments of mass saturation of
Taylor Swift, as we have been living through for almost
a week. As you point out, she becomes like the
lens through which you see everything in the culture and
every argument within the culture. So whether that is ambition
(11:50):
versus greed, you know, is she too greedy or is
she just an ambitious you know woman, hustle versus tradwifeism.
All of the conversations we're having, you can apply them
to a Taylor Swift moment like this one, Like pop
versus art is also one, you know, is this just
throwaway pop? Lots of people are saying, and then this
which is the AI versus the true artists. I think
(12:13):
that Amelia is right. I think that if you're taking
a serious view on it, it is nonsense that someone
as powerful as Taylor Swift, because she's become a corporation
in herself. She's very much and she draws criticism for this,
but is also massively admired for this at this point
in her career, in complete control of her kingdom in
a way that her queendom rather in a way that
(12:36):
most artists are certainly not. They are being dictated to
by record companies, marketing executives, all those things. Whereas we
all know that Swift has fought really, really hard to
have complete creative control of her world, and so because
of that, it also kind of opens her up to
personal criticism in a way that if the circumstances were different,
(12:59):
it wouldn't be And I think you said this in
the show yesterday the subscribers show that we did, Jesse.
Is that you know, there's obviously Taylor Swift the human,
there's Taylor Swift the artist, this tailor Swift the brand,
and Taylor with the brand is of course open for criticism.
I mean, all those people are to a point, but
because she is the queen of her kingdom, any criticism
of Taylor Swift the Brand quickly falls and translates into
(13:21):
criticism of her. So if the people who are saying
this use of AI is disappointing from somebody who has,
as you've both pointed out, been very stridently defensive of
artists who can afford to pay proper people to put
their videos together, that is all valid criticism, but where
it often ends up is silly, selfish billionaire, you know
(13:43):
what I mean. And that's kind of disappointing.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
I reckon Taylor Swift is so pissed off. So it
was released by Google. Now Google has a brand new
product it is about to release that is going up
against Open Ai, and that product is an AI video generator,
and this is the biggest cultural moment of the year.
So Google, to my mind, has gone, how do we
(14:08):
harness the tailor Swift brand to promote this product?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But they can't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
They can't do that. Taylor Swift's okay, exactly right now.
I can see a world in which this was pitched
or whatever they went, We're gonna have doors, and we're
gonna have this and we're gonna have Easter eggs and
blah blah blah, and Taylor's team has thought, okay, that's fine.
But the fact that this hasn't been shared by Taylor Nation,
(14:34):
which is her official kind of what they share on Instagram.
It's been taken off the YouTube channels since it went up,
suggests to me that she is trying to distance herself
from it. It's cheap, it's anti art, it doesn't make
you feel anything, and it is in consistent with the
film that she released on the weekend. So I didn't
(14:54):
go and see it, but lots of people in the
office did. And the point of that film, whether you
liked it or not, was to show the perfectionism and
the control of Taylor Swift is like a creative genius,
Like she's going from the costumes to the set to
every little detail. There is not a shred of AI
in that. It is almost an ANTIAI project. So to
(15:17):
then have these weird promotional videos that are made with
Google AI software is just very bizarre.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Devil's advocate on this is that surveys have shown that
young people do not care as much about this notion
of AI art versus human art as older people do.
And these videos also, like there's been speculation, for instance,
there's like slippers and blankets depicted in the videos, and
there's been speculation that this will become part of the
(15:45):
merch world or the universe of things you can buy
related to the Showgirl era. I just wonder if, even
if she was involved, the thinking was that the target
audience for these kinds of things, people running around a
city taking QR code pictures, that's not probably going to
be older people, It's going to be younger people. And
maybe there's some way in which we need to get
(16:08):
over this.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, because although
obviously I, like quite deeply do believe that AI is
built on stolen art, I do also understand that Taylor
Swift and any really successful artist in this era has
to be always on in a way that means you
are generating stuff all the time, and she is very
(16:28):
good at that. She has adapted and her team have
adapted very quickly to every new platform that has come
her way. Because she's been famous in creating music long
enough that TikTok certainly wasn't a thing. YouTube phenomenon wasn't
a thing.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
She was able to define new platforms which it took
her music off Spotify. She basically got Spotify to move
how it treated artists.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
So she is very adaptable, very savvy, very technologically savvy.
Like her art is one thing, I don't think anyone
can argue that some exploding hearts on Google that you
press and get his art, it's not. It's just the
gamification that just adds to the And so of course
artists are going to use AI to make that kind
(17:08):
of stuff because it's not high stakes and the volume
that is required. Is it a good use of the
human artists time to be making tiny little blad videos
of this might be the bath that from the hotel
that maybe Taylor Swift wants lay in to recover from
her Barcelona show line.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And like video editors, graphic designers, creatives are terrified and
are losing jobs and are being replaced at a quicker
rate than pretty much anyone else. And I think that
this reveals probably the greatest tension, well, there are a
few tensions, but one of the greatest tensions in the
music industry at the moment, which is this fear of
(17:49):
AI and.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
All creative industries to be honest.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, And so to kind of have that as any
part of what you do feels like even if she
didn't know about it, I think you'd be kicking yourself
because you would want to and it sends a like
a feeling of disappointment.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
When the audience for it.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
I think Holly's point that great artists have to do
a lot of things. They're stretched in terms of their
own personal time and being able to fulfill all their projects,
but they're also.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Pushing the envelope.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
They're changing what we think of as acceptable and as
normal redefining things, and I wonder if this is part
of us being left behind a little bit by this
new notion of what is art, and she's speaking to
younger people.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Before we move on. Jesse, I think in the same
way that I had to do a mere culpa when
I told all the out louders with such confidence that
Kate Middleton would never die her hair like that she
just wouldn't, and that she did, and I had to
say sorry, guys. I think we went viral a little
while ago for your theory that Taylor Swift was definitely
going to play the Super Bowl, and not only do
(18:56):
we know she's not because bad Bunny is, but she
spelled out on Jimmy Fallon last night why she definitely
wasn't going to. Do you have anything to say to
the other idea.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I tried to East Egg. I'm not a swifty and
I tried to East Egg. And sometimes we don't really
understand Easter eggs and you've just got to throw them
out there, and sometimes you go eastter egg hunting and
you just get a rapper. I tried. I was wrong.
I reserve my right to still lay claim to this
theory if it happens.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And some people, lots of people agreed with you. There
was something about sour dough being the logo for them.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Something about that there was an orange and blast. I
was like, I thought, this is how we played Easter Eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sour dough is the logo of any apparently.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Is anyway whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
We don't really understand.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
She says she's definitely not going to and she's definitely
not going to.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Because Travis still plays.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
She's hoping her man will be out there on the field,
like bashing into people and putting his skull at risk.
And she's like, I can't be working on my corrol.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Well, it's the kind of thing you say to throw
us off her scent.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I'm a bit stups never backsteaw.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I don't really understand Easter Eggs, but we just have
some fun with some theories, and ultimately they're very low steaks.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
In a moment, would you have to pay your injectables?
We look into the dark side of buy now, pay
later culture. So, like everyone else, I've been listening to
Taylor's new album and there's a song on there called
Elizabeth Taylor, in which she sings, I would trade the
(20:28):
cartier for someone to trust talking about her now very famous,
very expensive Cartier watch that she also wore quite prominently
in her engagement photos with Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
How much is a Cartier watch do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So that exact model is no longer being sold new,
but vintage editions of it are going for upwards of
twenty thousand dollars or more, because of course everyone wants
one now.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And I love this watch.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
When I saw in the engagement photos, I have a
really unattractive watch, Miya has in fact told me that
on occasion, and I'm aware of that. And I saw
these photos of her wearing the Cartier and I thought,
that's a nice watch.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Maybe I should look into it.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Maybe she got it from Zaz.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So I googled the.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Cartier watch and discovered that if I could even get
my hands on one, it would be twenty five thousand dollars.
But I could use one of these buy now, pay
later programs or services to pay just a little bit
now and then pay the rest of it off later.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Whatever could go wrong.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But you've seen these right in every checkout page for
an online shop, you see the opportunity to get the
product now, pay a little bit for it and then
pay it off later.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
So for installments exactly.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So the various companies that do this after pays an
Australian one, there's also Zip, there's Klana. So you see
these companies on every checkout now. And the way that
it's different to old fashioned layby is layby was all
about paying gradually and then getting the product. But these
news services say you get the product and then you
(22:01):
pay for it. Buy now, pay later, much more attractive,
much more attractive. So I managed to avoid going into
debt for my Cartier. But sefer that is not to
say I have not been tempted before, and a generation
is now turning to buy now, pay later for everything
from botox to concert tickets, says a recent article in
(22:22):
the Wall Street Journal. I was staggered by these numbers.
Forty percent of Australians use these services regularly. Millennials make
up seventy five percent of users of these various services.
And a recent US study nailed the problem with them,
which is, yes, they're interest free if you pay them
off on time. They're not interest free if you end
up having to pay over a longer period, as a
(22:43):
lot of people do. And what these loans make you
do is buy things you would not have otherwise bought.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
That's the sweet spot for them.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
So various people interviewed in this Wall Street Journal article
on New York Times article on the subject was also
coming out recently. They've bought Harry style tickets, they've bought flights,
they've bought luxury lipsticks. We've talked about the Louis Vuitton
one hundred and eighty dollars lipstick. They're buying that on
the buy now, pay later the consumer psychology this is
really old. We all know I'd rather pay a dollar
a day for a year than three hundred and sixty
(23:14):
five dollars up front. But there does seem to be
something new in this idea that like, why did I
think I could buy a cashier watch?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Why was that even on my radar?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
And why was it tempting for me to pay a
little bit now and then a lot later for it?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Holy?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Is this new?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes? And no, I think that. You know, we've used
that analogy before of walking through business class to get
to economy, and how you're always more pissed off about
sitting in economy if you've walked through business class first.
Now we do that for everything because of social media.
So I have never obviously set foot in a first
class airplane section what if we call it? So I
(23:50):
don't know what it's called. But because of TikTok and Instagram,
I know exactly what they look like.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Cabin cabin, that's the word we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I've never set foot in the first class cabin of
an airplane, but because of Instagram TikTok, I know exactly
what they look like. I know about the fluffy beds
and about the door. I know about the caveat service.
I know about all these things. I could even tell
you that different airlines have different like yeah, I could
tell you I.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Know which one I want to fly first.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Which is never going to happen. I have never owned
a designer handbag, but I know exactly that a Minnie
Kelly is more expensive than the bigger bags, even though
you can't fit an iPhone in it. I know this
stuff because it's all on social media. So we all
now have to walk through business class to get to
economy on everything from healthcare to skin care to beauty
to lunch to holidays. Like that's what it feels like, right, Yes,
(24:38):
and so that's why I think this is so appealing
in this moment. It's obviously really appealing to any have
to pay small amounts when we're all in the cost
of living crisis and everything's expensive. I saw in that
New York Times piece that two thirds of Coachella tickets
are brought this way.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So and that makes it. I mean, we all know
how expensive it is to go to a concert now,
to go to any kind of event that you want
to go to, and so it makes financial sense in
this kind of cost of living crisis, but also luxury
goods that are, to quote what Jesse Stevens would say,
none of our business, like most people's business. The Cardier watch,
why should we know?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
You know what I mean, It's better if I don't.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It's better if I don't. Is now sort of it
appears to be democratized because it's everywhere and everybody seems
to be tiktoking about them all the time, but they
are still very exclusive.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
And that's not an accident. Amelia as well, that you've
felt for a moment like that what should belong to you?
And that's because there's been all this analysis done on
the feminization of these brands. So there was an article
in the Atlantic that talked about how these are being
framed as cute debt and even the use of the
(25:49):
word cute is like, there's something very female about having
a little bit of shopping debts.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, that's fine indulgence.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
There's actually an afterpay ad that reads, eat the whole
tub of ice cream and spread the calories over six weeks.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Like that's a female code. It's a girl math, Yes, exactly.
There's also the cash app in the US and it
said little payments are so much cuter. And that's when
this writer named Annie Joy Williams looked at it and went, Okay,
this is not for men. And even Klana the brand
for a little while. I'm not sure if it still is,
but it was pink and one of the people who
(26:24):
was promoting it was Paris Hilton. It was this idea
that like, women are entitled to those little treats.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It's about treating yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
In fact, let's have a listen to the way that
this shows up on social media and on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
The payday sales got me good.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Okay, after paydays, say anyone else fall victim to after
payday sales because I assured it it's.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So dangerous because it's not new in that debt and
credit card debt has obviously often been marketed to the
youth market, but now it's much more stringent rules about that.
And in Australia the biden now pay later industry is
subject to pretty strict rules. This year they change the
rules on it, but still the marketing of it is
the wild West on social media, no question. And if
(27:08):
you're susceptible to that kind of mindset, and I certainly was.
I've spoken about this before on the show that when
I was younger, credit card debt that was a massive
problem for me. In this article, one of the women
interview talked about buying something on after pay for the
first time, and she says taking home such a treasure
for only a small cost upfront felt like stumbling across
(27:29):
a cheat code, a kind of unlock. And that is
exactly how I remember feeling when I first bought a
pair of genes on credit card for the first time,
Like putting that card down knowing I didn't have the
money for the genes and walking out with those genes,
it unlocked something in my brain. It's not anything to
be proud of. I'm sure it's you know, to do
(27:51):
with your makeup in lots of ways that then went
on to have really serious repercusions. For me, I got
in so much credit card debt when I was young.
It came back to bite me later in life. It
still plays out sometimes. My attitude to money can be
terrible and if you're susceptible to that, because some people aren't,
they're like, I'm scared of debt. I never want to
get a debt. And the marketing of this doesn't talk
(28:11):
about debt noticing no, because dad is a big scary word,
particularly in a tight economy. But this is all little treats.
But if you are susceptible to that kind of instant gratification,
that kind of delaying the inevitable, then this can be
really dangerous.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And that's the thing is that a lot of these
I guess you'd call them products, but they have been
marketed as the anti credit card because they're going, well,
if you did the credit card, then you'd be paying interest,
and with us, you're not. You just have to do
your FOURGN installments or whatever. If you're putting a lot
of products on this then I don't think a lot
of us, if we're honest, have a totally transparent relationship
(28:49):
with how much we're spending, because when you spend four
hundred dollars, it is the same as spending four dollars.
It's just tap tap tap tap tap tap tap, like
all the time. And I can avoid looking at my
bank account if I want, like I don't have to
even go to an ATM and discover that I've got nothing.
I used to have to look at how much was left,
and now you can just kind of put your hands
(29:10):
over your eyes and ignore it, which is a very
dangerous way to live. And it also normalizes living a
life of debt, basically putting your whole life in debt.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
And you can also tell that we're in a real
moment of people embracing this because these companies tried to
market themselves as different from credit cards, and now credit
cards and traditional banks are getting in on the buy now,
pay later scheme because they've recognized that you can collect
a lot of interest from people when they don't fully
understand where and when the money is getting taken out
(29:41):
of their bank account. But I wanted to talk about
why this is happening in this moment, because Holly, I
couldn't agree with you more. That feeling of when you
first are spending on a credit card and doing it
recklessly as a young person, and buying jeans and buying
I remember I bought a new Mew handbag back in
the day that I definitely could not have afforded, which
I put on a credit card, which then got me
into trouble later. But I think what's new about this
(30:04):
is a couple of deeper cultural vibes that.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Are kind of fueling it.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
So we all got into the but of buying things
to lift our mood in the pandemic, and now that's
continued as things like groceries get more and more out
of reach.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
We all need fun money. We all feel like we
deserve fun money.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
And then there's that notion of financial manifestation that's also
really big on TikTok, the abundance mentality. You remember Ronda
Burns The Secret, that book that came out in two
thousand and four, which led to people thinking that if
you lived beyond your means and if you put that
out into the universe enough, that would lead to financial success.
And I think we're seeing that play out now in
the way people are spending money.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I write about this in my most recent book in
Terms of Class, Right, there's almost this rising class consciousness
a lot of our upbringings, I think, particularly in Australia,
from suburbs to schools, you are surrounded by people who
are in your class and who probably have a similar
amount of money to you, and it feels quite comforting
(31:02):
because at my school no one had designer items and
no one went.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
To Aspen a drunk elephant hadn't even been invved.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So I was quite comfortable and just kind of went
all right, this is how my people and my sphere,
my milu whatever lives.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, I've big indulgences, were like maybe this thing I've.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Scrub Yeah, maybe a bit of fudge hair color exactly,
which you could buy at the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yes, whatever was at Wilworth. And then you go out
into the world and this was I guess pre social media,
and I went, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
This is wow.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
As you were saying, it's like those walls have kind
of come down and we've got this insight almost into
other people's homes constantly, and sometimes I worry that that's
a bad thing. It's the nune of my business.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It is, And well it's not a bad thing. I
think it's in many ways, it's probably an eye opening,
motivating thing. And when I say that, I don't mean
to work crowd or I mean to understand how the
world works. Yeah, but to the manifesting point is really interesting.
You know, we talked a while ago about that really
rich influencer, Becka Bloom. Yeah, and there's a whole rich
talk thing, right, and I had never really stepped into
(32:07):
that until we had that conversation and I needed to
go and find becker Bloom was and now I watch
her quite often. But what we were talking about on
that is that there wasn't a lot of vitriol directed
towards her. There's actually quite a lot of goodwill because
there's something almost soothing about the way that she does that.
But I also think that it's true that people feel
like if I can present a tiny bit of that,
(32:29):
that lifestyle might come my way. We also spoke recently,
remember about how dressing for work is back, like dress
for the job you want is back, and all those
kind of things, And there's sort of a confidence that
we're encouraging about you know, you need to look a
certain way, act a certain way, act rich to get rich,
all of those kind of things that I think is
(32:51):
very appealing because it all gives you just all this
list of excuses for if you are as I certainly
am and was more so susceptible to recklessness when it
comes to money. And it's really important to make the
distinction here that in difficult economic times, which were certainly
in now, some people are using by now later to
buy their basics. That's a different ballgame that says a
(33:12):
lot about the economy. What we're discussing really is not
about that, but more, as you say, the curtain dropping
on this other life, this luxurious life that we all
feel we should have a part of, as you've already
alluded to, Amelia, like skin care and beauty things that
again used to beat the idea. When I was younger,
there used to be these mythical brands, you know, like
(33:33):
Lemur or whatever, that were for very rich ladies in
very fancy spas, and you were never getting anywhere near
that stuff. And now, as we've talked about twelve year
olds in Sephora, you know, it's it's really interesting a
piece of a lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Can I ask how you stopped with the credit cards?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I was forced into it. This is a personal story,
but it's true that I was very reckless with money.
I don't know what like. I'm sure a therapist can
tell me why. But I was reckless with money, and
I also was very avoidant of dealing with it. When
I got together with Brent and we kind of merged
our lives, one of the most shameful moments of my
(34:15):
life was having to sit down and tell him how
much did I.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
That seems like a really common in a lot of
these articles. I read that it was a partner where
they had to almost confess and go by the way
I mean fifty K.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
And also that avoidant idea because these services automatically withdraw
the amount from your bank account, they're playing on people
who don't want to think about it. Yes, because you
don't have to think about it, they're going to take
it out whether you like it or not. What I
keep coming back to, Holly, is your genius analogy about
business class. The one way I would change it is
(34:48):
I actually think it's not so much that we're now
all being exposed to business class. We're all being exposed
to first class. And if you think about the way
international flights are structured, we don't walk through first now
or economy.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That's one of the appeals of first classic. The plubs
won't walk through the sack at you and go.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Oh, but now we're all walking through first class.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
When I learned that could lay down on a plane,
I thought, when I've been sitting in economy after twelve hours,
if you told me I could pay even five hundred
bucks a day to get that bed, I'd pay it.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
No half. Megan Duchess went to Paris for a lovely weekend.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
No one needs it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
She went to Paris and had a lovely time. That's
my head line.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Do you think that she flew first mate, she flew private?
Come on, I care.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
That's the whole other thing. We're never getting on those planes.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
What I'm worried about is that she wore this all
white outfit with the sort of scarf attached. Yes, And
I just kept thinking about being in Paris with all
the red wine in her all white house.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Did you have a tied pin.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I'm only telling you about this because it signaled a
bit of a new era. I think in terms of
Meg's world, because we've been Mia always says that this.
She always says she wants to be a celebrity and
just let the woman be a celebrity, but she kind
of hasn't been able to because she's royal adjacent. So
this was the first time I can remember for ages
where she just went and did a celebrity thing because
she got invited by the designer. She kinds of knows him.
(36:18):
It was his first show for Balanciaga. I don't really
understand what any of that means. She's worked with him
a long time. He swept Valentino whatever, one of my
business and he invited her to come. We call it
a jolly, you know, a jolly a for mill almost
like a book. It's a book. It's like you come, Megs,
sit front row.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
So her name was just on the door.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, she wasn't like walking the catwalk rightd of things.
She was just going to be there and be one
of the famous people there. All the famous people do it,
And this is the first time I've seen her just
go and have a little bit of fun. She posted
an excellently basic video about here's my breakfast in the hotel.
Here's my view out the window. She was definitely staying
in that really fancy one that Taylor Swift stays in.
And here's what I wore, and here and my shoes,
(37:00):
and here's my hair. And it was lovely. But that's
not what everybody said, was it, Jesse.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
There are a few headlines, Oh my god, o that woman,
the poor woman. So she allegedly laughs at a model
falling over on the catwalk.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Would she's not me with the Magpie boy.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
No, well you would have. That's why you're not invited.
But there's a picture of her smirking with no context,
and someone has found a model falling over and they're like,
there we go, Megan markleks pointing and laughing. She also
went to the Balenciaga show, which is a big no
no because she got invited to get well three years
ago Balenciaga had two controversial campaigns, so now apparently people
(37:37):
are like, I thought you cared about.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Children, even though it's now a completely different person. Yes, sure, yeah, terrible,
what a terrible human.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
There is more. There is a video of her in
a limo with her feet on the seat, which was
seen as disrespectful, but wait the limo.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yes, disrespectful celebrities have done more disrespectful things than that
in a limo.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Yeah, this limo was only streets away from where lady
died died, And how dare you have your feet up
in a way that suggests you up?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I'm sorry, I think it was weird. I think it
was weird.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
All.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Paris is only streets away from.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
That time, and her husband's not the feed up. But
when I saw that video, my first thought was, you
took a video of you in the back of a
car speeding through the streets of Paris.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
No, I just think that at all.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Okay, well, a lot of the car I think speeding
is you know, an add on?
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Okay. Apparently she also walked in a way that reminded
people of Zooland and the comments said.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I don't know how zoo Lander woked.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Like an exaggerated model, and they were like, Megan, you're
not a model, You're just a guest. Then the body
language experts came because that's what they had to do.
They ran out of headline.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
I am so excited to become a body language expert
later in my life.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
You would be so good at it because this body
language experts.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
It's good for people who like making mountains out of
molehills and.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Just looking at photos of fa exactly. So apparently she
looked anxious and uncomfortable allegedly, and you may did anyone
else the video of the awkward kiss with her friend.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Oh did you see that? The kiss with Anna Windjaw?
They looked like they were chummy.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
This was like they went in both ways and then
maybe they accidentally confusing.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, they hadn't read the etiquette guide once on the left.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
That's it exactly, she did that wrong. And also apparently
she was a bit flirty because she was walking towards
a car and then she turned around in a way
that felt dramatic.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I have to say, I think that this was a
triumph for her. It really was. Notwithstanding at tabloid headlines.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
I thought she looked fabulous, But also what was really
interesting was her star power when you compared it to
As Holly mentioned, there were lots of other celebrities there,
including Nicole Kidman. In one of her very first public
appearances since the announcement of her separation from Keith Urban.
She went to Paris for the Chanelle Show with her daughters.
And what I thought was interesting is that Megan fashion
commentator said she was indisputably the biggest star at Paris
(40:02):
Fashion Week and.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
She wasn't there with Harry. She was there, yes, so she's.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Ready for her celebrity era.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
She is right. I think she's ready for her celebrity era.
And I love how many different stories one can pull
out of a very short video of a woman going,
look at my breakfast in Paris? Anyway, that's awesome in
a moment. More scorelous gossip. I have an unpopular opinion
there are some exes who should not be friends, also
(40:28):
known as why Ben Affleck and j Loo shouldn't be
on that red carpet together?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
This week one unlimited out Loud Access. We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers.
Follow the link in the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week, and a huge
thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Friends, schorelous time, but based on facts right, As I said,
I don't know if we're all ready to go through
this again. So let's hold hands. But someone needs to
call j Loo's zodiacal council. Remember do you remember in
Jayla's amazing self created movie This Is Me Now, Yes,
(41:16):
she had a celebrity panel representing the zodiac giving her
love life advice. Trevor Nowah there, Yes, or a dream
it seems like a fever dream post. Malone was there,
Jane Fonda was there. Is such a strange group and
they were all saying things like no, don't and yes,
do whatever and basically directing Jayla's life. Well, they've obviously
(41:37):
taken a few days off because she and Ben Affleck
were on the red carpet together this week, which has
started a whole lot of rumors. Again, now a little
bit of factual context. She was on the red carpet
for the New York premiere of a new musical movie
called Kiss of the Spider Woman, which is based on
a famous stage musical. It was obviously a project that
(41:58):
got the green light during her and Ben's marriage, because
Ben and of course Matt Damon because he's always around,
are producers on this movie.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Was he at the press conference?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
See him? See any Matt Damon? I think he maybe
had the sense to just send flowers, which is what
Ben Afflecks should have done, right, so this is a
project that they clearly started together when they were married.
Just a quick refresher, they were married from twenty twenty
two to twenty twenty four, so that window there, and
also of course engaged from two thousand and two to
(42:31):
two thousand and four. Symmetry is amazing something about manifesting. Anyway,
So she's got a new project, she's got the New
York City premier. Ben turns up. There are lots of
pictures of them together. She looks, she looks fabulous, he's
kissy kissing her, and there's lots of people going, oh
my god, are they getting back together. I just want
to posit the theory and explore this theory with you.
(42:52):
There are some exes whose chemistry prohibits them from ever
being friends. Like, yes, it was a nice thing to
do in theory that Ben Affleck turned up to direct
some attention to Jalo's new project that he has invested
interest in. But you can just tell to the body
language experts, you can just tell no.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
And do you think that's a really interesting theory because
clearly some celebrities can do it, Like I believe that
if Chris Martin and Gwenne's Paltrow showed up for each
other's big premies. That wouldn't be a problem, that would
be fine. We'd think that was cozy and supportive.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
So here's one theory to posit about this. Is it
because Ben and Jalo don't have children?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Is that somehow in the mix?
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Well?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think my theory is if your relationship breaks up,
as many do, because you are more like flatmates in
inverted commers, or more like siblings by now in inverted commerce, like,
as long as there is not high betrayal or toxic
behavior involved in your split, you can probably storia celebrate
(43:58):
somebody else's wood.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Jen and Ben in fact, gender and Ben they can
do it.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
They've got the flat.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Made energy, and you can and probably should. Really again
with those caveats about you know, abuse, try and be
civil and nice when you've got the kids involved, and
these two do not. But they blended family are quite close,
so her kids and his kids are quite tight. But
I just think, and I know I'm projecting, and I
know this is scoreless. I just get the vibe from
(44:25):
them every time they're in a space. It's like sparks.
You just get that vibe and you can't do.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
That think they had sex in the toilet a car
or at time later?
Speaker 4 (44:36):
You know what it actually might be Ben himself, because
I was thinking about Gwyneth's ex'es and I don't think
Gwinn and Ben have roommate flatmate energy. I think this
and remember how she said he was technically excellent in bed.
I wonder if it's just Ben who can't really?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I wonder do you not have a platonic vibe?
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Central to it as well is the amount of time
you're with them?
Speaker 4 (45:02):
Oh, I first thought you were saying sensual, and I
was really excited for you sut a sentence of the
word sensual.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
I wonder if you've been together for twenty years, right
then it's like, clearly you worked through a bunch of stuff,
Like the sexual tension probably did evaporate a little bit
because they've been on and off, on and off, and
for those relatively short periods of time.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
They can only stand each other for twenty four months exactly,
just get out take it, dunkin Donuts.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
You But I think the sex is obviously so good. Yeah,
it blocks some kind of common sense.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yes, and we've been there.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
They have to keep marrying each other just like over
an hour. Again, if the sex with your ex is
so good that you feel like you have to marry them,
every dame, don't pretend to be friends. Don't just send
good luck because Jla.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
And Mark Anthony. I think they're fine.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
They're fine.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I think they're fine.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Do they have the twins?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
They do?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
They do have the twins? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been
looking up pictures of Jael pregnant with twins.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Oh oh, what are the celebrities?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Julie Roberts and of course my friend Beyonce, of.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Course, And how's the comparison going?
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Think about Jlo and Beyonce and a Julie Roberts is
how great they looked? And so I just look at them.
And then I look at the picture of j Loo
at fifty and I go, I can look at that.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Have any of them said anything about twins and raising twins?
Speaker 3 (46:26):
Well, Jlo was on the front page of a lot
of magazines. She looked fabulous, she had eyeshadow on, and
the twins looked happy. So I'm like, I think the
other side is glamorous and easy.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Roomy, and sir, we don't hear a lot about them.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
No, they're seventeen. Now, oh wow, oh god, yes, fraternal.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I don't want to offend you in any way. But
if you do not look like Jlo before you have twins,
is having twins? Can imagine bullet, that's going to mean
you do look like after you.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I'm we're going to get stronger.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
No, but you've got to use the olive oil. That's
very important. She says, he's a lot of olive oil
on your skin.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yeah, and I might do some of her workouts. And
doesn't she have beauty products?
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Just yeah, she does.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah. Just to bring it back a little bit.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
That's called a sidebar. Sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Page six had a really tell end quote from a
Lopez sauce unnamed I get it. They had to meet
in a secret location to share this information with Page six.
They like each other so much more when they're not
married to each other, a Lopez source said, that's a
huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
They each have roles to play. This is what I
wanted to talk about. She's the glamorous, gorgeous divas superstar
on a pedestal. He's the roguish cad who keeps her
at a distance to maintain sexual tension. The source added, so.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
Do you think that the reason why they can't really
be friends is because they have gotten lot in this.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Sexual role play. It's just unsustainable.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
I know.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I mean, obviously my life is not Jaylah and Bed,
but there are some people in your life who if
you're ever around them, you fall back into these just
the way that you behave with them, And so it's
very hard not to flirt with someone with whom you
always had flirty energy. You know, it's very hard to
bump into them on a work related red carpet and
be like very boundary and respectful. You know.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I think Jaylo needs a shark tracking app. But it's
been I think she needs to check it and she's
got to go. Ben's in radius, Jaylo, it's not getting
in the water today.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
If I've been popped, she needs the helmet.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Do not dazzle them, but it would be great. Yes
out loud.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
As gosh, I have you feeling really informed and nourished.
Back to today's conversation because we had a lot of fun.
I hope you did too. Anyway, a massive thank you
to you. As always, remember you can go and watch
us on YouTube if you want to.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Why you'd want to well because we're not AI.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
But we'll tell you that we are definitely not AI.
All LA fingers are here with us, so you can
go and watch us on YouTube if you would like too.
Massive thank you to our team. We're going to be
back in your ears tomorrow, of.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
Course, and we also have yesterday's Taylor Swift deep Dive
if you are more of that conversation. There is a
link in the show notes that is for subscribers.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Don't forget just before we go to listen to Parenting
out Loud. It drops every week on Saturday. In our
last episode, we talked about why Magic is having a
moment and also delve into the oldest daughter birth auder
theory that Taylor has just popularized for us find it
in its own feed. You just have to search Parenting
out Loud and tap follows so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Bye bye,
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking
about on Wednesday, the eighth of October. I'm Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And here's what's made our agenda today.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life
Event discourse exactly right, and today Swift is in trouble.
You may have missed why. We discuss why some fans
are very pissed off.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
And we're going to talk about Klana maxink. That's a
new term for the buy now, pay later lifestyle. But
there might be a dark side to young women buying
luxury goods with these services.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And j Lo and Ben, I don't know. I don't
know if we're ready to go through all this again. Friends,
we need to hold hands and discuss why some should
just not try to be friends.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
We have some urgent thoughts. But first, Jesse, in case
you missed it, there has been a surge in shark
tracking app downloads, which is following the death of a
surfer in d Y last month. So after people saw
that news, thousands of people, particularly in New South Wales,
downloaded the app Shark Smart. There's another one called dorsal something.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's the one I've got.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, and it works by providing real time alerts about
tagged shark detections and also sightings from surf life saving drones. Now,
while your actual chances of being attacked by a shark
in Australia are ridiculously low, you're far more likely to
get caught in, say a lethal rip. Incidents of shark
(01:54):
attacks in Australia have gone up for a variety of reasons.
I knew about changes in coastal erosion and even climate
change and a bunch of things. And also more people
are using Australian beaches than ever before in history, right,
more people are swimmingulation growth, lots of tourists exactly exactly right,
So it does make sense. But in saying that, the
(02:15):
approach to any injuries with sharks has improved astronomically, so
it is very unlikely to have a fatal shark attack
now I would know. So, Holly, you have a shark
tracking app. I do and for all the surfing you do.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Look, it's interesting because you know, I'm against tracking in general.
I want to respect the sharks. Yeah, but I have
dorsal and I don't know why my relationship with it
this summer is going to be complicated because, without wanting
to sound flippant about what has clearly been you know,
very traumatic incidents and loss of life, the problem with
it is is now I get pinged all the time.
(02:52):
So I live near the coast and on the south
coast of New South Wales, and so my area you
know that you select the area that you're interested in,
and it's quite big and it pings all the time,
and that's quite alarming. So you open your thing and
there's a little shark fin and it's at beach near
where I live, and it's at there, and it's there
and it says this is a white, this is a bronzer,
(03:13):
this is and it kind of messes with my head
because then I also think, oh, these are only the
tag sharks, because I think, and don't at me if
I got this wrong, but I think the way I
thought that these are sharks that are.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Tagged, they're tagged, And then I'm not sure if this
is Jossil as well, but there's like drone technology used
by places that they kind of look over when the
water's they can see.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
These are basically the sharks.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
We know about.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
And what this means is the holly sharks, the ones
that resent being trapped figure out all these like sneaky
ways to swim under the radar.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
We're not even thinking.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
They are not on fine, my friends, they are not.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And the thing is is it's changed my mindset. So
you know, I might walk along the beach then where
I live, and I usually look out the sea and
I thinking that's beautiful. If it's a lovely day, I'm
going to go for a swim. Now I'm finding myself
looking out there and going I know what's out there,
And it's changing my relationship with the ocean. So I wonder,
like I wonder if they're really sensible and help us
(04:14):
assess risk or if they make us mentally increase the risk.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, and also if it makes us acknowledge who the
ocean primarily belongs to. Right, it's like the idea that
they're going to exist and we have to work out
how to coexist. But I was also thinking I got
stuck in a rip like a few years ago. It
was really scary, Yeah, terrifying, And I'm like, oh, there's
got to be an app that tells me where there's
a rip. Of course there is some app. It's a
(04:40):
bit of a less interesting app, right of fins exactly,
less shark fins. But I'm like, that would probably be
more useful if before we got in the water we
all checked to go, all.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Right, assess the danger of this beach.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, listen, I need an app for something else. Magpies
in swooping season, No, and I got swooped twice.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yes, where were you?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Sorry?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
That sounded like victim blaming. I'm so sorry, but where Yeah,
you're next time? Asked me what I was wearing. And
by the way, there's no truth to the fact that
they swoop particular colors.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
So before you, okay what I was wearing, which was
a beige hat, If that's okay with you, Jesse, it
needed eyes on the bat.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So were you in a park?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
No, I was just walking in my neighborhood and this
magpie swoops me and then I have to cross over
the street and he clearly has a vendetta. They do
whole grudges. They do because they know about faces. They
know up to two hundred human faces, and they remember
them for up to twenty years.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So this smagpie clearly hates me.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
And now I've been advised you cannot walk down that
street during swooping season because now he thinks you really
are a threat. Something about you really triggered him. And
it's a hymn. They're all male. You just got to
avoid that street for the rest of the month.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, that's helpful.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It belongs to the birds.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
But there is a tracking, a way to track magpie swoopings.
I've gone deep on this. There are websites where you
can in real time see people logging their magpie swoopings,
which I did.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
There's a lot of them around right now.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Did I tell you I was in a really bad
mood once and I walked out onto the street and
a magpie went for me, got me in the eye.
I remember that I got swooped by a magpie in
the eye, and I was like, I defended you, like
people who were afraid of birds. I was always like that, samuch,
I have a like now now you.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Do think they're little dinosaur?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, that's kind of funny. It's kind of funny seeing
someone's being swooped if they're not get hurt. I acknowledge
this is wrong, but I was in my neighborhood the
other week and there was a kid and he had
a bike helmet on and I even had those things
sticking out of it, because kids are very savvy on
their bikes around my neighborhood. They'll put like cable ties
sticking out of their helmet and stuff to deter them.
(06:43):
And there was a kid. He was riding along the
pavement and these magpies just kept swooping him, and he
was like, it was actually very amusing to watch. He
was fine, nobody was hurt, but it was just very primal,
very boy versus and I think he was kind of
enjoying it because then he went to the end of
the road turn around.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I just thought it was so funny, but I'm sorry,
I know it's not funny.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I saw a post by rider Caroline O'donnaho yesterday that
read people will winge all year that culture has become
too splintered and that there are no water cooler moments anymore,
and then lose their shit if an album or movie
is in the news for longer than three days.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
This is entirely accurate because we're having one of those
what do we call a monocultural moment, yes because yesterday
I was out and about around Sydney work and all
you could hear coming out of every car and every
shop was that new Taylor Swift single, The Fate of Aphilia,
And it was very unifying. It felt great. It was
a warm evening and that song was everywhere, and you
(07:42):
were like, when was the last time we were all
playing the same.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
The same song exactly, And then people get annoyed because
they're like, well, I don't even like it, it's overrated.
You can't say that it's overrated, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And you don't know enough about this artist to have
an opinion about editing. When then you like that song.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Or not, you know what you actually know too much,
So how about that?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
We are on day six of the Taylor Swift Life
of a Showgirl discourse, and today's chapter is all about AI.
So we talked about all the tail, the disk track,
the treadwife, accusations, accusation on yesterday's Too Much Bread. But
today we're going to talk about why Taylor is in trouble.
(08:23):
So on Saturday, our time, something about a bunch of
orange doors were hidden in twelve cities around the world.
There was a treasure hunt. There was something about like
you'd go to the door. There was a QR code.
None of this needs to make sense. Just stay with this,
just roll with it. What you might have actually seen
is that if you went on Google that day, they
(08:43):
had a special Taylor Swift themed kind of info thing,
you know how they come with sometimes out.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Loud to posted about it and said go and google
Taylor Swift and see what happens. So I did, because
I do it loud to tell me, and that very
quickly didn't understand.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Exactly well, that was part of it, right. So these
twelve doors led to twelve videos which were part of
a promotional scavenger hunt released by Google. So what's the problem,
what's the problem?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Bit of fun the kind of thing that people do
all the time for.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Emotion, exactly. It feels a bit Pokemon go.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
How famous do you have to be? The take out
of Google? Like? Could I do it? On a book release?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
So fans started noticing that these videos looked very AI
So there's a finger that goes through a napkin. A
hanger is there and then that disappears. There's a treadmill,
but all the letters are gibberish. To summarize. Look, I've
seen these videos along with most people on the internet.
These videos are AI. Taylor hasn't confirmed it. None's officially
(09:43):
confirmed it, but they just are.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
One of them looks distinctly like the prompts they put
into the generative. AI was something about George Michael's Freedom
ninety video. Do you remember that iconic musically here with
the supermodels and the bathtub and the dark mansion.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That was absolutely the prompt.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Okay, that's how it felt, right. So this is from
an artist who has fiercely advocated for artists' rights. That's
always been her beat. She has spoken out about pornographic
deep fakes, which are created by AI, that she's been
a victim of that. Last year, she explicitly called out
Donald Trump after he used an AI generated image of
(10:24):
Taylor endorsing him for president, and she said this has
conjured up my fears around AI. Now the closer I look,
the more I think that people are missing a very
key piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Here.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
But before we get to that, what do you guys
make of this use of AI. Do you think that
it's us all being a little bit hysterical or do
you think it's a real misstep.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
No, I think it's a real mistep I think when
I watch aar videos like these, I feel sad. So
the one that looks like the George Michael Freedom ninety video,
it feels like an alien version of the George Michael
Freedom ninety video. It has none of the originality, it
has none of the punch, it has none of that
incredibly invigorating feeling when you see original creative art for
(11:05):
the first time. And I do have to point out,
sorry to be a down but generative AI is generative,
meaning it's drawing on what other artists have done to
create new things. So not only is she putting out
of work people who could have made those videos, she's
also drawing on work that other artists have produced without
paying for it.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And there's a huge environmental cost too. But we all
know that as well.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I have seen all these criticisms AI is stolen art,
as everybody knows it's accurate. The thing is, I think
that Taylor Swift, particularly at moments of mass saturation of
Taylor Swift, as we have been living through for almost
a week. As you point out, she becomes like the
lens through which you see everything in the culture and
every argument within the culture. So whether that is ambition
(11:50):
versus greed, you know, is she too greedy or is
she just an ambitious you know woman, hustle versus tradwifeism.
All of the conversations we're having, you can apply them
to a Taylor Swift moment like this one, Like pop
versus art is also one, you know, is this just
throwaway pop? Lots of people are saying, and then this
which is the AI versus the true artists. I think
(12:13):
that Amelia is right. I think that if you're taking
a serious view on it, it is nonsense that someone
as powerful as Taylor Swift, because she's become a corporation
in herself. She's very much and she draws criticism for this,
but is also massively admired for this at this point
in her career, in complete control of her kingdom in
a way that her queendom rather in a way that
(12:36):
most artists are certainly not. They are being dictated to
by record companies, marketing executives, all those things. Whereas we
all know that Swift has fought really, really hard to
have complete creative control of her world, and so because
of that, it also kind of opens her up to
personal criticism in a way that if the circumstances were different,
(12:59):
it wouldn't be And I think you said this in
the show yesterday the subscribers show that we did, Jesse.
Is that you know, there's obviously Taylor Swift the human,
there's Taylor Swift the artist, this tailor Swift the brand,
and Taylor with the brand is of course open for criticism.
I mean, all those people are to a point, but
because she is the queen of her kingdom, any criticism
of Taylor Swift the Brand quickly falls and translates into
(13:21):
criticism of her. So if the people who are saying
this use of AI is disappointing from somebody who has,
as you've both pointed out, been very stridently defensive of
artists who can afford to pay proper people to put
their videos together, that is all valid criticism, but where
it often ends up is silly, selfish billionaire, you know
(13:43):
what I mean. And that's kind of disappointing.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
I reckon Taylor Swift is so pissed off. So it
was released by Google. Now Google has a brand new
product it is about to release that is going up
against Open Ai, and that product is an AI video generator,
and this is the biggest cultural moment of the year.
So Google, to my mind, has gone, how do we
(14:08):
harness the tailor Swift brand to promote this product?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But they can't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
They can't do that. Taylor Swift's okay, exactly right now.
I can see a world in which this was pitched
or whatever they went, We're gonna have doors, and we're
gonna have this and we're gonna have Easter eggs and
blah blah blah, and Taylor's team has thought, okay, that's fine.
But the fact that this hasn't been shared by Taylor Nation,
(14:34):
which is her official kind of what they share on Instagram.
It's been taken off the YouTube channels since it went up,
suggests to me that she is trying to distance herself
from it. It's cheap, it's anti art, it doesn't make
you feel anything, and it is in consistent with the
film that she released on the weekend. So I didn't
(14:54):
go and see it, but lots of people in the
office did. And the point of that film, whether you
liked it or not, was to show the perfectionism and
the control of Taylor Swift is like a creative genius,
Like she's going from the costumes to the set to
every little detail. There is not a shred of AI
in that. It is almost an ANTIAI project. So to
(15:17):
then have these weird promotional videos that are made with
Google AI software is just very bizarre.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Devil's advocate on this is that surveys have shown that
young people do not care as much about this notion
of AI art versus human art as older people do.
And these videos also, like there's been speculation, for instance,
there's like slippers and blankets depicted in the videos, and
there's been speculation that this will become part of the
(15:45):
merch world or the universe of things you can buy
related to the Showgirl era. I just wonder if, even
if she was involved, the thinking was that the target
audience for these kinds of things, people running around a
city taking QR code pictures, that's not probably going to
be older people, It's going to be younger people. And
maybe there's some way in which we need to get
(16:08):
over this.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, because although
obviously I, like quite deeply do believe that AI is
built on stolen art, I do also understand that Taylor
Swift and any really successful artist in this era has
to be always on in a way that means you
are generating stuff all the time, and she is very
(16:28):
good at that. She has adapted and her team have
adapted very quickly to every new platform that has come
her way. Because she's been famous in creating music long
enough that TikTok certainly wasn't a thing. YouTube phenomenon wasn't
a thing.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
She was able to define new platforms which it took
her music off Spotify. She basically got Spotify to move
how it treated artists.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
So she is very adaptable, very savvy, very technologically savvy.
Like her art is one thing, I don't think anyone
can argue that some exploding hearts on Google that you
press and get his art, it's not. It's just the
gamification that just adds to the And so of course
artists are going to use AI to make that kind
(17:08):
of stuff because it's not high stakes and the volume
that is required. Is it a good use of the
human artists time to be making tiny little blad videos
of this might be the bath that from the hotel
that maybe Taylor Swift wants lay in to recover from
her Barcelona show line.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And like video editors, graphic designers, creatives are terrified and
are losing jobs and are being replaced at a quicker
rate than pretty much anyone else. And I think that
this reveals probably the greatest tension, well, there are a
few tensions, but one of the greatest tensions in the
music industry at the moment, which is this fear of
(17:49):
AI and.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
All creative industries to be honest.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, And so to kind of have that as any
part of what you do feels like even if she
didn't know about it, I think you'd be kicking yourself
because you would want to and it sends a like
a feeling of disappointment.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
When the audience for it.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
I think Holly's point that great artists have to do
a lot of things. They're stretched in terms of their
own personal time and being able to fulfill all their projects,
but they're also.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Pushing the envelope.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
They're changing what we think of as acceptable and as
normal redefining things, and I wonder if this is part
of us being left behind a little bit by this
new notion of what is art, and she's speaking to
younger people.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Before we move on. Jesse, I think in the same
way that I had to do a mere culpa when
I told all the out louders with such confidence that
Kate Middleton would never die her hair like that she
just wouldn't, and that she did, and I had to
say sorry, guys. I think we went viral a little
while ago for your theory that Taylor Swift was definitely
going to play the Super Bowl, and not only do
(18:56):
we know she's not because bad Bunny is, but she
spelled out on Jimmy Fallon last night why she definitely
wasn't going to. Do you have anything to say to
the other idea.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
I tried to East Egg. I'm not a swifty and
I tried to East Egg. And sometimes we don't really
understand Easter eggs and you've just got to throw them
out there, and sometimes you go eastter egg hunting and
you just get a rapper. I tried. I was wrong.
I reserve my right to still lay claim to this
theory if it happens.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And some people, lots of people agreed with you. There
was something about sour dough being the logo for them.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Something about that there was an orange and blast. I
was like, I thought, this is how we played Easter Eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sour dough is the logo of any apparently.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Is anyway whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
We don't really understand.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
She says she's definitely not going to and she's definitely
not going to.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Because Travis still plays.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
She's hoping her man will be out there on the field,
like bashing into people and putting his skull at risk.
And she's like, I can't be working on my corrol.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Well, it's the kind of thing you say to throw
us off her scent.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I'm a bit stups never backsteaw.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
I don't really understand Easter Eggs, but we just have
some fun with some theories, and ultimately they're very low steaks.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
In a moment, would you have to pay your injectables?
We look into the dark side of buy now, pay
later culture. So, like everyone else, I've been listening to
Taylor's new album and there's a song on there called
Elizabeth Taylor, in which she sings, I would trade the
(20:28):
cartier for someone to trust talking about her now very famous,
very expensive Cartier watch that she also wore quite prominently
in her engagement photos with Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
How much is a Cartier watch do you think?
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So that exact model is no longer being sold new,
but vintage editions of it are going for upwards of
twenty thousand dollars or more, because of course everyone wants
one now.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And I love this watch.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
When I saw in the engagement photos, I have a
really unattractive watch, Miya has in fact told me that
on occasion, and I'm aware of that. And I saw
these photos of her wearing the Cartier and I thought,
that's a nice watch.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Maybe I should look into it.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Maybe she got it from Zaz.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So I googled the.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Cartier watch and discovered that if I could even get
my hands on one, it would be twenty five thousand dollars.
But I could use one of these buy now, pay
later programs or services to pay just a little bit
now and then pay the rest of it off later.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Whatever could go wrong.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But you've seen these right in every checkout page for
an online shop, you see the opportunity to get the
product now, pay a little bit for it and then
pay it off later.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
So for installments exactly.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
So the various companies that do this after pays an
Australian one, there's also Zip, there's Klana. So you see
these companies on every checkout now. And the way that
it's different to old fashioned layby is layby was all
about paying gradually and then getting the product. But these
news services say you get the product and then you
(22:01):
pay for it. Buy now, pay later, much more attractive,
much more attractive. So I managed to avoid going into
debt for my Cartier. But sefer that is not to
say I have not been tempted before, and a generation
is now turning to buy now, pay later for everything
from botox to concert tickets, says a recent article in
(22:22):
the Wall Street Journal. I was staggered by these numbers.
Forty percent of Australians use these services regularly. Millennials make
up seventy five percent of users of these various services.
And a recent US study nailed the problem with them,
which is, yes, they're interest free if you pay them
off on time. They're not interest free if you end
up having to pay over a longer period, as a
(22:43):
lot of people do. And what these loans make you
do is buy things you would not have otherwise bought.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
That's the sweet spot for them.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
So various people interviewed in this Wall Street Journal article
on New York Times article on the subject was also
coming out recently. They've bought Harry style tickets, they've bought flights,
they've bought luxury lipsticks. We've talked about the Louis Vuitton
one hundred and eighty dollars lipstick. They're buying that on
the buy now, pay later the consumer psychology this is
really old. We all know I'd rather pay a dollar
a day for a year than three hundred and sixty
(23:14):
five dollars up front. But there does seem to be
something new in this idea that like, why did I
think I could buy a cashier watch?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Why was that even on my radar?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
And why was it tempting for me to pay a
little bit now and then a lot later for it?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Holy?
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Is this new?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes? And no, I think that. You know, we've used
that analogy before of walking through business class to get
to economy, and how you're always more pissed off about
sitting in economy if you've walked through business class first.
Now we do that for everything because of social media.
So I have never obviously set foot in a first
class airplane section what if we call it? So I
(23:50):
don't know what it's called. But because of TikTok and Instagram,
I know exactly what they look like.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Cabin cabin, that's the word we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I've never set foot in the first class cabin of
an airplane, but because of Instagram TikTok, I know exactly
what they look like. I know about the fluffy beds
and about the door. I know about the caveat service.
I know about all these things. I could even tell
you that different airlines have different like yeah, I could
tell you I.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Know which one I want to fly first.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Which is never going to happen. I have never owned
a designer handbag, but I know exactly that a Minnie
Kelly is more expensive than the bigger bags, even though
you can't fit an iPhone in it. I know this
stuff because it's all on social media. So we all
now have to walk through business class to get to
economy on everything from healthcare to skin care to beauty
to lunch to holidays. Like that's what it feels like, right, Yes,
(24:38):
and so that's why I think this is so appealing
in this moment. It's obviously really appealing to any have
to pay small amounts when we're all in the cost
of living crisis and everything's expensive. I saw in that
New York Times piece that two thirds of Coachella tickets
are brought this way.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So and that makes it. I mean, we all know
how expensive it is to go to a concert now,
to go to any kind of event that you want
to go to, and so it makes financial sense in
this kind of cost of living crisis, but also luxury
goods that are, to quote what Jesse Stevens would say,
none of our business, like most people's business. The Cardier watch,
why should we know?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
You know what I mean, It's better if I don't.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
It's better if I don't. Is now sort of it
appears to be democratized because it's everywhere and everybody seems
to be tiktoking about them all the time, but they
are still very exclusive.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
And that's not an accident. Amelia as well, that you've
felt for a moment like that what should belong to you?
And that's because there's been all this analysis done on
the feminization of these brands. So there was an article
in the Atlantic that talked about how these are being
framed as cute debt and even the use of the
(25:49):
word cute is like, there's something very female about having
a little bit of shopping debts.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, that's fine indulgence.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
There's actually an afterpay ad that reads, eat the whole
tub of ice cream and spread the calories over six weeks.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Like that's a female code. It's a girl math, Yes, exactly.
There's also the cash app in the US and it
said little payments are so much cuter. And that's when
this writer named Annie Joy Williams looked at it and went, Okay,
this is not for men. And even Klana the brand
for a little while. I'm not sure if it still is,
but it was pink and one of the people who
(26:24):
was promoting it was Paris Hilton. It was this idea
that like, women are entitled to those little treats.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
It's about treating yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
In fact, let's have a listen to the way that
this shows up on social media and on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
The payday sales got me good.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Okay, after paydays, say anyone else fall victim to after
payday sales because I assured it it's.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So dangerous because it's not new in that debt and
credit card debt has obviously often been marketed to the
youth market, but now it's much more stringent rules about that.
And in Australia the biden now pay later industry is
subject to pretty strict rules. This year they change the
rules on it, but still the marketing of it is
the wild West on social media, no question. And if
(27:08):
you're susceptible to that kind of mindset, and I certainly was.
I've spoken about this before on the show that when
I was younger, credit card debt that was a massive
problem for me. In this article, one of the women
interview talked about buying something on after pay for the
first time, and she says taking home such a treasure
for only a small cost upfront felt like stumbling across
(27:29):
a cheat code, a kind of unlock. And that is
exactly how I remember feeling when I first bought a
pair of genes on credit card for the first time,
Like putting that card down knowing I didn't have the
money for the genes and walking out with those genes,
it unlocked something in my brain. It's not anything to
be proud of. I'm sure it's you know, to do
(27:51):
with your makeup in lots of ways that then went
on to have really serious repercusions. For me, I got
in so much credit card debt when I was young.
It came back to bite me later in life. It
still plays out sometimes. My attitude to money can be
terrible and if you're susceptible to that, because some people aren't,
they're like, I'm scared of debt. I never want to
get a debt. And the marketing of this doesn't talk
(28:11):
about debt noticing no, because dad is a big scary word,
particularly in a tight economy. But this is all little treats.
But if you are susceptible to that kind of instant gratification,
that kind of delaying the inevitable, then this can be
really dangerous.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
And that's the thing is that a lot of these
I guess you'd call them products, but they have been
marketed as the anti credit card because they're going, well,
if you did the credit card, then you'd be paying interest,
and with us, you're not. You just have to do
your FOURGN installments or whatever. If you're putting a lot
of products on this then I don't think a lot
of us, if we're honest, have a totally transparent relationship
(28:49):
with how much we're spending, because when you spend four
hundred dollars, it is the same as spending four dollars.
It's just tap tap tap tap tap tap tap, like
all the time. And I can avoid looking at my
bank account if I want, like I don't have to
even go to an ATM and discover that I've got nothing.
I used to have to look at how much was left,
and now you can just kind of put your hands
(29:10):
over your eyes and ignore it, which is a very
dangerous way to live. And it also normalizes living a
life of debt, basically putting your whole life in debt.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
And you can also tell that we're in a real
moment of people embracing this because these companies tried to
market themselves as different from credit cards, and now credit
cards and traditional banks are getting in on the buy now,
pay later scheme because they've recognized that you can collect
a lot of interest from people when they don't fully
understand where and when the money is getting taken out
(29:41):
of their bank account. But I wanted to talk about
why this is happening in this moment, because Holly, I
couldn't agree with you more. That feeling of when you
first are spending on a credit card and doing it
recklessly as a young person, and buying jeans and buying
I remember I bought a new Mew handbag back in
the day that I definitely could not have afforded, which
I put on a credit card, which then got me
into trouble later. But I think what's new about this
(30:04):
is a couple of deeper cultural vibes that.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Are kind of fueling it.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
So we all got into the but of buying things
to lift our mood in the pandemic, and now that's
continued as things like groceries get more and more out
of reach.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
We all need fun money. We all feel like we
deserve fun money.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
And then there's that notion of financial manifestation that's also
really big on TikTok, the abundance mentality. You remember Ronda
Burns The Secret, that book that came out in two
thousand and four, which led to people thinking that if
you lived beyond your means and if you put that
out into the universe enough, that would lead to financial success.
And I think we're seeing that play out now in
the way people are spending money.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I write about this in my most recent book in
Terms of Class, Right, there's almost this rising class consciousness
a lot of our upbringings, I think, particularly in Australia,
from suburbs to schools, you are surrounded by people who
are in your class and who probably have a similar
amount of money to you, and it feels quite comforting
(31:02):
because at my school no one had designer items and
no one went.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
To Aspen a drunk elephant hadn't even been invved.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
So I was quite comfortable and just kind of went
all right, this is how my people and my sphere,
my milu whatever lives.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, I've big indulgences, were like maybe this thing I've.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Scrub Yeah, maybe a bit of fudge hair color exactly,
which you could buy at the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Yes, whatever was at Wilworth. And then you go out
into the world and this was I guess pre social media,
and I went, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
This is wow.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
As you were saying, it's like those walls have kind
of come down and we've got this insight almost into
other people's homes constantly, and sometimes I worry that that's
a bad thing. It's the nune of my business.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It is, And well it's not a bad thing. I
think it's in many ways, it's probably an eye opening,
motivating thing. And when I say that, I don't mean
to work crowd or I mean to understand how the
world works. Yeah, but to the manifesting point is really interesting.
You know, we talked a while ago about that really
rich influencer, Becka Bloom. Yeah, and there's a whole rich
talk thing, right, and I had never really stepped into
(32:07):
that until we had that conversation and I needed to
go and find becker Bloom was and now I watch
her quite often. But what we were talking about on
that is that there wasn't a lot of vitriol directed
towards her. There's actually quite a lot of goodwill because
there's something almost soothing about the way that she does that.
But I also think that it's true that people feel
like if I can present a tiny bit of that,
(32:29):
that lifestyle might come my way. We also spoke recently,
remember about how dressing for work is back, like dress
for the job you want is back, and all those
kind of things, And there's sort of a confidence that
we're encouraging about you know, you need to look a
certain way, act a certain way, act rich to get rich,
all of those kind of things that I think is
(32:51):
very appealing because it all gives you just all this
list of excuses for if you are as I certainly
am and was more so susceptible to recklessness when it
comes to money. And it's really important to make the
distinction here that in difficult economic times, which were certainly
in now, some people are using by now later to
buy their basics. That's a different ballgame that says a
(33:12):
lot about the economy. What we're discussing really is not
about that, but more, as you say, the curtain dropping
on this other life, this luxurious life that we all
feel we should have a part of, as you've already
alluded to, Amelia, like skin care and beauty things that
again used to beat the idea. When I was younger,
there used to be these mythical brands, you know, like
(33:33):
Lemur or whatever, that were for very rich ladies in
very fancy spas, and you were never getting anywhere near
that stuff. And now, as we've talked about twelve year
olds in Sephora, you know, it's it's really interesting a
piece of a lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Can I ask how you stopped with the credit cards?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I was forced into it. This is a personal story,
but it's true that I was very reckless with money.
I don't know what like. I'm sure a therapist can
tell me why. But I was reckless with money, and
I also was very avoidant of dealing with it. When
I got together with Brent and we kind of merged
our lives, one of the most shameful moments of my
(34:15):
life was having to sit down and tell him how
much did I.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
That seems like a really common in a lot of
these articles. I read that it was a partner where
they had to almost confess and go by the way
I mean fifty K.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
And also that avoidant idea because these services automatically withdraw
the amount from your bank account, they're playing on people
who don't want to think about it. Yes, because you
don't have to think about it, they're going to take
it out whether you like it or not. What I
keep coming back to, Holly, is your genius analogy about
business class. The one way I would change it is
(34:48):
I actually think it's not so much that we're now
all being exposed to business class. We're all being exposed
to first class. And if you think about the way
international flights are structured, we don't walk through first now
or economy.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That's one of the appeals of first classic. The plubs
won't walk through the sack at you and go.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Oh, but now we're all walking through first class.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
When I learned that could lay down on a plane,
I thought, when I've been sitting in economy after twelve hours,
if you told me I could pay even five hundred
bucks a day to get that bed, I'd pay it.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
No half. Megan Duchess went to Paris for a lovely weekend.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
No one needs it.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
She went to Paris and had a lovely time. That's
my head line.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Do you think that she flew first mate, she flew private?
Come on, I care.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
That's the whole other thing. We're never getting on those planes.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
What I'm worried about is that she wore this all
white outfit with the sort of scarf attached. Yes, And
I just kept thinking about being in Paris with all
the red wine in her all white house.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Did you have a tied pin.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I'm only telling you about this because it signaled a
bit of a new era. I think in terms of
Meg's world, because we've been Mia always says that this.
She always says she wants to be a celebrity and
just let the woman be a celebrity, but she kind
of hasn't been able to because she's royal adjacent. So
this was the first time I can remember for ages
where she just went and did a celebrity thing because
she got invited by the designer. She kinds of knows him.
(36:18):
It was his first show for Balanciaga. I don't really
understand what any of that means. She's worked with him
a long time. He swept Valentino whatever, one of my
business and he invited her to come. We call it
a jolly, you know, a jolly a for mill almost
like a book. It's a book. It's like you come, Megs,
sit front row.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
So her name was just on the door.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, she wasn't like walking the catwalk rightd of things.
She was just going to be there and be one
of the famous people there. All the famous people do it,
And this is the first time I've seen her just
go and have a little bit of fun. She posted
an excellently basic video about here's my breakfast in the hotel.
Here's my view out the window. She was definitely staying
in that really fancy one that Taylor Swift stays in.
And here's what I wore, and here and my shoes,
(37:00):
and here's my hair. And it was lovely. But that's
not what everybody said, was it, Jesse.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
There are a few headlines, Oh my god, o that woman,
the poor woman. So she allegedly laughs at a model
falling over on the catwalk.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Would she's not me with the Magpie boy.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
No, well you would have. That's why you're not invited.
But there's a picture of her smirking with no context,
and someone has found a model falling over and they're like,
there we go, Megan markleks pointing and laughing. She also
went to the Balenciaga show, which is a big no
no because she got invited to get well three years
ago Balenciaga had two controversial campaigns, so now apparently people
(37:37):
are like, I thought you cared about.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Children, even though it's now a completely different person. Yes, sure, yeah, terrible,
what a terrible human.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
There is more. There is a video of her in
a limo with her feet on the seat, which was
seen as disrespectful, but wait the limo.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yes, disrespectful celebrities have done more disrespectful things than that
in a limo.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Yeah, this limo was only streets away from where lady
died died, And how dare you have your feet up
in a way that suggests you up?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I'm sorry, I think it was weird. I think it
was weird.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
All.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Paris is only streets away from.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
That time, and her husband's not the feed up. But
when I saw that video, my first thought was, you
took a video of you in the back of a
car speeding through the streets of Paris.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
No, I just think that at all.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Okay, well, a lot of the car I think speeding
is you know, an add on?
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Okay. Apparently she also walked in a way that reminded
people of Zooland and the comments said.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I don't know how zoo Lander woked.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Like an exaggerated model, and they were like, Megan, you're
not a model, You're just a guest. Then the body
language experts came because that's what they had to do.
They ran out of headline.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
I am so excited to become a body language expert
later in my life.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
You would be so good at it because this body
language experts.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
It's good for people who like making mountains out of
molehills and.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Just looking at photos of fa exactly. So apparently she
looked anxious and uncomfortable allegedly, and you may did anyone
else the video of the awkward kiss with her friend.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Oh did you see that? The kiss with Anna Windjaw?
They looked like they were chummy.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
This was like they went in both ways and then
maybe they accidentally confusing.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, they hadn't read the etiquette guide once on the left.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
That's it exactly, she did that wrong. And also apparently
she was a bit flirty because she was walking towards
a car and then she turned around in a way
that felt dramatic.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I have to say, I think that this was a
triumph for her. It really was. Notwithstanding at tabloid headlines.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
I thought she looked fabulous, But also what was really
interesting was her star power when you compared it to
As Holly mentioned, there were lots of other celebrities there,
including Nicole Kidman. In one of her very first public
appearances since the announcement of her separation from Keith Urban.
She went to Paris for the Chanelle Show with her daughters.
And what I thought was interesting is that Megan fashion
commentator said she was indisputably the biggest star at Paris
(40:02):
Fashion Week and.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
She wasn't there with Harry. She was there, yes, so she's.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Ready for her celebrity era.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
She is right. I think she's ready for her celebrity era.
And I love how many different stories one can pull
out of a very short video of a woman going,
look at my breakfast in Paris? Anyway, that's awesome in
a moment. More scorelous gossip. I have an unpopular opinion
there are some exes who should not be friends, also
(40:28):
known as why Ben Affleck and j Loo shouldn't be
on that red carpet together?
Speaker 3 (40:33):
This week one unlimited out Loud Access. We drop episodes
every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers.
Follow the link in the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week, and a huge
thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Friends, schorelous time, but based on facts right, As I said,
I don't know if we're all ready to go through
this again. So let's hold hands. But someone needs to
call j Loo's zodiacal council. Remember do you remember in
Jayla's amazing self created movie This Is Me Now, Yes,
(41:16):
she had a celebrity panel representing the zodiac giving her
love life advice. Trevor Nowah there, Yes, or a dream
it seems like a fever dream post. Malone was there,
Jane Fonda was there. Is such a strange group and
they were all saying things like no, don't and yes,
do whatever and basically directing Jayla's life. Well, they've obviously
(41:37):
taken a few days off because she and Ben Affleck
were on the red carpet together this week, which has
started a whole lot of rumors. Again, now a little
bit of factual context. She was on the red carpet
for the New York premiere of a new musical movie
called Kiss of the Spider Woman, which is based on
a famous stage musical. It was obviously a project that
(41:58):
got the green light during her and Ben's marriage, because
Ben and of course Matt Damon because he's always around,
are producers on this movie.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Was he at the press conference?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
See him? See any Matt Damon? I think he maybe
had the sense to just send flowers, which is what
Ben Afflecks should have done, right, so this is a
project that they clearly started together when they were married.
Just a quick refresher, they were married from twenty twenty
two to twenty twenty four, so that window there, and
also of course engaged from two thousand and two to
(42:31):
two thousand and four. Symmetry is amazing something about manifesting. Anyway,
So she's got a new project, she's got the New
York City premier. Ben turns up. There are lots of
pictures of them together. She looks, she looks fabulous, he's
kissy kissing her, and there's lots of people going, oh
my god, are they getting back together. I just want
to posit the theory and explore this theory with you.
(42:52):
There are some exes whose chemistry prohibits them from ever
being friends. Like, yes, it was a nice thing to
do in theory that Ben Affleck turned up to direct
some attention to Jalo's new project that he has invested
interest in. But you can just tell to the body
language experts, you can just tell no.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
And do you think that's a really interesting theory because
clearly some celebrities can do it, Like I believe that
if Chris Martin and Gwenne's Paltrow showed up for each
other's big premies. That wouldn't be a problem, that would
be fine. We'd think that was cozy and supportive.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
So here's one theory to posit about this. Is it
because Ben and Jalo don't have children?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Is that somehow in the mix?
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Well?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think my theory is if your relationship breaks up,
as many do, because you are more like flatmates in
inverted commers, or more like siblings by now in inverted commerce, like,
as long as there is not high betrayal or toxic
behavior involved in your split, you can probably storia celebrate
(43:58):
somebody else's wood.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Jen and Ben in fact, gender and Ben they can
do it.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
They've got the flat.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Made energy, and you can and probably should. Really again
with those caveats about you know, abuse, try and be
civil and nice when you've got the kids involved, and
these two do not. But they blended family are quite close,
so her kids and his kids are quite tight. But
I just think, and I know I'm projecting, and I
know this is scoreless. I just get the vibe from
(44:25):
them every time they're in a space. It's like sparks.
You just get that vibe and you can't do.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
That think they had sex in the toilet a car
or at time later?
Speaker 4 (44:36):
You know what it actually might be Ben himself, because
I was thinking about Gwyneth's ex'es and I don't think
Gwinn and Ben have roommate flatmate energy. I think this
and remember how she said he was technically excellent in bed.
I wonder if it's just Ben who can't really?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I wonder do you not have a platonic vibe?
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Central to it as well is the amount of time
you're with them?
Speaker 4 (45:02):
Oh, I first thought you were saying sensual, and I
was really excited for you sut a sentence of the
word sensual.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
I wonder if you've been together for twenty years, right
then it's like, clearly you worked through a bunch of stuff,
Like the sexual tension probably did evaporate a little bit
because they've been on and off, on and off, and
for those relatively short periods of time.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
They can only stand each other for twenty four months exactly,
just get out take it, dunkin Donuts.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
You But I think the sex is obviously so good. Yeah,
it blocks some kind of common sense.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yes, and we've been there.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
They have to keep marrying each other just like over
an hour. Again, if the sex with your ex is
so good that you feel like you have to marry them,
every dame, don't pretend to be friends. Don't just send
good luck because Jla.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
And Mark Anthony. I think they're fine.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
They're fine.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
I think they're fine.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Do they have the twins?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
They do?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
They do have the twins? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been
looking up pictures of Jael pregnant with twins.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Oh oh, what are the celebrities?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Julie Roberts and of course my friend Beyonce, of.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Course, And how's the comparison going?
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Think about Jlo and Beyonce and a Julie Roberts is
how great they looked? And so I just look at them.
And then I look at the picture of j Loo
at fifty and I go, I can look at that.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Have any of them said anything about twins and raising twins?
Speaker 3 (46:26):
Well, Jlo was on the front page of a lot
of magazines. She looked fabulous, she had eyeshadow on, and
the twins looked happy. So I'm like, I think the
other side is glamorous and easy.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Roomy, and sir, we don't hear a lot about them.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
No, they're seventeen. Now, oh wow, oh god, yes, fraternal.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I don't want to offend you in any way. But
if you do not look like Jlo before you have twins,
is having twins? Can imagine bullet, that's going to mean
you do look like after you.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I'm we're going to get stronger.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
No, but you've got to use the olive oil. That's
very important. She says, he's a lot of olive oil
on your skin.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yeah, and I might do some of her workouts. And
doesn't she have beauty products?
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Just yeah, she does.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah. Just to bring it back a little bit.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
That's called a sidebar. Sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Page six had a really tell end quote from a
Lopez sauce unnamed I get it. They had to meet
in a secret location to share this information with Page six.
They like each other so much more when they're not
married to each other, a Lopez source said, that's a
huge red flag.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
They each have roles to play. This is what I
wanted to talk about. She's the glamorous, gorgeous divas superstar
on a pedestal. He's the roguish cad who keeps her
at a distance to maintain sexual tension. The source added, so.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
Do you think that the reason why they can't really
be friends is because they have gotten lot in this.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Sexual role play. It's just unsustainable.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 4 (47:54):
I know.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I mean, obviously my life is not Jaylah and Bed,
but there are some people in your life who if
you're ever around them, you fall back into these just
the way that you behave with them, And so it's
very hard not to flirt with someone with whom you
always had flirty energy. You know, it's very hard to
bump into them on a work related red carpet and
be like very boundary and respectful. You know.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I think Jaylo needs a shark tracking app. But it's
been I think she needs to check it and she's
got to go. Ben's in radius, Jaylo, it's not getting
in the water today.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
If I've been popped, she needs the helmet.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Do not dazzle them, but it would be great. Yes
out loud.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
As gosh, I have you feeling really informed and nourished.
Back to today's conversation because we had a lot of fun.
I hope you did too. Anyway, a massive thank you
to you. As always, remember you can go and watch
us on YouTube if you want to.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Why you'd want to well because we're not AI.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
But we'll tell you that we are definitely not AI.
All LA fingers are here with us, so you can
go and watch us on YouTube if you would like too.
Massive thank you to our team. We're going to be
back in your ears tomorrow, of.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
Course, and we also have yesterday's Taylor Swift deep Dive
if you are more of that conversation. There is a
link in the show notes that is for subscribers.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Don't forget just before we go to listen to Parenting
out Loud. It drops every week on Saturday. In our
last episode, we talked about why Magic is having a
moment and also delve into the oldest daughter birth auder
theory that Taylor has just popularized for us find it
in its own feed. You just have to search Parenting
out Loud and tap follows so you don't miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Bye bye,
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