The Exact Reason The Golden Bachelor Highlights A New Class Divide

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia. Out loud. What women are actually talking about
on Wednesday, the twenty second of October. My name is
Holly Waynwright.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
I am Amelia Lester and I'm Claire Murphy.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
And on our agenda for today, I watched The Golden
Bachelor and now I need therapy, although maybe not for
the reason you expect.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's daughter Apple is everywhere right now?
Is this how a star is born? I want to
unpack the strategy.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
And have you ladies heard about the October slump? It
sounds awful, but we have some tips on how to
pick that butt up out of its rut and get
your brain back in the game.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thank god for that. But first, Amelia Lester.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Albow went to the White House on Monday. Finally got
it how they had a lovely lunch he and Donald Trump.
I was concerned because on the lunch menu for dessert
they were having a pavlova, which sounded great, but it
was served with pair and ice cream, and my personal
view is that pavlova should not be served with ice

(01:25):
cream because traditionally you have worked cream on top.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
So why did it have to have fruit accompanying it?
Because fruit should be part of the pavlova?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Should it not a lot of questions so a little
bit like the Americans didn't understand Pavlova.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
That wasn't the most awkward part of the event though,
look overall it went pretty well. I think the consensus
is that Albanezi did a good job, but there was
one moment which I still cannot even think about without
experiencing full body squarem.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Full body squirm.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Sky News political editor Andrew Klennell was at a press
conference afterwards and he did a little bit of us
shall we say shit stirring I believe it's the technical
term love that he asked Trump about disparaging comments that
Australia's ambassador to the US, Kevin Rudd, had once made
about him. Let's take a listen, be.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
Concerned in Australia that it's taken nine months to get
this meeting. Have you had any concerns with this administration
with a stance on Palestine, climate change, or even things
the ambassador said about you in the past. He's strain
an ambassador.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I don't know anything about him. If he said bad,
then maybe he'll like to apologize. I really don't know
an ambassador to say something bad about it. Don't tell
me where is he?

Speaker 6 (02:40):
Is he still working for me?

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, you said bad.

Speaker 5 (02:46):
Before I took dispositions to prison.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
But I don't like you either, and probably never will.
So what you can't see that is Trump turns to Alberanezer,
who's sitting next to him, and says, do you know
about this guy's he's still working for you? And Albo
clearly had to make a decision in that second as
to what to do.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
No, my decision would have been sliding under them, literally
out under the jamas.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Simpson retreating into the hedge, and he just has this
enormous smile on his face, which may be him on
the verge of tears and has to admit that the
person who called Trump a village idiot and the most
destructive president in history is in fact sitting on the
other side.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Of the table.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Claire, you are a news hound. Is this the most
awkward moment in diplomacy you've ever seen? I?

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Mean, we've had worse.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
There's been hot Mike moments which you know, have landed
our leadership team in trouble in the past, which I
think is potentially worse. But this was so beautiful. I
just I could not love this moment more. For the
starter is I don't know if it's a prerequisite if
you are an Australian reporter working at the White House
you have to sound as quintessentially Australian as humanly possible,

(03:58):
because that question could not have sounded more broadly aussy.
Then just that beautiful setup of knowing that Kevin Rudder
is sitting at that table, and Elbow knows that Kevin
Rudder is sitting at that table, and then for Trump
to drop it right in his lap and then he
has to deal with it, and I think he dealt
with it just beautifully in the fact that he just
literally pointed across the table at Kevin, like, oh yeah,

(04:20):
it's that guy.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
It just felt like.

Speaker 4 (04:22):
This moment of it could have been the undoing of
all of this, but I feel like it's almost made
it the ceiling of the deal, Like it made it
feel like, oh my god, they've had a bit of
a lull and I did hear that afterwards, Trump did
give Kevin Rut a full pardon for his past comments.
But it could have potentially been so much worse, but
it felt so very Australian. I think it just played

(04:46):
into every American person's vision of what Alarican ossie kind
of is in that moment, and I think it just
played out beautifully. I think it couldn't have gone better.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
How is it a defense, like so he called Trump
village idiot? Let's be honest, there are many of us
who think good on you, Kevin. You said what everybody thought.
How is it a defense to be like, oh, yes,
mister president. But before I had this, if you're like,
I totally think you're a village idiot, but I'm not
allowed to say it now, It's basically what he was saying.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Holly, you had a really interesting comment when we were
chatting about it, which is that Albo and Trump represent
two very different ideas of masculinity. Definitely, And do you
feel like those two ideas ended up being complimentary rather
than clashing in this moment?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Look, it actually looked that way. I know there are
people who like to paint Albow as weak because he
is not the alpha male guy, or at least outwardly
he isn't. I mean, one assumes that he has to
have a pretty steel spine to get to where he is.
He doesn't perform a kind of alpha male energy. And
there are people who like you to believe he was weak.
But I think that the fact that he didn't hide

(05:54):
under the table, which is what I would have done,
or been like, no, I've never heard of him. I
don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
He also didn't stop or starter either.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
He didn't do like an uh uh uh like there
was none of that moment either, Like he just went
with it.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
It suggests a bit of mutual respect to be fair,
which is, you know, not that everybody wants to suck
up to Trump, but he is kind of important in
the scheme of things at the moment, as even Kevin
Rudd has to acknowledge.

Speaker 6 (06:18):
Friends.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Last night, I watched The Golden Bachelor. I'm hoping it
will contribute to my eventual Walkley nomination. In case you
missed it, here's what you need to know about the
show that started on Monday night. It's a new version
of The Bachelor, right that show the normal Bachelor after
domination for several years in the early teens, and then
the Bachelorette spin off and that's success. It got canceled

(06:41):
in May last year, and the broad consensus is that
people really aren't into that kind of more innocent dating
show anymore. We like our maths, we like our fisty cuffs,
all that kind of thing. So nine have rolled the
dice on the idea that the people who are still
watching this kind of TV are actually Generation X and
they've given us our own version of grown up women

(07:03):
wearing lovely frocks and behaving in really inappropriate fashion.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
So what ages are we talking?

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Bear who's the Bachelor, And yes he is called Beer
and he's originally from Canada, but he's lived in Australia
a really long time, but he hasn't lost his accent.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Can't relate.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Bear is sixty one, he's a widower, his wife died
thirteen years ago, and he is choosing from twenty women
aged between fifty one and sixty six.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
I wonder how they came up with that age group.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
I know, right well, maybe it was his settings on Tinder.

Speaker 7 (07:34):
Yet.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
You know how you can pick. I think maybe that
was where he was already picking, right, so he seems
nice and everything bear like, kind of boring, kind of nondescript.
But who's not boring? Of the women and they steal
all the airtime, as they always do in these kind
of shows. But seeing this big group of grown up
women kind of entering the house, wearing their frocks, doing

(07:57):
all those things, the silly stunts they do. Somebody comes
on a horse, somebody comes in a wedding dress, blah
blah blah blah blah. It kind of feels novel to
see women of that generation doing that. And I'm on
picking how I feel about it. But one of the
more complicated feelings watching this show brought up for me
is what I need to unpack today. There's a story

(08:18):
on Mamma Mia called Opinion because it was an opinion piece.
The Golden Bachelor highlights a new class divide. Now, it's
important to note that this particular story, as I'm talking now,
has been read by thousands and thousands of women and
is going very well on Mamma Mia, So plenty of
people are clicking on this story, and in it, the
writer Rachel Wells argues that what's most apparent when you

(08:41):
get twenty over fifty women in one room, is who
has had work and who has not. And she argues
that that distinction is all about who can afford it
and who can't, and that is like becoming a new
class divide.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Interesting because before it would have just been probably the
clothes or maybe the accent, but now it's written on
their faces.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, right, And so I think that's true. But I
also think it's deeper than that, because I think that
the cold heart truth is that as a culture, and
possibly as a generation, I'm perfectly willing to be taken
to task by my younger co hosts today that we
are so obsessed with women's aging faces and the vast

(09:22):
array of decisions that are out there now, obviously informed
by things like access and money and desire, the vast
array of choices is that it's impossible to watch this
show and not be thinking. And this is what my
inner monologue was doing. And I'm always very staunch about
you do you when it comes to aging, it's impossible
not to be thinking, oh she's aging, well, oh she's

(09:44):
done a bit too much. Oh subtle talks, a little
bit of wrinkles.

Speaker 7 (09:48):
We like.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
That is basically it's impossible to not be reading their
faces like a rich text on aging. And I kind
of hate myself for that because that's just inside my
own head. It's like a smorgas board of beauty and
body choices. And I barely even looked at Bear like
he might as well have not been on screen. I'm
aware that that's the problem position in my own mind,

(10:11):
and it used to be on MoMA Mia for example,
that when we RecA and it still is to be honest,
when we recap reality shows and things, we've always stayed
away from commenting on women's individual appearances. And one of
the main reasons for that is because there's plenty of
that all over the internet, and almost always that gets
turned into the stick that she used to beat those
women with. It'll just be like, Wow, she's done as

(10:31):
pretty as she thinks she is, and she looks a
bit older, she needs to get to the gym, and
just all this awful, toxic dialogue about what women look like.
So broadly we've left all that alone because we don't
want to add to the pylon. But I feel like
when it comes to aging, women's faces and aging, we're like,
in a bit of a new era of disclosure. We've
talked about it on the show, a little bit of

(10:51):
disclosure and interest and sharing information, Amelia. Is that true?
Are we in this new age of disclosure? Or am
I just trying to justify what's going on inside my head?

Speaker 1 (11:04):
I think that's really interesting what you said that MoMA
Mia used to have this policy, but that you feel
like it's changing a little bit. And I think the
reason why that might be is because, even from a
feminist perspective, which is where this conversation and where Mumma
Mira is coming from on this, you have to acknowledge
that the connection between how you look and your age,

(11:27):
that link is now being weakened. We can no longer
safely assume what age someone is by how they look,
because now we have all sorts of options available that
we didn't have before. It reminded me of another big
debate that's happening in media at the moment, which is
about whether we should automatically put someone's age after their name. Yeah,

(11:48):
because that's been practiced in newspapers and in written publications forever.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, for everybody, and it is standard training as a reporter, right.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
You have to admit or or I will admit to
you that it's an instinct for me when I'm reading
a story to sort of scan for how old someone is.
I don't know why. I think it's because it helps
situate them for me. But now there's this debate that
says that's agist. Why is it that we have to
put someone's name and then immediately put their age after
their name, because we're trying to redefine what it means

(12:17):
to be a certain age, so that if it says
Amelia Luster of forty two, forty two today could mean
all sorts of different things that it didn't mean twenty
years ago. Claire, what do you think about that?

Speaker 4 (12:28):
It's so interesting because I've spoken to a few psychologists
over the years about this very thing, and the thing
that they all say, us humans are really good at
is putting people in a framework that helps us understand
them better, whether that's putting them in a box, whether
that's finding patterns. Our brain really likes to contextualize things,

(12:49):
and part of that will be someone's age, their ethnicity,
it'll be what.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Country they're from.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Like, we've got all these ways of identifying ourselves so
that we can create a vision of who we think
this person is. And I had a discussion with my
husband about this is not about age, but about sexuality
and gender very recently, and there's a character on a
TV show and he was saying, Oh, is that a
man or is that a woman? And I said, look,
I don't know. They seem to be, you know, gender nonconforming.
I'm not sure either way. And he said, oh, but

(13:18):
like do we know, like biologically? And I said to him,
why do you need to know, Like why do you
need to know whether that is a biological man or
a woman?

Speaker 3 (13:26):
And he said, I don't know. My brain just is
telling me I need to know.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
And I think it's the same with age, where we
find these people are appearing on our screens now they
seem fairly ageless, or we saw them when they were
young and now they still seem to be young, or
we see younger women now there's quite a big TikTok
movement of like younger women saying how old do you
think I am? And the person will go, I don't know,
like thirty five, and they're like, I'm twenty four because

(13:52):
they look so much older than what they would have done.
A few decades ago, so our brains really want to
hitch onto something to make us better understand who that
person is and if that person's faces had work done.
I think for us, we look at what age they are,
and then we go, oh, they've got a great plastic surgeon,
because they might be sixty three but they look forty two,

(14:12):
or you know, vice versa, if they've had bad work done.
I think our brains go, Okay, they've got a bad
plastic surgeon. But I think this whole idea of trying
to become an ageless society where we don't care about
how old someone is, I just don't think human brains
are wide in a way that allows us to completely
let that go. And we'll always be looking for patterns
or boxes to put people into try and contextualize them.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
We're thin slicing people, right, We're going what I need
to know about you is broadly like how old you are,
what you do for a livah blah blah blah, so
that we can work out where to put them. But
I would argue that it's not necessarily about how old
you look, because I don't think that everybody who has
a lot of procedures necessarily look younger, but what they
look like is like they are. I think it's becoming

(14:59):
code for I am well groomed. I think that when
you move over fifty women sort of fall into camps
that somehow tell you, in thin slicing how how important
it is to them like what they look like, because
work can mean everything from can afford to see a
facialist and get really good facials once a month too,

(15:20):
I had a deep plane face lift, you know what
I mean. And that spectrum is enormous. And one of
the things about this show is you're kind of seeing
a spectrum there on the TV of all the different
ways that women who are in a similar ten year
age bracket look. And the argument in Rachel Wells's Peace was, well,
that tells you whether or not they could afford it.
But the problem with that argument is it suggests that

(15:41):
every single woman who can afford to do things to
her face to make her a lot younger will do it.
And I'm not convinced that that's true, are you No?

Speaker 1 (15:52):
And I also think that another dynamic is changing too.
You said that it doesn't necessarily make them look younger,
and that was the line on plastic surgery for a
long time, it doesn't make women look younger, it makes
them look different. I think because of advances in plastic surgery,
that is changing. And my evidence for that I've got
two celebrities. I want to posit to you that Anne

(16:15):
Hathaway looks younger than she looks younger than she used to.
And the other example is Chris Jenna, who's one hundred
thousand dollars facelift. To my eye, she now looks like
she has in her forties. She doesn't, she does, Holly.
Chris Jenna wants you to talk about it. And I
think that's in part because in this new era of surgery,

(16:39):
it's not just about radical transparency for the sake of it.
It's about wanting people to recognize the effort you put
in and the skill that has been applied to your work.
I think that that's why people want us to talk
about their surgery. Now. I want to be clear here,
I'm not advertising or for surgery, but I am saying
that the work is getting better. To my untrained eye,

(17:02):
I am now finding it more confusing to figure out
someone's age.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
But don't you think that deep plane facelifts from Hollywood
plastic surgeons who can make magic aside like it or not.
And I, again, it's my conditioning, and I'm aware it's
my gen x conditioning, and I often try and program
against it. Right, what I see when I meet someone
who's my age, I'm fifty three. When I meet someone
who's my age, whether or not, she's had a lot

(17:27):
of things done to her face. And I'm not talking
about deep planing facelifts because in my ordinary world, I
don't do my knowledge know anyone who's done that. But
a great deal of my friends will do injectables, fillers,
resurfacing teeth, stuff that is very common. And they're not
people who are in the public eye. They're people who
are teachers and marketing executives, whatever, like, lots of people
do that stuff. What it tells me about you is

(17:49):
it tells me about your priorities. In out loud as
a while ago, a woman posted a question that said,
if you could afford work, would you get it done?
And there were a lot of answers. There were like
two hundred answers to this question, and I think it
was about seventy thirty to the yes. Wow, that's much
higher than maybe sixty forty. I didn't do a full
I didn't feed it into the robot. Majority said yes.

(18:12):
But also to be clear, at work again was that
spectrum I was talking about from injectables to facelifts. But
a lot of people said, I'd rather spend the money
on travel if I had if I had disposable income,
I'd rather spend it on travel. Or some people said,
if I had the disposable income, I'd get facials and
expensive serums and rich lady treatments. But I wouldn't go
under the knife. So it tells you a lot about

(18:35):
I kind of sometimes read people's faces, rightly or wrongly,
about these are the decisions you've made, Like you've decided,
you know that three hundred dollars that it might cost
me four injectables is worth putting there. And it's becoming
almost code for we used to say well kept or
well preserved, well maintained maintenance. It's it's about maintenance. It's

(18:56):
kind of become codified for all kinds of things. It's
really interesting because back to whether or not you can
discuss it. Of course she can discuss.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Chris Jenna wants you to discuss.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say, she's
a really interesting example because she's in this era of
new disclosure very much where she's like, here's the number
for my surgeon, good luck, you know, trying to get
in the Kardashians in general, who are very influential in
beauty standards, as we know, have become after being you know,
a long time of Saya Kylie being oh, no, I've
done nothing. I don't know what you mean. I just

(19:26):
got good at contouring. In twenty twenty five is really
open about saying no, I did this and this, and
I had this many meals in my lips, and I
did this and blah blah blah. So the age of
disclosure is real. But the question of whether it's okay
that I'm sitting there looking at these all these interesting
women of different ages and demographics and ethnicities on this

(19:47):
show and I'm thinking about how much effort they've put
into aging. If that's okay or not, I think still
depends on whether or not you're critiquing the actual woman.
Like I wouldn't feel comfortable sitting here or on social
media or anywhere going Betty looks like she's gone too far.
Sally looks like she doesn't give a shit, you know,
like it's still I think to the individual, woman feels

(20:10):
like about a cudgel.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
You can critique my deep plant facelift all you want.
I think the surgeon did remarkable work. So holy.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
The beauty of working at Mamma Mia is that we
are surrounded by generations, different generations of women, and so
we're sitting here talking about the Golden Bachelor through a
lens of us growing up in a time where we
were taught to judge women very harshly on a range
of things, aging being one of them. So we thought
we'd ask the women at Mamma Mia how they're feeling
about watching the Golden Bachelor and about seeing this group

(20:40):
of older women put themselves forward like this.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
And this is what they had to say.

Speaker 6 (20:45):
I mean, firstly, he's pretty good looking, but I think
it just gives us like a little bit of hope.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
I don't know, I seem in future and it's bright
at this point.

Speaker 6 (20:52):
I just think it's like wholesome and yeah, I just
want to say if men ever changed.

Speaker 8 (20:57):
Okay, So my mum is divorced now and she's the
most beautiful person in the whole world. And so watching
women of her age demographic fine love is just so
beautiful and wholesome, and it gives me home for her.

Speaker 7 (21:10):
It feels a lot more genuine For some reason, when
the person is over sixty, I just instantly believe that
they are actually in it for love and not fame
or Instagram followers. I think that makes for a much
more heartfelt, engaging show.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
I just think there personifies that manly, gentlemanly energy that
we don't see as much from men our age, So
it's quite refreshing to watch.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Now.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
I feel like a terrible human because not even one
of those women mentioned what those women look like.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
But isn't it interesting that the words like wholesome come
up a lot?

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I asked am Vernam Amelia, and I said, what do
you think about the Golden Bachelor? And she said, all
those women look cute, which is the word I hate
the most for describing grown up, wise people have lived alife.
They look cute, and I want to have a cup
of tea with them. And I'm like, oh, I am
entirely looking at this through my own insecurities.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Well we all are. I mean, I think another thing
that comes up through those vox pops is the idea
that young people are looking for love, perhaps often more
than older people, and they're looking at it through the
lens of will I find love? How do I find love?
You're looking at it through the lens of what should
my face look like? We're all bringing our own insecurities
to the table.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Terrible, But I want to be clear that having watched
the show, like as well as those women all looking
very different, as I've said many times, they're every bit
is varied, as the women on dating shows always are.
There's like a villain, you can see her already. There's
somebody who never gets picked and wants to get picked,
like all of the usual suspects are there, just in
a grown up form, which is great because that's one

(22:41):
of the things I always want to shove home, is
that not every woman who has reached a grown up
ages I like to call it, is completely sane and
wise and lovely and never has too many champagnes and
never says the wrong thing, Like where every bit is messy,
really is the younger ones.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
To be fair, I was just looking at I'm thinking,
how can they still get around in heels at that age?
Like I haven't worn a heel in like ten years now.
I don't understand. It's so good on you for having
like good Achilles, well done. Are you experiencing an October slump? Well,
we'll find out what you can do about it. So friends,

(23:20):
despite the warmer weather approaching and the promise of some
long summer days and end of year festivities ahead, we
here in Australia are currently experiencing a phenomenon known as
the October slump.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Now the TLDR on.

Speaker 4 (23:31):
The October slump, also sometimes referred to as the October slide,
is that we're in a position on the calendar with
the end of year looking very much inside, but like
the crush of work and tasks and home related things
that need to be completed by December, and the ramping
up of activities, maybe like your work functions, kids things,
partners functions, it can sometimes feel like you're clawing your

(23:54):
way to the finish line, you know, like your all
raggedy fingernails hanging on to the edge of your sanity.
And if you do want to delve into this little
bit more, the Quickies Done excellent episode about this is
also an article that we can link in our show
notes that our mate Analyst Todd wrote about it as well,
and so that's where we've find ourselves in October, although
for me it is slightly different because it's my birthday month,
so it is a month of celebration. However, I am

(24:17):
maybe pretty sure that this might be where I am
at despite my birthday celebrations coming, because I have also,
on top of all of this, added a house move
into the mix, that we all know is one of
the most stressful things you can do in your life.
And so I just want to know from you too quickly,
because I do have some solutions or potential solutions to
this October slump experience, but I want to know how

(24:38):
the both of you are feeling at this point in
the year. Amelia, are you experiencing an the October slump
that you're aware of.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I've been feeling a lot of ambient anxiety, not least
because socially, I feel like we've already gotten to the
point where it's like, are we going to see each
other before Christmas?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
And I guess earlier all the time.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And it's kind of like a friendship test. I just
want to say, though, why is moving house truly stressful
because I remember when I was just starting out in
the world as a young adult and I needed to
pack up my belonging move and people told me that
old adage that moving house is one of the three
most stressful things that can happen to you. The other
two are death and divorce. I think I get death

(25:20):
and divorce, But like every time I move house, I
am surprised by how gobsmackingly awful it is, and it's
like I never learn the lesson.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Yeah, there is something truly heinous about leaving a property
and having to take every single item that you own
put it into a box, only to take it out
of the same box at the other end and put
it in a new location.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
It's so dumb, Like I.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
Wish I could just like light a match and walk
away and start over because it's so much hassle.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
But yeah, god, it is truly the worst.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I want to move house three times in one year,
and every time. This is where having a bit of
a goldfish memory helps, right, is that every time I'd
be like, no big deal, no big deal, no big deal.
Every time it was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
I think our brains tell us that to protect us,
because if we remembered how bad it was. We wouldn't
have a property market. Everyone would just be living in
the same place that they grew.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Up in whatever anyway, but I derailed us.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yes, I am feeling it, and I thought it was
mostly because of this social anxiety about making sure that
I somehow see everyone like I'm the pope or something.
I don't know, But Holly, do you feel that I do?

Speaker 2 (26:28):
But I'm fighting it. So one of my least favorite
things in the world. And this irritates some of my friends.
I hate feeling like time is rushing past me, so
I will often refuse to make plans too far in
advance because.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
You're so enigmatic.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
I'm not. It's just that my nicole friends. So my
friend Penny, for example, who's the chief Nicole in my life,
she is already saying to me, next year, are we
going away in April? Can I book this day in
what about we're doing in the Winter's possible?

Speaker 1 (26:56):
And fanning ahead?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
And I'm like, do not live my life like will
leaving her on red?

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Is that what you're doing? Like you're just like not
responding leave her on red?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
But I literally say to her, I'm like, I don't
want to wish my life away, like if I'm thinking
about next so I.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
Hate Oh my god, Holy stop disrespecting the fact that
you have a Nicole.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
Not everyone has one. They are like gold my friend.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I love my Nicole and she is amazing, but it
makes me deeply stressy to be planning Christmas in September.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Clai, You're a Nicole, right, I'm getting that vibe.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
I am not in Nicole, I am not even close.

Speaker 4 (27:33):
But I have some of the best Nicoles in my
I am going away next week to the Gold Coast
with my very favoritist Nicole, who's organized every damn thing
for me, given me the dates, and even organized my
birthday dinner for me on Friday night, like amazing.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
But my point about this is that you don't have
to buy into the panic that it's nearly the end
of the year, because it actually isn't nearly the end
of the year. There are still two I can't count.
There are still two months and two weeks or something
to go to the end of the year. That's ages.
Like if you thought about two months in another.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Cama formadical skills in the context of twelve months, it's
nothing and I'm not.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
But like if you if you would go now, I
mean that said she's fancy, she can do math. It's
all I mean, Amelia. Is that? All I mean is
that if you thought about two months in another way,
like if you were going on holiday for two months,
that would seem like a really long time. Do you
know what I mean? You can play mind games on
yourself for instead of going, oh my god, it's only
two months till Christmas, you could be like, imagine if

(28:30):
I was going to Europe for two months, I'd be like,
that is the longest holiday of all time. So what
I'm saying is don't let yourself slide. That is true.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
But what if you have a conversation with a friend
who says, like I caught up with a friend not
long ago and I said, I was just on the
phone and I said, should we catch up? And she goes,
I don't have a free weekend now until December something
or other, And.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
I was like, oh, okay.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
And the same has happened to a lot of my
other friends, Like they are fully solidly booked every weekend
until the end of the year, Like it's done, the
calendar is full, the appointments are set like there is
not a lot of wiggle room towards this part of
the year.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
But my point is is that, and this is something
I'm working on right. I don't believe you have to
always buy into everybody else's panic. So if it's really
stressing you out to think it's ten weeks till Christmas
and oh my god, the year is almost over. And
I said that this year I was gonna X y
Z and I haven't done it, so I'm a failure
and oh my god, it's like, actually no, there's still

(29:25):
however many weeks left and we've established I don't know,
and I feel like sometimes we just need to like
breathe in and go all right. It's not like I
have to throw the baby out with the by thought
which brings me to a substack that we were talking
about today. That's like what to do if you feel
like life is passing you by, because I feel like
that is kind of what this end of your panic

(29:46):
is about. It's like, oh my god, it's all just
happening again, and I reckon, you can grab onto the reins.
Was there anything in that that spoke to you?

Speaker 4 (29:53):
There is so this substack was written by Alex Mothers.
He's a productivity expert, and you're right. The title is
ten things to do Today If you feel life is
passing you by.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Can you imagine having a productivity expert in your life?

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Side note Nicole le Yes, Oh my god, they should
have Nicole in their job time.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
All right, I'm not going to go through the whole ten,
but here are some highlights if you want to pull
your brain out of October slump mode and stop getting
caught up in the panic. As Holly says, so first
of all, we're going to start small. Make a commitment
to creating one new habit in a key life area.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Pick one.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
It can be anything, health, money, relationships, adventure, whatever you like.
Focus in on one thing you can change or give
you an example. This time last year, when I was
experiencing the October slump, I decided to do fifty squats
every day while I brush my teeth.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
In the morning. Oh my good, well done.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Now.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
I made that decision because I was very aware by
them that I'm in perimenopause and I'm worried my bones
they are about to turn to dust and my muscles
are going to waste away until I'll be one of
those elderly ladies who get stuck on the toilet and
has to call someone to come and get them up.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
So you're going to say, I'm well aware that I'm
chasing a fat ass.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Row but.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Because that's why the Kardashians talk about squats a lot, web.

Speaker 4 (31:06):
Sorry, I mean, I am also trying to my Kardashian curves.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
But unfortunately I don't feel like at this stage that
is possible without a BBL.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
But I twelve months on from that point, I am
still doing my fifty squats, and they get easier and easier,
and now it's become a habit that I've come to
almost weirdly enjoy. I do not enjoy exercise, not in
any way, shape or form. I have to sneak it
in where I can, but this has become habit now.
So as soon as I've put the toothpaste on the toothbrush,
my brain's all right, squat time and I'm doing it.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Number Two.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
You can connect with someone you've been avoiding. I mean,
like a friend, family member, colleague. You're not avoiding them
because you don't like them, it's just because you haven't right,
So you haven't made the time, and then all of
a sudden time has passed, and now you're wondering if
you should or shouldn't reach out because you don't know
how they'll feel.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
This was my favorite of the tips. It really spoke
to me, and it reminded me of some excellent advice
I got recently. I have a friend who let's say,
my friend is in politics. My friend is not Kevin.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Right, it's Alboux right, it's out.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, friend is in American politics, and he gave me
some advice. He's really good because he's in politics at
making sure everyone in his life feels like they are
seen by him and like he's caring about them. And
he told me that his advice is when you are
reaching out to someone that you haven't spoken to in
a while, it can be really scary for you, and
it can also be quite intimidating for the person you're

(32:31):
reaching out to because they start getting worried. If you
send them a text and say can we talk tomorrow,
They're like, oh my god, what's happened? Is there something wrong?
So he said to kind of just break the ice
between the two of you, you should just text someone
and say hey, can I get your advice on something tomorrow?
Can I call you at ten?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
That's coolness?

Speaker 1 (32:49):
And he says it doesn't matter. You don't actually need
advice on anything. And so I tried this out. I
texted someone who I've been meaning to text for a
long time, and I said, can I get your advice
on something? They write back immediately because they feel flattered
that they're not worried. They're like, yeah, they feeling important too,
really important and valued. And I called my friend who
I hadn't spoken to in a while. I just made
it up something that I needed advice on. Guess what

(33:11):
she gave me great advice. So I also got some
advice there I didn't even know I needed, and I've
just found it really helpful, amazing.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
All right, well here's the message to you right now.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
If you are listening to this and you're feeling October slumpy,
just hit pause on this. Don't leave us. You'll come
back to this podcast in a second. But hit pause, immediately,
get your phone. Text that person right now, Okay, right
this very second, exactly what Amelia told you.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Can I get some advice from you tomorrow?

Speaker 4 (33:36):
It's a weight off, and you aren't thinking about that person,
whether they're mad at you or not, and you have
a clear conscience.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
This is all very good advice, but you're just giving
me a lot more things to do. And there's a
different energy that needs to be embraced here. Friends, it's
the energy of nap. It is okay to do things
differently this year. Start now. You can't do it in December.
Is that when people start asking you everything. Just channel me,
Just channel.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Me the final quarter up.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
I love it enough this year. I'm not going to xyz.
Turn to your partner if you have one. Why don't
you organize the presence for the teachers, give them lots
of warning.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Oh well that's a tough one to hand over.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
But okay, whatever it is that always stresses you out
at this timeom ticklick. As we go into this massive rush,
it gets too late. Final quarter up energy, friends, don't
let yourself be overwhelmed. Hold onto the reins, be strong. No,
not going to do that. Maybe you could do that.
It's not too late, friends.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
It's not too late, So go and just shake off
the slump. Have a bit of a less panicked October.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
After the break, the topic that Holly and I begged,
begged our producers to talk about today.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Want unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
of the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Some people enjoy bird watching, some people like Trainspotting, Hollywayne right,
and I like tracking Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's child Apple. Oh.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
I'm shocked that Holly Wainwright is doing something connected with
Gwyneth Paltrow.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
This must be something new for her. But the thing
is that their daughter Apple is suddenly everywhere. It's uncanny.
So let me explain that the various places she's been
popping out recently. First of all, a band named Jade Street,
which is an la indie rock duo, is releasing its
third single next week. Now that wouldn't otherwise be something

(35:39):
this show, but Apple Martin is singing on the song,
and the consensus in the office is that we kind
of like the song. It's called Satellites.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
We Ussie. Oh, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's very cold play, very Chris, did you catch that
guide you home there, I've gone deep on that. That
has to be an allusion to this iconic line from
Coldplays Fix You. I can't listen to this song without crying,

(36:18):
so we have to end it, and I have to
stop the song. So the twenty one year old Apple
made her debut as a model as well. She does
a lot of different things at Chanell's Paris Fashion Week
show in twenty twenty three, me too, And she has
just posed for Gaps Fall Down and campaign with her mother.
And she is also the face of the British brand
self Portrait.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Have you seen those cute little Q and A she's
been doing in therese Yes, she is very busy.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
All of us are very busy. And what fascinates me
about this is this strategy of building a star that
we are seeing here in real time. Why is Apple
Martin suddenly everywhere? I assume this is some kind of
concerted plan.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
Can I interrupt us for one second when you say
Apple Martin is everywhere? I feel like your algorithms are
slightly different to mine, because today was the first time
I'd realized Apple Martin was doing anything. I knew that
she was a child of theirs, but I did not
know what she was doing or doing.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Now you know how you said you do fifty squats
while brushing your teeth. Collie and I exchanged text about
abrama rushing our teeth. Who's to say which one is better?
It's true.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
There is no question that the culture, and not only
our obsession, is suddenly trying to thrust her upon us. Now.
I think it's all about the magic number twenty one.
That's what I think, right, Because if you have read,
as Amelia and I have the Gwyneth Pultrow biography by
Amy Odell, which last week Gwyneth referred to as a

(37:38):
hack job, which is a whole other conversation that we
will have off Mike, you would know that Gwyneth from
a very young age at school, wanted to be famous.
She wanted to be in movies. She wanted to act.
Her mum was an actress, her dad was a director.
So she was at what we would term a Neppo
Baby two and show. She was appearing. She was turning
up at her mom's theater, you know, summer theater, Stock place,

(37:59):
and appearing in the plays, and she was trying to
get parts in movies. When she was at UNI in
California when she was supposed to be studying, and her
parents tried to hold her back to a point until
she was an adult to enter the game, but she
jumped in a bit early, didn't she. I have a
theory that Gwinny and Chris, and Chris is a sensible
Englishman could clearly see Apple's stop tentral from a very

(38:21):
young age. Let's face it, she looks like a famous person.
I've only been.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Sounds like a famous person. She hands so much like Chris.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
She suddenly looks ubiquitously familiar. And even those of us
who keep tabs on her Claire, I'm like you, I
haven't really been seeing her around that much until now.
She suddenly looks like I've been seeing her for ages.
I think they told her you have to wait to
her twenty one.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
That makes sense because she turned twenty one in May,
and that's the age in the US where you can drink,
so it's very much like the mark of adulthood. And
she has been studying. She's at university, studying pre law
at Vanderbilt, which is a quite prestigious university in the
American South. She has said, my parents did a really
good job of telling me that I'm not entitled to
things that I need to work. I think that's a

(39:02):
very feasible theory. I want to complicate things, though, because
we can agree that her singing is really hauntingly familiar
to Chris's and is quite catchy and gordon, and she
certainly looks great in the bias cut dresses that she's
been modeling for self portrait. But she is modeling a
very different type of NEPO baby to others. She is

(39:22):
trying to show that she works very hard, that she
is getting there through discipline and through a concerted strategy.
There's another NEPO baby coming up through the ranks. Her
name is romy Mars. She is the daughter of Sophia
Coppola and the Phoenix singer Thomas Mars. She is eighteen,
so interesting age difference. There's still very much a child
in terms of the American markers of adulthood, and she

(39:43):
is completely unabashed about how her life is better than yours.
She's released this very super catchy single, it's called a Lister.
It's about flying in private jets, swimming in gorgeous pools.
I'm just going to play a little bit of it
for you.

Speaker 6 (39:55):
Now, I'll say I'll be bored with everything that I've got,
get out of fancy clothes right after they get the
show and we create things from Masanna Kna flying REGI
just to feel something.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
This song's going to make me cry for very different reason.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
Fixed it's throwing shades.

Speaker 4 (40:11):
Remember when her did Baby came out and said like
her mum never gave her anything designer when she was
growing up, and how hard life was for her.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
That's what that feels like.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
That was very catchy, though I enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Different great song, and she's just got a completely different
vibe to Apple. She originally became famous for a TikTok
in which she talked about being grounded because she attempted
to charter a helicopter to go and visit her friend,
which is relatable. And now she's very famous for a
TikTok dance that she filmed with Jacob A. Laudie where
they seem to be on the top of some kind
of Parisian skyscraper they're dancing, has more than thirty million views.

(40:47):
Be right back goodly, she makes me feel bad. The
thing about Apple is I think Apple's trying to position
herself as a different kind of nepo baby to that
Romy Mars model of Yeah, my life is great and
I'm going to tell you about it.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, but there's nothing new about daughters of actresses being actresses.
I think you're right, Like Romi is playing into a
bit more of that, like billionaire TikTok vibe, isn't she
We talked about Becka Bloom and that kind of look
at all my amazing stuff, And it's clear that Apple
wants to be. Well, what's interesting about that is, as
I said to Amelia when we're coming in, the gen
X in me is like, so does she want to

(41:22):
be an actress or does she want to be a
singer or does she want to be a model, Because
you used to have to pick one, right, But that's
not the way it works anymore. Clearly, Apple wants to
be all those things. The thing I find fascinating is
that Apple Martin would have grown up seeing her mom,
in particular her dad, everybody's kind of nice about generally,
but seeing her mom being slammed, mocked, derided for being

(41:47):
all the things that now Apple seems to be portraying
being a skinny blonde privilege.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
It girl.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Essentially, yeah, being an it girl, a beautiful woman who
comes from privilege and then strategically used those advantages to
build a career. That's what a lot of people slag
Gwyneth Paltrow of for all the time. You might imagine
that if you grow up seeing that, you might think,
I don't want any part in that. I don't need
to do it for the money. I don't need to
have people writing about me, talking about me, slagging me off.

(42:15):
I could just live a nice, quiet life, but so
few do. It's really interesting to me that you would
be people are going to mock Apple Martin mercilessly. We
saw that because that beautiful song you played. She performed
it live at a gig in Nashville, and the video
of that has gone all over social media, and her

(42:37):
vocals don't sound as great as they do on that song.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
You know.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
I mean, it depends on your viewpoint, but she is
already being roundly mocked for being talentless and for being privileged,
and she will copy it. And I'm interested in this
sort of decision to do that when you're aware, whereas
a lot of famous people who become famous from nowhere,
so that you know their dad was a carpenter and
their mom was a teacher, but they wanted to be
an actor or a pop star. They'll say, nothing can

(43:02):
prepare you for fame, Nothing can prepare you for that spotlight.
It is a shock when it happens to you, exactly,
Oh my goodness, we can barely walk outside. But like
these kids do know, they know exactly what's going to happen,
and yet they want to do it. So that's interesting
in itself.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
Can I just say, what a time to be alive
that I've experienced second generation NEPO babies, Like this is fine,
that's such a good point. I do love a NEPO baby.
I mean, let's face it, though, these kids aren't the
first to step into the family business, Like you know,
if your family runs any kind of trade or store,

(43:40):
even like people step into their parents' shoes all the time,
Like you know, if your dad's a plumber, you end
up being a plumber.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Like no one kind of blinks an eye.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
But when a kid of an entertainer also becomes an entertainer,
it's almost like we're going like, how dare they step
into that space? Like they're already ready for it.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
I'm not shocked. I'm just amazed that they want that
level of attention.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
They're used to it, right, There've been NEPO babies from
the moment they were in the world, and the fact
that they called her Apple was spread on headlines from
one end of the world to the other. Like, they
are so used to this attention already, I would be
surprised if they have not had many conversations Gwyneth, Chris
and Apple and the other one. There's a fourth one
of them, right, there's another child, Moses.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
He's still at UNI. He has to wait till he
turns twenty one.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
Like, I'm sure that they've had many conversations about the
choices that they're going to make if they do step
into the same limelight as their parents do. And I'm
sure that they are well armed to handle it, and
arguably are better armed to handle it than someone who
does come out of obscurity into the spotlight all of
a sudden, because they've grown up with it and understand
it so.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Like I get it.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
Sure, they don't want to cop the shit, no one does,
but they're used to it in a way, and I
think they're fore armed and forewarned well, they definitely have
a role model for it. So Gwyneth Paltrow is well
known for being massively criticized, of course, and for she
has this I don't care energy about it, and some
people like that and some people don't. The crucial distinction
that needs to be made between your parent being a

(45:04):
plumber and your parent being a movie start, though, is there.
You don't hear a great deal plumbing. It's so high
to break into, Like you can go and do an
apprenticeship and become a plumber, like, whereas this world is
so rarefied, it's so hard people like to get into.
It's had anyway. The last point I want to make
is there are some only a few children of famous

(45:24):
people who do not step into their shoes. Bruce Springsteen
has a son who's a firefighter. One of Anna Wintour's
kids is a psychiatrist. Gordon Ramsey's daughter is a police officer.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Okay, problem with the Anna Winter one is that Anna
Wintre's ex husband, who is the father of the psychiatrist,
is a psychiatrist, so he's actually absent. Howard Stern's another
good example. He has two daughters, one is a rabbi
and one is a social worker.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
So some of them do go no, I don't want
to do that out loud as a massive thank you
to all of you for being here with us today.
As always, remember you can watch this on YouTube if
you would like to see us responding to the fabulous
sulcit tones of Apple Martin.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Or my deep plame facelift.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Oh yeah, if you want to see a steep flame
facelift and assess whether or not I could be on
the Golden batchel if you're looking for something else to
listen to. On yesterday's Subscribe episode, we tackled some listener
dilemmas including is Laser out now that Kim k is
bringing the bush back? And what are the rules around
group office gifts? And can you ask for a refund?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
And don't forget to listen to Parenting out Loud, which
drops every week on a Saturday. In our last episode,
we talked about the very Australian problem with Halloween and
whether we're actually all missing the point with it, and
plus somehow Henley Bieber has become our accidental parenting guru.
You need to listen to find out why, so find
it in its own feed by searching parenting out loud

(46:50):
and tap follow so you don't miss an episode.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Friends.
A massive thank you to our team who help us
put this show together every single day.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Goodbye, bye bye.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Mamma Mia is the very best best way to
do it. There's a link in the episode description.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Exact Reason The Golden Bachelor Highlights A New Class Divide

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

The Exact Reason The Golden Bachelor Highlights A New Class Divide

Stuff You Should Know