October 16, 2025 • 49 mins
Ever heard of 'Chatfishing’? Believe us, it's a thing, people, and may make you look at every message you receive in a whole new light. The trend is now to use ChatGPT for banter on dating apps and it’s leading to some awkward in-person dates.
The bus tour you did through Europe in your twenties has now been replaced with sunrise yoga and morning run clubs. We discuss why Gen Z is too sensible for that kind of wild fun with a bunch of strangers.
Do you treat your friends like family? And should you? There are pros and cons which we unpack.
Plus, the 'cunty bob' is out, and long hair is officially back in as we enter the Rapunzel age. But is long hair now a flex or an act of personal rebellion?
And all our best reccos including a must-listen podcast, a book Em wants you to read and a go-to 80’s beauty product that's back.
Support independent women's media
Jessie thinks you should try the Matifying Primer by Laura Mercier OR the Glowy Primer by Go ToHolly wants you to listen to This is Why We Fight and The GiftEm wants you to read Very Impressive for your Age by Eleanor Kirk
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: What Did You Do Yesterday?
- Listen: "A Comedian Hurt My Feelings"
- Listen: Every Thought We Had About The Victoria Beckham Documentary
- Listen: The Victoria Beckham Documentary Is Hard To Watch
- Listen: The New High Status Boyfriend
- Listen: The Problem With Compliments
- Listen: The Couple Who Need To Stay Away From Each Other<
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hello and welcome out Louders friends to our Friday show.
It's what women are talking about on Friday, the seventeenth October.
I feel like I haven't reminded the out louders for
a while, although I know they know that on Fridays
we don't mess with the real world. We don't do news,
we don't do doom scrolls.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
That's why I'm here on a Friday.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Why can we bring them on Friday? We want to
send you into the weekend with good vibes, something interesting
to think about, and of course recommendations. So who else
is with me here today?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm Jesse Stevens. I don't know why I'm here for
the good.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Vibes, but I you're here to balance the groad.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We don't want to get me here here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You're bringing a lot of vibes. You've got all these
people inside you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, did you know you have a little part
of his arms and six legs and maybe two penises?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I might not be getting a lot, but I have
two penises inside. Who's winning?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
In case anyone is confused, Jesse Stevens is pregnant with twins.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
And your advertisers of today's show are really upset.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And I'm m Burnham. I don't have any penises inside
me currently currently right now, I don't know if you
to our episode about what we.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Did yesterday, That's all I'm gonna say. Anyway, here's what
made our agenda for this Friday. Oh, friends, they're just
like family, aren't they. Well, apparently if you're treating your
friends like family, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Plus, the bust tour you did through Europe in your
twenties is dead. Young people have been clear about what
they want and it is very different to the travel
of the.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Past and something to read, something to listen to, and
something to slap on your face.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It is our recommendations.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But first, chat fishing. It's a thing that's happening on
dating apps, as if the modern world wasn't making dating
hard enough? Am I right?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I'm about to send this to you, my friend. Now
we're having to deal with the fact that all that
chatty banter you might be having with that person you
matched with is really just you talking to a robot.
Do you know what chat fishing is? And have you
encountered it?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I do know what chat fishing is. I'm annoyed that
I wasn't the person who came up with our time
because it's so good, I know, So what is it?
So it's basically where people on dating apps are now
using AI so like chatchpt to kind of have the
conversation for their dates.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So when you match, you usually do a bit of
back and forth right on the ass, like I'm going
to make sure we're all normal, a friendly banter, Oh
how are you? How are you?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And they're getting the chatgypt to go.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
How are you? How are you? Have you ever used
chat jipyte as a little bit of a prompt for
like a what questions should I ask? How should I respond?
Does this make me look normal?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You absolutely know I have, well, not really in the
actual initial dating stages. I feel like I'm quite a
good speaker and I actually have a conversation with someone.
But I think I talked about in the podcast, I've
used chat gbt's services when things are going a bit m.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Is this guy ghosting me? You did once ask the
robot that.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And do you know if the robots can help with sexting,
because I've been in situations in the past where I've
gone I'd like to send a sext, but I don't
know how, Like I don't know what words to you, I.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Don't know how. I don't think she is doing I
can teach you, so can I. We'll get to Jesse's
sexual problems in the moment. But the example that I
saw in this article I read is that a woman
had been having really good banter with a guy that
she wanted to meet. He'd been quite emotionally intelligent and
like talking about attachment styles, and they've been having a
proper life exchange. And then she goes to the pub
(04:11):
to meet him for that in real life date and
the guy can barely streng it well, not that, but
the chemistry is not there. He's not the guy talks
about attachment styles. The banter is gone, and she realizes, oh,
he was asking chat GPT for like good banter.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, but she also slept with him, and she felt
as though she slept with him on the basis of
their banter and just put his personality down to nerves
and then kind of went, oh, no, I've been completely
like essentially catfish.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
She went on a second date and she's like, this
is definitely I've been chatfish. But I also wanted to
read out the message she received, like the first, the
very first message she got from this man. It said,
I've been reading a bit about attachment styles lately. It's
helped me to understand myself better, DASH and the type
of partner I would be looking for. Have you ever
looked at yours? Do you know what your attachment style is?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Would you hope?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Are you saying I.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Am blocking that man because he just used chat GBT
to ask me a question?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And what was your tell?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Okay, firstly, men talking about attachment styles, you don't know,
you don't know the dash is a big tael And
also two questions instead of one or zero questions.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Ah, that's clearly a robot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Is there any thing in doing about a guy maybe
using chat GPT to help improve his banter?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I would think so trying the fact that you really
want to try and you really want to sleep with me.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
But there was a man in the article who said,
I want to start a conversation that feels meaningful from
the beginning, so I can hook the other person in
which sounds quite like fine, but also I don't want
to spend too much time on it, and I'm like,
that's so ugly the problem.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
You know, it shows tail as old as time, right,
because there's a very famous play from you oldie times
called Serrano de Burgrak, which was turned into a classic
eighties comedy with Steve Martin and Darrel Hannah. And what
that's about is a guy who's like not articulate, but
he's really hot. Woman really likes him, and so hot
guy gets nerdy guy to write all the love letters.
(06:13):
I feel like this is a plot and lots of
rom coms, and so hot guy gets nerdy guy to
write all the love letters. She falls in love with
the love letters, but when she gets together with the guy,
he's just like monosyllabic. This has been around a long time,
but now it's back with an AI twitch.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Except in that scenario we have the option to fall
in love with the nerdy guy, because.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's what happens in the rom com.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
We can't fall in love with chat GBT.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I mean, some of us are, but I've had a
lot of men use chat GBT in messaging me, except
they're a bit not good at it. So one time
I had this guy, I had something in my profile
that said, how I don't like Jim martiniz I know
you love a Jim Martini hole. And I got a
message on this going saying, hey, am lovely to match
with you. I have to admit I really like Jim
(06:56):
Martini's That whole message was in quodes.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Oh, so do you think that he put your profile
into chattipt the prom but what's the good firstach to
this girl?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And it probably gave him like three options options and
you just copied and paste with the quote marks.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Maybe though, you know, like the woman who wrote this article,
maybe you could have sex with the real guy and
then all your relationship yeh, could be conducted over text
with his better robot self and that could be quite satisfying.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
It's like the movie Herb with work in Phoenix in
it art. The bus tour you did through Europe in
your twenties is dead, and I feel very sad. Now
who here did one of these tours? Holly Well?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I did not, because English people don't do them, no,
but I am adjacent to them because one of my
first jobs I worked for and why I ended up
in Australia. I worked for this magazine in London that
was like a free magazine for Aussie's and Kiwi travelers,
and that was a massive thing. This is like before
the internet really, and Kintiki and top Deck were our
biggest advertisers and that was the thing for all the
(08:07):
assi's and kiwis to do. And proper travelers in inverted
commas were a bit snooty about them, but everybody knew
that Kentiki was a good time.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Okay, So I have done one Kentucky tour, which I
did probably like twenty four or something, and I did
a Greek island hopping thing. It was about fourteen days.
And then I did a top Deck tour six weeks,
six weeks, nineteen countries camping. No, you did, I did
when I was nineteen.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
That is a big commitment. That's a long time. What
if you hate everyone?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, And that was I reckon. There were forty peoples.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Give me a time scale of how long ago this was.
Because the thing that when I was reading all this,
obviously it's not my world anymore, and I was kind
of like, oh, I didn't know those things still existed,
but they've been popular for really.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, so that would have been about thirteen years ago.
And I had never been overseas, finished school, and when
all I want is to go overseas and I want
to see the world like I have never experienced it.
And so you just raw dog nineteen countries and I
just did nineteen countries, camped in Paris, camped all over
the place. Let's go to Poland for a day, like.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
This is early naughties and if this is you.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So would have been like, let's go twenty nineteen. Oh yeah, yeah,
of course twenty nineteen. I mean two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Nine, so late naughties. Sorry, neither of us can do math.
You're obviously younger. Again, do you and your mates do
Kenticky tours?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
A few of my friends in high school went on Kenticky.
I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
When you launched an adult, you do your own thing.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Because they were they were like, no, no, no, I'm misunderstanding.
You were misunderstanding. I still cannot do things without my charge.
Twenty nine years old, I was around like seventeen turning eighteen,
which was like ideal time because I would have been eighteen.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
In Europe, I wasn't allowed because we were just hearing
of all these stories like it was a bit of fun, right,
but I can understand hesitation from parents.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And over that many days that you did it, there
would be whole relationships and break.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
There was someone who's married at the beginning and wasn't
it Oh it was anyway?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Tell me why? It was a bit of about them.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
So they are of course youth focus travel tours. They
are popular in Europe, Asia, the US, Canada, and they
are known for kating literally forty people ages eighteen to
thirty nine was generally the vibe until recently.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
There wouldn't have been anyone who was thirty four on
that trip.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I'm trying to no one married women. But the married
woman was thirty four? Why wasn't her husband there? And
she was getting with the boy from Manchester? I was nineteen.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, so the only very savvy young Englishman do this.
Because I was looking at the stats and Kentiki's about
eighteen to ninety percent Aussies, right, So if you're a
young hot mank union.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Oh they had a great time.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Is there an Australian version where there's like a bus
full of like English boys?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And then I can just.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes, they're definitely in that world too, and there are
lots of backpacker trips. I don't wuldn't know what they
were anymore, but they are. Yeah, they're definitely is the equivalent.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So they go through multiple cities or countries, and the
appeal really is that it's cheaper than you'd do it individually,
and for many Austria as they're a rite of passage.
But in an article that was published in the Sydney
Morning Herald last week, it alerted us to the end
of an era because ben groundwater rides. I worked on
those boozy europe coach tours. I'm sad to see them go.
(11:24):
And they haven't gone out of business, but this thing
of having a fifty passenger coach that goes around like
a big bus, like a big bus done. We're done
with the bus. He writes that the camping tour has
effectively been dead for years, which I didn't know. And
it's all about small group journeys. So maximum eighteen passengers.
Top deck has lowered their maximum age. Eighteen year olds
(11:46):
don't want to be with thirty nine year olds anymore.
Thirty two is in mass. I've aged out, You've nearly half,
and the tour is generally.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Spreading out of time.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
You have to tell your mom, I'm sorry mom, And
now they spend longer in each location. So this has
all been driven by jen Z being clear about what
they want. They do not want a boozy Europe trip.
They'll say, I'll have a glass of why not too,
But I don't want to get drunk in Croatia. Oh
come on. Part of the Kentique offering is now Sunrise
(12:16):
yoga and morning run clubs that did not happen when
I was there.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
This what worries me about this Jesse is that small
group tours are really big for older people and older
women right Like, I've been on them. They're fantastic. I've
been on someone with the family and they're all about
Sunrise yoga and rum clubs, and it's like, why are
the young people doing the same things as the old people.
I know?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, this is interesting because it proves your point. Gen
Z is also all about food. So none of this
to a cook where he makes you a burger and
you sit on your fold out camp chair in rows,
is that what you were doing? Yes, they want to
eat locally, so they want more freedom and they also
want to sort out their own itineraries. Because TikTok has
already told them where they want to go. They don't
(12:58):
need their guide to tell them where they go.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
The research is a lot easier than it was back
in your day.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
And when I went, I went, I want to go
to the Louver and that Eiffel Tower thing and blah
blah blah, because I've seen it in my lonely planet.
Now they want to go to a vintage shop that
they saw and a cafe, and it's not as kind
of mainstream as my thing would have been.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Like I was talking about how when I was lucky
enough to go to Europe this summer with my family,
and the main characterness of the instagrammers everywhere was very apparent.
That's kind of this, right, Yes, Like you want to
find your place to get your perfect pictures and find
your experiences that you've all seen online. You don't want
to necessarily have the tour guide guy going We're all
(13:42):
going to my mate Dave's cafe.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
No, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's like no one wants to take a picture of
Dave's croissant.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
No.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And they also don't want to have their days all
organized where we do this, this, and this. They want
more freedom. There are some real upsides to this. But
what do you think is lost with this kind of
evolution within youth travel.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I think the best thing about traveling when you're younger
is that you have stories to tell when you're older.
And I feel like they're not going to have any
fun stories to tell.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I've got something in their vintage shop, No, but they're
not going to be.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
If they get arrested in the vintage shop, then yes,
I'm all on board, because that's a good story. But
if you're just doing like the this is how I
traveled when I was younger. I was only able to
do like the safe types of travel, and I didn't
get to really like be a rebel, and I didn't
get to like sleep with men. I didn't get to
get drunk. And why you'm making up for I haven't
(14:33):
los cannon right now, but like I actually never when
I was traveling when I was younger, Like even when
I was twenty one, I just never drank ever because
I was so scared, because I was just told it
was really scary and dangerous and dangerous, and even like
it said in the Peace that they all started in London,
because like London was like English speaking and safe before
(14:53):
you just went into.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
You couldn't land in France, Oh oh my god, what
would you do? Too exotic? They don't even speak English,
which reminded me that travel has become so much easier
with maps and with translators on our phone. It just
means that that thing of being scared in a foreign
city went on and speaks the language you speak is
less of an issue.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I saw in this piece that an area that is
a growth area for these guys, though, is that older market.
And they're marketing them as reunion tours, so they're like
thirty five to forty.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Five trip, let's do it again.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, and you don't have to have been on the
tour before, but it's like, let's relive our youth. And
because of this was my world for quite a long time,
I worked in a backpack of travel journalism and stuff.
There's a certain kind of middle aged man now that
I know, and I mean Brent's a bit adjacent to this,
as much as I love him, like, most of his
conversation with his mates is still reminiscing about those adventures
(15:46):
that you were talking about. You know how you were saying,
you need the stories for when you're older. They still
spend a lot, and he was more of a Kombi
Van guy, you know, but the coombe Van guys and
girls are still dining out on those stories, like thirty
years later. And so I think if there was the
reunion tour, it's kind of like everybody going to see
(16:06):
Oasis and getting hammered, you know, or going to see
Take That and women taking their clothes off even though
they've got four teenagers at home. No shade. But it's
like this idea of very much reliving that part of you.
I think it's really interesting because we're always seeing these
stats about how gen Z drink less are generally more
sensible and aren't having as much sex.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It was just a bit messy. Yeah, like fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I think they are much tighter regulations, which is a
good thing. Yeah, it's definitely a good thing. But I
had a quick look at the social media pages for
some of these brands. Now if you go and look
at the instagrams, Now, there are lots of gorgeous hot girls,
you know, at various sites, but it's much more sanitized.
And I just think that that's probably a good thing.
But then I was thinking about it. I've got a
daughter who is heading you know, she's in a few years,
(16:53):
she'll be and I really want her to go and
travel when she's eighteen, like I really do. I think
Brent and I are both people who did a lot
of that when we were young, but I would probably
encourage her to do it on her own with a
mate for the reasons that Jess's just pointed out. You
can your phone tells you everything you go over, which.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Is exactly what I did. I went traveling with my
cousin and it was amazing. But I think because you're
put into an environment where you both have to fend
for yourselves at such a young age before you infend
for yourselves at home, you just automatically become more aware
of everything. Like you don't drink, you don't want to
go out, but like in the environment where you're just
(17:30):
following a schedule that everyone's doing and then you're just
jumping on and off of bus, you have like freedom
to do as much as you want. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
In defense of the tour, though, I think that there's
an intensity to traveling one on one with someone that
is diluted when there are other people around and when
you can meet them and hang out for relationships, for siblings,
for friends.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Did you go by yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
No, I went with a boyfriend when I was nineteen.
I went with Claire the other time, right, And that
was I think really good for both relationships because it
was fun to meet new people. I still am connected
with with a bunch of them. And I also think
that the value of a brilliant tour guide. There are
things that I was told by that guide in Paris
that I still remember that I will never read anywhere
(18:12):
on the internet that she just happened to know. And
I remember when I was in Tuscany a few years back,
TikTok organized our holiday and we turned up at these
hot springs. They were revolting, like TikTok lied. And that's
the thing is that TikTok can make something look beautiful
and then you give yourself a three sixty and go,
this isn't where I want to go. Like, there is
(18:34):
something about verified travel experts telling you where to go,
people who spend a lot of time there rather than
someone who just wanted a photo in a hot tub.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, it's invaluable I think to your point too, about
if there's a place where you're a bit too young
and a bit too green, if anything, to really be
excited about being out in the world. I remember we
used to go and do these questionnaires with backpackers. Wee
go and find a backpacker at Sydney Central or whatever
and be like, what's the hardest thing about traveling on
your own in Australia And they'd say doing my own washing, yeah,
(19:08):
because they've never lived at it like a backpack full
of two minute noodles. And you're just like, maybe you
need to live a little before you spread your wings
out louders in a moment, should you really treat your
friends like family?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
We have a listener dilemma and we need your collective
wisdom to help us and our partners UI solve it. Please,
here is the problem from our listener. I need some
perspective on a wedding dilemma that's left me feeling totally flat.
My friend, who I met when our sons became primary
school friends and who are still best mates, is getting married.
(19:50):
When she called to tell me she was sending a
wedding invitation, I was thrilled and pictured our shared table
with all our friends. I recently got back with my
partner after a couple of years apart, who she never
really hit it off with, and when I opened the
wedding invite, I noticed only my name was on it.
My friend mentioned she had strict numbers and no plus
(20:10):
ones because of catering costs, and I was okay with
that until I discovered I was the only person invited
from our entire friend group. The reception is cocktail style,
and all I can picture is myself standing alone, desperately
scanning the room, trying to find someone I know, and
just wishing my partner or at least one familiar friend
was with me. I can't shake the feeling that my
(20:30):
friend is sending a message by leaving my partner and
everyone else behind. I know I should feel honored to
be the chosen one, but instead I feel anxious and abandoned.
Am I being a spoiled sook for not wanting to
go to her wedding alone? The question is what do
you do next?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think it comes to the wedding day. You drink
as much champagne as you can and you just have
a good old time.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm with you, M with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I'm with you too. To be harsh, the wedding isn't
about you, dull.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
We have to jamaima kirk there. Yeah, yeah, thinking about
yourself too much? Yeah, I reckon that you are going
to have a great time. I have absolutely done wedding solo.
I totally get why she didn't invite your partner. I
don't think it's anything personal. It's just a plus one's
numbers issue, and I reckon like it sometimes it's a blessing.
Do not have anyone you know there? You get to
(21:21):
know other people and she'll make sure she seats you
around interesting people and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
And also it's one afternoon, you know what I mean.
I get it, even if it is awkward, and even
if you don't love it, it's a few hours of
your life. Go home early like you're there to support
your mate. I'm sorry, friend, I think that's what you
should do.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Out loud is what would you do next? Share your
thoughts in the mummea out loud Facebook group. Also, if
you have a dilemma, send it to us at out
loud at momamea dot com dot a you. We would
love to.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Help you, we need to talk about the word family,
as in who is, who isn't, and what the difference
is between people who are family and the people who
are not. Are your friends, for example, your family is
your workplace one big family. And if that's all true,
is it a positive thing? First of all, I want
(22:14):
to ask you too, do you consider some of your
friends to be family?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Really, no, I wish I did not one friend my
friends or my friends and my family is my family.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Well, as we're about to discuss Jesse, that might be very,
very healthy.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But then Mayor was my friend and now she's my family.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well, yeah, you're it's very complicate your situation.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It sounds like you're just making your friends your family.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Your situation is quite a play.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
How do I get in?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I trying to think of a complicated way. Yeahs yes,
it's definitely one of Jesse's brothers.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
That's the way.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
My friends are my family, I would say, so I
was not all of them. I feel like there's a
specific three maybe that I would consider family. But I
also don't know if they would consider me family.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I have to go both ways.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I think it probably does, But I want to talk
about what that means right, because the way that Jesse
just said, I wish I did. We all think that's
a really positive thing to say. I treat my friends
like family is a really positive thing. I definitely have
friends who a family. I think that also, the fact
that I live far from my family has meant at
times you build a family, you know, so I have,
particularly in Sydney, from the community where we had our
(23:23):
kids and stuff, we have like literally they call my
kids call am auntie and uncle like they are like family, right.
But we always say that as if it's a really
positive thing. And I recently read this substack that was
positing that you absolutely should not treat your friends like
family because family relationships, and obviously this is generalization, but
(23:45):
family relationships are often very boundaryless. You know, you expect,
for example, your family to do things for you that
you probably wouldn't ask a friend to do. You expect
them to put up with behavior from you that you
probably wouldn't expect a friend to. So if you were
really treating your friends like family, you might actually be
treating your friends quite badly. And I wondered, Jesse, if
(24:07):
you were thinking about it. Other things that you expect
from family that you just wouldn't expect from friends, like
from basic practical things like helping you move house at
the drop of a hat, to like putting up with
you being depressed about a breakup for a year. You
know what I mean? Like, what do you think about that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I think that the implication with the word family is
and I know this is not true for everyone and
they're a complicated, strained family dynamics, But for me, is
the word unconditional. My family love me because I exist.
My friends don't love me because I exist. My friends
love me because of the way I show up, or
(24:45):
because of certain qualities, or because of I feel as though,
and I don't know if this is necessarily healthy, but
it's like, my friendships aren't unconditional. They are very much
like and I've experienced friendship falling out so someone moves
to the other side of the world, or things change,
priorities change, whatever. I think I'm a better person to.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
My friends, yes, And that's the key to this.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, And I think that's important is that you show
up and you go. Like I suppose within families, you
play a role. They have a vision of who they
want you to be. Whereas you get to be completely
yourself sometimes with your friends, and it's like We're going
out to have a good time, and I'm gonna ask
these questions and I'm gonna look after you, and I
(25:27):
don't know, I find them simpler.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And do you feel like in that there's like an
implicit expectation though, that for your friends you have to
perform like a better version of yourself, because I think
that maybe that's where the line goes, you know, like
I think that real deep friendships you don't have to
perform like I can go and I do have some
friends I can go and sit on their couch like
(25:50):
no makeup, tracking pants and just winge about life, you
know what I mean. And then you have some friends
who are very much like metaphorically not necessarily literally you
put your lipstick on for them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
If you were having a big cry, who would you
call first? I know it's really hard because it's the
other side of the world and it's time difference. But
would you want to call your mum or would you
want to call your friend?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
My friend?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, see, I'd call my mum or I'd call Claire.
I think I'd go I feel like that's shit I'm
going to put on my family because I know they've
got time for it, and I would think twice before
putting that on a friend. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I kind of agree with you to an extent, but
like my closest friends here similar to you, whole have
family who are either overseas or interstate, and they're single
and they're here by themselves.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
And it was.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Only recently where I realized the privilege I had of
being able to go to my parents or my sister
for things, and then I realized that I had to
be that person for them, like things like moving, things
like heartbreak. I think that's my responsibility, as being their
kind of family person in where they're living, to do
(26:57):
for them because they don't have anyone else, and I
sometimes don't do the same thing to them, and I
don't think they would expect that either, because I have
my family here.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It's interesting because I think that the friendships that are
like I don't think that your friends being like family
should be the benchmark for all friendships, but I think
that there are some friendships that drift that way. Because
we talk a lot about how friendships are often the
most important relationships are among the most important relationships of
your life, and so they can go through phases just
like any other relationship. Like I was listening to an
(27:27):
episode of Sentimental Garbage with Carolina Donahue and Dolly Alderton,
and they talked about how when they first got together
as friends, every friend date was intense and it was
carnage and they were going to be out till two
in the morning and it was amazing. But then they
knew that when they had moved into a new era
of friendship, it was when they could just go around
and have take away pizza and be home by tent,
you know what I mean. Like, so it's like, I
(27:48):
think that the friends who become like family, they've moved
through that expectation phase.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
But you don't think that all like close friends should
go through that process because we do it for partners.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, but I think there's some beauty to having relationships
that are still important to you but do have quite
firm boundaries around them. Yeah, Like, when I interview women
who are older about their lives, they'll often say that
their friendships have morphed into you know, it will be
their girlfriends who sit beside them at their parents' funerals,
you know, who help them through those most difficult pots. Yeah,
(28:22):
and those kind of friendships are definitely family, I think.
But the thing that's interesting is that we hold that
family thing up as if it is the pinnacle, whereas
very often it's actually the sort of dysfunctional mess. Like,
as you say, Jesse, you can yell at your sister.
I'm not saying you do. I'm sure you never yell
at Claire ever, but like you can yell at her
(28:42):
or tell things about herself that she doesn't want to hear,
or put the knife in in a way just because
you're in a bad mood. You know, if you do
that with a girlfriend too many times, Yeah, she's.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Got family dynamics bring you enormous joy, but they also
inevitably bring you pain, right and whether that's that they're
irritating you, that they are just like triggering something in you.
My friendships at this stage in my life do not
bring me pain like any pain. They are just joy.
And it's not to say that serious things don't happen
in our lives, but we don't hurt each other maybe
(29:15):
in the same way. So there's a real simplicity to
my friendships that I value.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I want to bring it into the workplace quickly, because
for a while there it was really fashionable for workplaces
and businesses to say we're just like a big family,
or literally say welcome to the Coca Cola family. You
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're part of
that family now, and to use family as a positive
word in workplaces. But in recent times it's very much
(29:41):
been recast as being a red flag, Like if a
workplaces keeps telling you that their family, does that again
imply all those boundaryless things that we were just talking about.
And again, this is.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
A weird situation to discuss it because Jesse's literally family,
but in an ordinary kind of workplace, if they keep
I've heard it said for example like often hospitality workplaces
might be like families, or you know, any kind of intense,
high pressure situation, but that can often mean boundaries across
expectations are too high.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like what do you think do you think it's suspicious
if your boss you're telling you your family.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I think it's a way of saying your mother and
this connection and your loyalty to this business ought to
be unconditional. I think that's what you're saying whether it's
the hours or the expectations, or the way this person
treats you, or what your manager asks of you. I
think it's saying you ought to stay. And I've you know,
worked behind a bar where it was kind of like
(30:35):
we're all a family, and then when I start working there,
it was not like we're all a family. We just
all went our separate ways and we never really talked again.
Like it's just simply not like a family.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Also, don't say I'm your family and then like I
mess up and then you fire me, Like you can't.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Do that exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think it's a huge red flags when workplaces say
you're a family.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
But also I feel like when you're a young.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Worker, there's something about like an external being saying we're
all family, where you're like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I mean and you're but you're looking for family like that,
And like for some communities and cultures, like it's so
important to build chosen families because you're looking for that
connection and belonging, right, But that can often mean me
put it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
But why don't you find my bad habits endearing? Why
performance managed? And why do you keep telling me to
get off my phone.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Back to the friendship thing, though, I feel like something
that reminds me that my friends are my family is
when I start having friendship affairs, where like, I'm the
type of person that I love my friends and I
have like my core group of friends.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
But then sometimes I just want to explore.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you're allowed to do that.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
You want to get the butterflies.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And then I come back to my core group and
I talk about all my new friends and then they're like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But you can tell they're jealous.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I can tell they're jealous, and I can tell that
they also know this is not going to last. Yeah,
So then they just wait for me, and then I
just come back and then they're like, what happened to
you so and so?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And I'm like, ah, they didn't really like me. Faster
fast it's allowed. They kind of just wanted to drink
every night. And they're like, yeah, that sounds right. Come
back here. Can't do that with your family though. Bring
it in. Have you noticed that everyone's hair is long?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Again?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Have you too noticed this?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
My hair's always long, but yeah in the so.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Long my hair is really long. And I'm going to
get to the complicated psychological reasons why that is in
your hair is also long. It just goes really fast.
I kind of quite short though.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Are you telling me that the bob that everybody got
for a hot minute, the county bob is it? Is
it quickly over county bob hole.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
They're growing it out. They are growing it out. Holly,
your friend with that bob, she's growing it out. You
see someone you haven't seen, No, while first thing you
say is, oh my goodness, your hair's got long, right,
Like this is just a common elaborience. Yeah. The New
York Times is onto it. Vanessa Friedman writes that we
are in a Rapunzel age and a number of factors
(32:48):
are contributing. This is very interesting. A brief history of hair,
if you'll allow me. In the Eurocentric tradition, long hair
on women has always been associated with childhood and fertility. Right,
So cutting it or pinning it up is about maturity.
It's saying like, I'm an adult now.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
People tell you have to get your haircut when you
become a parent, yep, And as you get older and
when you get.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
When you get here, that's when nan wants to shave
your head. As we entered modernity, it kind of changed.
Like I think the nineteen twenties flapper vibe. It meant
that you were like a very modern woman if you
got your hairstyled because of the widespread like you could
suddenly get a haircut. But this myth that older women
should have their haircut has been completely thrown out lately.
(33:33):
Did you know that Milania Trump is the first first
lady ever to have hair below her shoulders?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
That is wild in.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
The modern era.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
So we're saying how Michelle Obama, for example, when she
was first Lady, had very much that sort of the straightened.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Bob Lary Clinton.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
She's been out of office. Now you see Michelle Obama
and she's rocking the long braids and she's got that
the hair she would never have been allowed to have
when she was I mean for lots of reasons in
that context, but she would never have been allowed to
have it when she was first Lady exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
So there are hormonal reasons why hair changes. We know
that drop of estrogen after menopause can mean that hair
just gets dry and brittle and people just go screw
it or cut it off. But all of these new
treatments make a big difference. But of course that's for
people who can afford them, So that brings us too.
Long hair in this moment is a flex.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
It's a flex.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
It requires good health and a certain amount of money
to maintain, because if you have longer hair, you're not
just having longer hair. You want it to look shiny
and luscious and all of that, and so you're spending
money on it. And mix that in with a complicated
gender moment, perhaps a bit of a tradwife conservatism revival,
and you have an entire Trump administration where every woman
(34:46):
looks like a carbon copy of the next. The long hair,
the makeup, all of that. Holly, have you ever had
your hair short? Are you someone who.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
When I was a kid. Yeah, right, I had my
hair short when I was a kid. I've got lots
of photos of me with really short hair, but I've
never had it shorter than my shoulders in adulthood like
I've had it up here? Should lengths?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Do you think it's a rebellion too? Just because I'm
a mum doesn't mean well?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And I think that now it is definitely an act
of personal rebellion to have really long hair, even though
it's not very cool, and people I mean, well, apparently
it is now actually, but it hasn't been very cool
in the last year. I remember when I went and
for mid I did, I got my style assessed by
that woman who's apparently an expert in like mature lady stuff,
and she was like, cut your fucking hair. And people
(35:33):
often say that to me, They're like, cut your hair,
and I'm like, no, because it feels and maybe it
is like internalized ages in me. It feels like me
like me to have my long hair, you know what
I mean, Like I just feel like that. It's interesting
because I think for older women, I think it is
that symbol like you look at a Demimore or whoever
(35:54):
you know, and they've got this very long hair and
definitely a youth play. Definitely it is, even if it
doesn't necessarily work. Like I don't think that my long
hair makes me look younger. It just makes me feel
you know what I mean. But for younger women it's
back in fashion too, And why is that.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I think that that's because of this ultra feminine idea.
And the men that I know who had long hair
have just recently all cut it short, so it's almost
like this confirming of the gender roles. But when I
became a mum, I was like, I am absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Not cutting my hair getting the mum bob.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I'm not doing it because I don't want to look
And I love my mom. She's great, her hair's great.
But I'm like, I think every woman doesn't want to
look like their mum because then you're like, I look.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Like a mum.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
I would look like my mum because when I was little,
in all the photos, she had short hair. And so
I wonder if we all just rebel against what our
mothers look like. Like I know my mum rebels against
the perm like my nan had the you know the
older woman had the kind of would go and get
their hair set. My mom would never do that. That's
for old ladies. And so I wonder if it's kind
of this pendulum shift. How about you, you am? Are you
(37:02):
finding that your mates are growing it long? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I think everyone tried the bob in their early twenties
on mid twenties and now they're growing it out. But
I have this weird thing in my head, like ever
since I was young, where I thought every woman wanted
to have short hair, but they couldn't have short hair
because men prefer long hair. So the only women who
had short hair were women in relationships because they were
(37:26):
allowed to because they already caught one. Yeah, they really
caught one. So in my head like I just don't
think I could ever do.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
That's funny because I cut my hair when I was
maybe at school, like maybe seventeen or something, just like
quite short and with the boys like oh yeah. So
someone said to me, you cut your hotness off, which
I think is was his way of saying, your face sucks.
And the blonde hair at least like covered it a
little bit, And now I was so much face. I
(37:53):
don't think I have the bone structure. You know that
TikTok filter that tells you whether you can pull off
short hair. It said to me, absolutely, well.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
This is the thing. Is like hair a bit like
every time they tell us that various body parts of
ours are either in fashion or out. It's like that
bob that everybody had for a hot minute, The County
bob looks amazing on a handful of people. Yeah, like amazing.
But I remember when that lady told me to do it,
I was like, have you seen my jawline? Like I
don't mean that to be like self deprecating, but it's
(38:20):
not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I had one of my best mates at college at
UNI who was definitely cool. When we had that conversation
about who is called my friend Suzanne is the coolest,
she just shaved her head. Like just wish it was
one of those women. She was only twenty and she
just shaved her head and she looked incredible. But like
the rest of us, we would have looked like potatoes
if we'd have done that. So, you know, I think
(38:44):
we can't, like we slave to trends. The idea that
it is still deeply ingrained that men prefer longer hair
in heterosexual situations is so depressing, Like.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Really, is it true? I think it's true.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, it's true. Culturally it's true, because it's like, why
do they because they've been.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Taught to because we look more fertile.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, we look younger and more fertile, and culturally that's
what they've always been told. You know, all the sexy
girl you never see a lingerie model with short hair
or you know, like any kind.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Of Victoria's Secret.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
When have you ever seen a Victoria's Secret model of
short hall? Like that kind of very cliched, male gayzy
idea of beauty always comes with long hair, which is
why I mean, hair isn't just hair for lots of
different reasons, right, but that's one of them is that
when you cut it off, you're kind of going cute.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
After the break are weekly recommendations, including a new novel
that was so good and made me spiral.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my
best recommendation Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our best recommendations.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Jesse. Okay, it's not often that Jesse recommends be related things,
but last week I discovered that expensive hair care actually works.
And this week I have terrible news, which is that
I think we're using Primer again.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
We are, I think we are?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
We are.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I've also purchased a Primer recently.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, so what happened was I've got quite oily skin
and I was finding that I was putting my makeup
on in the morning.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's a very youthful problem to have, you think, Yeah,
oh my god, shut up.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I just felt like my makeup was dripping off my
face by the end of the day, and I'd look
in the mirror and it was patchy. And I use
powder because when we film and stuff, the lights can
be a bit intense, like a setting powder, like a
setting powder, and I thought that was going to keep
it on. But I was just having issues. So the
other day, I have a feeling. I end up in Mecca,
right and I'm like, I came across the Laura Mercia
(41:09):
primer and I remembered I had it years ago. I
ran out and I just never refilled it, and I
grabbed it. I grabbed the blurring one, which is meant
to be a little bit more matifying, because I went,
if I do something too glowy or hydrating, I'm just
gonna look really shiny. Grabbed that. I don't want to
say it changed my life, but for seventy nine dollars,
(41:30):
you'd hope, oh my god, seventy nine dollars. And it's
a really small bottle. So I'm horrified. It's a good
one though, because it's also it.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Must have been having big feelings.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I was having big feelings. There's a lot going on,
so apparently it hides the appearance of pause. No comment
on that one, but that I have staring deep yeah pause,
poor poor. But what I will say is that I
put that on underneath, and it's like glue. Like my
makeup all day is stuck. I'm not having to reapply.
(42:01):
It's not patchy. It all goes on so much smoother now.
Seventy nine is a lot. So the other day my
friend was using the new go to. I thought, yep,
and I glowy. I tried the glowy one. I've used
the mat which I thought the glowy. Surely I'm gonna
look ridiculous, not too glowy, not too shiny at all.
(42:22):
And again kept my makeup on all day and it's
got some skin care in it. Yeah, and that one's
forty nine, so it's a little bit more affordable.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I've got a cheaper one for you. Oh yes, please,
I've got a Maybeline one. It's called Grippy Serum. I'm
wearing it right now.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Actually, you're looking very glowing, thank.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
You so much, hold everything together, and isn't super shiny.
I think it's around fourteen dollars a price.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Okay, I'm going to try that one. I really like
my cinema. It on my desk. I'll give it to you.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Do you think because Primate comes in, Primate goes out.
I remember Lee Campbell saying on New Beauty years ago, like, nah,
don't bother, but I haven't heard what her current judgment
is on Prima, so just came back. Maybe Primate got
better because the thing about Primate is I always feel
like it's just another layer. I'm already piling on, like
Serum's moisturizer, then it's Primate, then it's this and that.
(43:10):
But you reckon it really has made a difference.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yeah, and apparently it does seal. So what I do
in summer, especially is I do my sunscreen and then
I put the primer over the top, and that's pretty
much all I'm doing because I was doing too many layers,
and I think that's why I was looking like I'd
just gotten out of the shower. So, especially for oily
skinned girls, I think that primer is on your best friend.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
I also noticed it makes my makeup easier to take
off at night time, Like it doesn't sink again as much.
I'm not scrubbing my face as much when I'm taking it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Listen to us kind of. I've got a podcast, the
BBC podcast that I was recommended on the weekend and
immediately listen to while I was driving and I'm addicted to.
It's called The Gift, And this is a podcast that
the concept for is like, you know that you've done this.
Haven't you done the DNA test? You know that the
(43:59):
ancestry the twenty three and me those tests that you
do to find out about your genetic and family history
and all those things.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
They keep finding like long forgotten sea real killers who
they couldn't find for decades through their cousins' ancestry DNA tests.
So yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
So this genius podcast, The Gift, is all about that.
Each episode follows a different story of a mess that
came about because of an ancestry test.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
We had that in my own family, actually quite recent
we had a child come forward that wenty my dad.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
There are some in my friend groups that have found
out some interesting things about themselves from doing these tests.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Have you done one huh.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I've never done one, but now I want to because
I just want to see what shit comes from. So
it's not new this show, but I've just discovered it.
So there are two series you can listen to if
you go and find it. But the first one and
the one that got me absolutely hooked, was basically about
how a series of different testers in the UK. Because
this is a BBC show, there's some American stories there,
some British stories found through doing their DNA test that
(45:01):
they were children of Dona sperm and they didn't know that.
But then what they then went on to find out
about the murky ethics about where that sperm came from
is really really interesting because I didn't know this, but
like nearly all fertility treatments in the UK, and I'm
sure in other places too, we're not regulated at all
until the nineties. So it was just the wild West.
(45:22):
So the guy could be saying, oh, this Donus sperm
comes from blah blah, and it could have just been well,
I won't tell you because that would be a spoiler.
But it's such a good show. It's kind of long
form storytelling. It's really good for drives. Hot Girl walks, etc.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
How about you, en, Okay, I've just finished reading a book.
It is called very You.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Made that sound like you don't usually, but actually you
read all the time.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I read all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
I really recommend them because I always forget that they
can and I just think it's a really cool thing
to have when you know how to read good. I'm
smiling because it's a new book and I know you
guys haven't read it yet, because yeah, fresh and new,
you read it?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
No, no, no, no, no no no. I think it's on my desk,
though it's on your desk, because I have a feeling it's.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Claire's publisher published this book. It's called Very Impressive for
Your Age by Ellena Kirk. It's her debut novel and
she's quite young. Have you noticed everyone's named Evelyn?
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Now, yes, suddenly Evelyn is everywhere anyway? Is it aussy?
It is aussy?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So it's about this character named Evelyn. She's twenty six
years old and she's Australian and she's one of those
like child prodige. It's like she's an amazing, amazing, amazing singer.
So after high school she moves to Europe, and she's
currently in Germany doing these massive operas like she's been
written about. She's doing all these amazing auditions. She's on
the stage, she's singing this huge ballad. No sound comes
(46:44):
out of her voice, oh wow. And it's about how
she just completely loses her singing ability. She can talk
and stuff, but when it comes to singing, no sounds
coming out.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And it's kind of about what happens when the one
thing you're good at you can't do anymore. And she
moves back to Australia, she now has to work back
in old high school. She's kind of like having to
revert her life. It's also one of those characters that
you just deeply dislike but you want them to win.
It is so so good and also so so funny.
(47:16):
I love books that just make me laugh, and this
one made me really really laugh.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
I find that one of the most interesting questions I
think with athletes when their careers end and you go,
who are you without your skill?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Like?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And I think it happens to everyone. It's at some
point and the thing you think that was part of
your identity you lose.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
And also just the people around you you lose as well,
because I like what you say. You to me now, yes, true,
it's so good.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I've heard really good things about this.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
What's it called again?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I'm very impressive for your age by Ellen or Kirk.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Thank you so much out Louders for being here with
us for another week. We love you for it. Don't forget.
You can watch us on YouTube if you want to.
And if you want to judge everybody's prime please don't
do that. Don't watch it closely at our face that
they won't, but m Jesse read this out.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Ruth Divine, executive producer Sasha Tanic I've seen.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Your audio producer is Leah porge'es. Our video producer is
Josh Green.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
It's his birthday.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Happy birthday, Josh, Happy birthday, Josh. And our junior content
producers are Coco and Tessa. But wait, there's more, because
we cannot go without telling you about a brand new
Muma mea podcast and you may have heard about it
because it was made by the out Louders for the
out Louders, and it is unlike anything that has been
made in Australia before. It is called this is Why
(48:37):
We Fight, and it launches today. It is Australia's first
and only therapy based podcast. So if you ever watched
Couple's Therapy and you love kind of watching like I mean,
I suppose it's drama and it's real people and it's
real problems. We've kept them anonymous so there aren't names,
(48:58):
but we have a clinical psychologist named Sarah Bays who
sits and counsels essentially people through real life problems. And
today's episode deals with a couple and their different definitions
of cheating. It's about trust, it's about boundaries in a relationship.
It is exceptional listening and I could not rate it
(49:18):
more highly. So that is your weekend listening sorted. You've
got your mum Mia out Loud, You've got your this
is Why We Fight and of course the latest episode
of Parenting Out Loud we'll drop on Saturday morning. Tick
links to everything we've mentioned on today's show will of
course be in the show notes. Bye Cia.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Shout out to ANYMMA mia subscribers listening. If you love
the show and you want to support us, subscribing to
Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description,
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hello and welcome out Louders friends to our Friday show.
It's what women are talking about on Friday, the seventeenth October.
I feel like I haven't reminded the out louders for
a while, although I know they know that on Fridays
we don't mess with the real world. We don't do news,
we don't do doom scrolls.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
That's why I'm here on a Friday.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Why can we bring them on Friday? We want to
send you into the weekend with good vibes, something interesting
to think about, and of course recommendations. So who else
is with me here today?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm Jesse Stevens. I don't know why I'm here for
the good.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Vibes, but I you're here to balance the groad.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We don't want to get me here here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You're bringing a lot of vibes. You've got all these
people inside you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, did you know you have a little part
of his arms and six legs and maybe two penises?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I like that.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I might not be getting a lot, but I have
two penises inside. Who's winning?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
In case anyone is confused, Jesse Stevens is pregnant with twins.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
And your advertisers of today's show are really upset.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
And I'm m Burnham. I don't have any penises inside
me currently currently right now, I don't know if you
to our episode about what we.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Did yesterday, That's all I'm gonna say. Anyway, here's what
made our agenda for this Friday. Oh, friends, they're just
like family, aren't they. Well, apparently if you're treating your
friends like family, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Plus, the bust tour you did through Europe in your
twenties is dead. Young people have been clear about what
they want and it is very different to the travel
of the.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Past and something to read, something to listen to, and
something to slap on your face.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It is our recommendations.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But first, chat fishing. It's a thing that's happening on
dating apps, as if the modern world wasn't making dating
hard enough? Am I right?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I'm about to send this to you, my friend. Now
we're having to deal with the fact that all that
chatty banter you might be having with that person you
matched with is really just you talking to a robot.
Do you know what chat fishing is? And have you
encountered it?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I do know what chat fishing is. I'm annoyed that
I wasn't the person who came up with our time
because it's so good, I know, So what is it?
So it's basically where people on dating apps are now
using AI so like chatchpt to kind of have the
conversation for their dates.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So when you match, you usually do a bit of
back and forth right on the ass, like I'm going
to make sure we're all normal, a friendly banter, Oh
how are you? How are you?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And they're getting the chatgypt to go.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
How are you? How are you? Have you ever used
chat jipyte as a little bit of a prompt for
like a what questions should I ask? How should I respond?
Does this make me look normal?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You absolutely know I have, well, not really in the
actual initial dating stages. I feel like I'm quite a
good speaker and I actually have a conversation with someone.
But I think I talked about in the podcast, I've
used chat gbt's services when things are going a bit m.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Is this guy ghosting me? You did once ask the
robot that.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
And do you know if the robots can help with sexting,
because I've been in situations in the past where I've
gone I'd like to send a sext, but I don't
know how, Like I don't know what words to you, I.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Don't know how. I don't think she is doing I
can teach you, so can I. We'll get to Jesse's
sexual problems in the moment. But the example that I
saw in this article I read is that a woman
had been having really good banter with a guy that
she wanted to meet. He'd been quite emotionally intelligent and
like talking about attachment styles, and they've been having a
proper life exchange. And then she goes to the pub
(04:11):
to meet him for that in real life date and
the guy can barely streng it well, not that, but
the chemistry is not there. He's not the guy talks
about attachment styles. The banter is gone, and she realizes, oh,
he was asking chat GPT for like good banter.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, but she also slept with him, and she felt
as though she slept with him on the basis of
their banter and just put his personality down to nerves
and then kind of went, oh, no, I've been completely
like essentially catfish.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
She went on a second date and she's like, this
is definitely I've been chatfish. But I also wanted to
read out the message she received, like the first, the
very first message she got from this man. It said,
I've been reading a bit about attachment styles lately. It's
helped me to understand myself better, DASH and the type
of partner I would be looking for. Have you ever
looked at yours? Do you know what your attachment style is?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Would you hope?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Are you saying I.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Am blocking that man because he just used chat GBT
to ask me a question?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And what was your tell?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Okay, firstly, men talking about attachment styles, you don't know,
you don't know the dash is a big tael And
also two questions instead of one or zero questions.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Ah, that's clearly a robot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Is there any thing in doing about a guy maybe
using chat GPT to help improve his banter?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I would think so trying the fact that you really
want to try and you really want to sleep with me.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
But there was a man in the article who said,
I want to start a conversation that feels meaningful from
the beginning, so I can hook the other person in
which sounds quite like fine, but also I don't want
to spend too much time on it, and I'm like,
that's so ugly the problem.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
You know, it shows tail as old as time, right,
because there's a very famous play from you oldie times
called Serrano de Burgrak, which was turned into a classic
eighties comedy with Steve Martin and Darrel Hannah. And what
that's about is a guy who's like not articulate, but
he's really hot. Woman really likes him, and so hot
guy gets nerdy guy to write all the love letters.
(06:13):
I feel like this is a plot and lots of
rom coms, and so hot guy gets nerdy guy to
write all the love letters. She falls in love with
the love letters, but when she gets together with the guy,
he's just like monosyllabic. This has been around a long time,
but now it's back with an AI twitch.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Except in that scenario we have the option to fall
in love with the nerdy guy, because.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's what happens in the rom com.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
We can't fall in love with chat GBT.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I mean, some of us are, but I've had a
lot of men use chat GBT in messaging me, except
they're a bit not good at it. So one time
I had this guy, I had something in my profile
that said, how I don't like Jim martiniz I know
you love a Jim Martini hole. And I got a
message on this going saying, hey, am lovely to match
with you. I have to admit I really like Jim
(06:56):
Martini's That whole message was in quodes.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Oh, so do you think that he put your profile
into chattipt the prom but what's the good firstach to
this girl?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And it probably gave him like three options options and
you just copied and paste with the quote marks.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Maybe though, you know, like the woman who wrote this article,
maybe you could have sex with the real guy and
then all your relationship yeh, could be conducted over text
with his better robot self and that could be quite satisfying.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
It's like the movie Herb with work in Phoenix in
it art. The bus tour you did through Europe in
your twenties is dead, and I feel very sad. Now
who here did one of these tours? Holly Well?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I did not, because English people don't do them, no,
but I am adjacent to them because one of my
first jobs I worked for and why I ended up
in Australia. I worked for this magazine in London that
was like a free magazine for Aussie's and Kiwi travelers,
and that was a massive thing. This is like before
the internet really, and Kintiki and top Deck were our
biggest advertisers and that was the thing for all the
(08:07):
assi's and kiwis to do. And proper travelers in inverted
commas were a bit snooty about them, but everybody knew
that Kentiki was a good time.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Okay, So I have done one Kentucky tour, which I
did probably like twenty four or something, and I did
a Greek island hopping thing. It was about fourteen days.
And then I did a top Deck tour six weeks,
six weeks, nineteen countries camping. No, you did, I did
when I was nineteen.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
That is a big commitment. That's a long time. What
if you hate everyone?
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, And that was I reckon. There were forty peoples.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Give me a time scale of how long ago this was.
Because the thing that when I was reading all this,
obviously it's not my world anymore, and I was kind
of like, oh, I didn't know those things still existed,
but they've been popular for really.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah, so that would have been about thirteen years ago.
And I had never been overseas, finished school, and when
all I want is to go overseas and I want
to see the world like I have never experienced it.
And so you just raw dog nineteen countries and I
just did nineteen countries, camped in Paris, camped all over
the place. Let's go to Poland for a day, like.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
This is early naughties and if this is you.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So would have been like, let's go twenty nineteen. Oh yeah, yeah,
of course twenty nineteen. I mean two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Nine, so late naughties. Sorry, neither of us can do math.
You're obviously younger. Again, do you and your mates do
Kenticky tours?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
A few of my friends in high school went on Kenticky.
I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
When you launched an adult, you do your own thing.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Because they were they were like, no, no, no, I'm misunderstanding.
You were misunderstanding. I still cannot do things without my charge.
Twenty nine years old, I was around like seventeen turning eighteen,
which was like ideal time because I would have been eighteen.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
In Europe, I wasn't allowed because we were just hearing
of all these stories like it was a bit of fun, right,
but I can understand hesitation from parents.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And over that many days that you did it, there
would be whole relationships and break.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
There was someone who's married at the beginning and wasn't
it Oh it was anyway?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Tell me why? It was a bit of about them.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
So they are of course youth focus travel tours. They
are popular in Europe, Asia, the US, Canada, and they
are known for kating literally forty people ages eighteen to
thirty nine was generally the vibe until recently.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
There wouldn't have been anyone who was thirty four on
that trip.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I'm trying to no one married women. But the married
woman was thirty four? Why wasn't her husband there? And
she was getting with the boy from Manchester? I was nineteen.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, so the only very savvy young Englishman do this.
Because I was looking at the stats and Kentiki's about
eighteen to ninety percent Aussies, right, So if you're a
young hot mank union.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Oh they had a great time.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Is there an Australian version where there's like a bus
full of like English boys?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And then I can just.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes, they're definitely in that world too, and there are
lots of backpacker trips. I don't wuldn't know what they
were anymore, but they are. Yeah, they're definitely is the equivalent.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
So they go through multiple cities or countries, and the
appeal really is that it's cheaper than you'd do it individually,
and for many Austria as they're a rite of passage.
But in an article that was published in the Sydney
Morning Herald last week, it alerted us to the end
of an era because ben groundwater rides. I worked on
those boozy europe coach tours. I'm sad to see them go.
(11:24):
And they haven't gone out of business, but this thing
of having a fifty passenger coach that goes around like
a big bus, like a big bus done. We're done
with the bus. He writes that the camping tour has
effectively been dead for years, which I didn't know. And
it's all about small group journeys. So maximum eighteen passengers.
Top deck has lowered their maximum age. Eighteen year olds
(11:46):
don't want to be with thirty nine year olds anymore.
Thirty two is in mass. I've aged out, You've nearly half,
and the tour is generally.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Spreading out of time.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
You have to tell your mom, I'm sorry mom, And
now they spend longer in each location. So this has
all been driven by jen Z being clear about what
they want. They do not want a boozy Europe trip.
They'll say, I'll have a glass of why not too,
But I don't want to get drunk in Croatia. Oh
come on. Part of the Kentique offering is now Sunrise
(12:16):
yoga and morning run clubs that did not happen when
I was there.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
This what worries me about this Jesse is that small
group tours are really big for older people and older
women right Like, I've been on them. They're fantastic. I've
been on someone with the family and they're all about
Sunrise yoga and rum clubs, and it's like, why are
the young people doing the same things as the old people.
I know?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, this is interesting because it proves your point. Gen
Z is also all about food. So none of this
to a cook where he makes you a burger and
you sit on your fold out camp chair in rows,
is that what you were doing? Yes, they want to
eat locally, so they want more freedom and they also
want to sort out their own itineraries. Because TikTok has
already told them where they want to go. They don't
(12:58):
need their guide to tell them where they go.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
The research is a lot easier than it was back
in your day.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
And when I went, I went, I want to go
to the Louver and that Eiffel Tower thing and blah
blah blah, because I've seen it in my lonely planet.
Now they want to go to a vintage shop that
they saw and a cafe, and it's not as kind
of mainstream as my thing would have been.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Like I was talking about how when I was lucky
enough to go to Europe this summer with my family,
and the main characterness of the instagrammers everywhere was very apparent.
That's kind of this, right, Yes, Like you want to
find your place to get your perfect pictures and find
your experiences that you've all seen online. You don't want
to necessarily have the tour guide guy going We're all
(13:42):
going to my mate Dave's cafe.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
No, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's like no one wants to take a picture of
Dave's croissant.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
No.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
And they also don't want to have their days all
organized where we do this, this, and this. They want
more freedom. There are some real upsides to this. But
what do you think is lost with this kind of
evolution within youth travel.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I think the best thing about traveling when you're younger
is that you have stories to tell when you're older.
And I feel like they're not going to have any
fun stories to tell.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I've got something in their vintage shop, No, but they're
not going to be.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
If they get arrested in the vintage shop, then yes,
I'm all on board, because that's a good story. But
if you're just doing like the this is how I
traveled when I was younger. I was only able to
do like the safe types of travel, and I didn't
get to really like be a rebel, and I didn't
get to like sleep with men. I didn't get to
get drunk. And why you'm making up for I haven't
(14:33):
los cannon right now, but like I actually never when
I was traveling when I was younger, Like even when
I was twenty one, I just never drank ever because
I was so scared, because I was just told it
was really scary and dangerous and dangerous, and even like
it said in the Peace that they all started in London,
because like London was like English speaking and safe before
(14:53):
you just went into.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
You couldn't land in France, Oh oh my god, what
would you do? Too exotic? They don't even speak English,
which reminded me that travel has become so much easier
with maps and with translators on our phone. It just
means that that thing of being scared in a foreign
city went on and speaks the language you speak is
less of an issue.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I saw in this piece that an area that is
a growth area for these guys, though, is that older market.
And they're marketing them as reunion tours, so they're like
thirty five to forty.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Five trip, let's do it again.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, and you don't have to have been on the
tour before, but it's like, let's relive our youth. And
because of this was my world for quite a long time,
I worked in a backpack of travel journalism and stuff.
There's a certain kind of middle aged man now that
I know, and I mean Brent's a bit adjacent to this,
as much as I love him, like, most of his
conversation with his mates is still reminiscing about those adventures
(15:46):
that you were talking about. You know how you were saying,
you need the stories for when you're older. They still
spend a lot, and he was more of a Kombi
Van guy, you know, but the coombe Van guys and
girls are still dining out on those stories, like thirty
years later. And so I think if there was the
reunion tour, it's kind of like everybody going to see
(16:06):
Oasis and getting hammered, you know, or going to see
Take That and women taking their clothes off even though
they've got four teenagers at home. No shade. But it's
like this idea of very much reliving that part of you.
I think it's really interesting because we're always seeing these
stats about how gen Z drink less are generally more
sensible and aren't having as much sex.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It was just a bit messy. Yeah, like fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I think they are much tighter regulations, which is a
good thing. Yeah, it's definitely a good thing. But I
had a quick look at the social media pages for
some of these brands. Now if you go and look
at the instagrams, Now, there are lots of gorgeous hot girls,
you know, at various sites, but it's much more sanitized.
And I just think that that's probably a good thing.
But then I was thinking about it. I've got a
daughter who is heading you know, she's in a few years,
(16:53):
she'll be and I really want her to go and
travel when she's eighteen, like I really do. I think
Brent and I are both people who did a lot
of that when we were young, but I would probably
encourage her to do it on her own with a
mate for the reasons that Jess's just pointed out. You
can your phone tells you everything you go over, which.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Is exactly what I did. I went traveling with my
cousin and it was amazing. But I think because you're
put into an environment where you both have to fend
for yourselves at such a young age before you infend
for yourselves at home, you just automatically become more aware
of everything. Like you don't drink, you don't want to
go out, but like in the environment where you're just
(17:30):
following a schedule that everyone's doing and then you're just
jumping on and off of bus, you have like freedom
to do as much as you want. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
In defense of the tour, though, I think that there's
an intensity to traveling one on one with someone that
is diluted when there are other people around and when
you can meet them and hang out for relationships, for siblings,
for friends.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Did you go by yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
No, I went with a boyfriend when I was nineteen.
I went with Claire the other time, right, And that
was I think really good for both relationships because it
was fun to meet new people. I still am connected
with with a bunch of them. And I also think
that the value of a brilliant tour guide. There are
things that I was told by that guide in Paris
that I still remember that I will never read anywhere
(18:12):
on the internet that she just happened to know. And
I remember when I was in Tuscany a few years back,
TikTok organized our holiday and we turned up at these
hot springs. They were revolting, like TikTok lied. And that's
the thing is that TikTok can make something look beautiful
and then you give yourself a three sixty and go,
this isn't where I want to go. Like, there is
(18:34):
something about verified travel experts telling you where to go,
people who spend a lot of time there rather than
someone who just wanted a photo in a hot tub.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, it's invaluable I think to your point too, about
if there's a place where you're a bit too young
and a bit too green, if anything, to really be
excited about being out in the world. I remember we
used to go and do these questionnaires with backpackers. Wee
go and find a backpacker at Sydney Central or whatever
and be like, what's the hardest thing about traveling on
your own in Australia And they'd say doing my own washing, yeah,
(19:08):
because they've never lived at it like a backpack full
of two minute noodles. And you're just like, maybe you
need to live a little before you spread your wings
out louders in a moment, should you really treat your
friends like family?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
We have a listener dilemma and we need your collective
wisdom to help us and our partners UI solve it. Please,
here is the problem from our listener. I need some
perspective on a wedding dilemma that's left me feeling totally flat.
My friend, who I met when our sons became primary
school friends and who are still best mates, is getting married.
(19:50):
When she called to tell me she was sending a
wedding invitation, I was thrilled and pictured our shared table
with all our friends. I recently got back with my
partner after a couple of years apart, who she never
really hit it off with, and when I opened the
wedding invite, I noticed only my name was on it.
My friend mentioned she had strict numbers and no plus
(20:10):
ones because of catering costs, and I was okay with
that until I discovered I was the only person invited
from our entire friend group. The reception is cocktail style,
and all I can picture is myself standing alone, desperately
scanning the room, trying to find someone I know, and
just wishing my partner or at least one familiar friend
was with me. I can't shake the feeling that my
(20:30):
friend is sending a message by leaving my partner and
everyone else behind. I know I should feel honored to
be the chosen one, but instead I feel anxious and abandoned.
Am I being a spoiled sook for not wanting to
go to her wedding alone? The question is what do
you do next?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think it comes to the wedding day. You drink
as much champagne as you can and you just have
a good old time.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm with you, M with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I'm with you too. To be harsh, the wedding isn't
about you, dull.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
We have to jamaima kirk there. Yeah, yeah, thinking about
yourself too much? Yeah, I reckon that you are going
to have a great time. I have absolutely done wedding solo.
I totally get why she didn't invite your partner. I
don't think it's anything personal. It's just a plus one's
numbers issue, and I reckon like it sometimes it's a blessing.
Do not have anyone you know there? You get to
(21:21):
know other people and she'll make sure she seats you
around interesting people and it'll be great.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
And also it's one afternoon, you know what I mean.
I get it, even if it is awkward, and even
if you don't love it, it's a few hours of
your life. Go home early like you're there to support
your mate. I'm sorry, friend, I think that's what you
should do.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Out loud is what would you do next? Share your
thoughts in the mummea out loud Facebook group. Also, if
you have a dilemma, send it to us at out
loud at momamea dot com dot a you. We would
love to.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Help you, we need to talk about the word family,
as in who is, who isn't, and what the difference
is between people who are family and the people who
are not. Are your friends, for example, your family is
your workplace one big family. And if that's all true,
is it a positive thing? First of all, I want
(22:14):
to ask you too, do you consider some of your
friends to be family?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Really, no, I wish I did not one friend my
friends or my friends and my family is my family.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Well, as we're about to discuss Jesse, that might be very,
very healthy.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But then Mayor was my friend and now she's my family.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well, yeah, you're it's very complicate your situation.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It sounds like you're just making your friends your family.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Your situation is quite a play.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
How do I get in?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I trying to think of a complicated way. Yeahs yes,
it's definitely one of Jesse's brothers.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
That's the way.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
My friends are my family, I would say, so I
was not all of them. I feel like there's a
specific three maybe that I would consider family. But I
also don't know if they would consider me family.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I have to go both ways.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I think it probably does, But I want to talk
about what that means right, because the way that Jesse
just said, I wish I did. We all think that's
a really positive thing to say. I treat my friends
like family is a really positive thing. I definitely have
friends who a family. I think that also, the fact
that I live far from my family has meant at
times you build a family, you know, so I have,
particularly in Sydney, from the community where we had our
(23:23):
kids and stuff, we have like literally they call my
kids call am auntie and uncle like they are like family, right.
But we always say that as if it's a really
positive thing. And I recently read this substack that was
positing that you absolutely should not treat your friends like
family because family relationships, and obviously this is generalization, but
(23:45):
family relationships are often very boundaryless. You know, you expect,
for example, your family to do things for you that
you probably wouldn't ask a friend to do. You expect
them to put up with behavior from you that you
probably wouldn't expect a friend to. So if you were
really treating your friends like family, you might actually be
treating your friends quite badly. And I wondered, Jesse, if
(24:07):
you were thinking about it. Other things that you expect
from family that you just wouldn't expect from friends, like
from basic practical things like helping you move house at
the drop of a hat, to like putting up with
you being depressed about a breakup for a year. You
know what I mean? Like, what do you think about that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I think that the implication with the word family is
and I know this is not true for everyone and
they're a complicated, strained family dynamics, But for me, is
the word unconditional. My family love me because I exist.
My friends don't love me because I exist. My friends
love me because of the way I show up, or
(24:45):
because of certain qualities, or because of I feel as though,
and I don't know if this is necessarily healthy, but
it's like, my friendships aren't unconditional. They are very much
like and I've experienced friendship falling out so someone moves
to the other side of the world, or things change,
priorities change, whatever. I think I'm a better person to.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
My friends, yes, And that's the key to this.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, And I think that's important is that you show
up and you go. Like I suppose within families, you
play a role. They have a vision of who they
want you to be. Whereas you get to be completely
yourself sometimes with your friends, and it's like We're going
out to have a good time, and I'm gonna ask
these questions and I'm gonna look after you, and I
(25:27):
don't know, I find them simpler.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
And do you feel like in that there's like an
implicit expectation though, that for your friends you have to
perform like a better version of yourself, because I think
that maybe that's where the line goes, you know, like
I think that real deep friendships you don't have to
perform like I can go and I do have some
friends I can go and sit on their couch like
(25:50):
no makeup, tracking pants and just winge about life, you
know what I mean. And then you have some friends
who are very much like metaphorically not necessarily literally you
put your lipstick on for them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
If you were having a big cry, who would you
call first? I know it's really hard because it's the
other side of the world and it's time difference. But
would you want to call your mum or would you
want to call your friend?
Speaker 1 (26:08):
My friend?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, see, I'd call my mum or I'd call Claire.
I think I'd go I feel like that's shit I'm
going to put on my family because I know they've
got time for it, and I would think twice before
putting that on a friend. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I kind of agree with you to an extent, but
like my closest friends here similar to you, whole have
family who are either overseas or interstate, and they're single
and they're here by themselves.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
And it was.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Only recently where I realized the privilege I had of
being able to go to my parents or my sister
for things, and then I realized that I had to
be that person for them, like things like moving, things
like heartbreak. I think that's my responsibility, as being their
kind of family person in where they're living, to do
(26:57):
for them because they don't have anyone else, and I
sometimes don't do the same thing to them, and I
don't think they would expect that either, because I have
my family here.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
It's interesting because I think that the friendships that are
like I don't think that your friends being like family
should be the benchmark for all friendships, but I think
that there are some friendships that drift that way. Because
we talk a lot about how friendships are often the
most important relationships are among the most important relationships of
your life, and so they can go through phases just
like any other relationship. Like I was listening to an
(27:27):
episode of Sentimental Garbage with Carolina Donahue and Dolly Alderton,
and they talked about how when they first got together
as friends, every friend date was intense and it was
carnage and they were going to be out till two
in the morning and it was amazing. But then they
knew that when they had moved into a new era
of friendship, it was when they could just go around
and have take away pizza and be home by tent,
you know what I mean. Like, so it's like, I
(27:48):
think that the friends who become like family, they've moved
through that expectation phase.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
But you don't think that all like close friends should
go through that process because we do it for partners.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, but I think there's some beauty to having relationships
that are still important to you but do have quite
firm boundaries around them. Yeah, Like, when I interview women
who are older about their lives, they'll often say that
their friendships have morphed into you know, it will be
their girlfriends who sit beside them at their parents' funerals,
you know, who help them through those most difficult pots. Yeah,
(28:22):
and those kind of friendships are definitely family, I think.
But the thing that's interesting is that we hold that
family thing up as if it is the pinnacle, whereas
very often it's actually the sort of dysfunctional mess. Like,
as you say, Jesse, you can yell at your sister.
I'm not saying you do. I'm sure you never yell
at Claire ever, but like you can yell at her
(28:42):
or tell things about herself that she doesn't want to hear,
or put the knife in in a way just because
you're in a bad mood. You know, if you do
that with a girlfriend too many times, Yeah, she's.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Got family dynamics bring you enormous joy, but they also
inevitably bring you pain, right and whether that's that they're
irritating you, that they are just like triggering something in you.
My friendships at this stage in my life do not
bring me pain like any pain. They are just joy.
And it's not to say that serious things don't happen
in our lives, but we don't hurt each other maybe
(29:15):
in the same way. So there's a real simplicity to
my friendships that I value.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I want to bring it into the workplace quickly, because
for a while there it was really fashionable for workplaces
and businesses to say we're just like a big family,
or literally say welcome to the Coca Cola family. You
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're part of
that family now, and to use family as a positive
word in workplaces. But in recent times it's very much
(29:41):
been recast as being a red flag, Like if a
workplaces keeps telling you that their family, does that again
imply all those boundaryless things that we were just talking about.
And again, this is.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
A weird situation to discuss it because Jesse's literally family,
but in an ordinary kind of workplace, if they keep
I've heard it said for example like often hospitality workplaces
might be like families, or you know, any kind of intense,
high pressure situation, but that can often mean boundaries across
expectations are too high.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like what do you think do you think it's suspicious
if your boss you're telling you your family.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I think it's a way of saying your mother and
this connection and your loyalty to this business ought to
be unconditional. I think that's what you're saying whether it's
the hours or the expectations, or the way this person
treats you, or what your manager asks of you. I
think it's saying you ought to stay. And I've you know,
worked behind a bar where it was kind of like
(30:35):
we're all a family, and then when I start working there,
it was not like we're all a family. We just
all went our separate ways and we never really talked again.
Like it's just simply not like a family.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Also, don't say I'm your family and then like I
mess up and then you fire me, Like you can't.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Do that exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think it's a huge red flags when workplaces say
you're a family.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
But also I feel like when you're a young.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Worker, there's something about like an external being saying we're
all family, where you're like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I mean and you're but you're looking for family like that,
And like for some communities and cultures, like it's so
important to build chosen families because you're looking for that
connection and belonging, right, But that can often mean me
put it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
But why don't you find my bad habits endearing? Why
performance managed? And why do you keep telling me to
get off my phone.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Back to the friendship thing, though, I feel like something
that reminds me that my friends are my family is
when I start having friendship affairs, where like, I'm the
type of person that I love my friends and I
have like my core group of friends.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
But then sometimes I just want to explore.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, you're allowed to do that.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
You want to get the butterflies.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And then I come back to my core group and
I talk about all my new friends and then they're like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But you can tell they're jealous.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I can tell they're jealous, and I can tell that
they also know this is not going to last. Yeah,
So then they just wait for me, and then I
just come back and then they're like, what happened to
you so and so?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And I'm like, ah, they didn't really like me. Faster
fast it's allowed. They kind of just wanted to drink
every night. And they're like, yeah, that sounds right. Come
back here. Can't do that with your family though. Bring
it in. Have you noticed that everyone's hair is long?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Again?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Have you too noticed this?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
My hair's always long, but yeah in the so.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Long my hair is really long. And I'm going to
get to the complicated psychological reasons why that is in
your hair is also long. It just goes really fast.
I kind of quite short though.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Are you telling me that the bob that everybody got
for a hot minute, the county bob is it? Is
it quickly over county bob hole.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
They're growing it out. They are growing it out. Holly,
your friend with that bob, she's growing it out. You
see someone you haven't seen, No, while first thing you
say is, oh my goodness, your hair's got long, right,
Like this is just a common elaborience. Yeah. The New
York Times is onto it. Vanessa Friedman writes that we
are in a Rapunzel age and a number of factors
(32:48):
are contributing. This is very interesting. A brief history of hair,
if you'll allow me. In the Eurocentric tradition, long hair
on women has always been associated with childhood and fertility. Right,
So cutting it or pinning it up is about maturity.
It's saying like, I'm an adult now.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
People tell you have to get your haircut when you
become a parent, yep, And as you get older and
when you get.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
When you get here, that's when nan wants to shave
your head. As we entered modernity, it kind of changed.
Like I think the nineteen twenties flapper vibe. It meant
that you were like a very modern woman if you
got your hairstyled because of the widespread like you could
suddenly get a haircut. But this myth that older women
should have their haircut has been completely thrown out lately.
(33:33):
Did you know that Milania Trump is the first first
lady ever to have hair below her shoulders?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
That is wild in.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
The modern era.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
So we're saying how Michelle Obama, for example, when she
was first Lady, had very much that sort of the straightened.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Bob Lary Clinton.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
She's been out of office. Now you see Michelle Obama
and she's rocking the long braids and she's got that
the hair she would never have been allowed to have
when she was I mean for lots of reasons in
that context, but she would never have been allowed to
have it when she was first Lady exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
So there are hormonal reasons why hair changes. We know
that drop of estrogen after menopause can mean that hair
just gets dry and brittle and people just go screw
it or cut it off. But all of these new
treatments make a big difference. But of course that's for
people who can afford them, So that brings us too.
Long hair in this moment is a flex.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
It's a flex.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
It requires good health and a certain amount of money
to maintain, because if you have longer hair, you're not
just having longer hair. You want it to look shiny
and luscious and all of that, and so you're spending
money on it. And mix that in with a complicated
gender moment, perhaps a bit of a tradwife conservatism revival,
and you have an entire Trump administration where every woman
(34:46):
looks like a carbon copy of the next. The long hair,
the makeup, all of that. Holly, have you ever had
your hair short? Are you someone who.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
When I was a kid. Yeah, right, I had my
hair short when I was a kid. I've got lots
of photos of me with really short hair, but I've
never had it shorter than my shoulders in adulthood like
I've had it up here? Should lengths?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Do you think it's a rebellion too? Just because I'm
a mum doesn't mean well?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
And I think that now it is definitely an act
of personal rebellion to have really long hair, even though
it's not very cool, and people I mean, well, apparently
it is now actually, but it hasn't been very cool
in the last year. I remember when I went and
for mid I did, I got my style assessed by
that woman who's apparently an expert in like mature lady stuff,
and she was like, cut your fucking hair. And people
(35:33):
often say that to me, They're like, cut your hair,
and I'm like, no, because it feels and maybe it
is like internalized ages in me. It feels like me
like me to have my long hair, you know what
I mean, Like I just feel like that. It's interesting
because I think for older women, I think it is
that symbol like you look at a Demimore or whoever
(35:54):
you know, and they've got this very long hair and
definitely a youth play. Definitely it is, even if it
doesn't necessarily work. Like I don't think that my long
hair makes me look younger. It just makes me feel
you know what I mean. But for younger women it's
back in fashion too, And why is that.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I think that that's because of this ultra feminine idea.
And the men that I know who had long hair
have just recently all cut it short, so it's almost
like this confirming of the gender roles. But when I
became a mum, I was like, I am absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Not cutting my hair getting the mum bob.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I'm not doing it because I don't want to look
And I love my mom. She's great, her hair's great.
But I'm like, I think every woman doesn't want to
look like their mum because then you're like, I look.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Like a mum.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
I would look like my mum because when I was little,
in all the photos, she had short hair. And so
I wonder if we all just rebel against what our
mothers look like. Like I know my mum rebels against
the perm like my nan had the you know the
older woman had the kind of would go and get
their hair set. My mom would never do that. That's
for old ladies. And so I wonder if it's kind
of this pendulum shift. How about you, you am? Are you
(37:02):
finding that your mates are growing it long? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I think everyone tried the bob in their early twenties
on mid twenties and now they're growing it out. But
I have this weird thing in my head, like ever
since I was young, where I thought every woman wanted
to have short hair, but they couldn't have short hair
because men prefer long hair. So the only women who
had short hair were women in relationships because they were
(37:26):
allowed to because they already caught one. Yeah, they really
caught one. So in my head like I just don't
think I could ever do.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
That's funny because I cut my hair when I was
maybe at school, like maybe seventeen or something, just like
quite short and with the boys like oh yeah. So
someone said to me, you cut your hotness off, which
I think is was his way of saying, your face sucks.
And the blonde hair at least like covered it a
little bit, And now I was so much face. I
(37:53):
don't think I have the bone structure. You know that
TikTok filter that tells you whether you can pull off
short hair. It said to me, absolutely, well.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
This is the thing. Is like hair a bit like
every time they tell us that various body parts of
ours are either in fashion or out. It's like that
bob that everybody had for a hot minute, The County
bob looks amazing on a handful of people. Yeah, like amazing.
But I remember when that lady told me to do it,
I was like, have you seen my jawline? Like I
don't mean that to be like self deprecating, but it's
(38:20):
not for everyone.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I had one of my best mates at college at
UNI who was definitely cool. When we had that conversation
about who is called my friend Suzanne is the coolest,
she just shaved her head. Like just wish it was
one of those women. She was only twenty and she
just shaved her head and she looked incredible. But like
the rest of us, we would have looked like potatoes
if we'd have done that. So, you know, I think
(38:44):
we can't, like we slave to trends. The idea that
it is still deeply ingrained that men prefer longer hair
in heterosexual situations is so depressing, Like.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Really, is it true? I think it's true.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, it's true. Culturally it's true, because it's like, why
do they because they've been.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Taught to because we look more fertile.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah, we look younger and more fertile, and culturally that's
what they've always been told. You know, all the sexy
girl you never see a lingerie model with short hair
or you know, like any kind.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Of Victoria's Secret.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
When have you ever seen a Victoria's Secret model of
short hall? Like that kind of very cliched, male gayzy
idea of beauty always comes with long hair, which is
why I mean, hair isn't just hair for lots of
different reasons, right, but that's one of them is that
when you cut it off, you're kind of going cute.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
After the break are weekly recommendations, including a new novel
that was so good and made me spiral.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my
best recommendation Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our best recommendations.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Jesse. Okay, it's not often that Jesse recommends be related things,
but last week I discovered that expensive hair care actually works.
And this week I have terrible news, which is that
I think we're using Primer again.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
We are, I think we are?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
We are.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I've also purchased a Primer recently.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, so what happened was I've got quite oily skin
and I was finding that I was putting my makeup
on in the morning.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's a very youthful problem to have, you think, Yeah,
oh my god, shut up.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I just felt like my makeup was dripping off my
face by the end of the day, and I'd look
in the mirror and it was patchy. And I use
powder because when we film and stuff, the lights can
be a bit intense, like a setting powder, like a
setting powder, and I thought that was going to keep
it on. But I was just having issues. So the
other day, I have a feeling. I end up in Mecca,
right and I'm like, I came across the Laura Mercia
(41:09):
primer and I remembered I had it years ago. I
ran out and I just never refilled it, and I
grabbed it. I grabbed the blurring one, which is meant
to be a little bit more matifying, because I went,
if I do something too glowy or hydrating, I'm just
gonna look really shiny. Grabbed that. I don't want to
say it changed my life, but for seventy nine dollars,
(41:30):
you'd hope, oh my god, seventy nine dollars. And it's
a really small bottle. So I'm horrified. It's a good
one though, because it's also it.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Must have been having big feelings.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I was having big feelings. There's a lot going on,
so apparently it hides the appearance of pause. No comment
on that one, but that I have staring deep yeah pause,
poor poor. But what I will say is that I
put that on underneath, and it's like glue. Like my
makeup all day is stuck. I'm not having to reapply.
(42:01):
It's not patchy. It all goes on so much smoother now.
Seventy nine is a lot. So the other day my
friend was using the new go to. I thought, yep,
and I glowy. I tried the glowy one. I've used
the mat which I thought the glowy. Surely I'm gonna
look ridiculous, not too glowy, not too shiny at all.
(42:22):
And again kept my makeup on all day and it's
got some skin care in it. Yeah, and that one's
forty nine, so it's a little bit more affordable.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I've got a cheaper one for you. Oh yes, please,
I've got a Maybeline one. It's called Grippy Serum. I'm
wearing it right now.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Actually, you're looking very glowing, thank.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
You so much, hold everything together, and isn't super shiny.
I think it's around fourteen dollars a price.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Okay, I'm going to try that one. I really like
my cinema. It on my desk. I'll give it to you.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Do you think because Primate comes in, Primate goes out.
I remember Lee Campbell saying on New Beauty years ago, like, nah,
don't bother, but I haven't heard what her current judgment
is on Prima, so just came back. Maybe Primate got
better because the thing about Primate is I always feel
like it's just another layer. I'm already piling on, like
Serum's moisturizer, then it's Primate, then it's this and that.
(43:10):
But you reckon it really has made a difference.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yeah, and apparently it does seal. So what I do
in summer, especially is I do my sunscreen and then
I put the primer over the top, and that's pretty
much all I'm doing because I was doing too many layers,
and I think that's why I was looking like I'd
just gotten out of the shower. So, especially for oily
skinned girls, I think that primer is on your best friend.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
I also noticed it makes my makeup easier to take
off at night time, Like it doesn't sink again as much.
I'm not scrubbing my face as much when I'm taking it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Listen to us kind of. I've got a podcast, the
BBC podcast that I was recommended on the weekend and
immediately listen to while I was driving and I'm addicted to.
It's called The Gift, And this is a podcast that
the concept for is like, you know that you've done this.
Haven't you done the DNA test? You know that the
(43:59):
ancestry the twenty three and me those tests that you
do to find out about your genetic and family history
and all those things.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
They keep finding like long forgotten sea real killers who
they couldn't find for decades through their cousins' ancestry DNA tests.
So yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
So this genius podcast, The Gift, is all about that.
Each episode follows a different story of a mess that
came about because of an ancestry test.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
We had that in my own family, actually quite recent
we had a child come forward that wenty my dad.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
There are some in my friend groups that have found
out some interesting things about themselves from doing these tests.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Have you done one huh.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I've never done one, but now I want to because
I just want to see what shit comes from. So
it's not new this show, but I've just discovered it.
So there are two series you can listen to if
you go and find it. But the first one and
the one that got me absolutely hooked, was basically about
how a series of different testers in the UK. Because
this is a BBC show, there's some American stories there,
some British stories found through doing their DNA test that
(45:01):
they were children of Dona sperm and they didn't know that.
But then what they then went on to find out
about the murky ethics about where that sperm came from
is really really interesting because I didn't know this, but
like nearly all fertility treatments in the UK, and I'm
sure in other places too, we're not regulated at all
until the nineties. So it was just the wild West.
(45:22):
So the guy could be saying, oh, this Donus sperm
comes from blah blah, and it could have just been well,
I won't tell you because that would be a spoiler.
But it's such a good show. It's kind of long
form storytelling. It's really good for drives. Hot Girl walks, etc.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
How about you, en, Okay, I've just finished reading a book.
It is called very You.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Made that sound like you don't usually, but actually you
read all the time.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
I read all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
I really recommend them because I always forget that they
can and I just think it's a really cool thing
to have when you know how to read good. I'm
smiling because it's a new book and I know you
guys haven't read it yet, because yeah, fresh and new,
you read it?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
No, no, no, no, no no no. I think it's on my desk,
though it's on your desk, because I have a feeling it's.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Claire's publisher published this book. It's called Very Impressive for
Your Age by Ellena Kirk. It's her debut novel and
she's quite young. Have you noticed everyone's named Evelyn?
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Now, yes, suddenly Evelyn is everywhere anyway? Is it aussy?
It is aussy?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So it's about this character named Evelyn. She's twenty six
years old and she's Australian and she's one of those
like child prodige. It's like she's an amazing, amazing, amazing singer.
So after high school she moves to Europe, and she's
currently in Germany doing these massive operas like she's been
written about. She's doing all these amazing auditions. She's on
the stage, she's singing this huge ballad. No sound comes
(46:44):
out of her voice, oh wow. And it's about how
she just completely loses her singing ability. She can talk
and stuff, but when it comes to singing, no sounds
coming out.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And it's kind of about what happens when the one
thing you're good at you can't do anymore. And she
moves back to Australia, she now has to work back
in old high school. She's kind of like having to
revert her life. It's also one of those characters that
you just deeply dislike but you want them to win.
It is so so good and also so so funny.
(47:16):
I love books that just make me laugh, and this
one made me really really laugh.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
I find that one of the most interesting questions I
think with athletes when their careers end and you go,
who are you without your skill?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Like?
Speaker 3 (47:27):
And I think it happens to everyone. It's at some
point and the thing you think that was part of
your identity you lose.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
And also just the people around you you lose as well,
because I like what you say. You to me now, yes, true,
it's so good.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I've heard really good things about this.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
What's it called again?
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I'm very impressive for your age by Ellen or Kirk.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Thank you so much out Louders for being here with
us for another week. We love you for it. Don't forget.
You can watch us on YouTube if you want to.
And if you want to judge everybody's prime please don't
do that. Don't watch it closely at our face that
they won't, but m Jesse read this out.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Ruth Divine, executive producer Sasha Tanic I've seen.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Your audio producer is Leah porge'es. Our video producer is
Josh Green.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
It's his birthday.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Happy birthday, Josh, Happy birthday, Josh. And our junior content
producers are Coco and Tessa. But wait, there's more, because
we cannot go without telling you about a brand new
Muma mea podcast and you may have heard about it
because it was made by the out Louders for the
out Louders, and it is unlike anything that has been
made in Australia before. It is called this is Why
(48:37):
We Fight, and it launches today. It is Australia's first
and only therapy based podcast. So if you ever watched
Couple's Therapy and you love kind of watching like I mean,
I suppose it's drama and it's real people and it's
real problems. We've kept them anonymous so there aren't names,
(48:58):
but we have a clinical psychologist named Sarah Bays who
sits and counsels essentially people through real life problems. And
today's episode deals with a couple and their different definitions
of cheating. It's about trust, it's about boundaries in a relationship.
It is exceptional listening and I could not rate it
(49:18):
more highly. So that is your weekend listening sorted. You've
got your mum Mia out Loud, You've got your this
is Why We Fight and of course the latest episode
of Parenting Out Loud we'll drop on Saturday morning. Tick
links to everything we've mentioned on today's show will of
course be in the show notes. Bye Cia.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Shout out to ANYMMA mia subscribers listening. If you love
the show and you want to support us, subscribing to
Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description,
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