The Great Feminist Exhaustion & One Of Us Has No Charisma

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia. Out Loud What women are actually talking about
on Friday, the twenty fifth of July. I'm Holly Wayne Wright.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'm Mia Friedman, and the universe clearly wants me to
shut up because I just cannot get my voice back.
If any out louders have any tips for a returning voice,
please send them.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
No, it doesn't hurt, No, just sounds bad.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm Jesse Stevens and I've been sick for two and
a half weeks and I just cannot like sick yourself.
I just feel so congested and uncomfortable and like sneezy
and running nose and everything. It's so annoying.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's boring you sick pictures. I'm sitting with you, and
here is what we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
There's now a machine that can make you more charismatic
in just a few minutes. But you don't want to
spend too long in their hollywayen right, because too much
charisma can actually make your life harder. And I'm going
to explain why that.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Is also my rite of reply on some slanderous comments
made by my co host while I was away about
a certain book called The Saltpath, and also some actually
very useful recommendations.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
For your weekend, plus the great feminist exhaustion, and Helen
Peterson has put words around what so many of us
are feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
But first, in case you missed it, men are getting
anti wrinkle injections injected into their scrotums and it's called scrotox.
Do you have any questions?

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yes? Isn't wrinkles the point?

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Aren't wrinkles a feature not a bug of a scrotum?
I thought a scrotum was meant to be a bit
drinkly like, But.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
An aging scrotum sinks like gets longer, gets more, does
it does? So that's what men often.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Stop flexing that you've never seen one, Jess.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
You know how women we've only recently discovered that things
happen down there as we get older, but men have
long felt insecure about what will happen to their scrotim
as they age.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Okay, okay, this is why this is why nature gave
us pubic hair, because we shouldn't be looking too close.
We shouldn't be examining the genitals. And when you remove
the pubic hair, what you find is you start stressing
over your innkly scrotum like.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
A hairless cat. Yes, almost always look.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
The question that I'd like to know is when was
the last time you took a good long look at
a scrotum up close? And how to think about how
it could be improved. Esthetically speaking, I'm going to give
you a little bit of thinking music.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
I don't know if I've ever liked, really say one.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
You know, well, let me save you from more pondracs
to discuss. Yeah, aren't you glad you're listening to this show?

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Because did you know? According to all the medical shows
I've watched, one of the most painful things a man
can experience his testicular torsion. I think twisted testicle. When
they twist and if you don't untwist them, then you
get some issues. You've got to go in get them
you twisted out.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
How you can either lose the testicle or die. I
forget which one. Don't follow us for medical advice. I
interviewed the Blue Wiggle Anthony once and he told a
very funny story about waking up with a twisted testicle
and having to go to hospital because you've got a
certain amount of time called. He called one of the
other wiggles, but he called someone and they said, get
to a hospital. If they don't fix this within a

(03:45):
certain small window. Testicle gone blue wiggle had a blue testicle.
He did, and he talks about going in there and
being examined and someone peering up from between his legs going,
hang on, wait, aren't you the blue wiggle. So the
reason that men are doing it is to smooth wrinkles,
reduce sweat and as you say, Holly, help testicles hang lowa,

(04:10):
giving the illusion of size. Apparently, what this sounds like.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
A young man's game.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Wouldn't the bigger the scrotum, the smaller the penis looks,
wouldn't you preferred? That's interesting? The smaller scrotum as like
a comparison.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, someone who's done it is a guy called Zach Wickham.
He's a reality star on a show called The Valley,
and he spoke to People magazine recently and he said
that he got it because apparently it feels really good
during sex, and it just looks esthetically better and he said,
you know how balls go up and down. I was
just like, you know what, Let's see what happens when

(04:45):
they stay down. And he said, my balls definitely hung
at their lowest for a couple of months until it
wore off. So I would say it was aesthetically nice,
and they said it could feel better during sex, but
I don't know if I really noticed that. And then
he said, my boyfriend said they just look normal though,
which was kind of disappointing.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Oh, I wonder if it hurts, would hurt the injection?

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, it started around twenty nineteen that people have been
asking for it, but it remains niche with no official
data available, but side effects and risks very important, typical
issues around any injection site bruising, swelling, randomness. Plus there's
also a theoretical risk of sperm impacting temp regulation disruption.
Oh and deeper injections carry other risks. But all I

(05:30):
can think of is, you know how someone once said,
when you get a bit older and you're putting eyeshadow
on your lid, it's a bit like trying to put
eye shadow on a scrotum. Have you noticed that?

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Apparently we have reached the great feminist exhaustion, And as
soon as I read that headline, I thought vibe. And
Helen Peterson published an article on substack last week all
about how feminism has exhausted us in a myriad of ways. Firstly,
its meaning has been exhausted. It's fractured and confused. It's
been appropriated by pop culture and politics. But it's also

(06:05):
left women exhausted, particularly the twenty tens. So you'll lean
in feminism where we were told we were meant to
work harder than men while caring for kids and elderly parents,
and it's led to this kind of feminist dystopia. And
she writes about how so many of the books and
TV shows and movies we consume are actually about this

(06:26):
feminist dystopia, like Night Bitch for example, or Girls like
those shows are actually about the sort of dissatisfaction that
a lot of women are feeling. Peterson has divided exhausted
feminism into four categories, and I want to know if
you relate to any slash all of them. First category,
she calls it, fuck it, Let's fight. Some women are

(06:47):
exhausted by the anger and division. They feel like they're
about to get kicked out by more radical feminists than
them who think that pissing people off is actually the point.
Do you really?

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yes, hard relate. I call them the feminist police. Yeah yeah,
I feel the sheriffs of feminism and they drive me nuts.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Feminism and social movements have always needed the agitators and
always needed the loud voices and the people who say
on popular things. But I think that this infighting has
made some women particularly tired. Second group status quo buyer's remorse.
So Peterson's theory is that this is where a lot
of Gen x's and millennials have gone. Right, we did

(07:28):
all the things we were meant to and were left
wondering where the happiness is. So this is the group
that did the degree, not you two, got the job,
maybe got married not Holly, maybe had kids. Whatever, they
did what they were supposed to, and they've got to
the end of it and gone. I feel unfulfilled. I
am struck by the domestic inequality within my marriage, and

(07:50):
they're resentful about the inequalities that still exist. Does anyone
relate to that one?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean, obviously it's true, but I have a broader
problem with all of this, that none of that is
feminism's fault.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, we'll go to number three and then I will
allow you a right of reply. Holly Group three, Mum,
that sucks. I don't want your life. So this is
Gen Z and Gen Alpha and they're like, mum, you
don't look happy. Fuck that they think if feminism made
their elders so cranky, then they want something different.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
But do they think that there are people in the world,
women in the world, whose lives are perfect and easy
and they're happy all the time, and that those people
are not feminists.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
So they think that the reason their mothers are so
burnt out and miserable and pissed off is a direct
result of feminism. That feminism told them that they had
to work really really hard heart of the men, and
they're exhausted and they're just going nuts.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
All women were really happy once upon a time, Yes,
when they didn't have jobs and they didn't have any
control over their fertility, which is a mythical time, when
they didn't have jobs as we always were, and they
didn't have their own money, and they didn't have any agency.
They were really really happy back then.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Vote has been quite tired.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Definitely having to think of it.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
A vote for so true. Group four, Fuck feminism, Fuck
you too. This group has found feminism so exhausting that
they are attracted to the simplicity and the domestic joy
of traditionalism. So they are re embracing all the things
that gen X disavowed. They're the ones who are going,
you know what, I'm a triad wife. I've had enough

(09:25):
of all this stuff. I feel left out by the
people who are yelling at me. My mum didn't seem
that happy after all. I'm just going to make some sourdough, Holly.
First question, are you exhausted?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
I'm exhausted by this ridiculous debate about feminism that seems
to suddenly be everywhere we turn. We talked about this
a few weeks ago after one of the biggest podcasts
in the world had a feminist round table, and we
talked about that and everywhere I look at the minute,
it seems to me that people are blaming the messy,
imperfect lives of women and the struggles of women on feminism,

(10:03):
when I don't think that that is the problem. I
don't think that's the problem at all. There are so
many other culprits to the reasons why our lives aren't great, right, Like,
it has never been harder for a lot of women
than it is at the moment, or people in general,
to just have a decent, ordinary, dignified life, to be
able to afford one right, that is really really hard.

(10:24):
Everybody is finding it much much harder to make ends
meet and aspire to things that we used to think
were totally attainable. That's not feminism's fault. I know exhausted
women who do not work outside the home, like parents
who do not work outside the home. I know plenty
of those are exhausted. I know plenty of young women
who do not have children who are exhausted. Because all

(10:45):
of this sets up this idea broadly that we told
women that they had to do everything, and that the
code for that is have children and work. That's what
that's code for. And look what it's done. It's ruined them.
And I just think it's a false argument. I don't
think that that is what is exhausting women. I think
there are a million other reasons why most people are

(11:07):
exhausted now, and I think a lot of it's cost
of living related, a lot of its technology related, a
lot of it's basically music to your ears, Jesse, capitalism related.
And I don't think that feminism is to blame.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Don't you think though, that if you look back at
the civil rights movement, which was sort of late nineteen
fifties into the nineteen sixties, there was a set of
stated aims and they were really clear. It was about
legal challenges and dismantling segregation and affording Black Americans the vote, right, Like,
there were these things that they wanted to accomplish.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Same with the gay rights movement.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, and there was a method and there was kind
of a bar of success. Not to say a lot
of black activists in the US would say we have
a long, long way to go, which they absolutely do,
but there was certain criteria by which they could measure
whether this movement was successful or not.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Right, didn't feminism or also have that? Wasn't it about
a quality?

Speaker 1 (12:02):
I think?

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Isn't it Like any major movement, the battlefields change depending
on the circumstance of your time. So literally, back to
what MEA was just saying, there was a time when
women could not vote in lots of Western nations, and
so obviously that was the most important thing at the time.
Then there was a time that women were not allowed
to have their own bank accounts or hold down a

(12:24):
job after they were married, and so that was the
most urgent argument of the time. I think that broadly speaking,
feminism still has the same point as it always has,
which is view women as humans who are equal to
all other humans.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
Right. I feel as though maybe feminism, the confusion, how
convoluted it's become, is contributing to the sense of exhaustion.
So to some feminists, the people that we're critiquing are
other women, right, And I'm not immune from this. I've
absolutely done this too. So we're in this dog fight
where we're arguing about how long you stay at home

(13:00):
with kids and all these kind of personal choices, while
Roe v. Wade is being overturned, while a woman a
week has been killed, while you've still got a gender
pay gap, while women's health is still underfunded, and I
wonder if we've lost sight.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
But I would argue Jesse that those things you're talking
about before about staying at home are not feminist arguments.
They're just arguments about different kinds of people making other
ones that you are just discussing are really important feminist arguments,
I think, and Mia says this all the time, so
I'm just going to quote her. Not everything that affects
women is about feminism, and not every choice that women

(13:37):
make is about feminism. Like just as I said before
about how not everything that's wrong with our lives is
about feminism, or whether or if women are arguing about something,
they disagree about something, it's not necessarily about feminism, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
I think the term itself has become I won't say meaningless,
but very far removed from what it actually means. And
you see this all the time when an individual woman
does an individual thing, good or bad, and it suddenly
becomes this existential conversation about feminism and about all women.

(14:09):
And I think that that's partly because women are much
more likely to compare ourselves to other women, so we
see other women's decisions and choices as somehow being an
indictment on our own if they're different. There's stuff that
you believe in principle, like that women should be allowed
to work outside the home and earn money, and then
there's reckoning with that that a lot of women don't

(14:33):
want to do that straight away. They want to be
at home with their children more that doesn't make them
a bad feminist. That just means that society isn't necessarily
set up for families or women to make the choices
that are right for them. Like there's a real misconception
among some people that feminism says you've got to be

(14:54):
Sherylf Sanberg or you've got to go and be Kim Kardashian,
You've got to Feminism don't saying anything. Feminism just says,
as Holly said, we want the choice because we want equality,
we want to be treated. We don't want to be men,
but we want the same rights men.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
And I want to be able to be as messy
and imperfect and complicated and sometimes argumentative and sometimes happy
and sometimes tired and sometimes all those things just like
anyone else.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
I wonder if it's a life stage thing too, in
that feminism, you know, even up until your twenties, depending
on your life experiences, and your life experience is very
much informing relationship with feminism, but can make you feel
like there is a sameness with men, and then you're confronted.
Some women are confronted with a biological reality, which is
that there's a difference and we still haven't quite worked

(15:41):
out what to do with that, And.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
I think feminism doesn't tell you what to do. It
just says you should be able to make the choice
about whether to wear pads, about who you want to
vote for, about whether you have a bank account in
your own name, about whether you get a divorce or not,
about how many children you have and when you have them,
all those same choices that men have always had.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
So is that just this heaviness? That's what I wonder
is so many things have been conflated with feminism necessarily right,
that there's this heaviness, and are not constantly wearing and
advocating for all of those things all of the time,
then it feels like you're either failing at feminism or
I don't know, you're not living coherently with your ethics
or whatever it is, and therefore you want to throw

(16:22):
it all off and kind of go I feel like
I am suffocating. Whereas in all movements and all civil
rights movements, when there's been success, people have generally chosen
a thing, right, It's like your thing is I really
care about domestic violence advocacy or women's health or whatever.
But now it's like you've got to care about fifty

(16:45):
five things and advocate for them equally all of the time.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
I don't know who's telling you that. I genuinely don't.
And I also think it is a misrepresentation to think
that any big social movement, everybody in it has always
thought exactly the same things and been entirely aligned on goals.
It's not true. Every social movement in the world is fragmented,
has within it various camps who care more about some
things than others, have people who will argue about the priorities.
And also one of the things that I see happening

(17:09):
a lot at the moment, and I don't want to
sound like a conspiracist, but it's not an accident that
suddenly we're being fed everywhere we look like feminisms done,
women bad everywhere I look at the minute. That's what
I'm seeing. And you know, I'm seeing all these things
on Instagram that'll be like, imagine the propagander it took
to convince us that this was oppressive. That's something I

(17:29):
get sold all the time, which'll be yes, a woman
looking really happy with her children. No one was trying
to convince everybody that that was oppressive. But it's an
organized resistance. That's what I genuinely believe. I think that
my daughter, who is fifteen and lives on TikTok and
so on, is facing an organized resistance to feminism that
I did not face as a gen X woman. We're

(17:51):
different issues. We literally were going. You know, it's quite
radical to care about your career and maybe not change
your name if you got married, and blah blah blah blah.
But I didn't have this ground swell of very powerful
forces who are invested in keeping this down like it's intro.
I know I sound a little bit hyperbolic when I
say that, but I genuinely think so because I think that,

(18:13):
as you said earlier, Jesse, about how very real things
are happening in lots of different parts of the world
in different ways that are winding back rights of women
as a reaction to feminism in broad terms, And so
it's not an accident that suddenly, in little trickles everywhere
we're seeing all this. But wouldn't it just be empowering

(18:33):
to just let a man make all the decisions? And
of course, of course life is difficult for all of us,
and at times it's like, wouldn't it be great if
someone else just made all the decisions, have made all
the money, and i'd but it's a false situation that
never existed. It's never been perfect to not have power
over your life, and it's never been perfect to have

(18:53):
power over your life. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (18:55):
I think that your sort of sense of exhaustion, which
Peterson talks about, is like, we already protested this. I've
already been to this protest. I've already fought for this,
and I thought we won it, and now it's being
wound back and I'm having the same arguments I was having.
I know, my mum feels like this thirty forty years ago,
and it's like, really, do we have to go back.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
To Well, imagine how American women must feel. Yeah, Like, literally,
women in America no longer have control over their own
bodies in most states. It's astonishing. And I also understand
what you're saying, Jesse, about the exhaustion that we feel
by the purity tests of some feminists. I think that
the other problem with the word and the way it's

(19:37):
been co opted. The most extreme and loudest people are
the ones that have sort of got the cultural hold
on the word and a lot of women will look
at those people and go ooh, I don't want to
be in a club that she's in.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
With any movement, it's about you look at who you're
standing beside, and sometimes it becomes more about who you're
standing beside than what the word actually represents to you,
and you kind of go ooh, do I feel comfortable
in this club surrounded by these people?

Speaker 2 (20:02):
And I don't think we should let ourselves be tricked
into losing something so important because there are people who
are saying, oh, so you think this, this and this,
and it's like no, but that doesn't mean I disavowed
the entire movement.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
The loudus voice doesn't speak for all of us. It
used to be back in the twenty tens and the
early two thousands. Remember every female celebrity that was interviewed,
there was the gotcha question do you call yourself a feminist?

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (20:26):
But famously Julie Bishop and Jackie O didn't And it's
like ooh, and it was like it was a gotcha
because there were also these stereotypes of what does it mean?
Does it mean I hate men? Does it mean I
can't shave my own pits? Does it mean, I can't
like clothes.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
There was also an emptiness to that, though, because it
was like, if I wear this badge, then I don't
actually have to do anything. And I understand that.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Girl power in the spice.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
Carl, Yes, there's this exhaustion, and I don't think we
can have this chat without acknowledging it. Of just like
if you are a woman of color, if you were
a disabled woman, if you are a poor woman, if
you are a migrant woman, you feel like you've been
totally marginalized by this movement from the beginning, from at
least the popular palatable, even though those women have been

(21:06):
writing about feminism for just as long.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
One hundred percent. And there's a lot of very valid
criticism about white feminism and about white feminists just like us,
who are more likely to advocate for things that aren't intersectional.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
And maybe Cheryl Samberg felt like her brand of feminism worked.
She was, of course, that was it cooo of Facebook. Yeah,
she was, Yeah, And she wrote that famous book Lean In,
And I can just see the frustration of kind of
looking at that and going, well, if we only see
feminism as like material wealth or like's.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
But Catlin Moran's point was always that there should be
one hundred books about one hundred different types of things,
and there are. The other thing that Katlin and Moran
says is that we shouldn't confuse feminism with Buddhism. So
describing yourself as a feminist does not mean that you
support every choice that every woman in the world makes.

(22:01):
And also being a woman and making a choice does
not make that choice a feminist choice. It makes it
a choice that a woman or many women have made.
So seeing everything that women do in the world through
this lens of is it feminism? Are they being a
good feminist? Has feminism failed? That to me is exhausting.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
You're so right, But isn't it interesting that when these
big things are happening and bubbling up, women are being
convinced that other women, so who's made a different life
choice to mine, is my enemy.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
And I am her enemy.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
It's not true. I reject this idea that it's feminism
that's the problem. I think that it's very very fishy
that that's suddenly the mainstream discourse.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Out louders in a moment, we are going to explain
the secret of charisma, and I'm going to tell you
who's on top of the out loud leader board in
terms of who hasard.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Out louders.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
We've got a listener dilemma, and we need your collective
wisdom to help us solve it. Please, here is the problem.
The other day I met up with a good friend
for coffee at our usual spot. We hadn't caught up
in a so I was really looking forward to a
proper chat, But about fifteen minutes in, things took an
unexpected turn. She started raving about these amazing new cleaning

(23:19):
products she'd discovered, and at first I thought she was
just being enthusiastic. But then came the catalog, the sign
up forms, and that's when I realized I wasn't just
catching up with a friend. I was being pitched to.
She was surprisingly persistent, telling me how this was at
once in a lifetime business opportunity and how I'd be

(23:40):
perfect for it. I did my best to stay polite,
make a few non committal noises, and eventually escaped by
saying I had an appointment I couldn't miss. Now I'm
stuck in this weird place. I care about her, and
I don't want to be rude, but I also don't
want to get trapped in another awkward sales pitch. So
what do I do the next time she texts and
asks to catch up again? The question is what do

(24:02):
you do next?

Speaker 3 (24:03):
That is a really hard one. Yeah, Maya, what I
want from you is like the words that she is
meant to say this friend.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
The words that you say, or you can follow it up.
So she froze, which I totally understand. She's gone away
she comes back in a text or the next time
I see each other or reply to the email with
all the forms. Hey, this looks amazing, but weirdly, I'm
also in the middle of an exciting new business opportunity
selling essential oils, and I really need to focus all

(24:36):
my attention on this business opportunity. But if it doesn't
work out with you and the cleaning products, let me know,
because I actually think that you would be fantastic at
this opportunity and I can send you more information about it.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
She's a genius.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
I would say, thank you so much. Does sound really
really exciting. I'm not in any sort of financial position
to but Jesse.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
You can make so much more money upside is huge.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yeah, I know, I just don't have any money, not
one dog, I can't even pay for this coffee. In fact,
I was hoping you would pay for this coffee.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
I also, if you don't have the confidence to come
back with a lie like I just suggested, you could
also just say this sounds amazing, So you've got to
give her a little compliment, and then you go, I
just don't have the bandwidth to take on anything else
at the y.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yes, I like that.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
No one can argue with bound.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
With I like that, And then I think that if
she persists, I think we've got to put the friendship
on rest, because that is not That is not what
friendship is. It's not selling to each.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Other absolutely out loud as what would you do next?
Share your thoughts in the Mama Mia outloud Facebook group. Also,
if you have a dilemma, send it to us. We'd
love to hear it out loud at mamamea dot com
dot au. We're gonna help you.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
What are the ingredients of charisma and do you have
to be born with it or can you develop it
with a machine.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I'm very interested. I always thought that you did have
to be bored with it. As much as you can
read all these tips about how to get more of it.
You can't deny that sometimes you meet people and there's
just a thing about them, right, So just a lean
in quality.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
So personality is for to sixty percent inheritable, like it's inherited, right.
So the idea that you would be an extra vet,
or you would be agreeable, or you would be particularly
neurotic or whatever it is, is based on your genetics.
But there are certain things you can do. It's like
learning to be a public speaker, like anyone if they
did enough training could probably tell us.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
First of all, you've got to understand what the components
of charisma are. So if I said to you whole,
what do you think the traits of a charismatic person are?
There's two?

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Confidence, probably I'd say, no, oh, what's the next one?
Attractiveness comes into it, and it doesn't have to be
necessarily conventional attractiveness because I often think that charisma to
be is a very male coded word, even though we
all know lots of charismatic women. True, you more often
hear people say he's charismatic, And when you ask Google

(26:57):
who's charismatic, they're always men, And often it's a compliment
paid to men who are not necessarily conventionally attractive, but
have an aura around them.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Do you think it means someone you want to fark
like secretly?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
I think no, because I don't think it's sexual. I
don't think charisma is sexual, but I think it's code
for someone who makes you feel good.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Interesting. And you're not wrong about confidence and personality, because
three of the traits that can make you more likely
to think someone has charisma are attractiveness, extraversion, and intelligence. Jesse,
how would you describe charisma like if you think of
some charismatic people like me, what do you think the
components of my charisma are.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I'd love to disagree with her, but she's actually not
wrong with me. It is very charismatic.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, this is painting, Jesse, because she might have to
say something nice about me.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Look, I what do you think it is? I looked
it at what makes someone charismatic? And picture of me?
You can know there was not a picture of you
at all. In fact, when I did ask Google, the
first twenty results were men, and then the Google AI
feature gave me six examples, all men.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
So charisma is very.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
AI is very very sexist.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Tell me who they were?

Speaker 3 (28:12):
So you're Barack Obama, You, George Clooney, you're Tom Cruise,
Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, lots of like people who
make speeches.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
But I'm watching Drive to Survive. Do you know who?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
I think?

Speaker 1 (28:25):
No, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
He's just hot.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
That's a different thing. Daniel Ricardo, you think yes.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
One of the reasons why it's not it was about
attractiveness is think of somebody and this is is because
you said cars. But who is? Like I don't mean
to be horrible, but it's actually repugnant to me in
many ways. He's Jeremy Clarks, but he has bags of charisma?
Does Boris Johnson? Right? I know these are englishmen. I'm
pulling out here again, like eh, but bags of charisma?

(28:52):
Clearly Like it's there's something Barnaby Joyce like, I'm not
not personally like I want to. But the reason that
man is successful it's not because he looks like George Clooney.
Charisma is there.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
You know a woman with charisma is Jackie Lamby. Yeah,
he has it, and I think that the reason she
has it. So extraversion is important. Confidence is important. How
you stand all that kind of stuff. So they say
how often you smile? Positive effect. So if you're someone
who's like miserable and cynical, not charismatic, I'm trying. I'm trying.

(29:25):
You're meant to lean slightly forward when someone is speaking,
friendly eye contact but not too intense. He meant to
look away every now and then, to just give them
a minute, avoid fidgeting. Apparently fidgeting is really charismatic. Mirror
the other person's body language, very tone and pace, monotone,
not charismatic. So there are all these things that you
can kind of learn, But this one I found really interesting.

(29:46):
There's been this kind of recent study done by this
Australian guy about what's the quality, what is the thing?
And he said, and this was surprising to me, it
is mental speed slash behavioral flexibility. And what he meant
by that was he was talking about things like quick wit,
like being with someone who is a chameleon and.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Who can you what you Yes, you know, they often say,
and again, lots of male examples I can think of
in this, but I'm sure there are plenty of women.
They often say, you know, he made me feel like
I was the only person in the room. And again
not necessarily in a sexual way, but when they meet you,
really engaged and interested in you. Like Prince Harry probably
has charisma, Prince William possibly not.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
When I've worked with comedians or even like, I've watched
people and the thing that has blown my mind about
them is how quickly their mind is working. So Hamish Blake,
if you were to break down his charisma, I think
it's it's the how witty he is and how he
is this particular person when he does Hamish Nandy And

(30:49):
then he was on that Assembly show with Lee Sales
and he gave a different element.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Of shape shifting in a way.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yes, but not in a way that feels manipulating.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
It's like adaptability. I think you need a lot of
self awareness. The two traits that they say you were
right about affability, which is basically breaks down into those
things that you said, like the frequency of smiling and
how approachable someone is and how positive they are. Negative
people do not have charisma and influence, and influence is
judged based on qualities like the presence you have in

(31:18):
a room, which can be harder to kind of distill,
right magnetism and leadership ability. But what's interesting is that
these researchers created this machine called the charisma lator. It's
literally called that the CHARISMI Lata and it combines those
kind of mental things with physical gestures and stuff. And

(31:41):
they say that if someone just spent fifteen minutes with it,
I assume it's like.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
It's like a VR situation.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, it improves your general charisma perceived by outsiders by
seventeen percent.

Speaker 3 (31:55):
That's insane. It's like the tiny little things you do.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
So it can be learned. For some people it's innate,
and for some people that can be learned. But what's
also interesting is that if you have too much of it,
you're going to like this, it can tip over to
being it is because too much charisma can become narcissism.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
So this is this is highlighted and put on my
death and.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Overwhelming, a bit overwhelming to be around those people.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Like, you know what, you don't want too much charisma.
You don't want it, and you don't want it because
people don't trust you because they think that you kind
of all talk, no action and apparently like it's kind
of the top echelons of charisma. People start to go no, no, no,
there's something not right here, like are you Ted Bundy,
a serial killer type thing, and I just have no
worry of ever entering that area. So that makes me

(32:40):
feel a little bit better.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think the key to people with true charisma and
the right amount of charisma is that they're the same
one on one as they are in a group. Because
you mentioned comedians, Hamish Blake is the same.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
He's a slightly yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Modified version one on one. I meansued him for my
filter and authentic yeah. And I would say the same
about Koshi for example, or about let's think.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Of someone women for women who definitely have charisma when
they walk into a room.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Well, definitely Michelle Obama, definitely.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Barack Obama. Well, we haven't met them, but I think
that there's not that big gap, whereas comedians that all
the comedians I've known or worked with, massive gap. It's performative.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
But then here's here's someone that we all know personally
and who's famous, who I think has a lot of charisma.
I don't think it's it's absolutely not. It's Kate Langbrook,
and I think she has it because she's very, very quick,
And I think that that comes down to a certain
type of intelligence where you just go whatever's going on
behind the scenes, and making all of that look easy,

(33:45):
but it's actually really really hard.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Do you know, in case people think that it's just
extroverts that can have it, Sally, I don't think it's true.
You that's Sally Hepworth. She's not massive, like she's not
a big personality like Kate Langbrook, but she's extraordinary.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Why do you think I don't have it?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I don't know that you don't have it.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
But do you know what charisma is not the best
thing you can have?

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, this is one of the things about this, right
is because I think although you know, the facts might
say you can make yourself more charismatic. I think it's
just true that some people have an X factor, whatever
it is, and that's a present. It's nice for them
that they have that. In the same way that you know,
some people are naturally very beautiful, classically beautiful, and we
act as if they've been blessed by God because in

(34:29):
a way they have. We know their life will be
made a little bit easier because of it, but will
also probably in some ways be made a little bit
more annoying. I think that trying too hard is the
opposite of being charismatic, and often charismatic people might have
a certain set of gifts, but they won't have the
other set of gifts. They won't have the studiousness, they
won't have the intelligence necessarily, they won't have a whole

(34:50):
lot of things that non character You don't have it
worshiping it tell me.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
So.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
We spoke on Monday Show about main character syndrome and
how make character syndromes ruining public spaces because everybody's the
star of their own movie. When I was researching main
character syndrome, main character syndrome is the delusion that causes
you to behave in a very not self aware way
and act in a very imperious manner that feels like
everybody else is just like an extra in your life.

(35:19):
Main character energy is different. Main character energy is actually
just charisma. And the reason that you don't have it
and people will say, oh me, you're being so mean.
You know, I think that you're the best thing in
the whole world, is because you need a degree of
narcissism to have main character energy and to have charisma.

(35:39):
You need to believe that you deserve the attention of people,
and you are the least narcissistic, least main character energy
person that I know. And that's not a judgment or
an insult or. I mean it's a compliment. I think.
I don't think it's a compliment.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Because you're exceptionally accomplished to have a massive head.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
But you know what, I want a study on. I
would like to fund a study on whether there's any
such thing as a charismatic twin because twins don't have
a level of enuling because they offering within a pair.
So I just wonder if it's like you kind of
interest if not that you feel like one half, but like, yeah,
that it kind of.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
When the two of you are together, there's more of
a force.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, maybe we have maybe together, Yeah, we have the
charisma of.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Being out with you on Saturday night. I noticed that
together you have more of a gravitational pull.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, I have one more question on this matter. It's
very hard to fake X factor in real life. Is
it possible to fake it on socials? So a bit
like the Wizard of Oz. You know how the Wizard
of Oz is just a little man behind the machine.
Do you reckon the influences and people who can build,
who are really online, can like create a charismatic presence
like almost behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
That is so true, and that.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Therefore you don't need to be charismatic in person anymore.
You can just be charismatic in your words and images
on that.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
That's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I think that's so true, and I think it also
explains by dating so complicated, because you can project an
image of charisma and have none of it when the
person meets you. I have a final question for you,
may or it's a work question. Do you think a
leader needs charisma, whether it's a leader of a team,
a CEO, someone who is like.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
This study actually talked about that, and it's like it
certainly helps. We've learnt a lot more that brilliant Susan
kanebook Quiet about Introverts and the idea of we used
to think, because it was a fairly male alpha model,
that all leaders in business or in sports teams needed
to be extroverts and needed to be that kind of
alpha presence. We've now learned that there's a lot to

(37:45):
be said for introverted leadership. Introverted charisma is less flashy.
But the problem with too much charisma in a leader,
we're talking about that tipping point of where it becomes
a liability leaders that are too charismatic. And I've worked
with some of these in the past. They tend to
be very big on show, not great on execution.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
So that's where it's so.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Interesting, this idea. And I know that I've been that
in the past where I have really been great at
talking came and exactly, but I haven't been good with
follow through. And I also think that there's probably you know,
the more I think about it in whole, I think
you've got charisma. I do, but I think that you

(38:29):
two no. I think what goes against it for you
to We often talk about how our upbringings are different.
I grew up with my parents saying you can do anything,
You're awesome. You grew up in a different way. It
was just different styles.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
And I'm sure I did tell you that. When I
was on holiday, my dad read my book and he
said to me, there were like two really good passages
in the Oh.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
My God, where if I When I write a book,
my mother writes a sonnet of written response. She doesn't
interpreting dances of excitement. And I think that part of charisma,
whether you fake it or whether you believe it, is
taking up space you know, feeling like you have the
right to take up space. And I think that that's

(39:12):
why so fewer women have it, because we're taught you
don't have the red. It's why so many men have
podcasts that go for three four hours and we're like, oh,
it's forty minutes too long, woman, it's forty two minutes.
Wo We don't want to take up too much of
their time.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
After the break, it's recommendations time. And yes, I get
my ride of reply on some salt pat slander that
was flying around last week. Behind my back one unlimited
out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday
exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link in the
show notes to get us in your ears five days
a week. And a huge thank you to all our

(39:49):
current subscribers. Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Casual, something fun. This is my best recommendation.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
It's recommendation time. I'd like to bring something to the table. Yes,
while ire with the ways Burg you bitching about me?

Speaker 3 (40:09):
Ye, yes, that's speerfectly you Jesse.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, it's that awkward moment when a book that you
thought was perfectly pleasant and you recommended to all of
the the out Louders becomes the biggest story in the
world for a hot.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Minute, and you go hide in Europe.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
I go hide somewhere else. And you said I wish
she was here. For a right of reply, I'm like,
I'm here. I stand by my recommendation.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Oh now you're getting defensive, Holly, I stand by it.
It's not true.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
The book is good. The question for recommendation is is
this a good book? Have we said what the book is?

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah, sorry, the story and question out louders. We're going
to go over excited, go to ge ahead of myself.
If you go, it's called The Saltpath by raynal Wynn.
And many of you will know that one of the
biggest stories around the world in the last few weeks
has been that this it was very much presented as
a factual memoir nonfiction, and that although many of the
facts in there are true, there's a lot of misrepresentation

(41:03):
in there. I obviously can see that. But does the
books stand is a great book?

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (41:10):
One hundred percent?

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Does an impact how you feel about it?

Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know, it's really interesting because we talk about this
a lot, but you know, when you really enjoy something,
it doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse everything about that person.
So even before all this blew up, on are the
reasons why The Salt Path is a great book. And
I listened to it actually, and Rayna Winn narrates it,
so I feel like I've spent many hours with her
hearing her story. A lot of the decisions they make

(41:35):
in that book are absolutely batshit. So it's not like
you listen to the whole thing all the way going
like you guys are amazing, like your hero what heroes
you are. There are a lot of decisions they make
in there that seem irresponsible, that seem provocative, that seem
unnecessarily difficult and harsh.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Are they the lies in Well?

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I don't know that they are, because one of the
main ones is obviously the two big things that everybody's
talking about about that are the circumstances that made these
people homeless, Because the basic premise of the book is
that this middle class, middle aged couple whose kids are
off at UNI find them suddenly homeless because they've been
ripped off. Now, in the book, there is not a
lot of detail about that, and that even when you're

(42:16):
reading it at the time without any of this knowledge
is a bit mysterious. You're thinking there must be more
to this story. But maybe legals, you know, maybe legals.
They find themselves homeless, so obviously knowing that they actually
found themselves homeless if the observer reporting is to be believed,
and I absolutely believe that it is, because that's one
of the things that needs to be noted about that
is that is a very high status newspaper. This is

(42:38):
not trashy investigation. It would have had to cross a
lot of high bars to get that story to the page.
Is that the reason they were homeless was actually because
she embezzled money, borrowed money to try and sort that out,
and that all blew up in a mess.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
I have a question, do you feel betrayed?

Speaker 2 (42:54):
No, I don't feel betrayed. I really enjoyed the book.
Just because I really enjoyed the book, and I follow
raina Win on Instagram because obviously I became interested in her.
It doesn't mean that I kind of worshiped her foot,
do you know what I mean? I just really enjoyed
the book. The other big thing that people feel very
upset about is that moth who isn't really called moth,
but that moth is battling a difficult disease, and they're

(43:18):
saying that she says that walking cured him. I will
argue that is not what she says. She at no
point in the book says that walking cured him. She
just says that actually his symptoms were alleviated by the
intense physical activity. Now, I know how complicated and thorny
that kind of irresponsible, like throwing away on a line
like that is, and that a lot of people are

(43:39):
saying that couldn't possibly be true. But maybe that was
their experience. There are lots of experiences like that from people.
I think they're allowed to own it. So I stand
by my recommendation. But I'm not saying I stand by her,
you know them, like I would go into five for them.
It's really the thing that I can't stop thinking about
the most though, is it's like that book's like seven
or eight years old. It's what kind of psyche it

(44:03):
must take, yes, to go from an unknown book to
kind of a superstar in the literary world in a
relatively short space of time, build a massive following, turn
that into your life, write two follow up books, sell
the movie rights, all of those things happening while you
knew that this was a ticking bomb, Like she must
have known. Who do you have to be to live

(44:23):
with that?

Speaker 3 (44:23):
And the story now I started with a tip off.
We still don't know who that person is. That person
may be revealed at some point, but I listened to
the observer journalists talk about it, and that tip off
I think sounds very very close to the source. So
I think that there were people around her who knew
these things, and you would just not sleep.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Did you watch the movie?

Speaker 2 (44:42):
We have watched the movie. I was going to, and
we were going to. I just haven't got around to it.
I probably still will. I found it the whole thing fascinating.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
So you won't be one of those people who were
asking for a refund from the publisher.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
She won't be suing that.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
In fact, before just before this blew up, I told
Brent that was the book you should read on holiday,
and he was halfway through it when it all blew up,
and I was like, look, you're so topical, you're so relevant,
look at you. Anyway, I have a quick recommendation, and
I have talk to talk about quick recommendation before I
go and it's a musical recommendation.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yes for a music, no for an artist.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
You know, I've talked before on the show about how
it's really hard to discover new music. I find it
really hard to discover me. And when I was away
and I was with my friends in London and we
were watching Glastonbury and you know, I love the fact
that Glastonbury has broken up into bits and you can
just sit in Britain and watch it on BBC. I
view just in segments. It's so good. I think I'm
sure you can do it on YouTube. And I was

(45:34):
watching this woman that I did not know, And it's
hard making a musical recommendation because a bit like you
discovering drive to survive fourteen years after. Like some people
will be like, uh, yeah, that's my favorite artist. I've
been listening to her for ages. Is it Charlie XCX,
no me or even I know Charlie XCX. Have you
heard of ce Maat never She Sea Matt is an

(45:55):
Irish artist, a singer songwriter. I guess you'd call her.
The reason she's called Seamat is her name is Kiara
Mary Alice Thompson. She's from Dublin and so those are
her initials. And when we play you a little bit
of this song, you either will have heard it because
it's got a hook that's all over TikTok, or you won't,
but you won't be able to stop singing it anyway.
This song is called take a Sexy Picture, and the

(46:17):
chorus is about like take a sexy picture of me
and make me look fifteen, and it's just so funny
and so smart. Listen.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
I did the butcher, I did the baker, I did
the hole and the family maker.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
I did school you see, I did leg ting.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I've heard this on TikTok and yeah, I love her.
She's a little bit sort of a del Amy Winehouse.
She's got that kind of with a little bit of
Kate Bush.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
She's so good.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
I don't know, I'm going to listen to her. I'm
very impressed by that recommendation.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
Her music is so good. Well, the best thing about
Glastonbury I thought this year was just the variety of
female young female performers from your Charlie to your Sea
Mats too, your Olivia Rodriguez to Doci to whoever, and
they're all singing about life as a young woman like
they're talking about online dating and Instagram and like, you know,
porn culture. And as she's got another one which you

(47:11):
will like, Jesse Stevens about online hatred called Jamie Oliver
petrol Station and it's about how much she hates Jamie
Oliver and yet she knows how irrational that is. And
the chorus is my new mantra is Okay, don't be
a bitch.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
You wouldn't like this, oh.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Nine interests. Anyway, she's my new recommendation, ce Matt.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
I have a niche recommendation, but it's going to be
a very helpful one to a certain segment of our audience.
And it is a new app, and it's called my Comms.
So if you have someone in your life who lives
with a disability. My cousin Simon, for example, he's got
an intellectual disability, this is for him. Or you might
have a child with autism or perhaps the language delay,

(47:59):
you will know the importance of communication and how hard
it can be because communication is literally your connection to
the world. You become so isolated if people don't understand
things like your preferences or saying no, like those things
are critical to people's agency, right, and the frustration that

(48:20):
comes with not being able to say those things is immense,
and you've felt that if you are close to someone
who struggles with language. So this app what happens is
you open it up and I've got it on my phone,
and Simon's got it on his phone, and it offers
a calendar of his week, of his day, and I
will put things in like Okay, on Saturday, we're going

(48:40):
to see this musical and then we're getting typhood. Now
they're pictures and they're real pictures. They're not cartoons that
make Simon feel like he's for they're photos. The creators
who I spoke to, they reached out their out loudders.
They said, with Simon, there's something called object permanence. So
when we were touring, for example, I would get forty

(49:01):
calls from Simon a day saying where are you? Where
are you when you're home? When you're home? And it's
because it's like a cognitive milestone to understand that, even
though you can't see something, yes there.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
And that's often when little children, I was reminded with
this with Lunar start getting there. They think they're stranger
data because when Mum's not here, where is mum?

Speaker 3 (49:22):
So what it does is it says he checks his diary,
and it says Jesse's in Perth, Jesse's in Perth, Jesse's
in Perth. And then it has a thing in his
diary that has like airplane Jesse's home from Perth. And
therefore I don't have to explain the thing every day.
It's also got choices, so you know, these women have
worked with kids who are nonverbal and they say, oh,
do you know what music they like? And their parents

(49:43):
are like, oh, don't really have a preference, and they're like, oh,
he has a preference, and he probably wants to let
you know that he hates that song Holly. So what
it has is like choices about whether it's yes or no,
or whether it's like I actually feel like Schnitzel tonight
or I feel like watching this show.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Firstly, can kids use it?

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (50:02):
And what's the level of ability do you need to
be able to read to use it?

Speaker 3 (50:07):
I don't know. So Simon can't read, but I can
set it up on my end and it's on his phone,
so all he needs to do is open the app.
And then it's also got something called tasks that like
for some people who are autistic or some people with disabilities,
things like brushing your teeth, getting dressed in the morning,
helpful mornings. It has those tasks and they're set there
every day. That's like these are the steps in pitches.

(50:29):
So it's like first you get your toothbrush, you put
toothpaste on it, you did it, and that gives these
people independence rather than you having to like talk every day.
So it's brilliant to Australian out louder is. One is
a speech pathologist. Another one worked in in schools and
knows a lot about behavior and they could see that

(50:49):
there was something missing in communication, and they've created this app.
You can find it on the App Store now. It's
just launched. It's called my Comms, One Word, my COO MMS.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
And is it free?

Speaker 3 (51:00):
It's not.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
So it's I'm glad it's not, because I was gonna say,
how can we support these creators.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
So what they've said is that like a year's subscription,
which I think is about a hundre in forty nine
a year is the cost of a session with a
speech pathologist. So it's like it's more accessible to people
who are coming up against this friction every day. Or
it's fifteen dollars a month, so even try it for
a month, see what you think. But I've been using
it with Simon and it's made such a difference. And
they said that with adults with these disabilities, Simon has

(51:29):
always resented the cartoons. He's resented the cartoons that have
angry faces and.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Everything because a lot of them are like that.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Yes, he's like, I'm not ten and you're treating me
like a child, whereas this is it treats him like an.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Adult for teenagers as well.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah, but it also just facilitates us understanding each other.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Can we put a link in the show notes and
out louders, let's spread the word far and wide, and
anyone in your life that you think could benefit from this,
please share it.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
In it even like NDAs providers in schools like it
could make a really, really big difference. There's nothing like it,
so go check it out. Maya, what's your recommendation.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
I know that I'm late to this party, and I
think you've recommended it before, but I've got to talk
about drive to survive.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Because it's actually all they want to talk about and
I don't know how it started.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
It started with me.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Jesse recommended it on the show.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Okay, yeah, but I don't listen to your recommendation.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
It was Luca and I saying all we do. Luna
couldn't sleep the other night, and she came downstairs and
she said, watching cars. She thinks we watch cars when
she goes to sleep. And then the Ferrari team came
up and she looked at it and she goes red
like Simon, like Simon wiggle, and I was like, great
small talk.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Shows were across.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Well, I know, but the ven diagram of shows that
I like with either of you bitches is very small.
But I now live with two men. My daughter's moved
out of the house. Like I like spending time with them.
It's hard to find things to watch together, right, And
my son's sixteen, my husband's older than that. And weirdly,
I'm from such an F one family. Yes you are, father,

(53:07):
my eldest son. My husband all obsessed with Formula one.
I spent years and THEWS and news and decades my
whole life going to sleep with this noise real as
my husband watched the Formula One late into the night
and I always fucking hated it. Oh my god, drama.
Why didn't anyone tell me?

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Okay, Holly, this is you've been away.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
It's one hundred million. I started at season one.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
We can get Holly on board with this.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I have watched it, watched it.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
You've already watched it, so we're gonna get I haven't
watched all of it. You on board with our plan,
which is we want to go to the Formula one
and so we need tag to watch brand. We need
a very expensive We'll go to Dubai, We'll go to Moms,
We'll go to one Melbourne spa Monaco.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Thing that's amusing about this and it's fine to be
late to the party. I'm frequently late to the party
on many things. Is that that's such a phenomena that
show that now every sport has one of those shows.
You know that, right, Like so golf has one and
Polo has Remember Harry tried, because it literally transformed the sport,
and it literally transformed the people who like the sport.

(54:12):
And now that's why, you know, just a couple of
months ago at the Melbourne one. Now there's a massive
fashion show on the first day and every influencer in
all of Australia.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Did you see the Christian Horning.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Is he got sacked?

Speaker 3 (54:25):
So we're going to have a spinoff. We used to
have Parenting Out Loud, Now we're going to have Formula one.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
I have so many questions about why Jerry Horner only
wears white and what's happened to.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
That spice girl?

Speaker 2 (54:38):
But she only wears white because of the spiritual purity.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
So then I had a really long conversation. Oh Toto Wolf,
don't even get me started. I love him and Gunter
Justice forgot I think Guntera.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Just got sacked.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Just recommending dry a little flicks seven seasons A bit
of feedback from Netflix a little bit confusing because they
don't number the episode, so a couple of times I
found myself back at the beginning of a different season.
So you got to stay sharp, utterly obsessed.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
That's it. That's officially it. TV shows from fourteen years
ago Out Loudest. Thank you for listening to all our
shows this week. It has been delightful for me to
be back with you and delightful to be back with
these bitches. Of course, we are going to be back
in your ears on Monday, Mina and Jesse read this out.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
A big thank you to our team Group executive producer
Ruth Devine. She is absolutely brimming with charisma, and now
that I've said about you, I have to say it
about everything.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
That's actually true.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
She is charismatic.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
She is our audio producer Tree pain Is, Leah Porgies
also incredibly cours you know you know Tree Maya. Keep reading. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Credits video producers Josh Green. I wouldn't say he's charismatic,
but he's lovely. He's so lovely. Guys be charismatic is
not the best true Well, it's a burden that only
some of us can carry. Our junior content producers are
Coco and Tessa.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
I'm not commenting, not on whether or not they have charisma.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
No, I think that could be an hr issue is
waiting to happen out louders. On yesterday's subscriber episode, we
tackled some very interesting dilemmas, including whether or not to
let your friend bring along a fling to a girl's dinner.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Oh, I have very strong thoughts.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
We've all been there, and how to deal with two
close friends who have turned on each other. A link
will be in the show notes, Bye bye. Shout out
to any Mum and me A subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Mom and Mia is the very best way to
do so. There's a link in the episode description

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Great Feminist Exhaustion & One Of Us Has No Charisma

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

The Great Feminist Exhaustion & One Of Us Has No Charisma

Dateline NBC