April 23, 2025 • 46 mins
What happens when a person becomes the brand? Influencer Remi Bader is facing backlash for a personal transformation—and her followers aren’t happy they weren’t part of the journey. We unpack the online pushback and ask: does she actually owe anyone an explanation?
Plus, Pope Francis passed away this week. What happens now? We take you inside the mysterious, centuries-old process of choosing the next Pope.
Also, with just 10 days until the Australian election, a major issue is being overlooked. In a week filled with devastating headlines about violence against women, we’re asking: what do we really expect from the leaders of our country?
And finally… Liz Hurley has gone public with a very unexpected new romance—and it’s giving a very specific energy. We’ve got thoughts. Lots of them.
Support independent women's media
Resources:
If you or someone you know is in need of support contact help is available:
1800RESPECT 1800 737 732
Lifeline 13 11 14
Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636
The End Bits:
Make a donation to RizeUp. RizeUp helps survivors of domestic violence rebuild their lives and break free from the cycle of violence.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Katy Perry, Gayle King & THAT Blue Origin Space Flight
- Listen: Another Little Treat: The Tyranny Of Looking Like You Haven't Tried
- Listen: A Little Treat: This Special Live Show Recording Spilt 10 Years of Tea
- Listen: The Exact Science To Keep You Enjoying Your Job
- Listen: A Very 2025 Diss Track. No Notes.
- Listen: Clare Stephens - We Have Questions
- Listen: A Reality TV Showdown & Coachella's Three Levels Of Cool
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place.
What to read:
- Thi Kim Tran suffered an unthinkable crime. We finally know why.
- Three women dead in 24 hours. Yet our potential leaders remain silent.
- From anti-climate science to 'pro-life': What every single minor party actually stands for
- A serious investigation into Liz Hurley's eclectic taste in men.
GET IN TOUCH:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. I would never like
I would never. I would never. You've never stopped as
a famous person, have I ever?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Oh, yes, Adam Goods. I did. Adam Goods. I made
him post for a picture with my child once. That's true.
I didn't. But I think you read the room. You
work it out. Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out loud.
It's what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the
twenty third of April. I'm Holly Wayne, right, and I've
got my oh g's with me today.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, I'm mea Friedman and I'm putting the ass back
into podcasting.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Podcast When you say that, I'm Jesse Stevens and I
am also back.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Okay. On today's show, where does a person end in
a brand? Begin? Remy Beata, Robbie Williams and what celebrities
oh their followers? So ten days from an election and
in the middle of an onslaught of devastating headlines about
violence against women, what do we expect from our leaders?
And there's a new celebrity couple that no one had
(01:21):
on their Bingo card for twenty twenty five. What do
Liz and Billy tell us about having a type? But first,
in case you missed it, I doubt you missed it,
but possibly you did. The Pope died on Monday. Pope
Francis had been the head of the Catholic Church for
eleven years and his death is probably one of the
few things that can stop the media. It was the
(01:42):
only story for good twenty four hours. In fact, Jesse,
you were on the project that night. Did everything get
thrown out?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yes, we were all prepared for the show. We were
doing a run through, and we got news in our
ears that he died about fifteen minutes before we went live.
And it was fascinating from the perspective of sitting on
a news desk and having someone in your ear the
whole time, and trying to cross and get real time information,
and watching the way that Rome reacted because there was
a camera just outside the Vatican, and so watching the
(02:09):
people go and mourn and pay their respects because he'd
just been on Sunday, he had just addressed people, they'd
actually seen him on Friday, he'd seen JD Vans.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Lucky enough to meet the Vice president.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Of the USA, who he had been very critical of.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Anyway, with apologies to theologian scholars everywhere, I I'm going
to offer you a quick explainer of what happens next,
what's happening right now now. The reason that I'm the
chosen one for this is not because I'm the Catholic one,
that's Jesse, but because I'm the only one who's watched conclave.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
And every table, every family, every group of people that
have been sitting around. It has taken ten seconds for
someone to go, well, I did see conclicts. And then
they tell you exactly what's going.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
To happen next. And that's the Oscar nominated movie about
this process, and it's actually very very good. But then
it happening now, it's happening right now, right now, like
about to happen, or happening right now. They're gathering, they're
going in. So what happens is the news of the
popes passing all the big wigs or in this case
big as cardinals were because fled to Rome from all
over the world. Right because there are big you know,
(03:14):
Catholic congregations obviously all over the world.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So they probably had a bag packed left at the door.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yea, because obviously, although Pope Francis, as you said, seemed
okay in the last few days, his health issues have
been going on for a while, so they would have
been kind of prepared. They all go to the Vatican,
and some of them are already there, of course, to
get sequestered like a jewelry. So they go into lockdown.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Right, there's an Aussie who's going, who's like in his
mid forties or something.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, so there's one hundred and thirty five cardinals who go,
who are actually allowed to vote because you can't vote
if you're over eighty.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Any women, No, of course not.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
There are nuns there, just asking if you watch conclave,
you know there are nuns there because they're bringing them
their dinners and stuff. Anywhere they arrive at the Vatican,
they get sequested like a jury, locked away, no phones,
no TVs, no newspapers until they can all agree on
who's getting the job. They'll sleep and eat in a hostel,
like a little hostel that's purpose built for this. And
presumably they would all like to get back to their
(04:07):
Snapchat as soon as possible. So let's make this efficient right.
So it's like survivor. It's very much so like survival
because every day, twice a day, they vote right, and
you've got to get to a two thirds majority. So
they go in in the morning, they do their prayers,
they have their brecky, then they sit down and they
write on a piece of paper, I want Bob to win.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Is it like a jury in that you then have
to deliberate and then I have to convince you yes.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So what happens is they vote right. It goes to
the front of the you know, the big fancy room,
and someone reads them out and there's like, oh I
haven't majority, Oh damn. Then they go away and that's
when the hustling starts.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Right, So all the lobbying, all the soft diplomacy, very.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Much like those glorious years when we got a new
prime minister every five minutes. This is politics, and whoever
comes up on top will be the one who could
whip the numbers. So they'll be a conservative faction, they'll
be a progressive faction. There'll be factions split along geographic lines,
and there'll be a faction that was kind of massaged
by Pope Francis because you do get to stack the
(05:10):
voting cardinals a little bit. As a pope, you get
to choose a few because there have to be some
perks to being the pope, right, So all these cardinals
are then going away and whispering corners and saying, well,
obviously Billy only got three votes, so he might be out.
But where do Billy's votes go? You know? And the
cardinals write their names down, They go to the front.
They put it in a pot that looks just like
the cauldron on Survivor Mia. Sorry if I'm blinding anyone
(05:32):
with jargon here, and then they get burned and they
put some chemicals in the fire and if it comes
up black, as we know, no result.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So the people outside who've gathered, so the chimney goes
black smoke, it means we know there's been a vote.
They're very secret these votes. They actually sweep the whole
building for bugs, listening devices, anything, so you'll never know who.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Got How do you change the color of the smoke.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
There's some chemicals that you's like, oh, I see sprinkle
into the fire. And then when somebody reaches the two
thirds majority, the smoke goes white and we know, we've
got a new post.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Who's so lucky that you did your PhD on?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But who's the host, Like, who's one of the big bosses?
Like there are lots of bosses who are.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
The front runners.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So the leaderboard maya looks a bit like this.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
The Pope.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Louis Antonio Tagli is three to one odds because you
can do sports betting on bet doesn't seem very heady.
Is potentially the first Asian pope. He is strong on
social justice issues and he's sixty seven. You have to
basically be between the ages of sixty and eighty to
be so sixty seven is relatively young. Petrio Poroline four
(06:41):
to one odds. He's Italian. He's seen as a bit
of a centrist and a bit of a compromise candidate
between the progressives and the conservatives. And then there's Peter
Erdou six to one. He is a conservative voice from
Hungary seventy two, pushing for a return tradition. And then
we've got Mateo Marizupi, sixty nine year old Italian and
(07:04):
he is really into humanitarian work and advocacy for migrants.
So you've got these eyes or lobbying their followers to
try and get to be pope.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
As an Irish Catholic, we obviously, you know, really care
about who's going to be the pope and also love
a bet. So I would say my money is on
Louis who that's who I want?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Which one?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
He is potentially the first Asian pope because Pope Francis
was the first Pope who wasn't European.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
He was South American exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I just feel like that could be a really
cool change in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
The other thing I learned watching Conclave is you get
to choose your name when you're pope. So he would
not be Pope Louis. He'd choose a same he would be. Yeah,
he could be whoever he wanted to.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
You know, I have a saints name. As a Catholic,
we choose a saints name. No, I already have one,
it's part of my name.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I am jesse An Jemma Stevens, and I chose Saint
Jemma because she suffered the stigmata lack, the thing where
it's like you're.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
On the ross, suffering, suffering, suffering. Yeah, I hope you
all feel enlightened and please direct your complaints to Ruth's Divine.
She is the executive when we were out loud, and
she does not watch Conclave, but she's sort of catholic.
She makes up.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You might have seen some pushback online about a woman
called Remy Beta. She's a thirty year old plus size
influencer who's recently lost a large amount of weight. Now,
her story starts in twenty twenty. Actually, when she started
recreating celebrity outfits. She was at that time about her
size twenty and these were such great videos because she'd
(08:38):
take paparazzi photos of a celebrity that was much smaller
than her, and she would recreate an outfit for a
woman her size. And then she started filming what she
called realistic shopping hall tryons, where she would go to
Zara or somewhere like that and she would show what
clothes really look like on a larger body, and the
(09:00):
tone of the videos were humorous. She's really great content creator,
a little bit like Celeste Barber. She sort of took
the piss out of the fashion industry, but also took
the piss out of herself by trying on things that
were really not designed for her. Curves and she built
millions of followers like that, and as her audience grew,
she was invited to influence her events and she got
(09:21):
sponsorship deals with brands. But she never made any secret
of the fact that she wasn't happy with her body,
and she posted a video in September twenty twenty three
where she said she's getting so much body shaming commentary
that she wouldn't be sharing any information about her weight
going forward. So it wasn't an easy story of her
(09:42):
being a body positive plus size influencer, And many people
have commented that those two things can both be true.
That you want to call the fashion industry to account
and society to account, but because of everything that's been
internalized and the reaction that you get in the world,
you also have very complex feelings about your own body. Anyway,
in twenty twenty four, she quietly but very noticeably began
(10:05):
to lose a lot of weight, and she blocked anyone
that commented on it and didn't speak about it publicly
until a couple of weeks ago, when she gave an
interview to Chloe kadash In on her podcast and she
admitted to having weight loss surgery here's some of what
Remy said.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
There was a brand a new surgery, a newer surgery,
which is what I did and what everyone online. Of course,
at this point everyone's like, Okay, well she did one
of the shots, or she did the sleeve or something like.
No one guessed this because it's not a known thing.
Now I feel like I've had this pause on myself
of like, I don't know what to post. I don't
know what to say. I don't know what to do
(10:40):
until this is out there. And I always knew that
I would put not just the relationship stuff, the surgery,
that everything I knew would be put out there. I
didn't know that it would affect me this much by
not talking about it. And I think it's just the
person I am, Like I still need to be somewhat
of an open person. That's how I am, and I
don't want to feel like I'm living and walking on eggshells.
And I do have a lot to say and I
do have a lot to share while still keeping those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So what do people are actually angry about what they
say they're angry. I mean, different people are angry about
different things. But the main part of the criticism and
there's been big backlash against her. They say it's not
because she lost the weight, but because she wasn't transparent
and didn't tell them what was happening all along the way.
Rachel Richards writes a newsletter called highly Flammable, which is great,
and she wrote about it this week, and she pointed
(11:25):
out that audiences don't see content creators as people. They
view them as brands, and they think of themselves as
a shareholder in that brand, which is kind of chilling.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So what you mean in this context then, is that,
so Remy Beata was a brand. She had all these
followers who probably a large proportion of them maybe were
plus size, and found her inspirational and instructional and all
those things. And now she's changed her product, as it were,
and they feel like she has somehow tricked them.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yes, so they claim that it's not the fact that
she's even changed the product, but that she didn't disclose
when she had the surgery and didn't take them on
the journey all the way along. And we've talked about
parasocial relationships before and how they can be problematic because
you feel like you know somebody and then when that
person cuts off some of the information to you, you
(12:16):
can feel quite angry or quite betrayed. We saw it
happen with Heather Armstrong who was the og Mummy blogger,
and she posted about her family a lot and had
a blog called Deuce. And when she got divorced and
didn't tell her followers exactly why she was getting divorced
and sort of pulled back, they turned on her and
she never really recovered from that. She took her life
(12:39):
a few years ago, but she never really recovered. Her
brand never really recovered because it was this idea of
entitlement that we made you successful, Therefore you work for us,
almost like a local member, a politician who represents their constituents,
and they feel entitled to answers and information.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And it's like if they were a brand, if they
were a product, then they might want their money back, right, yeah,
But these people have often never exchanged any money, so
what they want back is an interesting gay.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I want back, I want my investment, I.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Want my energy, my admiration, I want an apology. I
think that you owe me something. Because this idea of
people as brands is new, and Naomi Klein has written
about this at length and It's fascinating what she says,
because the second a person becomes a brand, it means
that they can no longer evolve. There is no opportunity
(13:32):
for change. A brand is a promise. A brand is
like even think Coca Cola. People are not Coca Cola.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
We are not like it when they change their formula.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Well, exactly right, And it's like Coca cola is a thing,
it's not a human being. Probably, what I'd say is
that to give a little bit more agency to the
influencer of all of this, influencers do profit off the
brand model. The idea that it's just the Internet turning
you into a brand isn't true. We're turning ourselves into brands. Yeah,
(14:03):
the same way, and we are making money off it.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And you almost have to be a brand to survive
in this creator economy and this attention economy, certainly to
build a following.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So yeah, she had some choices there about how to
handle what she was doing. Because if she had built
a substantial brand around the fact that her body looked
a certain way and she was monetizing it, and she'd
made a whatever fortune for herself.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Which.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But whatever, right, So she's created something and then she
is changing that problem. She had some choices. She could
have gone, I'm going offline for six months or a year,
you're not going to see me. Or she could have gone,
I'm taking you with me. None of those things are owed.
Or she go and do something else, you know, go
and do something else. Entirely, your only career options in
(14:50):
the world are not being an influencer.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But the thing is is, although I don't have any
truck with the idea of people being mad with her
for making a very personal decision to change her body,
I also don't necessarily think that it's fair for her
to be annoyed with people for being irritated by her
that their deal they've made with her is now changed.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I don't think she's annoyed. She said, I had no
idea what this operation would be like and the recovery
from it mentally, emotionally, physically, And she said, I'm so
upside down about it all, like I'm in a body,
a different body, I'm in the world. I'm so processing
it still. I didn't know what to even say.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
If you are looking at someone else's body, someone else's behavior,
someone else's attitude to their own body, to give you
confidence that's going to break your heart, like in the
same way that investing in a brand or believing that
someone is a brand that like they're going to let
you down. Everyone's gonna let you down because they are
going to change. And I read a comment that was like,
(15:54):
it's almost akin to your favorite TV show changing genres.
And if they were to do that, if Succession were
to come out and be a horror show.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
When Beyonce does a country album, yeah, exactly, I don't
want countries from Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, and the audience gets to choose that. I think
that the difference is the level of vitriol and the demand.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I think the entitlement's interesting too, because she was saying,
I don't know what I think about it. I'm not
ready to unpack this in real time, and.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yet she says that on a podcast with Chloe Kardashian,
So come on, I'm a little bit cynical about it,
Like she literally could live a private life. I'm not
criticizing this woman, I know. So this isn't all or
nothing for me. I literally had never heard her name
to it, So I'm not just based on purely what
you've told me. I have all the sympathy in the
world for her to do whatever she wants to do.
(16:41):
But I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be like, oh,
I thought you were one thing and now or another,
and then for the person at the center of that
to be like, this is so unfairs. She could go
do something else.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't think she's saying it's so unfair.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
She might not be saying sorry, she might not be
saying that, But I mean, as a concept, you can't
control everybody else's reaction.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Of course not, but I think that this is a
whole new world, Like she didn't mean to become an influencer.
Like influencers are a fairly new profession, and I guess
in some ways their role models. And we experience this
as content creators as well. Sometimes you put something out,
you create content and put it out in the world,
and dealing with everybody else's reaction to what you've put
out in the world is a whole other thing.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Because a brand, Naomi client says, being a brand means
to create a self that is at a distance from ourself,
a self to be consumed by others. A brand is
not what you are. A brand is how others see you.
So she was being seen as something that she wasn't
even It's like how we see people has way more
to do with us and what we're projecting.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's also about the aspiration though, right, because being famous
on the internet is a modern aspiration and what you
see over and over again, and this story seems to
be another version of this, and we've all experienced this
in different ways. But what you see happening over and
over again is somebody will come out, you know, rise
to great follower numbers on whatever platform they're on, and
(18:01):
everybody's excited about them because they're so fresh and revealing
and authentic and all those things. Then everybody discovers the
cost of that, which is enormous.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Americans call back.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
You build an audience by engaging with your audience, right,
That's how you do it, literally, And then suddenly that engagement,
you realize that's a full time job. It is exhausting
taking on other people's opinions all the time, and you
have to put up with people saying awful shit to you.
Women who live in bigger bodies online cops so much abuse,
even if they might be profiting from it. In Averted commerce.
(18:31):
So you see over and over again that people it happens,
and then people go, I can't do this anymore, and
they get off and there's a new.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Way, speaking of the cost. Did you see Robbie Williams's
post on Instagram this week?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I thought it was so.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Eloquence and insightful, and it was about having members of
the public ask for selfies and how he grapples with
whether or not it's his duty. So he wrote, there's
a kind of unspoken law as a celebrity, you should
be accessible twenty four to seven. Greet all strangers like
you're the mayor of the best town anyone's ever visited.
Make sure their wishes are met, whatever they are. Otherwise
(19:04):
you're a And then he used the C word and
he said that the assumption is that these people are
what built you like and then for you to get
over want them away. Well, he says, not necessarily, because
a lot of the people asking for a photo couldn't
name one of his albums. And really he's the Big
Ben is how he says it, like you just want
to come and get a photo with a landmark.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But I'm not the Big Ben.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I'm a human being who there is a cost.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'm a small Robbie.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, and like it's so true. It's like every time
someone comes up and do we have a number. I've
been in the situation where I've seen a famous person
walk past and I've gone, oh, do.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I ask for selfie?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I'm gonna regret no, So do what I did. When
I saw Robbie Williams at the Actor Awards. I got
out my phone and I sawreptitiously he was in a
public place, but I sareptitiously filmed him walking paste that's
and sent it to all my.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Friends because how often should that happen in a single day? Right,
like Robbie's walking through his life?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Does he carpet?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
That's different? That's different. I'm talking about I'm at my
local Westfield and someone walks past me, right, and I go, oh,
I really like admire that person. That person hearing that
I admire them not interesting for them a selfie? Like
which is the new autograph? Do you ask for it?
But how much does that person owe us to constantly engage?
Constantly be Robbie Williams? Because I was thinking about it
(20:22):
in terms of the service industry. Right when I walk
into a shop. That person is polite to me and
puts on a smile even when they're not feeling it.
But that person then clocks off. They then get to
go home, and they get to go to Woollies with
their head down.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
He gets to go back to his mansion that all
the fan's paid for.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
No, but he's on the phone, he talked about it.
He's on the phone to his mother who's got dementia,
and he's talking to his wife about his dad who's
got Parkinson's. And we have the right in our minds
as a public to stop him at any moment and
demand an interaction.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I don't. I would never, Like I would never.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I would.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Now, you've never stopped this famous person. Have I ever?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But I I don't know. Oh yes, Adam Goods, I did,
Adam Woods, I've made him post for a picture with
my child once. That's true.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
But I think you read the room, you work it out.
I would never if Robbie Williams was on my plane,
I would have a conniption, because you know, he's very
famous to me being an English person. But I wouldn't
bother him. No, I would absolutely not bother him. But
and I know I sound like a terrible person. I
do a little bit think it's the price of fame.
I do like I think for movie star and it's
(21:31):
very different. Now we were just about influences, and I
think that's a bit different somehow, but for movie stars
and musicians. And maybe it's because I used to have
a trashy job in Celebrity Max. But they literally did
build their mansions with your money. They literally did the
tickets that you paid for to see the thing. And
I know there was an exchange there. They gave you
a thing, but disrespecting your fans is not cool.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
The other problem with selfies, though, is it's different to
an autograph or even just coming to say hello, because
you don't know what that person else posts on their
social You don't actually know who that person is. And
then you've they've got a selfie with your face and
you're all over their feed next to some very question
other things. So you know, if you are famous or
(22:12):
an influencer on your faces, your brand, you do have
to be careful.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
In a moment with an election ten days away, we
need to talk about the elephant in the room, a
national crisis overlooked in both election campaigns, the silence on
gender based violence this election is dangerous, and the crisis
costing billions that has barely registered. They are a taste
(22:38):
of some headlines published over the last few weeks in
regards to what many are calling Australia's political blind spot.
T Kim Tran, a forty five year old woman, had
plans this weekend to attend the Easter Show with her
two sons, but on Thursday evening, masked men stormed her home.
They kidnapped her, they assaulted her son, They dragged her
(22:59):
into a vehicle and then they set that vehicle alight.
The week before, forty five year old Luise Hunt, a
domestic violence advocate, died after her family home went up
in flames. Her husband has been charged. Claire Austin, thirty eight,
died after attempting to run through a glass door to
flee an alleged domestic violence incident. These are just some
(23:19):
of the Australian women who have died this month. Four
are understood to have died just last week. Yet in
the first two leaders' debates, there was not a question
about gender based violence. Now, in the fourth week of
a five week campaign, labour has released its Commitment to
Women announcement, so it's spoken about things like tackling financial abuse,
(23:39):
closing loopholes in tax and social security systems, and boosting
responses to perpetrators. The coalition wants to toughen bail laws,
create new offenses for technology facilitated abuse, and invest in
family support services. Holly, do you understand why Australian women
are feeling angry at the moment?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yes, absolutely, I do. We had a conversation which we
will continue to have about whether or not it was
important for our and Dutton and other senior politicians to
say something acknowledge this even though, as you've just outlined,
their policies are working in this sector.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The funding for this sector is, depending on where you sit,
is either inadequate or not working. But it's a very
complicated issue. But the reason that women would like to
see Dutton and alban easy talk about it, and I
am one of those women I would like that is
because we know that they individually cannot fix this right.
(24:43):
But the scale of this problem is so enormous. The
names that you've just read out in those little bits
of their stories which are so upsetting, are just the
tiny tip of the iceberg. Right, Australian police get a
call about domestic violence every two minutes, every single day.
They're the people who actually pick up the phone call.
Every woman listening to this will have been affected in
(25:04):
some way by this issue. Whenever we talk about it
on this show, we get overwhelmed by comment about it.
We know because we've poled Mom and MEA's audience about
what their top issues are in the election, and this
comes in in the top four. And the thing is is,
although there are many segments to this issue. There's prevention
which is very complicated and contentious but needs to be addressed,
(25:25):
which is includes things like the cultural issues that we
often talk about, drugs and alcohol, role modeling. There's legal
which you are talking about in the Some of the
campaign promises about what to do about offenders, because women
get so outraged by hearing that very often offenders have
had multiple offenses before, or they've breached avio's and it's
the very vex problem of rehabilitation. And then there's also
(25:48):
helping the women who are suffering this. So it's a
very complicated issue and we know that Alban easy standing
up and talking about and wearing a black tie isn't
going to fix it, but I want to see their
acknowledge what is being lost every day. I have heard
them all talk multiple multiple times about their plans for
cost of living, for fuel excise, for environmental issues, for
(26:11):
health and education, and all those things are crucially important.
They have told me their positions on that one hundred
times over and over and over in this campaign. It
isn't enough to just once mention this issue. And I
wrote ages ago, when the Prime Minister was Scott Morrison,
that I wanted to see him are in a black
tie in Parliament and reading out these names. And I
still feel wow.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I think what you talk about whole is two things.
One is the symbolism and the acknowledgment and saying like
it is a complicated thing to fix. Who knows if
it can be fixed or not. But I see you,
I see your fear, I see your despair, I see
your heartbreak, and I see your fear. It's hard not
(26:53):
to feel despair because like, what can they do? Like
there are already laws that say you can't kill women,
right or you can't kill men. It's not like we
don't have laws. But I keep thinking about what Annabel
Krab famously said many years ago on this issue, which is,
if more people had been taken by sharks in the
last four weeks, we would be draining the oceans. And
(27:16):
yet nobody seems to be able to even acknowledge. What
I've noticed is that men seem to feel that if
they're not actually doing it, it's kind of got nothing
to do with them.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I feel like every time we ask, and we've had
this conversation often on the show and in different places
where we say we want to hear men talk about it,
we get pushed back. Every time, it gets pushed back
onto our lapse of them saying, well, I'm not doing it,
It's not my problem. What do you want me to do?
What I want you to do is acknowledge the scale
of this, because what I see when I look around
(27:50):
the people who are counting dead women in inverted commas
are women. The media organizations who are doing things with
campaigns like Mamma Mia does her name was to humanize
tell the stories behind these statistics and these names that
we read about the paper. A very often female lad
women are pushing this issue. Women talk about this issue,
female politicians read out the names of domestic violence victims
(28:12):
in Parliament and we just want them to do and acknowledge.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
How to see this is, I suppose it's not quite
how I see it, and I've been interrogating why I've
struggled with some of this commentary and a demand for
acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and I actually really really understand it.
But I suppose that I struggle with the difference between
symbolism and lip service and actually practically helping and addressing
(28:39):
the issue, right because a lot of people go, why
don't you say something? What do you want them to say? Like,
obviously it is such an enormous tragedy that can't be
done justice by a few words by Anthony Abenezy. But
let's remember that last year he announced the National Plan
to end Violence against Women and Children four point seven
(28:59):
billion dollars. Right, These politicians, both sides Scott Morrison, had
incredible announcements and resources that were announced to support this issue,
So it's not true to say that they're not working
towards a solution. I feel as though with this issue,
sometimes advocates and campaigners who do tireless, tireless work want
(29:21):
to tell one story. They want to tell one story,
and sometimes something comes out in the news and we
don't even have the details yet, and there is a
sense this is the wrong word, but there is a
sense of almost not from them necessarily, but maybe I
see it from tabloid media of Glee that like, and
here's another way to tell exactly the same story. And
(29:43):
I see a flesh and blood human being who was
a mum and a sister and had these critical relationships
and had such a contribution to the community, and I
see her reduced to a political issue or whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And literally a number and a number exactly right.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
It's just another number, another number, another number, And something
about that is starting to feel dehumanizing to me. And
when I go through these stories on an individual basis,
they are not all the same story. There are similarities,
and there are you know, absolutely learnings. And I've heard
Dutton and I've heard our ben Easy talk about them
(30:22):
from bail to AVOs that are ignored mental health to
mental health, to alcohol to drug use. But Kim Tran,
that was a different story. That was a different story
to some of the others. There are also many where
legally we don't have the details yet, and I see
people fill those details in in a way I think
(30:44):
is really clumsy and unhelpful. And then we splash the
details of some of these stories, and I know I
did it in the introduction, like I worry. I worry
that putting all of these women in the same bucket
reduces them to one thing when we can't express enough
how complex this issue is. For example, the story of
(31:05):
Kim Tran is a totally different story to some of the.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Others, but it has something very important in common with
the others, which is that she lost her lives at
the hands of men because they thought she didn't matter.
And that's the thing that binds us together on this
is You're right that these stories are all very complicated,
and that's why I want to hear them. That's why
I want to hear them talked about, because they do
all have one very common thread, which is that the
lives of women don't seem to matter as much as
(31:31):
the lives of men do very very often. And I
totally get your point. I know they're doing a lot,
you know, I know that domestic violence funding, I know
there are so many experts who work in all those
areas that I've discussed before about prevention, about sentencing, about rehabilitation,
about victim support who have lived experience, and a lot
of education about what to do. And I believe our
(31:53):
leaders are listening to them, of course I do. But
there's also just something so important, as I said about
all those other issues that seem to matter so much,
about talking about it and talking about it and recognizing
it and recognizing it and talking about the complexity of this.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, because I think as well that a lot of
people go enough we want our politicians to talk about this,
and I like, what do we want them to say?
Because some of the solutions are really really complicated. For example,
there was a representative from the Australian Psychological Society on
ABC Radio Sydney just last month who said, we've really
got to talk about alcohol, So let's talk about alcohol. Yeah, exactly,
(32:29):
and that being a risk factor I think it was
involved in something like thirty four percent of intimate partner violence.
Do we want to have a serious national conversation about
what we do about that during election?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
But one of the reasons for that, this is why
this is not complicated issue? Well it's not. But also
who profits from all the alcohol that's drunk in Australia.
It's an enormous business. Who's selling the beer and the
booze and the wine. And like, you're not wrong that
it's complicated. But I think that when people say, we
want to hear you talk about it, and I know
what you hear that you hear lip service bullshit? You
(33:01):
want action. But I also don't want it to only
be an issue you know when it suits you know
what I mean. It's an issue that most women are
living with every day in some way through a friend,
a family member, their own experience, and it should feel
that way to us.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And I think don't underestimate the power of lip service
and the symbolism of it. Like when someone loses a
loved one, we say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Can it bring that person back? Can it fix it?
Can it do anything? But it's just a human acknowledgment
that says, I see you, I empathize with you, And
(33:38):
I feel that sometimes when you're having conversations with men,
good men, men who would never do this, they just
don't get it. They just don't see it as an
issue for them because they also feel helpless.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I don't blame them.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
For that, because what are they going to do?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Like it's so cultural and this is why it can
make you feel really good.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Lip service is one of the biggest criticisms politicians get
is that it's all lip servers and it's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
No but I mean, on its own, I agree with you.
On its own, it's not enough. But just because they
can't announce new policy every day, I agree with Holly.
They can still acknowledge every time a woman is killed.
They can get up and say, and.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
They can also tell us what they're doing, because as
you've just said, they're doing a lot. And as I say,
I've heard them tell me twenty five times what they're
doing about cost of living. What if you tell me
twenty five times about what you're doing about this?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
What if Sometimes, and this might be a really unpopular
thing to say, there is absolutely nothing they can do.
There are stories that come up where you look at
it and you go, this is a story about bail laws.
This is a really important story about bail laws. And
you do see politicians come out and say we're going
to make some changes. There are some stories you see
that are so revoltingly cruel and heinous and tragic and
(34:47):
are the worst of humanity, and you think, I actually
don't know what we expect.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Of course, not nobody is suggesting. I am certainly not
suggesting that a politician stop every murder that happens in Australia.
But the thing that we keep missing here, in my opinion,
is we focus on these worst of the worst stories
rather than on that phone that's ringing every three minutes.
Of course, there are systemic things that can and are
(35:13):
being done to stop that, but that's where this starts.
It is so rare that a domestic violence death came
from out of the blue. It is so rare. It
is usually the end of a story that started way back,
and intervention could have happened at a million points. Of course,
there is no guilt on the hands of these politicians
for these women's deaths, of course there isn't. But I
(35:35):
just think that women, as Mia said, I certainly feel
it like just frustrated that they don't recognize the scale
because the deaths are one thing. But the women who
are listening to this and who we know, who are
living in fear, who can't leave a relationship for financial
reasons or because of their children, who have been victims
in the past. Like all of those, women deserve the
(35:56):
respect and acknowledgment that they're living with something that men
do not live with. They have issues with violence too
that they live with, no question, but it's not the same.
They are not in the numbers that women are living
in homes with people who seek to harm them and
control them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
If you are feeling as we are, angry, despairing all
of the things, there is something that you can do.
Mom Mia is the proud supporter of Rise Up, which
is a domestic violence charity that helps women and children
relocate and set up new lives after escaping domestic violent situations.
We will put a link in the show notes if
you can give even a few dollars to support their work.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
And if this segment has brought up anything for you
or you know someone in need, there are resources in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
A set of Australian identical twins are going viral after
an interview is it you? It is not there and
I so there's a little bit of tension. They were
both speaking about their mum being carjacked and they were
captured speaking in near perfect unison Bridget and Paula Powers.
They were speaking to seven News Queensland on Tuesday. Here's
some of what they had to say.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
And one guy he was up there with our mom
and he he went up there and he was coming
back down the wards and he goes, run, he's got
a gun. And our hearts started a pond and I said,
well mom, with's mom and paul Mama's stuck up there
(37:46):
by apparently our brave mom.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
She goes, are you all right?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Because he had all blood in.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
His face, and he goes, I'll shoot you.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
She goes, hey, I'm here to hell a mum distrategy.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Well that sounds upsetting.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Firstly, what they witnessed so traumatic has been totally lost
in the coverage because they.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Were talking about something all around the world.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
This clip round the world, and what fascinated people the
most was how they seem to know exactly what the
other was going to say as the words fell out
of their mouth. And of course what began is people
going well, I would love to see a brain wave
study of what's going on, like how telepathic they are.
Of course, it became unnecessarily cruel with lots of name calling,
(38:28):
and my question is are.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We why what names did they get called?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Oh, just kind of making fun of them and suggesting
that they didn't have any friends and that they were
some kind of side show.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Also you could tell. But just listening to that, you
can just see it going around the world with the
Australian accents. Yes and yeah they talk like there's just
that there'll be figures of mockery like within second.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
And that's the thing is that now they're on lots
of different TV shows and they're being spoken to by
lots of well meaning journalists. But do you think we're
treating them as some kind of side show? And what
is it about identical twins that's so fun for people
when they behave like well because your magic, yes.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
And you're unusual. So this is really patronizing. But I
can just imagine I haven't seen them doing the breakfast
TV rounds or whatever today, but I can just imagine
that like being do it again, do it again? Talk
about something else, let's see if it can happen. And
they are literally being treated like a freak show in
oldie worldie circus times. I understand the fascination because it's
(39:26):
really strange, right, like, if this isn't your world, it's
really strange. How do they know? But they are definitely
being treated like a freak Do you think I also?
Can you and Claire do this? And would you do
it for us?
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I reckon that main Claire, or like our brothers, if
we were sitting there, we could absolutely finish each other
sentences like that. There is just something about and I
don't think it's magic.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
I think you can do it with anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That you know, Well, yeah you do. It's proximity.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
They'd witness the same thing, their brains would be working
in somewhat the same way, and they.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Were also telling a story that were recounting a set
of fact that they both witnessed in the same way.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Then when they were later interview, even when they're asked
about anything, they can But what I think twins do
is complicate our understanding of selfhood, of identity and independence.
I think we all think we're special and that we
are these like closed off we are a boundaried person,
and even from like mythology, people have never known what
(40:29):
to do with twins because they're just like, are you
two halves of a whole? Or are you opposites or
are you the same?
Speaker 1 (40:37):
So you think it's like it's fascinating because it's a
little bit threatening.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yes, it's what it's saying is there could be two
of you for horror movies or there's so many books
written about it. The idea that it's like cloning or
like a doppel ganger. That's terrifying for people because it's
like you're actually not that special, Like if someone else
had grown up alongside you, there could be another U,
or another U or another U. I think that's what
throws us.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Do people ask you and Claire to like do tricks?
Or did they when you were younger?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Not as much.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
A lot of you just get to kindergarten and someone
punches you in the arm and says, can she feel it?
It's like no, but I could.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Thanks a lot for that, you know what. I to
zoom in on with breathless excitement on Sunday. The image
of Liz Hurley, who is obviously an iconic generation next
celebrity in pigtails and checked flannel kissing Billy ray Ciris
of Achy Breaky Heart and being the dad of Miley
Fame up against a fence while he was wearing bunny eares.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Okay, Emelia Lester sent me this picture and I just
glanced at it quickly, and I thought it was Liz
Hurley's son Damien.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Kissing her because he has a long issue, because he.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Has the same long brunette hair. They've quite affectionate and
they look very similar. We've talked before he directed her
in a very sexy movie.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
That he really Cyrus does not look like Damien.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
What was a kind of a profile and I just
glanced at it quickly on my phone. I didn't quite
understand the magnitude of what she was sending.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Well, was that on your bingo cart, Billie?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
No, it wasn't. And the thing is that was glorious
about this is it was not a grobby paparazzi shot.
This was their hard launch. He is her new boyfriend,
and like her other high profile boyfriends, he's quite a
bold choice, it would seem. Apparently they met in twenty
twenty two on the set of that Oscar nominated Netflix
special Christmas in Paradise, And she hasn't had a public
(42:19):
relationship actually since her engagement to Shane Warn that ended
in twenty thirteen, which more than ten years ago, and
she before that had had quite high profile partners Grant
back in the day, and of course the Vasacei dress
that launched both of their careers. Really, she had a child,
Damien's dad, with Steve Bing, who was this big money guy,
and then she married Aaron Mayer, and then she was
(42:42):
with Shane and they were iconic and exceptionally public, and
they broke up in twenty thirteen, but they stayed close,
and they stayed close right up to his death. But
now this is the first time she has hard launched
since then. Do we think she has a type or not?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
She has a type?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Absolutely, what's the type? They all seem very different.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
One glance at Liz Hurley's dating history and I went,
she dates a hot mess, she has a heart mess.
She goes a bad boy who I can save. We've
all been there. Liz takes one to see one. But
I just went, there is something about women who sometimes
like the rebellion of like a Hugh Grant, a Shane, Well,
(43:23):
I see, I totally see like a naughty boy, like
a naughty boy, a bad boy. And interestingly, men never
want a hot mess woman. They can't be bothered fixing them,
whereas a woman is like maybe I.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Can see the potential.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I can see. She was with Hugh Grant when he
was arrested with the sex worker in LA that became
one of the biggest scandals of the nineties. And they
stay out together right like because those who have been
together forever, they are also still close. They are still
he's I think, godfather to her son. They're like, she's
obviously a very understanding woman.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
She is, And I think that these men would be
great fun. I think they'd be terrible boyfriends, like Shane Warner.
Icon Icon Billy.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Ray is just coming off a very fast divorce. Yes,
he's reading about the era and I thought that he'd
married a woman called fire Hose. But her name is
fire Arise.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
She's Australia, is she?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yes, she seems very young and they were married very
briefly one month. The divorce is fairly acrimonious.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Apparently something about fraud.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Okay, he's pinged into the arms of Liz Hurley, who
I also read that his ex wife Tish suspected him
of having an affair with when they were making the
movie together. I missed that movie too.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Do you think that? And I know that it's reductive
to look at celebrities just through who they're dating, but hey, yeah,
that's what we're here for today. Do you think that
everybody does have a type? Taylor swifts very famous list
of boyfriends, most of whom are famous, from Harry Styles
to Tom Hillston to Joel and to Maddy Healy, Travis Kelsey.
(44:59):
What's the type there? What's the common denomenala?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
She has heras, she has heras because I think that
she might have had a type when she was in
the Harry Styles moment, Like I probably even think that
there are you Harry Styles esque one.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
And she likes a bit of a tortured artist. She
likes English guys, English guy. She's done an English Joe.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
One eight pivot with Travis. Yes, so far, because I
think dating outside your type is the hack, is the
best life hack.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Liz hasn't done country in Western before, so maybe here
we are. And on that note, I think we're done.
He is done here.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
That is all we have time for today. Out louders,
I hope you've enjoyed this rollercoaster of a show. We
want to thank you for being here. And if I haven't
seen putting it together, we're going to be back in
your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
If you're looking for something else to listen to, well,
Maya and I got back from being away and we
went just we need to sit in a room and
talk about Blue Origin for three hours because we have thoughts,
we have feelings, astronauts, we have concerns. We had to
talk about the astronauts. There was so much more to say.
We unpacked some of the criticism and whether or not
(46:09):
we would call it feminism spoiler we wouldn't. A link,
as always will be in the show notes. Bye.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. I would never like
I would never. I would never. You've never stopped as
a famous person, have I ever?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Oh, yes, Adam Goods. I did. Adam Goods. I made
him post for a picture with my child once. That's true.
I didn't. But I think you read the room. You
work it out. Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out loud.
It's what women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the
twenty third of April. I'm Holly Wayne, right, and I've
got my oh g's with me today.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, I'm mea Friedman and I'm putting the ass back
into podcasting.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Podcast When you say that, I'm Jesse Stevens and I
am also back.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Okay. On today's show, where does a person end in
a brand? Begin? Remy Beata, Robbie Williams and what celebrities
oh their followers? So ten days from an election and
in the middle of an onslaught of devastating headlines about
violence against women, what do we expect from our leaders?
And there's a new celebrity couple that no one had
(01:21):
on their Bingo card for twenty twenty five. What do
Liz and Billy tell us about having a type? But first,
in case you missed it, I doubt you missed it,
but possibly you did. The Pope died on Monday. Pope
Francis had been the head of the Catholic Church for
eleven years and his death is probably one of the
few things that can stop the media. It was the
(01:42):
only story for good twenty four hours. In fact, Jesse,
you were on the project that night. Did everything get
thrown out?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yes, we were all prepared for the show. We were
doing a run through, and we got news in our
ears that he died about fifteen minutes before we went live.
And it was fascinating from the perspective of sitting on
a news desk and having someone in your ear the
whole time, and trying to cross and get real time information,
and watching the way that Rome reacted because there was
a camera just outside the Vatican, and so watching the
(02:09):
people go and mourn and pay their respects because he'd
just been on Sunday, he had just addressed people, they'd
actually seen him on Friday, he'd seen JD Vans.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Lucky enough to meet the Vice president.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Of the USA, who he had been very critical of.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Anyway, with apologies to theologian scholars everywhere, I I'm going
to offer you a quick explainer of what happens next,
what's happening right now now. The reason that I'm the
chosen one for this is not because I'm the Catholic one,
that's Jesse, but because I'm the only one who's watched conclave.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
And every table, every family, every group of people that
have been sitting around. It has taken ten seconds for
someone to go, well, I did see conclicts. And then
they tell you exactly what's going.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
To happen next. And that's the Oscar nominated movie about
this process, and it's actually very very good. But then
it happening now, it's happening right now, right now, like
about to happen, or happening right now. They're gathering, they're
going in. So what happens is the news of the
popes passing all the big wigs or in this case
big as cardinals were because fled to Rome from all
over the world. Right because there are big you know,
(03:14):
Catholic congregations obviously all over the world.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So they probably had a bag packed left at the door.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yea, because obviously, although Pope Francis, as you said, seemed
okay in the last few days, his health issues have
been going on for a while, so they would have
been kind of prepared. They all go to the Vatican,
and some of them are already there, of course, to
get sequestered like a jewelry. So they go into lockdown.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Right, there's an Aussie who's going, who's like in his
mid forties or something.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, so there's one hundred and thirty five cardinals who go,
who are actually allowed to vote because you can't vote
if you're over eighty.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Any women, No, of course not.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
There are nuns there, just asking if you watch conclave,
you know there are nuns there because they're bringing them
their dinners and stuff. Anywhere they arrive at the Vatican,
they get sequested like a jury, locked away, no phones,
no TVs, no newspapers until they can all agree on
who's getting the job. They'll sleep and eat in a hostel,
like a little hostel that's purpose built for this. And
presumably they would all like to get back to their
(04:07):
Snapchat as soon as possible. So let's make this efficient right.
So it's like survivor. It's very much so like survival
because every day, twice a day, they vote right, and
you've got to get to a two thirds majority. So
they go in in the morning, they do their prayers,
they have their brecky, then they sit down and they
write on a piece of paper, I want Bob to win.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Is it like a jury in that you then have
to deliberate and then I have to convince you yes.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So what happens is they vote right. It goes to
the front of the you know, the big fancy room,
and someone reads them out and there's like, oh I
haven't majority, Oh damn. Then they go away and that's
when the hustling starts.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Right, So all the lobbying, all the soft diplomacy, very.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Much like those glorious years when we got a new
prime minister every five minutes. This is politics, and whoever
comes up on top will be the one who could
whip the numbers. So they'll be a conservative faction, they'll
be a progressive faction. There'll be factions split along geographic lines,
and there'll be a faction that was kind of massaged
by Pope Francis because you do get to stack the
(05:10):
voting cardinals a little bit. As a pope, you get
to choose a few because there have to be some
perks to being the pope, right, So all these cardinals
are then going away and whispering corners and saying, well,
obviously Billy only got three votes, so he might be out.
But where do Billy's votes go? You know? And the
cardinals write their names down, They go to the front.
They put it in a pot that looks just like
the cauldron on Survivor Mia. Sorry if I'm blinding anyone
(05:32):
with jargon here, and then they get burned and they
put some chemicals in the fire and if it comes
up black, as we know, no result.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So the people outside who've gathered, so the chimney goes
black smoke, it means we know there's been a vote.
They're very secret these votes. They actually sweep the whole
building for bugs, listening devices, anything, so you'll never know who.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Got How do you change the color of the smoke.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
There's some chemicals that you's like, oh, I see sprinkle
into the fire. And then when somebody reaches the two
thirds majority, the smoke goes white and we know, we've
got a new post.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Who's so lucky that you did your PhD on?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But who's the host, Like, who's one of the big bosses?
Like there are lots of bosses who are.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
The front runners.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So the leaderboard maya looks a bit like this.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
The Pope.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Louis Antonio Tagli is three to one odds because you
can do sports betting on bet doesn't seem very heady.
Is potentially the first Asian pope. He is strong on
social justice issues and he's sixty seven. You have to
basically be between the ages of sixty and eighty to
be so sixty seven is relatively young. Petrio Poroline four
(06:41):
to one odds. He's Italian. He's seen as a bit
of a centrist and a bit of a compromise candidate
between the progressives and the conservatives. And then there's Peter
Erdou six to one. He is a conservative voice from
Hungary seventy two, pushing for a return tradition. And then
we've got Mateo Marizupi, sixty nine year old Italian and
(07:04):
he is really into humanitarian work and advocacy for migrants.
So you've got these eyes or lobbying their followers to
try and get to be pope.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
As an Irish Catholic, we obviously, you know, really care
about who's going to be the pope and also love
a bet. So I would say my money is on
Louis who that's who I want?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Which one?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
He is potentially the first Asian pope because Pope Francis
was the first Pope who wasn't European.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
He was South American exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I just feel like that could be a really
cool change in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
The other thing I learned watching Conclave is you get
to choose your name when you're pope. So he would
not be Pope Louis. He'd choose a same he would be. Yeah,
he could be whoever he wanted to.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
You know, I have a saints name. As a Catholic,
we choose a saints name. No, I already have one,
it's part of my name.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I am jesse An Jemma Stevens, and I chose Saint
Jemma because she suffered the stigmata lack, the thing where
it's like you're.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
On the ross, suffering, suffering, suffering. Yeah, I hope you
all feel enlightened and please direct your complaints to Ruth's Divine.
She is the executive when we were out loud, and
she does not watch Conclave, but she's sort of catholic.
She makes up.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
You might have seen some pushback online about a woman
called Remy Beta. She's a thirty year old plus size
influencer who's recently lost a large amount of weight. Now,
her story starts in twenty twenty. Actually, when she started
recreating celebrity outfits. She was at that time about her
size twenty and these were such great videos because she'd
(08:38):
take paparazzi photos of a celebrity that was much smaller
than her, and she would recreate an outfit for a
woman her size. And then she started filming what she
called realistic shopping hall tryons, where she would go to
Zara or somewhere like that and she would show what
clothes really look like on a larger body, and the
(09:00):
tone of the videos were humorous. She's really great content creator,
a little bit like Celeste Barber. She sort of took
the piss out of the fashion industry, but also took
the piss out of herself by trying on things that
were really not designed for her. Curves and she built
millions of followers like that, and as her audience grew,
she was invited to influence her events and she got
(09:21):
sponsorship deals with brands. But she never made any secret
of the fact that she wasn't happy with her body,
and she posted a video in September twenty twenty three
where she said she's getting so much body shaming commentary
that she wouldn't be sharing any information about her weight
going forward. So it wasn't an easy story of her
(09:42):
being a body positive plus size influencer, And many people
have commented that those two things can both be true.
That you want to call the fashion industry to account
and society to account, but because of everything that's been
internalized and the reaction that you get in the world,
you also have very complex feelings about your own body. Anyway,
in twenty twenty four, she quietly but very noticeably began
(10:05):
to lose a lot of weight, and she blocked anyone
that commented on it and didn't speak about it publicly
until a couple of weeks ago, when she gave an
interview to Chloe kadash In on her podcast and she
admitted to having weight loss surgery here's some of what
Remy said.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
There was a brand a new surgery, a newer surgery,
which is what I did and what everyone online. Of course,
at this point everyone's like, Okay, well she did one
of the shots, or she did the sleeve or something like.
No one guessed this because it's not a known thing.
Now I feel like I've had this pause on myself
of like, I don't know what to post. I don't
know what to say. I don't know what to do
(10:40):
until this is out there. And I always knew that
I would put not just the relationship stuff, the surgery,
that everything I knew would be put out there. I
didn't know that it would affect me this much by
not talking about it. And I think it's just the
person I am, Like I still need to be somewhat
of an open person. That's how I am, and I
don't want to feel like I'm living and walking on eggshells.
And I do have a lot to say and I
do have a lot to share while still keeping those boundaries.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So what do people are actually angry about what they
say they're angry. I mean, different people are angry about
different things. But the main part of the criticism and
there's been big backlash against her. They say it's not
because she lost the weight, but because she wasn't transparent
and didn't tell them what was happening all along the way.
Rachel Richards writes a newsletter called highly Flammable, which is great,
and she wrote about it this week, and she pointed
(11:25):
out that audiences don't see content creators as people. They
view them as brands, and they think of themselves as
a shareholder in that brand, which is kind of chilling.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So what you mean in this context then, is that,
so Remy Beata was a brand. She had all these
followers who probably a large proportion of them maybe were
plus size, and found her inspirational and instructional and all
those things. And now she's changed her product, as it were,
and they feel like she has somehow tricked them.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yes, so they claim that it's not the fact that
she's even changed the product, but that she didn't disclose
when she had the surgery and didn't take them on
the journey all the way along. And we've talked about
parasocial relationships before and how they can be problematic because
you feel like you know somebody and then when that
person cuts off some of the information to you, you
(12:16):
can feel quite angry or quite betrayed. We saw it
happen with Heather Armstrong who was the og Mummy blogger,
and she posted about her family a lot and had
a blog called Deuce. And when she got divorced and
didn't tell her followers exactly why she was getting divorced
and sort of pulled back, they turned on her and
she never really recovered from that. She took her life
(12:39):
a few years ago, but she never really recovered. Her
brand never really recovered because it was this idea of
entitlement that we made you successful, Therefore you work for us,
almost like a local member, a politician who represents their constituents,
and they feel entitled to answers and information.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And it's like if they were a brand, if they
were a product, then they might want their money back, right, yeah,
But these people have often never exchanged any money, so
what they want back is an interesting gay.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I want back, I want my investment, I.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Want my energy, my admiration, I want an apology. I
think that you owe me something. Because this idea of
people as brands is new, and Naomi Klein has written
about this at length and It's fascinating what she says,
because the second a person becomes a brand, it means
that they can no longer evolve. There is no opportunity
(13:32):
for change. A brand is a promise. A brand is
like even think Coca Cola. People are not Coca Cola.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
We are not like it when they change their formula.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Well, exactly right, And it's like Coca cola is a thing,
it's not a human being. Probably, what I'd say is
that to give a little bit more agency to the
influencer of all of this, influencers do profit off the
brand model. The idea that it's just the Internet turning
you into a brand isn't true. We're turning ourselves into brands. Yeah,
(14:03):
the same way, and we are making money off it.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And you almost have to be a brand to survive
in this creator economy and this attention economy, certainly to
build a following.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So yeah, she had some choices there about how to
handle what she was doing. Because if she had built
a substantial brand around the fact that her body looked
a certain way and she was monetizing it, and she'd
made a whatever fortune for herself.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Which.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
But whatever, right, So she's created something and then she
is changing that problem. She had some choices. She could
have gone, I'm going offline for six months or a year,
you're not going to see me. Or she could have gone,
I'm taking you with me. None of those things are owed.
Or she go and do something else, you know, go
and do something else. Entirely, your only career options in
(14:50):
the world are not being an influencer.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But the thing is is, although I don't have any
truck with the idea of people being mad with her
for making a very personal decision to change her body,
I also don't necessarily think that it's fair for her
to be annoyed with people for being irritated by her
that their deal they've made with her is now changed.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I don't think she's annoyed. She said, I had no
idea what this operation would be like and the recovery
from it mentally, emotionally, physically, And she said, I'm so
upside down about it all, like I'm in a body,
a different body, I'm in the world. I'm so processing
it still. I didn't know what to even say.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
If you are looking at someone else's body, someone else's behavior,
someone else's attitude to their own body, to give you
confidence that's going to break your heart, like in the
same way that investing in a brand or believing that
someone is a brand that like they're going to let
you down. Everyone's gonna let you down because they are
going to change. And I read a comment that was like,
(15:54):
it's almost akin to your favorite TV show changing genres.
And if they were to do that, if Succession were
to come out and be a horror show.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
When Beyonce does a country album, yeah, exactly, I don't
want countries from Beyonce.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, and the audience gets to choose that. I think
that the difference is the level of vitriol and the demand.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I think the entitlement's interesting too, because she was saying,
I don't know what I think about it. I'm not
ready to unpack this in real time, and.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yet she says that on a podcast with Chloe Kardashian,
So come on, I'm a little bit cynical about it,
Like she literally could live a private life. I'm not
criticizing this woman, I know. So this isn't all or
nothing for me. I literally had never heard her name
to it, So I'm not just based on purely what
you've told me. I have all the sympathy in the
world for her to do whatever she wants to do.
(16:41):
But I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be like, oh,
I thought you were one thing and now or another,
and then for the person at the center of that
to be like, this is so unfairs. She could go
do something else.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't think she's saying it's so unfair.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
She might not be saying sorry, she might not be
saying that, But I mean, as a concept, you can't
control everybody else's reaction.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Of course not, but I think that this is a
whole new world, Like she didn't mean to become an influencer.
Like influencers are a fairly new profession, and I guess
in some ways their role models. And we experience this
as content creators as well. Sometimes you put something out,
you create content and put it out in the world,
and dealing with everybody else's reaction to what you've put
out in the world is a whole other thing.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Because a brand, Naomi client says, being a brand means
to create a self that is at a distance from ourself,
a self to be consumed by others. A brand is
not what you are. A brand is how others see you.
So she was being seen as something that she wasn't
even It's like how we see people has way more
to do with us and what we're projecting.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's also about the aspiration though, right, because being famous
on the internet is a modern aspiration and what you
see over and over again, and this story seems to
be another version of this, and we've all experienced this
in different ways. But what you see happening over and
over again is somebody will come out, you know, rise
to great follower numbers on whatever platform they're on, and
(18:01):
everybody's excited about them because they're so fresh and revealing
and authentic and all those things. Then everybody discovers the
cost of that, which is enormous.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Americans call back.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
You build an audience by engaging with your audience, right,
That's how you do it, literally, And then suddenly that engagement,
you realize that's a full time job. It is exhausting
taking on other people's opinions all the time, and you
have to put up with people saying awful shit to you.
Women who live in bigger bodies online cops so much abuse,
even if they might be profiting from it. In Averted commerce.
(18:31):
So you see over and over again that people it happens,
and then people go, I can't do this anymore, and
they get off and there's a new.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Way, speaking of the cost. Did you see Robbie Williams's
post on Instagram this week?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I thought it was so.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Eloquence and insightful, and it was about having members of
the public ask for selfies and how he grapples with
whether or not it's his duty. So he wrote, there's
a kind of unspoken law as a celebrity, you should
be accessible twenty four to seven. Greet all strangers like
you're the mayor of the best town anyone's ever visited.
Make sure their wishes are met, whatever they are. Otherwise
(19:04):
you're a And then he used the C word and
he said that the assumption is that these people are
what built you like and then for you to get
over want them away. Well, he says, not necessarily, because
a lot of the people asking for a photo couldn't
name one of his albums. And really he's the Big
Ben is how he says it, like you just want
to come and get a photo with a landmark.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But I'm not the Big Ben.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I'm a human being who there is a cost.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
I'm a small Robbie.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Yeah, and like it's so true. It's like every time
someone comes up and do we have a number. I've
been in the situation where I've seen a famous person
walk past and I've gone, oh, do.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I ask for selfie?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I'm gonna regret no, So do what I did. When
I saw Robbie Williams at the Actor Awards. I got
out my phone and I sawreptitiously he was in a
public place, but I sareptitiously filmed him walking paste that's
and sent it to all my.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Friends because how often should that happen in a single day? Right,
like Robbie's walking through his life?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Does he carpet?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
That's different? That's different. I'm talking about I'm at my
local Westfield and someone walks past me, right, and I go, oh,
I really like admire that person. That person hearing that
I admire them not interesting for them a selfie? Like
which is the new autograph? Do you ask for it?
But how much does that person owe us to constantly engage?
Constantly be Robbie Williams? Because I was thinking about it
(20:22):
in terms of the service industry. Right when I walk
into a shop. That person is polite to me and
puts on a smile even when they're not feeling it.
But that person then clocks off. They then get to
go home, and they get to go to Woollies with
their head down.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
He gets to go back to his mansion that all
the fan's paid for.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
No, but he's on the phone, he talked about it.
He's on the phone to his mother who's got dementia,
and he's talking to his wife about his dad who's
got Parkinson's. And we have the right in our minds
as a public to stop him at any moment and
demand an interaction.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I don't. I would never, Like I would never.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I would.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Now, you've never stopped this famous person. Have I ever?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
But I I don't know. Oh yes, Adam Goods, I did,
Adam Woods, I've made him post for a picture with
my child once. That's true.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
But I think you read the room, you work it out.
I would never if Robbie Williams was on my plane,
I would have a conniption, because you know, he's very
famous to me being an English person. But I wouldn't
bother him. No, I would absolutely not bother him. But
and I know I sound like a terrible person. I
do a little bit think it's the price of fame.
I do like I think for movie star and it's
(21:31):
very different. Now we were just about influences, and I
think that's a bit different somehow, but for movie stars
and musicians. And maybe it's because I used to have
a trashy job in Celebrity Max. But they literally did
build their mansions with your money. They literally did the
tickets that you paid for to see the thing. And
I know there was an exchange there. They gave you
a thing, but disrespecting your fans is not cool.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
The other problem with selfies, though, is it's different to
an autograph or even just coming to say hello, because
you don't know what that person else posts on their
social You don't actually know who that person is. And
then you've they've got a selfie with your face and
you're all over their feed next to some very question
other things. So you know, if you are famous or
(22:12):
an influencer on your faces, your brand, you do have
to be careful.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
In a moment with an election ten days away, we
need to talk about the elephant in the room, a
national crisis overlooked in both election campaigns, the silence on
gender based violence this election is dangerous, and the crisis
costing billions that has barely registered. They are a taste
(22:38):
of some headlines published over the last few weeks in
regards to what many are calling Australia's political blind spot.
T Kim Tran, a forty five year old woman, had
plans this weekend to attend the Easter Show with her
two sons, but on Thursday evening, masked men stormed her home.
They kidnapped her, they assaulted her son, They dragged her
(22:59):
into a vehicle and then they set that vehicle alight.
The week before, forty five year old Luise Hunt, a
domestic violence advocate, died after her family home went up
in flames. Her husband has been charged. Claire Austin, thirty eight,
died after attempting to run through a glass door to
flee an alleged domestic violence incident. These are just some
(23:19):
of the Australian women who have died this month. Four
are understood to have died just last week. Yet in
the first two leaders' debates, there was not a question
about gender based violence. Now, in the fourth week of
a five week campaign, labour has released its Commitment to
Women announcement, so it's spoken about things like tackling financial abuse,
(23:39):
closing loopholes in tax and social security systems, and boosting
responses to perpetrators. The coalition wants to toughen bail laws,
create new offenses for technology facilitated abuse, and invest in
family support services. Holly, do you understand why Australian women
are feeling angry at the moment?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yes, absolutely, I do. We had a conversation which we
will continue to have about whether or not it was
important for our and Dutton and other senior politicians to
say something acknowledge this even though, as you've just outlined,
their policies are working in this sector.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
The funding for this sector is, depending on where you sit,
is either inadequate or not working. But it's a very
complicated issue. But the reason that women would like to
see Dutton and alban easy talk about it, and I
am one of those women I would like that is
because we know that they individually cannot fix this right.
(24:43):
But the scale of this problem is so enormous. The
names that you've just read out in those little bits
of their stories which are so upsetting, are just the
tiny tip of the iceberg. Right, Australian police get a
call about domestic violence every two minutes, every single day.
They're the people who actually pick up the phone call.
Every woman listening to this will have been affected in
(25:04):
some way by this issue. Whenever we talk about it
on this show, we get overwhelmed by comment about it.
We know because we've poled Mom and MEA's audience about
what their top issues are in the election, and this
comes in in the top four. And the thing is is,
although there are many segments to this issue. There's prevention
which is very complicated and contentious but needs to be addressed,
(25:25):
which is includes things like the cultural issues that we
often talk about, drugs and alcohol, role modeling. There's legal
which you are talking about in the Some of the
campaign promises about what to do about offenders, because women
get so outraged by hearing that very often offenders have
had multiple offenses before, or they've breached avio's and it's
the very vex problem of rehabilitation. And then there's also
(25:48):
helping the women who are suffering this. So it's a
very complicated issue and we know that Alban easy standing
up and talking about and wearing a black tie isn't
going to fix it, but I want to see their
acknowledge what is being lost every day. I have heard
them all talk multiple multiple times about their plans for
cost of living, for fuel excise, for environmental issues, for
(26:11):
health and education, and all those things are crucially important.
They have told me their positions on that one hundred
times over and over and over in this campaign. It
isn't enough to just once mention this issue. And I
wrote ages ago, when the Prime Minister was Scott Morrison,
that I wanted to see him are in a black
tie in Parliament and reading out these names. And I
still feel wow.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I think what you talk about whole is two things.
One is the symbolism and the acknowledgment and saying like
it is a complicated thing to fix. Who knows if
it can be fixed or not. But I see you,
I see your fear, I see your despair, I see
your heartbreak, and I see your fear. It's hard not
(26:53):
to feel despair because like, what can they do? Like
there are already laws that say you can't kill women,
right or you can't kill men. It's not like we
don't have laws. But I keep thinking about what Annabel
Krab famously said many years ago on this issue, which is,
if more people had been taken by sharks in the
last four weeks, we would be draining the oceans. And
(27:16):
yet nobody seems to be able to even acknowledge. What
I've noticed is that men seem to feel that if
they're not actually doing it, it's kind of got nothing
to do with them.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I feel like every time we ask, and we've had
this conversation often on the show and in different places
where we say we want to hear men talk about it,
we get pushed back. Every time, it gets pushed back
onto our lapse of them saying, well, I'm not doing it,
It's not my problem. What do you want me to do?
What I want you to do is acknowledge the scale
of this, because what I see when I look around
(27:50):
the people who are counting dead women in inverted commas
are women. The media organizations who are doing things with
campaigns like Mamma Mia does her name was to humanize
tell the stories behind these statistics and these names that
we read about the paper. A very often female lad
women are pushing this issue. Women talk about this issue,
female politicians read out the names of domestic violence victims
(28:12):
in Parliament and we just want them to do and acknowledge.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
How to see this is, I suppose it's not quite
how I see it, and I've been interrogating why I've
struggled with some of this commentary and a demand for
acknowledge it, acknowledge it, and I actually really really understand it.
But I suppose that I struggle with the difference between
symbolism and lip service and actually practically helping and addressing
(28:39):
the issue, right because a lot of people go, why
don't you say something? What do you want them to say? Like,
obviously it is such an enormous tragedy that can't be
done justice by a few words by Anthony Abenezy. But
let's remember that last year he announced the National Plan
to end Violence against Women and Children four point seven
(28:59):
billion dollars. Right, These politicians, both sides Scott Morrison, had
incredible announcements and resources that were announced to support this issue,
So it's not true to say that they're not working
towards a solution. I feel as though with this issue,
sometimes advocates and campaigners who do tireless, tireless work want
(29:21):
to tell one story. They want to tell one story,
and sometimes something comes out in the news and we
don't even have the details yet, and there is a
sense this is the wrong word, but there is a
sense of almost not from them necessarily, but maybe I
see it from tabloid media of Glee that like, and
here's another way to tell exactly the same story. And
(29:43):
I see a flesh and blood human being who was
a mum and a sister and had these critical relationships
and had such a contribution to the community, and I
see her reduced to a political issue or whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
And literally a number and a number exactly right.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
It's just another number, another number, another number, And something
about that is starting to feel dehumanizing to me. And
when I go through these stories on an individual basis,
they are not all the same story. There are similarities,
and there are you know, absolutely learnings. And I've heard
Dutton and I've heard our ben Easy talk about them
(30:22):
from bail to AVOs that are ignored mental health to
mental health, to alcohol to drug use. But Kim Tran,
that was a different story. That was a different story
to some of the others. There are also many where
legally we don't have the details yet, and I see
people fill those details in in a way I think
(30:44):
is really clumsy and unhelpful. And then we splash the
details of some of these stories, and I know I
did it in the introduction, like I worry. I worry
that putting all of these women in the same bucket
reduces them to one thing when we can't express enough
how complex this issue is. For example, the story of
(31:05):
Kim Tran is a totally different story to some of the.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Others, but it has something very important in common with
the others, which is that she lost her lives at
the hands of men because they thought she didn't matter.
And that's the thing that binds us together on this
is You're right that these stories are all very complicated,
and that's why I want to hear them. That's why
I want to hear them talked about, because they do
all have one very common thread, which is that the
lives of women don't seem to matter as much as
(31:31):
the lives of men do very very often. And I
totally get your point. I know they're doing a lot,
you know, I know that domestic violence funding, I know
there are so many experts who work in all those
areas that I've discussed before about prevention, about sentencing, about rehabilitation,
about victim support who have lived experience, and a lot
of education about what to do. And I believe our
(31:53):
leaders are listening to them, of course I do. But
there's also just something so important, as I said about
all those other issues that seem to matter so much,
about talking about it and talking about it and recognizing
it and recognizing it and talking about the complexity of this.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, because I think as well that a lot of
people go enough we want our politicians to talk about this,
and I like, what do we want them to say?
Because some of the solutions are really really complicated. For example,
there was a representative from the Australian Psychological Society on
ABC Radio Sydney just last month who said, we've really
got to talk about alcohol, So let's talk about alcohol. Yeah, exactly,
(32:29):
and that being a risk factor I think it was
involved in something like thirty four percent of intimate partner violence.
Do we want to have a serious national conversation about
what we do about that during election?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
But one of the reasons for that, this is why
this is not complicated issue? Well it's not. But also
who profits from all the alcohol that's drunk in Australia.
It's an enormous business. Who's selling the beer and the
booze and the wine. And like, you're not wrong that
it's complicated. But I think that when people say, we
want to hear you talk about it, and I know
what you hear that you hear lip service bullshit? You
(33:01):
want action. But I also don't want it to only
be an issue you know when it suits you know
what I mean. It's an issue that most women are
living with every day in some way through a friend,
a family member, their own experience, and it should feel
that way to us.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And I think don't underestimate the power of lip service
and the symbolism of it. Like when someone loses a
loved one, we say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Can it bring that person back? Can it fix it?
Can it do anything? But it's just a human acknowledgment
that says, I see you, I empathize with you, And
(33:38):
I feel that sometimes when you're having conversations with men,
good men, men who would never do this, they just
don't get it. They just don't see it as an
issue for them because they also feel helpless.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And I don't blame them.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
For that, because what are they going to do?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Like it's so cultural and this is why it can
make you feel really good.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Lip service is one of the biggest criticisms politicians get
is that it's all lip servers and it's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
No but I mean, on its own, I agree with you.
On its own, it's not enough. But just because they
can't announce new policy every day, I agree with Holly.
They can still acknowledge every time a woman is killed.
They can get up and say, and.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
They can also tell us what they're doing, because as
you've just said, they're doing a lot. And as I say,
I've heard them tell me twenty five times what they're
doing about cost of living. What if you tell me
twenty five times about what you're doing about this?
Speaker 3 (34:26):
What if Sometimes, and this might be a really unpopular
thing to say, there is absolutely nothing they can do.
There are stories that come up where you look at
it and you go, this is a story about bail laws.
This is a really important story about bail laws. And
you do see politicians come out and say we're going
to make some changes. There are some stories you see
that are so revoltingly cruel and heinous and tragic and
(34:47):
are the worst of humanity, and you think, I actually
don't know what we expect.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Of course, not nobody is suggesting. I am certainly not
suggesting that a politician stop every murder that happens in Australia.
But the thing that we keep missing here, in my opinion,
is we focus on these worst of the worst stories
rather than on that phone that's ringing every three minutes.
Of course, there are systemic things that can and are
(35:13):
being done to stop that, but that's where this starts.
It is so rare that a domestic violence death came
from out of the blue. It is so rare. It
is usually the end of a story that started way back,
and intervention could have happened at a million points. Of course,
there is no guilt on the hands of these politicians
for these women's deaths, of course there isn't. But I
(35:35):
just think that women, as Mia said, I certainly feel
it like just frustrated that they don't recognize the scale
because the deaths are one thing. But the women who
are listening to this and who we know, who are
living in fear, who can't leave a relationship for financial
reasons or because of their children, who have been victims
in the past. Like all of those, women deserve the
(35:56):
respect and acknowledgment that they're living with something that men
do not live with. They have issues with violence too
that they live with, no question, but it's not the same.
They are not in the numbers that women are living
in homes with people who seek to harm them and
control them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
If you are feeling as we are, angry, despairing all
of the things, there is something that you can do.
Mom Mia is the proud supporter of Rise Up, which
is a domestic violence charity that helps women and children
relocate and set up new lives after escaping domestic violent situations.
We will put a link in the show notes if
you can give even a few dollars to support their work.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
And if this segment has brought up anything for you
or you know someone in need, there are resources in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
A set of Australian identical twins are going viral after
an interview is it you? It is not there and
I so there's a little bit of tension. They were
both speaking about their mum being carjacked and they were
captured speaking in near perfect unison Bridget and Paula Powers.
They were speaking to seven News Queensland on Tuesday. Here's
some of what they had to say.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
And one guy he was up there with our mom
and he he went up there and he was coming
back down the wards and he goes, run, he's got
a gun. And our hearts started a pond and I said,
well mom, with's mom and paul Mama's stuck up there
(37:46):
by apparently our brave mom.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
She goes, are you all right?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Because he had all blood in.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
His face, and he goes, I'll shoot you.
Speaker 5 (37:56):
She goes, hey, I'm here to hell a mum distrategy.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Well that sounds upsetting.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Firstly, what they witnessed so traumatic has been totally lost
in the coverage because they.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Were talking about something all around the world.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
This clip round the world, and what fascinated people the
most was how they seem to know exactly what the
other was going to say as the words fell out
of their mouth. And of course what began is people
going well, I would love to see a brain wave
study of what's going on, like how telepathic they are.
Of course, it became unnecessarily cruel with lots of name calling,
(38:28):
and my question is are.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We why what names did they get called?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Oh, just kind of making fun of them and suggesting
that they didn't have any friends and that they were
some kind of side show.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Also you could tell. But just listening to that, you
can just see it going around the world with the
Australian accents. Yes and yeah they talk like there's just
that there'll be figures of mockery like within second.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
And that's the thing is that now they're on lots
of different TV shows and they're being spoken to by
lots of well meaning journalists. But do you think we're
treating them as some kind of side show? And what
is it about identical twins that's so fun for people
when they behave like well because your magic, yes.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
And you're unusual. So this is really patronizing. But I
can just imagine I haven't seen them doing the breakfast
TV rounds or whatever today, but I can just imagine
that like being do it again, do it again? Talk
about something else, let's see if it can happen. And
they are literally being treated like a freak show in
oldie worldie circus times. I understand the fascination because it's
(39:26):
really strange, right, like, if this isn't your world, it's
really strange. How do they know? But they are definitely
being treated like a freak Do you think I also?
Can you and Claire do this? And would you do
it for us?
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I reckon that main Claire, or like our brothers, if
we were sitting there, we could absolutely finish each other
sentences like that. There is just something about and I
don't think it's magic.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
I think you can do it with anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That you know, Well, yeah you do. It's proximity.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
They'd witness the same thing, their brains would be working
in somewhat the same way, and they.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Were also telling a story that were recounting a set
of fact that they both witnessed in the same way.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Then when they were later interview, even when they're asked
about anything, they can But what I think twins do
is complicate our understanding of selfhood, of identity and independence.
I think we all think we're special and that we
are these like closed off we are a boundaried person,
and even from like mythology, people have never known what
(40:29):
to do with twins because they're just like, are you
two halves of a whole? Or are you opposites or
are you the same?
Speaker 1 (40:37):
So you think it's like it's fascinating because it's a
little bit threatening.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yes, it's what it's saying is there could be two
of you for horror movies or there's so many books
written about it. The idea that it's like cloning or
like a doppel ganger. That's terrifying for people because it's
like you're actually not that special, Like if someone else
had grown up alongside you, there could be another U,
or another U or another U. I think that's what
throws us.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Do people ask you and Claire to like do tricks?
Or did they when you were younger?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Not as much.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
A lot of you just get to kindergarten and someone
punches you in the arm and says, can she feel it?
It's like no, but I could.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Thanks a lot for that, you know what. I to
zoom in on with breathless excitement on Sunday. The image
of Liz Hurley, who is obviously an iconic generation next
celebrity in pigtails and checked flannel kissing Billy ray Ciris
of Achy Breaky Heart and being the dad of Miley
Fame up against a fence while he was wearing bunny eares.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Okay, Emelia Lester sent me this picture and I just
glanced at it quickly, and I thought it was Liz
Hurley's son Damien.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Kissing her because he has a long issue, because he.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Has the same long brunette hair. They've quite affectionate and
they look very similar. We've talked before he directed her
in a very sexy movie.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
That he really Cyrus does not look like Damien.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
What was a kind of a profile and I just
glanced at it quickly on my phone. I didn't quite
understand the magnitude of what she was sending.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Well, was that on your bingo cart, Billie?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
No, it wasn't. And the thing is that was glorious
about this is it was not a grobby paparazzi shot.
This was their hard launch. He is her new boyfriend,
and like her other high profile boyfriends, he's quite a
bold choice, it would seem. Apparently they met in twenty
twenty two on the set of that Oscar nominated Netflix
special Christmas in Paradise, And she hasn't had a public
(42:19):
relationship actually since her engagement to Shane Warn that ended
in twenty thirteen, which more than ten years ago, and
she before that had had quite high profile partners Grant
back in the day, and of course the Vasacei dress
that launched both of their careers. Really, she had a child,
Damien's dad, with Steve Bing, who was this big money guy,
and then she married Aaron Mayer, and then she was
(42:42):
with Shane and they were iconic and exceptionally public, and
they broke up in twenty thirteen, but they stayed close,
and they stayed close right up to his death. But
now this is the first time she has hard launched
since then. Do we think she has a type or not?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
She has a type?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Absolutely, what's the type? They all seem very different.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
One glance at Liz Hurley's dating history and I went,
she dates a hot mess, she has a heart mess.
She goes a bad boy who I can save. We've
all been there. Liz takes one to see one. But
I just went, there is something about women who sometimes
like the rebellion of like a Hugh Grant, a Shane, Well,
(43:23):
I see, I totally see like a naughty boy, like
a naughty boy, a bad boy. And interestingly, men never
want a hot mess woman. They can't be bothered fixing them,
whereas a woman is like maybe I.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Can see the potential.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I can see. She was with Hugh Grant when he
was arrested with the sex worker in LA that became
one of the biggest scandals of the nineties. And they
stay out together right like because those who have been
together forever, they are also still close. They are still
he's I think, godfather to her son. They're like, she's
obviously a very understanding woman.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
She is, And I think that these men would be
great fun. I think they'd be terrible boyfriends, like Shane Warner.
Icon Icon Billy.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Ray is just coming off a very fast divorce. Yes,
he's reading about the era and I thought that he'd
married a woman called fire Hose. But her name is
fire Arise.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
She's Australia, is she?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yes, she seems very young and they were married very
briefly one month. The divorce is fairly acrimonious.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Apparently something about fraud.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Okay, he's pinged into the arms of Liz Hurley, who
I also read that his ex wife Tish suspected him
of having an affair with when they were making the
movie together. I missed that movie too.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Do you think that? And I know that it's reductive
to look at celebrities just through who they're dating, but hey, yeah,
that's what we're here for today. Do you think that
everybody does have a type? Taylor swifts very famous list
of boyfriends, most of whom are famous, from Harry Styles
to Tom Hillston to Joel and to Maddy Healy, Travis Kelsey.
(44:59):
What's the type there? What's the common denomenala?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
She has heras, she has heras because I think that
she might have had a type when she was in
the Harry Styles moment, Like I probably even think that
there are you Harry Styles esque one.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
And she likes a bit of a tortured artist. She
likes English guys, English guy. She's done an English Joe.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
One eight pivot with Travis. Yes, so far, because I
think dating outside your type is the hack, is the
best life hack.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Liz hasn't done country in Western before, so maybe here
we are. And on that note, I think we're done.
He is done here.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
That is all we have time for today. Out louders,
I hope you've enjoyed this rollercoaster of a show. We
want to thank you for being here. And if I haven't
seen putting it together, we're going to be back in
your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
If you're looking for something else to listen to, well,
Maya and I got back from being away and we
went just we need to sit in a room and
talk about Blue Origin for three hours because we have thoughts,
we have feelings, astronauts, we have concerns. We had to
talk about the astronauts. There was so much more to say.
We unpacked some of the criticism and whether or not
(46:09):
we would call it feminism spoiler we wouldn't. A link,
as always will be in the show notes. Bye.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!