June 2, 2025 • 42 mins
There are five distinct types of female anger, and Deborra Lee Furness might be the patron saint of all of them. But which one are you? Mia, Jessie and Holly discuss on today's show.
Also, Chief Taylor Swift Correspondent (aka Mia) has had a very exciting weekend, and explains what Tay Tay 'having ownership' of her master recordings actually means.
Plus, we've officially got the lick ick from the first episode of And Just Like That. Jessie talks fluff TV and why we keep coming back to certain shows for comfort.
And the young Australian farmer with a book deal who’s felt the wrath of Booktok — and what Holly thinks the internet has misunderstood.
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: We Need To Debrief On 'And Just Like That' Season Three, Ep One
- Listen: The Mushroom Trial Details We Can't Stop Thinking About
- Listen: Harry, Brooklyn And The Epidemic of Family Estrangement
- Listen: The Lies We Tell
- Listen: The Macron Shove, A Divorce Statement & Some ADHD News
- Listen: Jessie's Crisis Of Ambition
- Listen: Kris Jenner Thinks You're a Grub
- Listen: Dream Jobs & Situationships: Can You Really Ever Have It All?
What to read:
- Read: Luke Bateman was on The Bachelor Australia. Now he's going viral for an unlikely reason.
- Read: It took 8 years for Angelina Jolie to divorce Brad Pitt. He's just made a rare comment about it.
- Read: The one question we're all asking now that Taylor Swift owns her own music.
- Read: The new season of And Just Like That feels wildly different, for one reason that will make you smile.
- Read: And Just Like That is coming back, and a controversial character is missing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Can we talk about the licking of a hand?
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Make sure? Okay? Because I how much work can this get?
Spent the weekend asking men? I know about the licking
because I didn't know that we licked our hand. I
didn't know that that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Didn't you hang out with your family? Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I did.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
Out loud?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
What women actually talking about on Monday, the second of June.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I'm Holly wayIn right, I'm Mia Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And on the show today, all anyone's talking about is
Aiden's lick. I we are also talking about it and
the rise of fluff TV. Apparently there are five types
of angry women, and Debray Furness might be the patron
saint of all of them. And the handsome farmer with
a book deal who's felt the wrath of book talk?
But first, Miya who and the decade?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Perhaps you missed it. Taylor Swift is having a great year,
it continues. She can now say she owns all her
own music. And if you haven't been following this story,
you might assume that all music artists own their own songs,
but they actually really do. The masters, which is the
name for the actual recording, the final version of a
song that's released in an album or on Spotify or whatever,
(01:36):
that's owned by the record company that the artist is
signed to.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, say something like Universal or Sony or they own
it because they kind of paid for the production exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So they're almost like in the same way that if
you work for any employer, they own what you create
during the time of your employment in most cases. And
that's the case for artists as well. So even if
you wrote the song, and Taylor writes a lot of
her songs, the version of the song that you listen
to on Spotify or buying an album belongs to the
(02:05):
record company.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
So the artist gets a cut, but so does the
record company.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, and the record company get it's a much bigger cut,
and it also means that they have control over who
can use it in a movie or a commercial. And
as I said, they get most of the money every
time you listen. So in twenty nineteen, Taylor's Masters, though
the first six albums that she'd created all the way
up to reputation were bought by a guy called Scooter Braun.
(02:31):
He was a music manager, not someone who Taylor Swift
had a good relationship with. He paid three hundred million
dollars and she was really upset at the time because
she said she wanted the chance to buy them, but
the person who was selling them her record company, did
a deal straight away with Scooter Braun, and she was
(02:51):
absolutely devastated. This week, Taylor has brought them back for
an undisclosed amount which is said to be around the
same price, and you might say, surely it would be
worth so much more after the years tour, she's a
much bigger artist than she was in twenty nineteen. But
what happened is that when she lost the rights to
(03:12):
her masters and didn't get the chance to buy them,
she decided to re record all her albums one at
a time and re released them.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
As Taylor's version. So all of her.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fans, all the Swifties, stopped listening to the ogs and
started listening to these new releases, which really massively devalued
the value of her Masters. Scooter Braun then sold it
to a private equity firm who recently reached out to
Taylor Swift and said, do you want to buy them back?
We know how important it is to you, and she said,
she's very excited. So she released a letter saying she
(03:44):
never thought she'd be able to say it. She's thrilled.
They were very respectful in the transactions and happy days.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So she said, I think artists deserved to own their work.
That's something that she feels very passionately about. And I
think probably for people who you know, I don't know
much about the music industry, they don't understand that you
don't have full ownership. And even with I was thinking
of it comparing it to publishing, which I know a
little bit more about. We'll get into that a little
bit more late. But my books, I don't own my books.
(04:12):
They are owned by the publishing house. And for example,
if I wanted to replicate chapters of that, I would
probably need to speak to mission. I would need their permission.
And if a publishing house wanted to sell to a
mining company, then my IP, well it's not my IP,
it's not my intellectual property. But my work could be
(04:33):
owned by someone that I have some ethical issue with,
which is what happened to Taylor. It wasn't just that
someone else owned it, it was who owned it, and
they were someone who had worked with Kanye when Kanye
used the wax figure of her and had been really taunting,
and Justin Bieber had taunted her as well, and so
she felt like this person had no respect for her
(04:54):
and now owned all of her work. So I think
that that's critical to the story too. In case you
missed it, the most popular hairstyle of the last few
years is apparently causing women to lose their hair. The
slicked back bun, which is part of the clean girl
pathetic popularized by Hailey Biba, Zendea Selena GOMEZDIDS, has seen
(05:16):
women as young as twenty two left with bald patches.
So basically, do we all know what the sleepback bun is?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, it's fairly evident in the name. I don't none
of us a big wearers of a slipback bun't do it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
That can't make my hair be slick under any circumstances. Yeah, what,
why on earth would it make your hair for?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
So what happens is the sleep back bun requires you
to often style it while wet, and you pull it
and then you do a low bun. But in order
for it to have you know how in a primary
school was all about no bumps, no bumps.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The little girls when they get their dancing hair done,
he doesn't bumps exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So in order to have that, you've got to kind
of pull it right back and off and put gel in.
And the clean girl aesthetic as well is like you
kind of wear your hair at this every single day,
like that's how you're going about your life. And so
they've developed something called traction alopecia, which is hair loss
caused by repeated or prolonged tension of the hair too
(06:10):
much pulling, so it's like at the front you start
losing all of that. And experts have been warning about
this for a few years. They've said that if you
don't give your hair a break.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's do you ever do a slipbackbund?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yes, I don't. I always saw the size of my
forehead as a curse, right, I've thought about it for
a long time, but now I realize that it actually
has protected me.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
It saved you.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It saved me from the tyranny of the sleep back bun,
because I could never have done it because there's too
much forehead and the shape of my face. Would never
pull it off.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Jlo does the best sleep backbone she does.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Have you ever, it feels like something you would be doing.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
So I sometimes pull my hair off my face. I'm
also self conscious about my forehead.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
So yeah, well there are rules now, So if you're
going to do your sleep back bun, don't do it
when we're that's the rule. And also when you go
to bed, you gotta have your hair out because otherwise
you're pulling let it breathe. You've got to let your
hair breathe otherwise you're gonna lose bit of hair at
the beginning. Not that there's anything wrong with baldness.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Would go to bed with a tight ponytail or anything.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
They must say, I let my hair. I sleep in
the plats quite often.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Do you.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I sometimes pull my hair back because I don't like
to roll around and feel it like on my face.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yea, there's still a lot of hair, you know, like
get it out of the way. And also if you
sleep in a plat, you've got waves in the morning out.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Loud as we're about to talk about, and just like that.
And you might have if you're paying close attention. Notice
that this episode is in fact sponsored by and just
like that, but this is not part of that sponsorship.
We decided to do this of.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Our own accord.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
They don't know we're doing it, they don't have any
say in what we say.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
We might have just realized that it was sponsored by
and just like that, we'll.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Carry we'll carry thing. This is very much. We want
to talk about it because it's part of the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
So it comes thinking I couldn't have interest.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
We need to talk about the lickic We do because
it's really the only way to describe a very particular
scene in the new season, Evan, just like that. It
happened in episode one, which is the fallo up to
Sex and City side note, why can't it just be
called Sex and the City? I still don't understand.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Because it's a new universe. Maya have you not listened
to Daddy Michael Patrick King. It's a new show, it's
a new era, it's.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
A new time. Get with it, Get with it, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So we have done another episode that we dropped on
the weekend where we recap episode one.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That's not what this is.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Because in case you haven't got around to watching it
on Max. The lickic happens during a phone sex scene
between Carrie in her enormous New New York apartment and
her honor.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Would we call an apartment or would we call it
a Max? It's like a two story.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I know they keep calling it a Brownstone or an apartment.
I don't know how new it works. Her on off
love Interest is Aiden. He is sitting in his car
in a field in Virginia with a beer and his
hand down his pants. Here's a little bit about how
it sounded.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Touch yourself, Okhea, touch yourself?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Be me from me?
Speaker 6 (09:12):
Are you touching yourself?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
This is just I can't I actually can't listen. He
licks his hand.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Can we talk about the licking of the hand?
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Make sure?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Okay? Because I how much work this? Get spent the
weekend asking men I know about the licking because I
didn't know that we licked our hand. I didn't know
that that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Didn't you hang out with your family?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I did, And I don't understand because I was like
the men u's lube. Why did he need to lick
his hand in order to do that?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Surely you can work it out this is why very
often hand cream the bed before we leave.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Woman explained it, what did the men in your life
tell you?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
One man in my life said, I don't know, I
don't understand, and I was like, okay, so I don't
I don't know if this is a very personal thing
that's going on, but it was the grunting for me.
It was definitely the lick of the hand so bad.
And it was I said in that episode that we
recorded about and just like that, that I find aiden
deeply on sexy. So that contributed to Mike.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I've always found him a bit soft. He's not my
type of person. And look, I think it's safe to
say a new level of ick was unlocked in that
scene and by this episode.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It's so funny because when we recorded our and just
like that recap, we were lucky enough to watch the
episodes a little bit early, and we hadn't seen the
public reaction to episode one yet, but it was very.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Similar to ours, yes.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Which was like what yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And I did listen to what Michael Patrick King had
to say about it, and he said he wanted to
push aid and then carry to places that hadn't been before.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Which is difficult because I've been to a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That Carrie has never really done the dirty talk in
that way before, and it was a whole new thing,
and I was like, do we have to break new
ground at this point?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Do we have to?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well? The sound you can hear is the sound of
millions of women's legs just snapping shut. Yes, and their
vagina's shriveling up into deserts. Even thinking about that scene,
but scene aside, group chats and social and out louders
in all the groups and all the places, you're all
popping off with opinions about the show. It's cringe, it's fabulous, We're.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Appalled by the carrots, cringe and fabulous.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
We're delighted to spend time with them again.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
All of the about it's terrible. I can't wait for
next week.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, why do you think it's so polarizing?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think you know, we've talked a lot about how
much we love these women and we love spending time
with them, but there is nothing they could ever do
that would make us happy. Because when you've got literally
twenty years of history with somebody, you've got a lot
of opinions about how they should behave. But I think
that despite everybody's varied opinions about this, this season is
going to be a hit because, without question, what we
(11:55):
are all in the mood for is some silly fun
look at a lot of the shows, with a few
very notable exceptions, like Adolescents, a lot of the big
shows in the last year have been fluffy, what we
would call fluffy. So even if they do have a
bit of darkness in them, they've been very camp, very colorful,
very funny. So I think White Loaders think the perfect couple,
(12:16):
think Sirens, which is what everybody's watching. Even I inhaled
that running point with Kate Hudson in it, I acknowledge
when I recommended it that I didn't necessarily think it
was particularly high quality, but it was exactly what I
was in the mood for. And I think there's two
things about this. One is, you know, there's no question
the world is dark and all of those things. Politics
(12:37):
is a very dangerous place to go at the moment,
particularly in America. Everybody's talking about polarization and how let's
just all talk about something else. You know, they even
cut some politics from White Loadus. Remember that, Yeah, they
got rid of a storyline about one of the characters
having a trans child, because I think that at the moment,
everybody's going we don't want to talk about anything serious.
(12:58):
We just want to watch the.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Beautiful houses have a laugh.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Argue about Aiden's penis is disgusting, why we should have
licked his hand, and where that.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Carry's hat is abs urge like that seems like a
safe thing.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Toot a bonnet. I just need to think about a
bonnet for a little while. I think it is the
re emergence of camp and this sort of nineties sensibility,
because there's also the rewatch phenomenon, and it's like going
back to your childhood home in a way where it
was simpler and when you were different. Going back to
these characters reminds me of who I was when I
(13:32):
watched it for the first time. And I was scrolling
the other day and there was a clip from the
show Felicity. Remember the show Felicity. I hadn't thought about
that in years, and I thought, oh, I'd love to
go back and watch that. Even the way it was
filmed it was so much softer. It was almost blurrier.
There was no high definition. The camera panning was different,
and I thought, Oh, that would be such a reprieve
(13:53):
to go back and watch that kind of comfort viewing.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Do you think it's also second screening. Every so often
the characters sort of re mention the plot, like restate
what's happening, almost like daytime soaps, you know that exactly
reality TV shows. And that's to account for the fact
that people are sort of looking at their phones and
then they'll look up and they still need to be
able to be following what's going along.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, and also you can predict what the next sentence is.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
There are no surprises. Obviously there was big in the
first season, but other than that, there's not been any
high stake surprises. And I know that I.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Didn't think ROUNDA was going to fuck it out.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I wouldn't have had that on my big coat. Yeah,
but like it didn't change my week, you know, yeah, right,
and it changed my week. But there are two things
going on for the worst. You're right, there's like this
campy fluff. But then I think, if we're so fair
to call.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It fluff, that feels dismissive.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Okay, but I like fluff, so I don't think fluff
is dismissive. I think there's a place for everything. I mean,
people have never watched as many documentaries as they have
since streaming. Right, If you want to go and watch
something incredibly smart in depth, that's what Jesse is doing.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, I watch the documentary true crime.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Stuff, true crime stuff, anything you want about climate change,
about the state of the prison system, about anything you want.
It's there for you, right, And I think that's great.
But also I think there's a growing feeling of like,
when I just want to turn my brain off, it
doesn't mean it's bad, it doesn't mean it's terrible.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
For those Every producer, publisher, everyone I speak to says,
the thing we're looking for right now are rom coms.
That's what everyone has been wanting for the last two years.
That's what they're seeking. On the other hand, though, let's
be honest about the biggest shows of twenty twenty five,
because it's adolescence. As you said, it's severance, it's the pit.
The Handmaid's Tail has just wrapped up. Even the White Lotus,
(15:41):
there was some darkness to that, like there is this
other side, which is like this prestige dark television that
is grappling with the intensity of our.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Top I think I agree, but I also think that
Prestige TV doesn't have to be dark, right, which is
what White loatus. I mean, it's always dealt with dark things.
It's a murder show from its first season, but it
does it in quite a light way, right, And I
think you're right, of course with adolescents and those shows,
but I think, I don't know. I think there's a
mood shift and it's to do with playing it safe
(16:13):
a little bit, but you can those shows can still
be high quality.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I heard it described Sirens and then just like that
as affluence porn because there's one perfect couple with definitely yeah,
because there's this self consciousness to obviously the White Lotus,
which is all about let's hate on rich people, but
this is almost like unashamed look at the bonnet, look
at the match, and look at her do this up.
I guess that's what selling Sunset is as well. It's
(16:38):
just like this escapism and maybe there's some aspiration behind.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Your recession indicator as well. Yep, Like the harder things
are in people's real lives, the more they want to escape,
and like little luxuries and little indulgences.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
In a moment, did Debory Furness do angry women everywhere
a favor by putting Hugh Jackman on blast. Remember last
week we did a quick update on Hugh Jackman and
Debory Furnas's divorced. You remember that, Yeah, because it's just
been an ounced that they were finally divorced, that it.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Was done, and she released that statement to Daily Mail
and when we recorded, it seemed so out of character. Yeah,
and we actually didn't know if it was real or not,
so we were sort of a bit We're not quite sure.
Surely she didn't say this because it was quite raw.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
She did say that, So just a quick recap on
what she said was, among other things, my heart and
compassion goes out to anyone who has traversed the traumatic
journey of betrayal. It is a profound wound that cuts deep.
Debraly Finnis definitely did say that it's the first time
she's come out since they're split, which is over a
year ago, two years ago, I think, and confirmed what
(17:47):
lots of people have been talking about, which is that
she at least feels very betrayed by what happened and
he's now repartnered. And then Jesse shared something in our
group chat. That was Hugh's response that went completely over
my head. Please explain, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
So, I was just minding my own business on Friday,
doing a little scroll and I see Hugh Jackman doing
a love little dance on Instagram, like with ski I
love few Jackman doing a little dance. So I turned
it on and watched and he was dancing to Bye
Bye Bye by n Sync, which was all about farewelling
a partner. And then I looked at a nice fashion
(18:23):
not in a nice way. I looked at the caption
which was just in capitals the word finally, and I
put it in our grip chat and I said, guys,
have we seen this? And Holly was like, he's so
good at skipping.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Because that's a little quip from his one man show
that he's not doing anymore. But then he didn't release.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
At the time, I thought it was a flex of like,
look how fit I am, because skipping's really hard.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I've tried it. It wasn't about skipping, hollywhen right, sorry,
it was shade.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
It was about saying finally bye bye to my ex wife.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So the reaction since has been mixed, and the reason
we want to talk about it again.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
How did you feel about that when you.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I was like petty, Hugh, very petty. I think sometimes
if you're the one who's been called out, well, I
guess you make a decision. But it would have been
classic shut up, right, will Yeah. But then that's what
this conversations about, right, because that's how some people feel
about what Debraley said. Some people are like, oh, much
classier to keep your mouth shut. And then I read
this article by Kate Halfpenny in the Nine Papers on
(19:24):
the weekend that argued in defense of women not having
to play nice all the time when they're on the
end of a particularly nasty betrayal. She wrote, without taking
sides on the ethics of a marriage, I basically know
nothing about. Here's why I am applauding what Furness's move
stands for. Back to the honesty First, she reminded us,
you don't have to keep smiling when someone blows up
(19:44):
your life. You don't owe anyone a soft landing for
decisions they made, or have to perform gratitude for the
privilege of being abandoned. She reminded us, you don't need
to prioritize everyone else's comfort over what you're busting to say,
even if sometimes admitting life sucks feels risky. What do
we think about that? Do we think that a woman scorned,
(20:06):
which is, you know, the cliche, has kind of been
given a bit of permission by what Debraly said.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I liked her point that you don't have to keep
smiling when someone blows up your life and you are
allowed to leave your wife for someone else. That is
not against the law, right, but that person that you
left gets to have a feeling about it and gets
to express that if they want. And I think what
(20:33):
I felt about the Hugh Jackman response, which perhaps it
was just a very poorly timed ode tenC. Finally what, well,
finally he's done of it.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Finally, Yes, there's no good intention interpretation.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And that's the thing is you can make that decision,
but then you don't get to be shady about it.
I reckon that Deborah or whatever then gets to have
the last word, and then we let it lie. There
was something. So we don't know what happened in their marriage.
We don't know what happened or how.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's been since. But then in terms of decided.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
To leave, I think Deborah le Furness owned it, and
she said what she meant. I think what was difficult
about the Hugh Jackman thing is that it was slightly obscure,
which felt less honest.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I think it felt like Debrelee was punching up and
it felt like Hugh Jackman was punching down in that instance.
Of course, the most famous betrayal, you know that would
be an analog comparison would be when Jennifer Aniston was
left by Brad Pitt for Angelina Jolie, who was the
co star in his movie Mister and Missus Smith.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
The subject of my thesis.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yes, and so, just like about a month or so
after they had announced their split and the world had
learned through paparazzi photos that Brad and Angelina were in
fact a couple. They posed for as part of the
publicity for Mister and Missus Smith. They posed for the
cover of w magazine and it was like this sort
of set as if they were this couple. There were
(22:01):
like six babies and it was like them. Remember that
magazine pitched in my brain. One of the photos was
them with six babies, as if it was fairly precientt
but as if it was that that was their family,
and they were played a couple in this photoshoot. And
in her first interview in Vanity Fair, Jennifer Aniston was
asked about it, and the whole world was waiting to
see how she would handle this most public betrayal, and
(22:25):
I remember exactly what she said of him. She said,
I feel like he's missing a sensitivity chip. Yeah, And
then she also said about Angelina Jolie something about it
being not cool, and that was that was as much
as she said ever.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Ever, So I read this story over the weekend about anger,
women's anger, and it was an interview with a woman
named doctor Jennifer Cox who's written this book about female anger,
and she says that it presents differently in different women.
For some it's like a slow, bubbling sensation, and for
others it is like a hot iron and it hits
(23:03):
them really really fast. Right, And then she said that
there are five different anger personalities that women have. The
first is the internalized, So you keep it inside and
you think that expressing it would be really impolite, and
the impacts of that on your physical health have been proven,
so for us, I think it is too and so
you just kind of suppress, suppressuppress. Then you've got the reactor.
(23:25):
She has been labeled a Karen. You snap, so you
react in the moment, which isn't ideal either, sobolutely the
denier And that means and maybe I relate most with this,
the denier. You don't even know you're angry. You label
it something else, You label it sad, you label it worried.
The displacer. I think a lot of women will relate
with this. You absorb the anger from your boss being
(23:46):
a dickhead to you, and then you go home and
take it out on your husband. You displace the anger
in your life. And the last one is the embracer,
and that's what we should all be aiming for. And
to be an embracer is too sometimes like decide whether
or not you're going to express it, but acknowledge that
anger is a thing that actually isn't a negative emotion.
The reason why you get a rise in adrenaline and
(24:08):
cortisola is because your body is saying there is something
in this situation that needs to change. So it's giving
you the energy to go to say something propulsive. Yeah,
exactly right. It's actually a really positive thing and so
I thought with Deborah Lee that you decide whether you're
going to do something with the anger or whether you're
going to sit with it, and sometimes it's better for
you to do something with it.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, but Debra isn't just us right as in that
she knew that that statement was going to make headlines
around the world and was going to change forever the
way everybody looks at Hugh Jackman and his new relationship.
So it was a very specific grenade to throw. And
I'm not saying whether or not she should have done it,
but it's you know, one of the things that Kate
(24:48):
Halfpenny says in that is she said it was very
strategic to wait this long, and so in a way
that was really smart, because you know, revenge is a
dish best of cold, all of that's.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
They were negotiating and.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Then throw them and then throw the grenade. But it
was a very emotional statement. It's interesting because you know,
every expert on divorce ever will say if there are
children involved, it's absolutely critical to never criticize the other person.
But also, what is it like, Well, I know what
it's like for people who are always around everybody.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Pretending everything's fine.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
When it's really not fine, particularly for women, particularly for
that sort of buttoned up lip. I'm not going to
criticize him even though he's doing X y Z. Is
that always the best policy? I don't think it is.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
You know, it's certainly cut through in this age of
celebrity split announcements that are like.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
We've never loved each other more, we are best friends
too much, very much love.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
We just need to split it, to be honest, That's
where they started, right Like, when they first announced that split,
it was like that, and it's like finally now, I
think perhaps, and also before while it was all still
playing nice. Often in splits, it takes a long time
for everything to settle out and then you're like.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Right, yeah, after the break the book deal that people
are not happy about out loud As.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
If you want to listen to us every day of
the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
By becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
support us, and a big thank you to all our
current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Have you two seen the story about the TikToker Luke
Bateman who got a book deal. No, you've missed it.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I have seen him a little bit. I saw him
interviewed on TV a while ago. He is correct me
if I'm wrong, A handsome, wholesome, countryish dude who talks
about romantic books in this tractor.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Is that correct? Absolutely?
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
So Australian. Oh, Australian.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Australian.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
So this is what happened. Luke Bateman, he's thirty years
old and he used to play for the NRL team,
the Camber Raiders, so as an NRL player. Then a
couple of years ago he was on The Bachelor and
he made the top three or something, so he had
a little bit of a platform. But then in April
of this year he started doing this thing on TikTok.
He has an account called Luke Reads where he would
(27:15):
read fantasy smut. He also shares like book reviews and
he talks about his love fantasy novels. He's just a
little bit of a taste of the kind of content
that he creates.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
These six books are my six god tear fantasy books.
These are the books that are just hedgeh holders above
everything else for me, and the books of you know,
made me yell, they've made me cry. They're let me
with the biggest bookangos I've ever had in my life.
I can't wait to share them with you. Starting out
with book number six, Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hope.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Holly is someone who is in the book industry genius. Uh,
fantasy is where.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's at, huge, romantic fantasy and sexiest fantasy as we're
calling it, the Court of Thorn Rose's series. All of
those are the biggest selling books by about a bajillion
mile exactly. So absolute genius for a handsome, straight Aussie
bloke to be sitting in a tractor talking about that stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Genius. It's not what you would expect.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's not what you would expect. But I think he
genuinely really likes these fantasy books. And he would also
provide he do kind of book reviews, and he would
do recommendations and all that kind of stuff. And in
a matter of weeks he amassed one hundred and seventy
thousand followers, so he blew.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Up and lots of his videos have had millions of views.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And so what he just talks about the books that
he's reading.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So it's like a book talk account right, But then
came the announcement. Here is what Luke told his followers all.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Book talk, I just wanted to share some incredible news
with you. Or I've just signed a two book deal
with Atria and Simon s Australia. This is a childhood
dream come true for me. I've wonder be an author
of my whole life. So it really blows me away.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So what is he going to write books now? Yes?
So he signed a two book deal for a fantasy
series that he hasn't written yet.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Can he write? Well, we know he can read.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We don't know that yet, but he.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Says it came.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
He says he can.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Someone else can write it. Anyway, you guys write out,
we can look.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
While some were excited for Luke, there were others that
it inspired a flurry of think pieces, of opinions, of
videos and comments about how the publishing industry is broken
and how white men full upwards. Here's a little sense
of what the reaction was.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
The worst thing you could have done was hop up
on TikTok and tell everybody that you signed a two
book deal and you haven't even wrote a manuscript. And
I want you to know this is not me coming
for your neck. I want to be honest, because you're
about to see a shift. If you haven't already in
the last twenty four to forty eight hours, you're going
to see a major shift. The following you had is
(29:51):
not going to be the following you continue to have.
You stepped on a lot of people's next to get
a two book deal. Whether it was your intention or not,
it doesn't matter. I frankly don't think you deserve a
two book deal. There are too many minorities, too many
women who are out here fighting daily to try to
get what you just got handed to you.
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Are you met about the Luke Bateman deal, because that's nothing.
I was working at a big five publisher when this
guy got a deal that he got a five hundred
thousand dollar book deal because his wife was famous.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
The Australian publishing scene, Luke's Australian. The Australian publishing scene
is a lot smaller than the UK and the US,
to the extent that Australian publishers get really excited about
Australian book creators, and so the Australian publishers have probably
seen Luke come on to book talk make a bit
(30:49):
of a following for himself, the build off of the
fact that he's already a celebrity and have gone like, oh,
we hear that you're writing a book. Can we talk
about it?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And he's obviously not going to say no, this is wild.
This seems exactly like what happened to Glennon Doyle when
she launched a paid newsletter on Sepstack. First of all,
what do they think the book industry is? Do they
think it's a charity because it's not. It's a business.
And secondly, what do they want him to say, No,
don't give this book deal to.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Me, give it to other people. I would assume that
he wrote some sort of proposal, like I probably believe
that they reached out to him and said you had
a book in the works, and they would have reached
out to him, and they do that all the time.
They do that all the time, right, And look, he's responded.
He has said he's speaking to people from marginalized groups
to see how he can also uplift their work and
he understands why some people feel let down by the industry.
(31:40):
Holly is a criticism towards Luke and more broadly, the
publishing industry fair.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, the book industry isn't fair. It is absolutely true
that you could be the world's most gifted writer and
the person who's got a million TikTok followers is going
to get a book dealer over you. It's just true, right,
And the reason for that, and the last voice we
heard there hit the nail on the head. The book industry,
particularly in Australia, is small. It is not that profitable.
(32:08):
Publishers themselves do not have boundless budgets. And the whole
point of why they get excited about creators and writers
who have followings is because it does nearly all their
marketing work for them.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
So you know, obviously I'm a writer, you're a writer.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
We're all writers at this table.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I know that I have a massive head start because
I have a following in terms of when I publish
a book. There is no question. I absolutely acknowledge that.
And that is attractive to a publishing house because otherwise
you're trying to get your book out in a tiny market,
in an increasingly chaotic and crowded publicity space. You know,
once upon a time, get it in the book pages
(32:47):
of the Woman's Weekly, get it in the literary pages
of the broadsheet newspapers, and those things still all exist,
but their influence is shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and
shrunk and shrunk. So the places that people find out
about books is social media, just like it's the place
they find out a bout everything else. TV shows, makeup music,
all of those things, movies, and so if you've got
a creator who's got a following, half of that work
(33:08):
has already done, so that is obviously more attractive to
the publishing industry. Does that mean they'll publish any old
nonsense if you've got a following, Well no, because people
still have to want to buy it. And the most
successful books are the ones that people buy, read love,
and the word of mouth builds, and it will build
on social media as well as it will build elsewhere.
(33:29):
And there are countless examples of books from people who
don't have followings becoming hits. But it's a sure of
fire bet for a publishing house to start with someone
with a following, right. The thing is is it's not
a guarantee. I was looking at an author the other
day and she was sort of berating her audience, almost saying,
I've recently published a book, and I've got my book
(33:50):
scan sales and they're not very much because you need
to be really clear. In Australia, again, small market, not
that many people buy books anymore, ever, shrinking market in
a way because of all the competition for our attention.
So if you sell a thousand books, you're doing well.
If you sell five thousand books, you're an absolute bestseller.
And this author was saying, I know what my book
scan numbers are, and I know what my audience is,
(34:12):
and if all of you had bought a book, I
would be a best seller. But you haven't all bought
a book. Go and by a book, and that's not
how it works. So it's great to have a following.
It gives you a massive leg up in your promotion,
no question. But he isn't always going to translate the
point of this criticism though, And there is a validity here,
of course, is that does Luke Bateman, and maybe he's
(34:35):
a great writer. And I love anyone who's encouraging people
to read books, and particularly if they're young men. I
think that's fantastic because and few young people are reading books,
and I think we could all agree that they should
does he get a book deal at the expense of
someone else, because that is what is being suggested here,
that there's only so much pie that it's.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Actually the other way around. So if he sells a
million books, that means that the publishers will have more
money to take some risks on new undiscovered authors. What
hits me about this every time is the sense of entitlement.
Nobody's entitled to a book deal or a newsletter following.
(35:14):
It's a bit like saying to Nicole Kidman, you don't
need the money. You're really famous, So next time you're
off at a movie. There are so many actors who
want to be successful and would like to be in
a movie, you should step aside. But the thing is
that it doesn't work that way. It's not like someone
takes the money that was going to be paid to
Nicole Kidman and one hundred unemployed actors get that money.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
It's just not how it works. I suppose what I
can feel people saying, which I think is probably fair. Right,
we can all agree that having a platform, whether it's
on and BookTok, is its whole other discussion because BookTok
has its power that even Instagram doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Anymore, and it's harder to game.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's harder to game, right, So I can understand them going,
oh my god, what BookTalk is so the biggest books
of the last few years. Colleen Hoover is the best
example have been born of BookTok It has happened rather organically,
of people picking up Colleen Hoover, who never sold, was
not a bestseller, and when this book really good and
next minute she has dominated the charts for years.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So it wasn't a mark, to be clear, it wasn't
a marketing thing that she or a publishing company said,
I'm going to go on BookTalk and try to be famous.
It happened organically exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
But what I appreciate at a time when platforms matter
more than ever is if you are in a marginalized group,
if you are Indigenous, if you are black, if you
feel like you're in a marginalized group, who the algorithm
doesn't reward. And this is what I've heard a lot
of people talk about this that if you look at
(36:44):
the biggest influences in Australia, they do all happen to
be white. So the algorithm loves pretty white women. Yeah,
so pretty white women build a platform and then what
comes from that platform is a lot of wealth and opportunity.
So I can understand how it might feel if you're going,
I'm trying to get that platform, but they're.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Angry at the wrong guy. Like we're all living in
this attention economy, which we all hate, like to be clear,
except my the Kardashians, who it's working for, But we
all live in this world not by choice.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
It is just the world.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
To attack this guy forgetting a book deal because he
organically went and that was not a popular thing to do,
Like I don't think about.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
What I struggle with is when I see comments and
commentary of people saying things that are just blatantly untrue
because they don't actually understand how the publishing industry works.
For example, no one gets a book deal without a manuscript.
That is just underrue.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Every prime minister, every sporting cat.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Again, Holly and I and you mea all acknowledge our
privilege in this space. We are not the average author
in Australia, but we got a book deal off a
proposal and we're not alone in that. If you work
in media, if Margo Robbie said to this publisher, I
think I've got a book on me. They would sign
her tomorrow. She doesn't have to prove her chops in
that they would make that work.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
The other thing that I think is always worth mentioning
about this because book world loves a bit of a
blow up like this. It's almost like we think that
book one thing, you know what I mean, Like we're
comparing cookbooks and memoirs and romanticy with literary fiction and
historical memoir and like they're not, you know what I mean.
(38:21):
Books are many, many things. And the book that Luke
Bateman is probably going to write and I don't know,
but like I'm imagining, is probably not the book that
an unknown author who's desperately trying to get a book
deal from somewhere is trying to get. Like just because
it's called a book and it looks like a book
and it smells like a book, it's a million different things.
(38:43):
You can't argue that, you know, sort of a beauty
book is the same thing as orbital, you know what
I mean, And yet they're all books. It's kind of
a strange argument that this is taking from that.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
I think this probably represents people's frustration with TikTok more broadly,
but also if you are a brilliant writer who is
trying to get a book deal in Australia, I think
every publishing house would agree that it's really, really hard,
and that the gate keepers of even getting into that
house feels near impossible. Like I have people message me
all the time and say how do I get my
(39:16):
book in front of people? And it is so bloody hard.
And so when you see someone who's done a few
weeks of work on TikTok, I can totally understand that frustrately.
Good Wednesday morning, I'm Olivia Jeequi.
Speaker 7 (39:28):
And I'm Julia Dunn. We do have some breaking news
this morning. Literally Olivia's water has broke, okay, and she
is anchoring the news now in active labor.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Early labor, early labor.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
We've been doing the contract. She's now, you know, timing
her contract. I'm going to pay a question two minutes apart.
Speaker 8 (39:46):
No, well there was one, but it's been a few
minutes since then.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
So we're still on good.
Speaker 7 (39:50):
She her decision to stay on the desk.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Look at what it says days past two dates.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Oh there we go, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
So we're thinking I'm to be here and I'll stay
on the desk for as long as I possibly can't that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Right, this is upping a bucket to studio too.
Speaker 6 (40:04):
Please.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I can just feel mea being like well, Jesse knocked
off a bit early exactly when I went and had
my baby.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
That was news anchor Olivia Jaqui and her co host
Julie Done. They were hosting the local CBS news in Albany,
New York, last week, right, and Olivia was two days
overdue with her first child. Now what you heard there
was obviously Julie filling us in on what was going
on with Olivia and Olivia choosing to stay. She stayed
(40:30):
on the show from that bit you just heard for
three hours, three hours after her she did the whole
three hour session. She kept coming back after the break.
And what I loved is that Julie, who is also pregnant, FYI,
Julie was there going.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Olivia's chosen to be here.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Olivia would like to stay on the desk. Olivia wants
to stay. Olivia was tied to the desk by her employer.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Just to be clear, it's not a work life balance issue.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
And when the broadcast finished after three hours, Olivia went
to the hospital with her husband and her baby boy,
Quincy was born less than twenty four hours later. Now,
what I love about that, as well as the fact
that Julie kept having to tell everybody that Olivia was
not being held against her well, is how quietly defensive
that story makes a lot of women who've had a
baby right where they're like, exactly, They're like.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I went to the hospital. Was I supposed to finish
my shift? The first thing I thought was like, are
you mentioned go to the hospital when your water breaks?
And then I needed to desperately know if this was
her first baby, because I thought, this is the behavior
of a woman who's had too and is like.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I've never had my waters break in the wild. I've
always wanted it to because I like the idea of
the drama.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
So life Hack. One of my very close friends had
her water's break during a pregnancy massage, and she got
the massage for free and in charge of Oh really.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Very good Live Hack.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I know you have to go through a lot to
get massage, but hey, that's all we have time for today.
We are settling in nicely to our new studios. If
you want to know what they look like, come and
see us on Instagram or YouTube or on YouTube where
segments of our show are up for you all to watch.
Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
You can visit them at Fenton and Fenton dot com
(42:09):
dot A you.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
And a big thank you to all the out louders
for listening to the show and our fabulous team for
putting the show together. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Can we talk about the licking of a hand?
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Make sure? Okay? Because I how much work can this get?
Spent the weekend asking men? I know about the licking
because I didn't know that we licked our hand. I
didn't know that that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Didn't you hang out with your family? Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I did.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
Out loud?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
What women actually talking about on Monday, the second of June.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I'm Holly wayIn right, I'm Mia Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And on the show today, all anyone's talking about is
Aiden's lick. I we are also talking about it and
the rise of fluff TV. Apparently there are five types
of angry women, and Debray Furness might be the patron
saint of all of them. And the handsome farmer with
a book deal who's felt the wrath of book talk?
But first, Miya who and the decade?
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Perhaps you missed it. Taylor Swift is having a great year,
it continues. She can now say she owns all her
own music. And if you haven't been following this story,
you might assume that all music artists own their own songs,
but they actually really do. The masters, which is the
name for the actual recording, the final version of a
song that's released in an album or on Spotify or whatever,
(01:36):
that's owned by the record company that the artist is
signed to.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, say something like Universal or Sony or they own
it because they kind of paid for the production exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So they're almost like in the same way that if
you work for any employer, they own what you create
during the time of your employment in most cases. And
that's the case for artists as well. So even if
you wrote the song, and Taylor writes a lot of
her songs, the version of the song that you listen
to on Spotify or buying an album belongs to the
(02:05):
record company.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
So the artist gets a cut, but so does the
record company.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, and the record company get it's a much bigger cut,
and it also means that they have control over who
can use it in a movie or a commercial. And
as I said, they get most of the money every
time you listen. So in twenty nineteen, Taylor's Masters, though
the first six albums that she'd created all the way
up to reputation were bought by a guy called Scooter Braun.
(02:31):
He was a music manager, not someone who Taylor Swift
had a good relationship with. He paid three hundred million
dollars and she was really upset at the time because
she said she wanted the chance to buy them, but
the person who was selling them her record company, did
a deal straight away with Scooter Braun, and she was
(02:51):
absolutely devastated. This week, Taylor has brought them back for
an undisclosed amount which is said to be around the
same price, and you might say, surely it would be
worth so much more after the years tour, she's a
much bigger artist than she was in twenty nineteen. But
what happened is that when she lost the rights to
(03:12):
her masters and didn't get the chance to buy them,
she decided to re record all her albums one at
a time and re released them.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
As Taylor's version. So all of her.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fans, all the Swifties, stopped listening to the ogs and
started listening to these new releases, which really massively devalued
the value of her Masters. Scooter Braun then sold it
to a private equity firm who recently reached out to
Taylor Swift and said, do you want to buy them back?
We know how important it is to you, and she said,
she's very excited. So she released a letter saying she
(03:44):
never thought she'd be able to say it. She's thrilled.
They were very respectful in the transactions and happy days.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So she said, I think artists deserved to own their work.
That's something that she feels very passionately about. And I
think probably for people who you know, I don't know
much about the music industry, they don't understand that you
don't have full ownership. And even with I was thinking
of it comparing it to publishing, which I know a
little bit more about. We'll get into that a little
bit more late. But my books, I don't own my books.
(04:12):
They are owned by the publishing house. And for example,
if I wanted to replicate chapters of that, I would
probably need to speak to mission. I would need their permission.
And if a publishing house wanted to sell to a
mining company, then my IP, well it's not my IP,
it's not my intellectual property. But my work could be
(04:33):
owned by someone that I have some ethical issue with,
which is what happened to Taylor. It wasn't just that
someone else owned it, it was who owned it, and
they were someone who had worked with Kanye when Kanye
used the wax figure of her and had been really taunting,
and Justin Bieber had taunted her as well, and so
she felt like this person had no respect for her
(04:54):
and now owned all of her work. So I think
that that's critical to the story too. In case you
missed it, the most popular hairstyle of the last few
years is apparently causing women to lose their hair. The
slicked back bun, which is part of the clean girl
pathetic popularized by Hailey Biba, Zendea Selena GOMEZDIDS, has seen
(05:16):
women as young as twenty two left with bald patches.
So basically, do we all know what the sleepback bun is?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, it's fairly evident in the name. I don't none
of us a big wearers of a slipback bun't do it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
That can't make my hair be slick under any circumstances. Yeah, what,
why on earth would it make your hair for?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
So what happens is the sleep back bun requires you
to often style it while wet, and you pull it
and then you do a low bun. But in order
for it to have you know how in a primary
school was all about no bumps, no bumps.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The little girls when they get their dancing hair done,
he doesn't bumps exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So in order to have that, you've got to kind
of pull it right back and off and put gel in.
And the clean girl aesthetic as well is like you
kind of wear your hair at this every single day,
like that's how you're going about your life. And so
they've developed something called traction alopecia, which is hair loss
caused by repeated or prolonged tension of the hair too
(06:10):
much pulling, so it's like at the front you start
losing all of that. And experts have been warning about
this for a few years. They've said that if you
don't give your hair a break.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's do you ever do a slipbackbund?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yes, I don't. I always saw the size of my
forehead as a curse, right, I've thought about it for
a long time, but now I realize that it actually
has protected me.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
It saved you.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It saved me from the tyranny of the sleep back bun,
because I could never have done it because there's too
much forehead and the shape of my face. Would never
pull it off.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Jlo does the best sleep backbone she does.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Have you ever, it feels like something you would be doing.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
So I sometimes pull my hair off my face. I'm
also self conscious about my forehead.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
So yeah, well there are rules now, So if you're
going to do your sleep back bun, don't do it
when we're that's the rule. And also when you go
to bed, you gotta have your hair out because otherwise
you're pulling let it breathe. You've got to let your
hair breathe otherwise you're gonna lose bit of hair at
the beginning. Not that there's anything wrong with baldness.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Would go to bed with a tight ponytail or anything.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
They must say, I let my hair. I sleep in
the plats quite often.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Do you.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I sometimes pull my hair back because I don't like
to roll around and feel it like on my face.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yea, there's still a lot of hair, you know, like
get it out of the way. And also if you
sleep in a plat, you've got waves in the morning out.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Loud as we're about to talk about, and just like that.
And you might have if you're paying close attention. Notice
that this episode is in fact sponsored by and just
like that, but this is not part of that sponsorship.
We decided to do this of.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Our own accord.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
They don't know we're doing it, they don't have any
say in what we say.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
We might have just realized that it was sponsored by
and just like that, we'll.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Carry we'll carry thing. This is very much. We want
to talk about it because it's part of the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
So it comes thinking I couldn't have interest.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
We need to talk about the lickic We do because
it's really the only way to describe a very particular
scene in the new season, Evan, just like that. It
happened in episode one, which is the fallo up to
Sex and City side note, why can't it just be
called Sex and the City? I still don't understand.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Because it's a new universe. Maya have you not listened
to Daddy Michael Patrick King. It's a new show, it's
a new era, it's.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
A new time. Get with it, Get with it, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So we have done another episode that we dropped on
the weekend where we recap episode one.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That's not what this is.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Because in case you haven't got around to watching it
on Max. The lickic happens during a phone sex scene
between Carrie in her enormous New New York apartment and
her honor.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Would we call an apartment or would we call it
a Max? It's like a two story.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I know they keep calling it a Brownstone or an apartment.
I don't know how new it works. Her on off
love Interest is Aiden. He is sitting in his car
in a field in Virginia with a beer and his
hand down his pants. Here's a little bit about how
it sounded.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
Touch yourself, Okhea, touch yourself?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Be me from me?
Speaker 6 (09:12):
Are you touching yourself?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
This is just I can't I actually can't listen. He
licks his hand.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Can we talk about the licking of the hand?
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Make sure?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Okay? Because I how much work this? Get spent the
weekend asking men I know about the licking because I
didn't know that we licked our hand. I didn't know
that that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Didn't you hang out with your family?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I did, And I don't understand because I was like
the men u's lube. Why did he need to lick
his hand in order to do that?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Surely you can work it out this is why very
often hand cream the bed before we leave.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Woman explained it, what did the men in your life
tell you?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
One man in my life said, I don't know, I
don't understand, and I was like, okay, so I don't
I don't know if this is a very personal thing
that's going on, but it was the grunting for me.
It was definitely the lick of the hand so bad.
And it was I said in that episode that we
recorded about and just like that, that I find aiden
deeply on sexy. So that contributed to Mike.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I've always found him a bit soft. He's not my
type of person. And look, I think it's safe to
say a new level of ick was unlocked in that
scene and by this episode.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It's so funny because when we recorded our and just
like that recap, we were lucky enough to watch the
episodes a little bit early, and we hadn't seen the
public reaction to episode one yet, but it was very.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Similar to ours, yes.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Which was like what yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And I did listen to what Michael Patrick King had
to say about it, and he said he wanted to
push aid and then carry to places that hadn't been before.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Which is difficult because I've been to a lot of places.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That Carrie has never really done the dirty talk in
that way before, and it was a whole new thing,
and I was like, do we have to break new
ground at this point?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Do we have to?
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Well? The sound you can hear is the sound of
millions of women's legs just snapping shut. Yes, and their
vagina's shriveling up into deserts. Even thinking about that scene,
but scene aside, group chats and social and out louders
in all the groups and all the places, you're all
popping off with opinions about the show. It's cringe, it's fabulous, We're.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Appalled by the carrots, cringe and fabulous.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
We're delighted to spend time with them again.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
All of the about it's terrible. I can't wait for
next week.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, why do you think it's so polarizing?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think you know, we've talked a lot about how
much we love these women and we love spending time
with them, but there is nothing they could ever do
that would make us happy. Because when you've got literally
twenty years of history with somebody, you've got a lot
of opinions about how they should behave. But I think
that despite everybody's varied opinions about this, this season is
going to be a hit because, without question, what we
(11:55):
are all in the mood for is some silly fun
look at a lot of the shows, with a few
very notable exceptions, like Adolescents, a lot of the big
shows in the last year have been fluffy, what we
would call fluffy. So even if they do have a
bit of darkness in them, they've been very camp, very colorful,
very funny. So I think White Loaders think the perfect couple,
(12:16):
think Sirens, which is what everybody's watching. Even I inhaled
that running point with Kate Hudson in it, I acknowledge
when I recommended it that I didn't necessarily think it
was particularly high quality, but it was exactly what I
was in the mood for. And I think there's two
things about this. One is, you know, there's no question
the world is dark and all of those things. Politics
(12:37):
is a very dangerous place to go at the moment,
particularly in America. Everybody's talking about polarization and how let's
just all talk about something else. You know, they even
cut some politics from White Loadus. Remember that, Yeah, they
got rid of a storyline about one of the characters
having a trans child, because I think that at the moment,
everybody's going we don't want to talk about anything serious.
(12:58):
We just want to watch the.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Beautiful houses have a laugh.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Argue about Aiden's penis is disgusting, why we should have
licked his hand, and where that.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Carry's hat is abs urge like that seems like a
safe thing.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Toot a bonnet. I just need to think about a
bonnet for a little while. I think it is the
re emergence of camp and this sort of nineties sensibility,
because there's also the rewatch phenomenon, and it's like going
back to your childhood home in a way where it
was simpler and when you were different. Going back to
these characters reminds me of who I was when I
(13:32):
watched it for the first time. And I was scrolling
the other day and there was a clip from the
show Felicity. Remember the show Felicity. I hadn't thought about
that in years, and I thought, oh, I'd love to
go back and watch that. Even the way it was
filmed it was so much softer. It was almost blurrier.
There was no high definition. The camera panning was different,
and I thought, Oh, that would be such a reprieve
(13:53):
to go back and watch that kind of comfort viewing.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Do you think it's also second screening. Every so often
the characters sort of re mention the plot, like restate
what's happening, almost like daytime soaps, you know that exactly
reality TV shows. And that's to account for the fact
that people are sort of looking at their phones and
then they'll look up and they still need to be
able to be following what's going along.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Yeah, and also you can predict what the next sentence is.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Like.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
There are no surprises. Obviously there was big in the
first season, but other than that, there's not been any
high stake surprises. And I know that I.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Didn't think ROUNDA was going to fuck it out.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
I wouldn't have had that on my big coat. Yeah,
but like it didn't change my week, you know, yeah, right,
and it changed my week. But there are two things
going on for the worst. You're right, there's like this
campy fluff. But then I think, if we're so fair
to call.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It fluff, that feels dismissive.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Okay, but I like fluff, so I don't think fluff
is dismissive. I think there's a place for everything. I mean,
people have never watched as many documentaries as they have
since streaming. Right, If you want to go and watch
something incredibly smart in depth, that's what Jesse is doing.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Yeah, I watch the documentary true crime.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Stuff, true crime stuff, anything you want about climate change,
about the state of the prison system, about anything you want.
It's there for you, right, And I think that's great.
But also I think there's a growing feeling of like,
when I just want to turn my brain off, it
doesn't mean it's bad, it doesn't mean it's terrible.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
For those Every producer, publisher, everyone I speak to says,
the thing we're looking for right now are rom coms.
That's what everyone has been wanting for the last two years.
That's what they're seeking. On the other hand, though, let's
be honest about the biggest shows of twenty twenty five,
because it's adolescence. As you said, it's severance, it's the pit.
The Handmaid's Tail has just wrapped up. Even the White Lotus,
(15:41):
there was some darkness to that, like there is this
other side, which is like this prestige dark television that
is grappling with the intensity of our.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Top I think I agree, but I also think that
Prestige TV doesn't have to be dark, right, which is
what White loatus. I mean, it's always dealt with dark things.
It's a murder show from its first season, but it
does it in quite a light way, right, And I
think you're right, of course with adolescents and those shows,
but I think, I don't know. I think there's a
mood shift and it's to do with playing it safe
(16:13):
a little bit, but you can those shows can still
be high quality.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I heard it described Sirens and then just like that
as affluence porn because there's one perfect couple with definitely yeah,
because there's this self consciousness to obviously the White Lotus,
which is all about let's hate on rich people, but
this is almost like unashamed look at the bonnet, look
at the match, and look at her do this up.
I guess that's what selling Sunset is as well. It's
(16:38):
just like this escapism and maybe there's some aspiration behind.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Your recession indicator as well. Yep, Like the harder things
are in people's real lives, the more they want to escape,
and like little luxuries and little indulgences.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
In a moment, did Debory Furness do angry women everywhere
a favor by putting Hugh Jackman on blast. Remember last
week we did a quick update on Hugh Jackman and
Debory Furnas's divorced. You remember that, Yeah, because it's just
been an ounced that they were finally divorced, that it.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Was done, and she released that statement to Daily Mail
and when we recorded, it seemed so out of character. Yeah,
and we actually didn't know if it was real or not,
so we were sort of a bit We're not quite sure.
Surely she didn't say this because it was quite raw.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
She did say that, So just a quick recap on
what she said was, among other things, my heart and
compassion goes out to anyone who has traversed the traumatic
journey of betrayal. It is a profound wound that cuts deep.
Debraly Finnis definitely did say that it's the first time
she's come out since they're split, which is over a
year ago, two years ago, I think, and confirmed what
(17:47):
lots of people have been talking about, which is that
she at least feels very betrayed by what happened and
he's now repartnered. And then Jesse shared something in our
group chat. That was Hugh's response that went completely over
my head. Please explain, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
So, I was just minding my own business on Friday,
doing a little scroll and I see Hugh Jackman doing
a love little dance on Instagram, like with ski I
love few Jackman doing a little dance. So I turned
it on and watched and he was dancing to Bye
Bye Bye by n Sync, which was all about farewelling
a partner. And then I looked at a nice fashion
(18:23):
not in a nice way. I looked at the caption
which was just in capitals the word finally, and I
put it in our grip chat and I said, guys,
have we seen this? And Holly was like, he's so
good at skipping.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Because that's a little quip from his one man show
that he's not doing anymore. But then he didn't release.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
At the time, I thought it was a flex of like,
look how fit I am, because skipping's really hard.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I've tried it. It wasn't about skipping, hollywhen right, sorry,
it was shade.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
It was about saying finally bye bye to my ex wife.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
So the reaction since has been mixed, and the reason
we want to talk about it again.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
How did you feel about that when you.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I was like petty, Hugh, very petty. I think sometimes
if you're the one who's been called out, well, I
guess you make a decision. But it would have been
classic shut up, right, will Yeah. But then that's what
this conversations about, right, because that's how some people feel
about what Debraley said. Some people are like, oh, much
classier to keep your mouth shut. And then I read
this article by Kate Halfpenny in the Nine Papers on
(19:24):
the weekend that argued in defense of women not having
to play nice all the time when they're on the
end of a particularly nasty betrayal. She wrote, without taking
sides on the ethics of a marriage, I basically know
nothing about. Here's why I am applauding what Furness's move
stands for. Back to the honesty First, she reminded us,
you don't have to keep smiling when someone blows up
(19:44):
your life. You don't owe anyone a soft landing for
decisions they made, or have to perform gratitude for the
privilege of being abandoned. She reminded us, you don't need
to prioritize everyone else's comfort over what you're busting to say,
even if sometimes admitting life sucks feels risky. What do
we think about that? Do we think that a woman scorned,
(20:06):
which is, you know, the cliche, has kind of been
given a bit of permission by what Debraly said.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I liked her point that you don't have to keep
smiling when someone blows up your life and you are
allowed to leave your wife for someone else. That is
not against the law, right, but that person that you
left gets to have a feeling about it and gets
to express that if they want. And I think what
(20:33):
I felt about the Hugh Jackman response, which perhaps it
was just a very poorly timed ode tenC. Finally what, well,
finally he's done of it.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Finally, Yes, there's no good intention interpretation.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And that's the thing is you can make that decision,
but then you don't get to be shady about it.
I reckon that Deborah or whatever then gets to have
the last word, and then we let it lie. There
was something. So we don't know what happened in their marriage.
We don't know what happened or how.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
It's been since. But then in terms of decided.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
To leave, I think Deborah le Furness owned it, and
she said what she meant. I think what was difficult
about the Hugh Jackman thing is that it was slightly obscure,
which felt less honest.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I think it felt like Debrelee was punching up and
it felt like Hugh Jackman was punching down in that instance.
Of course, the most famous betrayal, you know that would
be an analog comparison would be when Jennifer Aniston was
left by Brad Pitt for Angelina Jolie, who was the
co star in his movie Mister and Missus Smith.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
The subject of my thesis.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yes, and so, just like about a month or so
after they had announced their split and the world had
learned through paparazzi photos that Brad and Angelina were in
fact a couple. They posed for as part of the
publicity for Mister and Missus Smith. They posed for the
cover of w magazine and it was like this sort
of set as if they were this couple. There were
(22:01):
like six babies and it was like them. Remember that
magazine pitched in my brain. One of the photos was
them with six babies, as if it was fairly precientt
but as if it was that that was their family,
and they were played a couple in this photoshoot. And
in her first interview in Vanity Fair, Jennifer Aniston was
asked about it, and the whole world was waiting to
see how she would handle this most public betrayal, and
(22:25):
I remember exactly what she said of him. She said,
I feel like he's missing a sensitivity chip. Yeah, And
then she also said about Angelina Jolie something about it
being not cool, and that was that was as much
as she said ever.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Ever, So I read this story over the weekend about anger,
women's anger, and it was an interview with a woman
named doctor Jennifer Cox who's written this book about female anger,
and she says that it presents differently in different women.
For some it's like a slow, bubbling sensation, and for
others it is like a hot iron and it hits
(23:03):
them really really fast. Right, And then she said that
there are five different anger personalities that women have. The
first is the internalized, So you keep it inside and
you think that expressing it would be really impolite, and
the impacts of that on your physical health have been proven,
so for us, I think it is too and so
you just kind of suppress, suppressuppress. Then you've got the reactor.
(23:25):
She has been labeled a Karen. You snap, so you
react in the moment, which isn't ideal either, sobolutely the
denier And that means and maybe I relate most with this,
the denier. You don't even know you're angry. You label
it something else, You label it sad, you label it worried.
The displacer. I think a lot of women will relate
with this. You absorb the anger from your boss being
(23:46):
a dickhead to you, and then you go home and
take it out on your husband. You displace the anger
in your life. And the last one is the embracer,
and that's what we should all be aiming for. And
to be an embracer is too sometimes like decide whether
or not you're going to express it, but acknowledge that
anger is a thing that actually isn't a negative emotion.
The reason why you get a rise in adrenaline and
(24:08):
cortisola is because your body is saying there is something
in this situation that needs to change. So it's giving
you the energy to go to say something propulsive. Yeah,
exactly right. It's actually a really positive thing and so
I thought with Deborah Lee that you decide whether you're
going to do something with the anger or whether you're
going to sit with it, and sometimes it's better for
you to do something with it.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, but Debra isn't just us right as in that
she knew that that statement was going to make headlines
around the world and was going to change forever the
way everybody looks at Hugh Jackman and his new relationship.
So it was a very specific grenade to throw. And
I'm not saying whether or not she should have done it,
but it's you know, one of the things that Kate
(24:48):
Halfpenny says in that is she said it was very
strategic to wait this long, and so in a way
that was really smart, because you know, revenge is a
dish best of cold, all of that's.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
They were negotiating and.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Then throw them and then throw the grenade. But it
was a very emotional statement. It's interesting because you know,
every expert on divorce ever will say if there are
children involved, it's absolutely critical to never criticize the other person.
But also, what is it like, Well, I know what
it's like for people who are always around everybody.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Pretending everything's fine.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
When it's really not fine, particularly for women, particularly for
that sort of buttoned up lip. I'm not going to
criticize him even though he's doing X y Z. Is
that always the best policy? I don't think it is.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
You know, it's certainly cut through in this age of
celebrity split announcements that are like.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
We've never loved each other more, we are best friends
too much, very much love.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
We just need to split it, to be honest, That's
where they started, right Like, when they first announced that split,
it was like that, and it's like finally now, I
think perhaps, and also before while it was all still
playing nice. Often in splits, it takes a long time
for everything to settle out and then you're like.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Right, yeah, after the break the book deal that people
are not happy about out loud As.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
If you want to listen to us every day of
the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on
Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
By becoming a Mum and mea subscriber.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and
support us, and a big thank you to all our
current subscribers.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Have you two seen the story about the TikToker Luke
Bateman who got a book deal. No, you've missed it.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I have seen him a little bit. I saw him
interviewed on TV a while ago. He is correct me
if I'm wrong, A handsome, wholesome, countryish dude who talks
about romantic books in this tractor.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Is that correct? Absolutely?
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
So Australian. Oh, Australian.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Australian.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
So this is what happened. Luke Bateman, he's thirty years
old and he used to play for the NRL team,
the Camber Raiders, so as an NRL player. Then a
couple of years ago he was on The Bachelor and
he made the top three or something, so he had
a little bit of a platform. But then in April
of this year he started doing this thing on TikTok.
He has an account called Luke Reads where he would
(27:15):
read fantasy smut. He also shares like book reviews and
he talks about his love fantasy novels. He's just a
little bit of a taste of the kind of content
that he creates.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
These six books are my six god tear fantasy books.
These are the books that are just hedgeh holders above
everything else for me, and the books of you know,
made me yell, they've made me cry. They're let me
with the biggest bookangos I've ever had in my life.
I can't wait to share them with you. Starting out
with book number six, Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hope.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Holly is someone who is in the book industry genius. Uh,
fantasy is where.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
It's at, huge, romantic fantasy and sexiest fantasy as we're
calling it, the Court of Thorn Rose's series. All of
those are the biggest selling books by about a bajillion
mile exactly. So absolute genius for a handsome, straight Aussie
bloke to be sitting in a tractor talking about that stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Genius. It's not what you would expect.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's not what you would expect. But I think he
genuinely really likes these fantasy books. And he would also
provide he do kind of book reviews, and he would
do recommendations and all that kind of stuff. And in
a matter of weeks he amassed one hundred and seventy
thousand followers, so he blew.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Up and lots of his videos have had millions of views.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And so what he just talks about the books that
he's reading.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So it's like a book talk account right, But then
came the announcement. Here is what Luke told his followers all.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Book talk, I just wanted to share some incredible news
with you. Or I've just signed a two book deal
with Atria and Simon s Australia. This is a childhood
dream come true for me. I've wonder be an author
of my whole life. So it really blows me away.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So what is he going to write books now? Yes?
So he signed a two book deal for a fantasy
series that he hasn't written yet.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Can he write? Well, we know he can read.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We don't know that yet, but he.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Says it came.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
He says he can.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Someone else can write it. Anyway, you guys write out,
we can look.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
While some were excited for Luke, there were others that
it inspired a flurry of think pieces, of opinions, of
videos and comments about how the publishing industry is broken
and how white men full upwards. Here's a little sense
of what the reaction was.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
The worst thing you could have done was hop up
on TikTok and tell everybody that you signed a two
book deal and you haven't even wrote a manuscript. And
I want you to know this is not me coming
for your neck. I want to be honest, because you're
about to see a shift. If you haven't already in
the last twenty four to forty eight hours, you're going
to see a major shift. The following you had is
(29:51):
not going to be the following you continue to have.
You stepped on a lot of people's next to get
a two book deal. Whether it was your intention or not,
it doesn't matter. I frankly don't think you deserve a
two book deal. There are too many minorities, too many
women who are out here fighting daily to try to
get what you just got handed to you.
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Are you met about the Luke Bateman deal, because that's nothing.
I was working at a big five publisher when this
guy got a deal that he got a five hundred
thousand dollar book deal because his wife was famous.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
The Australian publishing scene, Luke's Australian. The Australian publishing scene
is a lot smaller than the UK and the US,
to the extent that Australian publishers get really excited about
Australian book creators, and so the Australian publishers have probably
seen Luke come on to book talk make a bit
(30:49):
of a following for himself, the build off of the
fact that he's already a celebrity and have gone like, oh,
we hear that you're writing a book. Can we talk
about it?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
And he's obviously not going to say no, this is wild.
This seems exactly like what happened to Glennon Doyle when
she launched a paid newsletter on Sepstack. First of all,
what do they think the book industry is? Do they
think it's a charity because it's not. It's a business.
And secondly, what do they want him to say, No,
don't give this book deal to.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Me, give it to other people. I would assume that
he wrote some sort of proposal, like I probably believe
that they reached out to him and said you had
a book in the works, and they would have reached
out to him, and they do that all the time.
They do that all the time, right, And look, he's responded.
He has said he's speaking to people from marginalized groups
to see how he can also uplift their work and
he understands why some people feel let down by the industry.
(31:40):
Holly is a criticism towards Luke and more broadly, the
publishing industry fair.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, the book industry isn't fair. It is absolutely true
that you could be the world's most gifted writer and
the person who's got a million TikTok followers is going
to get a book dealer over you. It's just true, right,
And the reason for that, and the last voice we
heard there hit the nail on the head. The book industry,
particularly in Australia, is small. It is not that profitable.
(32:08):
Publishers themselves do not have boundless budgets. And the whole
point of why they get excited about creators and writers
who have followings is because it does nearly all their
marketing work for them.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
So you know, obviously I'm a writer, you're a writer.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
We're all writers at this table.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I know that I have a massive head start because
I have a following in terms of when I publish
a book. There is no question. I absolutely acknowledge that.
And that is attractive to a publishing house because otherwise
you're trying to get your book out in a tiny market,
in an increasingly chaotic and crowded publicity space. You know,
once upon a time, get it in the book pages
(32:47):
of the Woman's Weekly, get it in the literary pages
of the broadsheet newspapers, and those things still all exist,
but their influence is shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and
shrunk and shrunk. So the places that people find out
about books is social media, just like it's the place
they find out a bout everything else. TV shows, makeup music,
all of those things, movies, and so if you've got
a creator who's got a following, half of that work
(33:08):
has already done, so that is obviously more attractive to
the publishing industry. Does that mean they'll publish any old
nonsense if you've got a following, Well no, because people
still have to want to buy it. And the most
successful books are the ones that people buy, read love,
and the word of mouth builds, and it will build
on social media as well as it will build elsewhere.
(33:29):
And there are countless examples of books from people who
don't have followings becoming hits. But it's a sure of
fire bet for a publishing house to start with someone
with a following, right. The thing is is it's not
a guarantee. I was looking at an author the other
day and she was sort of berating her audience, almost saying,
I've recently published a book, and I've got my book
(33:50):
scan sales and they're not very much because you need
to be really clear. In Australia, again, small market, not
that many people buy books anymore, ever, shrinking market in
a way because of all the competition for our attention.
So if you sell a thousand books, you're doing well.
If you sell five thousand books, you're an absolute bestseller.
And this author was saying, I know what my book
scan numbers are, and I know what my audience is,
(34:12):
and if all of you had bought a book, I
would be a best seller. But you haven't all bought
a book. Go and by a book, and that's not
how it works. So it's great to have a following.
It gives you a massive leg up in your promotion,
no question. But he isn't always going to translate the
point of this criticism though, And there is a validity here,
of course, is that does Luke Bateman, and maybe he's
(34:35):
a great writer. And I love anyone who's encouraging people
to read books, and particularly if they're young men. I
think that's fantastic because and few young people are reading books,
and I think we could all agree that they should
does he get a book deal at the expense of
someone else, because that is what is being suggested here,
that there's only so much pie that it's.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Actually the other way around. So if he sells a
million books, that means that the publishers will have more
money to take some risks on new undiscovered authors. What
hits me about this every time is the sense of entitlement.
Nobody's entitled to a book deal or a newsletter following.
(35:14):
It's a bit like saying to Nicole Kidman, you don't
need the money. You're really famous, So next time you're
off at a movie. There are so many actors who
want to be successful and would like to be in
a movie, you should step aside. But the thing is
that it doesn't work that way. It's not like someone
takes the money that was going to be paid to
Nicole Kidman and one hundred unemployed actors get that money.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
It's just not how it works. I suppose what I
can feel people saying, which I think is probably fair. Right,
we can all agree that having a platform, whether it's
on and BookTok, is its whole other discussion because BookTok
has its power that even Instagram doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Anymore, and it's harder to game.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's harder to game, right, So I can understand them going,
oh my god, what BookTalk is so the biggest books
of the last few years. Colleen Hoover is the best
example have been born of BookTok It has happened rather organically,
of people picking up Colleen Hoover, who never sold, was
not a bestseller, and when this book really good and
next minute she has dominated the charts for years.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
So it wasn't a mark, to be clear, it wasn't
a marketing thing that she or a publishing company said,
I'm going to go on BookTalk and try to be famous.
It happened organically exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
But what I appreciate at a time when platforms matter
more than ever is if you are in a marginalized group,
if you are Indigenous, if you are black, if you
feel like you're in a marginalized group, who the algorithm
doesn't reward. And this is what I've heard a lot
of people talk about this that if you look at
(36:44):
the biggest influences in Australia, they do all happen to
be white. So the algorithm loves pretty white women. Yeah,
so pretty white women build a platform and then what
comes from that platform is a lot of wealth and opportunity.
So I can understand how it might feel if you're going,
I'm trying to get that platform, but they're.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Angry at the wrong guy. Like we're all living in
this attention economy, which we all hate, like to be clear,
except my the Kardashians, who it's working for, But we
all live in this world not by choice.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
It is just the world.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
To attack this guy forgetting a book deal because he
organically went and that was not a popular thing to do,
Like I don't think about.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
What I struggle with is when I see comments and
commentary of people saying things that are just blatantly untrue
because they don't actually understand how the publishing industry works.
For example, no one gets a book deal without a manuscript.
That is just underrue.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Every prime minister, every sporting cat.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Again, Holly and I and you mea all acknowledge our
privilege in this space. We are not the average author
in Australia, but we got a book deal off a
proposal and we're not alone in that. If you work
in media, if Margo Robbie said to this publisher, I
think I've got a book on me. They would sign
her tomorrow. She doesn't have to prove her chops in
that they would make that work.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
The other thing that I think is always worth mentioning
about this because book world loves a bit of a
blow up like this. It's almost like we think that
book one thing, you know what I mean, Like we're
comparing cookbooks and memoirs and romanticy with literary fiction and
historical memoir and like they're not, you know what I mean.
(38:21):
Books are many, many things. And the book that Luke
Bateman is probably going to write and I don't know,
but like I'm imagining, is probably not the book that
an unknown author who's desperately trying to get a book
deal from somewhere is trying to get. Like just because
it's called a book and it looks like a book
and it smells like a book, it's a million different things.
(38:43):
You can't argue that, you know, sort of a beauty
book is the same thing as orbital, you know what
I mean, And yet they're all books. It's kind of
a strange argument that this is taking from that.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
I think this probably represents people's frustration with TikTok more broadly,
but also if you are a brilliant writer who is
trying to get a book deal in Australia, I think
every publishing house would agree that it's really, really hard,
and that the gate keepers of even getting into that
house feels near impossible. Like I have people message me
all the time and say how do I get my
(39:16):
book in front of people? And it is so bloody hard.
And so when you see someone who's done a few
weeks of work on TikTok, I can totally understand that frustrately.
Good Wednesday morning, I'm Olivia Jeequi.
Speaker 7 (39:28):
And I'm Julia Dunn. We do have some breaking news
this morning. Literally Olivia's water has broke, okay, and she
is anchoring the news now in active labor.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Early labor, early labor.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
We've been doing the contract. She's now, you know, timing
her contract. I'm going to pay a question two minutes apart.
Speaker 8 (39:46):
No, well there was one, but it's been a few
minutes since then.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
So we're still on good.
Speaker 7 (39:50):
She her decision to stay on the desk.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Look at what it says days past two dates.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Oh there we go, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 7 (39:56):
So we're thinking I'm to be here and I'll stay
on the desk for as long as I possibly can't that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Right, this is upping a bucket to studio too.
Speaker 6 (40:04):
Please.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I can just feel mea being like well, Jesse knocked
off a bit early exactly when I went and had
my baby.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
That was news anchor Olivia Jaqui and her co host
Julie Done. They were hosting the local CBS news in Albany,
New York, last week, right, and Olivia was two days
overdue with her first child. Now what you heard there
was obviously Julie filling us in on what was going
on with Olivia and Olivia choosing to stay. She stayed
(40:30):
on the show from that bit you just heard for
three hours, three hours after her she did the whole
three hour session. She kept coming back after the break.
And what I loved is that Julie, who is also pregnant, FYI,
Julie was there going.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Olivia's chosen to be here.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Olivia would like to stay on the desk. Olivia wants
to stay. Olivia was tied to the desk by her employer.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Just to be clear, it's not a work life balance issue.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
And when the broadcast finished after three hours, Olivia went
to the hospital with her husband and her baby boy,
Quincy was born less than twenty four hours later. Now,
what I love about that, as well as the fact
that Julie kept having to tell everybody that Olivia was
not being held against her well, is how quietly defensive
that story makes a lot of women who've had a
baby right where they're like, exactly, They're like.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
I went to the hospital. Was I supposed to finish
my shift? The first thing I thought was like, are
you mentioned go to the hospital when your water breaks?
And then I needed to desperately know if this was
her first baby, because I thought, this is the behavior
of a woman who's had too and is like.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I've never had my waters break in the wild. I've
always wanted it to because I like the idea of
the drama.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
So life Hack. One of my very close friends had
her water's break during a pregnancy massage, and she got
the massage for free and in charge of Oh really.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Very good Live Hack.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
I know you have to go through a lot to
get massage, but hey, that's all we have time for today.
We are settling in nicely to our new studios. If
you want to know what they look like, come and
see us on Instagram or YouTube or on YouTube where
segments of our show are up for you all to watch.
Our studios are styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
You can visit them at Fenton and Fenton dot com
(42:09):
dot A you.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
And a big thank you to all the out louders
for listening to the show and our fabulous team for
putting the show together. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
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