October 9, 2025 • 43 mins
There's a new celebrity boyfriend doing the rounds and everyone from Jennifer Aniston to Princess Martha Louise of Norway (a royal rebel if ever there was one) are here to confirm that the spiritual-softboi era is officially here. Holly has a precise theory as to why.
And Jessie poses a provocative question to both Holly and Mamamia's Editor, Stacey Hicks: is anti-natalism (aka choosing not to have kids for ethical reasons) gaining traction for a reason?
Plus, we've had 'job hopping' and 'quiet quitting' but it's 'job hugging' that's the latest workplace trend — and no, it's not as cosy as it sounds. There are pros, there are cons and someone's missing out bigtime. Stacey explains.
And in recommendations:
-
A criminally underrated TV show that's perfect for weekend viewing
-
A podcast that’s anything but average
-
And a cult-fave hair product Jessie didn’t want to love... but does.
Support independent women's media
Recommendations
Stacey recommends Shrinking on Apple TV
Jessie recommends Bedroom Hair texture spray by Kevin Murphy
Holly recommends Dr Stacey Sims on the MID podcast.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: The Problem With Compliments
- Listen: The Couple Who Need To Stay Away From Each Other
- Listen: LITTLE TREAT: Holly & Jessie Spill The Tea On Writing A Book
- Listen: Why No One's Having Sex In Bed Anymore
- Listen: Decoding The Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban Divorce Narrative
- Listen: Vanessa Amorosi, Emma Watson & The Problem When Kids Earn More Than Their Parents
- Listen: Victoria Beckham’s Version & Jessie’s Very Big News
- Listen: “Tough It Out”. The Announcement That Upset Us More Than We Expected
Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the very latest episode of Parenting Out Loud, the parenting podcast for people who don't listen to... parenting podcasts.
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- Here's everything we know about Jennifer Aniston's boyfriend... presented without comment.
- Looking for a job change? These are 2025's most in-demand jobs that have the highest salary.
- You've probably heard the new term "quiet quitting". It's bullsh*t.
- Why everyone is a bit woo woo right now.
- 'I'm sick of f
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, and welcome
to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually
talking about on Friday, the tenth of October. That's shouting
them was a little boo, wasn't. I'm sorry, out louders.
If that like really, I'll startled you. I'm Holly Wayne Wright.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I am Stacy Hicks feeling in
for em Vernon. You might have heard me on Parenting
out Loud, which drops every Saturday.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
And here's what's made our agenda for today. There's an
actual princess married to a shaman and a generation ex
princess whose new boyfriend is a dead set manifesting guru.
Is Woo Woo dude the new status celebrity boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Plus there's a very convincing case for opening a joint
bank account with your friends.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And the essay that made me wonder if having kids
is morally wrong. I am desperately going to try and
launch a defense I haven't quite worked out yet. But first,
in case you missed it, people are no longer job
hopping their job hugging. According to recent research from Bold
hr SO, job hugging is when an employee stays in
(01:23):
a role even if they're unhappy or they're finding the
role unfulfilling, they clutch on for dear. Life and workplace
expert Rebecca Horton says leaders should be really worried about this, like,
this isn't a good thing because it's driven by risk aversion,
economic anxiety, and a lot of it is to do
with fear of AI. People are feeling unstable within their
(01:46):
industries and they're going got a hold on here. It
makes people really burnt out. She says. Everyone is tired
and it can be a workplace nightmare because these people
are disengaged. That can impact productivity. Experts worn as well
that these types of employees aren't loyal, like, don't confuse
job hugging for loyalty, because the second the job market changes,
(02:08):
they're all out.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Once.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Remember just after COVID, when it kind of there was
the post COVID flush and suddenly the job hopping thing
was big. It was like yes, everybody was like I'm
living my best life now I've learned what matters to me,
and I'm going to jump jump jump jump jump around
and now we're all like, rah, the robots are coming
and we're like, I'm holding.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
On for dear life.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, And I felt like the golden number was like
two years. Remember, like you never really stayed in a
place for more than two years. That's what we were told.
You had to go to the next, go to the next,
keep increasing.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
And it was a lot of people were leaving jobs
without another job lined up, which I was always in
awe of because it's like they just went, I will
jump in the Paris figure it out. Yeah, something will
will help.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
The thing about hugging, So the term job hugging, and
I understand the fact that this can be a negative
thing because you know, if you are over where you work,
it's better leave, let's be honest, Or you're over the
job you're doing there better from everyone that you leave,
even though employers would like you to stay longer than
two years, ideally because a lot of investment goes into
finding you, training you, et cetera. But job hugging, if
(03:12):
that hug is real and it comes with love and
kisses and you really love it, then sure hug the job, right,
But it's if the hug is fake and you're keeping
your groins away exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, So this is how you can tell some people
realize the job. My dad has been doing the same
job for something like thirty years.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, right, it's great if it's not broke.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's not exactly huge hug it tight take that money.
But there was a psychologist interviewed in this article, and
she said, if you get a lot of anxiety on
a Sunday night, if you're irritable, if you are bored,
and if you feel trapped, then they're all signs that
you're hugging rather than just happy with where you are.
(03:52):
Are you guys noticing this even among friends and stuff?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think so. But I have a theory that it's
not because of stability. I feel like it's flexibility that
people are holding on to, because you know how if
you just started a job, you couldn't go in on
the first day and say, oh, do you mind if
I work from home because I've got a doctor's appointment
at two pm. I'm good for it, Like you have
to kind of earn the good will for flexibility. So true.
So I think if you're in a position where you
have that you're trusted, then you go, well, I'm onto
(04:17):
a good thing here, so I'm not going to move
somewhere else where. I've got to prove myself first.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
And apparently all the stats say as well that job
mobility is down, like people aren't going yeah, like they
genuinely aren't hopping. That's just I think all over the world.
And that's because of you know, the economic climate right now.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
But that makes sense about the flexibility because obviously there's
been a big pushback into the office because at different
points in your career, different things are important to you.
Sometimes you'll take flexibility over more money. Sometimes you'll take
extra holiday days, et cetera. And other times you're just like,
absolutely not. It's all about the dollar dollar bills. I mean,
it's always about the dollar dollar bills. But you know
what I mean. So, if you've got a young family
and stuff, flexibilit it's very important. If you have been
(04:55):
somewhere where you know you've agreed two days in, three
days out or whatever, and then you're like, I know,
if I jump, they'll use it as not an excuse
but a reason to go five days in.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
You're like, huh, yeah, you'd have to negotiate that all
over again.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So a few years ago they were talking about quiet
quitting and there was bare minimum Monday, and acting your
wage was the other thing. And I was reading all
of those and I was like, I think they're totally
compatible with job hugging. I think you can do all
of those things without leaving your job. Lots of these
people have probably quietly quit, but sometimes you just got
(05:31):
to work for the money.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Okay, I've got a theory, but before I explain the
theory to you, I need to start with a bit
of a recommendation. Okay, have either of you two watched
The Royal Rebels on Netflix? No, I'm offended. I've been
telling you that the word royal in it. I've been
telling Jess to watch it four weeks so I've offended.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
But I started Slow Horses. Has anyone watched Slow Horn?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Amazing? Did you start at season one? I did, mate,
It's one of the best things on TV.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, there's a bonus recommendation there, you go.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Some of my recommendations are good tough, all right, So
what The Royal Rebels is. It's one of those PR
documentaries that we talked about the other week procumentaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh so like David Beckham's.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, it's like a movie length documentary made directed by
the person who won an Emmy for doing Tiger King.
So very very classy, well made docco but made one
hundred percent with the cooperation of the royals in question
and the royals in question. It's about a Norwegian princess,
so she's not first in line, so she's a bit
like Prince Harry, and that she could be the more
(06:34):
rebellious one right, called Marta Louise, And it follows the
lead up to her second marriage to a shaman called
Dorik Veret Holly.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
This is probably something I should know by this age,
But what is a no?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Please? I have been dying telling you. So a shaman
is a spiritual practitioner, so like also could be a
priest or a priestess not in the traditional religious sense, right,
who might counsel, might preach often enters and you see
Derek doing this during the show, like an altered state
of consciousness while doing it right to communicate with the
(07:10):
spirit world and pulled you through whatever problems you've got.
They claim sometimes that they can heal the sick, they
can manifest they can guide souls. And he of course direct,
which he makes him all the more fun. Direct veric
he's called is a Hollywood sharman, and among his clients
in the past have been my friend Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Of course, is Derek White.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
No, so Drek is from California, so he's American, but
he is a man of color. He says that his
heritage includes Haitian African Native American, so a mixture, but
he is a man of color. And he was the
first black man to marry into a European royal family,
so he's a sharman. He also is this is just
relevant in terms of how much he stirred the pot
(07:53):
in the European royal world, not in any other way.
And he is also not straight. He has in the
past stated guys and now he describes himself as a
soul sexual. And he also talks very openly about that
he's attracted to people's souls and the person whose soul
he was attracted to that's made him the subse this
documentary is our mate, Marta Luise. She is a grown
(08:14):
up lady. She's got three kids from her first marriage,
all of whom are delightful and are also in this
they're like young adults. Now what you get from this
documentary is they are both kind of eccentric, free spirits,
but they are lovely. She is lovely, like just the
loveliest right. But she herself has always been a big searcher,
so she all through her life obviously she had loads
(08:37):
of press on her in Norway, just like all the
royals do in their home countries. And she's always been
the rebel, so she's always explored alternative therapies. She's got
an angel healing clinic. I don't know what that is,
but anyway, this doco is great because it basically follows them.
They've been dating now since twenty eighteen, so quite a
long time. It follows them as they decide to get
(08:58):
married and get married, and it's got all the really
juicy ingredients. Basically, Martin Luise is like, let's just have
a quiet little wedding and directs like absolutely not. He's like,
if I'm going to be the first black man to
marry into and Ryalty, I want all the bells and whistles,
hyper visibility, Like why not? Right, So they have this big,
fancy wedding at one point, the King of Norway has
to come out and make a statement because the press,
(09:19):
of course are horribly racist against him and also suggesting
that he's blackmailing her, that there's something really dodgy about him.
And the King of Norway comes out at one point
and issues a statement to the press telling the multiple
the heads in and that they are being racist. This
was all happening around the same time as Harry and Meggs,
and Harry actually called out that statement a one time
and said, I wish my family would do this, but
they won't. Really, so this was all going on at
(09:42):
the same time. Okay, but it's really good doco and
I couldn'tcommend it enough. But it's also very interesting, which
leads me to my theory in that watching this woman
who could pretty much have dated anyone in the world
right in terms of the fact she's got status, she's
got money, she's charismatic, attractive, she's got her kids out
of the way, she's d D D DA is choosing this
(10:03):
very interesting experiential spiritual leader, which brings me to our
friend Jennifer Anniston. One could argue a different kind of
princess generation princes absolute My princess Princess Jen She's got
a new boyfriend and he's called Jim Curtis. They've been
seen together since June this year. Lots of photographs, a
(10:25):
bit of handholding, holidays, dinners, etcetera, etcetera. Jesse, Who the
hell is Jim Curtis?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Tell the people He's a forty nine year old hypnotist. Yes,
is Jim Curtis. Look, he's Instagram following has skyrocketed. He's
now in the six hundred thousands.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I'll be happy with that.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Hiss bio is My mission is to help you heal
and strive by upgrading your I am and I don't
understand that.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Why don't you know.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Like manifest and yeah, yeah, because that's what Durex doing
on his Instagram too. Every day gives you a prayer
and manifestation. You get to choose a crystal.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
And that's the thing, right, is that At first I went, oh, yeah,
all right, Jim, And then I watched a few and
I went, I feel inspired. What can I say? Because
he said this was one I saw today. Reflect on
a story you have told more than once in the
past month. Is that story empowering? If not? Let it
go Wow, Jim Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I feel attacked.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So thank you, Jim.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
So he is a hypnotist and this is part of
a broader trend, right, because Holly, we were talking. You've
been wanting to talk about Jennifer Aniston's boyfriend because the
moment you saw this smiss and you said it's the
new Silicon Valley tech bro. Yes, he's out of favor
right now. Right, we've just gone you've not done good
(11:43):
things to the planet. We don't trust you anymore. Miranda
Kerr married one, and now there's this shift towards this
ultra spiritual witchy woo woo partner, which says something about status. Right,
So I remember Andrew Garfield was with the.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Witch, yes, the witch doctor, the witch got professional witch.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
And then they broke up. And then Brad Pitt after
Angelina Joel also dated and I want to get this
language correct, a spiritual guru named sat Haari Kalsa. She
was like, did jewelry and stuff, but she was also
very very spiritual. Katie Perry titled her album her Angel Numbers.
Like Hollywood is leaning into this. Gwyneth Paltrow always adjacent.
(12:28):
She has every type of healer, every type of Crystal
and Jennifer Aniston. I think it's important because it was
the same with your Norwegian princess. They've always been wu right,
Like Jennifer Aniston has always loved a Psyche, she's always
loved a Crystal. And it's almost like, during uncertain times,
maybe it would be nice being with someone who appears
(12:51):
to have access to a higher power and they're like,
everything's fine, Everything's gonna be okay.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, famously, the poor celebrities have really tough life, so.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Exactly they need to want to hold their hands help through.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, but look at it this way, right, these are
people who have reached a level of like financial security
and stuff that the rest of us are like, that
would be nice, all we think, but also we're like, oh,
you'd have nothing to worry about. But they clearly still
have plenty of things to worry right, But that's not
one of them, and they might have a lot of
healers on their payroll. I remember Elizabeth Gilbert saying in
(13:25):
that on that press tour for her book that she
recently did that before she got sober. And when I
say sober, I just mean because it was from love
and sex addiction. She said the number of healers I
had on my payroll, between my therapists and my psychologists
and then my energy healer and my psychic and my
this and my that. She's like I was paying a
small army of people to just help me get through
the day. And I reckon that would not be unusual
(13:47):
in these circles. So they're gonna rub up against the
charismatic sexy healers.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
It's very la as well. So this Jim apparently wants
to be the next Oprah. That's some gossip I read.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
If I wanted to be the next Oprah, I would
date Jennifer Aniston. She's friends with Iprah of course, and
also Manifestation.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I know he has manifested so hard. He all so
has a book I did, And do you want to
hear what the title of the book is?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Please?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
How Jennifer Aniston fixed my broken?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
He start read on Yahoo? Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
If he does that, he is out. Jenna is not
going to hang around for that. She would have to
be so certain. If you're Jennifer Aniston and you've been
through all that she has been through, the tabloid troughs
and tribulations, the twenty million she's pregnant. Miracle Twins did,
oh poor her, she's been you know, wronged again. Deanngela like,
if you've been through all that, the last thing you
(14:40):
want is a guy who's going to write a book
about Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
But then I did read she's under the spell. That's
the thing I did, well said cluck like a chicken
if you need hell.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, Andrew Garfield's professional witch girlfriend got accused of putting
a love spell on him until they broke up. Obviously,
but maybe the same is happening.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
That's the thing. People aren't trustworthy because they're like, has
he carved a spell on her? And then everyone went
and looked at his Instagram and they were like, no,
he's just really old.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I think that he's just got a.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Lot of quite attractive I think you would feel safe.
I think to your point earlier, Jesse, I think you've
nail it. I think it's funny that you're suggesting these
people are Charlatan's when you're the ones who may all
get our tarot cards read alive on the podcast. But
I think that to your point earlier, I think that
in an uncertain world, the tech bros are definitely on
the nose other like middle aged male Hollywood actors are
(15:31):
also very like. Think about how the gen X male
celebrities have fared in recent years, like your brads and
Johnny Depps, and you're like, ick, no, no, whereas this
rich seam tapped rich ship of handsome, hot, very in
shape healers, I think you'd feel very safe. I predict
that Nicole Kidman's going to be next.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I was about to say this hollyway and right. I
was like, you know who needs some witchy wore in
her life? Is Nicole Kidman. And there is six degrees
of separation maybe even three to Jennifer Aniston because they
have mutual friend Reese with a spoon. They surely are
mixing in the same circles, so witchy Man can get some.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Does your hypnost's boyfriend know any other hypnot.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, surely.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I hope you've enjoyed this, this installment of scoreless gossip
about woo woo celebrities, and go and watch the royal
rebels do your self.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Favor And can I throw in one more tarot card
prediction that came true?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Oh yeah, okay, we're here.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So while we're here, so she said, I was gonna
have a boy. We discovered Jesse's we know at least
one boy, right. The other thing she said is she
kept saying, you're going on a holiday. It's going to
be to a city. It's gonna be to a city.
And I was like, no, I've got a holiday booked
and it's beachy like anyway over the weekend. Had to
pull the plug on that holiday, and now it looks
like we're going somewhere a little bit more city, Okay.
So I'm just like, she's there, She's just always spot on.
(16:53):
So I'm also a bit witchy. I'm leaning into the
witchy out louder is in a moment the man who
wants us to stop becoming parents?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And why.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Is it immoral to have a baby? Is the decision
ultimately self interested? And how does one square bringing children
into the world given the threat of climate change?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Just a few little questions for Friday afternoon.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Look bleak. I know it's blak, but there was a
brilliant essay by Breeley published by the ABSA recently that
really got me thinking. So she says that we've seen
this rise in the pronatalist movement, So think Elon Musk
with his at least fourteen kids. Vladimir Putin has set
up an award in Russia for women who have ten
(17:39):
children in less than ten years, like it's some sort
of competition.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So she's tired, she needs an award awards Snickers bars.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, I think also maybe an appointment to pelvic floor
physio After all of that. Every religion, as well as
every economic policy tells us that having kids is a
good thing.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
But alongside pro natalism has been another taboo movement growing
over the last twenty or so years, and it is
called anti natalism. David Bennetta is the world's most prominent
anti natalist, and he says that having kids is morally wrong.
All it does is create more suffering. That child doesn't
exist yet, so you can't be having kids for their sake.
(18:17):
They're not consenting to being created. Given climate change is
bringing with it extreme heat, food shortages, conflict. I could
go on. They will face conditions worse than our own.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Jesus, is this making you feel really anxious because you're
brewing a.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Couple of babies exactly right? And I will say I
meant to have one, so don't come for me.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Anti natalists I think it's okay. I think I don't
want you to get anxious about his predictions anyways.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
On I feel sick saying all of that out loud,
but I think most people with kids are thinking it anyway.
Abby Chatfield posted a similar question on TikTok a few
weeks ago. Here's what she asked.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Parents, don't get mad and I ask you this, Okay,
I have an actual question for you, and I'm asking
this in the most earnest way possible. This is not
a gotcha. This is a genuine, genuine question to parents
or people who are pregnant, or people who have decided
to have a baby, like doing IVF or something. People
who either have had a baby or have decided to
have a baby in the past year or two. Okay,
(19:16):
how do you rationalize having a baby with the climate crisis?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I suppose I would love to ask you both the
same question, Holly.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think it's a fair question to ask, right, Like,
I genuinely do any question that you have.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
To do that much set up about, you know it's
going to believe me.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I work in the same world, I know, But like,
if you have to set the question up that many
times and you know it's going to piss a lot
of people off, and I have not seen the responses
to that, but I can only imagine. So Brealley is
an author, a writer who is I think she's extraordinarily good.
She writes really interesting offbeat stuff. And her new novel
(20:01):
it's called Seed. I've read it. I've blurbed it because
I really liked it and it explores this. But she
says that she very deliberately may the protagonist in the book,
who is a passionate anti natalist who ticks all the
boxes you said, Jesse basically thinks that it's an immoral
choice to breed. People are inherently greedy and you know,
(20:21):
would just trample all over everything to further ourselves, is
a man. She deliberately made him a man because she
knew that if she made that protagonist a woman, because
it's fiction, the criticism would just all be about her
and whether or not she personally wants to have a
baby or personally doesn't, which is not something she wants
to discuss. She wants to discuss the idea and it's
a very good book, but the problem, which is represented
(20:43):
by how many set ups Abby had to do in
that question is about asking a very intellectual, very theoretical,
very philosophical question about such a personal primal decision. Is
it's almost impossible to separate them. I can probably separate
them a bit more now because my kids are older,
(21:04):
but that's not to say that this wasn't all around
then too. Like my youngest is thirteen. Certainly, the class
crisis has been a thing. My mum has always been
very much She's very you know, outspoken boomer that she is.
You should never have more than two. Sorry, Jesse, you're.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Gonna but it's okay, Jesse. I only have one, so
you and each other's fine. Her argument would be replace yourselves.
So this argument's been going on for a long time.
I don't feel attacked by this idea, but what I
do understand is that this concept sort of exposes my
limitations because I feel deeply for the state of the world,
(21:41):
but I also have to look at my kids and
kind of think, and I know this is very imperfect thinking.
Every generation has its challenges, so'll figure it out. Wildly optimistic,
I would suggest how I found this question very confronting.
I remember watching this video for the first time, but
(22:01):
the main reason I found it confronting is because I
probably didn't interrogate that at all. And I think if
you ask a lot of people, definitely not in gen Z.
I think they are a lot more considered with their
decision making around whether to start a family or not.
And we should say that this is not talking about
people who choose to be child free. No's an anti
natal movement. They're talking about regardless of whether you want
(22:23):
one or not, you should do it. Yea, yeah, yeah,
But I think the millennials are probably the last generation
that kind of just went along with you know, that's
what you do. You get married and you have a kid.
The majority of us probably thought about what we wanted
and not really so much around what would the state
of the world be once we had those children. Do
you feel the same We're around the same age.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
I reckon I did think about it. I had a
moment with my family that I've talked about. They got
trapped in a bush fire just before twenty twenty, so
end of twenty nineteen, and it was like summer fliers,
YEP and apocalyptic experience. They got trapped. The sky was
black red for days, fridges were broken. I could barely
contact them, like it was terrifying, and I I've always
(23:06):
been really engaged in discussions about climate change because it
terrifies me and because you know, I believe in it.
And then I think I've come to the conclusion that
not every decision is an intellectual one, and then I
(23:27):
think what we try and do is intellectualize it after
the fact. I know a lot of people in their
twenties who say I don't want children for this reason.
A lot of my friends were exactly the same. They
were going, I'm not bringing children into this world. And
then you hit your mid thirties and something changes. And
I am not saying that, even just anecdotally, statistically something changes.
There is all this data that says for all the
(23:48):
talk about climate and people saying that it terrifies them
when it comes to having kids, the actual impact when
people don't have kids, it might be because they don't
have a partner, or because finances or whatever like generally.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
But it is true that the birth rate is dropping.
It is just not for this reason.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes, I'm sure that there are some there are absolutely
going to be people listening who are like, that's why
I didn't have them, But statistically it's not as relevant
as some other reasons. But another comment I saw on
Abby Chatfield's video that did resonate with me was that
it's a radical act of optimism. And I've never been
more future oriented. That is not to say people without
children are not, but never been more future oriented since
(24:32):
having Luna. I always think that when Luna came along,
I went from being a fundamental pessimist to an optimist
because I had to be like I had to look
at the future and go things are going to be great,
whether or not. I truly believe that. I think you.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Look around and things are probably not going to be
great in all kinds of ways. But on an individual level,
you could look around and point to people who are
really trying to do really good things, you know, yes,
And you can point to the just ordinary acts of
kindness and generosity that around you all the time that
you suddenly become almost more aware of when you're forced
into a community you know which you are when you
(25:08):
have kids. One of the things that was really interesting
about breeze essay, which I thought was very even handed
in kind of exploring different ideas, is she had some
experts in that saying that even the idea of an
individual carbon footprint is kind of bullshit that was invented
to make us feel like it wasn't really the big
cul driven corporations who are screwing the world, but us
(25:29):
in our decision whether or not to have a baby.
The other hand, she explored that people, you know, there
are some very hard core antinalists who genuinely believe that
human extinction is the only morally superior option. And that
just feels like.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So yes, there is something within this movement that feels
so nihilistic and so despairing, and it reminded me of
this essay. I read about a term called despair signaling, right,
and it was saying that kind of especially online, there's
this smugness or this like trend of performing who can
be the most hopeless and going see I saw this coming,
(26:06):
or like looking at climate change or looking it horrific
atrocity is going on all over the world and being
like we're fucked and just basically putting your arms up.
And I'm like, I just refuse to live like that.
I mean, I don't think that we should play down
how serious that climate change is here and that we're
existing in it, and that there are a lot of
frontiers that people and governments need to be fighting on.
(26:29):
But the second you throw your arms up is the
second everyone gives up. Like that just feels so disgustingly pessimistic,
like the future people are going to be around for
the future, whether or not you personally have children.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, And what I thought was really interesting that Brees
spoke about in that essay as well, was that a
lot of GenZ in particular site climate change and reducing
their emissions as a reason that they might not have
children or they're considering not having children. But there's a
twenty twenty four IPSOS report that talks about like the
three main ways you can reduce your carbon emissions. One
of them is to have one fewer child. So yeah, okay,
(27:03):
that probably explains why the birth rate's going down.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I like one fewer because I can have three and go, well,
I could have had four, Exactly, I could have ten
and go I could have had a leg Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Or you can just take I'm one of the ones
and have But the other two were to not have
a car and to take one fewer flight. And I
feel like both of those things are probably more achievable options,
or different options for people rather than just choosing to
deny themselves a child if they want to have a
(27:32):
child and feel like they could give a child a
good life, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, And I really like what you were saying wholly
about individualism, because Brie says in this essay that many
people are annoyed by the idea that their most personal decision,
which is whether or not just become a parent, is
influenced by guilt for scale of harm, for profit. No
individual human brain can conceptualize. I can't. I'm actually not equipped.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I feel like I can't take that on exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And that's kind of what I mean when I say,
when I look at my kids and I think about
this without wanting to downplay the seriousness of many terrifying
things that are happening around the world, I just can't
project that onto them. I just have to imagine that
to a certain point, they will figure it out, as
I say. But also I can see the appeal of
the doom pool, right even though as a even though
(28:21):
as a parent, I have to be optimistic, and there
are lots of reasons to be optimistic, as I just said,
and in my everyday life, there are plenty of reasons
to be optimistic. But one of the things that I
think is really appealing about the nihilistic view is because
it does feel we're all extremely online. We've talked about
this lots of times. It does feel like everywhere you
(28:42):
look something is broken. So sometimes there's something actually comforting
about somebody saying, yes, you're right. It is like we
are living in really difficult times. This is why you
need a hypnotist boyfriend. But so I can see the
appeal of it. You know, once you've once you are
looking at the next generation and the next generation, a
(29:03):
lot of things have improved, and you know what, the
doom tunnel, you don't got to do anything in it,
Like once you've accepted that, Like, once you've accepted doom,
it's totally apathetic. The best climate scientists in the world
will tell you, like, doom is not where we're at.
They're not where they want us to be at. Like
I remember going to the Great Barrier Reef and speaking
to these environmentalists and people who work there, and they
(29:25):
were like, doom is our enemy. That is the life
support that they're going to pull out if we don't
start to invest in hope here.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So I quite. I quite like the idea of like
choosing resistance. That doesn't mean that you're choosing kids. But
there's also such to think that we are bad, we
are born for suffering. I just go I fundamentally don't
agree with that. I'm going to choose a bit of.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Joy, my goodness that I never thought i'd see the
day with my friend Jesse Stephens is the one choosing
joy and hope. I love it about you, I know.
I do want to say, though, I don't think there's
anything wrong with having this conversation. I think it's all
right for us to have any conversation. It is.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
But don't you think too that we're talking pro nat
lestandi na da da da da da, these big broad
economic policies. It's just not how people this. The choice
to have a child is not Maybe it is for
some people. For me, it's not a philosophical or intellectual exercise.
I really like what Briley says about I want to
do the Moraley right thing.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Of course one of us willingly going against it. Yeah,
we don't want to harm the planet. Yeah, that's not
the main consideration when a child.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Her final line is basically it would be the most
cynical conclusion of all that we are just mere animals,
beyond the reach of persuasion or philosophy. I don't think
it's cynical.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think it's true.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I think that's what I am, a mere animal.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Last weekend, we had a long weekend in many parts
of Australia and if you were lucky, you might have
gone to dinner with mates or on a weekend away.
I didn't because I'm not organized enough and I seem
to forget every long weekend is coming. I know.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It started the Victorians listening and going to be like
I didn't get one, Well you got one the week before. Yeah, okay,
we're sharing them around. Everybody's got one different. Take one
for Melbourne they get, oh yeah they do, but they
get one for the AFL Gram final. So they had
one last weekend. And then I saw lots about loud
as saying because we obvious we call this podcast in
New South Wales, but it was the Labor Day holiday
and I saw it out loud As discussing why there
wasn't an episode, and someone said, oh, it's the NRL
(31:16):
Gram final, and I said, like that was fun. It
was a very good game. But it is not why
we got to have public holiday anyway. We digress, you digress.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
There's a new trend if you want to be doing
more weekends away with your mates, that might make that
more achievable. And that's their friend groups and now setting
up joint savings accounts with the pure purpose of saving
money to go and do more things together. So we
so much tell me how that works. Yeah, okay, So
on Mom and Me, we ran a story about a woman,
Kim Brindle, and she kind of laid out how they
(31:44):
do it. So her and her five friends in her
friendship group decided on ten dollars a week. They were like,
they're all at different points in their career. Some are
on matt leave, so they just wanted to kind of
pick an achievable number that everyone can set and forget.
They put ten bucks a week into this joint account.
So at the end, you've got this nice pot of money.
So you could go on a weekend trip away, you
could use it just to go to dinner, whatever you
want to use it for.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It's great, right because genius It kind of forces you
into doing something. You've saved the money. Now the money's there,
you've got to use it, and it stops the worst
part of any group trip, which is the constant transferring
of money between each other after the meals.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Okay, but what if we have a big falling out?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
What then? Oh?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
What like this?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
How about financial abuse? Maybe someone could set up the
bank account then disappear. This is going to be the
next Tinder swindler?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
What happened to my hopeful little mere? Can? I think so,
pessanvely Joy, I think this is genius, as you say, Stacy,
So I have this one girl's trip every year and
people always say I wish I did that, or my
mother's God. But the only reason that happens is because
it is locked in, you know what I mean, Like
it's in the calendar every year. It's not like a
(32:52):
maybe should we where will we? It's like it's happening.
And this is a genius idea because for that very reason,
and even if you don't go away, the idea that
that's the fund that means that if you do go
out for girls dinner or whatever, that will pay for it.
It takes that stress out of it because the worst
thing about the group trip if you do it and
it creeps up and suddenly it's like the flights are
(33:13):
three hundred dollars and you're that is not a moment
when you've got three hundred dollars, then that's the reason
why you go I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, And if you can't go away, you could use
this for other things, like you could just go on
like a group shopping spirit. You could just go to
Mecca together. You know, like it doesn't do you know
how fun would that be to be like free money
shopping spree day. Yeah. So there's lots of ways you
could use and I just think everyone should do it.
I'm setting one up immediately.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
After the break. We have got recommendations for your weekend
and the most fun homework anyone will ever give you ever.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers. Follow the
link in the show notes to get us in your
ears five days a week. And a huge thank you
to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Vibes, I Yah, Atmosphereping, Casualping fun.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
weekend with our very best recommendations, Stacy, why don't you
go first?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, I will. I'm busting to talk about this one.
I want to recommend a show that I feel like
has flown under the radar. So I don't know whether
you'll have seen it, but I love it as much
as I love Friends, and that's a big call. I
think it should be at that level. It's Shrinking.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh, I love Shrinking.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, okay, with Paris and Ford and yes, singy. What's
his name, Jason?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yes, Jason's Paris and Ford Jason Siegel. And it's written
by my imaginary boyfriend, maybe yours too, Holly. In a
weird crossover of our generations. Brett Goldstein, who plays Roy
Kent on Ted Lasso, he wrote this show.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Why it's so good?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's brilliant, and he actually comes in as a cameo.
You'll have to look out.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
And it's about because I've seen a little bit of it.
It's really warm.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's like a kettle.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Someone's a psychologists.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
All three of the main characters are psychologists that work
in the same practice, but it's a kind of about
their personal lives once they walk out of those sessions.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
What's on your mind today?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Like, I want to change, but I'm not particularly open
to make those changes.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm trying. Every time I get rid of one compulsion,
another compulsion comes up.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Are you yawning right now? Spoiler alert? I feel like
I'm stuck, right How does that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Jimmy, where's it's three in the morning?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
What's in that bull?
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Pencils?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
The other bull? Maybe some painkillers? Maybe there's painkillers in there. Yeah,
And it's very fun and warm, but it's also a
bit dark, like Jason Siegel's character has lost his wife
and is dealing with the loss of his wife and
like parenting his teenage daughter through that while he's struggling himself.
So there is some darker things to it. But it
is just the best, and it's one of those shows
that I think is a really good couples show, Like
(36:13):
if you find that you both have very different interests.
This is a show that like crosses over on the
ven diagram.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And where do you watch it?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
It's on Apple. Yeah, two seasons out now and season
three will come out later in the year.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
We watched season one and I loved it, and then
I think I watched like a couple of season two.
But then you know when shows just fall off your
radar for no good reason, So you've reminded me that's
really good. So there's a whole second season.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, second season, and then third will drop soon. So yeah,
it came back on to my radar. I'm now obsessed
and keep telling everyone to watch it.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Holly, how about you? What's your wraco?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
I have a self serving reco this week because Mid
is back, which is the other podcast that I do,
which is Conversations for gen X women who are anything
but Mid because obviously we're not mad at all. That's
the joke of the titles. Clever Anyway. Anyway, we have
come back with six new episodes, and we've got six
(37:06):
conversations with really kick ass guests, and some of them
are really sad, and some of them are really funny,
and some of them really helpful. The one I want
to recommend today, this is personal for me, is that
I'm really trying after Jesse and me, I have been
banging on about it for ages to get my ass
back into a Jim routine and into exercise and into waits.
And so we got doctor Stacy Simson now you might
(37:27):
show her all because she went completely viral when a
few months ago, or maybe even almost a year ago,
when she was on the Mel Robins.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Podcast, we talked about her on out Loud, Yes we did.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
We talked about her on out Loud because she basically
busted all these sort of myths that have been out
there about women and exercise. And she says that you know,
so much of everything we just take for granted, and
the advice we take, whether it's all the way from
intimittent fasting to cold plunging to this to that might
not be harmful or whatever, but all the experimentation on
it's been done by men. It's mind boggling really when
(37:59):
she gets into all that. But what's really helpful about
this episode is if you're like me and your relationship
with exercise and jim work, and this isn't true for
all the times in my life, I go through real phases,
you know, when I'm like really into it, loving it, sick,
feeling fantastic. Then it falls off my radar and then
it just feels like such a punish to get back
(38:19):
to it. She's very much about letting go of all
that bad energy around it and that sort of whipping
yourself in the gym, like working yourself to the bone.
She has really practical, smart advice about what you should do.
She's really practical, she's really feisty. I love her. She's
also the one who went viral for saying that women
shouldn't exercise first thing in the morning on an empty stomach,
(38:41):
and she told everyone to make protein coffee and that
went crazy. And she tells me all about that. I
haven't got around tonight yet. Anyway, if you're like me
and you're trying to literally find your way back to
the gym, seems to have fallen off your internal GPS.
This episode with Dr Stacy Simms is really good and
it's in your feed if you search mid.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I really really like her. I could listen to her
talk all day. My recommendation is something a bit different.
So I have been house sitting at me as well.
She's been away this perks Perks perks pecs and I
came into work the other day and I said, guys,
I have terrible news, and that is that I have
believed for my whole life that expensive hair care is
(39:23):
a ruse. Is absolute, like you don't need the fancy
stuff you need your just supermarket.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Someone told me that once and I've lived by it, right,
and so she.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Used to tell everybody that I used to say cheap
shampoos that go.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, so this is right. I have been using
like the hairspray with the fifteen percent extra that you
get that's basically just chemicals. I've been using that forever. Anyway,
I go to MEAs and the woman, if you want
to know what her current hyperfixation is is hair care.
Because I walked in and went, wow, there are a
lot of products right just for everything.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
And they are the ones who's left behind.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
They're the ones left behind.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I don't know what she's taken, but I was like, okay,
well she'd want me to use it, and she would.
I had Claire's book launch the other week and I
kind of did a little luck hurly my hair and
I was like, what shall we use? And I thought, oh, look,
Kevin Murphy, there we go. I'll treat myself and I'll
use it. Kevin Murphy called bedroom hair and I used
it lovely smell and is.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It like astrising spray?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
And I recognized the smell because I went, oh, this
is what when I've had my hair done for TV
and stuff, this is what they've used, so it must
be really good. And I went and I was like
it didn't have the crunchy and I always have the
crunchy thing and then I kind of brush it out
and it falls and whatever. But I was like, Oh,
this is holding really really well. And then I went
to bed that night work up Victoria's Secret Angel. I
(40:46):
was like, amazing. And I came to work and I
was like, I think I look amazing. It held. I
think it would have held for days right, Like it
was so good. And when I use like you know,
supermarket hair spray, it is like the next day it's
not pretty, like it's wiry and it's just like I've
got to wash it to get all the gunk out.
(41:07):
But this is I looked it up because I didn't
purchase it. It's forty nine to ninety five, which feels
like a lot for a text rising spray, but it is.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So And do do you have to use a lot
to make it happen?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (41:19):
No, like a.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Tiny little beer And it's like you wouldn't even need
it on a curl, but like even if you were
just doing the front of your hair and you wanted
to kind of get a little bit of volumeizing or something.
It's it's really good. And I've also been doing I
had to wear a white shirt the other night and
I had foundation on and I used me as hair
spray trick because she says you have to spray hair
spray on your collar so that you don't get makeup
on it. So I've been using all her products and
(41:41):
they're really good.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I love it amazing. Or a homework, homework, homework, Oh yes,
our homework out louders. This won't be any surprise coming
from me. But the Victoria Beckham documentary is out on
Netflix now and we are dying to talk about it.
But we want you to all have watched it so
that we can talk about it together.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You haven't even watched it, and you've come in with
theories about radical acceptance.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Radical acceptance. I've told you all about it. This is
what we'll be talking about next week. Friends, about you
any money? Anyway? You need to go and watch the
Victoria Beckham documentary so that we can all hold hands
and talk about it together next week. You know it's
going to make my week.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I could just We're giving you a whole weekend like
you got time.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
A massive thank you to all of you out louders
for being with us here on today's show and for
being with us all week, and to our fabulous team
for helping us put it together. Read this out, won't you?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Our group executive producer is Ruth Devine, executive producer is Sashatanic,
our senior audio producer is Leah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Porges, video producer is Josh Green, and our junior content
producers are Coco and Tessa.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Friends. Are you in the squeeze stage of life? On
Parenting out Loud? This week, Mon's Amelia and Stacy are
back with a new episode that asks that question and
many more. Remember Parenting out Loud drops every Saturday morning.
It's in its own feed. You can find it by
searching Parenting out Loud and then tapping follow so you
(43:09):
never miss an episode of the smart parenting Chat.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, Hello, and welcome
to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually
talking about on Friday, the tenth of October. That's shouting
them was a little boo, wasn't. I'm sorry, out louders.
If that like really, I'll startled you. I'm Holly Wayne Wright.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I'm Jesse Stevens, and I am Stacy Hicks feeling in
for em Vernon. You might have heard me on Parenting
out Loud, which drops every Saturday.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
And here's what's made our agenda for today. There's an
actual princess married to a shaman and a generation ex
princess whose new boyfriend is a dead set manifesting guru.
Is Woo Woo dude the new status celebrity boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Plus there's a very convincing case for opening a joint
bank account with your friends.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
And the essay that made me wonder if having kids
is morally wrong. I am desperately going to try and
launch a defense I haven't quite worked out yet. But first,
in case you missed it, people are no longer job
hopping their job hugging. According to recent research from Bold
hr SO, job hugging is when an employee stays in
(01:23):
a role even if they're unhappy or they're finding the
role unfulfilling, they clutch on for dear. Life and workplace
expert Rebecca Horton says leaders should be really worried about this, like,
this isn't a good thing because it's driven by risk aversion,
economic anxiety, and a lot of it is to do
with fear of AI. People are feeling unstable within their
(01:46):
industries and they're going got a hold on here. It
makes people really burnt out. She says. Everyone is tired
and it can be a workplace nightmare because these people
are disengaged. That can impact productivity. Experts worn as well
that these types of employees aren't loyal, like, don't confuse
job hugging for loyalty, because the second the job market changes,
(02:08):
they're all out.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Once.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Remember just after COVID, when it kind of there was
the post COVID flush and suddenly the job hopping thing
was big. It was like yes, everybody was like I'm
living my best life now I've learned what matters to me,
and I'm going to jump jump jump jump jump around
and now we're all like, rah, the robots are coming
and we're like, I'm holding.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
On for dear life.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, And I felt like the golden number was like
two years. Remember, like you never really stayed in a
place for more than two years. That's what we were told.
You had to go to the next, go to the next,
keep increasing.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
And it was a lot of people were leaving jobs
without another job lined up, which I was always in
awe of because it's like they just went, I will
jump in the Paris figure it out. Yeah, something will
will help.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
The thing about hugging, So the term job hugging, and
I understand the fact that this can be a negative
thing because you know, if you are over where you work,
it's better leave, let's be honest, Or you're over the
job you're doing there better from everyone that you leave,
even though employers would like you to stay longer than
two years, ideally because a lot of investment goes into
finding you, training you, et cetera. But job hugging, if
(03:12):
that hug is real and it comes with love and
kisses and you really love it, then sure hug the job, right,
But it's if the hug is fake and you're keeping
your groins away exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yes, So this is how you can tell some people
realize the job. My dad has been doing the same
job for something like thirty years.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, right, it's great if it's not broke.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's not exactly huge hug it tight take that money.
But there was a psychologist interviewed in this article, and
she said, if you get a lot of anxiety on
a Sunday night, if you're irritable, if you are bored,
and if you feel trapped, then they're all signs that
you're hugging rather than just happy with where you are.
(03:52):
Are you guys noticing this even among friends and stuff?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think so. But I have a theory that it's
not because of stability. I feel like it's flexibility that
people are holding on to, because you know how if
you just started a job, you couldn't go in on
the first day and say, oh, do you mind if
I work from home because I've got a doctor's appointment
at two pm. I'm good for it, Like you have
to kind of earn the good will for flexibility. So true.
So I think if you're in a position where you
have that you're trusted, then you go, well, I'm onto
(04:17):
a good thing here, so I'm not going to move
somewhere else where. I've got to prove myself first.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
And apparently all the stats say as well that job
mobility is down, like people aren't going yeah, like they
genuinely aren't hopping. That's just I think all over the world.
And that's because of you know, the economic climate right now.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
But that makes sense about the flexibility because obviously there's
been a big pushback into the office because at different
points in your career, different things are important to you.
Sometimes you'll take flexibility over more money. Sometimes you'll take
extra holiday days, et cetera. And other times you're just like,
absolutely not. It's all about the dollar dollar bills. I mean,
it's always about the dollar dollar bills. But you know
what I mean. So, if you've got a young family
and stuff, flexibilit it's very important. If you have been
(04:55):
somewhere where you know you've agreed two days in, three
days out or whatever, and then you're like, I know,
if I jump, they'll use it as not an excuse
but a reason to go five days in.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
You're like, huh, yeah, you'd have to negotiate that all
over again.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So a few years ago they were talking about quiet
quitting and there was bare minimum Monday, and acting your
wage was the other thing. And I was reading all
of those and I was like, I think they're totally
compatible with job hugging. I think you can do all
of those things without leaving your job. Lots of these
people have probably quietly quit, but sometimes you just got
(05:31):
to work for the money.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Okay, I've got a theory, but before I explain the
theory to you, I need to start with a bit
of a recommendation. Okay, have either of you two watched
The Royal Rebels on Netflix? No, I'm offended. I've been
telling you that the word royal in it. I've been
telling Jess to watch it four weeks so I've offended.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
But I started Slow Horses. Has anyone watched Slow Horn?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Amazing? Did you start at season one? I did, mate,
It's one of the best things on TV.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well, there's a bonus recommendation there, you go.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Some of my recommendations are good tough, all right, So
what The Royal Rebels is. It's one of those PR
documentaries that we talked about the other week procumentaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh so like David Beckham's.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, it's like a movie length documentary made directed by
the person who won an Emmy for doing Tiger King.
So very very classy, well made docco but made one
hundred percent with the cooperation of the royals in question
and the royals in question. It's about a Norwegian princess,
so she's not first in line, so she's a bit
like Prince Harry, and that she could be the more
(06:34):
rebellious one right, called Marta Louise, And it follows the
lead up to her second marriage to a shaman called
Dorik Veret Holly.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
This is probably something I should know by this age,
But what is a no?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Please? I have been dying telling you. So a shaman
is a spiritual practitioner, so like also could be a
priest or a priestess not in the traditional religious sense, right,
who might counsel, might preach often enters and you see
Derek doing this during the show, like an altered state
of consciousness while doing it right to communicate with the
(07:10):
spirit world and pulled you through whatever problems you've got.
They claim sometimes that they can heal the sick, they
can manifest they can guide souls. And he of course direct,
which he makes him all the more fun. Direct veric
he's called is a Hollywood sharman, and among his clients
in the past have been my friend Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Of course, is Derek White.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
No, so Drek is from California, so he's American, but
he is a man of color. He says that his
heritage includes Haitian African Native American, so a mixture, but
he is a man of color. And he was the
first black man to marry into a European royal family,
so he's a sharman. He also is this is just
relevant in terms of how much he stirred the pot
(07:53):
in the European royal world, not in any other way.
And he is also not straight. He has in the
past stated guys and now he describes himself as a
soul sexual. And he also talks very openly about that
he's attracted to people's souls and the person whose soul
he was attracted to that's made him the subse this
documentary is our mate, Marta Luise. She is a grown
(08:14):
up lady. She's got three kids from her first marriage,
all of whom are delightful and are also in this
they're like young adults. Now what you get from this
documentary is they are both kind of eccentric, free spirits,
but they are lovely. She is lovely, like just the
loveliest right. But she herself has always been a big searcher,
so she all through her life obviously she had loads
(08:37):
of press on her in Norway, just like all the
royals do in their home countries. And she's always been
the rebel, so she's always explored alternative therapies. She's got
an angel healing clinic. I don't know what that is,
but anyway, this doco is great because it basically follows them.
They've been dating now since twenty eighteen, so quite a
long time. It follows them as they decide to get
(08:58):
married and get married, and it's got all the really
juicy ingredients. Basically, Martin Luise is like, let's just have
a quiet little wedding and directs like absolutely not. He's like,
if I'm going to be the first black man to
marry into and Ryalty, I want all the bells and whistles,
hyper visibility, Like why not? Right, So they have this big,
fancy wedding at one point, the King of Norway has
to come out and make a statement because the press,
(09:19):
of course are horribly racist against him and also suggesting
that he's blackmailing her, that there's something really dodgy about him.
And the King of Norway comes out at one point
and issues a statement to the press telling the multiple
the heads in and that they are being racist. This
was all happening around the same time as Harry and Meggs,
and Harry actually called out that statement a one time
and said, I wish my family would do this, but
they won't. Really, so this was all going on at
(09:42):
the same time. Okay, but it's really good doco and
I couldn'tcommend it enough. But it's also very interesting, which
leads me to my theory in that watching this woman
who could pretty much have dated anyone in the world
right in terms of the fact she's got status, she's
got money, she's charismatic, attractive, she's got her kids out
of the way, she's d D D DA is choosing this
(10:03):
very interesting experiential spiritual leader, which brings me to our
friend Jennifer Anniston. One could argue a different kind of
princess generation princes absolute My princess Princess Jen She's got
a new boyfriend and he's called Jim Curtis. They've been
seen together since June this year. Lots of photographs, a
(10:25):
bit of handholding, holidays, dinners, etcetera, etcetera. Jesse, Who the
hell is Jim Curtis?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Tell the people He's a forty nine year old hypnotist. Yes,
is Jim Curtis. Look, he's Instagram following has skyrocketed. He's
now in the six hundred thousands.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I'll be happy with that.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Hiss bio is My mission is to help you heal
and strive by upgrading your I am and I don't
understand that.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Why don't you know.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Like manifest and yeah, yeah, because that's what Durex doing
on his Instagram too. Every day gives you a prayer
and manifestation. You get to choose a crystal.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
And that's the thing, right, is that At first I went, oh, yeah,
all right, Jim, And then I watched a few and
I went, I feel inspired. What can I say? Because
he said this was one I saw today. Reflect on
a story you have told more than once in the
past month. Is that story empowering? If not? Let it
go Wow, Jim Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I feel attacked.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So thank you, Jim.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
So he is a hypnotist and this is part of
a broader trend, right, because Holly, we were talking. You've
been wanting to talk about Jennifer Aniston's boyfriend because the
moment you saw this smiss and you said it's the
new Silicon Valley tech bro. Yes, he's out of favor
right now. Right, we've just gone you've not done good
(11:43):
things to the planet. We don't trust you anymore. Miranda
Kerr married one, and now there's this shift towards this
ultra spiritual witchy woo woo partner, which says something about status. Right,
So I remember Andrew Garfield was with the.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Witch, yes, the witch doctor, the witch got professional witch.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
And then they broke up. And then Brad Pitt after
Angelina Joel also dated and I want to get this
language correct, a spiritual guru named sat Haari Kalsa. She
was like, did jewelry and stuff, but she was also
very very spiritual. Katie Perry titled her album her Angel Numbers.
Like Hollywood is leaning into this. Gwyneth Paltrow always adjacent.
(12:28):
She has every type of healer, every type of Crystal
and Jennifer Aniston. I think it's important because it was
the same with your Norwegian princess. They've always been wu right,
Like Jennifer Aniston has always loved a Psyche, she's always
loved a Crystal. And it's almost like, during uncertain times,
maybe it would be nice being with someone who appears
(12:51):
to have access to a higher power and they're like,
everything's fine, Everything's gonna be okay.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, famously, the poor celebrities have really tough life, so.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Exactly they need to want to hold their hands help through.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, but look at it this way, right, these are
people who have reached a level of like financial security
and stuff that the rest of us are like, that
would be nice, all we think, but also we're like, oh,
you'd have nothing to worry about. But they clearly still
have plenty of things to worry right, But that's not
one of them, and they might have a lot of
healers on their payroll. I remember Elizabeth Gilbert saying in
(13:25):
that on that press tour for her book that she
recently did that before she got sober. And when I
say sober, I just mean because it was from love
and sex addiction. She said the number of healers I
had on my payroll, between my therapists and my psychologists
and then my energy healer and my psychic and my
this and my that. She's like I was paying a
small army of people to just help me get through
the day. And I reckon that would not be unusual
(13:47):
in these circles. So they're gonna rub up against the
charismatic sexy healers.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
It's very la as well. So this Jim apparently wants
to be the next Oprah. That's some gossip I read.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
If I wanted to be the next Oprah, I would
date Jennifer Aniston. She's friends with Iprah of course, and
also Manifestation.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I know he has manifested so hard. He all so
has a book I did, And do you want to
hear what the title of the book is?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Please?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
How Jennifer Aniston fixed my broken?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
He start read on Yahoo? Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
If he does that, he is out. Jenna is not
going to hang around for that. She would have to
be so certain. If you're Jennifer Aniston and you've been
through all that she has been through, the tabloid troughs
and tribulations, the twenty million she's pregnant. Miracle Twins did,
oh poor her, she's been you know, wronged again. Deanngela like,
if you've been through all that, the last thing you
(14:40):
want is a guy who's going to write a book
about Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
But then I did read she's under the spell. That's
the thing I did, well said cluck like a chicken
if you need hell.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, Andrew Garfield's professional witch girlfriend got accused of putting
a love spell on him until they broke up. Obviously,
but maybe the same is happening.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
That's the thing. People aren't trustworthy because they're like, has
he carved a spell on her? And then everyone went
and looked at his Instagram and they were like, no,
he's just really old.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I think that he's just got a.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Lot of quite attractive I think you would feel safe.
I think to your point earlier, Jesse, I think you've
nail it. I think it's funny that you're suggesting these
people are Charlatan's when you're the ones who may all
get our tarot cards read alive on the podcast. But
I think that to your point earlier, I think that
in an uncertain world, the tech bros are definitely on
the nose other like middle aged male Hollywood actors are
(15:31):
also very like. Think about how the gen X male
celebrities have fared in recent years, like your brads and
Johnny Depps, and you're like, ick, no, no, whereas this
rich seam tapped rich ship of handsome, hot, very in
shape healers, I think you'd feel very safe. I predict
that Nicole Kidman's going to be next.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I was about to say this hollyway and right. I
was like, you know who needs some witchy wore in
her life? Is Nicole Kidman. And there is six degrees
of separation maybe even three to Jennifer Aniston because they
have mutual friend Reese with a spoon. They surely are
mixing in the same circles, so witchy Man can get some.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Does your hypnost's boyfriend know any other hypnot.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, surely.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I hope you've enjoyed this, this installment of scoreless gossip
about woo woo celebrities, and go and watch the royal
rebels do your self.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Favor And can I throw in one more tarot card
prediction that came true?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Oh yeah, okay, we're here.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So while we're here, so she said, I was gonna
have a boy. We discovered Jesse's we know at least
one boy, right. The other thing she said is she
kept saying, you're going on a holiday. It's going to
be to a city. It's gonna be to a city.
And I was like, no, I've got a holiday booked
and it's beachy like anyway over the weekend. Had to
pull the plug on that holiday, and now it looks
like we're going somewhere a little bit more city, Okay.
So I'm just like, she's there, She's just always spot on.
(16:53):
So I'm also a bit witchy. I'm leaning into the
witchy out louder is in a moment the man who
wants us to stop becoming parents?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And why.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Is it immoral to have a baby? Is the decision
ultimately self interested? And how does one square bringing children
into the world given the threat of climate change?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Just a few little questions for Friday afternoon.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Look bleak. I know it's blak, but there was a
brilliant essay by Breeley published by the ABSA recently that
really got me thinking. So she says that we've seen
this rise in the pronatalist movement, So think Elon Musk
with his at least fourteen kids. Vladimir Putin has set
up an award in Russia for women who have ten
(17:39):
children in less than ten years, like it's some sort
of competition.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So she's tired, she needs an award awards Snickers bars.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, I think also maybe an appointment to pelvic floor
physio After all of that. Every religion, as well as
every economic policy tells us that having kids is a
good thing.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
But alongside pro natalism has been another taboo movement growing
over the last twenty or so years, and it is
called anti natalism. David Bennetta is the world's most prominent
anti natalist, and he says that having kids is morally wrong.
All it does is create more suffering. That child doesn't
exist yet, so you can't be having kids for their sake.
(18:17):
They're not consenting to being created. Given climate change is
bringing with it extreme heat, food shortages, conflict. I could
go on. They will face conditions worse than our own.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Jesus, is this making you feel really anxious because you're
brewing a.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Couple of babies exactly right? And I will say I
meant to have one, so don't come for me.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Anti natalists I think it's okay. I think I don't
want you to get anxious about his predictions anyways.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
On I feel sick saying all of that out loud,
but I think most people with kids are thinking it anyway.
Abby Chatfield posted a similar question on TikTok a few
weeks ago. Here's what she asked.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Parents, don't get mad and I ask you this, Okay,
I have an actual question for you, and I'm asking
this in the most earnest way possible. This is not
a gotcha. This is a genuine, genuine question to parents
or people who are pregnant, or people who have decided
to have a baby, like doing IVF or something. People
who either have had a baby or have decided to
have a baby in the past year or two. Okay,
(19:16):
how do you rationalize having a baby with the climate crisis?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I suppose I would love to ask you both the
same question, Holly.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think it's a fair question to ask, right, Like,
I genuinely do any question that you have.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
To do that much set up about, you know it's
going to believe me.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I work in the same world, I know, But like,
if you have to set the question up that many
times and you know it's going to piss a lot
of people off, and I have not seen the responses
to that, but I can only imagine. So Brealley is
an author, a writer who is I think she's extraordinarily good.
She writes really interesting offbeat stuff. And her new novel
(20:01):
it's called Seed. I've read it. I've blurbed it because
I really liked it and it explores this. But she
says that she very deliberately may the protagonist in the book,
who is a passionate anti natalist who ticks all the
boxes you said, Jesse basically thinks that it's an immoral
choice to breed. People are inherently greedy and you know,
(20:21):
would just trample all over everything to further ourselves, is
a man. She deliberately made him a man because she
knew that if she made that protagonist a woman, because
it's fiction, the criticism would just all be about her
and whether or not she personally wants to have a
baby or personally doesn't, which is not something she wants
to discuss. She wants to discuss the idea and it's
a very good book, but the problem, which is represented
(20:43):
by how many set ups Abby had to do in
that question is about asking a very intellectual, very theoretical,
very philosophical question about such a personal primal decision. Is
it's almost impossible to separate them. I can probably separate
them a bit more now because my kids are older,
(21:04):
but that's not to say that this wasn't all around
then too. Like my youngest is thirteen. Certainly, the class
crisis has been a thing. My mum has always been
very much She's very you know, outspoken boomer that she is.
You should never have more than two. Sorry, Jesse, you're.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Gonna but it's okay, Jesse. I only have one, so
you and each other's fine. Her argument would be replace yourselves.
So this argument's been going on for a long time.
I don't feel attacked by this idea, but what I
do understand is that this concept sort of exposes my
limitations because I feel deeply for the state of the world,
(21:41):
but I also have to look at my kids and
kind of think, and I know this is very imperfect thinking.
Every generation has its challenges, so'll figure it out. Wildly optimistic,
I would suggest how I found this question very confronting.
I remember watching this video for the first time, but
(22:01):
the main reason I found it confronting is because I
probably didn't interrogate that at all. And I think if
you ask a lot of people, definitely not in gen Z.
I think they are a lot more considered with their
decision making around whether to start a family or not.
And we should say that this is not talking about
people who choose to be child free. No's an anti
natal movement. They're talking about regardless of whether you want
(22:23):
one or not, you should do it. Yea, yeah, yeah,
But I think the millennials are probably the last generation
that kind of just went along with you know, that's
what you do. You get married and you have a kid.
The majority of us probably thought about what we wanted
and not really so much around what would the state
of the world be once we had those children. Do
you feel the same We're around the same age.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
I reckon I did think about it. I had a
moment with my family that I've talked about. They got
trapped in a bush fire just before twenty twenty, so
end of twenty nineteen, and it was like summer fliers,
YEP and apocalyptic experience. They got trapped. The sky was
black red for days, fridges were broken. I could barely
contact them, like it was terrifying, and I I've always
(23:06):
been really engaged in discussions about climate change because it
terrifies me and because you know, I believe in it.
And then I think I've come to the conclusion that
not every decision is an intellectual one, and then I
(23:27):
think what we try and do is intellectualize it after
the fact. I know a lot of people in their
twenties who say I don't want children for this reason.
A lot of my friends were exactly the same. They
were going, I'm not bringing children into this world. And
then you hit your mid thirties and something changes. And
I am not saying that, even just anecdotally, statistically something changes.
There is all this data that says for all the
(23:48):
talk about climate and people saying that it terrifies them
when it comes to having kids, the actual impact when
people don't have kids, it might be because they don't
have a partner, or because finances or whatever like generally.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
But it is true that the birth rate is dropping.
It is just not for this reason.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes, I'm sure that there are some there are absolutely
going to be people listening who are like, that's why
I didn't have them, But statistically it's not as relevant
as some other reasons. But another comment I saw on
Abby Chatfield's video that did resonate with me was that
it's a radical act of optimism. And I've never been
more future oriented. That is not to say people without
children are not, but never been more future oriented since
(24:32):
having Luna. I always think that when Luna came along,
I went from being a fundamental pessimist to an optimist
because I had to be like I had to look
at the future and go things are going to be great,
whether or not. I truly believe that. I think you.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Look around and things are probably not going to be
great in all kinds of ways. But on an individual level,
you could look around and point to people who are
really trying to do really good things, you know, yes,
And you can point to the just ordinary acts of
kindness and generosity that around you all the time that
you suddenly become almost more aware of when you're forced
into a community you know which you are when you
(25:08):
have kids. One of the things that was really interesting
about breeze essay, which I thought was very even handed
in kind of exploring different ideas, is she had some
experts in that saying that even the idea of an
individual carbon footprint is kind of bullshit that was invented
to make us feel like it wasn't really the big
cul driven corporations who are screwing the world, but us
(25:29):
in our decision whether or not to have a baby.
The other hand, she explored that people, you know, there
are some very hard core antinalists who genuinely believe that
human extinction is the only morally superior option. And that
just feels like.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So yes, there is something within this movement that feels
so nihilistic and so despairing, and it reminded me of
this essay. I read about a term called despair signaling, right,
and it was saying that kind of especially online, there's
this smugness or this like trend of performing who can
be the most hopeless and going see I saw this coming,
(26:06):
or like looking at climate change or looking it horrific
atrocity is going on all over the world and being
like we're fucked and just basically putting your arms up.
And I'm like, I just refuse to live like that.
I mean, I don't think that we should play down
how serious that climate change is here and that we're
existing in it, and that there are a lot of
frontiers that people and governments need to be fighting on.
(26:29):
But the second you throw your arms up is the
second everyone gives up. Like that just feels so disgustingly pessimistic,
like the future people are going to be around for
the future, whether or not you personally have children.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, And what I thought was really interesting that Brees
spoke about in that essay as well, was that a
lot of GenZ in particular site climate change and reducing
their emissions as a reason that they might not have
children or they're considering not having children. But there's a
twenty twenty four IPSOS report that talks about like the
three main ways you can reduce your carbon emissions. One
of them is to have one fewer child. So yeah, okay,
(27:03):
that probably explains why the birth rate's going down.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I like one fewer because I can have three and go, well,
I could have had four, Exactly, I could have ten
and go I could have had a leg Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Or you can just take I'm one of the ones
and have But the other two were to not have
a car and to take one fewer flight. And I
feel like both of those things are probably more achievable options,
or different options for people rather than just choosing to
deny themselves a child if they want to have a
(27:32):
child and feel like they could give a child a
good life, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, And I really like what you were saying wholly
about individualism, because Brie says in this essay that many
people are annoyed by the idea that their most personal decision,
which is whether or not just become a parent, is
influenced by guilt for scale of harm, for profit. No
individual human brain can conceptualize. I can't. I'm actually not equipped.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
I feel like I can't take that on exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And that's kind of what I mean when I say,
when I look at my kids and I think about
this without wanting to downplay the seriousness of many terrifying
things that are happening around the world, I just can't
project that onto them. I just have to imagine that
to a certain point, they will figure it out, as
I say. But also I can see the appeal of
the doom pool, right even though as a even though
(28:21):
as a parent, I have to be optimistic, and there
are lots of reasons to be optimistic, as I just said,
and in my everyday life, there are plenty of reasons
to be optimistic. But one of the things that I
think is really appealing about the nihilistic view is because
it does feel we're all extremely online. We've talked about
this lots of times. It does feel like everywhere you
(28:42):
look something is broken. So sometimes there's something actually comforting
about somebody saying, yes, you're right. It is like we
are living in really difficult times. This is why you
need a hypnotist boyfriend. But so I can see the
appeal of it. You know, once you've once you are
looking at the next generation and the next generation, a
(29:03):
lot of things have improved, and you know what, the
doom tunnel, you don't got to do anything in it,
Like once you've accepted that, Like, once you've accepted doom,
it's totally apathetic. The best climate scientists in the world
will tell you, like, doom is not where we're at.
They're not where they want us to be at. Like
I remember going to the Great Barrier Reef and speaking
to these environmentalists and people who work there, and they
(29:25):
were like, doom is our enemy. That is the life
support that they're going to pull out if we don't
start to invest in hope here.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So I quite. I quite like the idea of like
choosing resistance. That doesn't mean that you're choosing kids. But
there's also such to think that we are bad, we
are born for suffering. I just go I fundamentally don't
agree with that. I'm going to choose a bit of.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Joy, my goodness that I never thought i'd see the
day with my friend Jesse Stephens is the one choosing
joy and hope. I love it about you, I know.
I do want to say, though, I don't think there's
anything wrong with having this conversation. I think it's all
right for us to have any conversation. It is.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
But don't you think too that we're talking pro nat
lestandi na da da da da da, these big broad
economic policies. It's just not how people this. The choice
to have a child is not Maybe it is for
some people. For me, it's not a philosophical or intellectual exercise.
I really like what Briley says about I want to
do the Moraley right thing.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Of course one of us willingly going against it. Yeah,
we don't want to harm the planet. Yeah, that's not
the main consideration when a child.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Her final line is basically it would be the most
cynical conclusion of all that we are just mere animals,
beyond the reach of persuasion or philosophy. I don't think
it's cynical.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think it's true.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I think that's what I am, a mere animal.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Last weekend, we had a long weekend in many parts
of Australia and if you were lucky, you might have
gone to dinner with mates or on a weekend away.
I didn't because I'm not organized enough and I seem
to forget every long weekend is coming. I know.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It started the Victorians listening and going to be like
I didn't get one, Well you got one the week before. Yeah, okay,
we're sharing them around. Everybody's got one different. Take one
for Melbourne they get, oh yeah they do, but they
get one for the AFL Gram final. So they had
one last weekend. And then I saw lots about loud
as saying because we obvious we call this podcast in
New South Wales, but it was the Labor Day holiday
and I saw it out loud As discussing why there
wasn't an episode, and someone said, oh, it's the NRL
(31:16):
Gram final, and I said, like that was fun. It
was a very good game. But it is not why
we got to have public holiday anyway. We digress, you digress.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
There's a new trend if you want to be doing
more weekends away with your mates, that might make that
more achievable. And that's their friend groups and now setting
up joint savings accounts with the pure purpose of saving
money to go and do more things together. So we
so much tell me how that works. Yeah, okay, So
on Mom and Me, we ran a story about a woman,
Kim Brindle, and she kind of laid out how they
(31:44):
do it. So her and her five friends in her
friendship group decided on ten dollars a week. They were like,
they're all at different points in their career. Some are
on matt leave, so they just wanted to kind of
pick an achievable number that everyone can set and forget.
They put ten bucks a week into this joint account.
So at the end, you've got this nice pot of money.
So you could go on a weekend trip away, you
could use it just to go to dinner, whatever you
want to use it for.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It's great, right because genius It kind of forces you
into doing something. You've saved the money. Now the money's there,
you've got to use it, and it stops the worst
part of any group trip, which is the constant transferring
of money between each other after the meals.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Okay, but what if we have a big falling out?
Speaker 1 (32:21):
What then? Oh?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
What like this?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
How about financial abuse? Maybe someone could set up the
bank account then disappear. This is going to be the
next Tinder swindler?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
What happened to my hopeful little mere? Can? I think so,
pessanvely Joy, I think this is genius, as you say, Stacy,
So I have this one girl's trip every year and
people always say I wish I did that, or my
mother's God. But the only reason that happens is because
it is locked in, you know what I mean, Like
it's in the calendar every year. It's not like a
(32:52):
maybe should we where will we? It's like it's happening.
And this is a genius idea because for that very reason,
and even if you don't go away, the idea that
that's the fund that means that if you do go
out for girls dinner or whatever, that will pay for it.
It takes that stress out of it because the worst
thing about the group trip if you do it and
it creeps up and suddenly it's like the flights are
(33:13):
three hundred dollars and you're that is not a moment
when you've got three hundred dollars, then that's the reason
why you go I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, And if you can't go away, you could use
this for other things, like you could just go on
like a group shopping spirit. You could just go to
Mecca together. You know, like it doesn't do you know
how fun would that be to be like free money
shopping spree day. Yeah. So there's lots of ways you
could use and I just think everyone should do it.
I'm setting one up immediately.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
After the break. We have got recommendations for your weekend
and the most fun homework anyone will ever give you ever.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers. Follow the
link in the show notes to get us in your
ears five days a week. And a huge thank you
to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Vibes, I Yah, Atmosphereping, Casualping fun.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
weekend with our very best recommendations, Stacy, why don't you
go first?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Okay, I will. I'm busting to talk about this one.
I want to recommend a show that I feel like
has flown under the radar. So I don't know whether
you'll have seen it, but I love it as much
as I love Friends, and that's a big call. I
think it should be at that level. It's Shrinking.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh, I love Shrinking.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, okay, with Paris and Ford and yes, singy. What's
his name, Jason?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yes, Jason's Paris and Ford Jason Siegel. And it's written
by my imaginary boyfriend, maybe yours too, Holly. In a
weird crossover of our generations. Brett Goldstein, who plays Roy
Kent on Ted Lasso, he wrote this show.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Why it's so good?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's brilliant, and he actually comes in as a cameo.
You'll have to look out.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
And it's about because I've seen a little bit of it.
It's really warm.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It's like a kettle.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Someone's a psychologists.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
All three of the main characters are psychologists that work
in the same practice, but it's a kind of about
their personal lives once they walk out of those sessions.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
What's on your mind today?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Like, I want to change, but I'm not particularly open
to make those changes.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm trying. Every time I get rid of one compulsion,
another compulsion comes up.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Are you yawning right now? Spoiler alert? I feel like
I'm stuck, right How does that make you feel?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Jimmy, where's it's three in the morning?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
What's in that bull?
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Pencils?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
The other bull? Maybe some painkillers? Maybe there's painkillers in there. Yeah,
And it's very fun and warm, but it's also a
bit dark, like Jason Siegel's character has lost his wife
and is dealing with the loss of his wife and
like parenting his teenage daughter through that while he's struggling himself.
So there is some darker things to it. But it
is just the best, and it's one of those shows
that I think is a really good couples show, Like
(36:13):
if you find that you both have very different interests.
This is a show that like crosses over on the
ven diagram.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And where do you watch it?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
It's on Apple. Yeah, two seasons out now and season
three will come out later in the year.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
We watched season one and I loved it, and then
I think I watched like a couple of season two.
But then you know when shows just fall off your
radar for no good reason, So you've reminded me that's
really good. So there's a whole second season.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, second season, and then third will drop soon. So yeah,
it came back on to my radar. I'm now obsessed
and keep telling everyone to watch it.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Holly, how about you? What's your wraco?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
I have a self serving reco this week because Mid
is back, which is the other podcast that I do,
which is Conversations for gen X women who are anything
but Mid because obviously we're not mad at all. That's
the joke of the titles. Clever Anyway. Anyway, we have
come back with six new episodes, and we've got six
(37:06):
conversations with really kick ass guests, and some of them
are really sad, and some of them are really funny,
and some of them really helpful. The one I want
to recommend today, this is personal for me, is that
I'm really trying after Jesse and me, I have been
banging on about it for ages to get my ass
back into a Jim routine and into exercise and into waits.
And so we got doctor Stacy Simson now you might
(37:27):
show her all because she went completely viral when a
few months ago, or maybe even almost a year ago,
when she was on the Mel Robins.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Podcast, we talked about her on out Loud, Yes we did.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
We talked about her on out Loud because she basically
busted all these sort of myths that have been out
there about women and exercise. And she says that you know,
so much of everything we just take for granted, and
the advice we take, whether it's all the way from
intimittent fasting to cold plunging to this to that might
not be harmful or whatever, but all the experimentation on
it's been done by men. It's mind boggling really when
(37:59):
she gets into all that. But what's really helpful about
this episode is if you're like me and your relationship
with exercise and jim work, and this isn't true for
all the times in my life, I go through real phases,
you know, when I'm like really into it, loving it, sick,
feeling fantastic. Then it falls off my radar and then
it just feels like such a punish to get back
(38:19):
to it. She's very much about letting go of all
that bad energy around it and that sort of whipping
yourself in the gym, like working yourself to the bone.
She has really practical, smart advice about what you should do.
She's really practical, she's really feisty. I love her. She's
also the one who went viral for saying that women
shouldn't exercise first thing in the morning on an empty stomach,
(38:41):
and she told everyone to make protein coffee and that
went crazy. And she tells me all about that. I
haven't got around tonight yet. Anyway, if you're like me
and you're trying to literally find your way back to
the gym, seems to have fallen off your internal GPS.
This episode with Dr Stacy Simms is really good and
it's in your feed if you search mid.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I really really like her. I could listen to her
talk all day. My recommendation is something a bit different.
So I have been house sitting at me as well.
She's been away this perks Perks perks pecs and I
came into work the other day and I said, guys,
I have terrible news, and that is that I have
believed for my whole life that expensive hair care is
(39:23):
a ruse. Is absolute, like you don't need the fancy
stuff you need your just supermarket.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Someone told me that once and I've lived by it, right,
and so she.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Used to tell everybody that I used to say cheap
shampoos that go.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, so this is right. I have been using
like the hairspray with the fifteen percent extra that you
get that's basically just chemicals. I've been using that forever. Anyway,
I go to MEAs and the woman, if you want
to know what her current hyperfixation is is hair care.
Because I walked in and went, wow, there are a
lot of products right just for everything.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
And they are the ones who's left behind.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
They're the ones left behind.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I don't know what she's taken, but I was like, okay,
well she'd want me to use it, and she would.
I had Claire's book launch the other week and I
kind of did a little luck hurly my hair and
I was like, what shall we use? And I thought, oh, look,
Kevin Murphy, there we go. I'll treat myself and I'll
use it. Kevin Murphy called bedroom hair and I used
it lovely smell and is.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It like astrising spray?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
And I recognized the smell because I went, oh, this
is what when I've had my hair done for TV
and stuff, this is what they've used, so it must
be really good. And I went and I was like
it didn't have the crunchy and I always have the
crunchy thing and then I kind of brush it out
and it falls and whatever. But I was like, Oh,
this is holding really really well. And then I went
to bed that night work up Victoria's Secret Angel. I
(40:46):
was like, amazing. And I came to work and I
was like, I think I look amazing. It held. I
think it would have held for days right, Like it
was so good. And when I use like you know,
supermarket hair spray, it is like the next day it's
not pretty, like it's wiry and it's just like I've
got to wash it to get all the gunk out.
(41:07):
But this is I looked it up because I didn't
purchase it. It's forty nine to ninety five, which feels
like a lot for a text rising spray, but it is.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So And do do you have to use a lot
to make it happen?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (41:19):
No, like a.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Tiny little beer And it's like you wouldn't even need
it on a curl, but like even if you were
just doing the front of your hair and you wanted
to kind of get a little bit of volumeizing or something.
It's it's really good. And I've also been doing I
had to wear a white shirt the other night and
I had foundation on and I used me as hair
spray trick because she says you have to spray hair
spray on your collar so that you don't get makeup
on it. So I've been using all her products and
(41:41):
they're really good.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I love it amazing. Or a homework, homework, homework, Oh yes,
our homework out louders. This won't be any surprise coming
from me. But the Victoria Beckham documentary is out on
Netflix now and we are dying to talk about it.
But we want you to all have watched it so
that we can talk about it together.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You haven't even watched it, and you've come in with
theories about radical acceptance.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Radical acceptance. I've told you all about it. This is
what we'll be talking about next week. Friends, about you
any money? Anyway? You need to go and watch the
Victoria Beckham documentary so that we can all hold hands
and talk about it together next week. You know it's
going to make my week.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I could just We're giving you a whole weekend like
you got time.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
A massive thank you to all of you out louders
for being with us here on today's show and for
being with us all week, and to our fabulous team
for helping us put it together. Read this out, won't you?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Our group executive producer is Ruth Devine, executive producer is Sashatanic,
our senior audio producer is Leah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Porges, video producer is Josh Green, and our junior content
producers are Coco and Tessa.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Friends. Are you in the squeeze stage of life? On
Parenting out Loud? This week, Mon's Amelia and Stacy are
back with a new episode that asks that question and
many more. Remember Parenting out Loud drops every Saturday morning.
It's in its own feed. You can find it by
searching Parenting out Loud and then tapping follow so you
(43:09):
never miss an episode of the smart parenting Chat.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Momma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description
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