The Questionable Brilliance Of The 'Lemon Law'

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a Mother and Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Maya before we start
the show. Yeah, I was going to send you a
photo last night and then I chickened out. So what
happened is I went to like one of my op
shops and I bought this top. I wasn't sure, so
I went to get my phone from another room, which
meant I had to walk past local in the top

(00:35):
and he said, what are you wearing? And then he said,
when they make a comment, you know it's bad. And
he said, do you have a parrot to go with
that pirate top? That's a bit me. So I went
to take a photo to go, well, I'm sending a
photo to me because she'll tell me whether it's cool
and trendy or if I can't ever wear this outside.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
The house my fashion opinion, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
And so I took a photo and then I looked
at the photo and went, I can't send.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
This to show it to me now, So I thought
I'd show it to you now. Oh can I see?
So it's not the ruffles that's the problem. It's the
very high neck with your very big bosoms.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, is I thought that much.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
The three of us are women of a certain bus size.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's just not right, and it's not the top's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's not the top's fault.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
It would look great on someone.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
So what the problem is because it's ruffled around the
neck and it then means that it sort of pleats
out to the boob line and it just makes you
look like you have a mono boob. You got to
show skin.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Do you think I look like a pirate?

Speaker 1 (01:36):
No, not a pirate.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
He also said that I looked like something out of
Annie the Musical, and then Luna started shouting Annie Annie,
and I was like, I'm just being bullied in this home,
and I can't be bullied by Maya too, not at an.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
I know, I'm broadly supportive. I like that you tried.
Thank you, but I think you should free its future
maybe to be with someone else.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Okay, you know, yeah, yeah that one. No, I think
I think you're right. Okay, I'm glad. I asked, welcome
to Mamma out loud, what women are actually talking about?
On Friday, the nineteenth of September. I'm Jesse Stevens's.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Amelia Lester, and I'm mea Friedman, and here's what's on
our agenda for today.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
The real reason why your skincare routine and all your
makeup is getting way more expensive.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Plus, I've got a dating rule which can actually apply
to all sorts of areas of life. But it's either
completely brilliant or downright cruel, and I can't tell, so
we need to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
People love your dating stories, oh good, a lot of them. Foolishly,
some people think that you only like to talk about
smart things, but it's not true. You love dating story. Also,
we've got some recommendations for your weekend, including an unhinged
celebrity doco, a book from Amelia about the love story
in an unlikely place, and a sheep and I'll get

(02:54):
to that later, but first, in case you missed it,
I'm going on holidays tomorrow. And that's not the part
that you might have missed, but I wanted to share
with you too, travel trends, because you know, I like
a trend in any aspect of my life. The first
is that soft reset holidays have become a thing, and
a soft reset holiday is like a peaceful, low key getaway.

(03:19):
So it's the opposite of like a raucous girl's trip. Oh, Like, yeah,
it's about nature, it's about rest. It's an emphasis on
mental health and just doing calm things, not being overscheduled.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
It's girls gone mild, ah gone mild.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
It's not cities with a packed itinery. It's the opposite
of that.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
I've also had the term sleepcation, which is apparently very
big between twenty five to thirty five year olds, and
I'm like, look, I'm in that demo. I'm like, we
should have more energy than that, but apparently people just
going for like a good night's late for a week.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
The way that is crystallized for me is the anecdote
in an article about it, which said that there was
a woman who was quoted in the article who went
to Paris and instead of hitting up the museums and
doing all the sites, she just did nothing but sitting
cafes all day. Oh, And I thought, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay, guys, you'll be shocked to hear that this is what.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
My holiday is, sitting in cafes just watching people.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, because you know, I had this thing I want
to go to Copenhagen. I've just been like, I want
to go to Copenhagen. Not even sure quite where it is,
but I want to go there and I just want
to sit in cafes. I'll be doing that. I'm going
to Paris for a few days and then I'm going
to a wedding in Pulia. And I've got nothing planned.
Apart from the wedding, I've got nothing scheduled.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
You don't strike me as someone who is intero scheduling
your holidays. Oh no, is this new for you. I
don't do tourist attractions. I feel claustrophobic. I just like
to go to a city spend a decent amount of
time there. I don't really like being in the country.
I don't like retreats or anything.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
But I like to go into a city and I
like to pretend that I live there and just live
like a local and find a cafe that I like,
build a routine.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I have found this because the first time, Like,
I love travel, It's one of my favorite things. And
when I first go to a place, I have all
the lists, like I have to go. I'm ultimate tourist.
I've got my backpack. Really yeah, I've got my hat,
I've got my like I need to go to this
museum and this landmarkt Well, I go and I have
my first for example, Rome, go and just tick it

(05:17):
all off. I went to Rome for a second time
a few years ago, and that was so much better
because I ticked off all the great things and I
got to have my slowation thing where I just got
to walk around and just exist and enjoy Rome without
having to run from place to place.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's a soft recess, it's a soft research.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
What's your other trend.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Well, this one I'm really into as well. It's tattourism.
So it's people getting tattoos as mementos when they travel.
Instead of a fridge magnet or a snow globe or
maybe a T shirt, they're getting a little thing. So
for example, they might get a hibiscus if they go
to Hawaii, or they might get some columns.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
If you're going to do that, because I obviously I
saw some tattooist in one of the articles say your
body is like your passport.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Get so it's using your the airport.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
I just want to make that.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Might just get a bar code or a QR code
on my body.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Mia just profers up her forearm. You have a tattoo
on your forearm. I'm wondering, when you get a tout.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
And I've got a tramp stamp, do you want to
say it?

Speaker 3 (06:21):
No, it's okay. You could get someone with your bum
and appropriate. Oh yeah, nice.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's definitely an offensive symbol that doesn't mean what you
think it means.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
In another lane, where it was the most basic bitch
tattoo you could get, it was like when I turned thirty,
I'm like, I just want something a bit as tech
on my lower back.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
So I've always wanted a tattoo. I actually have tattoo
regret in the other way. You know how some people
regret their tattoos. I regret never getting a tattoo too late.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
My friend, I got this one on my forearm a
couple of years ago. Think when I turned fifty I
got it?

Speaker 3 (06:53):
And do you like looking at it or does it
ever even?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Oh no, I forget that it's even there.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
I read recently that tattoos are back because we're having
a backlash to this clean girl aesthetic that we've had
over the last few years, which is a center part
and the no makeup makeup, and yep, we're having.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Stamps are coming with.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
It's been a mess with some messy I make up
a side part and one hundred tattoos.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
And the way young people get tattoos the gen Z's
is that they just get little things here and there
like that have particular significance, almost like little doodles. Like
their body ends up looking like a little dool. I mean,
you don't want to go overboard, but once you've crossed
the rubicon and got your first, it is a bit addictive.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
I have to say, I reckon, it's better than the landfill.
It's better than the landfill of just getting your fridge
magnets everywhere.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, so let's see what I come back with. I
tried to collect fridge magnets once. My husband doesn't like clutter,
so I collected too, and he didn't realize that I
was starting a collection and he chucked them out. Oh yeah,
so tattoos it is.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Then, Has anyone else noticed that makeup, skincare, the beauty
industry in general seems to be getting more expensive. So
you walk in and you're just getting your Like, tell me,
won't you found out not getting cheaper? It's certainly not
getting cheaper. Well, I came across the most interesting insight
this week in Justine Cullen's newsletter. She is the format

(08:09):
are in chief of L magazine in Style, so she's
just she's very savvy and here's what she laid out.
So you might have noticed. I'm sure we've talked about
it here. The tweens have swarmed on Mecca and Sophora.
They have made it their own. You walk in now
and they're running around. They got their fingers and the
testers they're using their Drunk Elephant glow recipe Summer Friday's

(08:34):
all of those that used to be ours and they
love it. They have an eleven step routine and like,
Drunk Elephant is not an inexpensive brand, right, but something
about it very expensive, very expensive, and it's like the
aesthetic of it I think really appeals, like the packaging
and so.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
If you're not familiar with Drunk Elephant. Lip balms in
Australia start at about thirty dollars and the skincare sort
of goes up to about two point fifty. The containers
are white and then the lids are bright colors like
fluoro pre amazing, yeah, like lollies yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
And it has like a great night cream and serum
and it's got all that kind of stuff, and they're
probably stoked because they've got this new market right, But
adult women do not want to be using the same
products as their twelve year old daughters or their eight
year old niece. So Collen's theory is that the tween
takeover of beauty is partly to blame for this wave

(09:26):
we're seeing in ultra expensive beauty products hitting the shells,
I mean ultra ultra So Louis Vuitton has launched a
beauty brand. They're one of the latest sort of luxury
brands to move into the beauty space, and they launched
a lipstick for two hundred and sixty five dollars, like
a Chanelle lipstick I think is like sixty.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
We should add that they have this whole thing about
how you can refill it and it's leather. But it's
so undclear doing that.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
And you know that I cannot pronounce this may or
maybe you can, Mason Francis Kirk, Well, you know the
perfume brand.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Oh yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
I've read it a thousand times. I can't say it.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
They've released Francis, I've never it out loud.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah, but like I recognize the spelling Anyway, They've
released a collector's edition of their cult fragrance, and it's
said to smell like sex and money, which is very
not twain right, but it retails at forty two thousand dollars.
Sorry what dollars? So I suppose the brand problem for
your Mecca and your Sephora and the brands at stocks
is how do we retain our adult customers while also

(10:33):
serving this new massive market of tweens. May you're a
business expert.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Well, do you think I'm in business?

Speaker 2 (10:43):
You just spend a lot of time in Mechaste real.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Oh yeah, it's my happy place and Sophora. So in
the US, there's a store called Alta Beauty, which is, like,
put it in context, Amelia.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Alters a little bit down market of Sephora.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, but it's the same kind of vibe. Right, So
they're offering tween parties there. Oh, you can go and
you can have your party, and the thing like McDonald's.
You're like McDonald's exactly. The big mistake that Drunk Elephant
made when the Twins discovered their brand was to pander
to that and say, oh, this is a whole earlier

(11:20):
entry to the pipeline of our customer. We're going to
lean hard into advertising on TikTok, We're going to use influences.
So even though they didn't specifically market to twins, they
went where twins were and their marketing was designed to
appeal to tweens. The problem with that among many is firstly,
their products aren't designed for twins, So the twins are

(11:42):
going to have some bad reactions to the products and
guess where they're going to share them on social media
because those kinds of products made for adult skin have
a lot of actives in them and twins don't need that.
The second thing is, i mean, apart from the cost,
the big mistake that people make, and this is what
drunk Elephant did, is that you don't pitch at the
customer you've got, you pitch a little bit above. Because

(12:02):
twins don't want something for tweens. That's why they like
drunk Elephant in the first place. Right, So what happened
was also, as you said, Jesse, you're in Sephora, you're
in Mecca, you're at the fancy place, and you're getting
jostled by literally a bunch of kids in school uniforms.
Suddenly you're like this isn't my brand.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
This isn't a luxury experience.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I didn't belong here. And also just like this brand
doesn't embody me, because let's be honest, like beauty products,
they're all very similar, maybe with very similar ingredients. We're
buying into a brand which says something about us. And
the other thing about tweens is that they're incredibly fickle.
So they're into that and now they're not, so there
is no pipeline. It's not like they then become lifelong
customers of Drunk Elephant and so Drunk Elephants sales were

(12:45):
down twenty five percent in twenty twenty four and in
the first quarter of this year they were down sixty
five percent. So because they've lost all those older customers
and the twins have gone, they've screwed themselves.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
So did you know that, I think it's jen Alpha
and it's six to twelve year olds. Girls are the
biggest consumers of beauty and makeup in the world.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
I discovered this the other day because I went to
see a primary school musical put on by year five
and six kids and it was about an excursion that
they took to Canbra.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
I thought, you can say to the Fort, and all.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
Of the songs were referencing how the girls had to
do their skincare routines while they were on the road
and while they were on school camp. And I thought
back to when I went on school count to Canbra
and I definitely didn't even bring my Saint Ives peach
scrub with me, let alone, like worry about doing it toothbrush.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
It was a good yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
So that's when I it kind of hit me that
this is a real thing. But I want to throw
another wild cut in here, because I think Justine Cullen's
point is really smart. But also where does K beauty
fit into this? Because W Beauty and other K beauty
emporiums are exploiting all across Australia and now increasingly in
the US too.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
So they're all the Korean beauty. So they're bringing.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
Korean beauty products to the West. And because there's so
much intense competition in Korea, the innovation is so furious.
The prices have been driven down because there's so much competition.
Skin care as kind of a national pastime in South Korea,
and as a result, I'm finding myself increasingly turned into
K beauty products because they're better priced, and yet they're

(14:26):
on the cutting edge. So I'm wondering how these Western
luxury beauty brands like a Lois Vouton see that dynamic
with K Beauty.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
It's also I was reading that K Beauty, which is
so much on the rise, is about preventative and almost
more simplified ingredients, whereas a lot of other products are
about treating issues. I mean, now, adults seem very into
K Beauty, but it'll be a matter of time before
those shops too, are swarming, especially if they're at a

(14:56):
cheaper price point.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well what's so funny about those shops? Do you ever
go into them? No? Yeah, so I've started, as suggested
by Lee Campbell. There's one near our new office, so
I've started to go. I know you've been doing it
for a while. I was quite late to it. What's
interesting is that like all the packaging and all the
marketing is all like for babies, Like it's very like.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Lectures are bouncy and yeah, mousy, and.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
It's like stars and unicorns and fairy floss and sparkly
like almost fairies. So it almost looks like play makeup.
And that's where the adult women are going and the
young women or the young girls are going to supporth
buying the expensive products. The other funny thing that's happened
that's talked about a lot less is that when there

(15:42):
was this big move towards skincare for twins, and there
were all these think pieces written about what does it mean?
And isn't this terrible? Young boys, teenage boys were moving
to Fragrance. And this is something that I thought was
just random in my house because my younger son was
really into Fragrance for a couple good couple of years.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
And we're not talking ex bodies pray, are we No.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
We're not talking links. We're talking about like full on
like the Yeah, the best thing to ever do if
you don't know what to say to someone young is
to go, what's on your TikTok? What's on your for
you page? And because everybody's is different, and it's a
good way to open a conversation. And I remember asking
him at one point a few years ago and he said, Oh,
I'm on Fragrance TikTok. So they just sort of get
led down and discover these new things, and I thought, oh,

(16:25):
this is just really sort of maybe unique to him.
A lot of his mates. They would go to David
Jones after school and it would just be packed with
teenage boys in school uniform.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
That's a great point about fragrance on TikTok because young
people really have embraced that idea of learning and exploring
about perfumes on TikTok Frankrance talk, which the fragrance companies
were all flabbergasted by. They thought that their business was
over when life moved online. But brands like Flour, which
I know has just come to Australia which has this
real cult fragrance called missing Person, that was kind of

(16:57):
the first of the TikTok perfumes to be embraced.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
So this is my theory though, because I think back
to the products I used as a teen, so we
were begin to impulse the body Spray Skulls edition. Did
you get absolutely? Absolutely? And I can still smell the
you know, changing after pe class and you can smell
the impulse. Right, I am now revolted by products I

(17:21):
used as a team, like I could not pay.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
There's a real stigma.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
There's a stigma that it's like every life stage I
enter into, I go I need my brands to reflect
who I am. So this idea that there's a lifelong pipeline,
I think, as you say, Mia, I don't think it's
true because I think what we use at one stage
we actually certainly do not want to use later. And
the tween group, I find is not a real category.

(17:48):
It's an advertising category that's been made up to target
a new group of people that are actually children, like
eight year old the children, let's be real. And what
I worry about with the skincare thing is, I know
it's age twelve, but probably at about thirteen or fourteen,
my skin issue was acne, hormonal acne. Right, these products
are not going to help you with acne. There was

(18:10):
nothing topical to put on my skin at fourteen that
was going to make my skin look better. And going
into those shops and seeing the pawless, you know, often
lots of cosmetic enhancements filtered, would have made me feel
so bad. And in fact, I just think.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
What do you think they're scrolling on their phones constantly.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Exactly exactly right. And so I had mess knives Apricots scrub,
which probably did no good anyway, but I.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Think it was granules of sampos.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
It was, but I don't think I really believed I
was a skincare routine away from having glass skin like
I never truly believed that. So I worry that, in fact,
a lot of these products are making the skin of
this demographic worse rather than better. Whereas where they are, Yeah,
whereas in attitude adati pigmentation of fine lines, you can
kind of use a few things that doesn't disappear, but

(18:59):
that kind of helps.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
On the other hand, I mean, look, we knew nothing
about how to take care of our skin, as discussed
with the same knives, And if they're getting more serious
about some protection inarticular from an early age, if for
nothing else for vanity reasons, I don't think that's necessarily
bad thing. But I just want to return to your
idea of the stigma, because I find that so interesting
and true. I used to love glow Recipe, yeah, and

(19:21):
now I just feel like I cannot use it because
it's one of those tween brands and it reminds me
me of when you were editing women's magazines. Isn't that
that same principle of your kind of pretending that the
reader is a little bit older and more advanced than
they are yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
So if the reader that you want to hit, your
target customer is between eighteen and twenty four, as it
was on Cosmo, for example, our creative bullseye would be
twenty seven.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
So here's my question, right, because the same thing happens
with clothes. I walk around and I go, I would
not enter that shop because that shop is me at fifteen.
Women don't want to be shopping at the same shop
as Dotty Daughter Rights exactly. They wouldn't. So if you're
Macrosophora or you're a beauty giant, what's your answer in
this climate? Are you making a store specifically for tweens

(20:08):
so that your other shop can exist as a luxury
quiet moment for an adult.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
No, because they don't want to be in the kids store.
They want to be the big table. That's the whole point.
Oh yeah, that's the whole point.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Because there's all these products. Now, Like there was a
beauty brand launch just in the US. I think last
week eighty thousand tweens showed up because it was an
influencer that they kind of related with. But they're getting
behind brands like nothing else. So I just I'm really
interested in what happens in the next six to twelve months,
when increasingly women who have money to spend are getting

(20:41):
elbowed out of Sephora by twelve.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Year old and when they go to the K beauty store. Me,
I do want to ask you about this. As the
business brain at the table, I cannot even open Excel
without getting stressed out. So this is on you.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
She can't either to be clean.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Given that cave beauty is taking over amongst adult women,
what do you think that pushed a really high end
differentiation from the western cosmon experience?

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Is about?

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Is it that they're saying, Look, this isn't about skin care.
You know, it's not about skin care. It's not about
the ingredients, it's not about the technology. It's about the status.
And it's essentially selling skincare like a handbag. Is that it?

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, it's the same reason why the Row, which is
Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen's brand, is selling thongs for
eight hundred or nine hundred dollars and they're branding and
they're sold out, and they're not made of gold. They're
just thongs. They're just rubber thongs. The margins obviously are
much much higher when you have a higher price point

(21:36):
your audience is smaller, like your target market is smaller.
But there are certain people of brands that will use
a higher price point to better distinguish their audience. So
their audience is smaller, but it's more targeted, I guess.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
And it's not the audience that's necessarily looking for the
most cutting edge formulation. They're an audience that wants to
show off the leather lipstick from Louis Vuitton.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
I think the most squeezed part of the market is
going to be that middle market, because you've got the
you know, cheap brands, you've got the real prestige brands.
But that middle market can get a little bit murky
because is it kind of for everyone. Sometimes when you're
for everyone, you're for no one. So at the top
you've got you know, your fenties and the makeup artist

(22:22):
brands and your drunk elephants and stuff, and then there
are some fantastic lower end, But it's those sort of
middle ones that could be a little bit lost.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
And apparently a big thing for tweens because there's this
culture of empties and there's this culture of obviously filming
your routine. It is so much about packaging, like they
are so much more drawn to packaging than older women
who are maybe more about the ingredients or more about
the effectiveness.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Out louders. In a moment, I want to introduce you
to the Lemon law, and we're going to decide whether
it's actually a fair way to treat other people.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
After this, out.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Louders, we've got a listener dilemma and we need your
collective wisdom to help us and our partners UI to
solve it. Please, Okay, here's the problem from our listener.
I haven't read this yet, so wish me luck. My
husband and I have been planning a week long beach
holiday with our two young kids for months. We've saved up,
booked a lovely rental house, and I've been so looking
forward to some proper family time together, just the four

(23:26):
of us. Last week, my mother in law, Oh, I see, wealie.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
I didn't write this nice. We throw the two kids
in need to cover that.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Last week my mother in law called and casually mentioned
she'd looked up a her accommodation online and thought it
looked divine. Then she announced she'd found it nearby B
and B and would pop over to join us for
the week. She didn't ask, she just told us like
it was already decided. This was supposed to be our
first proper family holiday in two years. And my mother
in law is lovely, but she has strong opinions about everything,

(23:59):
and last time she joined us for a weekend away,
I felt like I was hosting rather than relaxing. I
feel attacked. My husband thinks it's fine and says I'm
being selfish, but I desperately need this break. The last
time I tried to have a conversation with my mother
in law about boundaries, it added in tears and weeks
of frosty phone calls. She accused me of trying to
keep her away from her family, and my husband took

(24:19):
her side to keep the peace. So now I'm stuck.
Do I bite my tongue and accept our family holidays ruined?
Do I risk another confrontation or is this my husband's
responsibility since it's his mother. He keeps saying that I
should just let it go, like the song? Am I
being unreasonable? And how do I handle this without causing
family chaos? The question is, Jesse, what do you do next?

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Look to be clear, it's Lucra and I trying to
get on your holidays most of the time, rather than
you're trying to get on ours. My first reaction to
this was free childcare. Like, it does sound like she's around.
You could go and get a cocktail with your husband,
which is nice. I don't know how you say no.
I don't know how once she's booked it and she's coming,
how you just create that conflict. I wouldn't know how

(25:06):
to deal with it.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
I think you can't amere, can't. You can't.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
It's done, she's coming.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
And I also think maybe the family holiday is ruled.
I think it's ruined for the person. For the listener,
I understand that it's not the holiday that she wanted.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
It's about her expectations.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, so I think it's a matter of resetting expectations
and finding ways to milk the hell out of the
mother in law being around.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
And you're right, like, take a nice dinner out with
your husband. What she wouldn't have gotten to have if
she wasn't there, Or.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
She sounds kind pissed off at her husband. So let
your mother in law, your husband, and the two kids
have a holiday and have your own holiday.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Go have a spa day, Go do a soft dray set. Yeah,
get a travel tattoo.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I love it. Out loud is what would you do next?
Share your thoughts in the mummea out loud Facebook group
and if you have a dilemma, please send it to
us at out loud at mummea dot com dot au.
We would love to help you.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
We know those mother in law questions are very popular,
so you know that's our special area of expertise, isn't it, Jesse.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Can we come to Copenhagen with you?

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah? No, go away? Okay.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
I want to tell you about a thing called the
lemon lore, and it comes up originally in dating, but
I'm finding myself increasingly able to apply it to all
sorts of areas of my life. I think a good
way to illustrate it is by telling you a little
bit of a story. And it's a true story. It's
about a TikToker named Mac Mak. She she was really

(26:32):
excited to go on a date with a guy called Josh.
He was an electrician. I'm just throwing in that detail
so you can sort of picture Josh in your head.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, yeah, it gives us some color.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Exactly what did Mac do?

Speaker 2 (26:41):
He's handy.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Mac's a TikToker. I don't know if that's her profession
or what, but she was really excited to go on
the state. She even like did the thing where you
get out the diceon and you like straighten the hair,
she put on the makeup. Now, Josh had to drive
forty minutes to pick her up. Maybe he lives in
another town or something. He pulls into her driveway, she
grabs a purse, she runs down the stairs, she gets

(27:03):
in the car to drive to dinner, and five minutes
later they're pulling up into her driveway again and he's
dropped her off. The date has ended five minutes into it.
Mac was really devastated by this, and I totally understand
that she went on TikTok, and she told her followers,
I'm never attempting to put myself out there again. And
you know what, fair, Mac, Fair like that sounds like
a really upsetting experience. But what happened next is interesting

(27:27):
because rather than just everyone agreed this was unacceptable, there
started to be a schism in the comments and some
people were saying that this was in fact the Lemon
law in action. The Lemon law is something that comes
from How I Met your Mother. I mean, I didn't
think anything came from that TV show, but this comes
from that TV show. And the idea is that from
the moment a date begins, you have five minutes to

(27:50):
decide whether you're going to commit to it or not.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Wow, that's brutal.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Can we just go back to Mac in the car?
Do we know what happened in the car in those
first five minutes?

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Unfortunately it's a TikTok. So I wasn't able to ask
any follow ups to Mac. But people in the comments
were like not surprised by this. There was not a
lot of sympathy for it. People like this is the
lemon law in action. You gotta deal with it. Like
why is it called the lemon law because in the
US there's some laws around being able to return used
cars when they're they're lemons.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Wow. I thought it was because the minute that you
put it in your mouth, you're like, oh.

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Well that works too.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's ruthless in dated you know?

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Okay, So first of all I want to ask you both,
like is that okay in dating? And then I want
to like throw some other scenarios at you and get
your reaction.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
I think it's completely inappropriate and mean and rude. I
disagree if you stick with someone for longer than five minutes, Like,
what's the worst it's going to do. It's different if
the person's racist or something, but if the person's just
not someone you think you're going to marry. Oh, you
might have a conversation with someone.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
Both your times and I have how taliable. But when
when you meet someone you are lying if you say
that you don't basically immediately know whether you're going to
get along with them or not particularly romantically, because it's
all about the chemistry and the get along with them
or want to have sex cramones because they're different.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, and don't you reckon, Amelia. I think about myself
the first five minutes of a date, the worst version
of myself. Like, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Sorry, Jessie, but dating is not a charity like lucky,
it's about finding compatibility.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Me.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Where are you on this?

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Wow? I think it's really really interesting. All I can
say about Max is that it's lucky that she didn't
drive the forty minutes. That's true. I mean it's very brutal.
I can understand making the decision in your own head. Yeah,
but look, I also think Max's future is freed because

(29:48):
someone who would be that callous she would not want
to be with.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Okay, but I want to push back on this idea
that you're necessarily callous if you practice the Lemon law.
So when I was dating, the thing that I found
the most awful about it is that you go out
with someone and in an effort to move the conversation
along and get through two drinks together. Because that's what
usually the duration of a date. Two drinks, You've got
to volunteer a lot of stuff about yourself because that's

(30:14):
just how conversation works over the court, Like two drinks
is basically ninety minutes.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Let's say in the first five it depends on fast
you drink, but in the first five minutes you've got a.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
But my point is that you go for those two drinks,
you kind of know from the get go that it's
not going to work. You end up going home drunk, tired,
and crucially like you've given too much of yourself. You've
disclosed too much in the name of just simple politeness.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
So you're also emotionally vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yes, I appreciate that, but I would also say that
if I'd given my husband five minutes, I might have left,
like I might have left on really basic, superficial things
in the same way I would have swiped the wrong
way on him, like I don't believe in love at
first sight. For a lot of people, A lot of
people say it took a long time to warm up.

(31:03):
Sometimes I reckon, you need more than five minutes. However,
what I do agree with you on is that that
first date needs to be either a single coffee or
a single drink. A single coffee, yeah, I just because
I think it's the meal. It's when you sit down
front and the person orders an entrede and you go,
this is a waste of time.

Speaker 3 (31:21):
And even one drink or one coffee, you're gonna end
up talking about like your life to this perfect stranger
who you know you're never going to see again, and
at the end of it, you feel really exposed, and
you you end up feeling like you've given too much
of yourself to a perfect stranger who probably decided in
the first five minutes that he never wanted to see
me again.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Can I ask about what happens in the flip way,
because there are a lot of people that can put
on a good game for five minutes or nineteen minutes
or two weeks or even three months, and then you
see what they're really like. So the Lemon law certainly
doesn't help reward that. It rewards that.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
It awards people who can turn on a quick little
stand up performance.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
More rewards people who can turn on a quick performance.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
For I wish what if you're a bit introverted, what
if you're a bit shy? Like I know a lot
of people who had bad first dates and things improved well.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
I don't think no individuals necessarily expecting the person that
are on a date with to start tap dancing in
the first five minutes. But in the first five minutes.
It's not saying like, if you're shy, then by definition
someone's going to leave. I think it's about compatibility, and
that's something that you can kind of sense.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Did you ever do it?

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Did you? I wish I.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Had, because that's what really I found the most emotionally
draining thing about putting myself out there again and again
was this feeling of like too many people know too
much stuff about me that they never needed to know.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
You know, Malcolm Gladwell has this thing that he calls
thin slicing. It was in one of his books and
he says it's something that we all do all the time,
which is exactly sounds like this Lemon law. Right. It
is when you meet someone and you make very quick assumptions,
and the thin slicing, it's kind of like you take

(33:11):
a thin slice of I'm not good with I think
presumably yeah, I'm not big on deli meats, but like
a thin slice, you get the taste of it. Right,
So if you're sampling something, But what we do is
we do it automatically.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
And is he saying that's good.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
He's not saying it's good about it. That it's just
what we do. It's about making snap judgments. Now, sometimes
they're wrong, but usually they're when you thin slice without
even realizing it. Oftentimes will say I feel funny in
my gut, or I've got a good gut feeling. So
we all often talk about our gut, right, And what
a gut means is really just all your thoughts and
your experiences and knowledge up until that point in your

(33:48):
life enables us to make quick judgments because prehistorically, when
you were in the wilderness and whatever you couldn't just
go you know what, I'm just going to give this.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
So that my theory about the Lemon law is that
it is perfect for people who trust their gut. You know,
people are a really strong gut feeling that they just know,
and they're quite impulsive, but they trust themselves. I don't
have that. I don't trust my gun at all, and
so I like to question it.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
And that's why you're saying, if you and Luca had
met through like a dating app and you'd use the
Lemon law, you probably would have.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Exactly exactly, and same with lots of experiences, whether it's
a friendship or a job interview or a whatever. Like
I think I'd have made the wrong decision. But maybe
if you back yourself a bit more, then maybe the
type of person who could me you seem to trust
your gun.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, it's often and wrong. Yeah, you'self and wrong.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
I want to broaden this out and ask about other
life scenarios and whether we think it's more or less acceptable.
And the first example that springs to mine is books.
Do you have to finish a book that you pick
up or can you read the first chapter and say
it aside.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
My Lemon law books all the time.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
I do not have time.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
To and you know what, I'm probably am wrong sometimes
like where I just go, I'm not going to invest
any more time.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
It's hard, though, isn't it? Because I hate the first
two chapters of every book I've ever read, because I
hate having to learn new characters world. I just want
to be in it. I want to have that flow.
But my kindle should actually just be called Lemon Law
because it is just full and I think sometimes.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
I get one page in I go don't like the writing, well,
that character.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
It's right because it's like scroll, scroll, not interested two seconds.
We know this from working in social media. You have
to grab people in the first paragraph. And that's why
writing online has really changed writing and reporting in journalism,
because it used to be that you could sidle up
to a point in a written article, and now you can't.
You've got to get it in the first.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
I say to Luka with television shows, I'm like, we're
going to give it ten minutes. We're going to give
it exactly ten minutes. More to side, Amelia, do you
Lemon Law books?

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, I've got a caveat on Lemon Louring books and
a bit of clickbait. Later on in this episode, I'm
going to recommend a book that I wanted to lemon
law and didn't, So I actually think with books there's
less of a strong argument that you should be able
to lemon law, because really writers should be given the
respect of trusting that, like, not everything's going to be
revealed in that first chapter, And particularly with nonfiction books,

(36:13):
one trap I see is that the first chapter is
often the chapter that they sold the book on, and
you can kind of tell because it sort of reads
like a little bit like a movie trailer. This is
going to be a book full of intrigue and suspense,
and it's like selling you on the book. And I'm
turned off by that, but I understand that that was
what they needed to sell the book, and I'm going

(36:33):
to get beyond that that's just a nonfiction thing.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
I just can't imagine looking at someone in the eye
in the vulnerability of a date and just going you
know what, Like I can kind of get.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
The same day point that it's actually potentially a kind
of thing to do, because it means that this person
sitting opposite you isn't just disclosing all this information about
themselves and opening themselves up to you when you've already
decided you're not interested.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, but all that you can think is I must
look terrible because you know in five minutes.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
That's why it's five minutes, not five seconds. Like I
have a friend who tells a horrible story about when
she went on a day and she was sitting at
a long bar and it had big windows out on
the street, and she was texting with the guy who
she had met on an app or something, and it
was clear that he showed up to the restaurant, saw
her and then said like he wasn't going to be
able to make it. That's not lemon law. That's not

(37:26):
lemon law. Five minutes is actually a lot of conversation.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
So merely, here's my question. I've actually been in a
lot of workish situations where I've sat down with someone
in a professional capacity to talk about something, and I
have known within two minutes that I can tell interviews
where I've just gone.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Oh no, in the first five minutes.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
So in that situation, I'm imagining, you know, I'm sitting
in a cafe or whatever, what am I meant to
say when the five minutes is up?

Speaker 1 (38:00):
So that's why.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
I think it's different for different scenarios. I think that
with job interviews there is less of a reason to
do it because the person sitting opposite you, Yes, they
put a suit on and they're spending half an hour
with you, but no one's disclosing personal information. No one's
opening up in a way that will make them feel
vulnerable and hurt afterwards. What do you think, ma'a?

Speaker 1 (38:19):
I just want to always try and treat people with kindness.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
And I think job interviews it's important to just sit
it out.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
So how about the date though? How about if I
show up on the date and I go, Nah, this
isn't for me and I'm five minutes in. What am
I saying to get out?

Speaker 3 (38:32):
I don't know because I've never I've never done it
like this is.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
New Lennon lawing you or am I making an emergency?

Speaker 3 (38:39):
And Mac was clearly very upset, And I don't want
to minimize that at all. Like maybe there isn't a
way to do it that's that's kind.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
I would feel, Oh.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
No, there isn't clear, there is no way to do
it in a way that's kind. It feels dismissive, it
feels clinically efficient.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
Even if it's like ultimately better for you, it's still
going to hurt so much more in the moment, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
After the break, I need to tell you about a
sheep and his name is Kevin.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of MUMMYA
Out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link in
the show notes to get your daily doseph out Loud
and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun. This is my
best recommendation. It's Friday, so we're going to help set
up your weekend with our best recommendations. I'm going to
go first, and I've got two because I haven't been
here for a while. Okay, the first I discovered last night.
It is Kevin the sheep, and I will have it.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
On the record before you go into this that you've
been calling him a goat all morning and you needed
to be fact checked. And someone said in the script
I just saw a note that was maya, this is
a sheep.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, it's a furry, like an animal with anyway, it's
an animal on a farm. Apologies, we're all out louders.
Kevin the sheep is owned by a woman whose name
I no. She's a young woman. She's in New Zealand,
I assume by her accent. Her account is called Lunatic
Dot Asylum six and she rescues unwanted sheep and land.

(40:21):
She's got about five or six and she's got one
called Kevin, who she's had since he was little. And
Kevin is really cranky, and Kevin tries to head butt her,
but like all the time, Kevin is a really naughty sheep,
and it's just funny, Like she'll just be trying to
feed the sheep and Kevin, she'll just go have a listen.

(40:43):
I can tell he's in a violent mood this morning.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
I may it.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Is so good, you can't. I mean, I know this
is not a visual meeting, but Kevin is like chasing
her around the paddock trying to ahead butt her. It
just made me laugh so much. I think we all
need a little bit of mindless distraction at the moment.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Remember our former producer Liza Ratlift, her family who weren't regional.
They adopted a cow who lost its mum and dad
named Joe. And remember Joe. We followed Joe's updates, and
Joe believed because Joe was looked after and fed, and
they looked after Joe, Joe thought he was a dog.

(41:27):
So Joe lived on the Verandah behaved like a dog.
And then when they tried to reunite Joe with other cows,
he was like, these are cows. Why would I hang
out with them when I am a dog? It was
just the lovely.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, but I got to attach to Joe, and you know,
if you live on a farm, you can't get too attached,
and a different way to the way most dogs do.
The other thing I wanted to recommend is, you know,
I've never found a place I can't buy a thing.
I want to recommend gold hoops from the chemist. Look
at the ones I'm wearing today. I don't even know

(42:00):
what the brand is, but you'll know every chemist has them.
They're like good for sensitive someone.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Yes, yes, you were just all told that from childhood.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
I know I know that if I were often if
I wear eares, I've got so many piercings up my
ears really irritated. They'll get really So these are great standbys,
and they're just basically they're like twenty two. They come
in silver too different. They come in silver, they come
in different sizes, they come in little diamonds. But I
really like the hoops. They're very basic. I've stocked up
before I went because I don't want to take any

(42:33):
fancy jewlry away with me. Hoops from the chemist, Jesse,
what are you recommending?

Speaker 2 (42:37):
I am recommending the Charlie Sheen documentary that is on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Can you sell this to me? Because I'm not interested.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I'm so surprised you liked this because I watched it too, Amelia.
I was with you, and it was actually our producer
m who was like, I just have a feeling this
is going to be really good documentary. And I tried
to convince Luca, who just went, you could not make
me sit down and watch two hours about child.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Did you have your pirate.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
I did. I'm already with him, and I went, look,
let's give it ten minutes. Lemon Lore. It's called aka
Charlie Sheen, and it's really well made. And in the
first ten minutes we learned about ten things about Charlie Sheen.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
I didn't know his father was Martin Sheen, like I
knew in the West.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yes, I didn't know that about did he know.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
His brother was Emilio Estevez from the Breakfast Club?

Speaker 3 (43:29):
See, I didn't know this was all jen x Law exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
I didn't know any of that. They have John Cryer,
who's the other one from Two and a half Men,
which I've never sat down and watched an episode of
that show, but at the height of Charlie Sheen's addiction,
he was the highest paid remains the highest paid television
star of all time two million dollars an episode. Wow,
that's what they were paying him. John Cryer was being
paid maybe a third of that.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
I don't even know what John Cryer looks like. And
he's one of the best paid actors of all time.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Can you picture Two and a half Men? Yeah, so
Charlie Sheen. Then there's the kind of straight guy who's
like a little bit more serious, the geeky looking the
geeky looking guy, but him talking. He's quite candid and
open about his experience of working with Sheen during that
and the tension with someone being paid so much more,
who was clearly, you know, falling off the track.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Is he likable Sheen? No?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
I wouldn't say likable, but fascinating, fascinating.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
My favorite. You know, they have all the people that
they're interviewing. They've got Denise Richards who is now on
Real Housewives or was, And my favorite one is Sean Penn,
who was a contemporary of Charlie Sheen, so it was
like they all grew up together. It was Sheen, Sean Penn,
Tom Cruise, it was that whole crew, right, And Sean
Penn just has the most incredible face. He's pretty stoning

(44:46):
through this whole interview and he's just got this craggy face.
He's got a cigarette in his hand in every quote
that they've taken, and it's like they probably did a
two hour in and he's never without a cigarette in
his hand, and the way he speaks sort of slowly,
and he's just so wry, and everyone is like they've
clearly got a lot of affection for Charlie and it's

(45:07):
ultimately about addiction, and they're all like he is his
worst enemy, like he gets in his own way, and
he was very humble about that too, So no one
was like doing any spin.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Yeah, but I think it's a story two of the
women and children that get left in the wake of
a man with this level of addiction, And basically it's
like what happened if you had drug, alcohol, all of
that addictions, but you were built in a way that
meant you never fell down, Like physically, he could just
keep going. Sean pen Is like, this is not what

(45:39):
drugs do to other people. And so all I knew
was the twenty eleven winning moment where he just kept
saying winning, and he kept being on.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Tiger Blood Yes, and he kept being interview. He had
a very public meltdown. I don't know if it was
it was just pre social media, but I remember it
was the first kind of online in real time. Clearly
he was having mental issues. He was horribly wasted on drugs,
and it was really car crashy to.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Watch and everyone and it was kind of the He
was the most followed person on Twitter. Everyone was throwing
a microphone in his face.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
And money at him.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
And he went on a world tour and people showed up.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
What did he do on the tour?

Speaker 2 (46:16):
He needed the money because he would do a show
where he'd talk about himself, but he was on so
many drugs that he was barely coherent and all these
people wanted stories of him and Nick Cage when they
were young and all the people he dated, and he
couldn't tell a story. He could barely stand up. So
there's a point at which he says like I needed

(46:36):
someone there to tell me to get off the stage,
which is something I'm usually sympathetic to, but at that
point in the story, I was like, you have such
a supportive family and so many supportive friends.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
His father was amazing.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
It was amazing that I was like, at some point,
this is on you, like you have been so supported
and like the rehab and everything, but just a fascinating
story about addiction, about testing positive for HIV, which I
don't think any celebrities talked about before. Really well made
two Part eight. You don't have to be interested in him,
but just as a kind of snapshot of kind of.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, if you're a gen X, so you'll particularly like it.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, how about your Amelia.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Well, I've got a book that I was about to
lemon Law, and I've been keeping you updated on this
because yeah, you lemon Law did and I was like,
I'm going to lemon Law it too. But something made
me keep going, and I'm so glad I did. It's
called Atmosphere.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
I was at the Taylor Jenkins read this is.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
The new Taylor Jenkins because I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
I I was so excited that she had no new
book out, and then when I heard it was about space,
I'm like, all I, I'm.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Here to tell you that I felt exactly the same way.
But something about the title drew me in.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I think it's a really good title.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
I don't like space either, but I liked the title
and I like some of her books, not all of
her books by any means, but I decided to give
it a go.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
And I'm the one you like the most. Evelyn Hugo, Yeah,
the Seven Lives of Evelyn Here.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
I like the one about the rock star.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Oh yeah, the one that's an interview. It's like playboo
Matt dating six.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Yes, thank you. This is about a nineteen eighty fourth
Space Shuttle mission from NASA, but it's interspersed with a
love story that's between two astronauts. There's a bookish astrophysicist
called Joan Goodwin and an aeronautical engineer called Vanessa Ford.
So yes, it is a love of her between two women,
and as far as I know, I think that's the
first time that Teller Jenkins read.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Has she experimented with it in one.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Of her books. We won't say which one. Yeah, okay, okay,
I was going to say that seems to be a
bit of a theme.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Yeah, yeah, well it's I just loved that it intersperses
these two plots. There's the space shuttle mission, which is
very suspenseful, and then there's the love story. She's such
a good like a masterful writer, because every time you
get a little bit bored with one of those two plots,
chapter ends, next chapter you're back and the other plot

(48:55):
that you're more into. And I admire that kind of
ability to keep me turning the pages.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
I think there's something wrong with me, Amelia. I need
to pick it back up, because I have only heard
great things about this book, and I feel a lot
of shame that I didn't.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
How far did you get? And why did you I got.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
Literally half a I just try and finish the chapter
you're in because it will take you to the plot
that you like more. And then at the end they
come together beautifully. And she really does stick the landing.
And there's nothing I like better than a book that
sticks to the land.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Okay, everyone says that, so I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
I need there are a lot of space in it,
no belly any Oh, Okay, see I'd read orbit All
by Samantha Harvey, which was the world in the book
that seems hard to.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Read, and that was the best.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
You loved that.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
I loved it. It was twenty four hours in space,
and I feel like I shouldn't have read that before this.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
No, I think it's not fair to compare them. My
understanding of that book is that it's doing very different things.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
It is it is, and so this I just think
didn't quite compare. And then I got turned off. But
I should pick it back up.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Good idea.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
A big thank you to all of you the out
louders for listening to today's show, and of course our
fabulous team for putting this show together every week. Friends,
don't forget you can also watch us on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Can I just shout out? Because we started the show
talking about your shirt in somewhat drog it terms, but
I want to mention that today I love the nineties
vibe of what you're wearing. It's very Jennifer Aniston, and
only our YouTube audience will get to see it. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Do you think because I've had a few comments lu
cragans it sounds like Luke who criticizes me a lot,
which maybe he does.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
You're wearing a white T shirt with a black shift
dress over there. It's a a bit school girl, yeah,
but in a sexy way.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Okay, Okay, I took it as a compliment. All right,
love it? Yeah, maya Amelia, please read the credits.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
Our team needs a lot of big claps. Group executive
producer Roost Divine executive producers are Emmeline Gazillis and Sashatanic,
and our senior audio producer is Lee Porges. And now
I'm reading your bit to Amelia, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Our video producer big claps for Josh Green and our
junior content producers are Cocoa and Tessa, who gave me
a mint thank.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
You before we go out loud as. If you're not
ready to say that was to be me, well, I know,
I thought, because you spoke at the end, then I'll
just pick it up keep going. I've forgotten how to
do this shit the screen.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Listen to our Tarot Card episode.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I haven't been listening to the.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Show, Okay, last Fridays and I'm going to do a
little tease right now. Okay, there is something that that
Tarot card reader says in last Friday's episode. If you
haven't listened, you just simply must. There is something that
she said that is about to happen. And I didn't
realize that it was about to happen until I saw a
comment in the out Louders and I was like, Oh,

(51:34):
I didn't realize. So she's just so spot on about
so many different things. We've had so much feedback. Also,
go to the out Louders group and they're all sharing
their Tarot card reader story.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Really give you goosebumps. I saw her, I thought she
was fantastic.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
She is, and we asked her about you and so
if you want some just a free Tarot card reading
just too. Last Friday's app we also left the MIC's
rolling and did some personal one on ones with Evelyn.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Are we going to hear that?

Speaker 2 (52:00):
They are subscriber episodes this week? So that was Tuesday's
subscriber episode. It's very personal, it's very private. It is
only for our subscribers. We will pop a link in
the sho show notes to both of those episodes.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Bye Bye, Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening.
If you love the show and want to support us
as well, subscribing to MoMA Maya is the very best
way to do so. There is a link in the
episode description

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