March 17, 2025 • 44 mins
Two politicians walk into a podcast studio… and no, this isn’t the start of a bad joke. In today’s episode of Out Loud, we spill the tea on what really went down when Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Opposition Leader Peter Dutton dropped by Mamamia for a chat.
And we don’t want to alarm anyone on a Monday, but you might just be suffering from hurry sickness. Yes, it’s a thing, and we dive into how it’s affecting lives and sanity.
Plus, a high-profile father has taken centre stage with an emotional open letter to parents of autistic kids by saying the quiet thing out loud. We unpack the conversations it sparked – and why it matters.
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What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Mel Robbins Knows Exactly What's Wrong with You
- Listen: The White Lotus — 5 Theories & A Dong Watch
- Listen: The New Things People Are Saying During Sex
- Listen: The Royals' Group Chat & Mia's BTS Secrets From Award Season
- Listen: The (No Spoiler) Severance Conversation We’ve Been Waiting To Have
- Listen: A Meghan Pivot No One Expected & The Ugly SNARF Phone Trap
- Listen: The Fight You Need To Have With Your Parents
- Listen: The (No Spoiler) Severance Conversation We’ve Been Waiting To Have
- Listen to No Filter: Anthony Albanese, Prime Minister: The Interview
- Listen to No Filter: Peter Dutton, Opposition Leader: The Interview
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
The End Bits:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very
badly because you're like.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in
much more of a hurry than people who are on time.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And on the show today, two politicians walk into a
podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the
scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came
into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to
alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have
hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why.
A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse
(01:12):
kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby
months ago and she's only.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Just telling us about it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
In September last year, the singer announced on stage that
she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it.
There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article
where she announced it.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's funny. I went back in her socials and she
doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing
concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable.
When was the baby born? Do we know?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
So?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she
welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think
she's now louder?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Obviously?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't
announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to
disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd
had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect
herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she
was thinking, you know, am I going to be a
good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself
to be patient and give as much love and kindness
(02:17):
to myself as my body was changing holl love that.
Do you think that this is indicative of sort of
how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship
with social media evolving?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy,
it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about
what her public life is and her private life is.
But one of the things that's amazing about this, I
think is that you're seeing it a little bit in
real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving
it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce
(02:51):
them on socials, or they don't announce them at all,
and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby.
Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly
pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all
got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's
a very confident, boundaried flex almost.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it.
When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and
I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah,
it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling
all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you
haven't been doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the
new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the
leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy
for eight years.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well when you were the editor?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Did you get around that?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Because there was no internet and I was the editor
of magazine and I just didn't mention it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
How about it worked, did anyone?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my
actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell
my parents and also the father of the child, but
I didn't have to And so it came as a
big shock to a lot of people to realize that
I was actually a parent.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Because that basically says that you know at that time,
who you were like in your private life didn't affect
your job, as in, you don't need to know all
the details of my life to know that I'm a
good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are,
that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us,
I mean I think people are.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I think it was also though I was I mean, god,
it was an easier time to have kids because you
didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how
you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a
high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world,
whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I
think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young,
I was twenty four, I was out of step with
(04:40):
all of my peers, and I think that I needed
some time to process what it meant for my identity,
which I think was interesting a little bit about what
jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming
out in the next week or two, so I think
that she realized that she needed to tell a brand
story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah,
probably got to tell you that I've got a baby,
but I'm going to do it totally on my terms.
And I'm not just going to give you the interview
because I feel.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just
like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Please have empathy.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't
want to.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian
if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome
to No Filter.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
It's great to be here.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak
to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your
pitch to them?
Speaker 6 (05:45):
We recognize there is more to do and my government
will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one
of the key differences between my government and our opponents
is whether we take gender equity seriously.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite
you to come back.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Deal.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which
is to improve the world for women and girls, yes,
I would like to discuss with you what you have
done to that end.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation
that continues on for the year about what we can
do to make lives for women and young girls better.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton,
Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by
Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend.
It may have sounded like they were all together. They
actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the
second can't be shown.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other
because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But have to press one button then another one, you
can't press them.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first,
the Dutton but Dune button.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in
a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but
because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that
we know is that we'll be going to the polls
sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard,
we continue with the election campaign that you have. When
you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking
hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios,
(07:30):
including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this
very studio is the room where it happened. The US
election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the
biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only
cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the
Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went
on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing
(07:53):
might be playing out here, because I mean it's a
no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million
women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about
eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart
to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's
the first most liberal leader who has since now come
(08:14):
Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum
and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who
was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would
only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number
of times we asked how did that turn out for you?
Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of
(08:34):
the interviews?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I
know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an
enormous fan of her work and as I was listening,
I thought how fresh it was to listen to her
conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes.
I don't know what her preference is. I know what
(08:58):
her opinions are about certain things, but.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Do you think that's important?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about
the US example, and I think that that's probably the
way in where which the US election is going to
influence Australia the most is that this will be the
podcast election. And what happened there is that it was
almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a
(09:21):
particular party would take on a Trump or take on
a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Go.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
They didn't hold them to any sort of account.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
They didn't really part of the campaign.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They were part of the campaign. And to me there
were points at which I went, is this just propaganda
if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling
over this, that there is the art of the political
interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's
a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a
politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And
(09:55):
I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would
feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel
like I have the training to be able to sit
there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility
with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a
key part of that.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I was going to say that you say it's fresh
that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but
actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be.
It was very important that.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The journal is not on podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that
was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be
a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express
any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of
thrown that out of the window a little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've
seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative
if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like
such an American way of talking about it, because we
also don't vote for the prime minister.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
We vote for someone now are electric.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
But if you think that every liberal voter is a
racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong.
And if you think that every labor voter is a
woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's
so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a
time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like,
(11:10):
I listened to people and they feel like my friends,
and I don't just want people telling me who to
vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it
felt really important to me.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I think some people do, though, what someone to to
vote for.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough
to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own
behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less,
that was my first. So I got to choose which
one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going
to listen to that one because I know Less, because
I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my
(11:45):
own leanings, and I found that enlightening.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when
you do what Mom and Mia just did and say
we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these
two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of
those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually,
what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's
audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the
(12:11):
things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't
been as much as you might imagine for Mom and
Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there
is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I
don't want to hear from that person. How very dare
you when it comes to this level of politics.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Talk about the word platforming because these are political they
are voted by the Australian people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing
to say when you're talking about like the people who
are going to be who are or are going to
be prime ministers you need to put But what I
wanted to say is so there are people who are
uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it.
You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very
binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people
agree with me good. What if I listen to an
(12:54):
interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and
they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe
they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me
feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever.
I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that
makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to
this place where we think and actually, I don't think
it's new. I think that I grew up in a
(13:14):
very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are
very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they
think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh
at any joke they told, even if it was the
funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important
to push ourselves to go if my values and my
(13:35):
beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not
going to be swung by a guy not being a
devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I
don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact,
it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about
the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to
and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists
for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's
in their job description that they have to be completely partial.
They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased
(14:14):
that way.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
A lot is.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters,
which is different to journalists. You have to look at
what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi
and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to
help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said,
how very dare you.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So right wing, they said, and that you should just
speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find,
and what we have found is that when people have
a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in
their ears, and you don't agree with them about something
that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel
betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's
(14:58):
what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting.
Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant,
the Greens leader, and they were like very much together,
and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of
course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And that's one way of doing it, and as you say,
a way that I actually respect. But I think that
in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know,
demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both
of them. And you know, we have this way of
talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty
(15:35):
of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate
uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way
things are, and you know what, on climate change every
now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But
uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know,
and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Might just have different priorities to Jesse.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a
different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has
a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics.
You know what, you can think what you like about politicians,
but I don't like that we would make assumptions about
the people who vote for them. Because if it was
as simple as rich people vote like this and poor
people vote like this, white people vote like this, and
people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's
(16:17):
not that simple, really.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A
lot of people say, we all like to think we're
deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone
your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you.
You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice.
We are very much a victim of our demographics. But
the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I
want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of
(16:39):
them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this
is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this
a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And
I don't mean that in a way to any way.
Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not
what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But
there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it
was like there was policy talk, but then there was
the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton
(17:00):
was very interesting, probably because we know least about him
in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before.
His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating
about his background and his parents, But that story is
now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton,
I feel, for a lot of people is a bit
of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings
(17:22):
about him based on what you do know. But I
found that really interesting and what they were both very
good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And
what was just talking about was about how your life
experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on.
Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a
police officer and about being exposed to the sides of
(17:44):
our society. I guess that a lot of people get
to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence,
about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question
colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now
you can think what you want about that, you can
think what you want about whether or not that's a
good or a healthy way to see the world. But
(18:04):
there's no question and Albo and again this is such
a well known story now, but his story of coming
up where he came up in social housing with the
single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview
and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that,
because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I think they both went in with different jobs to do.
I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people
don't know who he is, and so I think he
was a little bit more tentative, and his job was
to make people think that he's more human than perhaps
they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot
(18:44):
of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's
delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular
opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's
more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional
caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he
had to do was to be I am a serious
person and I can be strong, and so he was
(19:05):
very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which
is also easy to do when you are the Prime
minister and you've got.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Good ability in a record.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over
the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never
had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think
they both succeeded at what they had to do in
very different ways.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften
his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap,
he had to show himself as strong and maybe there
was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had
to show. And I think that that's probably a bit
of a blueprint for what we might see going forward
in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian
(19:44):
podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to
more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world.
I think we're going to be hearing a lot from
these two men between now and April. In a moment,
are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new
word for that, and apparently it is not good for
your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh
van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children?
(20:10):
Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason
really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient,
irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any
sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness.
In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna
Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency.
(20:33):
Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high
achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according
to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running
to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol
on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when
you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans,
(20:55):
your body continues to release those chemicals and it is
not good for you. Being in a state of constant
urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to
high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field
of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that
being in a high state of cortisol can lead to
multiple health concerns over the course of a life.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed,
I also feel worried and anxious.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because
you're late.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I
mean much more of a hurry than people who are
on time because I'm constantly late.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how
are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you
relate to hurry.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent.
I never leave enough time to get places in some
areas of my life more than others. But I always
feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was
really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and
little lights started going off for me because one of
the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start
(22:01):
like in my mind I've portioned out the day in
like hours, like I've got this much time to do this,
and if I do that, and then I do this,
and then I have to talk to myself about no,
you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It
will be all right if you don't. I remember in
our old office, Well it will on the weekend when
I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things
I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter
(22:23):
at this place and maybe clean the house so we
don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant
that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards,
and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even
you powerble. You have seen Holly.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
She doesn't ramble.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I've never seen her walk slowly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
She's on stage half.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know
exactly why this is the case. I know what causes
harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is
finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you
would read a newspaper, you would get to the end
of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know
the news for today. You would listen to a radio
(23:10):
news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come
to the end of that. You would do a day
of work, and then you would go home. Things would end.
But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic
the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty
four seven without doing anything else. You never get to
the end of the news, you never get to the
(23:31):
end of anything. You never get to the end of
work because you can take it home with you.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness
is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I
think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah,
it is so status validating. There is status, and I've
found this going from work to then a very different
pace of the day when I was on maternity leave,
(23:56):
and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of
your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff,
but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain
time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I
think that that is why as well. The shifting of
the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find
myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath
(24:19):
gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's
on this road when I'm on my way home, like
every day, and then I go, you're on your way
home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The reason why is because you're wanting to get home
to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're
racing because you feel like you're late for work. So
I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares.
You are always stealing time from someone or something, and
you always have that sense of if I don't get
(24:49):
home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I
don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my
work or whatever you're obligation.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns
because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years
that I had little kids and a busy job were
the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody
when they've got kids who need them that much, and
the schedule that are required that got to be here
at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the
rib and meeting and then this is a very high
(25:17):
level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But
like the world moves on in times change and maybe
you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs
a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever
it is, and you don't have to be in charge
of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly
for women, but not only to kick yourself out of
hurry sickness.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Did you say that, replace it with other things?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's
not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose.
I do that, and I see people do that in retirement,
and I see I have felt it on my own
and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not
at work because I'm just like, this is making me
feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Do you want to know?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Just to overcome it all right?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Mindfulness, holliod.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
What you have to do is called and I liked
this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you
do is you focus on the here and now. I
do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're
in the car, just be in the moment, because when
you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're
always in the next thing and the next thing, the
next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad
for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second
(26:24):
thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry?
And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when
you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you
never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do
you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was
going to say I made a note. Kate said, I
was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter,
and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people
are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in
(26:52):
the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So
this is about I actually heard them talking about this
on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have
to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day,
this is a message to myself twenty eight things on
your to do list which you're not going to achieve.
You're not only going to feel like a failure by
the end of the day, but every minute will be
(27:16):
defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find
that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when
it's not. Some of them are quite little things that
could go on a different list.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So
urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important
things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
And you're better off to go what are the three
urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I
need to do? And then put them on the list
and then kind of work out maybe every day you
do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than
treating everything with the same level of urgency.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the
city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed
this if you ever when you leave the city and
you go to a small town and you order a
coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And then you get.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make
jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in
such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization.
The people who don't live in cities have got all
the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true.
But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of
constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around
(28:25):
a whole lot of other people who've got it too,
so that when you are in the car you're always
like got to get my car, one car in front,
got to get my car. Or you're in the queue
at the shop and there are four people ahead of you,
and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a
smaller population and less of that around you all the time,
it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you
with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that
(28:48):
car goes in front of me, like there's going to
be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for
the fact that our jobs just got harder these past
few days. The King of England has got a podcast,
Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of
Sussex has got a new podcast.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've
got to get me as take on this in a
second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake,
everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need
this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a
special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all
of them.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's
called Imo in my opinion, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen
for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah,
but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting,
and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I
say that's what I does, so back off. Which and
Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder
and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day
and before nine am I had half a dozen a
dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on
this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes,
you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also
I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders.
(30:15):
Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female
founders about how to start a business with the idea
that she's starting her business and she wants some tips
and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's
a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Late since she's already launched her business.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Well it's not going that well, it's on.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's
beautifully said Jesse.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened,
because the success of the King of England's podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Will only lift our boat.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later
had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and
everyone else's many opinions about it.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum
and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as
subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get
your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank
you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic.
We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed
time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus
needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I
never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the
hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel
the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but
(31:44):
the pain of being a parent to an autistic child
is not the child, it's the world. The pain is
seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and
left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules
and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them
(32:06):
and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't
want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep
sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed
and out of control, and there was nothing you can
do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words,
of watching them struggle to express things that come so
easily to others. That's the way people look at you
(32:28):
in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing
themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead
of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to
slow down for them. And however hard it is for me,
I know they're doing it so much tougher.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So,
I've written a sensible thing I was going to say,
but even just listening to that grab again just makes
me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone
and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just
heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder
of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open
letter on his podcast. But that was a video that
(33:06):
was on social media to parents of kids with autism,
and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands
of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale.
There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral.
The majority of it has been positive from parents in
similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes,
(33:30):
it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child,
sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful.
It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how
to be their advocate and their protector as well as
their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally.
(33:50):
And then there's been some pushback from those who resent
any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a
conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel
like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an
autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to
negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The
(34:14):
fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter,
Hugh made sure to let people know that he had
consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids.
He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis,
and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in
preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also
(34:35):
thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal
but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child
and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to
make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion.
And as I said, I don't want to be another
person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked
in those shoes and still does, I want to say
(34:56):
that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to
just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because
he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk
about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive
voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative
about disability or trying to claim that in some kind
of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents
(35:17):
who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses
or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very
specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child.
And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people
to tell you just how right he got it, because
it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those
(35:39):
things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't
also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a
joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up
and gets on with it more than a parent with
a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed
to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in
my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain
(36:01):
and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse,
do you think that one of the reasons that video
got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as
well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in
that is also a father rather than a mother, and
that almost contributes to the impact.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop
more shit on the Internet than men do as a
general point, but I actually don't think so. I think
that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about
this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he
was a father or a mother. I think there's something
to be said for the time of year that he
(36:42):
wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has
meant a time of great change for kids with autism.
Often can be really, really hard, and I think that
there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so
that's why it struck a particular chord.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I also think.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
People might have just heard the first five or ten seconds,
or seeing criticism and thought that Hugh was talking about
the grief of having a child with autism full stop.
That's actually not what he was saying. What he was
saying is a truth that I remember my grandmother talking about,
you know, when she was raising a child with an
intellectual disability, which is different, but it's the pain of
(37:20):
watching how the world treats that child. And my grand
told this story of she raised her daughter and then
her grandson with an intellectual disability, and sitting on a train.
Simon was quite young at the time, and these schoolboys
mocked him, and they did this thing with their mouth
where they were mocking how he spoke, and she could
see that Simon knew what was happening. That was the pain.
(37:42):
The pain was going. I am feeling my child's pain.
And as a parent, I think what people want more
than anything is to see the world fall in love
with your child and for the world to see them.
It is one of the greatest.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Joys to see them the same way you see.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
To see them the same way you see them. And
my brother, who is a early childhood educator and he
works with kids with specific needs, says that the look
in a parent's face when you see their child, their
child who has autism and maybe there for and their
nonverbal and their behavior is punished in certain circumstances, When
(38:19):
their parents see you connect with them and love them,
that is one of their greatest joys. And that doesn't
happen enough. And for you to say, if all you
get out of this is that when you're in the
shopping center on the weekend and you see a child
having a tantrum, or you see a child reacting in
a way that you have an opinion about, you have
(38:39):
absolutely no idea, and to treat that child and that
parent with compassion.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Like to me, that was the takeaway, and that is
what I took away. You know, I think that the
way we learn about other people and the way that
we become empathetic is by hearing other people's stories and
by other people voicing their experiences. And to me, any
(39:04):
attempt or criticism of so someone's right to do that
or the way that they spoke their truth, and I
know we've spoken about how their truth can be a
bit of a cliche, but like their experience, this idea
that there's only one way that you are allowed, you know,
it's like it's a real policing or a real controlling
(39:27):
of the narrative around I've noticed, particularly around disability, where
any diversion from that path of that it is a gift,
It is a superpower. We only stay positive, we only
talk about the good stuff. You get a lot of
blowback if you dare whether you're a person who is
experiencing that neurodiversity or one of their cares. There is
(39:50):
a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure to
stay silent and not speak about your experience, and I
just don't see why speaking about your experience takes anything
away from the experience of others. I think that we
need to hear from all aspects of the experience around
everything in life. You know, we were just talking about
(40:10):
the importance of hearing from people on a different political
side to you and getting empathy into them. This idea
that there can only be one voice is maddening to me,
and I feel like I've seen this happen to parents
before when they've spoken about their experience of parenting a
child with a disability, and they have been shamed and
(40:30):
silenced and accused of harming other children with disabilities. I
was attacked when I spoke about having ADHD and how
I didn't think it was a superpower and I wish
I could have given it back, And there were a
lot of people were positive, but there was a very
vocal aspect of the neurodiverse community who was very angry
with me and said that I shouldn't say it and
(40:52):
trying to police my speech. And I just think I
think it was a gift what you shared, and it
will change the way I look at kids and parents.
Because I don't have an autistic child, and there's not
one in my immediate day to day life, I wouldn't
necessarily recognize those signs.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah. I also think though, that it's interesting you say
that because this is just this experience is so widespread.
This is in of my friends that have kids. This
is a you know, a really significant portion of parents
that I know, And if you sit down at a
table with parents, this conversation will come up. And to
treat it with this, I saw a comment about radical
(41:32):
acceptance and positivity and how learning that their child had
this was their greatest gift. And I respect and I'm
really happy for that family. But I think that when
you layer on how you're meant to feel.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
And become toxic positive.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, but I understand the complexity of it because I
talked to me are often about ADHD and one of
the things you often say to me and this, and
experts have said this to me, and every professional I've
ever seen they'll say, you know, one of the biggest
issues for a lot of kids who grow up with
the Neuer diversity is shame, right, to be seen that
(42:07):
their neurodiversity is a problem for other people. It makes
other people's lives hard, right, And the reason this is
very complex is it does make other people's lives hard.
Like you said before, Jesse, that all parents want is
for everybody to see how beautiful their kids are. That's true,
and your kid is your number one priority. But also
(42:28):
parents are people. Were just humans, like ordinary humans, with
finite resources, finite amount of energy, finite amounts of patience, patience,
and also finite amounts of knowledge about this stuff. The
average parent who has given a diagnosis for their kid
is not walking around, living and breathing what autism means,
what ADHD means, so they have to learn it is
(42:51):
difficult for them. It's okay for a parent. I think
it needs to be okay for a parent to say
this is exhausting. I am so stressed, and I am
so lonely, and I am so whatever, without being told
that they are being negative. However, the problem is I
don't want your kids and other kids with these issues
(43:13):
to feel like they are making their parents, teachers, care
as friends, lives hard. So it is a really complicated thing,
and I really respect and understand that, and I think
that you've already said this mere but the answer is
lots of different voices and nobody claiming you know, it's
true that someone like you and someone I mean like me,
I guess we have microphones in front of us and
(43:33):
have platforms and audiences and so it's like, well, that
experience will get lifted. But I think that this is
a very specific experience that, as you said, Jesse, affects
a lot of people. But we're just humans, and I
think sometimes you're allowed to say this is really fucking difficult.
Thank you out louders for being here with us today
(43:55):
as always, and to our fabulous team for putting this
show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mum and Me I is the very best
way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very
badly because you're like.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in
much more of a hurry than people who are on time.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And on the show today, two politicians walk into a
podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the
scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came
into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to
alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have
hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why.
A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse
(01:12):
kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby
months ago and she's only.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Just telling us about it.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
In September last year, the singer announced on stage that
she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it.
There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article
where she announced it.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It's funny. I went back in her socials and she
doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing
concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable.
When was the baby born? Do we know?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
So?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she
welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think
she's now louder?
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Obviously?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't
announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to
disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd
had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect
herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she
was thinking, you know, am I going to be a
good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself
to be patient and give as much love and kindness
(02:17):
to myself as my body was changing holl love that.
Do you think that this is indicative of sort of
how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship
with social media evolving?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy,
it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about
what her public life is and her private life is.
But one of the things that's amazing about this, I
think is that you're seeing it a little bit in
real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving
it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce
(02:51):
them on socials, or they don't announce them at all,
and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby.
Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly
pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all
got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's
a very confident, boundaried flex almost.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it.
When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and
I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah,
it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling
all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you
haven't been doing that.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the
new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the
leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy
for eight years.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well when you were the editor?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Did you get around that?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Because there was no internet and I was the editor
of magazine and I just didn't mention it.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
How about it worked, did anyone?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my
actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell
my parents and also the father of the child, but
I didn't have to And so it came as a
big shock to a lot of people to realize that
I was actually a parent.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Because that basically says that you know at that time,
who you were like in your private life didn't affect
your job, as in, you don't need to know all
the details of my life to know that I'm a
good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are,
that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us,
I mean I think people are.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I think it was also though I was I mean, god,
it was an easier time to have kids because you
didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how
you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a
high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world,
whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I
think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young,
I was twenty four, I was out of step with
(04:40):
all of my peers, and I think that I needed
some time to process what it meant for my identity,
which I think was interesting a little bit about what
jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming
out in the next week or two, so I think
that she realized that she needed to tell a brand
story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah,
probably got to tell you that I've got a baby,
but I'm going to do it totally on my terms.
And I'm not just going to give you the interview
because I feel.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just
like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Please have empathy.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't
want to.
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian
if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome
to No Filter.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
It's great to be here.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak
to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your
pitch to them?
Speaker 6 (05:45):
We recognize there is more to do and my government
will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one
of the key differences between my government and our opponents
is whether we take gender equity seriously.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite
you to come back.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Deal.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which
is to improve the world for women and girls, yes,
I would like to discuss with you what you have
done to that end.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation
that continues on for the year about what we can
do to make lives for women and young girls better.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton,
Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by
Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend.
It may have sounded like they were all together. They
actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the
second can't be shown.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other
because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But have to press one button then another one, you
can't press them.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first,
the Dutton but Dune button.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in
a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but
because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that
we know is that we'll be going to the polls
sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard,
we continue with the election campaign that you have. When
you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking
hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios,
(07:30):
including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this
very studio is the room where it happened. The US
election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the
biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only
cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the
Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went
on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing
(07:53):
might be playing out here, because I mean it's a
no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million
women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about
eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart
to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's
the first most liberal leader who has since now come
(08:14):
Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum
and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who
was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would
only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number
of times we asked how did that turn out for you?
Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of
(08:34):
the interviews?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I
know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an
enormous fan of her work and as I was listening,
I thought how fresh it was to listen to her
conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes.
I don't know what her preference is. I know what
(08:58):
her opinions are about certain things, but.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Do you think that's important?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about
the US example, and I think that that's probably the
way in where which the US election is going to
influence Australia the most is that this will be the
podcast election. And what happened there is that it was
almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a
(09:21):
particular party would take on a Trump or take on
a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Go.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
They didn't hold them to any sort of account.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
They didn't really part of the campaign.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They were part of the campaign. And to me there
were points at which I went, is this just propaganda
if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling
over this, that there is the art of the political
interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's
a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a
politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And
(09:55):
I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would
feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel
like I have the training to be able to sit
there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility
with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a
key part of that.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I was going to say that you say it's fresh
that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but
actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be.
It was very important that.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The journal is not on podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that
was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be
a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express
any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of
thrown that out of the window a little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've
seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative
if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like
such an American way of talking about it, because we
also don't vote for the prime minister.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
We vote for someone now are electric.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
But if you think that every liberal voter is a
racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong.
And if you think that every labor voter is a
woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's
so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a
time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like,
(11:10):
I listened to people and they feel like my friends,
and I don't just want people telling me who to
vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it
felt really important to me.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I think some people do, though, what someone to to
vote for.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough
to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own
behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less,
that was my first. So I got to choose which
one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going
to listen to that one because I know Less, because
I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my
(11:45):
own leanings, and I found that enlightening.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when
you do what Mom and Mia just did and say
we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these
two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of
those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually,
what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's
audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the
(12:11):
things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't
been as much as you might imagine for Mom and
Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there
is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I
don't want to hear from that person. How very dare
you when it comes to this level of politics.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Talk about the word platforming because these are political they
are voted by the Australian people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing
to say when you're talking about like the people who
are going to be who are or are going to
be prime ministers you need to put But what I
wanted to say is so there are people who are
uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it.
You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very
binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people
agree with me good. What if I listen to an
(12:54):
interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and
they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe
they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me
feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever.
I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that
makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to
this place where we think and actually, I don't think
it's new. I think that I grew up in a
(13:14):
very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are
very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they
think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh
at any joke they told, even if it was the
funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important
to push ourselves to go if my values and my
(13:35):
beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not
going to be swung by a guy not being a
devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I
don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact,
it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about
the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to
and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists
for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's
in their job description that they have to be completely partial.
They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased
(14:14):
that way.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
A lot is.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters,
which is different to journalists. You have to look at
what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi
and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to
help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said,
how very dare you.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So right wing, they said, and that you should just
speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find,
and what we have found is that when people have
a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in
their ears, and you don't agree with them about something
that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel
betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's
(14:58):
what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting.
Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant,
the Greens leader, and they were like very much together,
and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of
course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And that's one way of doing it, and as you say,
a way that I actually respect. But I think that
in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know,
demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both
of them. And you know, we have this way of
talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty
(15:35):
of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate
uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way
things are, and you know what, on climate change every
now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But
uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know,
and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Might just have different priorities to Jesse.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a
different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has
a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics.
You know what, you can think what you like about politicians,
but I don't like that we would make assumptions about
the people who vote for them. Because if it was
as simple as rich people vote like this and poor
people vote like this, white people vote like this, and
people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's
(16:17):
not that simple, really.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A
lot of people say, we all like to think we're
deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone
your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you.
You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice.
We are very much a victim of our demographics. But
the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I
want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of
(16:39):
them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this
is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this
a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And
I don't mean that in a way to any way.
Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not
what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But
there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it
was like there was policy talk, but then there was
the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton
(17:00):
was very interesting, probably because we know least about him
in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before.
His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating
about his background and his parents, But that story is
now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton,
I feel, for a lot of people is a bit
of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings
(17:22):
about him based on what you do know. But I
found that really interesting and what they were both very
good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And
what was just talking about was about how your life
experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on.
Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a
police officer and about being exposed to the sides of
(17:44):
our society. I guess that a lot of people get
to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence,
about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question
colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now
you can think what you want about that, you can
think what you want about whether or not that's a
good or a healthy way to see the world. But
(18:04):
there's no question and Albo and again this is such
a well known story now, but his story of coming
up where he came up in social housing with the
single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview
and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that,
because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I think they both went in with different jobs to do.
I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people
don't know who he is, and so I think he
was a little bit more tentative, and his job was
to make people think that he's more human than perhaps
they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot
(18:44):
of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's
delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular
opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's
more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional
caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he
had to do was to be I am a serious
person and I can be strong, and so he was
(19:05):
very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which
is also easy to do when you are the Prime
minister and you've got.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Good ability in a record.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over
the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never
had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think
they both succeeded at what they had to do in
very different ways.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften
his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap,
he had to show himself as strong and maybe there
was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had
to show. And I think that that's probably a bit
of a blueprint for what we might see going forward
in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian
(19:44):
podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to
more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world.
I think we're going to be hearing a lot from
these two men between now and April. In a moment,
are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new
word for that, and apparently it is not good for
your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh
van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children?
(20:10):
Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason
really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient,
irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any
sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness.
In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna
Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency.
(20:33):
Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high
achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according
to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running
to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol
on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when
you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans,
(20:55):
your body continues to release those chemicals and it is
not good for you. Being in a state of constant
urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to
high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field
of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that
being in a high state of cortisol can lead to
multiple health concerns over the course of a life.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed,
I also feel worried and anxious.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because
you're late.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I
mean much more of a hurry than people who are
on time because I'm constantly late.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how
are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you
relate to hurry.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent.
I never leave enough time to get places in some
areas of my life more than others. But I always
feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was
really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and
little lights started going off for me because one of
the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start
(22:01):
like in my mind I've portioned out the day in
like hours, like I've got this much time to do this,
and if I do that, and then I do this,
and then I have to talk to myself about no,
you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It
will be all right if you don't. I remember in
our old office, Well it will on the weekend when
I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things
I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter
(22:23):
at this place and maybe clean the house so we
don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant
that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards,
and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even
you powerble. You have seen Holly.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
She doesn't ramble.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I've never seen her walk slowly.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
She's on stage half.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know
exactly why this is the case. I know what causes
harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is
finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you
would read a newspaper, you would get to the end
of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know
the news for today. You would listen to a radio
(23:10):
news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come
to the end of that. You would do a day
of work, and then you would go home. Things would end.
But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic
the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty
four seven without doing anything else. You never get to
the end of the news, you never get to the
(23:31):
end of anything. You never get to the end of
work because you can take it home with you.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness
is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I
think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah,
it is so status validating. There is status, and I've
found this going from work to then a very different
pace of the day when I was on maternity leave,
(23:56):
and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of
your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff,
but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain
time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I
think that that is why as well. The shifting of
the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find
myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath
(24:19):
gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's
on this road when I'm on my way home, like
every day, and then I go, you're on your way
home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The reason why is because you're wanting to get home
to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're
racing because you feel like you're late for work. So
I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares.
You are always stealing time from someone or something, and
you always have that sense of if I don't get
(24:49):
home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I
don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my
work or whatever you're obligation.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns
because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years
that I had little kids and a busy job were
the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody
when they've got kids who need them that much, and
the schedule that are required that got to be here
at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the
rib and meeting and then this is a very high
(25:17):
level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But
like the world moves on in times change and maybe
you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs
a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever
it is, and you don't have to be in charge
of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly
for women, but not only to kick yourself out of
hurry sickness.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Did you say that, replace it with other things?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's
not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose.
I do that, and I see people do that in retirement,
and I see I have felt it on my own
and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not
at work because I'm just like, this is making me
feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Do you want to know?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Just to overcome it all right?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Mindfulness, holliod.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
What you have to do is called and I liked
this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you
do is you focus on the here and now. I
do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're
in the car, just be in the moment, because when
you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're
always in the next thing and the next thing, the
next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad
for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second
(26:24):
thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry?
And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when
you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you
never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do
you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was
going to say I made a note. Kate said, I
was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter,
and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people
are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in
(26:52):
the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So
this is about I actually heard them talking about this
on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have
to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day,
this is a message to myself twenty eight things on
your to do list which you're not going to achieve.
You're not only going to feel like a failure by
the end of the day, but every minute will be
(27:16):
defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find
that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when
it's not. Some of them are quite little things that
could go on a different list.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So
urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important
things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
And you're better off to go what are the three
urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I
need to do? And then put them on the list
and then kind of work out maybe every day you
do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than
treating everything with the same level of urgency.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the
city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed
this if you ever when you leave the city and
you go to a small town and you order a
coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And then you get.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make
jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in
such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization.
The people who don't live in cities have got all
the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true.
But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of
constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around
(28:25):
a whole lot of other people who've got it too,
so that when you are in the car you're always
like got to get my car, one car in front,
got to get my car. Or you're in the queue
at the shop and there are four people ahead of you,
and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a
smaller population and less of that around you all the time,
it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you
with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that
(28:48):
car goes in front of me, like there's going to
be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for
the fact that our jobs just got harder these past
few days. The King of England has got a podcast,
Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of
Sussex has got a new podcast.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've
got to get me as take on this in a
second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake,
everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need
this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a
special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all
of them.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's
called Imo in my opinion, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen
for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah,
but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting,
and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I
say that's what I does, so back off. Which and
Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder
and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day
and before nine am I had half a dozen a
dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on
this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes,
you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also
I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders.
(30:15):
Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female
founders about how to start a business with the idea
that she's starting her business and she wants some tips
and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's
a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Late since she's already launched her business.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Well it's not going that well, it's on.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's
beautifully said Jesse.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened,
because the success of the King of England's podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Will only lift our boat.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later
had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and
everyone else's many opinions about it.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum
and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as
subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get
your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank
you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic.
We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed
time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus
needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I
never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the
hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel
the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but
(31:44):
the pain of being a parent to an autistic child
is not the child, it's the world. The pain is
seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and
left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules
and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them
(32:06):
and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't
want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep
sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed
and out of control, and there was nothing you can
do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words,
of watching them struggle to express things that come so
easily to others. That's the way people look at you
(32:28):
in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing
themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead
of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to
slow down for them. And however hard it is for me,
I know they're doing it so much tougher.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So,
I've written a sensible thing I was going to say,
but even just listening to that grab again just makes
me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone
and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just
heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder
of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open
letter on his podcast. But that was a video that
(33:06):
was on social media to parents of kids with autism,
and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands
of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale.
There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral.
The majority of it has been positive from parents in
similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes,
(33:30):
it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child,
sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful.
It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how
to be their advocate and their protector as well as
their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally.
(33:50):
And then there's been some pushback from those who resent
any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a
conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel
like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an
autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to
negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The
(34:14):
fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter,
Hugh made sure to let people know that he had
consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids.
He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis,
and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in
preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also
(34:35):
thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal
but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child
and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to
make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion.
And as I said, I don't want to be another
person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked
in those shoes and still does, I want to say
(34:56):
that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to
just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because
he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk
about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive
voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative
about disability or trying to claim that in some kind
of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents
(35:17):
who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses
or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very
specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child.
And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people
to tell you just how right he got it, because
it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those
(35:39):
things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't
also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a
joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up
and gets on with it more than a parent with
a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed
to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in
my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain
(36:01):
and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse,
do you think that one of the reasons that video
got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as
well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in
that is also a father rather than a mother, and
that almost contributes to the impact.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop
more shit on the Internet than men do as a
general point, but I actually don't think so. I think
that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about
this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he
was a father or a mother. I think there's something
to be said for the time of year that he
(36:42):
wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has
meant a time of great change for kids with autism.
Often can be really, really hard, and I think that
there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so
that's why it struck a particular chord.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I also think.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
People might have just heard the first five or ten seconds,
or seeing criticism and thought that Hugh was talking about
the grief of having a child with autism full stop.
That's actually not what he was saying. What he was
saying is a truth that I remember my grandmother talking about,
you know, when she was raising a child with an
intellectual disability, which is different, but it's the pain of
(37:20):
watching how the world treats that child. And my grand
told this story of she raised her daughter and then
her grandson with an intellectual disability, and sitting on a train.
Simon was quite young at the time, and these schoolboys
mocked him, and they did this thing with their mouth
where they were mocking how he spoke, and she could
see that Simon knew what was happening. That was the pain.
(37:42):
The pain was going. I am feeling my child's pain.
And as a parent, I think what people want more
than anything is to see the world fall in love
with your child and for the world to see them.
It is one of the greatest.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Joys to see them the same way you see.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
To see them the same way you see them. And
my brother, who is a early childhood educator and he
works with kids with specific needs, says that the look
in a parent's face when you see their child, their
child who has autism and maybe there for and their
nonverbal and their behavior is punished in certain circumstances, When
(38:19):
their parents see you connect with them and love them,
that is one of their greatest joys. And that doesn't
happen enough. And for you to say, if all you
get out of this is that when you're in the
shopping center on the weekend and you see a child
having a tantrum, or you see a child reacting in
a way that you have an opinion about, you have
(38:39):
absolutely no idea, and to treat that child and that
parent with compassion.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Like to me, that was the takeaway, and that is
what I took away. You know, I think that the
way we learn about other people and the way that
we become empathetic is by hearing other people's stories and
by other people voicing their experiences. And to me, any
(39:04):
attempt or criticism of so someone's right to do that
or the way that they spoke their truth, and I
know we've spoken about how their truth can be a
bit of a cliche, but like their experience, this idea
that there's only one way that you are allowed, you know,
it's like it's a real policing or a real controlling
(39:27):
of the narrative around I've noticed, particularly around disability, where
any diversion from that path of that it is a gift,
It is a superpower. We only stay positive, we only
talk about the good stuff. You get a lot of
blowback if you dare whether you're a person who is
experiencing that neurodiversity or one of their cares. There is
(39:50):
a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure to
stay silent and not speak about your experience, and I
just don't see why speaking about your experience takes anything
away from the experience of others. I think that we
need to hear from all aspects of the experience around
everything in life. You know, we were just talking about
(40:10):
the importance of hearing from people on a different political
side to you and getting empathy into them. This idea
that there can only be one voice is maddening to me,
and I feel like I've seen this happen to parents
before when they've spoken about their experience of parenting a
child with a disability, and they have been shamed and
(40:30):
silenced and accused of harming other children with disabilities. I
was attacked when I spoke about having ADHD and how
I didn't think it was a superpower and I wish
I could have given it back, And there were a
lot of people were positive, but there was a very
vocal aspect of the neurodiverse community who was very angry
with me and said that I shouldn't say it and
(40:52):
trying to police my speech. And I just think I
think it was a gift what you shared, and it
will change the way I look at kids and parents.
Because I don't have an autistic child, and there's not
one in my immediate day to day life, I wouldn't
necessarily recognize those signs.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah. I also think though, that it's interesting you say
that because this is just this experience is so widespread.
This is in of my friends that have kids. This
is a you know, a really significant portion of parents
that I know, And if you sit down at a
table with parents, this conversation will come up. And to
treat it with this, I saw a comment about radical
(41:32):
acceptance and positivity and how learning that their child had
this was their greatest gift. And I respect and I'm
really happy for that family. But I think that when
you layer on how you're meant to feel.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
And become toxic positive.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, but I understand the complexity of it because I
talked to me are often about ADHD and one of
the things you often say to me and this, and
experts have said this to me, and every professional I've
ever seen they'll say, you know, one of the biggest
issues for a lot of kids who grow up with
the Neuer diversity is shame, right, to be seen that
(42:07):
their neurodiversity is a problem for other people. It makes
other people's lives hard, right, And the reason this is
very complex is it does make other people's lives hard.
Like you said before, Jesse, that all parents want is
for everybody to see how beautiful their kids are. That's true,
and your kid is your number one priority. But also
(42:28):
parents are people. Were just humans, like ordinary humans, with
finite resources, finite amount of energy, finite amounts of patience, patience,
and also finite amounts of knowledge about this stuff. The
average parent who has given a diagnosis for their kid
is not walking around, living and breathing what autism means,
what ADHD means, so they have to learn it is
(42:51):
difficult for them. It's okay for a parent. I think
it needs to be okay for a parent to say
this is exhausting. I am so stressed, and I am
so lonely, and I am so whatever, without being told
that they are being negative. However, the problem is I
don't want your kids and other kids with these issues
(43:13):
to feel like they are making their parents, teachers, care
as friends, lives hard. So it is a really complicated thing,
and I really respect and understand that, and I think
that you've already said this mere but the answer is
lots of different voices and nobody claiming you know, it's
true that someone like you and someone I mean like me,
I guess we have microphones in front of us and
(43:33):
have platforms and audiences and so it's like, well, that
experience will get lifted. But I think that this is
a very specific experience that, as you said, Jesse, affects
a lot of people. But we're just humans, and I
think sometimes you're allowed to say this is really fucking difficult.
Thank you out louders for being here with us today
(43:55):
as always, and to our fabulous team for putting this
show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mum and Me I is the very best
way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
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