July 17, 2025 • 56 mins
Nobody has a personality anymore. At least, that's what Em Vernem thinks, and she's not alone. In writer Freya India's Substack Girls, India critiques the diagnostic lense through which we see the world, and it's seriously blown our minds.
The Salt Path, a heartbreaking 2018 memoir adapted into a hugely successful movie and marketed as 'unflinchingly true', is making headlines this week. Because the truth seems to have been stretched. So what's with memoirs where 'recollections may vary'? And does it really matter?
Plus, Jessie has some heartbreaking news she wants to share.
And our recommendations, including the show that held Mia's attention for 10 hours, a stunning novel by a NYT bestseller, and an action movie Em thinks everyone should watch.
Recommendations
- Mia recommends Too Much and Drive to Survive on Netflix.
- Jessie recommends The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah.
- Em recommends Head of State on Amazon Prime Video.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: The Lies That We're Allowed To Tell
- Listen: The Missing Minute & The Missing Body
- Listen: What Is Going On With Justin Bieber?
- Listen: Microefficiencies & The Politics Of A Mean Group Chat
- Listen: Should Your Family Divorce Your Ex Too?
- Listen: The Sex Chat No Woman Wants To Have
- Listen: WTF is Going On In America Right Now?
- Parenting Out Loud: Sleep Divorce, 'Hopeless' Dads & Goodnight To The Bedtime Story
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief.
I am Jessie Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm m
van Em And here's what's on our agenda for today, Friday,
the eighteenth of July. We couldn't wait until hollywoods back.
We tried, We really tried, but we desperately need to
unpack the Salt Path memoir controversy. I have gone so deep,
(00:41):
my friends.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I have spent I reckon around twenty hours watching two
shows last weekend. I was in binge mode and they
are my recommendations. Plus we have two bits of podcast news.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
And therapy speak, mental health challenges and identity. Does anyone
simply have a personality anymore?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But first, in case you missed it, a couple in
Taiwan have caused a bit of a stir by hiring
pole dancers to perform outside their son's high school graduation
ceremony last month. The event took place in mid June,
just as students were emerging from the junior high school.
Two female dancers began their routine on the street, and
(01:23):
then this is very impressive. They moved onto the roofs
of some SUVs that were rigged with poles for a
full whole performance. The crowd was full of fairly shocked students,
confused parents, and many many phones that were filming. The
star of the show was the graduating student himself, who
(01:43):
looked suitably mortified. I reckon he would have been about
hard to say, maybe fourteen or so.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I heard that he was also pulled into it a
little bit between.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It gets better because the star of the show was
really his mum. She was not only unapologetic, but she
choreographed the routine, and she said she wanted an unforgettable
gift for her son, and she said a friend paid
for a and she wanted it to be a more
creative idea than some of the other parents' gifts for
(02:16):
their kids. And it was it certainly what the police
were called because the crowd gathered and if they're not
have a permit, there was backlash. She'll be shocked to
hear a school official said, we will be encouraging more
rational celebrations moving forward.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is what happens when you give parents creative freedom
to impress the other parents, because that's literally what she
was doing, right. She was like, all these other parents
get to do something fun for their kid. What's something
I can do that shows my skills? And I did
see a video of the dance. I didn't see the
actual pole dancing, but I saw the dance. It's quite impressive,
was it. Yeah, this isn't actually the first pole dancing
(02:55):
incident in China. There was a kindergarten where a principal
invited dancers to perform at the opening ceremony.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Do you think she didn't know that they were sexy dancers?
And maybe he thought that it was kind of a
kind of legal.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Pulled out, aren't. I mean sometimes Stupa's pole dance, But
also there are people who pole dance for sport. I've
done pole dancing classes. It's really hard. I think it
was maybe not quite an Olympic sport, but I think
it was, you know, it's a competitive sport.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I think that we should all light a candle for
the pole dancer in this situation, or any kind of
exotic dancer who is hired to do a job by people,
but the person that it's four hasn't actually opted in.
Can you imagine sexily dancing to someone who's clearly deeply
uncomfortable and doesn't want to be there. I think that
often about Bucks parties. Yeah, when they go, oh, we're
(03:43):
going to send you, and then you turn up as
a worker who's like a really good dancer and he's
very good at what you do, and you're there and
you're like, I don't reckon, he's that into it.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You're there for that one best man you really really wanted.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
It who wanted it a little too much.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
In the eighties, people used to send each other gorilla
grams as a prank. What's that like? It was someone
would turn up in a gorilla suit, usually to your
place of business and do I don't know what they
would actually do.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
This is an actual thing.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, gorilla grams. They were really big in the eighties,
and they would I guess dance. I suppose that it
wouldn't wasn't sexual, but it was just kind of what
was that person signed were designed to. It's like hiring
someone a surprise strooper, but without taking their clothes off there,
which is just fur I.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Want to hire you a gorilla for your birthday? Who
sings you Happy birthday and.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I want the gorilla to also pole dance.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Oh yes, no, Maya would love that to.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Actually like that?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Is it true that nobody has a personality anymore? This week,
freelance writer and author of Girls Newsletter Freyer India published
a subtec post titled Nobody has a personality Anymore. In
the piece, she explains how therapy speak and self diagnosis
have taken over how we talk about ourselves and our relationships,
turning every quirk, feeling, or decision into a symptom to
(05:03):
be analyzed, and in trying to explain everything through a
psychological framework, we've lost language, personality, mystery, and soul In it,
she says, we have lost the sentimental ways we use
to describe people. Not because you are lovably forgetful, not
because you are scattered and interesting and secretly loved for
never arriving on time, but because of ADHD.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
But maybe you're also late, just because you're useless or selfie, sure,
all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Maybe maybe, But also you are shy and stare at
your feet when people talk to you, not because you
are your mother's child, not because you are gentle and sweet,
and blush the same way she does. But autism you
are the way you are, not because you have a soul,
but because of your symptoms and diagnosis. Every heartfelt, annoying,
interesting piece of you categorized the fond way your family
(05:53):
describe you medicalized. The pieces of us once written into
wedding vows read out and eulogies remembered with the smile,
now live on doctor's notes and mental health assessments and
better help applications. We are not people anymore. We have
been products for a long time, and these are our labels.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I think this is hyperbolic. You can be someone with
quirks and very specific characteristics, and you can also have
an autism diagnosis like both of those things can be true.
And if you do go to a wedding or a funeral,
you'll notice that it is not a list of labels.
The way that we remember people or characterize people are
(06:31):
by their contradictions. That is how it happens. But as
with a lot of writing, I think that this writer
is reflecting to a phenomenon that's occurring on the Internet.
And there is such a difference between therapy speak and
therapy culture and sitting down with a psychologist. They're actually
two completely different things. And if you sit down with
a psychologist, they actually aren't trying to label you, and
(06:53):
they're not trying to position every relationship you have as
codependent or an attachment disorder or blah blah blah. They're
trying to see your personality as this complex and always
evolving thing. And what psychologists also will focus on and
have you be more open to, is that personality is
(07:15):
ever changing. Like that's maybe something that I have felt
a little bit shift, is that the way that we're
starting to talk about personality is as though it is
set in stone and it doesn't evolve, but it's always changing.
Of course it is. And that's why I realized reading
this article that she put words around why I love
fiction so much, and the reason I love reading fiction
(07:36):
is because there is no character that has ADHD full stop.
That's the end of their story. It is the contradictions
and the mess and the complications of that person and
then how their traits intersect with plot and have them grow.
By the end of a book, someone's always a different person, Like,
that's what we're watching, and it's that evolution that I'm
(07:56):
invested in.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
How much do you think this is about categorizing other
people as a way to understand them, and how much
she is categorizing ourselves, Like, for example, this idea of narcissist.
That's a word. People don't throw it around about themselves,
but they certainly throw it around about other people. So
you're not just selfish or self absorbed or going through
(08:18):
a time of main character energy, You're a narcissist. And
in the same way people don't feel anxious, they have anxiety.
Now I have a couple of these diagnoses, and I've
found it actually really helpful for understanding my own behavior
and responses to things, like a lens through which I
(08:38):
can see them, but I also can see how very
quickly it becomes boring and a default to just flatten
everything through that lens.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, And there was actually a really interesting data point
in that article, which was according to a twenty twenty
four survey, seventy two percent of gen Z girls said
that mental health challenges are an important part of my identity.
And that worried me because I thought, well, it's the
only way to have their pain validated. That's what it says,
is like I'm pain or I'm feeling distress, and when
(09:12):
I have a label, I remember feeling people will take.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Me more stage.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, people will actually listen to me. And we've always
minimized the pain of young girls, so I can understand
why that's happening. But that's not a recipe for happiness,
I suppose.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
But I also feel like when it comes to diagnosis,
and I was talking to a friend who works in
that social policy space, but I think also when it
comes to understanding why a person is as they are,
For example, if I had a friend who was diagnosed
with depression, Yeah, I think it also allows you, as
(09:47):
a friend or as a family member to kind of
form some sort of empathy around that rather than just
thinking that they are just the way they are, or
like putting a label on it, saying that they are
a narcissist. I was reading a blog post by a
psychotherapist named Musumi Saha, and she said being nervous before
a big event is labeled as anxiety. A disagreement with
(10:08):
someone might be called toxic. Using labels too loosely can
make us see normal emotions as problems. It can make
us feel like we're broken when really we're just human.
And it just made me realize that I have done
this so much where I use therapy speak in my
everyday language to kind of make excuses for things, Like
there's been times I've told friends like, hey, I can't
(10:29):
come out to dinner. I need my depression nap. And
I'm like, I just needed a nap, and I just
happen to have depression. Like, and I think putting that
word depression with everything I say about myself gives me
the excuse to use it in a serious matter without
being serious. And I also use it as a blocker
to stop people from questioning it, Like my friends have
every right to call me out and be like, just
(10:51):
come to dinner.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, they're not going to nap. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And what what I've found through, you know, having the
absolute privilege of at points in my life sitting down
across from a psychologist is is how often they say
to me, not that's normal, but they help explain why
I might need that nap whatever. What they don't do
is tell me I'm abnormal, put a label on it,
and kind of go, that's the way you were built.
(11:17):
Whereas the thing of like the classic TikTok, which is
five things I thought were part of my personality, but
are actually just my ADHD. I don't think that that's
often that helpful. I think probably it's kind of both.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It is both. I think that's exactly right. Having had
that exact experience. My first reaction when I was diagnosed
and had this label was I mean a million but
there was some relief, going, oh, there's a reason for
all of these things. But then there's also a sense
of oh, I thought I had this unique, quirky personality,
(11:52):
but I've just got all these textbook list of symptoms
of this really common neurological condition, on neurodivergent condition.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
So there was actually a US government study done in
twenty twenty one where researchers wanted to figure out what
happens to people when they're given a diagnosis, not just medically,
but also emotionally, socially, and practically, and they said there
were those positive emotions like validation, as in like someone
finally believes me, but it also changed people's self identity
(12:22):
where they started seeing themselves as their condition.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah. I definitely found that that was something I had
to become aware of and then avoid. It's almost like
falling in love and you just want to say that
person's name all the time, and you feel like you've
been giving this roadmap to understanding yourself. But then does
start to sound boring when you just keep going, Oh,
that's my adhd oh, that's medhd, oh, that's my anxiety.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I think it's an attempt to project order onto chaos
as well, right, like, and have a roadmap, and have
a roadmap and something as complex as personality and human relationships,
like when I met my half brother and he was
my mum had him when she was very young, and
he was then adopted and he went and moved overseas
and I met him when he was in his mid thirties,
(13:08):
and having that expl experience exploded my view of what
made personality. That's why there were brilliant moments in this essay. Wait,
I mean it's not as simple as we are a
product of our childhood. It's not as simple as we're
a product of our genes.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
We are large behavior.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And yes, it's this unexplained and the beauty is in
the unexplained.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So do you mean that there were aspects of him
that were really similar to you, even though you were
not raised together.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yes, and aspects that weren't exactly so sitting there, he
had these certain gestures that he made that my mum said, oh,
that was my father. It was like sitting there with
my father, right. And then there were experiences he had
in his twenties, thoughts or crisis he had that were
nearly identical to things that I had gone through. And
so as much as we like to think that we
(13:55):
are the product of how we were parented, or we
are exactly the product of you know, the low dopamine
or serotonin in oup, like, it is this incredibly chaotic,
beautiful mix. And that's why getting to know peace is
so interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It's the getting to know people because I think this
also comes up a lot in dating because I feel
like when we have all these terms like gas lighting, toxic,
it's so easy to chuck that label onto someone because
it's much easier to say that instead of saying, oh,
they just didn't like me. They were doing like all
of these things. And it's even like attachment styles, right,
(14:32):
like oh he was just avoidant and I'm anxious, so
that's why we don't work out. I think it's like
filtering down into the thing. Where as you said, me
like it's a bit of both, and I think what
you said about how you got that sense of relief,
but also it's so hard to not kind of skew
your identity to being that one thing where every single
thing you do you're like, oh, was that because my ADHD.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That's limiting, don't you. Yeah. So I think when it
can become a bit of a prison or a cage
is when you just think, oh, well, I'll never be
able to be on time because I have ADHD, or
I'll always interrupt because I have ADHD, and it can
become cop out's the wrong word, bet limitation.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
The dating example is such a good one because it
is such a time, like the creation of a dating profile,
where we are forced to use labels. It's like, how
do I present myself as a product to be consumed
and liked? And you've kind of got to go, well,
what are my hobbies? What do I do for a living?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Like?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
What are my personality traits? And there was this quote
in the essay that said that happiness is about almost
actually being able to forget yourself. And in a culture
where we're constantly producing.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And being perceived express.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Identity, then we're not able to forget ourselves. We're always
in the process of kind of labeling.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It reminded me a little bit about you know how,
in the last probably decade maybe less, there've been a
whole lot of new names for different types of sexuality,
so pan sexual, polysexual, and be sexual, and they all
mean slightly different things. Instead of just being able to say, oh,
(16:17):
I'm attracted to this person, so it's aboud identity. Like
we're all retreating further and further and wanting to categorize
ourselves more and more, and I need to want to
understand and also belong to a community and which has
been so important for it and not be ordinary. You know,
I think that being able to say I'm this or
I'm that, or I have it. But at a certain point,
(16:38):
when are you just I guess that's the whole point
of this story. When are you just you? When are
you just the sum total of your experiences, your conditions,
your mental health, your opinions, your upbringing, you know, your emotions.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, something that can't be like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
We sort of needing to put all these post it
notes on everything and say, oh, it's my this and
it's my that.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
After reading the sub sac were you able to identify
qualities of your personality that you feel like are just
your personality?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Oh that's such a good question.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I went really deep on the deaf personality after that
because I was like, hang on, what even is personality?
And of course it's the five traits that they talk about,
and some are more stable than others. But we were
talking about this on Parenting Out Loud the other week
and I was saying, we're talking about deeply feeling kids.
This is the term going around, and I was saying,
I worry about labels like that because, particularly in childhood,
(17:30):
personality is changing and you might look at your kid
and go, you're shy and you're timid, and your risk averse.
I have totally done this, and then the next day
they surprise you. And that's how humans are. Yeah, Like,
that's the beauty of a relationship with anyone is that
they will change. And there are some traits like extra version,
introversion apparently stays pretty stable. Others a life event will
(17:53):
absolutely transform you. I feel as though I have a
different personality, probably since having a baby, for a variety
of reasons. And I know people have to profound grief
or you know, experiencing a particular trauma or whatever, the
personality changes.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Because I am the type of person who like constantly
uses therapy language in my every day. There's like a
celebrity who I find myself quoting every single week. It's
Jami mccirk. Yeah, you know, she played Jessa and Girls.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I think I know this quo.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Oh it's so good. So she does like I think
once a year she does his big ask Me any
Things on Instagram where she puts a question box up
and the audience asked her question.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
And she's quite candid.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
She's so so candid. And one of the questions he
got years ago someone wrote in and said any advice
for unconfident young girls? And she just replied, I think
you guys might be thinking about yourselves too much. And
I say that to myself all the time.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Out louders up. Next, does a memoir need to be
vigorously fact checked? And whose job is that we discuss
the Salt Path controversy. We have been desperate to talk
about the Salt Path controversy, and we're gonna wait until
Hollywood's back because we would like to put it on
the record in this moment that one miss Hollywayn Wright
(19:12):
recommended the Salt Path.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Member what Holly recommended?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I listened, Mia Friedman, I listened, and I wrote in
my journal Hollywayin Wright just recommended the Salt Path so
that I could bring it up today and say, haha,
history will not be kind to hollid On No, because yes,
this is very controversial. We got too impatient, though, and
so today we want to start from the beginning. And
I like that Holly has no right of reply.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
She's going to reply the match she gets back.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I just know it. So.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
The soult Path is a memoir that was published in
twenty eighteen and it was written by Rayner Wynn and
it has since sold more than two million copies. That
is a lot of copies. In twenty twenty four, was
turned into a film. The main characters were Gillian Anderson
and Jason Isaacs.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
It was white Lotus.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah. It was marketed as unflinchingly true. It tells a
story of how Rayner, who was fifty five at the time,
and her husband moth Win, lost their home after investing
a substantial sum of money in a company owned by
a friend that ultimately failed. It was kind of the
gray nomad thing right, But it was also playing into
(20:17):
something that impacts a lot of people in their fifties
sixty seventies, particularly women of homelessness. Where you go, I've
worked my whole life and I've ended up at this
point where i have nothing but the things of my
back pap.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I've never heard of this book, so I've come to
this like a lot of people reading about the controversy
without any knowledge of the source text. It sounds like
the Salt Path. The book was a little bit like
Cheryl Strade's Wild Wild, Yes, someone going on is why
I didn't hear of it? Someone going on a long
walk in nature? Yeap, not by kind of book exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And on top of this, the reason why this book
was so impactful is that Moth had been diagnosed with
a rare neuro degenerative disease and they decide to then
embark on this kind of a name is moth, Well,
I think it comes from because his name is Tim,
So Tim Moth. I've never heard moth. Yeah, as a
little so.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Instead of the nickname being Tim, it's moth like moth, shallow.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Man, endearing pet name. They both decided they were going
to walk along the Southwest Coast Path in southwest England.
And look, that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Book's so horrendous. People love.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It's like a self help kind of situation.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I mean, I love to eat pray loves.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So it's like eat pray love except a couple yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, on a long walk and this illness and
the idea is as well that you know, he's been
given certain things to expect from this illness, and the
walking really helped and that was part of the story.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
My understanding is that the illness, the diagnosis is usually
pretty terminal and not something that you can walk off.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
No, so you often have a life expectancy of about
six to eight years. Okay, now, this is all well
and good, except according to an article in The Observer
which was published earlier this month, they were never homeless.
They did lose one home, but that was a result
of embezzling the equivalent of about eighty five thousand Australian dollars.
There are also questions about Moth's illness. And that's not
(22:13):
even his real name, and Rayner is not her real name.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Wait, so he chose the name Moth.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Well, They're real names are Sally and Tim. Sally and
Tim Walker.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
That doesn't have the same ren it does it.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I liked the Rainer and the moth that I can
kind of forgive in a memoir if you want to
have a kind of pen name situation. Yeah, fine, it's
probably the other stuff that isn't so forgivable. Look Sally
stole that substantial sum of money while working as a
bookkeeper in the mid two thousands, but they settled the
dispute privately. The details get really weedy here, but long
(22:45):
story short, debt collectors took their home and Sally Walker
has written a very long blog post where she's confirmed this.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So interestingly, one reason for changing your name is that
people can't then google you and find things out about you.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Also, the reason they were ever really homeless is because
they did have a property technically in France that they
still owned throughout all of this. The Observer then cast
outs on Walker's illness. They interviewed multiple medical experts who
said that, you know, the average life expectancy is six
to eight years, and I think it's now eighteen years later,
Tim Walker is still alive. What has Raina Win said?
(23:22):
So she's written this big blog post and she says
that the house in France was uninhabitable. It was just
like basically stones like you couldn't live there and they
couldn't sell it. Actually looks like she might be telling
the truth about that, right. She has also shared documents
that seem to confirm her husband's diagnosis, although some say
you're a little bit vague on the details, and a
(23:43):
lot of people with this specific illness. This is the
issue with writing about health is that it became sort
of prescriptive to them, and they had this hope that
maybe if I just did a long walk, then I
too could improve a lot of mon Yes, so there's
a lot to unpack here. Mea what kind of responsibility
do you think the publisher has here to fact check?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want to jump past the publisher and talk about
the first right, because a lot of people who read
this book, who loved this book, have said, I'm really
really upset. We have a similar thing happened many years
ago with an author called James Frey who wrote a
memoir called A Million Little Pieces. He was not an
Oprah's Book Club. It then turned out that his memoir
(24:27):
most of it all, I think all of it wasn't true.
That was a huge controversy. We've had these before. Helen
de Medenko a long time ago. I think she said
she was Yugoslavian, but she was just an Australian who
was not Yugoslavian, and that was not her name. Her
name is Helen Darvil. So my question about when you
(24:47):
read something that you think is memoir, because I read
a million little pieces I thought it was great. When
I found out that a lot of it wasn't true,
did I care or no? Because we have something called fiction,
and I mean, I understand that it's storytelling. Is it
not just as good?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Oh, it's totally different. It's totally it's an element of
absolute manipulation. And I think that what's an important point
to make is that nonfiction is easier to sell. It's
easy to market. The reason it's easy to market I
was told this. I've written a nonfiction book and a
fiction book. Nonfiction people want to interview because story. How
many fiction writers, unless they're Leanne Moriarty, do you actually hear?
(25:29):
It's really hard to get your fiction book in front
of people's eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Because it's like, tell me about this made up story.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
It's like yeah, yeah, So if you say this is
nonfiction this is a true story, the investment of a reader,
and I think that a book is very different to
any other type of media because of how long you
spend with those people, the details that you absorb, the hope,
the connections that you make, and then to find out
that isn't true feels like such an enormous betrayal and
(25:56):
I'm so surprised. I was listening to a podcast about
this where they were saying that the way the contract
works is that the publisher has Rayner signed something, where
Rayner says this is all true. Basically, the onness is
on the author, and Rayner got a very small book
advance for this. I think it was maybe like ten
(26:17):
pounds twenty thousand pounds. Since she's made millions and millions
of dollars off royalties, but this keeps happening, it seems
because legally, I don't think that the onus is on
the publisher. I think it's on the writer.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, I've written a couple of memoirs. I can't remember
if I signed anything. I mean, they're always worried about
anything legal, so anything where you talk about other people
or make claims about other people.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But it's not like they would have sat down with
your mum and dad and gone, hey, this story that
may have told about being four, was that true?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
No, And they don't ask for medical records. No, no, no,
because that would be intrusive. Although in the case of
something like Bell Gibson, there was a huge amount of
backlash and criticism of the publisher, which I think was
valid because if you know, in my memoir, I wrote
about having a miscarriage, I wrote about anxiety, I wrote
about various things, but I didn't write about curing myself
(27:13):
of a particular.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I think that's where the difference comes in because this book,
although it's a memoir, like labeled as a memoir, it's
more like a self help kind of book. Like that
book would have had exactly what you said, so many
people readers in like a chokehold of going this is
the book that is going to help me through like
my next stage. And I remember something so different, but
I know the exact sense of betrayal because my favorite
(27:36):
movie for the longest, longest time was The blind Side. Yeah,
and that was based on a true story. Sandra Bullock
wan Academy Awards for it. It was a massive movie.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
What was it about?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Again, it was about this family, this really successful, rich
family in Memphis who adopted a black kid and took
them into his family and he became this massive football star.
And the blindside was about how he became huge. He
went into college and they funded all of that and
he was just making a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
And beautiful success story, beautiful but.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
True and how did it come out?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So then after that we found out that the child
that the movie was about, Michael Orr, was suing the
Touwy family that was Sandra Bullock was suing that family
saying that he actually wasn't adopted, he was under a
conservatorship and the family was taking all the money that
he was making and taking all the money that the
(28:33):
movie was made from Hollywood. And it was one of
those situations that was so so horrible. And then he
said a lot of the stuff that happened in the
movie was not true, Like he could actually read and
write and he was well educated. The huge racial stereotypes
are happening, and it just was one of those things
whereas as someone who was so invested in that film,
(28:54):
I was just digging and digging and digging to see
if this could be unproven because there was just something
that really watched when I was really young, and I
just wanted it to be true so badly.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I read a book when I was a teenager called
Forbidden Love, and it was Alakuri a Norma Kouri, and
it was about her growing up in Jordan and her
best friend Dahlia, who fell in love with like a
Christian soldier and ultimately died by an honor killing that
her father was responsible for.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
She wrote, she told the story of her best friend, yes,
he was killed, yes.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And then she moved to the US and it was
this phenomenon, this book, right, And then it was actually
Australian journalists Malcolm Knox and I think Caroline Overington was
really involved in the reporting. Where they went there was
something like seventy two factual inaccuracies, really basic stuff like
the border of Jordan was wrong, the banknotes were wrong,
like all of these kind of and they were like,
(29:49):
this is really really strange. And then people within Jordan
started saying, this is not a big country. We would
have heard. This is like a horrific thing to happen.
We would have heard. And so they dig and they
dig and they dig. Turns out this woman never existed,
like Norma Kuri hadn't even been in Jordan at that time.
There's a brilliant document called Forbidden Lies that Caroline Overington
(30:12):
is in. It had to be pulled from shelves, like
the book was totally fictional. And the reason why that
was so bad was because it came out in two
thousand and three, that is two years after September eleventh.
The anti Muslim sentiment, the Islamophobia that was so prevalent
at the time. People were so invested in having this
(30:34):
vision of kind of the oppressed Muslim woman. And to
write this, to have me so emotionally invested in that
book and go, this is such a tragedy, look at
how these cultures work. It just was a totally fictional story.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I know it's hard to unscramble how you feel about something.
But had that been categorized as fiction, you're saying it
wouldn't have sold as well. No, but would you have
enjoyed reading it as much? Or there's something and new
for the blind side? Is there something about knowing that
it's true that enhances your enjoyment of a sect?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
It totally changed a conversation when you're told it's true
one hundred percent, And even with that book, it's also
because those code be true.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Stories like honor killings do happen. So I feel like
making up a fake story about that and then making
so much money and moving to the US when it
actually is happening in the world is just another step
way too fun.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
It's exploiting. It's totally exploiting a culture that you actually
have no right to write about. And what's interesting too
is a James Fray example. And I believe in this
example there's a big question mark about what happens to
the money. Yes, because James Frey, I'm pretty sure he's
still a pretty rich dude, and a lot of the readers,
because this is in the US, readers suit him like
(31:49):
individual ratings for life. I want to be compensated.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I think their publishers often allow people to refunds, get refunds,
but did you get a refund?
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, what's funny is you might have a few refunds.
Do you know how many people have bought The Salt
Path in the last few weeks? Like the book, scan
numbers would have just skyrocket and.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Watched the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, So in terms of the money.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There was an interview with Jillian Anderson. This is before
all this came out and people are now going back
and looking. When she was promoting the movie, someone said, oh,
did you meet Rayner? How did you find her? And
Jillian Anderson said, I found her guarded Jerry, Yeah, which
was kind of cryptic.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
You know who I want to hear from Jason Isaacs
because from White Loaders, we all know he's a messy bitch. Yeahs.
Friendships are made, friendships are lost.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
The dad on White Lotus with his prosthetic penis co moth.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Tell us your opinion before we go into eCos. I
wanted to share a low from the week that just passed.
We talk a bit about sharing from a scar, not
a wound, but I think sometimes there's a bit of
utility in examining the wound while it's fresh. And while
we were recording Wednesday Show last week, I was going
(33:06):
through something privately, and that night I tried to put
words around it. So here's what I wrote. I'm sitting
in the hospital where I gave birth to my daughter
almost exactly two years ago, but this time I'm not
in a bed with a bassinette tucked in close beside it.
I'm in emergency, handing over yarine samples with specks of blood,
knowing in some part of me that I've just had
(33:27):
or I'm having a miscarriage. It's so silly. I tested
so ridiculously early. At first, I didn't even think I
saw a line that. Then I looked closer. You know
you're desperate when you take a photo and start adjusting
the contrast. There was the faintest line, a whisper of
a promise your life could be about to radically change, or,
as the case may be, not at all. The next
(33:49):
day the line was a bit darker than a bit
darker visible to the naked eye. At least I told
Luca and my sister. I was so excited. I worked
out the jew date, the gap between my babies. I
was asked about a work commitment slaid in for early
next year, and meekly tried to pry my way out
of it. They'd know soon enough. I thought about it
every second of every day. It's like the knowledge existed
(34:12):
in my pulse, and I suppose it literally did. I'd
been afraid of how much I wanted this. It feels
dangerous to want anything this much. Months have passed negative tests.
I didn't know I could feel so much disdain for
a pad, but then a positive test. No alcohol, no
Quadrill pregnancy vitamins. The sore boobs were a giveaway. I
(34:35):
remembered them from last time, but they're not sore anymore.
I was at the doctor when it happened. Luna had
a cold, and I darted to the bathroom as we
finished up. I'd been spotting, but when I wiped there
was blood, too much blood, and there were cramps like
an ache in my lower stomach and back.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
It hurt.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
But where did the knowing come from? That night, as
I laid in bed having taken panadole, which felt like
a betrayal of some kind, like I was muting an alarm,
I felt lonely. They were gone, disappeared. I'd liked so
much knowing that they were there, and I wasn't grieving
a baby. I can't imagine losing a baby further along,
(35:14):
when they're a tiny thing your body has got to know,
as familiar as your own shadow, a companion through everything.
I was grieving hope, the future that i'd let unfold,
the excitement, and for a moment other people's joy is
all I see. She is pregnant, she has just had
her third She's walking down the street with two little ones,
(35:34):
so close in age, with no idea how lucky she is.
I'm being assaulted by pregnant bellies and ultrasound pictures and
family photos. And they're beautiful, but they're also brutal to
the people I empathized with before this. I'm sorry that
I didn't understand. I didn't understand the impatience, the frustration,
the grief, the anger, the isolation that it can feel
(35:56):
like you lost something you only ever really saw. I
experienced early what so many women go through much later,
and it is awful to experience a pregnancy you wanted
more than anything leave your body. However more however, early
leaves you with an emptiness, a silence, something that is
over before it ever properly began. And I didn't want
(36:17):
this story to be a footnote to a pregnancy announcement,
hopefully someday down the track, a story of victory over
struggle where it didn't matter so much because we got
our healthy baby in the end. Because right now that's
not where I am, or where so many people are.
I'm sitting in the silence, the emptiness, and I hate
it here. So I want to say it in case
(36:37):
you've ever been here, or you're here now, or you
find yourself here one day stunned by how much it hurts.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Sweetheart, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, and
I'm so glad that you wrote that, because that's beautiful.
You've put words around something that so many women have
gone through, and so many women will go through, and
it's really hard thing to explain, even to partner, even
to your closest friends. It's very unique. It's a weird
(37:05):
type of grief.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I've spoken to so many women working in this office,
like who I've spoken about it, have been at work,
been in a meeting, gone to the bathroom, and this
kind of private tragedy has occurred, and I thought I
knew it was bad. I don't think I ever understood
the complicated and like embodied emotion of it. I was,
(37:29):
of course, you just frantically google and one of the
symptoms that you're losing a pregnancy is grief, like you
actually do. It's like your body, like your cells feel
like a changing. Oh, your hormones are changing and yeah, yeah,
and the palpable grief. I've never been so sure of anything.
And I think when you go with symptoms like obviously
(37:49):
bleeding is quite normal in early pregnancy, and so people
are reassuring or trying to be reassuring.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But it was you knew.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I just absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Knew, no matter how early it is. And like I
so many women get conscious of like throat clearing going
and it was early, and I just I can't imagine
what it's like. There's no there's no leaderboard of who
gets to be the most sad. It's a type of
grief that transcends how many weeks.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And I completely understand why people and I so appreciate
people before me having talked about it. And even as
it was happening, I kind of had a prism through
which to understand what was happening because I'd heard other
women talk about it, and I understand the vulnerability of
being in the moment. Even saying like I'm trying really
hard at this thing and it's not working.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Is like do you feel like a failure? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Quite shameful, like that I.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Had one job, my body had one job. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
But then there's this awareness of like the privilege of
having fallen pregnant accidentally and having a healthy pregnancy and
a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
But also knowing that when you talked about your boobs
and like you knew. Yeah, Like I think that would
just feel like your betrayal.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, it's like an embodied Like it's such an embodied experience.
I suppose to be pregnant and you feel I've heard
women talk about body.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, embodied. It's so visceral, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
Yeah, And that's why it feels like a loss only
you can see because no one else can feel it,
and your partner can be. So it's a grief for
the partner too, because you're so excited but they didn't
know them.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
And it's also there's no proof that this person existed, Like, now,
how do I honor this person? There's no I haven't
even told people that I was pregnant, so how can I.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
I kept taking pregnancy tests and there's the saddest image.
I said, I said to Luca, this is the saddest
image I've ever seen. But it's a pregnancy test. It
still so's positive, but on the urine stick there's blood
because I knew that it was and I just had
to keep checking and checking and checking, and then I
had to keep that because I was like, it's the
only evidence that this thing actually happened, because I feel
(39:59):
a bit insane right now, Like I feel as though, oh, okay,
I just had this health thing happened, and then I
go home and we get on with things.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And no one even knows this profound Like I saw
you last week and yeah, I didn't know, like this
profound thing was happening inside your body and women are
extraordinary carry with it and get on with it, because
what are the rituals as well? Like what are the
rituals for miscarriage? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
What are you meant to do? Other than go? And
I'm sure that they, you know, must get asked this
question all the time. But it's like, well, when can
I try again? Can I? Yeah? When's it going to happen?
Like they I've never felt impatience like this ever, Like
it's yeah, it's such a bizarre mix of emotions. And
I know that the stats that it's so so common,
(40:46):
and there is something comforting in that knowing that it's
not that you're defective. It's like it does happen a lot,
but yeah, something only only women can understand and out Louders.
If this brings things up for you, then there are
resources in the show notes. We're thinking of you because
we know how many of you will have been impacted by.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
This sort of thing. So many outlouders we'll want to
reach out to you by DM are in the out
Louders group or comments or whatever, and so many people
will be moved and grateful and have big feelings. But
you'll read what you can. You but you know you
just need time to process it all. So in advance,
thanks out louders for on Jesse's behalf or your love
(41:26):
that we know that you'll have. After the break, We've
got some recommendations for you, including the show Everyone's Talking About,
a grouping World War two era novel, and a comedy
gem starring Idris Elba and John Cena. Oh you about that?
Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
(41:49):
and me. A subscribers follow the link in the show
notes to get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
This is my best recommendation. It is Friday, so the
show's not over. We want to help set your weekend
up with some recommendations. And if you've got to spare
ten hours, you don't have to watch all ten hours
at once. I did so too much. We spoke about
it on Monday's show. Well, we spoke about Lina Dunham,
(42:28):
who is the writer, creator and director of this show.
It's on Netflix, and Netflix don't space things out, they
do let you binge. It's about ten hours worth. Yeah,
I would say a little London.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
So I'm god actually about because I one hundred percent
going to watch.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
It's her story. We're talking about memoir, but it's fictionalized memoir,
so similar to parts of your book about depression, it
can be a way for people to tell an aspect
of their story without having to be faithful to every
single detail, or like Strife with My story, where it
actually gives you a lot more creative license. But anyway,
(43:07):
so Lena Dunham, after the success of Girls and everything
that happened in America, as we spoke about on Monday
and go Back, We've had so many comments of people
just loving that episode. It was such a great week.
I'm glad you loved it because we love doing it.
It was like a big, chunky, deep dive into Lena
and the Girls phenomenon. But she ended up leaving America
and going to the UK to direct. She had a
(43:30):
couple of opportunities over there, and she decided that she
just needed to get away. She had a bad break
up after a long term relationship, and pretty early on
after she arrived in the UK, she met this musician
kind of unlikely match in a way, but they fell
in love and she and he got married. It's not
really a spoiler because this is well known. They got
married I think a year after meeting each other, maybe
(43:52):
seven months, And this just tells the story of you know,
this Lena type character played by Megan Stalter. You might
remember her from Hacks, and she's sort of like our
unlikely protagonist in that she doesn't look the way a
Hollywood protagonist looks into a twenty five or has really
(44:12):
ever looked outside of Lena Dunham production. And that's not
even the story that just you know is incidental, yeah, incidental, Jess.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Something has shifted with you, Josh Hi, how are you girl?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Are you good? You're unhappy living me. It's the worst
thing that everyone's ever done. Change your life. Go to London, seriously,
you love London.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
You saw a Spice World nine times in the theater.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I could do it. I could go and find my
English dream. You know, a state ground starting gardens, good luck,
We don't love. I'm talking to a girlfriend about it
who said it certainly wouldn't pass the Is it called the.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Bechdel test, I'd say, bechetel.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
H d e L. It's a test by a cartoonist
called Allison Bechell Look Bechdel. It looks at movies and
TV shows and basically says, if the women in every
sort of scene are talking about men more their relationships,
that just sort of signifies that it's not really about
female characters, and this would not pass that because it's
(45:26):
very much a rom com. It's about the love story.
And it also goes back and through a series of flashbacks,
looks at these two sort of flawed characters who interrogate
their past and how did they become sort of traumatized
in different ways. It's bloody funny. It's written in just
the most glorious way by Lena. It's got that great
dialogue that's clever, but not like punishingly clever, you know,
(45:50):
where it's just like, well, no one actually talks like that.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
It's really funny.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
What did you love about it?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I love Okay. Firstly, I loved Will Sharp, who plays
the romantic interest. He was in White Loadus season two. Yes,
so good looking, he's really really good.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
He was married to Aubrey Plaza, Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And White Loats. What I loved about The Human is
that it's very summer to Girls. It took me a while,
if you're a big Girls fan, to not see this
character as Hannah from Girls.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
I kept thinking they were meant to be the same
person and then not. It's like two completely different characters.
But it's like Lena Dunham's humor, which is very fast paced,
very funny, that you have to constantly play catch up
where you're like, oh my god, that was so funny,
And then I found myself rewinding things to like rehear them.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
I wanted to go back and watch the whole season again,
which I never do. Some of the most glorious cameos
Naomi Watts. Yes, oh my god, she's In a few episodes,
she plays just the most phenomenal character. Jennifer Saunders makes
an appearance and Scott the hot priest from Fleabag.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Jessica alba Ura.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, it's it's amazing. Oh yeah, it made me like him. Rada,
I buried the lead. This actually made me like em.
Rada plays a knitting influencer model that her ex boyfriend
then gets together with, and she was really good.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
She was to watch this. That's gonna be my weekend one.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I can't recommend it enough. The other show I watched,
which I know I'm not allowed to recommend, well, it's
against the rules because it's already been recommended. But I've
just discovered Drive to Survive.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Stop is ahead of us on this. She's the person
I can talk to.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Well. The good news about that is that if you
go back to the beginning like I did, I've just
got hours and hours an hour.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
You're talking to people who don't even exist.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I know. I'm on out of season three. This is
the behind the sense of Formula one. It's become a
massive hit with women. Very clever marketing move by f one. Jesse,
what are you recommending?
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I'm going to recommend a book. It is called The
Nightingale by Kristen Hannah. It is not brand new, but
I have been for the last few months struggling to
get through anything same. I am picking up books that
everyone says are amazing, like hits that everyone's talking about,
and I'm like, I can't finish this.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I've got a question, when do you make the call
to keep pushing through or not? Are you a pusher througher?
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I'm a I'll read a chapter and go not for
me one chapter, Yeah, but the last few I've read,
I've gotten three quarters away through and I'm not actually
invested in how.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
This finished it.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
I'm gonna push it through it even if I hate it.
I have to finish it.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Chapter is sure Jesse, Wow, I can tell by the
writing and also like how much stock I've got the writer? Yeah,
but this a few friends said to me. This is
just super super readable, but also top of the New
York Times bestseller list. This author has written a few
really really good books.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I've heard about it. What's it about? Because I also
need a book that's going to push me out of
my rut, so.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
This will one hundred percent do that. It is set
in World War two France, and it follows two sisters
and their resistance to the Nazis. That sounds like really heavy,
but it's not like I'm just really invested in the
day to day lives of these two women. And it's
not like hectic historical fiction where it feels dense like it.
(48:57):
It's very very readable.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
How does it compare to The Safe Keep, because that
was the last historical fiction that you I couldn't get
through it. You couldn't get through every week raving about.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
The Safety Oh I loved the Safe couldn't get through it.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
So how does it compare to that?
Speaker 3 (49:09):
I would say similar, And I would also put that
in the same realm as The Bronze Horseman, which is.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
All I loved the Bronze Horsemen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
So it's about female war heroes broadly and the stories
that we don't hear, and also how everyone's resistance looks different.
So these two sisters resist the Nazis in very specific
ways that might at point seem small, but are also
grounded in like historical accuracy, Like what one of the
sisters did is something that was done during the war
(49:36):
and made me think about how you know the marches
are for the men, the Anzac Day March, but broadly
it's been mostly for the men who come back. But
what happened in the four or five years when they
were gone? What did these women do and what did
they experience? And I didn't know that some of the
Nazis in this French town were billeted to homes. And
what that means is that, my god, I didn't know that. Yeah,
(49:57):
so you would be living in a house and a
Nazi would knock on the door and go, hey, I'm
gonna need that room and just live in your house.
You're a vulnerable woman, often with children like alone. And
also I always find really interesting the details about rations
and food and the cold and just the horrendous conditions
that people lived through. I was deeply, deeply moved by it.
(50:19):
So it's called The Nightingale. I'm going to go back
and read read her others, but it's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Okay, I have a movie I want to recommend that
I feel like I'll have to really convince you guys
to watch. But if Holly was here, should be all around.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Okay, all right, she's probably already saying.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
That it's called Heads of State, and it's on Prime
Video and it stars Idris Elba, John Cena, yeah, and
Preaka Chopra. But oh, I love all of them, all
of them. So John Cena plays a Hollywood A list
turned US President of the United States.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Oh sounds for me. I love him so much.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
He's funny, he's really funny. And Idris Elba plays like
a really tough, quiet military guy who's now the Prime
Minister of the UK.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
It's the Prime Minister, it's the president.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Debute duet do it? Yeah, it's like doctor Dre and
your Eminem and we're taking that stage for the first
time again.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I'm Eminem. What is it you're walking around thinking you
better than nobody else? You are the commander in chief?
Speaker 2 (51:25):
You know some DJ in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
All right, I get it. You don't like my movies.
I've never seen your movies. But the universe keeps telling
me I look cool with a gun in my head.
That's how I go.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
They both also start in did you have watch Suicide Squad? No,
it's not like a massive, massive movie, but it's like
Suicide Squad is like the Nuggo Robbie in that yes, yeah, yeah,
So they would start in that together. Everyone really liked
them together, so now they're doing this movie together. And
it's actually a buddy comedy, so it's like comedy action pace,
but it's about these two massive political figures who are
(52:01):
getting hunted by these assassins, and the assassins are trying
to destroy all these peace treaties that around the world
and they're just chasing them around the world. And Pianka
Chopa plays a CIA agent who's the only one who
actually knows what's going on. It is really really funny.
Your boomer dad or your twein son will love it.
There's a big family exactly.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Catch my dad watching at one pm on a Saturday.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yeah, oh my god, me and your dad.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That's on. My criteria for that is no sex scenes.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
There's no sex scenes.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Tick done.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I think there might be one kissing scene. That's all right,
that's fine, Okay. I'm also going to break the rules
and do one more recommendation. And so you know how,
I host The Spill, our daily entertainment podcast. Our little
Spill family is growing. We have a new offering called
Morning Tea. So you are now going to be getting
two episodes of the Spill every day. So Morning Tea
(52:49):
gets released at eight am. It's a five minute episode.
It's hosted by Ash London, who's absolutely brilliant, and she
gives you your entertainment, pop culture, celebrity news headlines of
the day.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
I love this wiki.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
It's kind of like the quickie bit first entertainment.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
But for fluffy things. So I love this because it's
interesting that research continues to show that women are increasingly
experiencing news a version that they are wanting to turn
away from the news. The quickie is a fantastic option
for those people who want to get across the news
in a non anxious, sensationalist way. But sometimes you just
(53:26):
don't want that, or you want that and then you
want you want to stuff. So this is always used
to be my favorite part of the news or when
in the old days of breakfast television, the bits that
Richard Wilkins used to do, or whoever it was, and
this is just all the celebrity news. So it's just
like a catch up in the morning and then in
the afternoon you and you're still a Rodney Spell episode. Yes,
(53:48):
do a bit more of a deep dive on particular stories,
but this just like covers you off with the headlines.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
It's all wonderful And this is all in the spill Feed,
All in the spell Feed, host by Ashlandon, who's so brilliant.
She knows so much about celebrity and pop culture.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I love her. And the other bit of pod news
we had for you is that I know a lot
about ladders. Have really loved the six weeks of Parenting
out Loud that we've done, Jesse you hosting with Emilia
lest Andy Stacy Hicks. We sort of did that as
a bit of an experiment and everyone has loved it. Yeah,
(54:23):
I love it. It's one of my favorite shows because
I'm not on it so I can just listen as
a listener. We weren't expecting to carry this show on,
so it's taking a little bit of parental leave while
we think about what's going to happen next. But if
you are interested in being the first to know when
Parenting out Loud and if it comes back, we will
(54:44):
put a link in the show notes so that you
can follow along in that feed and maybe go and
have a listen to the six episodes that we've already done. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
That was such It was so so much fun and
it was a lot of parenting podcasts, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
I think that our resistance as well was like, we
don't want to get on and just talk about our
kids and.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Chiefs first, sleeping, life, stage, lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
Yeah, it's more the conversation that you have, all the
things that you read or gravitate to. We wanted it
to be thinkier, treat parents like adults instead of like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:18):
It's not actually about kids, it's about sort of heads out. Yeah,
so it's kind of zeitguys, similar to out Loud, but
through a parenting lens. It's just so great, and lots
of people who aren't parents have said that they really
really love it. Anyway, we'll put a link in the
show notes if you want to follow that feed and
catch up with it.
Speaker 3 (55:34):
That's all we have time for today. A big thank
you to all of you the out louders for listening
to today's show. We will be back in your ears
on Monday, and we've got a little present for you
because Hollywayne right been on her euro trip, which has
been posting a lot about, which has been pissing me
off because it looks very warm. Lots of app roles
shall be back joining us behind the mic, so meet
(55:56):
us there on Monday.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Divine,
our audio producer Leah Porges, video producer Josh Green, and
our junior content producers co Co and Tessa. We will
be back in your ears on Monday.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
And if you want something else to listen to, yesterday's
subscriber episode, we tackled a bunch of very juicy dilemmas,
from how to deal with a colleague's questionable cooking to
a tricky parenting moral dilemma. A link will be in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Shout out to any Mom and Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Welcome to mummya out loud where women come to debrief.
I am Jessie Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm m
van Em And here's what's on our agenda for today, Friday,
the eighteenth of July. We couldn't wait until hollywoods back.
We tried, We really tried, but we desperately need to
unpack the Salt Path memoir controversy. I have gone so deep,
(00:41):
my friends.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I have spent I reckon around twenty hours watching two
shows last weekend. I was in binge mode and they
are my recommendations. Plus we have two bits of podcast news.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
And therapy speak, mental health challenges and identity. Does anyone
simply have a personality anymore?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But first, in case you missed it, a couple in
Taiwan have caused a bit of a stir by hiring
pole dancers to perform outside their son's high school graduation
ceremony last month. The event took place in mid June,
just as students were emerging from the junior high school.
Two female dancers began their routine on the street, and
(01:23):
then this is very impressive. They moved onto the roofs
of some SUVs that were rigged with poles for a
full whole performance. The crowd was full of fairly shocked students,
confused parents, and many many phones that were filming. The
star of the show was the graduating student himself, who
(01:43):
looked suitably mortified. I reckon he would have been about
hard to say, maybe fourteen or so.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I heard that he was also pulled into it a
little bit between.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
It gets better because the star of the show was
really his mum. She was not only unapologetic, but she
choreographed the routine, and she said she wanted an unforgettable
gift for her son, and she said a friend paid
for a and she wanted it to be a more
creative idea than some of the other parents' gifts for
(02:16):
their kids. And it was it certainly what the police
were called because the crowd gathered and if they're not
have a permit, there was backlash. She'll be shocked to
hear a school official said, we will be encouraging more
rational celebrations moving forward.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
This is what happens when you give parents creative freedom
to impress the other parents, because that's literally what she
was doing, right. She was like, all these other parents
get to do something fun for their kid. What's something
I can do that shows my skills? And I did
see a video of the dance. I didn't see the
actual pole dancing, but I saw the dance. It's quite impressive,
was it. Yeah, this isn't actually the first pole dancing
(02:55):
incident in China. There was a kindergarten where a principal
invited dancers to perform at the opening ceremony.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Do you think she didn't know that they were sexy dancers?
And maybe he thought that it was kind of a
kind of legal.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Pulled out, aren't. I mean sometimes Stupa's pole dance, But
also there are people who pole dance for sport. I've
done pole dancing classes. It's really hard. I think it
was maybe not quite an Olympic sport, but I think
it was, you know, it's a competitive sport.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I think that we should all light a candle for
the pole dancer in this situation, or any kind of
exotic dancer who is hired to do a job by people,
but the person that it's four hasn't actually opted in.
Can you imagine sexily dancing to someone who's clearly deeply
uncomfortable and doesn't want to be there. I think that
often about Bucks parties. Yeah, when they go, oh, we're
(03:43):
going to send you, and then you turn up as
a worker who's like a really good dancer and he's
very good at what you do, and you're there and
you're like, I don't reckon, he's that into it.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You're there for that one best man you really really wanted.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
It who wanted it a little too much.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
In the eighties, people used to send each other gorilla
grams as a prank. What's that like? It was someone
would turn up in a gorilla suit, usually to your
place of business and do I don't know what they
would actually do.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
This is an actual thing.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, gorilla grams. They were really big in the eighties,
and they would I guess dance. I suppose that it
wouldn't wasn't sexual, but it was just kind of what
was that person signed were designed to. It's like hiring
someone a surprise strooper, but without taking their clothes off there,
which is just fur I.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Want to hire you a gorilla for your birthday? Who
sings you Happy birthday and.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I want the gorilla to also pole dance.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Oh yes, no, Maya would love that to.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Actually like that?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Is it true that nobody has a personality anymore? This week,
freelance writer and author of Girls Newsletter Freyer India published
a subtec post titled Nobody has a personality Anymore. In
the piece, she explains how therapy speak and self diagnosis
have taken over how we talk about ourselves and our relationships,
turning every quirk, feeling, or decision into a symptom to
(05:03):
be analyzed, and in trying to explain everything through a
psychological framework, we've lost language, personality, mystery, and soul In it,
she says, we have lost the sentimental ways we use
to describe people. Not because you are lovably forgetful, not
because you are scattered and interesting and secretly loved for
never arriving on time, but because of ADHD.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
But maybe you're also late, just because you're useless or selfie, sure,
all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Maybe maybe, But also you are shy and stare at
your feet when people talk to you, not because you
are your mother's child, not because you are gentle and sweet,
and blush the same way she does. But autism you
are the way you are, not because you have a soul,
but because of your symptoms and diagnosis. Every heartfelt, annoying,
interesting piece of you categorized the fond way your family
(05:53):
describe you medicalized. The pieces of us once written into
wedding vows read out and eulogies remembered with the smile,
now live on doctor's notes and mental health assessments and
better help applications. We are not people anymore. We have
been products for a long time, and these are our labels.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I think this is hyperbolic. You can be someone with
quirks and very specific characteristics, and you can also have
an autism diagnosis like both of those things can be true.
And if you do go to a wedding or a funeral,
you'll notice that it is not a list of labels.
The way that we remember people or characterize people are
(06:31):
by their contradictions. That is how it happens. But as
with a lot of writing, I think that this writer
is reflecting to a phenomenon that's occurring on the Internet.
And there is such a difference between therapy speak and
therapy culture and sitting down with a psychologist. They're actually
two completely different things. And if you sit down with
a psychologist, they actually aren't trying to label you, and
(06:53):
they're not trying to position every relationship you have as
codependent or an attachment disorder or blah blah blah. They're
trying to see your personality as this complex and always
evolving thing. And what psychologists also will focus on and
have you be more open to, is that personality is
(07:15):
ever changing. Like that's maybe something that I have felt
a little bit shift, is that the way that we're
starting to talk about personality is as though it is
set in stone and it doesn't evolve, but it's always changing.
Of course it is. And that's why I realized reading
this article that she put words around why I love
fiction so much, and the reason I love reading fiction
(07:36):
is because there is no character that has ADHD full stop.
That's the end of their story. It is the contradictions
and the mess and the complications of that person and
then how their traits intersect with plot and have them grow.
By the end of a book, someone's always a different person, Like,
that's what we're watching, and it's that evolution that I'm
(07:56):
invested in.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
How much do you think this is about categorizing other
people as a way to understand them, and how much
she is categorizing ourselves, Like, for example, this idea of narcissist.
That's a word. People don't throw it around about themselves,
but they certainly throw it around about other people. So
you're not just selfish or self absorbed or going through
(08:18):
a time of main character energy, You're a narcissist. And
in the same way people don't feel anxious, they have anxiety.
Now I have a couple of these diagnoses, and I've
found it actually really helpful for understanding my own behavior
and responses to things, like a lens through which I
(08:38):
can see them, but I also can see how very
quickly it becomes boring and a default to just flatten
everything through that lens.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, And there was actually a really interesting data point
in that article, which was according to a twenty twenty
four survey, seventy two percent of gen Z girls said
that mental health challenges are an important part of my identity.
And that worried me because I thought, well, it's the
only way to have their pain validated. That's what it says,
is like I'm pain or I'm feeling distress, and when
(09:12):
I have a label, I remember feeling people will take.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Me more stage.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, people will actually listen to me. And we've always
minimized the pain of young girls, so I can understand
why that's happening. But that's not a recipe for happiness,
I suppose.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
But I also feel like when it comes to diagnosis,
and I was talking to a friend who works in
that social policy space, but I think also when it
comes to understanding why a person is as they are,
For example, if I had a friend who was diagnosed
with depression, Yeah, I think it also allows you, as
(09:47):
a friend or as a family member to kind of
form some sort of empathy around that rather than just
thinking that they are just the way they are, or
like putting a label on it, saying that they are
a narcissist. I was reading a blog post by a
psychotherapist named Musumi Saha, and she said being nervous before
a big event is labeled as anxiety. A disagreement with
(10:08):
someone might be called toxic. Using labels too loosely can
make us see normal emotions as problems. It can make
us feel like we're broken when really we're just human.
And it just made me realize that I have done
this so much where I use therapy speak in my
everyday language to kind of make excuses for things, Like
there's been times I've told friends like, hey, I can't
(10:29):
come out to dinner. I need my depression nap. And
I'm like, I just needed a nap, and I just
happen to have depression. Like, and I think putting that
word depression with everything I say about myself gives me
the excuse to use it in a serious matter without
being serious. And I also use it as a blocker
to stop people from questioning it, Like my friends have
every right to call me out and be like, just
(10:51):
come to dinner.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, they're not going to nap. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And what what I've found through, you know, having the
absolute privilege of at points in my life sitting down
across from a psychologist is is how often they say
to me, not that's normal, but they help explain why
I might need that nap whatever. What they don't do
is tell me I'm abnormal, put a label on it,
and kind of go, that's the way you were built.
(11:17):
Whereas the thing of like the classic TikTok, which is
five things I thought were part of my personality, but
are actually just my ADHD. I don't think that that's
often that helpful. I think probably it's kind of both.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It is both. I think that's exactly right. Having had
that exact experience. My first reaction when I was diagnosed
and had this label was I mean a million but
there was some relief, going, oh, there's a reason for
all of these things. But then there's also a sense
of oh, I thought I had this unique, quirky personality,
(11:52):
but I've just got all these textbook list of symptoms
of this really common neurological condition, on neurodivergent condition.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
So there was actually a US government study done in
twenty twenty one where researchers wanted to figure out what
happens to people when they're given a diagnosis, not just medically,
but also emotionally, socially, and practically, and they said there
were those positive emotions like validation, as in like someone
finally believes me, but it also changed people's self identity
(12:22):
where they started seeing themselves as their condition.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah. I definitely found that that was something I had
to become aware of and then avoid. It's almost like
falling in love and you just want to say that
person's name all the time, and you feel like you've
been giving this roadmap to understanding yourself. But then does
start to sound boring when you just keep going, Oh,
that's my adhd oh, that's medhd, oh, that's my anxiety.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I think it's an attempt to project order onto chaos
as well, right, like, and have a roadmap, and have
a roadmap and something as complex as personality and human relationships,
like when I met my half brother and he was
my mum had him when she was very young, and
he was then adopted and he went and moved overseas
and I met him when he was in his mid thirties,
(13:08):
and having that expl experience exploded my view of what
made personality. That's why there were brilliant moments in this essay. Wait,
I mean it's not as simple as we are a
product of our childhood. It's not as simple as we're
a product of our genes.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
We are large behavior.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
And yes, it's this unexplained and the beauty is in
the unexplained.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
So do you mean that there were aspects of him
that were really similar to you, even though you were
not raised together.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yes, and aspects that weren't exactly so sitting there, he
had these certain gestures that he made that my mum said, oh,
that was my father. It was like sitting there with
my father, right. And then there were experiences he had
in his twenties, thoughts or crisis he had that were
nearly identical to things that I had gone through. And
so as much as we like to think that we
(13:55):
are the product of how we were parented, or we
are exactly the product of you know, the low dopamine
or serotonin in oup, like, it is this incredibly chaotic,
beautiful mix. And that's why getting to know peace is
so interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It's the getting to know people because I think this
also comes up a lot in dating because I feel
like when we have all these terms like gas lighting, toxic,
it's so easy to chuck that label onto someone because
it's much easier to say that instead of saying, oh,
they just didn't like me. They were doing like all
of these things. And it's even like attachment styles, right,
(14:32):
like oh he was just avoidant and I'm anxious, so
that's why we don't work out. I think it's like
filtering down into the thing. Where as you said, me
like it's a bit of both, and I think what
you said about how you got that sense of relief,
but also it's so hard to not kind of skew
your identity to being that one thing where every single
thing you do you're like, oh, was that because my ADHD.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That's limiting, don't you. Yeah. So I think when it
can become a bit of a prison or a cage
is when you just think, oh, well, I'll never be
able to be on time because I have ADHD, or
I'll always interrupt because I have ADHD, and it can
become cop out's the wrong word, bet limitation.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
The dating example is such a good one because it
is such a time, like the creation of a dating profile,
where we are forced to use labels. It's like, how
do I present myself as a product to be consumed
and liked? And you've kind of got to go, well,
what are my hobbies? What do I do for a living?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Like?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
What are my personality traits? And there was this quote
in the essay that said that happiness is about almost
actually being able to forget yourself. And in a culture
where we're constantly producing.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
And being perceived express.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Identity, then we're not able to forget ourselves. We're always
in the process of kind of labeling.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It reminded me a little bit about you know how,
in the last probably decade maybe less, there've been a
whole lot of new names for different types of sexuality,
so pan sexual, polysexual, and be sexual, and they all
mean slightly different things. Instead of just being able to say, oh,
(16:17):
I'm attracted to this person, so it's aboud identity. Like
we're all retreating further and further and wanting to categorize
ourselves more and more, and I need to want to
understand and also belong to a community and which has
been so important for it and not be ordinary. You know,
I think that being able to say I'm this or
I'm that, or I have it. But at a certain point,
(16:38):
when are you just I guess that's the whole point
of this story. When are you just you? When are
you just the sum total of your experiences, your conditions,
your mental health, your opinions, your upbringing, you know, your emotions.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, something that can't be like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
We sort of needing to put all these post it
notes on everything and say, oh, it's my this and
it's my that.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
After reading the sub sac were you able to identify
qualities of your personality that you feel like are just
your personality?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Oh that's such a good question.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I went really deep on the deaf personality after that
because I was like, hang on, what even is personality?
And of course it's the five traits that they talk about,
and some are more stable than others. But we were
talking about this on Parenting Out Loud the other week
and I was saying, we're talking about deeply feeling kids.
This is the term going around, and I was saying,
I worry about labels like that because, particularly in childhood,
(17:30):
personality is changing and you might look at your kid
and go, you're shy and you're timid, and your risk averse.
I have totally done this, and then the next day
they surprise you. And that's how humans are. Yeah, Like,
that's the beauty of a relationship with anyone is that
they will change. And there are some traits like extra version,
introversion apparently stays pretty stable. Others a life event will
(17:53):
absolutely transform you. I feel as though I have a
different personality, probably since having a baby, for a variety
of reasons. And I know people have to profound grief
or you know, experiencing a particular trauma or whatever, the
personality changes.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Because I am the type of person who like constantly
uses therapy language in my every day. There's like a
celebrity who I find myself quoting every single week. It's
Jami mccirk. Yeah, you know, she played Jessa and Girls.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I think I know this quo.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Oh it's so good. So she does like I think
once a year she does his big ask Me any
Things on Instagram where she puts a question box up
and the audience asked her question.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
And she's quite candid.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
She's so so candid. And one of the questions he
got years ago someone wrote in and said any advice
for unconfident young girls? And she just replied, I think
you guys might be thinking about yourselves too much. And
I say that to myself all the time.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Out louders up. Next, does a memoir need to be
vigorously fact checked? And whose job is that we discuss
the Salt Path controversy. We have been desperate to talk
about the Salt Path controversy, and we're gonna wait until
Hollywood's back because we would like to put it on
the record in this moment that one miss Hollywayn Wright
(19:12):
recommended the Salt Path.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Member what Holly recommended?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I listened, Mia Friedman, I listened, and I wrote in
my journal Hollywayin Wright just recommended the Salt Path so
that I could bring it up today and say, haha,
history will not be kind to hollid On No, because yes,
this is very controversial. We got too impatient, though, and
so today we want to start from the beginning. And
I like that Holly has no right of reply.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
She's going to reply the match she gets back.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I just know it. So.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
The soult Path is a memoir that was published in
twenty eighteen and it was written by Rayner Wynn and
it has since sold more than two million copies. That
is a lot of copies. In twenty twenty four, was
turned into a film. The main characters were Gillian Anderson
and Jason Isaacs.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
It was white Lotus.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah. It was marketed as unflinchingly true. It tells a
story of how Rayner, who was fifty five at the time,
and her husband moth Win, lost their home after investing
a substantial sum of money in a company owned by
a friend that ultimately failed. It was kind of the
gray nomad thing right, But it was also playing into
(20:17):
something that impacts a lot of people in their fifties
sixty seventies, particularly women of homelessness. Where you go, I've
worked my whole life and I've ended up at this
point where i have nothing but the things of my
back pap.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I've never heard of this book, so I've come to
this like a lot of people reading about the controversy
without any knowledge of the source text. It sounds like
the Salt Path. The book was a little bit like
Cheryl Strade's Wild Wild, Yes, someone going on is why
I didn't hear of it? Someone going on a long
walk in nature? Yeap, not by kind of book exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
And on top of this, the reason why this book
was so impactful is that Moth had been diagnosed with
a rare neuro degenerative disease and they decide to then
embark on this kind of a name is moth, Well,
I think it comes from because his name is Tim,
So Tim Moth. I've never heard moth. Yeah, as a
little so.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Instead of the nickname being Tim, it's moth like moth, shallow.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Man, endearing pet name. They both decided they were going
to walk along the Southwest Coast Path in southwest England.
And look, that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Book's so horrendous. People love.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
It's like a self help kind of situation.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I mean, I love to eat pray loves.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So it's like eat pray love except a couple yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, on a long walk and this illness and
the idea is as well that you know, he's been
given certain things to expect from this illness, and the
walking really helped and that was part of the story.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
My understanding is that the illness, the diagnosis is usually
pretty terminal and not something that you can walk off.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
No, so you often have a life expectancy of about
six to eight years. Okay, now, this is all well
and good, except according to an article in The Observer
which was published earlier this month, they were never homeless.
They did lose one home, but that was a result
of embezzling the equivalent of about eighty five thousand Australian dollars.
There are also questions about Moth's illness. And that's not
(22:13):
even his real name, and Rayner is not her real name.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Wait, so he chose the name Moth.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Well, They're real names are Sally and Tim. Sally and
Tim Walker.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
That doesn't have the same ren it does it.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I liked the Rainer and the moth that I can
kind of forgive in a memoir if you want to
have a kind of pen name situation. Yeah, fine, it's
probably the other stuff that isn't so forgivable. Look Sally
stole that substantial sum of money while working as a
bookkeeper in the mid two thousands, but they settled the
dispute privately. The details get really weedy here, but long
(22:45):
story short, debt collectors took their home and Sally Walker
has written a very long blog post where she's confirmed this.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
So interestingly, one reason for changing your name is that
people can't then google you and find things out about you.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Also, the reason they were ever really homeless is because
they did have a property technically in France that they
still owned throughout all of this. The Observer then cast
outs on Walker's illness. They interviewed multiple medical experts who
said that, you know, the average life expectancy is six
to eight years, and I think it's now eighteen years later,
Tim Walker is still alive. What has Raina Win said?
(23:22):
So she's written this big blog post and she says
that the house in France was uninhabitable. It was just
like basically stones like you couldn't live there and they
couldn't sell it. Actually looks like she might be telling
the truth about that, right. She has also shared documents
that seem to confirm her husband's diagnosis, although some say
you're a little bit vague on the details, and a
(23:43):
lot of people with this specific illness. This is the
issue with writing about health is that it became sort
of prescriptive to them, and they had this hope that
maybe if I just did a long walk, then I
too could improve a lot of mon Yes, so there's
a lot to unpack here. Mea what kind of responsibility
do you think the publisher has here to fact check?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want to jump past the publisher and talk about
the first right, because a lot of people who read
this book, who loved this book, have said, I'm really
really upset. We have a similar thing happened many years
ago with an author called James Frey who wrote a
memoir called A Million Little Pieces. He was not an
Oprah's Book Club. It then turned out that his memoir
(24:27):
most of it all, I think all of it wasn't true.
That was a huge controversy. We've had these before. Helen
de Medenko a long time ago. I think she said
she was Yugoslavian, but she was just an Australian who
was not Yugoslavian, and that was not her name. Her
name is Helen Darvil. So my question about when you
(24:47):
read something that you think is memoir, because I read
a million little pieces I thought it was great. When
I found out that a lot of it wasn't true,
did I care or no? Because we have something called fiction,
and I mean, I understand that it's storytelling. Is it
not just as good?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Oh, it's totally different. It's totally it's an element of
absolute manipulation. And I think that what's an important point
to make is that nonfiction is easier to sell. It's
easy to market. The reason it's easy to market I
was told this. I've written a nonfiction book and a
fiction book. Nonfiction people want to interview because story. How
many fiction writers, unless they're Leanne Moriarty, do you actually hear?
(25:29):
It's really hard to get your fiction book in front
of people's eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Because it's like, tell me about this made up story.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
It's like yeah, yeah, So if you say this is
nonfiction this is a true story, the investment of a reader,
and I think that a book is very different to
any other type of media because of how long you
spend with those people, the details that you absorb, the hope,
the connections that you make, and then to find out
that isn't true feels like such an enormous betrayal and
(25:56):
I'm so surprised. I was listening to a podcast about
this where they were saying that the way the contract
works is that the publisher has Rayner signed something, where
Rayner says this is all true. Basically, the onness is
on the author, and Rayner got a very small book
advance for this. I think it was maybe like ten
(26:17):
pounds twenty thousand pounds. Since she's made millions and millions
of dollars off royalties, but this keeps happening, it seems
because legally, I don't think that the onus is on
the publisher. I think it's on the writer.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, I've written a couple of memoirs. I can't remember
if I signed anything. I mean, they're always worried about
anything legal, so anything where you talk about other people
or make claims about other people.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
But it's not like they would have sat down with
your mum and dad and gone, hey, this story that
may have told about being four, was that true?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
No, And they don't ask for medical records. No, no, no,
because that would be intrusive. Although in the case of
something like Bell Gibson, there was a huge amount of
backlash and criticism of the publisher, which I think was
valid because if you know, in my memoir, I wrote
about having a miscarriage, I wrote about anxiety, I wrote
about various things, but I didn't write about curing myself
(27:13):
of a particular.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I think that's where the difference comes in because this book,
although it's a memoir, like labeled as a memoir, it's
more like a self help kind of book. Like that
book would have had exactly what you said, so many
people readers in like a chokehold of going this is
the book that is going to help me through like
my next stage. And I remember something so different, but
I know the exact sense of betrayal because my favorite
(27:36):
movie for the longest, longest time was The blind Side. Yeah,
and that was based on a true story. Sandra Bullock
wan Academy Awards for it. It was a massive movie.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
What was it about?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Again, it was about this family, this really successful, rich
family in Memphis who adopted a black kid and took
them into his family and he became this massive football star.
And the blindside was about how he became huge. He
went into college and they funded all of that and
he was just making a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
And beautiful success story, beautiful but.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
True and how did it come out?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So then after that we found out that the child
that the movie was about, Michael Orr, was suing the
Touwy family that was Sandra Bullock was suing that family
saying that he actually wasn't adopted, he was under a
conservatorship and the family was taking all the money that
he was making and taking all the money that the
(28:33):
movie was made from Hollywood. And it was one of
those situations that was so so horrible. And then he
said a lot of the stuff that happened in the
movie was not true, Like he could actually read and
write and he was well educated. The huge racial stereotypes
are happening, and it just was one of those things
whereas as someone who was so invested in that film,
(28:54):
I was just digging and digging and digging to see
if this could be unproven because there was just something
that really watched when I was really young, and I
just wanted it to be true so badly.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
I read a book when I was a teenager called
Forbidden Love, and it was Alakuri a Norma Kouri, and
it was about her growing up in Jordan and her
best friend Dahlia, who fell in love with like a
Christian soldier and ultimately died by an honor killing that
her father was responsible for.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
She wrote, she told the story of her best friend, yes,
he was killed, yes.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And then she moved to the US and it was
this phenomenon, this book, right, And then it was actually
Australian journalists Malcolm Knox and I think Caroline Overington was
really involved in the reporting. Where they went there was
something like seventy two factual inaccuracies, really basic stuff like
the border of Jordan was wrong, the banknotes were wrong,
like all of these kind of and they were like,
(29:49):
this is really really strange. And then people within Jordan
started saying, this is not a big country. We would
have heard. This is like a horrific thing to happen.
We would have heard. And so they dig and they
dig and they dig. Turns out this woman never existed,
like Norma Kuri hadn't even been in Jordan at that time.
There's a brilliant document called Forbidden Lies that Caroline Overington
(30:12):
is in. It had to be pulled from shelves, like
the book was totally fictional. And the reason why that
was so bad was because it came out in two
thousand and three, that is two years after September eleventh.
The anti Muslim sentiment, the Islamophobia that was so prevalent
at the time. People were so invested in having this
(30:34):
vision of kind of the oppressed Muslim woman. And to
write this, to have me so emotionally invested in that
book and go, this is such a tragedy, look at
how these cultures work. It just was a totally fictional story.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I know it's hard to unscramble how you feel about something.
But had that been categorized as fiction, you're saying it
wouldn't have sold as well. No, but would you have
enjoyed reading it as much? Or there's something and new
for the blind side? Is there something about knowing that
it's true that enhances your enjoyment of a sect?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
It totally changed a conversation when you're told it's true
one hundred percent, And even with that book, it's also
because those code be true.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Stories like honor killings do happen. So I feel like
making up a fake story about that and then making
so much money and moving to the US when it
actually is happening in the world is just another step
way too fun.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
It's exploiting. It's totally exploiting a culture that you actually
have no right to write about. And what's interesting too
is a James Fray example. And I believe in this
example there's a big question mark about what happens to
the money. Yes, because James Frey, I'm pretty sure he's
still a pretty rich dude, and a lot of the readers,
because this is in the US, readers suit him like
(31:49):
individual ratings for life. I want to be compensated.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
I think their publishers often allow people to refunds, get refunds,
but did you get a refund?
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Well, what's funny is you might have a few refunds.
Do you know how many people have bought The Salt
Path in the last few weeks? Like the book, scan
numbers would have just skyrocket and.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Watched the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, So in terms of the money.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There was an interview with Jillian Anderson. This is before
all this came out and people are now going back
and looking. When she was promoting the movie, someone said, oh,
did you meet Rayner? How did you find her? And
Jillian Anderson said, I found her guarded Jerry, Yeah, which
was kind of cryptic.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
You know who I want to hear from Jason Isaacs
because from White Loaders, we all know he's a messy bitch. Yeahs.
Friendships are made, friendships are lost.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
The dad on White Lotus with his prosthetic penis co moth.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Tell us your opinion before we go into eCos. I
wanted to share a low from the week that just passed.
We talk a bit about sharing from a scar, not
a wound, but I think sometimes there's a bit of
utility in examining the wound while it's fresh. And while
we were recording Wednesday Show last week, I was going
(33:06):
through something privately, and that night I tried to put
words around it. So here's what I wrote. I'm sitting
in the hospital where I gave birth to my daughter
almost exactly two years ago, but this time I'm not
in a bed with a bassinette tucked in close beside it.
I'm in emergency, handing over yarine samples with specks of blood,
knowing in some part of me that I've just had
(33:27):
or I'm having a miscarriage. It's so silly. I tested
so ridiculously early. At first, I didn't even think I
saw a line that. Then I looked closer. You know
you're desperate when you take a photo and start adjusting
the contrast. There was the faintest line, a whisper of
a promise your life could be about to radically change, or,
as the case may be, not at all. The next
(33:49):
day the line was a bit darker than a bit
darker visible to the naked eye. At least I told
Luca and my sister. I was so excited. I worked
out the jew date, the gap between my babies. I
was asked about a work commitment slaid in for early
next year, and meekly tried to pry my way out
of it. They'd know soon enough. I thought about it
every second of every day. It's like the knowledge existed
(34:12):
in my pulse, and I suppose it literally did. I'd
been afraid of how much I wanted this. It feels
dangerous to want anything this much. Months have passed negative tests.
I didn't know I could feel so much disdain for
a pad, but then a positive test. No alcohol, no
Quadrill pregnancy vitamins. The sore boobs were a giveaway. I
(34:35):
remembered them from last time, but they're not sore anymore.
I was at the doctor when it happened. Luna had
a cold, and I darted to the bathroom as we
finished up. I'd been spotting, but when I wiped there
was blood, too much blood, and there were cramps like
an ache in my lower stomach and back.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
It hurt.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
But where did the knowing come from? That night, as
I laid in bed having taken panadole, which felt like
a betrayal of some kind, like I was muting an alarm,
I felt lonely. They were gone, disappeared. I'd liked so
much knowing that they were there, and I wasn't grieving
a baby. I can't imagine losing a baby further along,
(35:14):
when they're a tiny thing your body has got to know,
as familiar as your own shadow, a companion through everything.
I was grieving hope, the future that i'd let unfold,
the excitement, and for a moment other people's joy is
all I see. She is pregnant, she has just had
her third She's walking down the street with two little ones,
(35:34):
so close in age, with no idea how lucky she is.
I'm being assaulted by pregnant bellies and ultrasound pictures and
family photos. And they're beautiful, but they're also brutal to
the people I empathized with before this. I'm sorry that
I didn't understand. I didn't understand the impatience, the frustration,
the grief, the anger, the isolation that it can feel
(35:56):
like you lost something you only ever really saw. I
experienced early what so many women go through much later,
and it is awful to experience a pregnancy you wanted
more than anything leave your body. However more however, early
leaves you with an emptiness, a silence, something that is
over before it ever properly began. And I didn't want
(36:17):
this story to be a footnote to a pregnancy announcement,
hopefully someday down the track, a story of victory over
struggle where it didn't matter so much because we got
our healthy baby in the end. Because right now that's
not where I am, or where so many people are.
I'm sitting in the silence, the emptiness, and I hate
it here. So I want to say it in case
(36:37):
you've ever been here, or you're here now, or you
find yourself here one day stunned by how much it hurts.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Sweetheart, I'm so sorry that that happened to you, and
I'm so glad that you wrote that, because that's beautiful.
You've put words around something that so many women have
gone through, and so many women will go through, and
it's really hard thing to explain, even to partner, even
to your closest friends. It's very unique. It's a weird
(37:05):
type of grief.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
I've spoken to so many women working in this office,
like who I've spoken about it, have been at work,
been in a meeting, gone to the bathroom, and this
kind of private tragedy has occurred, and I thought I
knew it was bad. I don't think I ever understood
the complicated and like embodied emotion of it. I was,
(37:29):
of course, you just frantically google and one of the
symptoms that you're losing a pregnancy is grief, like you
actually do. It's like your body, like your cells feel
like a changing. Oh, your hormones are changing and yeah, yeah,
and the palpable grief. I've never been so sure of anything.
And I think when you go with symptoms like obviously
(37:49):
bleeding is quite normal in early pregnancy, and so people
are reassuring or trying to be reassuring.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But it was you knew.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I just absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Knew, no matter how early it is. And like I
so many women get conscious of like throat clearing going
and it was early, and I just I can't imagine
what it's like. There's no there's no leaderboard of who
gets to be the most sad. It's a type of
grief that transcends how many weeks.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
And I completely understand why people and I so appreciate
people before me having talked about it. And even as
it was happening, I kind of had a prism through
which to understand what was happening because I'd heard other
women talk about it, and I understand the vulnerability of
being in the moment. Even saying like I'm trying really
hard at this thing and it's not working.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Is like do you feel like a failure? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Quite shameful, like that I.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Had one job, my body had one job. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
But then there's this awareness of like the privilege of
having fallen pregnant accidentally and having a healthy pregnancy and
a healthy baby.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
But also knowing that when you talked about your boobs
and like you knew. Yeah, Like I think that would
just feel like your betrayal.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah, it's like an embodied Like it's such an embodied experience.
I suppose to be pregnant and you feel I've heard
women talk about body.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, embodied. It's so visceral, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
Yeah, And that's why it feels like a loss only
you can see because no one else can feel it,
and your partner can be. So it's a grief for
the partner too, because you're so excited but they didn't
know them.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
And it's also there's no proof that this person existed, Like, now,
how do I honor this person? There's no I haven't
even told people that I was pregnant, so how can I.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
I kept taking pregnancy tests and there's the saddest image.
I said, I said to Luca, this is the saddest
image I've ever seen. But it's a pregnancy test. It
still so's positive, but on the urine stick there's blood
because I knew that it was and I just had
to keep checking and checking and checking, and then I
had to keep that because I was like, it's the
only evidence that this thing actually happened, because I feel
(39:59):
a bit insane right now, Like I feel as though, oh, okay,
I just had this health thing happened, and then I
go home and we get on with things.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And no one even knows this profound Like I saw
you last week and yeah, I didn't know, like this
profound thing was happening inside your body and women are
extraordinary carry with it and get on with it, because
what are the rituals as well? Like what are the
rituals for miscarriage? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:23):
What are you meant to do? Other than go? And
I'm sure that they, you know, must get asked this
question all the time. But it's like, well, when can
I try again? Can I? Yeah? When's it going to happen?
Like they I've never felt impatience like this ever, Like
it's yeah, it's such a bizarre mix of emotions. And
I know that the stats that it's so so common,
(40:46):
and there is something comforting in that knowing that it's
not that you're defective. It's like it does happen a lot,
but yeah, something only only women can understand and out Louders.
If this brings things up for you, then there are
resources in the show notes. We're thinking of you because
we know how many of you will have been impacted by.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
This sort of thing. So many outlouders we'll want to
reach out to you by DM are in the out
Louders group or comments or whatever, and so many people
will be moved and grateful and have big feelings. But
you'll read what you can. You but you know you
just need time to process it all. So in advance,
thanks out louders for on Jesse's behalf or your love
(41:26):
that we know that you'll have. After the break, We've
got some recommendations for you, including the show Everyone's Talking About,
a grouping World War two era novel, and a comedy
gem starring Idris Elba and John Cena. Oh you about that?
Do you want daily out loud access? Why wouldn't you?
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
(41:49):
and me. A subscribers follow the link in the show
notes to get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
This is my best recommendation. It is Friday, so the
show's not over. We want to help set your weekend
up with some recommendations. And if you've got to spare
ten hours, you don't have to watch all ten hours
at once. I did so too much. We spoke about
it on Monday's show. Well, we spoke about Lina Dunham,
(42:28):
who is the writer, creator and director of this show.
It's on Netflix, and Netflix don't space things out, they
do let you binge. It's about ten hours worth. Yeah,
I would say a little London.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
So I'm god actually about because I one hundred percent
going to watch.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
It's her story. We're talking about memoir, but it's fictionalized memoir,
so similar to parts of your book about depression, it
can be a way for people to tell an aspect
of their story without having to be faithful to every
single detail, or like Strife with My story, where it
actually gives you a lot more creative license. But anyway,
(43:07):
so Lena Dunham, after the success of Girls and everything
that happened in America, as we spoke about on Monday
and go Back, We've had so many comments of people
just loving that episode. It was such a great week.
I'm glad you loved it because we love doing it.
It was like a big, chunky, deep dive into Lena
and the Girls phenomenon. But she ended up leaving America
and going to the UK to direct. She had a
(43:30):
couple of opportunities over there, and she decided that she
just needed to get away. She had a bad break
up after a long term relationship, and pretty early on
after she arrived in the UK, she met this musician
kind of unlikely match in a way, but they fell
in love and she and he got married. It's not
really a spoiler because this is well known. They got
married I think a year after meeting each other, maybe
(43:52):
seven months, And this just tells the story of you know,
this Lena type character played by Megan Stalter. You might
remember her from Hacks, and she's sort of like our
unlikely protagonist in that she doesn't look the way a
Hollywood protagonist looks into a twenty five or has really
(44:12):
ever looked outside of Lena Dunham production. And that's not
even the story that just you know is incidental, yeah, incidental, Jess.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Something has shifted with you, Josh Hi, how are you girl?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Are you good? You're unhappy living me. It's the worst
thing that everyone's ever done. Change your life. Go to London, seriously,
you love London.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
You saw a Spice World nine times in the theater.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I could do it. I could go and find my
English dream. You know, a state ground starting gardens, good luck,
We don't love. I'm talking to a girlfriend about it
who said it certainly wouldn't pass the Is it called the.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Bechdel test, I'd say, bechetel.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
H d e L. It's a test by a cartoonist
called Allison Bechell Look Bechdel. It looks at movies and
TV shows and basically says, if the women in every
sort of scene are talking about men more their relationships,
that just sort of signifies that it's not really about
female characters, and this would not pass that because it's
(45:26):
very much a rom com. It's about the love story.
And it also goes back and through a series of flashbacks,
looks at these two sort of flawed characters who interrogate
their past and how did they become sort of traumatized
in different ways. It's bloody funny. It's written in just
the most glorious way by Lena. It's got that great
dialogue that's clever, but not like punishingly clever, you know,
(45:50):
where it's just like, well, no one actually talks like that.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
It's really funny.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
What did you love about it?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I love Okay. Firstly, I loved Will Sharp, who plays
the romantic interest. He was in White Loadus season two. Yes,
so good looking, he's really really good.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
He was married to Aubrey Plaza, Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And White Loats. What I loved about The Human is
that it's very summer to Girls. It took me a while,
if you're a big Girls fan, to not see this
character as Hannah from Girls.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
I kept thinking they were meant to be the same
person and then not. It's like two completely different characters.
But it's like Lena Dunham's humor, which is very fast paced,
very funny, that you have to constantly play catch up
where you're like, oh my god, that was so funny,
And then I found myself rewinding things to like rehear them.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
I wanted to go back and watch the whole season again,
which I never do. Some of the most glorious cameos
Naomi Watts. Yes, oh my god, she's In a few episodes,
she plays just the most phenomenal character. Jennifer Saunders makes
an appearance and Scott the hot priest from Fleabag.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Jessica alba Ura.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, it's it's amazing. Oh yeah, it made me like him. Rada,
I buried the lead. This actually made me like em.
Rada plays a knitting influencer model that her ex boyfriend
then gets together with, and she was really good.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
She was to watch this. That's gonna be my weekend one.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I can't recommend it enough. The other show I watched,
which I know I'm not allowed to recommend, well, it's
against the rules because it's already been recommended. But I've
just discovered Drive to Survive.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Stop is ahead of us on this. She's the person
I can talk to.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Well. The good news about that is that if you
go back to the beginning like I did, I've just
got hours and hours an hour.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
You're talking to people who don't even exist.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I know. I'm on out of season three. This is
the behind the sense of Formula one. It's become a
massive hit with women. Very clever marketing move by f one. Jesse,
what are you recommending?
Speaker 3 (47:40):
I'm going to recommend a book. It is called The
Nightingale by Kristen Hannah. It is not brand new, but
I have been for the last few months struggling to
get through anything same. I am picking up books that
everyone says are amazing, like hits that everyone's talking about,
and I'm like, I can't finish this.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I've got a question, when do you make the call
to keep pushing through or not? Are you a pusher througher?
Speaker 3 (48:05):
I'm a I'll read a chapter and go not for
me one chapter, Yeah, but the last few I've read,
I've gotten three quarters away through and I'm not actually
invested in how.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
This finished it.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
I'm gonna push it through it even if I hate it.
I have to finish it.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Chapter is sure Jesse, Wow, I can tell by the
writing and also like how much stock I've got the writer? Yeah,
but this a few friends said to me. This is
just super super readable, but also top of the New
York Times bestseller list. This author has written a few
really really good books.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
I've heard about it. What's it about? Because I also
need a book that's going to push me out of
my rut, so.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
This will one hundred percent do that. It is set
in World War two France, and it follows two sisters
and their resistance to the Nazis. That sounds like really heavy,
but it's not like I'm just really invested in the
day to day lives of these two women. And it's
not like hectic historical fiction where it feels dense like it.
(48:57):
It's very very readable.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
How does it compare to The Safe Keep, because that
was the last historical fiction that you I couldn't get
through it. You couldn't get through every week raving about.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
The Safety Oh I loved the Safe couldn't get through it.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
So how does it compare to that?
Speaker 3 (49:09):
I would say similar, And I would also put that
in the same realm as The Bronze Horseman, which is.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
All I loved the Bronze Horsemen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
So it's about female war heroes broadly and the stories
that we don't hear, and also how everyone's resistance looks different.
So these two sisters resist the Nazis in very specific
ways that might at point seem small, but are also
grounded in like historical accuracy, Like what one of the
sisters did is something that was done during the war
(49:36):
and made me think about how you know the marches
are for the men, the Anzac Day March, but broadly
it's been mostly for the men who come back. But
what happened in the four or five years when they
were gone? What did these women do and what did
they experience? And I didn't know that some of the
Nazis in this French town were billeted to homes. And
what that means is that, my god, I didn't know that. Yeah,
(49:57):
so you would be living in a house and a
Nazi would knock on the door and go, hey, I'm
gonna need that room and just live in your house.
You're a vulnerable woman, often with children like alone. And
also I always find really interesting the details about rations
and food and the cold and just the horrendous conditions
that people lived through. I was deeply, deeply moved by it.
(50:19):
So it's called The Nightingale. I'm going to go back
and read read her others, but it's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Okay, I have a movie I want to recommend that
I feel like I'll have to really convince you guys
to watch. But if Holly was here, should be all around.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
Okay, all right, she's probably already saying.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
That it's called Heads of State, and it's on Prime
Video and it stars Idris Elba, John Cena, yeah, and
Preaka Chopra. But oh, I love all of them, all
of them. So John Cena plays a Hollywood A list
turned US President of the United States.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Oh sounds for me. I love him so much.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
He's funny, he's really funny. And Idris Elba plays like
a really tough, quiet military guy who's now the Prime
Minister of the UK.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
It's the Prime Minister, it's the president.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Debute duet do it? Yeah, it's like doctor Dre and
your Eminem and we're taking that stage for the first
time again.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
I'm Eminem. What is it you're walking around thinking you
better than nobody else? You are the commander in chief?
Speaker 2 (51:25):
You know some DJ in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
All right, I get it. You don't like my movies.
I've never seen your movies. But the universe keeps telling
me I look cool with a gun in my head.
That's how I go.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
They both also start in did you have watch Suicide Squad? No,
it's not like a massive, massive movie, but it's like
Suicide Squad is like the Nuggo Robbie in that yes, yeah, yeah,
So they would start in that together. Everyone really liked
them together, so now they're doing this movie together. And
it's actually a buddy comedy, so it's like comedy action pace,
but it's about these two massive political figures who are
(52:01):
getting hunted by these assassins, and the assassins are trying
to destroy all these peace treaties that around the world
and they're just chasing them around the world. And Pianka
Chopa plays a CIA agent who's the only one who
actually knows what's going on. It is really really funny.
Your boomer dad or your twein son will love it.
There's a big family exactly.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Catch my dad watching at one pm on a Saturday.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yeah, oh my god, me and your dad.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
That's on. My criteria for that is no sex scenes.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
There's no sex scenes.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Tick done.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I think there might be one kissing scene. That's all right,
that's fine, Okay. I'm also going to break the rules
and do one more recommendation. And so you know how,
I host The Spill, our daily entertainment podcast. Our little
Spill family is growing. We have a new offering called
Morning Tea. So you are now going to be getting
two episodes of the Spill every day. So Morning Tea
(52:49):
gets released at eight am. It's a five minute episode.
It's hosted by Ash London, who's absolutely brilliant, and she
gives you your entertainment, pop culture, celebrity news headlines of
the day.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
I love this wiki.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
It's kind of like the quickie bit first entertainment.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
But for fluffy things. So I love this because it's
interesting that research continues to show that women are increasingly
experiencing news a version that they are wanting to turn
away from the news. The quickie is a fantastic option
for those people who want to get across the news
in a non anxious, sensationalist way. But sometimes you just
(53:26):
don't want that, or you want that and then you
want you want to stuff. So this is always used
to be my favorite part of the news or when
in the old days of breakfast television, the bits that
Richard Wilkins used to do, or whoever it was, and
this is just all the celebrity news. So it's just
like a catch up in the morning and then in
the afternoon you and you're still a Rodney Spell episode. Yes,
(53:48):
do a bit more of a deep dive on particular stories,
but this just like covers you off with the headlines.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
It's all wonderful And this is all in the spill Feed,
All in the spell Feed, host by Ashlandon, who's so brilliant.
She knows so much about celebrity and pop culture.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I love her. And the other bit of pod news
we had for you is that I know a lot
about ladders. Have really loved the six weeks of Parenting
out Loud that we've done, Jesse you hosting with Emilia
lest Andy Stacy Hicks. We sort of did that as
a bit of an experiment and everyone has loved it. Yeah,
(54:23):
I love it. It's one of my favorite shows because
I'm not on it so I can just listen as
a listener. We weren't expecting to carry this show on,
so it's taking a little bit of parental leave while
we think about what's going to happen next. But if
you are interested in being the first to know when
Parenting out Loud and if it comes back, we will
(54:44):
put a link in the show notes so that you
can follow along in that feed and maybe go and
have a listen to the six episodes that we've already done. Congratulations.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
That was such It was so so much fun and
it was a lot of parenting podcasts, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:59):
I think that our resistance as well was like, we
don't want to get on and just talk about our
kids and.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Chiefs first, sleeping, life, stage, lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (55:08):
Yeah, it's more the conversation that you have, all the
things that you read or gravitate to. We wanted it
to be thinkier, treat parents like adults instead of like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:18):
It's not actually about kids, it's about sort of heads out. Yeah,
so it's kind of zeitguys, similar to out Loud, but
through a parenting lens. It's just so great, and lots
of people who aren't parents have said that they really
really love it. Anyway, we'll put a link in the
show notes if you want to follow that feed and
catch up with it.
Speaker 3 (55:34):
That's all we have time for today. A big thank
you to all of you the out louders for listening
to today's show. We will be back in your ears
on Monday, and we've got a little present for you
because Hollywayne right been on her euro trip, which has
been posting a lot about, which has been pissing me
off because it looks very warm. Lots of app roles
shall be back joining us behind the mic, so meet
(55:56):
us there on Monday.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Divine,
our audio producer Leah Porges, video producer Josh Green, and
our junior content producers co Co and Tessa. We will
be back in your ears on Monday.
Speaker 3 (56:08):
And if you want something else to listen to, yesterday's
subscriber episode, we tackled a bunch of very juicy dilemmas,
from how to deal with a colleague's questionable cooking to
a tricky parenting moral dilemma. A link will be in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
Shout out to any Mom and Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
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