December 3, 2025 • 50 mins
Can you change a child's birthday because it's a bit... inconvenient for you? Content creator Indy Clinton wants us to believe she's doing just that with her "Christmas baby" and Sagittarians everywhere have thoughts.
Plus, Sienna Miller is pregnant and in a negligee on the British Fashion Awards this week. At 43, Holly wants to know, is this the quintessential representation of the new era of agelessness?
Also, Pilates is dead, strength training is on its way out and a mobility obsession is on its way in - but, Amelia asks, is scolding people with the "correct" exercise trends really the way to make women move?
And an essay about motherhood ambivalence has Jessie pufferfishing. So, if you're not sure if you want kids, should you do it?
REFERENCES, friends:
If You're On The Fence About Having Kids, Don't Do It - By Zoya Patel.
Dr Stacey Sims being interviewed by Holly on MID.
🚢 Subscribe to be in the running to WIN THE ULTIMATE SUMMER HOLIDAY: Royal Caribbean Cruise Giveaway! Click here for more information
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: The Good Guest's Guide To Wedding Etiquette
- Listen: The Woman Who 'Caused' Family Estrangement
- Listen: All The Things We Didn’t Need To Know About The Sex Scandal Of The Year
- Listen: So, Are You Rude With Money?
- Listen: The Women Quietly Quitting Their Husbands & Your High School Ghost
- Listen: The 5 Days You Should Schedule Every Month
- Listen: The Most Telling Detail In That Meghan Sussex Profile
- Listen: ‘I Was An Ugly Child’ & The 5-Second Underthinking Rule
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the very latest episode of Parenting Out Loud, the parenting podcast for people who don't listen to... parenting podcasts.
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast, Amelia.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We've had some feedback from our listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Go on.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
They say that they thank you very funny, and they
think that you have a future as a stand up comedian.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Don't stop it. Tell me more so.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The question is that you can do a tour in
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Do you know what's so funny is that this reminded
me that I did, in fact try stand up once
really watched this memory. I did stand up about ten
years ago when I was living in New York. A
friend invited me on her show that she used to
do every month, and she'd have a rotating cast of commedy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Was it like an open mic?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I a bit open mic? Live yeahotely live yeap.
And I found the email I sent out to my
friends about it, and I said, I'm going to be
talking about dating and restaurants because they were my two
special special subjects at the time, New York comedy. And
you know what's funny, Not a single person can remember
(01:12):
anything about this show, including me. I've asked friends now,
maybe they're being nice, Like I did some research today
and I texted them and I said, what was it?
Like because they're all on the email chain saying they
were coming. Everyone claims not to remember, including friends with
really good memories. And the friend who invited me onto
this open mic night, she ghosted me. After the event.
(01:34):
I discovered in my Gmail archives that she just disappears
from my Gmail archives. She never emailed me again. So
I think what this means is I probably shouldn't be
a stand.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
What it means is you should take our wonderful out
loud as comments, greenshot it and send it just context
this friend, yes, the next friend, with no context, but
with the meaning of somebody.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thinks, somebody thinks I'm funny.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to MoMA mea out loud. That's what
women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the third of December.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Amelia Last, and.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
And here's what's made our agenda for today, the photo
of a millennial icon that to me redefines what being
forty something means.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Now, Pilates is out, strength training is in. I want
to talk about what fitness trends say about us and
what we really want.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And if you're on the fence, about having kids just
don't have them?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Is that fair advice? And if so, why.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Did I have such a strong emotional reaction to it?
And let's hear Amelia and Holly tie themselves in knots
trying not to say the word hormones.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
The first.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
The influencer Indy Clinton has released a TikTok video that
is blowing people's minds. Let's have a listen to it.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
Hey, I was actually going to ask you guys for
your opinion on something, but I've already made up my mind,
so I may as well just tell you because I
don't need your opinion. I just want to let you
know what I'm doing as a mother. Make me think,
why don't more people do this? Because I actually can't
genuinely think of any reasons why this would be a
bad thing. My third child, Solina, that one, the third born,
have decided to change her birthday to the twelfth of December.
(03:26):
She was actually just too close to Christmas for my liking,
and I just I just thought, going forward, she's never
going to know we have officially changed it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yes, So what you can gather from that video is
that Indy Clinton has a daughter, her third daughter, who
I gather is a bit of a handful who had
a birthday close to Christmas and now Indy. Now, whether
or not this is true or not, take it with
a big grain of salt. But she suggests in this
video that she has changed her daughter's birthday so that
it is less close to Christmas. Now, I know you
(03:54):
are both December babies, and you're always banging on about
how hard it is to be a December baby. I
want to give you the floor. Do you love this idea? Holly, Yeah,
I do. I think she should do it. You don't, Okay,
But why is it so bad.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Because you can't actually change your birthday? I looked into
it because I thought, what.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
A good idea? Can I change one birthday? I actually can't.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
But one of the great things about having little kids
they don't know on their birthdays.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Yeah, no, they have no idea.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So for at least ten years, I reckon, you have
got the leeway to just tell them their birthday is
whatever it is, and then at some point you're going
to have to come clean. The reason why it's bad
to have birthday close to Christmas. Mind's on the twentieth,
which is five days before when I was a kid,
I hated it for just very superficial, shallow reasons. People
would often give you one present and say that's for
(04:44):
Birthday and Christmas. This is an unforgivable act, particularly the
little kids. Like little kids live for presents, you have
to wait all year round for it to be anything exciting.
Whereas my friends and my son who has a June birthday,
and my partner Brent has a June birthday very evenly
spaced celebrations and gifts.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Right, No, June is clearly the best month to have birthday,
and I'll be hearing no arguments on that. Jesse, do
you hate having a December birthday? Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I am December twenty one. My twin sisters December twenty one,
and then she had her daughter on December twenty.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
The universe was conspiring to teach you that same lesson.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I've been pitching you since I could speak.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I've been bitching, and then the universe went, actually, we're
gonna throw another one on your birthday. And now I'm
spending my birthday at Wiggles. So but that's a whole
other issue. But I think this is really smart the comments. Look,
Indy Clinton is a content genius to come up with
this idea, because I think everyone with kids trying to
organize a birthday party or something around this time of
(05:45):
year is thinking this is what they should do.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But also people are getting so angry.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
They're getting the comment they were so funny.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
They were like, your child's gonna get really confused because
they're gonna go on schoolies and they're gonna think they
can drink and they can't. And I was like, I
don't think that's going to happen, Like I think they're
going to come across their real birthday before schoollies.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It's for fine.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
As an adult, I don't have a problem anymore with
my birthday.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
I quite like it.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
It makes that time of the year all the good
things happen, you know. But the tricky part about it
is is it's hard to get other people to celebrate
you because they're all so busy. So Jesse, I can't
remember if it was you or Claire or both of
you who wrote a piece once from Mamma Maya about
how having a December birthday is actually quite personality defining.
And I think Indy Clinton needs to read it because
(06:32):
even if she pretends that her daughter was not born
near Christmas. You can't escape those personality vies.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Wait. Sorry, I'm sorry I didn't read this article, but
that's because it sounds silly. Explain to me how it's
personality defining.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
People born close to Christmas are superior because they have
a sense that they are not at the center of
the universe.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I'm like, oh, my true birthday, and.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We know that in terms of priority, we were never
made a fuss over. We probably have self esteem issues, Holly,
I think I could tread to that not about us,
and if not about about us, I haven't got to
Westfield yet.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And I wonder if we changed our birthdays to make
to give ourselves the mere time we couldn't handle it.
We would not we wouldn't organize a birthday well, like
it would just be too weird. I'm like, it's so
incompatible with my personality. It must always be a struggle.
And like people saying they can't come and me stumping
(07:37):
my feet up and down is what birthday is all about.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Indy Clint's kidding herself because she she says to her
in her words, that this child is a little bit
of a handful. Yes, of course, she is because she
has a December birthday.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Moving in two weeks is not going to change that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And if you're going to move it, you've got.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
To move it to the best.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I have to draw the pod cast collective attention to
a photograph of one Sienna Miller. Now, do we think
the outlouders are all across who Sienna Miller is?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That My millennial reference point is Alfhi.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Is that and Jude Law. She dated Jude Law and
she just was the Coollers. She went to Glastonbury and
looked cooler than Kate Moss.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Every time I go to the hairdresser, I say, I
want Sienna Miller's hair from Alfie, like I want the
Curt Bend. That's twig, Yes exactly, I will my last
words to head.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
She's just always been the coolest woman she has She's
she it girl was a term much used about her
in her youth. She dated lots of handsome, famous men.
She had an excellent resurgence with the show The Anatomy
of a Scandal a few years ago, which was like
a political British She's She's really, she's great.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Not relevant to this story, but Jude of course cheated
on her with the name.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
With the nanny, and then there would be something to
do with a man that anyway, whatever, anyway in the picture,
this is obviously an audio medium unless you're watching us
on YouTube, but we I'm sure you can find it
and we'll put it on our socials. In this photo right,
Sienna Miller is at the Fashion Awards in London on
Monday night, so just a few days ago. She is
(09:24):
visibly bloomingly pregnant. She has very long blonde hair in
mermaid waves. She is wearing a completely see through moomoo
which has a bra top with cutaways.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Holly wrong use of the word murmur. I think it's negligent. Okay,
it's like a nightties It's.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Like a negligey nighty moo moo thing and white nickers
which are obviously very visible, and feathery heels.
Speaker 6 (09:51):
She looks incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
It's like a Greek goddess.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And all I can think is Sienna Miller is forty three,
and this is this what forty's look like now, pregnant
and three. I want to be clear before we get
into this, this is not a conversation about old moms.
I had my second kid at forty there's no issues
(10:17):
with any of that, of course, And it's also not
about what age appropriate clothes should be about, because who
cares about that. For me, it's about how this image
tells us that we have very successfully extended use.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
There is just no way that even.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
A decade ago, a woman in her early forties would
look like this, dressed like this, be presenting like this
if she was pregnant, it would be being described as
some kind of miracle and everyone would be falling over
about it, whereas this didn't really raise that many eyebrows
at all. It makes me think, you know, forties used
(10:56):
to be old. And when I say this, I mean
in the culture. I don't mean that we think that necessarily,
and certainly, I'm ten years older than Sienna Miller. I
don't feel old. But in the culture, thirties used to
be like there was this show called thirty something that
was huge in the early nineties that was all about
how boring it was to be in your thirties is
so old and boring. Forties was really old, fifties was ancient,
(11:17):
and beyond that was unthinkable. And one of the things
I think when I look at this image is we
have really extended youth.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Am I crazy the rebrand particularly of one's forties? And
I think that gen X is in the process of
doing this with their fifties.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
As they moved through it. We absolutely are.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
But the successful rebrand of the decade of the forties
is one of the most phenomenal things to witness.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Like, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, it used to be the epitome of middle age,
a term which we don't use anymore. We use the
term midlife, which doesn't sound better.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
Technically it is middle aged.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I have a anecdote which perfectly illustrates the rebrand. In
the nineties, when I was growing up, I was given
a board game I'm a jum Birthday, get a lot
of gifts, and it was called Life Begins at forty.
And the premise of this board game on the cover
was a convertible car with two quote unquote old looking
(12:20):
people streaming off into the sunset. Cash just flowing out
of the car. Kids gone, mortgage paid off. The whole
game was about getting rid of all of these things
that were tying you down, the kids and the mortgage
and the job, because you're now setting off into the
sunset into walls were essentially a dotage. Yeah, And that
concept of forty as being the full crum between young
(12:42):
and old, I think that's just completely gone now.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
And what do we think obviously, I mean you can
put cosmetic surgery. I think longevity science is another thing,
probably the trajectory of one's career as well as the
other thing. So it used to be that you kind
of hit the heights of your career in your thirties,
and your forties and fifties you slowed down and quite
(13:07):
you know, mostly for men.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It depends on what your career is because the boss,
the CEO, the prime minister, the president traditionally was always
a man in his fifties, right, a white man in
his fifties was power decade. But for women that has
always that has been always different. You know, you were
in the culture once you had it once upon a time,
(13:29):
once you were married, it was kind of like not
very not very cool anymore. Then certainly as a mother
you were shuffled off to like the uninteresting corner. And
then being over thirty even was once like a bit
old now and.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Now it's I'm gonna retrain to be a psychotherapist at
forty five, Like it's this whole it's this era of
reinvention a lot of because this is I suppose a
story about celebrity where you look at your Sienna Miller's
and you could go the Kardashian's, the Kardashian era too.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Like Rachel Weiss just announced she was pregnant in her
mid forties.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Kim Kardashian is forty five and and looks better than
she did at twenty five. Right, I don't think this
is just a celebrity story. I'm seeing this in my
real world with what I.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Want to see. Is that true?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
The women I know in their forties are thriving. They
are saying they've never felt better, They look incredible, they
have a focus on health. They like it's nothing like
it's just nothing like middle age. And I remember when
my mom turned forty, going mom's old, like I.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Remember having this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It was the forty thing was just this enormous moment
that's certainly been shifted back.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
It was always like a punchline in sitcoms when someone
turned forty, they were expected to just be despondent for
the whole year, because there was this idea of like,
youth is done now for so one foot in the grave.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Miranda Hobbes famously said on Sex and the City, forty
three is her scary age, Like that was what she said,
And statistically that's still likely the midpoint of your life.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yeah, so, yes, so it is the midpoint of your life.
But we don't call women in their forties middle age,
mostly because they would punch us in the face if
we did. Don't call me middle age. I will punch
you in the face.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Because of your protein you're creating and yes, training, yes.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
But the thing that's interesting, as you've touched on, is
whether or not this is real, like whether the Sienna
Miller mirage in her you know, gorgeous, blooming forty three
In all ways, does trickle down because I think, you know, obviously,
advancement in technology, which is everything from skin care to
(15:43):
cosmetic surgery, nutrition to wellness trends to exercise to you know,
and to a certain echelon of people having access to
a lot of stuff that many of us probably didn't understand,
But does trickle down Like once upon a time, you know,
injectables were things that only very fancy, rich people, famous
(16:05):
people did, and now you can get it at theist
or your hairdressers, you know, advances in weight loss technology. Again,
things that really fancy people did and really rich people
did with their fancy doctors. Now so mainstream we see
it everywhere. We look, same with even things like exercise,
Like the legend goes that Marilyn Monroe was jogging in
(16:25):
the nineteen fifties and everyone thought she was in set,
like why would you do that?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Whereas and we have this obsession now with longevity, which
they think is going to well, it is the big
boom space. And that means everything from that really famous
guy who's trying.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Not to die Brian Johnson.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Too, extending fertility through various different kinds of treatments. So
we are obsessed with this extension of youth for very
obvious reasons. There is nothing more frightening than death, right so,
and aging is a signal of it. So we are
pushing at that and pushing at that. I don't know
that I think it's a good thing or a bad
(17:02):
thing or anything, but it's just so interesting.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
Is it a good thing a bad thing?
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I worry about it a little bit, And that question
of whether or not we're really just setting up unrealistic
expectations for women in their forties, so there's certainly a
good side to it. Just this week we saw Jody
Hayden marry the Prime Minister. She is a woman in
her mid forties. That was barely remarked on that she
was getting married at that age. In fact, no one
(17:29):
even talked about it. Really, it was seen as completely unremarkable,
Whereas in a previous generation, the idea of having that
full traditional wedding in your mid forties probably wouldn't have
happened like that. There probably would have been a sense
of shame or stigma around it. So I think it's
great that we're removing that idea of shame and stigma
around having to do milestones at certain ages. What I
(17:50):
worry about is that any woman who chooses not to
opt into that competitive aging, because that's what this is essentially,
it's like how well can I age? How can I
beat everyone else at aging, which is after all something
all of us go through. Women who opt out of
it are judged and even mocked merciless for doing so.
I'm thinking, for instance, of Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales,
(18:16):
and remember the sort of sense of disbelief on the
internet when she was seen looking slightly less than perfect
recently because she had some very obvious kind of hair
touch ups and she had some wrinkles which she had
not taken out through cosmetic procedures. So I just worry
that we're just potentially, yes, we're taking some stigma away,
(18:39):
but are we then judging women who don't want to
opt into that whole thing?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
But I don't think it's all about what you look
like like. The thing that why that's Cienamella thing is
so so striking to me is obviously it's about what
she looks like in that terms of the whole presentation
of it. But throwing the baby belly, it's almost like
saying age isn't where, We're beyond it, we're ageless.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Now they're know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Sphere that rejects that entirely. And I think that there
is a real rub happening between the.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
Culture and reality.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I think it's medicine, right, you go to the doctor.
So you're sixty, I know a lot like my parents' generation.
They are like my nan would have had a walking
stick at sixty. My parents are on holiday, they are exercising,
they are feeling wonderful. They go to the doctor and
they go, you're a senior. Yeah, they use the word senior,
and it's like this confronting who's a senior?
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Where I find it really really confronting. When I go
to the doctor and I'm complaining about something and they say, well,
you're in your fifties, I kind of like want to
say and excuse me, excuse me.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
I don't feel so anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
We can see that image of Sienna Miller. But then
on the flip side you have Claire Danes who just
recently spoke really candidly about falling pregnant at forty four
and feeling an enormous amount of shame that she thought
people were looking at her going why is she falling
pregnant at that age? It's dangerous And I am as
(20:11):
a foremation, my birthday is coming up. Please send me gifts.
I will be thirty five, which will make me officially
a geriatric pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
That is a term.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
The other one they use is advanced maternal age, which,
as it doesn't feel better.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I feel that they need to get to get rid
of that, not talk about as the average age of
mother's changes in lots of countries like Australia because I
also had I had geriatric pregnancies. They really need to
rethink the pr of that, or do they.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, that's what I mean, because doctors aren't about PR.
Doctors are about stats, they're about studies, they are about risk.
They are going what we know is that your I
had an appointment the other day they talked to me
about bone density and I said, I think you've misunderstood.
I am thirty four years old, and they like, so
you can do whatever you want culturally and rebrand something.
(21:01):
But then you go to the doctor and they go, oh,
I can see your age. We're going to do all
of these tests, and it's like, why age is just
an illusion, that's not.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
My partner, who is a physician, had a patient once
who came in. She would come in every month for
a checkup, and that's because she was one hundred and
one and every month she'd come in and they do
the check up and everything was fine. And then one
time she came in, he said, how are you feeling today?
And she said, oh, I'm good, I'm just a little
bit tired. And he said, yeah, do you think that
(21:33):
could have something to do with the fact that you're
one hundred and one years old, but no one can exit.
No one actually thinks that they're old on the inside.
They just think, why am I tired? I don't think
it's because I've reached a century.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
I also think that, like lots of things, this is
just going to become a real status symbol.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
It already has like aging, whether and when I say that,
I don't just mean your physical face. I mean aging
is beginning to look like a choice if you've got
the access and the resources to be able to fight it.
You know, whether you are the richest man in the
world who are convinced they want to live forever and
longevity is going to be apparently worth trillions of dollars
(22:12):
in a few years, or whether down to us who
are just like, oh, is that rinkle going to stop
me getting a job?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like?
Speaker 6 (22:18):
It's going to become a very stratified thing.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
In a moment. Is Pilates a giant scam? Pilarates might
be over bad news for anyone who loves their reformer classes.
But Jesse sent me a newsletter the other day. It's
called Body Type. It's written by MICHAELA. Jamison, and in
(22:47):
this newsletter, Michayla kind of takes down pilates as the
exercise trend at the moment.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
It's lucky for me because I've been meaning to get
back to pilates for thirteen years and now I can
just go, oh.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Well, it's out of fashion.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I never should have done it.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
After a though, Jamison writes that back in twenty twenty two,
the woman who did Polardi that was shorthand for being
a hot woman. But now that whole idea of like
the hot exercise has become strength training, which, by the way,
Jamison thinks is great. She thinks this is a good trend.
It's a much more effective way for women to meet
their fitness goals, That's what she says. But I don't
(23:24):
so much want to get into which form of exercise
is most efficient, because we're not the experts on that.
What I want to talk about is fitness trends, because
they definitely do exist. This piece reminded me of that,
and back in twenty twelve, running was the fitness trend.
Remember there was this scene from thirtie Rock where Alec
Baldwin's character is talking to Elizabeth Banks's character. They're dating
(23:44):
at the time, and this interaction lives rent free in
my head. You went running, I thought you'd left.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Who else is out there this early?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Almost exclusively women that look like me?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
If the perverse community gets wind of morning jogging, oh
god help us.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Have you seen this?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So morning jogging was it back then? And now we
had pilates for a few years and now it's strength training.
I think it's his lot about where we're at as
a culture, about which one of these fitness trends is
most popular. Jamison says that Polarates was kind of pernicious,
That's what she says. She says that as Thinness was
coming back in full force after many years of body positivity,
(24:21):
Polartes kind of popularized what she calls a cut paste body,
like really long, lean muscles, and she says that whole
aesthetic was ultimately quite damaging to women as well as
being really hard to attain. Jesse, you've noticed this shift
in the culture away from polates and why do you
think that is? What do you think is coming next?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
So I am the ultimate sheep when it comes to
this stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I go.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
When I went to the gym in my early twenties,
it was cardio and core. You'd do a few sit
ups and you'd get on some sort of cardio machine
and be like, this is what women do it.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Like the elliptical, Like you take your sort of gossip
mag and your giant iced coffee and just sort of
hang out there.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
For you that's what you were meant to do.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
For a while.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Actually, I got into like interval like where you get
your heart rate up and yeah, because I went, yeah,
it's about getting a heart rate up and down as
though like I think I'm a pete like because I
read a thing, And then I got really into pilates
and then moved on to strength training because of aforementioned
bone density strength training. There's some really interesting analysis about
(25:29):
why that is so. Firstly, it is because of the
rise of the midlife woman, who is all of a sudden,
the most shared podcast episodes of the last twelve months
are all about midlife nutrition and exercise. It's a really
specific We.
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Had got to Stacy Simms. She is doctor.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Stacy Simms is one of those women. She was the
most shared on Mel Robbins this year. But she was
on mid and I interviewed her for Mid and that
episode went nuts. But some people were really annoyed with it,
and some people loved it to be why were they annoyed, Well,
I found it very reassuring because one of doctor Stacy
Simms things is that she thinks we've all been steered
(26:12):
a bit wrong about exercise because she says, you know,
she points out all the time, we're not small men,
and nearly all the research that we live and die
by was done on men. And she basically said, well,
she's a big proponent of weight training massive and of
interval training actually, but some people find any kind of
advice in that. And I definitely have said this on
(26:34):
the podcast before. I find when we were looking at
Jessica Bial's workout to remember that, I can find it very.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Like.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
It just makes you feel it just seems unattainable. It
just seems complicated, unattainable.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It just feels like alienating and alienating and like, oh
my god, I get you know, half an hour of
exercise in a day, which is the reality for most
women that I know, and now it's so complex.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
So some people pushed back on that, but you're right, Jesse,
like that advice, the weight training advice has become so mainstream.
I was at a park on Friday night and a
woman asked me what I was lifting.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
That's always a good gift.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
The first time anyone has ever asked me that.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
I thought only dudes asked each other that.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
And I didn't know what the answer was because I
sometimes lift ways in the gym.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
I don't know what they are.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I asked you. You said you were doing leg presses,
and I said how much.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
I was like, I have not no idea.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I don't know, but I was like, Oh, the fact
that this is now mainstream party conversation for women of
a certain era that says a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I was reading about it.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It was El magazine had a thing that basically said
big shoulders are in and it was talking about the
Jessica bill back moment from this year, but also about
how the regressive politics in the US at the moment
and what feels like kind of stripping women of certain rights.
There is this like feminine rage and energy and what
(28:02):
muscles represent, like women wanting to appear and feel strong
in the selves and what that means.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
But my theory that's true.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
By the way, I've heard that from a number of
newsletters that I subscribe to. Right people want to feel
empowered at a point where they feel like they don't
have any control over the political landscape.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And cardio doesn't necessarily make you feel like it can
make you feel lighter, I suppose, But this is a
real polarity.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
It doesn't make you feel that. I love it, but
it doesn't give it.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
It's classic that it's you know, all of these things,
as per the first conversation we're having today, are about
trends in women's bodies, like do they want to feel
tiny and fragile? Do they want to feel strong? But
that just is it's just all such nonsense, right, It's
all such nonsense. Why are our bodies subject to trends
when we all know the best exercise you can do
(28:53):
is one you'll do yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And it's also a response I think to any sort
of weight loss injections that's going to change how we exercise,
which is that like you lose muscle, and so the
recommendation is you go and muscle yep. But this is
where I reckon it's going. You know, when you see
something for the first time and then suddenly you see
the word everywhere and it's like I am so seeing it.
(29:15):
I reckon twenty twenty six. The word in fitness that
we're going to be hearing is mobility, right, because mobility
is going to be the a status marker of youth.
And by mobility, what I mean is how you what,
how you stand, how you get up, how you move
your body.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
That's what I obsessed with with Aniston and her whatever
that she's doing on that check at clawsh I think.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
It's going to be less about how you look and
more about how you move. So everywhere I'm seeing a
lot of fitness even influencers, now we're doing like here's
a hip mobility, here's a blah mobility fifteen twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And call mobility. I feel like I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, physios are doing it like they're going, this is.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
What listening to this are like, We've always.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Because I've always been doing it because they're like, you
can go and lift whatever you want, but if you
don't have mobility in your back or your hips, then
you can't.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Actually, Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
You need all the things. This just reminds me the
have a video I saw recently, and I don't mean
to mock a man, but a little bit. It was
a Leonardo DiCaprio the god who is Leonardo DiCaprio getting
out of a car, And just before he got out
of a car, his girlfriend got out of the car.
She's a twenty seven year old Italian model and her
name is Victoria c Ceretti. Anyway, the car door opens,
(30:39):
it's graandy paparazzi footage. This young like foal leaps from
the car and rushes past the paparazzi.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Into the car.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Any hands to get up, and then DiCaprio, who's only
I think he's probably just a bit older than me,
is he.
Speaker 6 (30:53):
He gets out of the car and it's not like
he's hobbling like an old dude.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
But you know how he always has his baseball down,
even at Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
It's just the way he walked from the car.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
To the restaurant that was the betrayal.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
It's just every really little tiny bit, just like the
man in his fifty It is true. We were just
talking about how longevity is the buzzword, and this news
is that people are like, I don't want to walk
like an old person. I don't want to move like
an old person. I want to My feed is just
wall to wall people going. If you do a hundred
hops in the morning, then you will always move like
(31:26):
a blah.
Speaker 6 (31:27):
But it's so true.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And don't you reckon too that.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
You know how even social media photos and the selfie
camera and all of that changed how we saw ourselves
in our bodies. Everything is video.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Oh, such a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Everything is video.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So I think that we've got this sense of like
we care how we move, even in parties classes I've done,
I've noticed I'll do a thing where they go they
get you to see it on a on a thing
and then it's like, try and stand up with one leg.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
This will mean that you can stand up without hands.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
At eighty Like that's really important, which is really important,
and it's important for literally like breaking a hip can
be a death sentence at eighty.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
So like that kind of stuff I just reckon.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And mobility is going to be the thing we focus
more and more on, which isn't a bad thing, but
it is about how we move rather than how we look.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I think that's brilliant. I have another prediction. Yes, I
read an article recently that I cannot stop thinking about,
which was in Self magazine, and it suggested that we
should all be going for fart walks.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
Yes, telling me this for a long time.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Fart walks. So basically, after your evening meal, you just
go out and you take yourself on a fart walk.
It's thirty minutes or whatever, really just so you can
do a few farts and digest.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Good for digestion, yeap.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And it's actually great for then going to sleep afterwards
because you've just sort of settled your stomach.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And that's what they say when you have like constipation issues.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's all about movie, yep. And it can be a
nice thing to do with a partner or with a child.
I have tried to take my children on fart walks
with mixed success. But I just think that I hear
you on the mobile, I do. But I think twenty
twenty six is the year of the fart war.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
And fiber friends.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
You know how all year I've been protein protein shoving
cottage cheese and everything from sandwiches to cocktails to.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Coffee, just like more cottage cheese.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And then now it's just like fiber, fiber, fiber, and
I'm like, oh my god, I'm worried about the cottage cheese, Holly.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I feel like there can be a lot of heartwalks,
body picks with all that fiber after the break the
article about parenting that made me puff a fish and
I need Amelia and Holly to shock me down. Every
Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of mummya out
Loud just for Mummia subscribers. Follow the link in the
(33:50):
show notes to get your daily dose of out loud
and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.
If you're on the fence about kids, don't do it.
That was the headline on an article published in the
Sydney Morning Herald yesterday written by Zoya Paatel, and I
(34:13):
had a visceral reaction to it. I hadn't read it yet.
I'd just seen the headline with the feature image, which
had a woman who like head in hands pouring coffee
onto the table while a kid in the background was
like eh. I was like, yeah, all right, I think
I get the gist. I read it and appreciated her argument,
(34:34):
although I have a few rebuttals. She writes that she
was on the fence about whether or not to have kids,
and she ultimately decided to have a child who is
now her two year old son. And this is a
quote while he has changed my life in incredibly positive ways.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
He has also altered my life.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
In challenging ways too, And in the context of cultural
wars between the child free and parents, I think parents
should be more honest about this.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
She says.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Of course, she loves him intensely. She talks about the
gratitude of watching him grow up and learn about the world.
But she I can imagine a life without him. She
rejects that cliche.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
She says, I can.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Imagine a life without him. It would have been a
perfectly nice, fulfilling one.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Now it is very.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Possible that it's the hormones currently coursing throughout my body.
But my question is can you can you imagine a
world without your kids? And would you advise women on
the fence not to do it?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Can you explain why you got angry at this, because
this seems very obvious.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I had to analyze it, and I realized that it's
less about the article and more about the discourse I
feel it's playing in, which is that I see so
much negativity and I am so sensitive to it, so
much negativity about parenting, and it is so much worse
(35:57):
when you have twins on the way, like I have
not heard a single good thing. People don't come up
to you and say, like, people get excited about the pregnancy,
but it's like they want to tell you how hard
it is. And that's because it is, yes, yes, and
people say it when they go through the shops with twins.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Everyone kind of goes, how do you do it?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And I'm in like mums of multiples groups on Facebook
and it's all terrifying, which that's probably their only support network.
Like that's fair enough, but this is a terrible analogy.
But you know how if you're on a holiday, a
girl's trip, right, Let's say you're another country and there's
someone on your trip who just bitches the whole time
about the hotel and about the country and about the
(36:42):
food and about the bla and you stop being able
to enjoy it because you have this in your ear.
I just worry that the Internet does that to us.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Sometimes, Jesse.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
I have enormous sympathy for you about that, because I
think that what you're experiencing there is, you know, a
very inflated version of what all parents experience the first
time they're pregnant, which is when we discussed this at
the time, when you're with that. Everyone likes to tell
your birth horror story. Everyone likes to tell you.
Speaker 6 (37:10):
Oh, I hope you're getting your sleep, and.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Da da da da da, all that life is over yet.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
But this article was not aimed at you. It was
aimed at women who are on the fence about parenting.
If it's aimed at anyquity, right, And the advice in it,
which is, if you don't know, understand how hard it
is before you make that choice, make an informed choice,
is very good advice.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
It's the opposite.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
The thing that's interesting to me culturally is it's the
opposite of the very accepted you're never ready, just do it,
which is basically the parenting advice we all get all
the time, and every young woman gets any time she
expresses that maybe she's not desperate to have a baby
because of this reason or that reason. Maybe it's financial,
maybe it's relationship, maybe it's whatever. And generally the culture
(37:54):
is pushing on young women all the time to have babies,
have them now, don't wait, your fertility is running out.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
You're never ready have babies. Have babies.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
This, to me, rather than being part of a overwhelming
negative discourse, is like a tiny pushback on that.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I think you're right, and she had a really good
point about the hubris of thinking that you can recommend
a person have a child either way.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
I don't think you should, like I don't.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Think it's anyone's business.
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Like a foundation, I don't think you recommending.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
And I think being evangelical about everyone should have them
is the most ridiculous thing in the world. And the
privilege involved in being able to enjoy parenting is like
a whole other thing that I think is really really true.
But I wonder if the result of the declining birth
(38:46):
rate is that half my friends have kids, half of
them don't. And do I think the people who don't
should have them? No.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Most of my friends have taken a really long time
to make a decision, and I'm not seeing a lot
of parental regret because they've come to that decision and
they're really really happy.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
With falling divorce statistics that we've talked about. People are
getting married later, they're living together first, they're considering it
more so, they're making a better choice.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes, but the result of that is that now we
are exposed to the other path more so my parents.
Ninety eight percent of my parents' friends had kids. There
was no one going on a holiday, There was no
one going out to dinner, there was no one having
cocktails on a Friday night. They weren't exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
But now, because this choice is.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Being made and we're almost going in these two cabs,
you can see it. Yeah, you go, oh, there is
a life where I didn't and I can see it
and taste it and touch it in a way that
maybe previous generations couldn't. Amelily did you relate to this well?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I thought it was very brave because I think it's
really hard for women to say something like what the
author says, which is that she can imagine a life
without her child, which would be a perfectly nice, fulfilling one,
because the cliche is I can't imagine my life with
that little kid in it. And I just love that
(40:14):
she felt brave enough to put this, to put this
down on paper, because I do think it will be
very helpful for women who caught in this choice, and
I think a lot of women struggle with this choice.
And my microgeneration, although we're both millennials, I feel that
I'm older than you, and I think that we didn't
(40:36):
have as much openness around this conversation, as even you
did a few years later on. It was very much
seen as a default for elder millennials that you would
have children eventually. So I love that she's opening up
a debate that I felt that my microgeneration just didn't have.
Do you feel like that.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Was I think it's funny how we all see our
own generations as being, you know, trailblazing in some way
or another, because I gen X in a way started
the not settling down in the early years, you know.
I often say this, Like my really core group of
friends from sort of that I met at Union, used
to live with and everything in London, we are exactly
(41:16):
fifty to fifty on whether or not we became parents.
There are six of us, three did, three didn't. That's
it And I think it's really and I have no
strong opinions about whether or not anybody should or shouldn't.
What I think is actually really good is somebody saying
and I get your point, Jesse. I think that in
some ways there was a long time where women weren't
(41:37):
allowed to say anything negative about parenting, and then we,
like the Internet, in a way, open the floodgates for
women to be able to express a lot of things
about parenting that were previously unsaid, and it does feel
at times like a massive winge fest. And I think
there has been a correction in that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
If you spent twenty four hours on the internet, you
would not be convinced have children.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
But then again, it is really hard having children, Like
it's and I know you have to immediately follow that
up with but it's wonderful and I love them, and
I wouldn't have made a different choice, and all those
things are true. But the moments when it's very hard,
and I have found it very hard, particularly a particular stages,
with particular challenges. I have often thought, imagine trying to
(42:20):
do this with not the advantages that I have, without
whatever support I did have, and if I hadn't really
wanted to do it, do you know what I mean? Like,
I think it is one of the things in life
that you really should want to do. To do it,
I think there are plenty of things that you can
feel ambivalent about and go, sure, I want to go
(42:41):
to Thailand, I don't care, you know, But having kids,
I actually think is a very serious choice. We could
all look around the world and go those parents probably
shouldn't have had kids. That person probably shouldn't have had kid.
That person's unhappy, that person's fucking them up. And again,
I don't want to sound harsh, there's no such thing
as perfect parenting. I'm certainly not that, but I don't
(43:04):
think you should just do it if you don't want
to know.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And it is, it is a serious responsibility. It reminds
me of another article I read this week about someone
who tried a self driving car. She was in Melbourne,
and I guess she'd tried like a sort of Tesla,
a new type of Tesla that's self driving, and she
was scared to use it at first, and then she
discovered how lovely it was for the car to drive
itself around the city streets. And she wrote in this
(43:29):
article that she realized, having experienced that that driving is
a huge responsibility that we just casually take on every day.
Just because something is common or widespread, or we all
do it or most of us do it, doesn't mean
that it's not a serious commitment and responsibility. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I guess my other concern with it, that actually isn't
about this article, but more about the broader conversation, is
that sometimes there's this tendency to talk about kids like
their these accessories that you choose to have to enrich
your life, and they either enriched your life enough or
(44:08):
they didn't enrich your life enough, and we write about
them as though they will never read the words that
we write about them. There are there are sometimes things
I read on the Internet and I'm very in this
parenting space where I go, if your kid reads out
one day, they'll be horrified, like what if there is
(44:28):
this conversation or this thought in the back of all
these parents' heads that's like, oh, there's a world in
which I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
You like or But again, I understand why it's sensitive
about that. And there are some There is an article
that I read in Grazia magazine years and years ago
that sticks in my head because it was a woman
and she named herself talking about her favorite child, and
she had two kids, and one of them was a
bloody delight and the other one was difficult and had
(44:56):
tantrums every time they went to the supermarket and d
Now that has stuck in my mind because I thought
that is unforgivable. That is absolutely unforgivable and narcissistic and
all those things.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
But there's a.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Degree here, and I think there are worse things in
the world for a kid to hear than I had
a life before you, you know what I mean, and
it was fine. There are many worse things for a
kid to know than that. I actually think it's really healthy,
like for your kids to know absolutely love you to bits,
but you know what, things were fine before you came along?
Speaker 6 (45:30):
Like, what's wrong with that?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (45:31):
Is that a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I remember? I'm thinking you'll be fine after you leave.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Two, when you're off living your life and I'm just
someone you have to call once a week.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
I'm gonna be all right. Like, is that a terrible
thing for a child to know?
Speaker 4 (45:42):
As long as they are loved, as long as they
know how like they are your top priority day to day.
Is it really so awful for your kids to know
that you weren't their only choice, that they weren't your
only choice.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
No, I guess just always looking at them through the
prism of like, how are you enriching my life?
Speaker 4 (45:58):
I agree with you about that, And that's one of
the things that the discourse about whether or not to
have kids that is always focused on whether or not
you can go out for drinks or whether or not
you're is that's because all that stuff is entirely transient.
There will be a point in your life where you
don't want to do that stuff anyway. All those things,
and I.
Speaker 6 (46:14):
Agree with that is that it shouldn't be about will.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
They make my life better? That the people who think that,
the people who get the rude is shot. It will
make your life better if you want to do it,
but in all the ways you couldn't possibly imagine before.
And this is why it's tricky being a parent talking
about this, because the thing is parents have been non parents,
but non parents haven't been parents, so you can't really
(46:38):
express those things equally.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You're speaking a different language.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
But the idea that it is something that you should
just do without thinking about very much. I don't think
it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I asked my dad, but after I had learner, I went,
when did you decide that? When were you sure you
really wanted to have kids?
Speaker 6 (46:54):
And Dad was like what?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
And it became clear to me and I then like
relooked at like his entire life through the thing of oh,
that generation never decided to have children, like they never
What difference does does that make?
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Too?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Like that that the sense of whether or not you
had a choice in this and in the way that
your family how many kids. Of course my nan didn't
have a choice about how many kids she had, and like,
what does that do to your sense of agency and
stuff over your life? So I guess it's just it's
shifted dramatically, but I don't know I find this.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
I want some people to bombard Jesse with positive stories
about twins.
Speaker 6 (47:37):
Yes, And I also want to.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Remind you, even though you're going to punch me in
the face, is that when you're pregnant, little Learner, you
felt the same way. And I know this is different
because this is a much rarer and more unusual occurrence,
but one of your biggest surprises about being a mother
was how much you loved it. Maybe the biggest surprise
was the lot and how much joy you've found in it.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
And you know you've already lived this lesson.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
I remember saying, Guys, I'm like, it's really and we've had,
you know, lots of challenges and blah blah blah and
had our day, but guys, is great and people would
go Swayne until she's blut shat aut.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
I agree with you let's shut up about scaring the parents. Yeah,
out louders, That is all we have time for today.
I hope you have enjoyed our Wednesday show. Thank you
for listening. Remember we are on YouTube and if you
haven't seen that Ciena Miller picture I'm talking about, or
you want to see Amelia talk about fartwalks in person,
(48:38):
go follow us on YouTube and.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Go to our Instagram because we'll post that picture of
Ciena Miller. Go follow us there and out louders. I
have very exciting news. It is the festive season. We
are in December and so it's not just Tollie and
I who are getting gifts. There is a very exciting
giveaway that we're doing a subscriber giveaway, but we are
giving you the chance to win something to the Ultimate
(49:02):
cruise holiday for two. The best part is the winner
can pick any Royal Caribbean cruise destination in Australia and
New Zealand or the South Pacific in twenty twenty six.
You can choose your own adventure.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
So whin a holiday. If you want to be in
the running to win, all you have to do is
become a mum mea subscriber by December fourteen. And of course,
if you are already a subscriber, you're already in the running.
Don't lift a finger. There's a link with all the
details t's and c's in the show notes and good luck.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
And look, Jersey, do you think I can enter that
in the TNCs?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Do you pay for a subscription? Em Elia Leicester?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Okay, just say check. But look, if you listen to
this show and you already love a good cultural unraveling,
we know you do. That's why you love this show.
You will love the waight Why is this happening? Energy
on parenting Out Loud? It's out Loud, sister show, It's me,
it's Monique Bowley, It's Stacy Hicks, and we are pulling
(50:03):
pop culture apart. We are dissecting it through a parenting lens.
And this week we look at the social media ban
and Mom's asks whether this is the seatbelt moment of
this generation. She'll explain what she means by that. She
is convinced that this is going to change things for
a whole generation of kids. Stacy takes on Instagram's last
(50:24):
time trend. You know, when they're all all those soppy
posts that are like, when's the last time your kid
held your hand? Like we hate that, we talk about why.
And there's a Royal Christmas tree that absolutely sent me
into a shame spiral and you'll have to listen to
find out what it was. So follow Parenting out Loud
and listen every Saturday.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Massive thank you to our amazing team for helping us
put the show together today and.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
We will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Mum and Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
on which we have recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast, Amelia.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
We've had some feedback from our listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Go on.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
They say that they thank you very funny, and they
think that you have a future as a stand up comedian.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Don't stop it. Tell me more so.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The question is that you can do a tour in
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Do you know what's so funny is that this reminded
me that I did, in fact try stand up once
really watched this memory. I did stand up about ten
years ago when I was living in New York. A
friend invited me on her show that she used to
do every month, and she'd have a rotating cast of commedy.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Was it like an open mic?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And I a bit open mic? Live yeahotely live yeap.
And I found the email I sent out to my
friends about it, and I said, I'm going to be
talking about dating and restaurants because they were my two
special special subjects at the time, New York comedy. And
you know what's funny, Not a single person can remember
(01:12):
anything about this show, including me. I've asked friends now,
maybe they're being nice, Like I did some research today
and I texted them and I said, what was it?
Like because they're all on the email chain saying they
were coming. Everyone claims not to remember, including friends with
really good memories. And the friend who invited me onto
this open mic night, she ghosted me. After the event.
(01:34):
I discovered in my Gmail archives that she just disappears
from my Gmail archives. She never emailed me again. So
I think what this means is I probably shouldn't be
a stand.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
What it means is you should take our wonderful out
loud as comments, greenshot it and send it just context
this friend, yes, the next friend, with no context, but
with the meaning of somebody.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thinks, somebody thinks I'm funny.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to MoMA mea out loud. That's what
women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the third of December.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Amelia Last, and.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
And here's what's made our agenda for today, the photo
of a millennial icon that to me redefines what being
forty something means.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Now, Pilates is out, strength training is in. I want
to talk about what fitness trends say about us and
what we really want.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And if you're on the fence, about having kids just
don't have them?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Is that fair advice? And if so, why.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Did I have such a strong emotional reaction to it?
And let's hear Amelia and Holly tie themselves in knots
trying not to say the word hormones.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
The first.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
The influencer Indy Clinton has released a TikTok video that
is blowing people's minds. Let's have a listen to it.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
Hey, I was actually going to ask you guys for
your opinion on something, but I've already made up my mind,
so I may as well just tell you because I
don't need your opinion. I just want to let you
know what I'm doing as a mother. Make me think,
why don't more people do this? Because I actually can't
genuinely think of any reasons why this would be a
bad thing. My third child, Solina, that one, the third born,
have decided to change her birthday to the twelfth of December.
(03:26):
She was actually just too close to Christmas for my liking,
and I just I just thought, going forward, she's never
going to know we have officially changed it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yes, So what you can gather from that video is
that Indy Clinton has a daughter, her third daughter, who
I gather is a bit of a handful who had
a birthday close to Christmas and now Indy. Now, whether
or not this is true or not, take it with
a big grain of salt. But she suggests in this
video that she has changed her daughter's birthday so that
it is less close to Christmas. Now, I know you
(03:54):
are both December babies, and you're always banging on about
how hard it is to be a December baby. I
want to give you the floor. Do you love this idea? Holly, Yeah,
I do. I think she should do it. You don't, Okay,
But why is it so bad.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Because you can't actually change your birthday? I looked into
it because I thought, what.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
A good idea? Can I change one birthday? I actually can't.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
But one of the great things about having little kids
they don't know on their birthdays.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
Yeah, no, they have no idea.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
So for at least ten years, I reckon, you have
got the leeway to just tell them their birthday is
whatever it is, and then at some point you're going
to have to come clean. The reason why it's bad
to have birthday close to Christmas. Mind's on the twentieth,
which is five days before when I was a kid,
I hated it for just very superficial, shallow reasons. People
would often give you one present and say that's for
(04:44):
Birthday and Christmas. This is an unforgivable act, particularly the
little kids. Like little kids live for presents, you have
to wait all year round for it to be anything exciting.
Whereas my friends and my son who has a June birthday,
and my partner Brent has a June birthday very evenly
spaced celebrations and gifts.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Right, No, June is clearly the best month to have birthday,
and I'll be hearing no arguments on that. Jesse, do
you hate having a December birthday? Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I am December twenty one. My twin sisters December twenty one,
and then she had her daughter on December twenty.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
The universe was conspiring to teach you that same lesson.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I've been pitching you since I could speak.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I've been bitching, and then the universe went, actually, we're
gonna throw another one on your birthday. And now I'm
spending my birthday at Wiggles. So but that's a whole
other issue. But I think this is really smart the comments. Look,
Indy Clinton is a content genius to come up with
this idea, because I think everyone with kids trying to
organize a birthday party or something around this time of
(05:45):
year is thinking this is what they should do.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But also people are getting so angry.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
They're getting the comment they were so funny.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
They were like, your child's gonna get really confused because
they're gonna go on schoolies and they're gonna think they
can drink and they can't. And I was like, I
don't think that's going to happen, Like I think they're
going to come across their real birthday before schoollies.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It's for fine.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
As an adult, I don't have a problem anymore with
my birthday.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
I quite like it.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
It makes that time of the year all the good
things happen, you know. But the tricky part about it
is is it's hard to get other people to celebrate
you because they're all so busy. So Jesse, I can't
remember if it was you or Claire or both of
you who wrote a piece once from Mamma Maya about
how having a December birthday is actually quite personality defining.
And I think Indy Clinton needs to read it because
(06:32):
even if she pretends that her daughter was not born
near Christmas. You can't escape those personality vies.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Wait. Sorry, I'm sorry I didn't read this article, but
that's because it sounds silly. Explain to me how it's
personality defining.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
People born close to Christmas are superior because they have
a sense that they are not at the center of
the universe.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I'm like, oh, my true birthday, and.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We know that in terms of priority, we were never
made a fuss over. We probably have self esteem issues, Holly,
I think I could tread to that not about us,
and if not about about us, I haven't got to
Westfield yet.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And I wonder if we changed our birthdays to make
to give ourselves the mere time we couldn't handle it.
We would not we wouldn't organize a birthday well, like
it would just be too weird. I'm like, it's so
incompatible with my personality. It must always be a struggle.
And like people saying they can't come and me stumping
(07:37):
my feet up and down is what birthday is all about.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Indy Clint's kidding herself because she she says to her
in her words, that this child is a little bit
of a handful. Yes, of course, she is because she
has a December birthday.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Moving in two weeks is not going to change that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And if you're going to move it, you've got.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
To move it to the best.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I have to draw the pod cast collective attention to
a photograph of one Sienna Miller. Now, do we think
the outlouders are all across who Sienna Miller is?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That My millennial reference point is Alfhi.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Is that and Jude Law. She dated Jude Law and
she just was the Coollers. She went to Glastonbury and
looked cooler than Kate Moss.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Every time I go to the hairdresser, I say, I
want Sienna Miller's hair from Alfie, like I want the
Curt Bend. That's twig, Yes exactly, I will my last
words to head.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
She's just always been the coolest woman she has She's
she it girl was a term much used about her
in her youth. She dated lots of handsome, famous men.
She had an excellent resurgence with the show The Anatomy
of a Scandal a few years ago, which was like
a political British She's She's really, she's great.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Not relevant to this story, but Jude of course cheated
on her with the name.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
With the nanny, and then there would be something to
do with a man that anyway, whatever, anyway in the picture,
this is obviously an audio medium unless you're watching us
on YouTube, but we I'm sure you can find it
and we'll put it on our socials. In this photo right,
Sienna Miller is at the Fashion Awards in London on
Monday night, so just a few days ago. She is
(09:24):
visibly bloomingly pregnant. She has very long blonde hair in
mermaid waves. She is wearing a completely see through moomoo
which has a bra top with cutaways.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Holly wrong use of the word murmur. I think it's negligent. Okay,
it's like a nightties It's.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Like a negligey nighty moo moo thing and white nickers
which are obviously very visible, and feathery heels.
Speaker 6 (09:51):
She looks incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
It's like a Greek goddess.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And all I can think is Sienna Miller is forty three,
and this is this what forty's look like now, pregnant
and three. I want to be clear before we get
into this, this is not a conversation about old moms.
I had my second kid at forty there's no issues
(10:17):
with any of that, of course, And it's also not
about what age appropriate clothes should be about, because who
cares about that. For me, it's about how this image
tells us that we have very successfully extended use.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
There is just no way that even.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
A decade ago, a woman in her early forties would
look like this, dressed like this, be presenting like this
if she was pregnant, it would be being described as
some kind of miracle and everyone would be falling over
about it, whereas this didn't really raise that many eyebrows
at all. It makes me think, you know, forties used
(10:56):
to be old. And when I say this, I mean
in the culture. I don't mean that we think that necessarily,
and certainly, I'm ten years older than Sienna Miller. I
don't feel old. But in the culture, thirties used to
be like there was this show called thirty something that
was huge in the early nineties that was all about
how boring it was to be in your thirties is
so old and boring. Forties was really old, fifties was ancient,
(11:17):
and beyond that was unthinkable. And one of the things
I think when I look at this image is we
have really extended youth.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Am I crazy the rebrand particularly of one's forties? And
I think that gen X is in the process of
doing this with their fifties.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
As they moved through it. We absolutely are.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
But the successful rebrand of the decade of the forties
is one of the most phenomenal things to witness.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Like, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, it used to be the epitome of middle age,
a term which we don't use anymore. We use the
term midlife, which doesn't sound better.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
Technically it is middle aged.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I have a anecdote which perfectly illustrates the rebrand. In
the nineties, when I was growing up, I was given
a board game I'm a jum Birthday, get a lot
of gifts, and it was called Life Begins at forty.
And the premise of this board game on the cover
was a convertible car with two quote unquote old looking
(12:20):
people streaming off into the sunset. Cash just flowing out
of the car. Kids gone, mortgage paid off. The whole
game was about getting rid of all of these things
that were tying you down, the kids and the mortgage
and the job, because you're now setting off into the
sunset into walls were essentially a dotage. Yeah, And that
concept of forty as being the full crum between young
(12:42):
and old, I think that's just completely gone now.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
And what do we think obviously, I mean you can
put cosmetic surgery. I think longevity science is another thing,
probably the trajectory of one's career as well as the
other thing. So it used to be that you kind
of hit the heights of your career in your thirties,
and your forties and fifties you slowed down and quite
(13:07):
you know, mostly for men.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It depends on what your career is because the boss,
the CEO, the prime minister, the president traditionally was always
a man in his fifties, right, a white man in
his fifties was power decade. But for women that has
always that has been always different. You know, you were
in the culture once you had it once upon a time,
(13:29):
once you were married, it was kind of like not
very not very cool anymore. Then certainly as a mother
you were shuffled off to like the uninteresting corner. And
then being over thirty even was once like a bit
old now and.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Now it's I'm gonna retrain to be a psychotherapist at
forty five, Like it's this whole it's this era of
reinvention a lot of because this is I suppose a
story about celebrity where you look at your Sienna Miller's
and you could go the Kardashian's, the Kardashian era too.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Like Rachel Weiss just announced she was pregnant in her
mid forties.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Kim Kardashian is forty five and and looks better than
she did at twenty five. Right, I don't think this
is just a celebrity story. I'm seeing this in my
real world with what I.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Want to see. Is that true?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
The women I know in their forties are thriving. They
are saying they've never felt better, They look incredible, they
have a focus on health. They like it's nothing like
it's just nothing like middle age. And I remember when
my mom turned forty, going mom's old, like I.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Remember having this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
It was the forty thing was just this enormous moment
that's certainly been shifted back.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
It was always like a punchline in sitcoms when someone
turned forty, they were expected to just be despondent for
the whole year, because there was this idea of like,
youth is done now for so one foot in the grave.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Miranda Hobbes famously said on Sex and the City, forty
three is her scary age, Like that was what she said,
And statistically that's still likely the midpoint of your life.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yeah, so, yes, so it is the midpoint of your life.
But we don't call women in their forties middle age,
mostly because they would punch us in the face if
we did. Don't call me middle age. I will punch
you in the face.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Because of your protein you're creating and yes, training, yes.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
But the thing that's interesting, as you've touched on, is
whether or not this is real, like whether the Sienna
Miller mirage in her you know, gorgeous, blooming forty three
In all ways, does trickle down because I think, you know, obviously,
advancement in technology, which is everything from skin care to
(15:43):
cosmetic surgery, nutrition to wellness trends to exercise to you know,
and to a certain echelon of people having access to
a lot of stuff that many of us probably didn't understand,
But does trickle down Like once upon a time, you know,
injectables were things that only very fancy, rich people, famous
(16:05):
people did, and now you can get it at theist
or your hairdressers, you know, advances in weight loss technology. Again,
things that really fancy people did and really rich people
did with their fancy doctors. Now so mainstream we see
it everywhere. We look, same with even things like exercise,
Like the legend goes that Marilyn Monroe was jogging in
(16:25):
the nineteen fifties and everyone thought she was in set,
like why would you do that?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:29):
Whereas and we have this obsession now with longevity, which
they think is going to well, it is the big
boom space. And that means everything from that really famous
guy who's trying.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Not to die Brian Johnson.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Too, extending fertility through various different kinds of treatments. So
we are obsessed with this extension of youth for very
obvious reasons. There is nothing more frightening than death, right so,
and aging is a signal of it. So we are
pushing at that and pushing at that. I don't know
that I think it's a good thing or a bad
(17:02):
thing or anything, but it's just so interesting.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
Is it a good thing a bad thing?
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I worry about it a little bit, And that question
of whether or not we're really just setting up unrealistic
expectations for women in their forties, so there's certainly a
good side to it. Just this week we saw Jody
Hayden marry the Prime Minister. She is a woman in
her mid forties. That was barely remarked on that she
was getting married at that age. In fact, no one
(17:29):
even talked about it. Really, it was seen as completely unremarkable,
Whereas in a previous generation, the idea of having that
full traditional wedding in your mid forties probably wouldn't have
happened like that. There probably would have been a sense
of shame or stigma around it. So I think it's
great that we're removing that idea of shame and stigma
around having to do milestones at certain ages. What I
(17:50):
worry about is that any woman who chooses not to
opt into that competitive aging, because that's what this is essentially,
it's like how well can I age? How can I
beat everyone else at aging, which is after all something
all of us go through. Women who opt out of
it are judged and even mocked merciless for doing so.
I'm thinking, for instance, of Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales,
(18:16):
and remember the sort of sense of disbelief on the
internet when she was seen looking slightly less than perfect
recently because she had some very obvious kind of hair
touch ups and she had some wrinkles which she had
not taken out through cosmetic procedures. So I just worry
that we're just potentially, yes, we're taking some stigma away,
(18:39):
but are we then judging women who don't want to
opt into that whole thing?
Speaker 4 (18:44):
But I don't think it's all about what you look
like like. The thing that why that's Cienamella thing is
so so striking to me is obviously it's about what
she looks like in that terms of the whole presentation
of it. But throwing the baby belly, it's almost like
saying age isn't where, We're beyond it, we're ageless.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Now they're know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Sphere that rejects that entirely. And I think that there
is a real rub happening between the.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
Culture and reality.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I think it's medicine, right, you go to the doctor.
So you're sixty, I know a lot like my parents' generation.
They are like my nan would have had a walking
stick at sixty. My parents are on holiday, they are exercising,
they are feeling wonderful. They go to the doctor and
they go, you're a senior. Yeah, they use the word senior,
and it's like this confronting who's a senior?
Speaker 4 (19:37):
Where I find it really really confronting. When I go
to the doctor and I'm complaining about something and they say, well,
you're in your fifties, I kind of like want to
say and excuse me, excuse me.
Speaker 6 (19:48):
I don't feel so anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
We can see that image of Sienna Miller. But then
on the flip side you have Claire Danes who just
recently spoke really candidly about falling pregnant at forty four
and feeling an enormous amount of shame that she thought
people were looking at her going why is she falling
pregnant at that age? It's dangerous And I am as
(20:11):
a foremation, my birthday is coming up. Please send me gifts.
I will be thirty five, which will make me officially
a geriatric pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
That is a term.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
The other one they use is advanced maternal age, which,
as it doesn't feel better.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I feel that they need to get to get rid
of that, not talk about as the average age of
mother's changes in lots of countries like Australia because I
also had I had geriatric pregnancies. They really need to
rethink the pr of that, or do they.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, that's what I mean, because doctors aren't about PR.
Doctors are about stats, they're about studies, they are about risk.
They are going what we know is that your I
had an appointment the other day they talked to me
about bone density and I said, I think you've misunderstood.
I am thirty four years old, and they like, so
you can do whatever you want culturally and rebrand something.
(21:01):
But then you go to the doctor and they go, oh,
I can see your age. We're going to do all
of these tests, and it's like, why age is just
an illusion, that's not.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
My partner, who is a physician, had a patient once
who came in. She would come in every month for
a checkup, and that's because she was one hundred and
one and every month she'd come in and they do
the check up and everything was fine. And then one
time she came in, he said, how are you feeling today?
And she said, oh, I'm good, I'm just a little
bit tired. And he said, yeah, do you think that
(21:33):
could have something to do with the fact that you're
one hundred and one years old, but no one can exit.
No one actually thinks that they're old on the inside.
They just think, why am I tired? I don't think
it's because I've reached a century.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
I also think that, like lots of things, this is
just going to become a real status symbol.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
It already has like aging, whether and when I say that,
I don't just mean your physical face. I mean aging
is beginning to look like a choice if you've got
the access and the resources to be able to fight it.
You know, whether you are the richest man in the
world who are convinced they want to live forever and
longevity is going to be apparently worth trillions of dollars
(22:12):
in a few years, or whether down to us who
are just like, oh, is that rinkle going to stop
me getting a job?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like?
Speaker 6 (22:18):
It's going to become a very stratified thing.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
In a moment. Is Pilates a giant scam? Pilarates might
be over bad news for anyone who loves their reformer classes.
But Jesse sent me a newsletter the other day. It's
called Body Type. It's written by MICHAELA. Jamison, and in
(22:47):
this newsletter, Michayla kind of takes down pilates as the
exercise trend at the moment.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
It's lucky for me because I've been meaning to get
back to pilates for thirteen years and now I can
just go, oh.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
Well, it's out of fashion.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I never should have done it.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
After a though, Jamison writes that back in twenty twenty two,
the woman who did Polardi that was shorthand for being
a hot woman. But now that whole idea of like
the hot exercise has become strength training, which, by the way,
Jamison thinks is great. She thinks this is a good trend.
It's a much more effective way for women to meet
their fitness goals, That's what she says. But I don't
(23:24):
so much want to get into which form of exercise
is most efficient, because we're not the experts on that.
What I want to talk about is fitness trends, because
they definitely do exist. This piece reminded me of that,
and back in twenty twelve, running was the fitness trend.
Remember there was this scene from thirtie Rock where Alec
Baldwin's character is talking to Elizabeth Banks's character. They're dating
(23:44):
at the time, and this interaction lives rent free in
my head. You went running, I thought you'd left.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Who else is out there this early?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Almost exclusively women that look like me?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
If the perverse community gets wind of morning jogging, oh
god help us.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
Have you seen this?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So morning jogging was it back then? And now we
had pilates for a few years and now it's strength training.
I think it's his lot about where we're at as
a culture, about which one of these fitness trends is
most popular. Jamison says that Polarates was kind of pernicious,
That's what she says. She says that as Thinness was
coming back in full force after many years of body positivity,
(24:21):
Polartes kind of popularized what she calls a cut paste body,
like really long, lean muscles, and she says that whole
aesthetic was ultimately quite damaging to women as well as
being really hard to attain. Jesse, you've noticed this shift
in the culture away from polates and why do you
think that is? What do you think is coming next?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
So I am the ultimate sheep when it comes to
this stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I go.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
When I went to the gym in my early twenties,
it was cardio and core. You'd do a few sit
ups and you'd get on some sort of cardio machine
and be like, this is what women do it.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Like the elliptical, Like you take your sort of gossip
mag and your giant iced coffee and just sort of
hang out there.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
For you that's what you were meant to do.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
For a while.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Actually, I got into like interval like where you get
your heart rate up and yeah, because I went, yeah,
it's about getting a heart rate up and down as
though like I think I'm a pete like because I
read a thing, And then I got really into pilates
and then moved on to strength training because of aforementioned
bone density strength training. There's some really interesting analysis about
(25:29):
why that is so. Firstly, it is because of the
rise of the midlife woman, who is all of a sudden,
the most shared podcast episodes of the last twelve months
are all about midlife nutrition and exercise. It's a really
specific We.
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Had got to Stacy Simms. She is doctor.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Stacy Simms is one of those women. She was the
most shared on Mel Robbins this year. But she was
on mid and I interviewed her for Mid and that
episode went nuts. But some people were really annoyed with it,
and some people loved it to be why were they annoyed, Well,
I found it very reassuring because one of doctor Stacy
Simms things is that she thinks we've all been steered
(26:12):
a bit wrong about exercise because she says, you know,
she points out all the time, we're not small men,
and nearly all the research that we live and die
by was done on men. And she basically said, well,
she's a big proponent of weight training massive and of
interval training actually, but some people find any kind of
advice in that. And I definitely have said this on
(26:34):
the podcast before. I find when we were looking at
Jessica Bial's workout to remember that, I can find it very.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Like.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
It just makes you feel it just seems unattainable. It
just seems complicated, unattainable.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It just feels like alienating and alienating and like, oh
my god, I get you know, half an hour of
exercise in a day, which is the reality for most
women that I know, and now it's so complex.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
So some people pushed back on that, but you're right, Jesse,
like that advice, the weight training advice has become so mainstream.
I was at a park on Friday night and a
woman asked me what I was lifting.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
That's always a good gift.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
The first time anyone has ever asked me that.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
I thought only dudes asked each other that.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
And I didn't know what the answer was because I
sometimes lift ways in the gym.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
I don't know what they are.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I asked you. You said you were doing leg presses,
and I said how much.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
I was like, I have not no idea.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I don't know, but I was like, Oh, the fact
that this is now mainstream party conversation for women of
a certain era that says a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I was reading about it.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It was El magazine had a thing that basically said
big shoulders are in and it was talking about the
Jessica bill back moment from this year, but also about
how the regressive politics in the US at the moment
and what feels like kind of stripping women of certain rights.
There is this like feminine rage and energy and what
(28:02):
muscles represent, like women wanting to appear and feel strong
in the selves and what that means.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
But my theory that's true.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
By the way, I've heard that from a number of
newsletters that I subscribe to. Right people want to feel
empowered at a point where they feel like they don't
have any control over the political landscape.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And cardio doesn't necessarily make you feel like it can
make you feel lighter, I suppose, But this is a
real polarity.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
It doesn't make you feel that. I love it, but
it doesn't give it.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
It's classic that it's you know, all of these things,
as per the first conversation we're having today, are about
trends in women's bodies, like do they want to feel
tiny and fragile? Do they want to feel strong? But
that just is it's just all such nonsense, right, It's
all such nonsense. Why are our bodies subject to trends
when we all know the best exercise you can do
(28:53):
is one you'll do yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
And it's also a response I think to any sort
of weight loss injections that's going to change how we exercise,
which is that like you lose muscle, and so the
recommendation is you go and muscle yep. But this is
where I reckon it's going. You know, when you see
something for the first time and then suddenly you see
the word everywhere and it's like I am so seeing it.
(29:15):
I reckon twenty twenty six. The word in fitness that
we're going to be hearing is mobility, right, because mobility
is going to be the a status marker of youth.
And by mobility, what I mean is how you what,
how you stand, how you get up, how you move
your body.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
That's what I obsessed with with Aniston and her whatever
that she's doing on that check at clawsh I think.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
It's going to be less about how you look and
more about how you move. So everywhere I'm seeing a
lot of fitness even influencers, now we're doing like here's
a hip mobility, here's a blah mobility fifteen twenty minutes.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And call mobility. I feel like I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, physios are doing it like they're going, this is.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
What listening to this are like, We've always.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Because I've always been doing it because they're like, you
can go and lift whatever you want, but if you
don't have mobility in your back or your hips, then
you can't.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Actually, Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
You need all the things. This just reminds me the
have a video I saw recently, and I don't mean
to mock a man, but a little bit. It was
a Leonardo DiCaprio the god who is Leonardo DiCaprio getting
out of a car, And just before he got out
of a car, his girlfriend got out of the car.
She's a twenty seven year old Italian model and her
name is Victoria c Ceretti. Anyway, the car door opens,
(30:39):
it's graandy paparazzi footage. This young like foal leaps from
the car and rushes past the paparazzi.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Into the car.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Any hands to get up, and then DiCaprio, who's only
I think he's probably just a bit older than me,
is he.
Speaker 6 (30:53):
He gets out of the car and it's not like
he's hobbling like an old dude.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
But you know how he always has his baseball down,
even at Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
It's just the way he walked from the car.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
To the restaurant that was the betrayal.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
It's just every really little tiny bit, just like the
man in his fifty It is true. We were just
talking about how longevity is the buzzword, and this news
is that people are like, I don't want to walk
like an old person. I don't want to move like
an old person. I want to My feed is just
wall to wall people going. If you do a hundred
hops in the morning, then you will always move like
(31:26):
a blah.
Speaker 6 (31:27):
But it's so true.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And don't you reckon too that.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
You know how even social media photos and the selfie
camera and all of that changed how we saw ourselves
in our bodies. Everything is video.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Oh, such a good point.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Everything is video.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So I think that we've got this sense of like
we care how we move, even in parties classes I've done,
I've noticed I'll do a thing where they go they
get you to see it on a on a thing
and then it's like, try and stand up with one leg.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
This will mean that you can stand up without hands.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
At eighty Like that's really important, which is really important,
and it's important for literally like breaking a hip can
be a death sentence at eighty.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
So like that kind of stuff I just reckon.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And mobility is going to be the thing we focus
more and more on, which isn't a bad thing, but
it is about how we move rather than how we look.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I think that's brilliant. I have another prediction. Yes, I
read an article recently that I cannot stop thinking about,
which was in Self magazine, and it suggested that we
should all be going for fart walks.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
Yes, telling me this for a long time.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Fart walks. So basically, after your evening meal, you just
go out and you take yourself on a fart walk.
It's thirty minutes or whatever, really just so you can
do a few farts and digest.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Good for digestion, yeap.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
And it's actually great for then going to sleep afterwards
because you've just sort of settled your stomach.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And that's what they say when you have like constipation issues.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's all about movie, yep. And it can be a
nice thing to do with a partner or with a child.
I have tried to take my children on fart walks
with mixed success. But I just think that I hear
you on the mobile, I do. But I think twenty
twenty six is the year of the fart war.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
And fiber friends.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
You know how all year I've been protein protein shoving
cottage cheese and everything from sandwiches to cocktails to.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Coffee, just like more cottage cheese.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And then now it's just like fiber, fiber, fiber, and
I'm like, oh my god, I'm worried about the cottage cheese, Holly.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I feel like there can be a lot of heartwalks,
body picks with all that fiber after the break the
article about parenting that made me puff a fish and
I need Amelia and Holly to shock me down. Every
Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of mummya out
Loud just for Mummia subscribers. Follow the link in the
(33:50):
show notes to get your daily dose of out loud
and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.
If you're on the fence about kids, don't do it.
That was the headline on an article published in the
Sydney Morning Herald yesterday written by Zoya Paatel, and I
(34:13):
had a visceral reaction to it. I hadn't read it yet.
I'd just seen the headline with the feature image, which
had a woman who like head in hands pouring coffee
onto the table while a kid in the background was
like eh. I was like, yeah, all right, I think
I get the gist. I read it and appreciated her argument,
(34:34):
although I have a few rebuttals. She writes that she
was on the fence about whether or not to have kids,
and she ultimately decided to have a child who is
now her two year old son. And this is a
quote while he has changed my life in incredibly positive ways.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
He has also altered my life.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
In challenging ways too, And in the context of cultural
wars between the child free and parents, I think parents
should be more honest about this.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
She says.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Of course, she loves him intensely. She talks about the
gratitude of watching him grow up and learn about the world.
But she I can imagine a life without him. She
rejects that cliche.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
She says, I can.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Imagine a life without him. It would have been a
perfectly nice, fulfilling one.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Now it is very.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Possible that it's the hormones currently coursing throughout my body.
But my question is can you can you imagine a
world without your kids? And would you advise women on
the fence not to do it?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Can you explain why you got angry at this, because
this seems very obvious.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I had to analyze it, and I realized that it's
less about the article and more about the discourse I
feel it's playing in, which is that I see so
much negativity and I am so sensitive to it, so
much negativity about parenting, and it is so much worse
(35:57):
when you have twins on the way, like I have
not heard a single good thing. People don't come up
to you and say, like, people get excited about the pregnancy,
but it's like they want to tell you how hard
it is. And that's because it is, yes, yes, and
people say it when they go through the shops with twins.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Everyone kind of goes, how do you do it?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And I'm in like mums of multiples groups on Facebook
and it's all terrifying, which that's probably their only support network.
Like that's fair enough, but this is a terrible analogy.
But you know how if you're on a holiday, a
girl's trip, right, Let's say you're another country and there's
someone on your trip who just bitches the whole time
about the hotel and about the country and about the
(36:42):
food and about the bla and you stop being able
to enjoy it because you have this in your ear.
I just worry that the Internet does that to us.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Sometimes, Jesse.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
I have enormous sympathy for you about that, because I
think that what you're experiencing there is, you know, a
very inflated version of what all parents experience the first
time they're pregnant, which is when we discussed this at
the time, when you're with that. Everyone likes to tell
your birth horror story. Everyone likes to tell you.
Speaker 6 (37:10):
Oh, I hope you're getting your sleep, and.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Da da da da da, all that life is over yet.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
But this article was not aimed at you. It was
aimed at women who are on the fence about parenting.
If it's aimed at anyquity, right, And the advice in it,
which is, if you don't know, understand how hard it
is before you make that choice, make an informed choice,
is very good advice.
Speaker 6 (37:31):
It's the opposite.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
The thing that's interesting to me culturally is it's the
opposite of the very accepted you're never ready, just do it,
which is basically the parenting advice we all get all
the time, and every young woman gets any time she
expresses that maybe she's not desperate to have a baby
because of this reason or that reason. Maybe it's financial,
maybe it's relationship, maybe it's whatever. And generally the culture
(37:54):
is pushing on young women all the time to have babies,
have them now, don't wait, your fertility is running out.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
You're never ready have babies. Have babies.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
This, to me, rather than being part of a overwhelming
negative discourse, is like a tiny pushback on that.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I think you're right, and she had a really good
point about the hubris of thinking that you can recommend
a person have a child either way.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
I don't think you should, like I don't.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Think it's anyone's business.
Speaker 6 (38:22):
Like a foundation, I don't think you recommending.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
And I think being evangelical about everyone should have them
is the most ridiculous thing in the world. And the
privilege involved in being able to enjoy parenting is like
a whole other thing that I think is really really true.
But I wonder if the result of the declining birth
(38:46):
rate is that half my friends have kids, half of
them don't. And do I think the people who don't
should have them? No.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Most of my friends have taken a really long time
to make a decision, and I'm not seeing a lot
of parental regret because they've come to that decision and
they're really really happy.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
With falling divorce statistics that we've talked about. People are
getting married later, they're living together first, they're considering it
more so, they're making a better choice.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes, but the result of that is that now we
are exposed to the other path more so my parents.
Ninety eight percent of my parents' friends had kids. There
was no one going on a holiday, There was no
one going out to dinner, there was no one having
cocktails on a Friday night. They weren't exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
But now, because this choice is.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Being made and we're almost going in these two cabs,
you can see it. Yeah, you go, oh, there is
a life where I didn't and I can see it
and taste it and touch it in a way that
maybe previous generations couldn't. Amelily did you relate to this well?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I thought it was very brave because I think it's
really hard for women to say something like what the
author says, which is that she can imagine a life
without her child, which would be a perfectly nice, fulfilling one,
because the cliche is I can't imagine my life with
that little kid in it. And I just love that
(40:14):
she felt brave enough to put this, to put this
down on paper, because I do think it will be
very helpful for women who caught in this choice, and
I think a lot of women struggle with this choice.
And my microgeneration, although we're both millennials, I feel that
I'm older than you, and I think that we didn't
(40:36):
have as much openness around this conversation, as even you
did a few years later on. It was very much
seen as a default for elder millennials that you would
have children eventually. So I love that she's opening up
a debate that I felt that my microgeneration just didn't have.
Do you feel like that.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Was I think it's funny how we all see our
own generations as being, you know, trailblazing in some way
or another, because I gen X in a way started
the not settling down in the early years, you know.
I often say this, Like my really core group of
friends from sort of that I met at Union, used
to live with and everything in London, we are exactly
(41:16):
fifty to fifty on whether or not we became parents.
There are six of us, three did, three didn't. That's
it And I think it's really and I have no
strong opinions about whether or not anybody should or shouldn't.
What I think is actually really good is somebody saying
and I get your point, Jesse. I think that in
some ways there was a long time where women weren't
(41:37):
allowed to say anything negative about parenting, and then we,
like the Internet, in a way, open the floodgates for
women to be able to express a lot of things
about parenting that were previously unsaid, and it does feel
at times like a massive winge fest. And I think
there has been a correction in that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
If you spent twenty four hours on the internet, you
would not be convinced have children.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
But then again, it is really hard having children, Like
it's and I know you have to immediately follow that
up with but it's wonderful and I love them, and
I wouldn't have made a different choice, and all those
things are true. But the moments when it's very hard,
and I have found it very hard, particularly a particular stages,
with particular challenges. I have often thought, imagine trying to
(42:20):
do this with not the advantages that I have, without
whatever support I did have, and if I hadn't really
wanted to do it, do you know what I mean? Like,
I think it is one of the things in life
that you really should want to do. To do it,
I think there are plenty of things that you can
feel ambivalent about and go, sure, I want to go
(42:41):
to Thailand, I don't care, you know, But having kids,
I actually think is a very serious choice. We could
all look around the world and go those parents probably
shouldn't have had kids. That person probably shouldn't have had kid.
That person's unhappy, that person's fucking them up. And again,
I don't want to sound harsh, there's no such thing
as perfect parenting. I'm certainly not that, but I don't
(43:04):
think you should just do it if you don't want
to know.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And it is, it is a serious responsibility. It reminds
me of another article I read this week about someone
who tried a self driving car. She was in Melbourne,
and I guess she'd tried like a sort of Tesla,
a new type of Tesla that's self driving, and she
was scared to use it at first, and then she
discovered how lovely it was for the car to drive
itself around the city streets. And she wrote in this
(43:29):
article that she realized, having experienced that that driving is
a huge responsibility that we just casually take on every day.
Just because something is common or widespread, or we all
do it or most of us do it, doesn't mean
that it's not a serious commitment and responsibility. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I guess my other concern with it, that actually isn't
about this article, but more about the broader conversation, is
that sometimes there's this tendency to talk about kids like
their these accessories that you choose to have to enrich
your life, and they either enriched your life enough or
(44:08):
they didn't enrich your life enough, and we write about
them as though they will never read the words that
we write about them. There are there are sometimes things
I read on the Internet and I'm very in this
parenting space where I go, if your kid reads out
one day, they'll be horrified, like what if there is
(44:28):
this conversation or this thought in the back of all
these parents' heads that's like, oh, there's a world in
which I didn't have.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
You like or But again, I understand why it's sensitive
about that. And there are some There is an article
that I read in Grazia magazine years and years ago
that sticks in my head because it was a woman
and she named herself talking about her favorite child, and
she had two kids, and one of them was a
bloody delight and the other one was difficult and had
(44:56):
tantrums every time they went to the supermarket and d
Now that has stuck in my mind because I thought
that is unforgivable. That is absolutely unforgivable and narcissistic and
all those things.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
But there's a.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Degree here, and I think there are worse things in
the world for a kid to hear than I had
a life before you, you know what I mean, and
it was fine. There are many worse things for a
kid to know than that. I actually think it's really healthy,
like for your kids to know absolutely love you to bits,
but you know what, things were fine before you came along?
Speaker 6 (45:30):
Like, what's wrong with that?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (45:31):
Is that a bad thing?
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I remember? I'm thinking you'll be fine after you leave.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Two, when you're off living your life and I'm just
someone you have to call once a week.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
I'm gonna be all right. Like, is that a terrible
thing for a child to know?
Speaker 4 (45:42):
As long as they are loved, as long as they
know how like they are your top priority day to day.
Is it really so awful for your kids to know
that you weren't their only choice, that they weren't your
only choice.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
No, I guess just always looking at them through the
prism of like, how are you enriching my life?
Speaker 4 (45:58):
I agree with you about that, And that's one of
the things that the discourse about whether or not to
have kids that is always focused on whether or not
you can go out for drinks or whether or not
you're is that's because all that stuff is entirely transient.
There will be a point in your life where you
don't want to do that stuff anyway. All those things,
and I.
Speaker 6 (46:14):
Agree with that is that it shouldn't be about will.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
They make my life better? That the people who think that,
the people who get the rude is shot. It will
make your life better if you want to do it,
but in all the ways you couldn't possibly imagine before.
And this is why it's tricky being a parent talking
about this, because the thing is parents have been non parents,
but non parents haven't been parents, so you can't really
(46:38):
express those things equally.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You're speaking a different language.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
But the idea that it is something that you should
just do without thinking about very much. I don't think
it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
I asked my dad, but after I had learner, I went,
when did you decide that? When were you sure you
really wanted to have kids?
Speaker 6 (46:54):
And Dad was like what?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
And it became clear to me and I then like
relooked at like his entire life through the thing of oh,
that generation never decided to have children, like they never
What difference does does that make?
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Too?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Like that that the sense of whether or not you
had a choice in this and in the way that
your family how many kids. Of course my nan didn't
have a choice about how many kids she had, and like,
what does that do to your sense of agency and
stuff over your life? So I guess it's just it's
shifted dramatically, but I don't know I find this.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
I want some people to bombard Jesse with positive stories
about twins.
Speaker 6 (47:37):
Yes, And I also want to.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Remind you, even though you're going to punch me in
the face, is that when you're pregnant, little Learner, you
felt the same way. And I know this is different
because this is a much rarer and more unusual occurrence,
but one of your biggest surprises about being a mother
was how much you loved it. Maybe the biggest surprise
was the lot and how much joy you've found in it.
Speaker 6 (47:56):
And you know you've already lived this lesson.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
I remember saying, Guys, I'm like, it's really and we've had,
you know, lots of challenges and blah blah blah and
had our day, but guys, is great and people would
go Swayne until she's blut shat aut.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
I agree with you let's shut up about scaring the parents. Yeah,
out louders, That is all we have time for today.
I hope you have enjoyed our Wednesday show. Thank you
for listening. Remember we are on YouTube and if you
haven't seen that Ciena Miller picture I'm talking about, or
you want to see Amelia talk about fartwalks in person,
(48:38):
go follow us on YouTube and.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Go to our Instagram because we'll post that picture of
Ciena Miller. Go follow us there and out louders. I
have very exciting news. It is the festive season. We
are in December and so it's not just Tollie and
I who are getting gifts. There is a very exciting
giveaway that we're doing a subscriber giveaway, but we are
giving you the chance to win something to the Ultimate
(49:02):
cruise holiday for two. The best part is the winner
can pick any Royal Caribbean cruise destination in Australia and
New Zealand or the South Pacific in twenty twenty six.
You can choose your own adventure.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
So whin a holiday. If you want to be in
the running to win, all you have to do is
become a mum mea subscriber by December fourteen. And of course,
if you are already a subscriber, you're already in the running.
Don't lift a finger. There's a link with all the
details t's and c's in the show notes and good luck.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
And look, Jersey, do you think I can enter that
in the TNCs?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Do you pay for a subscription? Em Elia Leicester?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Okay, just say check. But look, if you listen to
this show and you already love a good cultural unraveling,
we know you do. That's why you love this show.
You will love the waight Why is this happening? Energy
on parenting Out Loud? It's out Loud, sister show, It's me,
it's Monique Bowley, It's Stacy Hicks, and we are pulling
(50:03):
pop culture apart. We are dissecting it through a parenting lens.
And this week we look at the social media ban
and Mom's asks whether this is the seatbelt moment of
this generation. She'll explain what she means by that. She
is convinced that this is going to change things for
a whole generation of kids. Stacy takes on Instagram's last
(50:24):
time trend. You know, when they're all all those soppy
posts that are like, when's the last time your kid
held your hand? Like we hate that, we talk about why.
And there's a Royal Christmas tree that absolutely sent me
into a shame spiral and you'll have to listen to
find out what it was. So follow Parenting out Loud
and listen every Saturday.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
Massive thank you to our amazing team for helping us
put the show together today and.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
We will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Mum and Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
on which we have recorded this podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.