February 10, 2025 • 41 mins
The world is watching one of Australia’s best-known scammer’s story unfolding on the Netflix show Apple Cider Vinegar. So what’s true and what’s not about Belle Gibson and the rise of the wellness warriors?
Plus, you might have heard that Australian psychiatrists are quitting on mass. What’s going on with our mental health crisis. We explain.
And… a very famous actress became a mother last month and the world is obsessed with HOW. We’re unpacking Lily Collins and the fascination with celebrity surrogacy.
Support independent women's media
Get your tickets to the Mamamia Out Loud Live 2025 All or Nothing Tour Presented By Nivea Cellular
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: "Mummy, I Can See Her Bum"
- Listen: We're Desperate To Talk About 'Nightbitch'
- Listen: Anna Paul & The Anatomy Of A Very 2025 Feud
- Listen: The Grammys In Superficial Detail
- Listen: Kate Ritchie Knows She’s “Not OK”, Thanks
- Listen to Extraordinary Stories Belle Gibson
- Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts
The End Bits:
Sign up to the Mamamia Out Loud Newsletter for all our recommendations and behind-the-scenes content in one place.
What To Read:
- Read: Everything you need to know about the Mamamia Out Loud ALL OR NOTHING TOUR coming May 2025
- Read: Jess Ainscough was Australia's first alternative medicine influencer. Her story ended tragically.
- Read: What's true (and what's not) in Netflix's Apple Cider Vinegar.
GET IN TOUCH:
Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au
Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message
Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show.
Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud
CREDITS:
Hosts: Holly Wainwright, Mia Freedman & Jessie Stephens
Group Executive Producer: Ruth Devine
Executive Producer: Emeline Gazilas
Audio Producer: Leah Porges
Video Producer: Josh Green
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
What actually happened to her in real life, because in
the show she does for a period seem to heal
herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in
real life?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah? Well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have,
like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment
is not having scans. If you're not having scans, how
do you know if it's working or not.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Monday the tenth of February.
I'm Hollywayne, right.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm Meya Friedman and I'm Jesse Stephens.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And on today's show, the world is watching one of
Australia's best known scammers stories when folding on the Netflix
show Apple Side of Vinegar. So what's true and what's
not about Bell Gibson and the rise of the wellness Warriors. Also,
you might have heard that Australian psychiatrists are quitting en
mass So what's going on with our mental health crisis?
(01:18):
And a very famous actress became a mother last month,
and the world is obsessed with how we're unpacking the
fascination with celebrity surrogacy.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
But first me, in case you missed it, as we
came in to record the super Bowl is on, I'm
very excited because I want to bet with my friend
who was absolutely adamant that Blake Lively would accompany Taylor
into the box at the super Bowl like she did
last year. Oh no, I said, Tree Pain would never
(01:48):
allow it. Tree Pain iconic publicist, my Roman Empire, and
I was right.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So last year she was sitting next to Blake and
they were having drinks, having a great time, and you're light.
Tree was like that friendship is not for public consumption anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
We're not doing that this year because it would be
it would pull Taylor further into that narrative and it's
just not the time. I also would argue it wouldn't
be good for Blake at time.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Everybody is saying as we're recording this that the fact
that Taylor will white is a hidden message that she's
hoping he proposes at halftime, And apparently at they are
so on wedding watch and everyone was asking him, are
you going to propose at halftime? And he's like, wouldn't
you like to know?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
You?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Idiot didn't say no though.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Look, Travis Kelcey arrived wearing autumn colors. Someone got his
colours done, yep, and he's taking it very serious.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I swear you own that suit.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That outfit is. I'm going to describe it to you
out loud as it is a suit. But the jacket
goes down to his mid thigh and he's wearing a
shirt underneath. It's very sort of seventies. And then he's
got some black and white loafers and I think a broach.
I think he's wearing a couple of brooches actually in
some necklaces. He looks like he's walking down a catwalk.
He's also carrying a very expensive man bag, which is
(02:57):
probably like a Burkean or something. Anyway, the sport goes on.
It's a long game five hours.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, apparently there's a game and apparently if they win,
it'll be the third time so and.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Then aftime show this year Kendrin Lamar. He will probably
have a female guest with him because men ye.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And he's going to diss Drake. That's the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That's the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Donald Trump is there.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It's a little light on the goss so far. It's
my sports correspondent. You know that. You know the parade
where he's walking in in your suit. They all do that.
So all the guys are like dressed to the nines,
and I just want everybody to close their eyes and
imagine the AFL Grand Final starting like that. They have
to come in their suits when they get off the
bus in most games, but in America now they have
(03:39):
stylists for that. There's a lot of competition about who
gets to dress them, Who's got the biggest diamond earrings.
I'm just like, please, can we bring that here? I
want that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
They also get paid a lot from their labels to
where you know, it's a good money making thing. Taylor
is wearing long boots. I was you know how I
feel about the long boots. But around her neck remember
it the Grammys, she had on that thigh jewelry and
it had a little tea her lyric famously from who's
on guiltyes sin? What if he's written mine on my
(04:08):
upper thigh, shouldn't Yaki? So he's on her appathigh and
now he's around her neck, closer to her heart. This
is a true story based on a lie. Some names
have been changed to protect the innocent. Bel Gibson has
not been paid for the recreation of her story.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Fuckers, what's true, what's not? And how the hell did
all this happen? That's what everyone who is watching Apple's
Side of Vinegar is asking each other and the internet
right now, as a very Australian scammer story is smashing
the Netflix charts right around the world.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Have you two finished it?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I haven't finished it yet. I think I'm about to
go into episode five.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think I'm three episodes in and mayor you finished it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I inhaled it. I had a preview actually, so I
was very excited for everybody to catch up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Obviously, in this conversation, we will be talking about some
of the things that have happened in the show, So
if you're absolutely worried about spoilers, you might want to skip.
But we're not really going into spoilers about the show.
We're talking more about the story behind.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
And the real lives of the people that it's based on.
So it's sort of what's true and what's yes?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Because This six part drama is a fictionalized version of
a story that many Australians know well. That's that in
the early twenty teens, in the early days of blogs
and Instagram, the so called wellness warriors were in the ascendance.
Primary among them and well on her way to becoming
a wealthy celebrity, was Belle Gibson, a young mother from
(05:39):
Melbourne who had created an app called The Whole Pantry,
and it was like an esthetically pleasing collection of healthy recipes,
very typical of the vibe of the time, very appetizing
looking wellness bowls and smoothies and things.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Do you remember her at the time, Holly very well.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I remember this whole thing very well because we were
all just beginning to be obsessed with Instagram. It also
coincided with me coming to work on the internet, working
at MoMA Maya around this time, and we were all
very interested in this. The thing is is that although
the app looked really wholesome, like just healthy recipes, nice food,
(06:17):
the backstory was not. So Bell sold this Whole app
and how great it was and the cookbook that came
after and the awards that she won on the premise
that changing her lifestyle to a healthy organic diet and
various alternative treatment had cured her of brain cancer. So
by twenty fourteen she was winning awards and getting loads
(06:38):
of money for publishing deals around the world, not just
in Australia. And she had this massive groundbreaking partnership with
Apple to be one of the only apps loaded onto
the first version of the Apple Watch. So that's all true,
that all happened, right, And then just one year later,
so in twenty fifteen, two investigative reports in the Age
newspaper began to pull at the strings that brought her undone.
(06:59):
There was no proof that Gibson had ever had cancer.
Promised charitable payments to children's charities and other cancer charities
were never made, and the community of sufferers and survivors
who'd found hope in her story were left devastated. Ten
years and several court cases later, we have Apple Side
of Vinegar, a high production international hit that explores not
just Gibson's story, but another famous wellness warriors story.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
A woman in real life she's called jess ains Cough.
In the show, she's called Miller, And just like in
the show, she started off working in women's magazines and
Mia Jess was in your orbit. Tell me a bit
about your experiences around her. She was.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
This is and there are a lot of tragic elements
to this story and to this show, but this is
perhaps the most tragic, and I remember watching it happen
in real time at the time. So Jess started blogging
about her cancer. She had a type of cancer that
began as lumps in her arm, and she was advised
(08:03):
to have her unamputated. I knew her because she'd worked
in women's magazines. I'd left magazines by that time, but
we moved in similar circles. We had a lot of
people that we knew in common. It was quite controversial
at the time, but she chose, and of course still
would be now. But she chose not to have treatment,
not to follow the suggestions of the doctors and have
(08:25):
her arm amputated, and instead she decided to do something
that is called in the show hirsh therapy. In real life,
it's called Gerson therapy. And I had another friend who
was going through cancer at the time, and she was
more like the Lucy character in this She's a doctor actually,
but she was having Gerson therapy as well as having
(08:47):
chemo and other sort of conventional medicine treatment, and Jess didn't,
and she was blogging about the juices that she was
having in the coffee an.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
So Gerson therapy is about a more holistic approach. Is
it about sort of eating and.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Start using food to try and help your body cure itself.
And it's predicated on the idea that conventional treatment is
poison and your body knows how to get well, and
you just have to have this very intensive regimen of
fresh juices and coffee amas, like five a day and
you have to juice all through the day and.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well coffee ANDAs at the time like quite taboo and
unusual to hear someone talk about a coffee Yeah, because.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I see it everywhere now.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Well, people were having colonics back then, but having a
coffee enema was very specific and this was something that
you did at home, all of this sort of treatment.
And what was interesting about it is that it combined,
as Holly said, it was the beginning of Instagram, and
Instagram loved beautiful women, beautiful young women, and so yes,
(09:53):
it was this lifestyle that was this beautiful. Jess was gorgeous.
She lived by the beach in Queensland. She had this
very sort of aspirational lifestyle, which is what the algorithm
and Instagram is all about. And she had this seemingly
fantastic story about out using these natural remedies to cure herself.
(10:13):
Except she didn't cure herself. She died.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
What actually happened to her in real life because in
the show she does for a period seem to heal
herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in
real life?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have,
like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment
is not having scans, so you actually don't know and
as one of the characters in the show, her father
or her mother might actually say, if you're not having scans,
how do you know if it's working or not.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And in the show her mother gets cancer as well.
Is that what happened in real life?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It is? And it was so tragic watching it happen
in real time. You know, this is someone's cancer experience.
And this was before sort of Twitter and before you know,
Instagram was a pretty positive place and there wasn't a
lot of Internet critique around that time, which is why
probably Belle Gibson could get away with what with her
(11:13):
lives for so long. The tragedy was that just wasn't lying,
and towards the end, as was portrayal, I don't want
to sort of give away if you haven't watched, but
it was just absolutely tragic to watch it unfold in
real time. It was like watching a slow moving car accident.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So she lived for seven years right between the diagnosis
and her death, and that's the period that's being portrayed
in this show. And during that period is when she
became famous is probably the wrong word, but certainly in
those circles. Because to your question about coffee enemas and
juicing and all those things, of whether they were mainstream,
they weren't mainstream, right. So there's always been lots of
(11:50):
interesting alternative health therapies, and there's always been lots of
interesting diet being related to medicine. But as Mia described it,
the collision of those alternative therapies with Instagram at that
particular moment basically an unregulated wild West space that really
rewarded this esthetic. And I guess the question of why
is interesting and why is it dangerous is because it
(12:13):
pushed it out into the mainstream in a way that
it wasn't before.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, because it made it all look very pretty. It
made cancer and wellness and natural remedies. It's a lot
prettier than sitting in a hospital room with a canula
in your arm and getting chemo and having your hair
fall out and all of those things. So people wanted
to believe these stories, people with cancer and people without cancer.
(12:40):
And I actually wasn't aware of Belle Gibson. Jess came first.
Like Jess was famous, you know, within certain circles. She
was really well known. And the show depicts Belle noticing
this and wanting to co opt her story and seeing
the interest and the attention she got and wanting to
monetize that as well.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
What I've found fascinating is with the context of Baby Reindeer,
with knowing that this is also a Netflix production, you
can imagine that in the back of their minds as
they are editing this, that Baby Reindeer is probably the
shorthand for We have to be really careful because obviously
that was quite litigious. We spoke about it at length
(13:20):
last year. That was the Netflix show that said that
it was a true story and then of course he
represented his stalker, who had a striking resemblance to the
real life stalker. And then in the show there was
a criminal case, but that hadn't happened in real life,
and so that's where Netflix found themselves in a lot
of trial and.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
They're still being sued. I think, I think she's going
to win a lot of money. And the difference is
and it's interesting. When I watched this, I didn't realize
that Emil Sherman, my cousin, was the producer, and so
I called him up and I was like the baby
reindeer of it all, How did you do this? Because
in Apple Cider Vinegar, some of the characters are fictionalized,
like they don't call her jessayes Cough, they call her
(14:00):
Miller Blake. And yet they do call some characters the
real thing, like Bell Gibson is Bell Gibson, and her
partner Clive is called Clive. And there's a publisher who
published the book tried to Julie Gibbs. That's her real name.
So I was interested in that. And what happens at
the beginning of every episode is that they have a
character break the fourth wall. It's very effective and say
(14:23):
this is a true Ish story. Belle Gibson was not
paid for it, because that's the other thing. Nobody would
want her to make money. So I asked why they
fictionalized some and the reason that they did that is
because that then gave them a little bit more creative license.
But with certain things, they didn't have to be completely
true to the story of some of those characters. And
(14:44):
there was one character that was sort of pretty much
invented or an amalgam of people, which is the wife
of one of the investigative journalists. So in terms of
how Jess's family would feel about it, I can't begin
to imagine. Only her father is still alive. I believe
she has a brother as well, who's not depicted. She
had a fiancee who's just of course we went looking
(15:07):
for him. He's married and is about to become a
father or just has become a father. He's posted about
Jess a lot. He hasn't said anything about this show.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Everybody wants to know what happened to Bell Gibson. Right
if you look, people magazine in the US saw the U.
Because everybody's watching this, everybody's obsessed, and where is Bell
Gibson now is one of the hottest trending topics now.
The answer to that question is, nobody's really sure, because
she kind of bobbled back up into consciousness a couple
of years ago around some of the court cases about this,
and at the time it was rumored that she was
(15:39):
living in Melbourne had kind of become involved in the
Ethiopian community, and then that seemed like an interesting thing,
and then no one was really sure. She's alleged to
have separated from her partner who's depicted in the show.
But isn't there a chance, baby reindeer style that she
may come out?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So for her to come out, because I asked about this, it's.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Not necessarily sue, but talk.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, I think that will happen, and I think that
she'll be paid a lot of money. There's a lot
of money for her to take if she decides to
come out.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Well, you've been convicted in a court of law.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Sorry, she can't. I don't think she can sue because
to sue, you can only sue for defamation, and to
say that she was defamed, she'd have to prove that
she really did have brain cancer.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I thought that to make money, I thought you couldn't
make money off your crime.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But it depends a little bit because well, there are
technicalities there because she's been fined for various things, but
has she been convicted of a crime. Not necessarily, But anyway,
that's a loophole, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Because she was paid for that sixty minutes interview. She was.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But one of the things that I think is interesting
and why fictionalizing real people's lives is so fraught, is
when I was watching this show, in the scenes where
her character is depicted as a terrible mother, for example,
and like locking her kid in his room and all
those things, I found myself really defensive of her, which
is ridiculous when you consider what she has done and
the lives she is damaged. Because I was like, you
(16:58):
don't know if she did that, how do you have
any idea if she did that? And if that was
me and I was sitting in my hiding corner somewhere,
there would probably be plenty in this that would make
me want to go, I want to come out, especially
if I was associated.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, perhaps, And interestingly, early in the series particularly, I
have found myself empathizing with her and seeing her relationship
with her mother how she was an outcast her upbringing
and sort of not understanding. There was a great quote
from the writer who said that basically you can empathize
(17:31):
without absolving.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Absolutely, and in that way. There is a scene this
is the number one thing I've googled up until where
I've watched, which is whether she lost a baby, which
feels like the most awful thing to google, right, because
how horrific that you would ask if that was true.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
She's spoken about having a miscarriage, but what the show
portrays is that she had a very late miscarriage and
that the baby was still at.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Twenty four weeks.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
But then, of course you've set this character up who
is a pathological liar who uses her health to make money,
and we see her kind of that narrative is part
of what sells her products and so.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
But I think that's what's challenging about it and what
makes it just one of the best shows I've watched.
I think. Ever, when it was depicting her having that ultrasound,
I was expecting there to be no baby. You know,
we often say two things can be true. She can
be a compulsive liar, but also there can be damage,
like some of her stories were true, like perhaps her mother,
perhaps she did lose a baby.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
It's unclear, and I don't think it's as simple as
this one no villain, because I think that there must
be And I remember thinking this with the sixty minutes interview,
which is one of the most compelling, bizarre things I've
ever watched.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And no one's been able to wear a pink turtleneck
jumper since then, no.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
One's really wanted to.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
But I remember watching that and thinking that is a
woman in pain, like something has happened. You don't get
to that point without having experienced.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So the reason ump back to your question about will
she come out, the reason why I actually think she
probably won't is she's a shape shifter. We can't diagnoses,
but she clearly has a very complicated relationship with reality
and the truth. And what we saw in that sixty
minutes interview and what we see through the show is
this portrayal that she can't hope when she's confronted by
(19:23):
the truth, she's slippery. So to come out, I don't
think she's going to be like, yeah, so I did
make it up and here's what happened. Like even in
that sixty minutes interview, she kept maintaining, no, there was
this doctor and he put a box under my chair,
and I did think I had cancer. She's so slippery,
So I don't think she will come out. Will she
end up on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here?
Or Dancing with the Stars?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Maybe my gosh, I wonder. I also think what this
show does very well is presents the complexity of these
issues because through the fictionalized character of Lucy, through Miller's experiences,
that you absolutely understand and wrestle with these really chunky
issues about well, who does get to decide what happens
to your body when you are this sick? What does
(20:05):
it feel like to watch somebody that you love suffering
so much? How do you make those decisions? And I
find all those questions just so interesting to grapple with,
and it doesn't kind of airbrush over them or make
them seem easy or binary.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I think what was different with Jess is that there's
her choices, which is one thing, but she was very evangelical.
She was very urging people and is depicted in the show,
including people in her family, to adopt these same messages,
and she was spreading the word. She thought she was
doing the right thing. Tragically she wasn't.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
After the break, why two hundred psychiatrists submitted their resignations
in just one state last year, You might have seen
the news towards the end of last year that two
hundred psychiatrists in New South Wales submitted their resignations from
(21:00):
the public health system. There have been headlines about pay disputes,
about the ratio being one psychiatrist to five hundred patients, wow,
about a chronic shortage nationwide some states are worse than others,
and about patients with severe mental health conditions waiting an
emergency for a mental health bed for up to eighty
(21:21):
eight hours.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm sure there'll be a lot about louders listening to
this nodding their heads off, having experienced it with either
themselves or family members.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Or working in this sector. Winnow, there are a lot
of out louders who have been sending us these stories.
I'm going to give a quick overview of what's actually
happening in New South Wales right now. Because the New
South Wales government made the decision to pay the states
psychiatrists around thirty percent less than their counterparts in other states.
Meaning many professionals have just gone to work in other states.
(21:51):
In Wa, for example, psychiatrists in public hospitals are paid
double what they are in New South Wales. This has
caused a mass exodus. And if those two hundred psychiatrists
who have submitted their resignations do leave because a few
of them were kind of pulled back and it's been
a bit complicated, that will leave just ninety two specialists
managing the entire system. But this story isn't just about
(22:14):
New South Wales. I want to zoom out because it
is about a collapsing already broken system. And this is
as you say, Maya. If you or someone you love
has needed to see a psychiatrist just about anywhere in
Australia in the last few years, you will know about
the weight times. I have a friend in WA who
the wait time was eight months. I have friends in
(22:36):
Queensland who it's six months. Like it can be is,
it can be a really long time.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
And usually by the time you need a psychiatrist you
are in crisis.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yes, so thirty eight percent of GP consultations in a
typical week have a mental health component. Thirty eight percent.
Since COVID, the number of people needing care has gone up,
and in the last two decades, youth mental health issues
have increased by fifty percent. Now I didn't know this.
If you're in hospital, let's say you need an organ
(23:07):
transplant or something, you need to see a psychiatrist. They
need to do an assessment on you, right to the
person who's getting to transplanted to the person who's doing it.
If you are undergoing cancer treatment, some of those treatments
have mental health side effects, and it's really important that
you work with a psychiatrist. So psychiatrists don't just work
in the mental health would they have these effects all over.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
If you're diagnosed with ADHD and you need medication, you
need to see a psychiatrist, and you need to see
that psychiatrist at least once a year just to get
your scripts. Yeah, fil yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I needed to see a psychiatrist during pregnancy because of
the complication of medication while on that and most expensive
specialist apoinment I've ever had, but really hard to get in.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Most people don't realize that. They think that your GP
can prescribe most things, but there are certain drugs in
certain situations where they just can't.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah, yeah, and as you say, you often need them urgently.
The current workforce in Australia, the current psychiatrist workforce meets
fifty six percent of current national demand. So this is
why if you know anyone who works in mental health,
who works in emergency, who is a paramedic, they will
tell you that it is the mental health crises that
(24:19):
are crippling them. So the remaining psychiatrists are stretching themselves
to do the work of those who have left, and
so the burnout is just unbelievable. There is a great
episode of The Quickie where a trainee talks about something
called moral injury, which means that if you go into
a profession where you want to help and you want
(24:41):
to improve the mental health of Australians and the system
means that you can't, that does something to you, like psychologically,
and so they're watching people who are coming in. I
was speaking to a psychologist recently who are saying that
if you're submitted to a mental health water, if you
can even get a bed, then they basically are looking
(25:01):
at the most high risk. So we want to prevent
people from hurting themselves, but it can actually be more
traumatic being in there and then the second that you're
slightly less of a risk that someone needs the bed more,
they send you back out and it's a revolving door,
so you're just going back in and back in and
back in, and you've got these acute crises.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Presumably, if Australia's demand for mental health assistance is increasing exponentially,
presumably that's also the case in other places. So who's
got the answers and what do we do?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So a lot of it has to do with funding
and a lot of it has to do with early intervention.
This is not just Australia who's having this crisis. I
know that for example, in the UK it's a crisis
at the moment. And the fact that in order to
be a psychiatrist, even to be a psychologist, the amount
of training that people need.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
The need a full medical degree to be fourteen.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Years of training and then you want to cut their like, So.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Isn't just part of the problem, and I know you're not,
like the health minister, but isn't also part of the
problem supply and demand, Like there's just not this replenishing
pipeline of people going you know what, I want to
be a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
That is part of it, and that the supply has
increased enormously and that not only do we not have
the same amount of psychiatrists, they're going down.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And if you need a fourteen year lead time in
your pipeline, we needed to be encouraging people to become
psychiatrists a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Some people are suggesting it should be easier to become one.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yes, and that counselors, for example, if you subsidize counselors
through Medicare, then they can do the work of the
more early intervention stages. Because I read this great substack
by a woman named Elena Velanicus, and she works in
mental health, and she was saying, firstly, you don't get
the ten sessions for free.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Everyone knows that.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Now, what do you mean Because I did get ten
sessions for free too through my GP years ago. Yeah, absolutely,
years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Okay, so this is the new thing that if you
get I.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Got put in a mental health plan. That's how most
people I know first get to see a counselor their
mental health plan.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
So the way that it works is you get those
ten sessions and they are subsidized. But because of the
costs of operating of admin of all of that, the
gap exactly the same as with your local GP. The
gap has blown out, so you're still paying one hundred
two hundred dollars for every session, which isn't possible for
most young people ABS. And that's where all the issues
(27:21):
are starting. So they're going we need to do something
with young people, which might be counselors that they can afford,
early intervention, more long term, better retention, better funding. That's
going to be a big thing, I think with the
budget and you know, even in the next election. But
obviously there needs to be more psychiatrist trained. That's the
other thing. But that's going to take funding as well
(27:42):
to kind of encourage that next level.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
After the break, we are unpacking a new Hollywood trend
for lifestyle surrogusie.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
When a baby is born, the correct response is what
beautiful news, unless it is twenty twenty five and the
mother of that baby is a celebrity who used a surrogate,
in which case that new mother gets attacked by strangers
for the way her baby came into the world. Welcome
to Lily Colin's life. She is the star of Emiline Paris.
She's the daughter of Phil Collins, and she posted a
(28:36):
picture of her new daughter Tove a couple of weeks
ago in a little basket, under which she expressed in
the caption her endless gratitude for our incredible surrogate. Now
I know you'll be shocked to hear that. Reaction was mixed.
It split along pretty predictable lines. Those in favor of
surrogacy and the life changing opportunities that it brings for
(28:59):
people to become parents, so they are along the lines
of congratulations, beautiful news comments. There were also those who
accused Lily and her husband, Colin MacDowell of contributing to
an unethical trend of lifestyle sarrogacy, or as it's sometimes called,
vanity sarrogacy, and normalizing commercial surrogacy, while others speculated about
(29:21):
why she might need a surrogate in the first place.
What we don't want to do today is to make
assumptions about why any specific women, including Lily Collins, choose
to use a surrogate because every woman, even famous ones,
has the right to medical privacy. And we know that
we have out louders who have used surrogates and who
have been surrogates, and we wouldn't want to make any
(29:44):
of you feel attacked for your choices. I was walking
down the street the other day. I walked past a
cafe and a woman called out to me and just
said I love the show. And I said, oh, congratulations.
She had a tiny little baby in a baby born
in front of her and I said, congratulations on your baby,
and she said, yeah to sarrogate. I said how old
are they and she said, oh, to surrogate, but like
(30:04):
four months. And I said to her, I was really
struck by. She was almost apologized, and I said to her.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Why are you telling me?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Why that I feel less of a mother? But clearly
she felt self conscious about it, and that made me
feel really sad. So again, we don't want to sort
of talk about any specific women, but it is hard
to ignore the dramatic rise in the use of surrogates
among famous women over the last decade. And like I guess,
(30:32):
any trend relating to women, it's worth unpacking some of
the big feelings that people have about this issue. A
little bit of context. Sarrogus is legal in Australia only
in altruistic circumstances, so that means you can't get paid
for it, but in America it's legal for pretty much
any use case. The baseline compensation is around one hundred
(30:54):
thousand dollars plus endless benefits. They could be wardrobe allowances, food,
you know, the sky's the limit. I guess.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
So I was reading and I think this is what's ignited.
The discussion is that a disproportionate amount of rich, famous
women are choosing surrogacy right and again we do not
know why, but some examples.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Although also we hear about those, we don't know how
many like high flan attorneys or whatever point so using it.
In America.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Sarah Jeska Parker, Nicole Kidman, Paris Hilton Grimes, Chloe and
Kim Kardashian, Prank Chopra, Rebel Wilson, Lucy loun Naomi Campbell
have all reportedly used a surrogate. And of course there's
lots of reasons. There are health reasons. Some women are
unable to carry the pregnancy. Obviously a same sex male
(31:43):
couple or a single male who wants to have a child.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yes, So Elton, John, Ricky Martin, Neil, Patrick Harris, they've
all used surrogates to become parents because there is no
uterus in those couples.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
In LA, there are surrogacy concierges, surrogacy attorneys. Every agreement
you can set up is different. So I've heard the
Kardashians talking about it a lot. Kim Kardashian says, you know,
the key to it is to make sure all the
expectations are upfront, so they negotiate out things like is
my carrier allowed to eat non organic food? Courtney Kardashian
(32:15):
thought that it should be in their contract what television
the carrier was allowed to watch. But Kim thought that
was a little step too far. But there's a whole
industry in places like LA that connect you know, the
people who can pay for that kind of level of
control with their gestational carrier.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, it's an industry.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
As you say, different reasons. So Keem and Chloe have
been very upfront about the medical reasons. Paris Hilton was
very upfront about saying she was just absolutely petrified of
giving birth and pregnancy, and so for her it was
a mental health choice.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
I have to be completely honest, I find the discussion
of surrogacy and celebrity particularly really uncomfortable. Lily Collins, do
what you like. I don't have an issue with that
as a standalone case, but looking at surrogacy should hear
and the normalizing of it.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Among a particular killer class.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Well, it's rich people, because rich rich people to outsource things.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
And it's been a thorny feminist discussion for a long time,
Like I know that in Britain, for example, in this
Guardian article I was reading, it was saying that parents
are increasingly turning to commercial surrogates in countries that you
know live in poverty, and so the cost of a
surrogate in India is not the same as the cost
of a surrogate somewhere else in the world. And a
(33:36):
lot of feminists also you hear terms like rent a
womb or feeling as though you're paying for access to
a woman's body for nine months. The other question is
what if that woman who is carrying the baby develops
a connection to that baby, what rights does she have
on on the other side, can promises be made to
that woman that aren't kept.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
But we should explain a bit what the ethical concerns are, right,
because broadly it is that a sort of almost underclass
of women are being paid to take the physical risks pregnancy.
That's the not of the concerns.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Concerns is that you can get and there are cases.
There was a case in Japan of a man who
wanted sixteen children and paid all of these surrogacies in
different countries where they might have no other option to
make money and they take these enormous health risks, and
then you know, words like human trafficking come up because
these women have absolutely no rights. You know, it can
(34:34):
be seen as exploitation. And the concerns are that it
would be a class of people. I've seen it referred
to as luxury childbirth because we know that pregnancy and
birth is a health risk for anyone. So if that
then becomes outsourced to women who made the money are
(34:54):
desperate and in Australia it's very different to be clear, yes,
but in the UK, yeah, if that then becomes normalized
and that's something that we're all doing when we.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
What if it's your only way to become a parent.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Well, then I think that that's different. Exactly the same
with a sister dying. If you come with a nineteen
year old who's perfectly healthy, who says I want a
sister dying, I have an issue with that. If you
are someone who is ninety three and you have no
quality of life and you say I want a sister dying,
I'm like, great, I'd think.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So much similar to the debate around if you can
select gender for medical reasons, then why can't you do
it for lifestyle reasons?
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Well, I don't know if it is like that.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, I suppose it is right when we're talking about
ethical moral when technology or when new systems, who gets
to dispatility exactly kind of intersect with you know, a
natural process, which I know that we've been doing this.
There have been versions of this forever. And people I
know who used a surrogate, they are brilliant parents and
(35:57):
they have the most beautiful kids and the most beautiful family,
and I can't imagine things without it. And I'm thinking,
for example, of gay couples who couldn't have done it otherwise,
And I have such respect for that decision.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
But if you're scared of child. I struggle, I really struggle.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So I mean I understand and I do understand the
ethical questions, and it is very often the fact that
more vulnerable women are being paid for this probably not
to be honest, in the cases of the Kardashians and
the Lily Collins, those people are probably being paid extremely
well right for what they're doing, and they probably have
all the choices in the world. And as part of
(36:33):
the surrogacy, concierge attorney model I was talking about before,
you can literally choose. You can flip through a book
and choose, and there's competition to be a surrogate. So
this all really comes down to supply and demand, right
to capitalism Jesse as we would probably put it in
that I personally think that Australia and Britain and many
countries like it probably have the right model where it's
(36:56):
legal and it's accessible, but you can't do it for profit.
But then some states have different regulations. They say you
do have to prove that you can't have a child
of your own, and I think that's tricky because that
isn't always a black and white. Some people can carry babies,
but they can't necessarily give birth to babies. There are
lots of different situations, and I guess my discomfort with
(37:17):
the judgment comes back to that lady who stopped you
on the street. Mia is that when Lily Collins announces
that she's had a baby, and the first thing everybody
does is sneer about, well, she didn't even want to
get pregnant, when we have no idea about her personal circumstances.
The person we're really hurting is that lady, the lady
on the street who stopped me and felt the need
to kind of say, oh, she's a surrogate, Like I
(37:39):
think that with that brush we tame everything, and it's
a much more complicated person.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
So how is a society do we discuss an issue.
It's kind of like the botox thing, right or the surgery.
So we don't want to attack a specific woman for
her choices, but if a whole lot of people are
doing the same thing, Like, at what point do we say, hey,
is this what we're doing now? If we want to
not you know, interrupt our career, or if we're just
(38:06):
scared of the pain.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of childbirth, or or we can't afford a career, we kind.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Of afford a kree bake, or we just we don't
want to have the disruption to our weight and our body.
It's the disconnect with everyone going, oh wait, is that
what we're doing now? Because I hadn't caught up.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Lucy Lou spoke about her decision and said it wasn't
driven by any medical needs. She said it just seemed
like the right option for me because I was working
and I didn't know when I was going to be
able to stop. Like this is just going to widen
the demand between the rich and poor, which is already
getting wider and wider. But if you feel like your
job doesn't allow you to slow down for nine months
(38:43):
or whatever to go and have that baby, I mean, firstly,
women are doing it every day and you read a
statement like that and you go.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Well, everyone else's career has to stop for five minutes.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
That I think that's part of the pushback is the
women who've had babies and go, well, I had to
do it, elephant in the room. Have you watched any
red carpets lately? Have you looked at awards seasons? The
pressure on women in Hollywood to be thin, no matter
how old they are, no matter how many children they've
had is insane. Well, and to say that that is
(39:13):
not a contributing factor is crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
But a lot of those women have had children, you
know what I mean. Like again, in Hollywood, you can
have a million and a lot of them.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
What happened to Kim Kardashi in when she was pregnant,
She has a couch, she has fat change, She was
compared to a killer whale.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Pregnancy and birth is something that Hollywood doesn't do. I
think that's a problem exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And if it's something that isn't considered attractive enough to
be done by these women who earn a living by
being actresses and famous.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Or the other thing that I read in a report
that's unsubstantiated, but it was in a report that said
there's been theories that for some of the women, in
order to be in Hollywood, you need to have such
low body fat that it is not possible for you
to carry a r chipe.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
And so there's that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Element, which is an industry that needs examining rather than.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I guess a lot of my discomfort with this, though,
is that we are really speculating, making a lot of
assumptions about why these women are making these choices, and
I don't think that the Lily Collins is unless they
want to in the way that Paris Hilton has discussed it,
Lucy lou has discussed it. I don't think they owe
us any explanations. I think that so her husband just
(40:25):
after they had their baby and they posted and everybody
came for them. He said, in regards to the unkind
messages about surrogacy and our path to having a baby,
It's okay not to be an expert on surrogacy. It's
okay to not know why someone else might need a
surrogate to have a child. It's okay to not know
the motivations of a surrogate, regardless of what you assume.
And I absolutely agree with that. I don't think we
have a right to know every woman's medical records, and personally,
(40:48):
I think Australia and Britain and places where surrogacy is
tightly regulated have got it about right. But America, they
turn over a whole lot of important health things to
the private sector. That's the way they roll, and this
is just another one.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I think there's going to be inevitable questions when people
say here's my baby and they weren't pregnant.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
And one thing we should say, we are all mothers
of children. So yes, we are speaking from a perspective
of privilege. And if you are suffering from infertility and
sarrogacy or the potential of sarrogacy is your only way
of becoming a mother, I can get why this is
a really hard conversation for you to listen to.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Massive thank you out louders for being with us here
this Super Bowl Monday, and to our fabulous team for
putting this show together. I know you're as excited as
we are. Who wins this funny game between a sparrow
and an eagle or something. Anyway, we'll be back in
your ears tomorrow. Goodbye.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If
you love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
What actually happened to her in real life, because in
the show she does for a period seem to heal
herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in
real life?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah? Well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have,
like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment
is not having scans. If you're not having scans, how
do you know if it's working or not.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Monday the tenth of February.
I'm Hollywayne, right.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I'm Meya Friedman and I'm Jesse Stephens.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
And on today's show, the world is watching one of
Australia's best known scammers stories when folding on the Netflix
show Apple Side of Vinegar. So what's true and what's
not about Bell Gibson and the rise of the wellness Warriors. Also,
you might have heard that Australian psychiatrists are quitting en
mass So what's going on with our mental health crisis?
(01:18):
And a very famous actress became a mother last month,
and the world is obsessed with how we're unpacking the
fascination with celebrity surrogacy.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
But first me, in case you missed it, as we
came in to record the super Bowl is on, I'm
very excited because I want to bet with my friend
who was absolutely adamant that Blake Lively would accompany Taylor
into the box at the super Bowl like she did
last year. Oh no, I said, Tree Pain would never
(01:48):
allow it. Tree Pain iconic publicist, my Roman Empire, and
I was right.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So last year she was sitting next to Blake and
they were having drinks, having a great time, and you're light.
Tree was like that friendship is not for public consumption anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
We're not doing that this year because it would be
it would pull Taylor further into that narrative and it's
just not the time. I also would argue it wouldn't
be good for Blake at time.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Everybody is saying as we're recording this that the fact
that Taylor will white is a hidden message that she's
hoping he proposes at halftime, And apparently at they are
so on wedding watch and everyone was asking him, are
you going to propose at halftime? And he's like, wouldn't
you like to know?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
You?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Idiot didn't say no though.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Look, Travis Kelcey arrived wearing autumn colors. Someone got his
colours done, yep, and he's taking it very serious.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I swear you own that suit.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That outfit is. I'm going to describe it to you
out loud as it is a suit. But the jacket
goes down to his mid thigh and he's wearing a
shirt underneath. It's very sort of seventies. And then he's
got some black and white loafers and I think a broach.
I think he's wearing a couple of brooches actually in
some necklaces. He looks like he's walking down a catwalk.
He's also carrying a very expensive man bag, which is
(02:57):
probably like a Burkean or something. Anyway, the sport goes on.
It's a long game five hours.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Yeah, apparently there's a game and apparently if they win,
it'll be the third time so and.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Then aftime show this year Kendrin Lamar. He will probably
have a female guest with him because men ye.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And he's going to diss Drake. That's the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That's the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Donald Trump is there.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It's a little light on the goss so far. It's
my sports correspondent. You know that. You know the parade
where he's walking in in your suit. They all do that.
So all the guys are like dressed to the nines,
and I just want everybody to close their eyes and
imagine the AFL Grand Final starting like that. They have
to come in their suits when they get off the
bus in most games, but in America now they have
(03:39):
stylists for that. There's a lot of competition about who
gets to dress them, Who's got the biggest diamond earrings.
I'm just like, please, can we bring that here? I
want that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
They also get paid a lot from their labels to
where you know, it's a good money making thing. Taylor
is wearing long boots. I was you know how I
feel about the long boots. But around her neck remember
it the Grammys, she had on that thigh jewelry and
it had a little tea her lyric famously from who's
on guiltyes sin? What if he's written mine on my
(04:08):
upper thigh, shouldn't Yaki? So he's on her appathigh and
now he's around her neck, closer to her heart. This
is a true story based on a lie. Some names
have been changed to protect the innocent. Bel Gibson has
not been paid for the recreation of her story.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Fuckers, what's true, what's not? And how the hell did
all this happen? That's what everyone who is watching Apple's
Side of Vinegar is asking each other and the internet
right now, as a very Australian scammer story is smashing
the Netflix charts right around the world.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Have you two finished it?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I haven't finished it yet. I think I'm about to
go into episode five.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think I'm three episodes in and mayor you finished it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I inhaled it. I had a preview actually, so I
was very excited for everybody to catch up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Obviously, in this conversation, we will be talking about some
of the things that have happened in the show, So
if you're absolutely worried about spoilers, you might want to skip.
But we're not really going into spoilers about the show.
We're talking more about the story behind.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
And the real lives of the people that it's based on.
So it's sort of what's true and what's yes?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Because This six part drama is a fictionalized version of
a story that many Australians know well. That's that in
the early twenty teens, in the early days of blogs
and Instagram, the so called wellness warriors were in the ascendance.
Primary among them and well on her way to becoming
a wealthy celebrity, was Belle Gibson, a young mother from
(05:39):
Melbourne who had created an app called The Whole Pantry,
and it was like an esthetically pleasing collection of healthy recipes,
very typical of the vibe of the time, very appetizing
looking wellness bowls and smoothies and things.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Do you remember her at the time, Holly very well.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I remember this whole thing very well because we were
all just beginning to be obsessed with Instagram. It also
coincided with me coming to work on the internet, working
at MoMA Maya around this time, and we were all
very interested in this. The thing is is that although
the app looked really wholesome, like just healthy recipes, nice food,
(06:17):
the backstory was not. So Bell sold this Whole app
and how great it was and the cookbook that came
after and the awards that she won on the premise
that changing her lifestyle to a healthy organic diet and
various alternative treatment had cured her of brain cancer. So
by twenty fourteen she was winning awards and getting loads
(06:38):
of money for publishing deals around the world, not just
in Australia. And she had this massive groundbreaking partnership with
Apple to be one of the only apps loaded onto
the first version of the Apple Watch. So that's all true,
that all happened, right, And then just one year later,
so in twenty fifteen, two investigative reports in the Age
newspaper began to pull at the strings that brought her undone.
(06:59):
There was no proof that Gibson had ever had cancer.
Promised charitable payments to children's charities and other cancer charities
were never made, and the community of sufferers and survivors
who'd found hope in her story were left devastated. Ten
years and several court cases later, we have Apple Side
of Vinegar, a high production international hit that explores not
just Gibson's story, but another famous wellness warriors story.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
A woman in real life she's called jess ains Cough.
In the show, she's called Miller, And just like in
the show, she started off working in women's magazines and
Mia Jess was in your orbit. Tell me a bit
about your experiences around her. She was.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
This is and there are a lot of tragic elements
to this story and to this show, but this is
perhaps the most tragic, and I remember watching it happen
in real time at the time. So Jess started blogging
about her cancer. She had a type of cancer that
began as lumps in her arm, and she was advised
(08:03):
to have her unamputated. I knew her because she'd worked
in women's magazines. I'd left magazines by that time, but
we moved in similar circles. We had a lot of
people that we knew in common. It was quite controversial
at the time, but she chose, and of course still
would be now. But she chose not to have treatment,
not to follow the suggestions of the doctors and have
(08:25):
her arm amputated, and instead she decided to do something
that is called in the show hirsh therapy. In real life,
it's called Gerson therapy. And I had another friend who
was going through cancer at the time, and she was
more like the Lucy character in this She's a doctor actually,
but she was having Gerson therapy as well as having
(08:47):
chemo and other sort of conventional medicine treatment, and Jess didn't,
and she was blogging about the juices that she was
having in the coffee an.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
So Gerson therapy is about a more holistic approach. Is
it about sort of eating and.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Start using food to try and help your body cure itself.
And it's predicated on the idea that conventional treatment is
poison and your body knows how to get well, and
you just have to have this very intensive regimen of
fresh juices and coffee amas, like five a day and
you have to juice all through the day and.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well coffee ANDAs at the time like quite taboo and
unusual to hear someone talk about a coffee Yeah, because.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
I see it everywhere now.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Well, people were having colonics back then, but having a
coffee enema was very specific and this was something that
you did at home, all of this sort of treatment.
And what was interesting about it is that it combined,
as Holly said, it was the beginning of Instagram, and
Instagram loved beautiful women, beautiful young women, and so yes,
(09:53):
it was this lifestyle that was this beautiful. Jess was gorgeous.
She lived by the beach in Queensland. She had this
very sort of aspirational lifestyle, which is what the algorithm
and Instagram is all about. And she had this seemingly
fantastic story about out using these natural remedies to cure herself.
(10:13):
Except she didn't cure herself. She died.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
What actually happened to her in real life because in
the show she does for a period seem to heal
herself and then it reappears. Is that what happened in
real life?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, well, because she had medical treatment she agreed to have,
like a very minor procedure, and part of this treatment
is not having scans, so you actually don't know and
as one of the characters in the show, her father
or her mother might actually say, if you're not having scans,
how do you know if it's working or not.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And in the show her mother gets cancer as well.
Is that what happened in real life?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It is? And it was so tragic watching it happen
in real time. You know, this is someone's cancer experience.
And this was before sort of Twitter and before you know,
Instagram was a pretty positive place and there wasn't a
lot of Internet critique around that time, which is why
probably Belle Gibson could get away with what with her
(11:13):
lives for so long. The tragedy was that just wasn't lying,
and towards the end, as was portrayal, I don't want
to sort of give away if you haven't watched, but
it was just absolutely tragic to watch it unfold in
real time. It was like watching a slow moving car accident.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So she lived for seven years right between the diagnosis
and her death, and that's the period that's being portrayed
in this show. And during that period is when she
became famous is probably the wrong word, but certainly in
those circles. Because to your question about coffee enemas and
juicing and all those things, of whether they were mainstream,
they weren't mainstream, right. So there's always been lots of
(11:50):
interesting alternative health therapies, and there's always been lots of
interesting diet being related to medicine. But as Mia described it,
the collision of those alternative therapies with Instagram at that
particular moment basically an unregulated wild West space that really
rewarded this esthetic. And I guess the question of why
is interesting and why is it dangerous is because it
(12:13):
pushed it out into the mainstream in a way that
it wasn't before.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, because it made it all look very pretty. It
made cancer and wellness and natural remedies. It's a lot
prettier than sitting in a hospital room with a canula
in your arm and getting chemo and having your hair
fall out and all of those things. So people wanted
to believe these stories, people with cancer and people without cancer.
(12:40):
And I actually wasn't aware of Belle Gibson. Jess came first.
Like Jess was famous, you know, within certain circles. She
was really well known. And the show depicts Belle noticing
this and wanting to co opt her story and seeing
the interest and the attention she got and wanting to
monetize that as well.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
What I've found fascinating is with the context of Baby Reindeer,
with knowing that this is also a Netflix production, you
can imagine that in the back of their minds as
they are editing this, that Baby Reindeer is probably the
shorthand for We have to be really careful because obviously
that was quite litigious. We spoke about it at length
(13:20):
last year. That was the Netflix show that said that
it was a true story and then of course he
represented his stalker, who had a striking resemblance to the
real life stalker. And then in the show there was
a criminal case, but that hadn't happened in real life,
and so that's where Netflix found themselves in a lot
of trial and.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
They're still being sued. I think, I think she's going
to win a lot of money. And the difference is
and it's interesting. When I watched this, I didn't realize
that Emil Sherman, my cousin, was the producer, and so
I called him up and I was like the baby
reindeer of it all, How did you do this? Because
in Apple Cider Vinegar, some of the characters are fictionalized,
like they don't call her jessayes Cough, they call her
(14:00):
Miller Blake. And yet they do call some characters the
real thing, like Bell Gibson is Bell Gibson, and her
partner Clive is called Clive. And there's a publisher who
published the book tried to Julie Gibbs. That's her real name.
So I was interested in that. And what happens at
the beginning of every episode is that they have a
character break the fourth wall. It's very effective and say
(14:23):
this is a true Ish story. Belle Gibson was not
paid for it, because that's the other thing. Nobody would
want her to make money. So I asked why they
fictionalized some and the reason that they did that is
because that then gave them a little bit more creative license.
But with certain things, they didn't have to be completely
true to the story of some of those characters. And
(14:44):
there was one character that was sort of pretty much
invented or an amalgam of people, which is the wife
of one of the investigative journalists. So in terms of
how Jess's family would feel about it, I can't begin
to imagine. Only her father is still alive. I believe
she has a brother as well, who's not depicted. She
had a fiancee who's just of course we went looking
(15:07):
for him. He's married and is about to become a
father or just has become a father. He's posted about
Jess a lot. He hasn't said anything about this show.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Everybody wants to know what happened to Bell Gibson. Right
if you look, people magazine in the US saw the U.
Because everybody's watching this, everybody's obsessed, and where is Bell
Gibson now is one of the hottest trending topics now.
The answer to that question is, nobody's really sure, because
she kind of bobbled back up into consciousness a couple
of years ago around some of the court cases about this,
and at the time it was rumored that she was
(15:39):
living in Melbourne had kind of become involved in the
Ethiopian community, and then that seemed like an interesting thing,
and then no one was really sure. She's alleged to
have separated from her partner who's depicted in the show.
But isn't there a chance, baby reindeer style that she
may come out?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So for her to come out, because I asked about this, it's.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Not necessarily sue, but talk.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, I think that will happen, and I think that
she'll be paid a lot of money. There's a lot
of money for her to take if she decides to
come out.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Well, you've been convicted in a court of law.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Sorry, she can't. I don't think she can sue because
to sue, you can only sue for defamation, and to
say that she was defamed, she'd have to prove that
she really did have brain cancer.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I thought that to make money, I thought you couldn't
make money off your crime.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But it depends a little bit because well, there are
technicalities there because she's been fined for various things, but
has she been convicted of a crime. Not necessarily, But anyway,
that's a loophole, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Because she was paid for that sixty minutes interview. She was.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But one of the things that I think is interesting
and why fictionalizing real people's lives is so fraught, is
when I was watching this show, in the scenes where
her character is depicted as a terrible mother, for example,
and like locking her kid in his room and all
those things, I found myself really defensive of her, which
is ridiculous when you consider what she has done and
the lives she is damaged. Because I was like, you
(16:58):
don't know if she did that, how do you have
any idea if she did that? And if that was
me and I was sitting in my hiding corner somewhere,
there would probably be plenty in this that would make
me want to go, I want to come out, especially
if I was associated.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah, perhaps, And interestingly, early in the series particularly, I
have found myself empathizing with her and seeing her relationship
with her mother how she was an outcast her upbringing
and sort of not understanding. There was a great quote
from the writer who said that basically you can empathize
(17:31):
without absolving.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Absolutely, and in that way. There is a scene this
is the number one thing I've googled up until where
I've watched, which is whether she lost a baby, which
feels like the most awful thing to google, right, because
how horrific that you would ask if that was true.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
She's spoken about having a miscarriage, but what the show
portrays is that she had a very late miscarriage and
that the baby was still at.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Twenty four weeks.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
But then, of course you've set this character up who
is a pathological liar who uses her health to make money,
and we see her kind of that narrative is part
of what sells her products and so.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
But I think that's what's challenging about it and what
makes it just one of the best shows I've watched.
I think. Ever, when it was depicting her having that ultrasound,
I was expecting there to be no baby. You know,
we often say two things can be true. She can
be a compulsive liar, but also there can be damage,
like some of her stories were true, like perhaps her mother,
perhaps she did lose a baby.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
It's unclear, and I don't think it's as simple as
this one no villain, because I think that there must
be And I remember thinking this with the sixty minutes interview,
which is one of the most compelling, bizarre things I've
ever watched.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And no one's been able to wear a pink turtleneck
jumper since then, no.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
One's really wanted to.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
But I remember watching that and thinking that is a
woman in pain, like something has happened. You don't get
to that point without having experienced.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
So the reason ump back to your question about will
she come out, the reason why I actually think she
probably won't is she's a shape shifter. We can't diagnoses,
but she clearly has a very complicated relationship with reality
and the truth. And what we saw in that sixty
minutes interview and what we see through the show is
this portrayal that she can't hope when she's confronted by
(19:23):
the truth, she's slippery. So to come out, I don't
think she's going to be like, yeah, so I did
make it up and here's what happened. Like even in
that sixty minutes interview, she kept maintaining, no, there was
this doctor and he put a box under my chair,
and I did think I had cancer. She's so slippery,
So I don't think she will come out. Will she
end up on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here?
Or Dancing with the Stars?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Maybe my gosh, I wonder. I also think what this
show does very well is presents the complexity of these
issues because through the fictionalized character of Lucy, through Miller's experiences,
that you absolutely understand and wrestle with these really chunky
issues about well, who does get to decide what happens
to your body when you are this sick? What does
(20:05):
it feel like to watch somebody that you love suffering
so much? How do you make those decisions? And I
find all those questions just so interesting to grapple with,
and it doesn't kind of airbrush over them or make
them seem easy or binary.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I think what was different with Jess is that there's
her choices, which is one thing, but she was very evangelical.
She was very urging people and is depicted in the show,
including people in her family, to adopt these same messages,
and she was spreading the word. She thought she was
doing the right thing. Tragically she wasn't.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
After the break, why two hundred psychiatrists submitted their resignations
in just one state last year, You might have seen
the news towards the end of last year that two
hundred psychiatrists in New South Wales submitted their resignations from
(21:00):
the public health system. There have been headlines about pay disputes,
about the ratio being one psychiatrist to five hundred patients, wow,
about a chronic shortage nationwide some states are worse than others,
and about patients with severe mental health conditions waiting an
emergency for a mental health bed for up to eighty
(21:21):
eight hours.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I'm sure there'll be a lot about louders listening to
this nodding their heads off, having experienced it with either
themselves or family members.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Or working in this sector. Winnow, there are a lot
of out louders who have been sending us these stories.
I'm going to give a quick overview of what's actually
happening in New South Wales right now. Because the New
South Wales government made the decision to pay the states
psychiatrists around thirty percent less than their counterparts in other states.
Meaning many professionals have just gone to work in other states.
(21:51):
In Wa, for example, psychiatrists in public hospitals are paid
double what they are in New South Wales. This has
caused a mass exodus. And if those two hundred psychiatrists
who have submitted their resignations do leave because a few
of them were kind of pulled back and it's been
a bit complicated, that will leave just ninety two specialists
managing the entire system. But this story isn't just about
(22:14):
New South Wales. I want to zoom out because it
is about a collapsing already broken system. And this is
as you say, Maya. If you or someone you love
has needed to see a psychiatrist just about anywhere in
Australia in the last few years, you will know about
the weight times. I have a friend in WA who
the wait time was eight months. I have friends in
(22:36):
Queensland who it's six months. Like it can be is,
it can be a really long time.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
And usually by the time you need a psychiatrist you
are in crisis.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yes, so thirty eight percent of GP consultations in a
typical week have a mental health component. Thirty eight percent.
Since COVID, the number of people needing care has gone up,
and in the last two decades, youth mental health issues
have increased by fifty percent. Now I didn't know this.
If you're in hospital, let's say you need an organ
(23:07):
transplant or something, you need to see a psychiatrist. They
need to do an assessment on you, right to the
person who's getting to transplanted to the person who's doing it.
If you are undergoing cancer treatment, some of those treatments
have mental health side effects, and it's really important that
you work with a psychiatrist. So psychiatrists don't just work
in the mental health would they have these effects all over.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
If you're diagnosed with ADHD and you need medication, you
need to see a psychiatrist, and you need to see
that psychiatrist at least once a year just to get
your scripts. Yeah, fil yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I needed to see a psychiatrist during pregnancy because of
the complication of medication while on that and most expensive
specialist apoinment I've ever had, but really hard to get in.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Most people don't realize that. They think that your GP
can prescribe most things, but there are certain drugs in
certain situations where they just can't.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Yeah, yeah, and as you say, you often need them urgently.
The current workforce in Australia, the current psychiatrist workforce meets
fifty six percent of current national demand. So this is
why if you know anyone who works in mental health,
who works in emergency, who is a paramedic, they will
tell you that it is the mental health crises that
(24:19):
are crippling them. So the remaining psychiatrists are stretching themselves
to do the work of those who have left, and
so the burnout is just unbelievable. There is a great
episode of The Quickie where a trainee talks about something
called moral injury, which means that if you go into
a profession where you want to help and you want
(24:41):
to improve the mental health of Australians and the system
means that you can't, that does something to you, like psychologically,
and so they're watching people who are coming in. I
was speaking to a psychologist recently who are saying that
if you're submitted to a mental health water, if you
can even get a bed, then they basically are looking
(25:01):
at the most high risk. So we want to prevent
people from hurting themselves, but it can actually be more
traumatic being in there and then the second that you're
slightly less of a risk that someone needs the bed more,
they send you back out and it's a revolving door,
so you're just going back in and back in and
back in, and you've got these acute crises.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Presumably, if Australia's demand for mental health assistance is increasing exponentially,
presumably that's also the case in other places. So who's
got the answers and what do we do?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So a lot of it has to do with funding
and a lot of it has to do with early intervention.
This is not just Australia who's having this crisis. I
know that for example, in the UK it's a crisis
at the moment. And the fact that in order to
be a psychiatrist, even to be a psychologist, the amount
of training that people need.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
The need a full medical degree to be fourteen.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Years of training and then you want to cut their like, So.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Isn't just part of the problem, and I know you're not,
like the health minister, but isn't also part of the
problem supply and demand, Like there's just not this replenishing
pipeline of people going you know what, I want to
be a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
That is part of it, and that the supply has
increased enormously and that not only do we not have
the same amount of psychiatrists, they're going down.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And if you need a fourteen year lead time in
your pipeline, we needed to be encouraging people to become
psychiatrists a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Some people are suggesting it should be easier to become one.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yes, and that counselors, for example, if you subsidize counselors
through Medicare, then they can do the work of the
more early intervention stages. Because I read this great substack
by a woman named Elena Velanicus, and she works in
mental health, and she was saying, firstly, you don't get
the ten sessions for free.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Everyone knows that.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Now, what do you mean Because I did get ten
sessions for free too through my GP years ago. Yeah, absolutely,
years ago.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Okay, so this is the new thing that if you
get I.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Got put in a mental health plan. That's how most
people I know first get to see a counselor their
mental health plan.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
So the way that it works is you get those
ten sessions and they are subsidized. But because of the
costs of operating of admin of all of that, the
gap exactly the same as with your local GP. The
gap has blown out, so you're still paying one hundred
two hundred dollars for every session, which isn't possible for
most young people ABS. And that's where all the issues
(27:21):
are starting. So they're going we need to do something
with young people, which might be counselors that they can afford,
early intervention, more long term, better retention, better funding. That's
going to be a big thing, I think with the
budget and you know, even in the next election. But
obviously there needs to be more psychiatrist trained. That's the
other thing. But that's going to take funding as well
(27:42):
to kind of encourage that next level.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
After the break, we are unpacking a new Hollywood trend
for lifestyle surrogusie.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
When a baby is born, the correct response is what
beautiful news, unless it is twenty twenty five and the
mother of that baby is a celebrity who used a surrogate,
in which case that new mother gets attacked by strangers
for the way her baby came into the world. Welcome
to Lily Colin's life. She is the star of Emiline Paris.
She's the daughter of Phil Collins, and she posted a
(28:36):
picture of her new daughter Tove a couple of weeks
ago in a little basket, under which she expressed in
the caption her endless gratitude for our incredible surrogate. Now
I know you'll be shocked to hear that. Reaction was mixed.
It split along pretty predictable lines. Those in favor of
surrogacy and the life changing opportunities that it brings for
(28:59):
people to become parents, so they are along the lines
of congratulations, beautiful news comments. There were also those who
accused Lily and her husband, Colin MacDowell of contributing to
an unethical trend of lifestyle sarrogacy, or as it's sometimes called,
vanity sarrogacy, and normalizing commercial surrogacy, while others speculated about
(29:21):
why she might need a surrogate in the first place.
What we don't want to do today is to make
assumptions about why any specific women, including Lily Collins, choose
to use a surrogate because every woman, even famous ones,
has the right to medical privacy. And we know that
we have out louders who have used surrogates and who
have been surrogates, and we wouldn't want to make any
(29:44):
of you feel attacked for your choices. I was walking
down the street the other day. I walked past a
cafe and a woman called out to me and just
said I love the show. And I said, oh, congratulations.
She had a tiny little baby in a baby born
in front of her and I said, congratulations on your baby,
and she said, yeah to sarrogate. I said how old
are they and she said, oh, to surrogate, but like
(30:04):
four months. And I said to her, I was really
struck by. She was almost apologized, and I said to her.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Why are you telling me?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Why that I feel less of a mother? But clearly
she felt self conscious about it, and that made me
feel really sad. So again, we don't want to sort
of talk about any specific women, but it is hard
to ignore the dramatic rise in the use of surrogates
among famous women over the last decade. And like I guess,
(30:32):
any trend relating to women, it's worth unpacking some of
the big feelings that people have about this issue. A
little bit of context. Sarrogus is legal in Australia only
in altruistic circumstances, so that means you can't get paid
for it, but in America it's legal for pretty much
any use case. The baseline compensation is around one hundred
(30:54):
thousand dollars plus endless benefits. They could be wardrobe allowances, food,
you know, the sky's the limit. I guess.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
So I was reading and I think this is what's ignited.
The discussion is that a disproportionate amount of rich, famous
women are choosing surrogacy right and again we do not
know why, but some examples.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Although also we hear about those, we don't know how
many like high flan attorneys or whatever point so using it.
In America.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Sarah Jeska Parker, Nicole Kidman, Paris Hilton Grimes, Chloe and
Kim Kardashian, Prank Chopra, Rebel Wilson, Lucy loun Naomi Campbell
have all reportedly used a surrogate. And of course there's
lots of reasons. There are health reasons. Some women are
unable to carry the pregnancy. Obviously a same sex male
(31:43):
couple or a single male who wants to have a child.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yes, So Elton, John, Ricky Martin, Neil, Patrick Harris, they've
all used surrogates to become parents because there is no
uterus in those couples.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
In LA, there are surrogacy concierges, surrogacy attorneys. Every agreement
you can set up is different. So I've heard the
Kardashians talking about it a lot. Kim Kardashian says, you know,
the key to it is to make sure all the
expectations are upfront, so they negotiate out things like is
my carrier allowed to eat non organic food? Courtney Kardashian
(32:15):
thought that it should be in their contract what television
the carrier was allowed to watch. But Kim thought that
was a little step too far. But there's a whole
industry in places like LA that connect you know, the
people who can pay for that kind of level of
control with their gestational carrier.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, it's an industry.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
As you say, different reasons. So Keem and Chloe have
been very upfront about the medical reasons. Paris Hilton was
very upfront about saying she was just absolutely petrified of
giving birth and pregnancy, and so for her it was
a mental health choice.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
I have to be completely honest, I find the discussion
of surrogacy and celebrity particularly really uncomfortable. Lily Collins, do
what you like. I don't have an issue with that
as a standalone case, but looking at surrogacy should hear
and the normalizing of it.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Among a particular killer class.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Well, it's rich people, because rich rich people to outsource things.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
And it's been a thorny feminist discussion for a long time,
Like I know that in Britain, for example, in this
Guardian article I was reading, it was saying that parents
are increasingly turning to commercial surrogates in countries that you
know live in poverty, and so the cost of a
surrogate in India is not the same as the cost
of a surrogate somewhere else in the world. And a
(33:36):
lot of feminists also you hear terms like rent a
womb or feeling as though you're paying for access to
a woman's body for nine months. The other question is
what if that woman who is carrying the baby develops
a connection to that baby, what rights does she have
on on the other side, can promises be made to
that woman that aren't kept.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
But we should explain a bit what the ethical concerns are, right,
because broadly it is that a sort of almost underclass
of women are being paid to take the physical risks pregnancy.
That's the not of the concerns.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Concerns is that you can get and there are cases.
There was a case in Japan of a man who
wanted sixteen children and paid all of these surrogacies in
different countries where they might have no other option to
make money and they take these enormous health risks, and
then you know, words like human trafficking come up because
these women have absolutely no rights. You know, it can
(34:34):
be seen as exploitation. And the concerns are that it
would be a class of people. I've seen it referred
to as luxury childbirth because we know that pregnancy and
birth is a health risk for anyone. So if that
then becomes outsourced to women who made the money are
(34:54):
desperate and in Australia it's very different to be clear, yes,
but in the UK, yeah, if that then becomes normalized
and that's something that we're all doing when we.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
What if it's your only way to become a parent.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Well, then I think that that's different. Exactly the same
with a sister dying. If you come with a nineteen
year old who's perfectly healthy, who says I want a
sister dying, I have an issue with that. If you
are someone who is ninety three and you have no
quality of life and you say I want a sister dying,
I'm like, great, I'd think.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So much similar to the debate around if you can
select gender for medical reasons, then why can't you do
it for lifestyle reasons?
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Well, I don't know if it is like that.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yeah, I suppose it is right when we're talking about
ethical moral when technology or when new systems, who gets
to dispatility exactly kind of intersect with you know, a
natural process, which I know that we've been doing this.
There have been versions of this forever. And people I
know who used a surrogate, they are brilliant parents and
(35:57):
they have the most beautiful kids and the most beautiful family,
and I can't imagine things without it. And I'm thinking,
for example, of gay couples who couldn't have done it otherwise,
And I have such respect for that decision.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
But if you're scared of child. I struggle, I really struggle.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So I mean I understand and I do understand the
ethical questions, and it is very often the fact that
more vulnerable women are being paid for this probably not
to be honest, in the cases of the Kardashians and
the Lily Collins, those people are probably being paid extremely
well right for what they're doing, and they probably have
all the choices in the world. And as part of
(36:33):
the surrogacy, concierge attorney model I was talking about before,
you can literally choose. You can flip through a book
and choose, and there's competition to be a surrogate. So
this all really comes down to supply and demand, right
to capitalism Jesse as we would probably put it in
that I personally think that Australia and Britain and many
countries like it probably have the right model where it's
(36:56):
legal and it's accessible, but you can't do it for profit.
But then some states have different regulations. They say you
do have to prove that you can't have a child
of your own, and I think that's tricky because that
isn't always a black and white. Some people can carry babies,
but they can't necessarily give birth to babies. There are
lots of different situations, and I guess my discomfort with
(37:17):
the judgment comes back to that lady who stopped you
on the street. Mia is that when Lily Collins announces
that she's had a baby, and the first thing everybody
does is sneer about, well, she didn't even want to
get pregnant, when we have no idea about her personal circumstances.
The person we're really hurting is that lady, the lady
on the street who stopped me and felt the need
to kind of say, oh, she's a surrogate, Like I
(37:39):
think that with that brush we tame everything, and it's
a much more complicated person.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
So how is a society do we discuss an issue.
It's kind of like the botox thing, right or the surgery.
So we don't want to attack a specific woman for
her choices, but if a whole lot of people are
doing the same thing, Like, at what point do we say, hey,
is this what we're doing now? If we want to
not you know, interrupt our career, or if we're just
(38:06):
scared of the pain.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of childbirth, or or we can't afford a career, we kind.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Of afford a kree bake, or we just we don't
want to have the disruption to our weight and our body.
It's the disconnect with everyone going, oh wait, is that
what we're doing now? Because I hadn't caught up.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Lucy Lou spoke about her decision and said it wasn't
driven by any medical needs. She said it just seemed
like the right option for me because I was working
and I didn't know when I was going to be
able to stop. Like this is just going to widen
the demand between the rich and poor, which is already
getting wider and wider. But if you feel like your
job doesn't allow you to slow down for nine months
(38:43):
or whatever to go and have that baby, I mean, firstly,
women are doing it every day and you read a
statement like that and you go.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Well, everyone else's career has to stop for five minutes.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
That I think that's part of the pushback is the
women who've had babies and go, well, I had to
do it, elephant in the room. Have you watched any
red carpets lately? Have you looked at awards seasons? The
pressure on women in Hollywood to be thin, no matter
how old they are, no matter how many children they've
had is insane. Well, and to say that that is
(39:13):
not a contributing factor is crazy.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
But a lot of those women have had children, you
know what I mean. Like again, in Hollywood, you can
have a million and a lot of them.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
What happened to Kim Kardashi in when she was pregnant,
She has a couch, she has fat change, She was
compared to a killer whale.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Pregnancy and birth is something that Hollywood doesn't do. I
think that's a problem exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And if it's something that isn't considered attractive enough to
be done by these women who earn a living by
being actresses and famous.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Or the other thing that I read in a report
that's unsubstantiated, but it was in a report that said
there's been theories that for some of the women, in
order to be in Hollywood, you need to have such
low body fat that it is not possible for you
to carry a r chipe.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
And so there's that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Element, which is an industry that needs examining rather than.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I guess a lot of my discomfort with this, though,
is that we are really speculating, making a lot of
assumptions about why these women are making these choices, and
I don't think that the Lily Collins is unless they
want to in the way that Paris Hilton has discussed it,
Lucy lou has discussed it. I don't think they owe
us any explanations. I think that so her husband just
(40:25):
after they had their baby and they posted and everybody
came for them. He said, in regards to the unkind
messages about surrogacy and our path to having a baby,
It's okay not to be an expert on surrogacy. It's
okay to not know why someone else might need a
surrogate to have a child. It's okay to not know
the motivations of a surrogate, regardless of what you assume.
And I absolutely agree with that. I don't think we
have a right to know every woman's medical records, and personally,
(40:48):
I think Australia and Britain and places where surrogacy is
tightly regulated have got it about right. But America, they
turn over a whole lot of important health things to
the private sector. That's the way they roll, and this
is just another one.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I think there's going to be inevitable questions when people
say here's my baby and they weren't pregnant.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
And one thing we should say, we are all mothers
of children. So yes, we are speaking from a perspective
of privilege. And if you are suffering from infertility and
sarrogacy or the potential of sarrogacy is your only way
of becoming a mother, I can get why this is
a really hard conversation for you to listen to.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Massive thank you out louders for being with us here
this Super Bowl Monday, and to our fabulous team for
putting this show together. I know you're as excited as
we are. Who wins this funny game between a sparrow
and an eagle or something. Anyway, we'll be back in
your ears tomorrow. Goodbye.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening. If
you love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode description.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd is a thought-provoking, opinionated, and topic-driven journey through the top sports stories of the day.