September 17, 2025 • 45 mins
Leave it to Donald Trump to redefine international etiquette — this time as a dibber-dobber. Threatening to tattle on a reporter to Australia's PM Anthony Albanese, Trump turned political theatrics into a cross-border spectacle. Mia, Jessie and Amelia investigate this most unAustralian of crimes on today's show.
And, an update on Bruce Willis’ condition from his wife in her confronting new memoir that hits home for anyone touched by dementia. Jessie shares her personal experience and unpacks the backlash Emma Heming Willis is getting online for the decisions she's making on behalf of her celebrity husband.
Plus, a breast pump row. It may sound like something from another era — but it happened to Dr Elise Turner this week in Melbourne when the mum of twins was told to leave an airport lounge for daring to express milk for her babies. But there’s one crucial detail that most of us missed...
And, Births, Deaths & Marriages. Mia’s got a new segment and a lot to say. From celebrity babies to red carpet chaos, she’s tying it all together… loosely. Is it an excuse to (scurrilously) gossip about celebrities? Absolutely. Does she seamlessly segue into a controversial red carpet analysis? Of course she does.
We also reveal the 17 household habits that will clear mental clutter as much as they will your kitchen bench tops. Light and shade, friends. Light and shade.
Support independent women's media
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Behind Closed Doors: Our Personal Tarot Readings
- Listen: So, We Sat Down With A Tarot Card Reader
- Listen: An Assassination In Broad Daylight. And What Happened Next.
- Listen: We Need To Talk About The Gwyneth Paltrow Biography
- Listen: The Great Lock In Has Just Begun
- Listen: The New Rules Of Etiquette For Every Age
- Listen: A Theory About Kate Middleton's Hair & The Secret To Small Talk
- Listen: PARENTING OUT LOUD: Unpacking The KPop Demon Hunters Obsession & A Tracking Tool Controversy
Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here
Watch Mamamia Out Loud:
What to read:
- When Margot Robbie fell in love with her roommate she 'never' thought he'd like her back.
- Margot Robbie has welcomed her first baby with husband Tom Ackerley.
- Caring for a parent with dementia? Here's what an expert wants you to know.
- 'While my parents were suffering from dementia, my brother did something unthinkable.'
- 'Things we wish we knew when our dads were diagnosed with dementia in our early 20s.'
- The Japanese restaurant staffed by people with dementia.
- Emma Heming Willis and Bruce Willis met while working out in 2007. This is their life now.
- Demi Moore and Bruce Willis divorced 2
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I've got something else to tell you that's upsetting. Your
teeth keep growing as you age. And so I look
at my kid's teeth and they look like little niblets,
and they gorgeous little niblets. And then I see mine
and they're just long in the tooth.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Long in the tooth, long in the two.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
My teeth is a big enough. Look at a little
kids teeth and they're just little niblets. They're so cute.
I'm just all teeth. My whole face is just going
to be teeth.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And our noses keep growing and our ears keep growing.
Welcome to mummya out Loud. It's what women are actually
talking about on Wednesday, the seventeenth of September.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I am Jesse Stevens, I'm still Mia Friedman, and I'm Amelia.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Lester and here's what's on our agenda for today.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
A woman was told she couldn't pump breast milk in
an airport lounge, and Maya.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Has an unpopular opinion.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That I'm going to change.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm going to change that a.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Bit very quickly, plus some candid admission about actor Bruce
Willis and why his wife, Emma Heming Willis is facing criticism.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm bringing a little bit of a news segment today
called birth, death and Marriages, and I'm going to somehow
manage to shoehorn in the fact that two very famous
women went to Premiers this week wearing no pants.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
But first, in case you missed it, Donald Trump is
a dobber. The ABC journalist John Lyons asked Trump yesterday
about his business dealings and why he keeps making lots
of money while he's president.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Was this in person?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It was in person on the White House lawn. Trump
was about to go on his trip to the UK.
He's so excited because he gets to ride in a
horse drawn carriage with King Charles and stay at Windsor Castle.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
God were indulging him, so he was.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Not happy to be interrupted on the way to his
dream trip by John Lyons. But let's have a listen
to what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Appropriate President Trump that a president should.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Be engaged in so much prester's activity.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business
and you know what the activity?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Where are you from from the Australian Broad Catholic and
the Australias.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You're hurting Australia right in my opinion, you are hurting
Australia very much right now. But they want to get
along with me.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You know, you're your leader is coming over to see
me very so I'm going to tell them about you.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
You said a very bad tale in return.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yes, that was pointing his finger at John Lyons and saying.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Quiet, I'm going to try that with Jesse sometimes.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
The reason I love this is because it highlighted for
me a cultural difference between Australia and the US. When
my kids started school here last year in Australia after
having moved from the US, they were immediately told not
to dob dollary.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Episodes about it. You cannot dob it is like the
number one rule.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
But I just tell you that that's an Australian value,
not an American one, Like kids are not taught that
in the US.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So when Trump says.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I'm going to tell on you and I'm going to
tell your Prime minister about you, that scene is a
totally okay thing to do. It's it's you using the system.
It's like reporting someone who's breaking the rules, Like there's
no value in America saying you really job.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
What joh Online should have said is don't be a dibbadubber.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, he should have because there's a lot of stigma
here about dobbing. It comes up in loner's books all
the time. We don't dB unless someone is facing an
issue with their safety.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Don't tell.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Also bullying and stuff. We do a courage kids to
speak up.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, true, but generally speaking, I remember at school it
was like the kid who is a dibber dubber was
just not with the in crowd.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
The way to dip adob is to set up a
fake Gmail couch what and then dip adob anonymously.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Is that what you've been doing with your time off?
Maybe you've just dip adobbing to people.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I have some feedback.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
See that person is.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
The main takeaway from this is that Trump's basically saying
he will in fact meet with that they Albaneasi and
I bet Albow is happy about that because it's been
really hard for him to meet with Trump so far.
Doctor Elise Turner is a GP who was returning from
a conference in Perth to her Gold Coast home yesterday
when she stopped off in the Virgin Australia lounge at
(04:20):
Melbourne Airport, and she was there because she was on
a stopover on the way back home, and she wanted
to pump some breast milk in the Virgin lounge and
a supervisor came over to her and said, you can't
do that here because there are men and it will
make people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Did she specifically say there are men or did.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
She According to doctor Turner, she did cite the presence
of men, okay. Doctor Turner says that she explained the
pump was under her shirt, that there would be no
nipple showing, but she was allowed to finish pumping, which
I think is a part of this story that maybe
was lost in the headlines. So after she finished pumping,
on her way out of the lounge, she stopped to
see the supervisor and she told the supervisor that she
(05:01):
had made her feel pretty cruddy for breast pumping.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's the exact phrase.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And that's when the supervisor said, you got to leave.
She put her hand on doctor Turner's arm and she said,
you've got to leave. You're making me uncomfortable and here's
what doctor Turner said about the experience afterwards, being.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Told that I can't sit here in the Virgin Lounge
as a paying business class ticket holder to express breast
milk that sits under my shirt like this, because this
is a private business lounge and we don't do that here.
This is just disgusting that this is twenty twenty five
and this is the sort of treatment that lactating mothers
(05:37):
are expected to deal with.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
MAYA, Yes, I think you've got something to say about.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
This, Okay, So my opinion is exactly what's wrong with
the world in twenty twenty five, because when I first
heard about this story, I hadn't seen any pictures and
I didn't know any details. I thought woman tried to
pump in a lounge, was asked to maybe do it
in the bathroom, She said no, do you prepare your
meals in a toilet? Was asked to leave, And I
(06:05):
was like, you know, I've breastfed three children everywhere funerals,
at weddings, in public, in meetings, at airports, on planes,
in front of all manner of people, and there is
a difference between breastfeeding and pumping.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, talk me through that. I don't know if I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So when you breastfeed, there's a baby's head in front
of your boob, and the baby has a group on
your nipple, there might be a little bit of access
when you.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But your second, do you think you're safe the baby
starts to go and play with something and your nip's
just out and your nipple has never been darker.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sometimes that happens, right, but generally it's different to when
you are pumping. And if you haven't pumped before, and
I've pumped a ton again, I've pumped in all different
places and including bathrooms, and I agree it's horrible to
have to do it in a toilet where you have
to smell everybody else's pooh. That's disgusting and it's not hygienic.
It's not because you've got to keep it all very stale.
(07:01):
But when you're pumping, you actually, depending on the pump,
you can often see the nipple and the milk coming out.
It also makes a lot of noise. If you've got
a handheld one then it can be just a bit
more squelch, squelch, squelch. I didn't realize that she was
under her shirt.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I didn't realize the white corner.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So my unpopular opinion, which is that pumping and breastfeeding
in public is not the same, I kind of retract.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, I disagree with you that they're not the same.
Another detail of this story that's getting missed, which I've
become quite obsessed with, is that doctor Elise Turner isn't
the mother of one new one. She's got twins. She
has six month old twins.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Now, oh okay, because my fact.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Mother has two sets of twins. I'm obsessed with the
logistics of that. My mum lasted maybe four days of
breastfeeding twins is one of the hardest you need a
PhD in like when it comes to supply the fact
that she's got to six months breastfeeding with twins, that
woman deserves an order of Australian metal.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But I reckon I just accidentally keep feeding the same twin.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Get that one really fat, like you need you'd need
a spreadsheet or something. The thing about pumping that I
didn't understand until I had to pump was that when
you have to pump, you have to pump. Now you
cannot do it on someone else's schedule. It's the same
as breastfeeding in that way. In order to keep up supply,
you need to be on a particular schedule, and you
also get engaged. So I had a situation on a
(08:27):
plane where the plane was delayed, delayed, delayed, and I
could feel myself getting engaged, and I'm thinking, Mastidis is
fifteen minutes away, Like I need.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
To relieve this.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
We'll get ushered onto the plane. I'm like, it's fine.
Once we're off, I'll go into the bathroom and I'll
pump and I sit in my seat. And ten minutes past,
fifteen minutes gets to about thirty minutes, and I was
like this is I'm like leaking, Like this is this
is really bad.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I mean it's painful, it's really painstules.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, and it just started feeling hot and awful, and
I'm starting to get anxious, and I went, I've just
got to go to the bathroom. So I took my
bag and I went to go to the bathroom, and
there was an announcement over the plane going basically, get
in your seats. You're not allowed to stand up, like
where where something was going on with the plane. You know,
when you've got to have your belt on before take.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Off, conturbulent.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Often, No, the plane haven't left, but we've been sitting
there for thirty minut So I was like, well, can
I just get some clarity. I got to relieve myself anyway.
I went back to my seat, full flight, two businessmen
next to me.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
You know, six o'clock. Were you in the middle?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I was in the middle. No, I have no choice
right now except to pump. And I didn't have one
of the really cool wearable ones. It was quite bulky.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Was it electric or was it?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
It was electric?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And it was.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It was loud, but you know the ones that can
hide in your brain. It wasn't that I could hide,
like they couldn't see my nipples. But I sat there
with tears streaming down my face, just going I don't
want to do this, but like, I have no choice.
And I found that even in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Did you say something to the men or did they
say anything to you?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
No, they were actually they kind of looked looked the
other way. And I remember at one stage making eye
contact with a flight attendant and being like, if you
say a word, I am going to riot. Like I
think there's a sensitivity to that. You're incredibly because you're
just going. There is so much pressure on me and
Release Turner and every other woman to keep breastfeed. We
are trying our very best. Pumping is the only way
(10:16):
that most women can feasibly do it, alongside work, which
we often need to get back to because of you know,
two parent working households, whatever. And then when there's any
shame or stigma or anything that makes you feel embarrassed
about it, you get so angry.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But Amelia, don't you think that doctor Turner and Jesse
should have been at home with their baby? You can
really why were they on planes?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
You can hear the emotion, can't you, in Doctor Turner's voice,
And it's because six months postpardon, there's so much that's
going on chemically in her body is still as well,
and being away from your baby, or babies when they're
still six months old, you've already got a heightened level
of anxiety coursing through your veins because your body is
(11:05):
telling you that you should not be away from the baby.
And so then to have some one come up to
you and make you feel embarrassed, I can see how
that really sent her spiraling, and I have so much
sympathy for her what's interesting about pumping is I dug
into this and doctor Churner's pointed out that breastfeeding and
pumping are both protected acts under the Sex Discrimination Act
(11:27):
of nineteen eighty four, But back in nineteen eighty four,
pumping was nowhere near as common as it is now,
and the actual wording of that act talks about breastfeeding
and expressing. Now expressing for those who don't know, is
this kind of like milk made act where you have
to kind of fondle your own.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Breasts and the kept milk. Think of a cow never
mastered it tricky.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I've had to do it because the logistics of remembering
all your pump parts, Like I would forget one part,
I'd get to work and go, oh, I fucked, and
I'd have to go into the bathroom and like a
cow with a tea, really milk myself so that I
didn't get massed out.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think what you said, Jess is so interesting about
the shame from both ends, because as a mother, Avenue born,
and you know, those first few months particularly, there's so
much pressure to breastfeed, often when it's not the right
thing for your baby, and it's not the right thing
for you. So you already feel ashamed if you can't
do it right, if your baby's not putting on weight,
if you don't like it, you know, if you stop
(12:22):
too early or you supplement before, if your baby doesn't
like it, by the way, like this, but to then
get shamed by the other side as well. Now I'm
remembering I used to breastfeed quite aggressively in public, particularly
with babies two and three, because I think I was
a little bit bored and I was just like, come
at me. I was like waiting for someone to say something,
so I'd like do it everywhere. No one ever said anything.
(12:46):
I was a bit disappointed.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
There's also some cultural norms run it in different places,
Like I lived in Japan with a newborn, and it's
just a fact that you would not breastfeed in public there,
like we just it is not accepted.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
It's breastfeeding culturally expected well here and encouraged.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
It is culturally accepted and encouraged, but unlike in the West,
they've actually decided to allow for women to do it
in nice spaces. So while you cannot breastfeed in public,
they make sure that, for instance, if you go to
the shopping mall, there is a literal lounge in every
shopping mall for breastfeeding mothers to just lounge around with
their babies in this safe, clean place.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
There's a place for hot water. It's totally nice. In Australia,
have too.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I actually kind of prefer that I've been out with
friends at the pub, at a restaurant, at a concert
and they've been pumping.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
My sister might have pumped a Tailors concert.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
She absolutely did.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think Taylor would approve of that.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Another interesting detail about this was that I read somewhere
that she was then encouraged to go into one of
the private rooms, but you had to pay no.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
So she asked before she started pumping, Hey do you
have a space for me to do this? And they
said that you've got two options. You can hire a
boardroom for one hundred dollars, or you can use the bathroom.
And what I was going to say about the Japan
example is if you're not comfortable with women breastfeeding and
pumping in public, you have to be able to provide
a space for them to do it, because, as you
(14:08):
point out, Jess, it is kind of a physical act
that can lead to harm if it's not done. And
so that's where I think is the trip up here.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say don't
do it in public, but then we're not giving you
a space.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Please stop telling women to do it in toilets. Have
you ever hung out in a toilet? It's true? Would
you like to prepare a meal in a toilet?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
The issue with the toilet too. I pumped in a
plane cubicle once during turbulence, and everything I pumped went
all over the walls, like it just wasn't logistically possible.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
But you need a lot of milk, probably the.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Same flight I probably went on one fly and it's
just always. But you need a table like you have
because the one that I had, and this is then
it's like if you have the one that you tuck
into your bra, they're like, you know, that's not very
good for supply, so you should really get the one
that's got forty five pieces and costs you eight hundred
dollars and you're just like, oh okay. And I had
(15:05):
like bottles that went onto a thing that I had
a special bra. I had to put on all of
that to do it, like am I meant to do
it on the toilet see with my sterilized look.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think the planes are slightly different because you can't
have a dedicated breastfeeding room on every plane, like you
also have to say you can't have a dedicated breastfeeding
room in every workplace permanently. As an employer, I do
believe you might be legally.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Required to that's not a bathroom.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
That's not a bathroom.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But and you've got to let me put it in
the fridge.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
When I was at Channel nine and I used to breastfeed,
literally it was a whole lot of beers and my
breast and that said everything you needed to know about that.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But is meant to stimulate breast milk, right, old wives tale.
But I was going to say, for people who were
not familiar with breast pumps, they do look weird. I
do want to put that out there, and there's something
a little bit confronting about them, because I remember when
Rachel McAdams there was a photo of taken of her
on a film set looking impossibly glamorous and beautiful because
(16:02):
she's Rachel McAdams and she had her too. I think
it was the cover of a magazine and she had
she's the one that looked breastmats does strikingly.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
That's the one that I had a very similar breast paper.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
She had like two breast pumps with the bottom on
each nipple. And you've got to say that there's some
part about it that looks like in the same way
that a polate's reformer matt looks a little bit like
a kind of fetish device. There's something about pumping that's
a I can see how aesthetically it's confronting to people
who are not familiar with the equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Let's put it that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I think it's athetically confronting to the person using it
and to the baby. I hate it. But did you
always a pump?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Did you, guys ever pump in front of anybody like
that you knew, like just in your house, like you
were always quite private, even with breastfeeding, you would often
go into another room. Jesse. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I think people expect that just because you've had a baby,
all of a sudden, you have no modesty. And I
never ever found it comfortable to sit in a cafe
and I was like, I don't want to be stared at.
Sometimes you have to do it. I think that's why
there's a sensitivity too, is that it's like I'd prefer
not to, but I'm doing my best.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
The hard thing about pumping, too is with breast feeding,
there's a sort of like unspoken relationship which is communicated
through smell and behavior and between the parent and the
child about when the breastfeeding is going to occur, and
there's some way that you can communicate with that baby
where you're like not now essentially, But the problem when
you're away from the baby is those cues are gone.
(17:22):
And so when you need to pump, you need to pump, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
The milk comes out and they can see the milk
and I don't know about you guys, but might have
like a blue eytinge yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And also it comes out like a sprinkler, yeah, which
most people don't know. But I remember very distinctly the
first time I pumped in front of my brother in
law and because I needed to pump and he was
over and I was like, is this where I didn't care?
He was cool with it. I don't know if i'd
do it like in front of my dad. I just
sort of didn't care as long as it was my
(17:51):
decision and no one was looking like leering it.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
But that's an interesting question because now that I think
about it, breastfeeding I was fine doing in front of people.
Pumping I was not fine doing in front of people.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Definitely feels more intimate.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Weirdly, I think if you want to do it privately,
the idea I used to go and hide in a
video studio and do it at work, which I always
And the irony is I probably if pumping wasn't such
a terrible experience in terms of you're sitting in a
meeting that's running fifteen minutes over and you're going I
really got to run and pump, and then the breastfeeding
journey probably would have been longer. But for a lot
(18:23):
of people, they just go, this is far too hard.
But I love the idea some A friend of mine
recently went to a doctor's appointment and the doctor was
sitting there with a pump on during the appointment, and
I was like, I kind of love that.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's better than when I went to the doctor once
for a perhap smear and she finished up her curry
before the perapsner began. Look, doctor Channer, I just want
to say, well done. I think having twins and breastfeedings
done really hard.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
We salute you in a moment Emma Heming Willis and
the impossible decisions facing caregivers. When Emma Heming Willis says
it's not up for debate, It's not up for effing debate.
Those words were published on Laney Gossip last week in
regards to a choice made by forty seven year old
(19:10):
Emma Heming Willis, who is the wife of seventy year
old Bruce Willis, who is living with a devastating condition
called fronto temporal dementia. The reason you might be hearing
a lot about the Willis family at the moment is
because Emma has written a book. It is called The
Unexpected Journey, Finding Strength, Hope and Yourself on the Caregiving Path,
(19:31):
and it's all about Bruce Willis's diagnosis and illness. Last month,
Emma also shared that Bruce is now in his own
home with twenty four hour care. Emma and Bruce Willis
shared two children, they're eleven and thirteen, and she has
been open about how Bruce would want them to be
in their own environment that's suited to them and their needs,
(19:52):
where they can be noisy and be adolescents.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And this all sounds very sensible.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yes, and Bruce needs his own environment at the moment
because of his particular set of needs. Now, since that admission,
Emma says she's received just this onslaught of online criticism
from strangers, just saying I cannot believe that you've put
him in care like that. Basically it's your job to
look after him. She said she anticipated that when sharing
(20:17):
her story, and in an interview with Diane Sawyer, she said,
I feel like caregivers are so judged. You have to
do what is right for your family and what is
going to keep your loved ones safe as well as
your young children.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, I thought this was so interesting, and I think
that the reason for the backlash. I mean there's a
backlash to everything in these days, because had she said
we're putting him into full time care, into a home
because we can't meet his needs anymore, no one would
have said anything.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
What do you think it was about the language that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
It's that they're rich. I think the people who would
have been angry are the people who were like, well,
that'd be nice, that'd be nice to have two houses.
I feel too guilty to put my person that I
have to care for into a home or I can't
afford to because full time care out of the home
is too expensive or too heart wrenching. Must be nice, right,
I think that's what it is, and I think it
(21:08):
comes from a place I think some people are just
judgmental dickheads, but we don't care about those. I think
that there would have been a real sense of pain
and envy. Yeah, I hope they can afford that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wondered if the strangers and the anger, if that
was coming from people who had never been in that
situation before and couldn't imagine what it was like and
maybe identifying. So there was a report that came out
a few days ago that said dementia is the number
one killer for people in Australia. It is everywhere. If
you are not currently caring for someone with dementia, it
(21:41):
is likely going to come.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Wow, that must have overtaken heart disease just.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
In the last couple of days. And so I think
when we hear stories like this, we either identify really
strongly with the person with dementia, which is reasonable given
the rates, or we go I'm also going to be
someone probably looking after someone with dementia, right, and so
if you identify with that camp, you probably have a
bit more empathy for what that does to a life,
(22:07):
how many years it takes up. And also Emma has
done such a service to the subject of dementia because
she's talking about all the different kinds and this is
a really specific type of dementia where symptoms include a
lack of empathy, his personality changed.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You can become violent, you can become unpredictable, you can
be unsafe in your own home, like maybe the home
that they were in just wasn't suitable, maybe there was
a pool that didn't have a fence, like you just
don't know. And also, poor Emma, to me, this also
speaks of the impossible pressure and expectations we have of caregivers.
She's got two little girls on one hand, who are
(22:47):
eleven and thirteen. It's not like Bruce's adult children, who
many of whom have children of their own. And then
she's got her husband who is only seventy and she's
a fair bit younger than him, And one of her
biggest supporters is actually Demi. More because there are sort
of still a blended family and Demi and her girls
that she shares with Bruce Willison all very close, and
(23:10):
they've all lined up behind her and said, nobody understands,
and Bruce wouldn't want that burden on his young daughters.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
What do you think about the admission, Amelia, Because she
didn't have to tell us any of this. She could
have just gone, I'm going to make my private decisions
with Bruce. Probably didn't even need to tell us about
the diagnosis, right, And once you put anything on the
public record, once you write a book and you're doing interviews.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
No, she had to because he's a public figure, and
he had a big career, and he was still making
movies towards the end, and they were trying to get
around it by having ear pieces in his ears where
someone would feed in the lines, and so it was
quite well known in Hollywood that something was up.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think you raised a really interesting point before, Jesse,
when you talked about how there are the people who
maybe identify with the caregiver here, and there are people
who identify with Bruce who has dementia. The problem with
identifying with Bruce here and saying, well, Bruce, how can
Bruce enjoy living in this house without his children? Is
that thinking about how to treat dementia and how to
(24:09):
respond to people with dementia is changing. Even now, even
how widespread it is, there's still a lot of different
schools of thought in terms of how people should respond
to dementia. I read a really interesting article in The
New Yorker from a few years ago called The Comforting
Fictions of Dementia Care, and it talked about how fifty
years ago, when someone with dementia would say where's my
(24:30):
husband or wife? The appropriate response, it was thought, was
to be completely honest with them and say they've died.
And if that meant saying your husband or wife has
died fifty times a day, then that that was the
medically appropriate thing to do. Well in the years since,
there's now been a new school of thought that says,
we don't need to be constantly giving these uncomfortable and
(24:51):
hard truths to these people.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
They've lost that person again and again and again.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
There's a whole new school of thought that says that
comforting fictions like saying to them, Oh, they must have
just gone to the shops, is an absolutely fine thing
to do. Now.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Again, that's just one school. Is that what you've discovered, Jesse,
that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You say that my grandfather is in an age care
a brilliant age care facility with dementia, and your impulse
is to try and keep their connection to reality strong.
So he starts talking about how his mother was just
in the room and his wife and he's still looking
after Simon, his grandson, and we would go, no, Simon
(25:32):
lives over here now, like that was our instinct, right,
And then we did all of this research and it
was basically like, how confusing. Imagine if you said I'm
going on to see my kids and I was like,
you don't have, Like that would be so destabilizing all
the time. It actually doesn't help. What's been lovely with
my pop, which is not everyone's experience, is that emotionally
(25:52):
he's okay, Like he's fine. If he thinks that Simon
just went up to the shop, then that's absolutely fine.
We don't have to kind of confront him with reality
all the time.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
The issue is that for caregivers who've made this realization,
it can lead to something called deception guilt.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
This is a real if caregivers.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Are constantly lying, and we've been taught from a very
early age that lying is a sign of disrespect, You're
not treating the person with respectety and dignity. It leads
to this feeling, am I doing something wrong? Even if
medical professionals are telling you that that's the accepted path.
And so that's a really hard thing for Emma to
have to deal with that she's being told no, it's
(26:32):
fine to lie. In fact, that's probably medically advisable. That's
going to weigh on her over time. And that's why
a lot of caregivers apparently speak about this idea that
they're no longer caring for their wife or their husband,
They've become a nurse, and that feeling of I'm no
longer in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I'm a nurse.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I'm someone who's lying to this person all the time
because that's what I've been told to do.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I mean, who is anyone to judge that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I think that what that spakes you as well is
that we just do not understand enough about the subjectivity
of the person living with the illness. We cannot understand
because they can't really tell us in the early stages. Yes,
but even reading what Emma has written about Bruce is
like when they went to the doctor to get that diagnosis.
It was like she was the only one in the room.
(27:20):
He didn't even acknowledge the diagnosis. So it's not like
you've got someone that you can discuss it with or
go what do we do next? You don't know what
that person wants and what they're thinking, and what their
needs and desires are because they've evolved so much.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that's why there's such a vigorous debate amongst the
experts about how to treat them and what the best
thing to say is, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
After the break, there's a birth, a death, and a marriage.
Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We
dropped episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers.
Follow the link in the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week and a huge
thank you. If you're already a subscriber. You might have
(28:08):
heard on the new Is that Robert Redford died overnight.
He was eighty nine. I don't know if you are
very familiar with him as younger millennials.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
My first thought was my nun would be really sad
about this, and then I remembered that my nan died
twenty years ago. But She talked about Robert Redford a lot.
He was originally in The Great Out.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
She was kind of like the Leo of his generation.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, I saw eighty nine.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I was like, that's young.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Like, yeah, I thought the man gone before his time.
It feels young man.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I get him and Paul Newman a little bit mixed
up also Jed but he's Salah dressing Butch Cassidy and
the Sundance Kid the way we were and the sting
with some of the movies he was in, and then
he became a director, an acclaimed director, and he also
was the co founder of the Sundance Film Festival. Yeah,
so he seemed like a.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Really nice person, Like I was reading people, remember, everyone
said he was lovely.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You know who got married? Also reportedly recently it's Keanu
Reeves at the age of sixty one. I didn't know
they got married.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I knew they were together.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
What was interesting about this, You may remember we've spoken
about on the show before. There were pictures of Keanu
Reeves and his girlfriend Alexandra Grant. They've been together since
about twenty nineteen, and everyone was so excited because she
has gray hairs, and we were like, thank you Kianu.
She's only fifty two, so she's almost ten years younger
(29:29):
than him. Still, she's an artist. She's an artist, and
they work together for a long time. They were very
good friends and things turned romantic. About six years ago.
They reportedly got married in Europe over summer. They haven't
given too many details about it because Keiana's famously very private.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I read an article like the Absolute salivating over this
story for the last six or so years. Is just
like Keanu Reeves touches woman with gray hair, and Keanu
Reeves puts arm around grayhaired woman.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I'm like, she's she's my age.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, Like they really seem excited that a grayhaired woman exists.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
I bet she had a wedding dress with an asymmetric ham.
She's very conceptual in her style.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
She's very cool.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Gen X's represent And the birth that I wanted to
tell you about is one that happened a year ago,
so it's not exactly breaking news, but you might know
that Margot Robbie had her first baby, a son, with
her husband Tom Ackley, who's also her producing partner. They
had their little boy, whose name they have not revealed,
October last year, so he'd be almost one. October could
(30:28):
be a good name. You could start that rumor. But
the reason that she's top of mind is that this
week you may have heard or seen some photos of
her at a premiere. She's hitting the red carpet for
the first time since her Barbie promotional tour in twenty
twenty three, and you really couldn't miss it because she
was pretty much nude. She's promoting this movie called A Big, Bold,
(30:50):
Beautiful Journey with Colin Farrell, and what was so striking
about the pictures A couple of things. They were in London,
it was the evening. There's Colin Farrell in a suit,
a full suit with a big trench coat over the top.
He looks very dapper, but.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
He's looking very different seasons.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, she is in a completely see through dress. From
the back you can see her whole bum. She's wearing
a g string. It goes down to just above her bum.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Admits she'll bum amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Oh, I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't look amazing,
And in the front she looks like completely nude. A
couple of nights later she went to another premiere, probably
in la and she was wearing another dress that was
sort of just like a little kind of like a
strapless imagine a strapless white swimsuit with just a few
pieces of black fabric. Again down no notes, a couple
of things interesting. She didn't used to dress like this.
(31:42):
So Margot Robbie has always had a phenomenal body. She's
one of the most beautiful women in the world. Everyone
knows that, but she's never shown a lot of flesh
on a red carpet. It's not really been her thing.
But the other person who was in a dress that
was almost nude this week, and you know, this is
my area of expertise. I'd like to do my PhD
and famous women wearing no pants.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You know you have to do an undergraduate degree before
you do a PhD.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I'll download one.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Amelia and I are you two to education.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Dakotah Johnson. She was going to a charity fundraiser for
the Caring Foundation, who it was to raise money for
women who are the victims of dramestic violence. And she
was wearing literally a black bra, black undies, and a
completely sheer black long dress.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Whenever I see women wearing visible underwear, I just automatically
screenshot it and send it to you because I know
that it will ruin your day reliably.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I'll get riled up now. I'm not going to get
riled up today. But what I thought was interesting about
both of these women is the idea that they've both
had big life changes recently. Margo's become a mother. This
is her first time out really publicly on a red
carpet since then. And Dakota Johnson also had a big
identity change she became single.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Oh wait, is this confirmed from Chris Martin. Yeah, I
didn't know this. This is brand new information.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I'm confirming it now.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And what's interesting to me is that both of these
women new dresses aren't new. No pants aren't new. They're
not even necessarily new for these women because Dakotah Johnson's
been doing it a couple of times since this room
had break up, which happened a few months ago. But
for my god, it's different. To me. It's reclaiming of identity.
After something big happens in your life, you want to
reclaim your identity, and it's reclaiming your identity by showing
(33:23):
the world that you have a hot body. In what
I would say is a pretty male gaysy way.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no no. So it's a
relaunch of a kind. And I think that everyone does
a relaunch man, woman peacock, like we all do a res.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's Chris Martin's relaunch. He's just I don't I think
this says an aggressively. My body is back. I've raised
all the signs that.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Chris Martin was walking around in his spitos because he'd
just broken up with Dakotas.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Someone did a relaunch recently, a man who just started dressing.
It was Ben Affleck after j Lo, and he got
his leather jacket on and he went full mid life.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
But imagine if man after they became fathers walked red
carpets with no shirts.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Men's bodies quite literally in service for a minimum of
twelve months, right in service of the growth and sustaining life.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
So it be That's exactly my point. It would be
easier for the man to do that because they didn't
have to actually carry and then possibly feed a baby.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
But the thing about Margo, so she had the Barbie
premiere and then she was pregnant, she just had this baby.
There is a moment and I see it with so
many women who have just had a baby, and often
when you've finished breastfeeding, which we were just talking about,
where you get your body back. I don't mean literally,
I don't mean you fit into your old jeans. I
don't even mean that. It's just like the contours of
my body now belong to me, and I'm on a
(34:45):
red carpet. There's no one to touch, and all power
to her like I reckon that. That is one element
of why she's dressing like that. The other element is
that Margo Robbie is not choosing what she's wearing on
these red carpets.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
That's she's got enormous power.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
She's a no, she has one of the best stylistships.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
She does and it's a decision. The celebrity always has
the last word because they're wearing the dress.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You think someone's telling Margo Robbie, I think that she's
showing up and she has been given a wardrobe.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
The reason why she's dressing sexy, no, is that from
Barbie to Once upon a Time in Hollywood, everything from
like the clip in her hair to the bow on
her shoes is like all in theme with the film
so on Barbie. She was dressed as a doll the
entire premiere.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, and that was an extraordinary collaboration between her and
Andrew maccamal is, her stylist, one of the most sought
after stylists in the world right and very famous stylists
like law Roachinzindia. It's very much a partnership and Mago Robbie.
The way these big tools work now because once upon
a time a celebrity would do the cover of a
magazine and go my post baby body and they'd pose. Now,
(35:50):
red carpets are that they don't need magazines anymore. So
what happens at the beginning of our press to her
is that they sit down, there's a mood board, they decide,
there's a whole lot of things. So it's like, we'll
use that for the La Premiere, will do this for
the blah blah. And so my point is that it's
a very deliberate choice. And I'm not criticizing that choice,
to be clear, but I'm saying I'm observing that in
our culture, and particularly in Hollywood, the way to say
(36:14):
I'm back baby is to have erased every sign of
your pregnancy from your body.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Okay, be hot, I disagree that that's what's going on,
because so she's working with that stylist for this press
run as well. And Tamara Davis, who's a fashion and
lifestyle writer here at Mummeya, posted something on Instagram the
other day I thought was very astute kind of theory
about what was going on, which is that this movie
was never going to be the blockbuster of Barbie, right.
(36:43):
It was never going to have the same vibe around it,
the same momentum. So if you're ever gonna get your
legs out, you're gonna get it out for this movie
because it needs your publicity.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Now, Okay, Jesse, You've just actually completely made my point.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I'm saying that this is not in service of look
at my post baby body. It's in service of this movie,
which the genre is that it is a romantic fantasy.
That's what she's dressing as a romantic fantasy.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
She's working.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Not criticizing her either, but I feel a little bit
sad because it feels a little bit like reassuring us
that the baby's not going to change anything, that she's
still just as sexy and attracted.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yes, I think that that is not an emotion that
we haven't all felt. Whether it's getting back into your genes,
it's somehow saying hey, I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I think she's saying I am still a working woman.
She's got wathering heights coming up.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Sorry, I'm still a working woman. Here's my bum.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But it is consistent, it is thematically consistent. Wathering heights
will be a completely different wardrobe. This totally makes sense
with with what she's doing. If she was doing Inside
out too or some like animation, she wouldn't be wearing
these clothes. This is part of her job.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Can we not deconstruct the fact that her job and
getting attention in this economy involves the story Margo Robbie's
hottest body in the world. She's back baby, forget the
bab baby what baby? Well, Colin Farrell, who's in the
same movie, gets to dress and say, it's a gadget.
I looked up and it was thirteen degrees in lond.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, you can tell she was actually shaking when she
was freezing. This is always It happened with Wicked. It
happens with every press tool. Like they're still in character.
She's in character. She's wearing a character outfit. She's doing
her job, she's getting paid, all power to her.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Her character is naked.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, romantic fantasy. As if you don't say that and
go oh man, looking at Muga Robbie for two hours,
I feel like that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I just think there's a level of anxiety revealed in
dressing like that, Like I still.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Want to be relevant, I still want to be here.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I still want to be the femfertale enge and you,
and it's like, yeah, Margot Robbie is not only is
she a stunningly successful actor, she's also an amazing producer.
She produced the Barbie movie, she's producing Wuthering Heights. Isn't
there a point at which she can get our attention
not through her body?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So okay, now that she's had a baby, does she
need to be wearing her moomoo?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's what helds, That's what a little bonnet? Is that
what we want? No to me, it's I think it's
revealing of the system and revealing of the system in
which Margot Robbie works, which is I have to reassure
everybody that I'm not mumsy, that I'm not in any
way changed, that I'm even hotter than I was before
(39:30):
I had a baby, and everyone's going to say it's
her right to wear whatever she wants. Of course it is.
We're talking about the system that rewards I've got my
bum out, and it's not in the free way forward.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Like I would posit that Jennifer Lawrence recently had a
baby and then had a second baby in fairly quick succession,
did not go down this exact path. And it's surprising
to me because i'mlike Margot Robbie, Jennifer Lawrence isn't a
power broker in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Margot Robbie.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Now if she says I want to make a movie
of that book, that movie gets made and it's a hit.
Jennifer Lawrence doesn't have that power. And yet, interestingly did
choose a different path in terms of how she presented
herself after having a baby.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I think we've got a bit Pearl clutchy about mothers
who are still like, I'm sexy, look at my legs,
and you know what if she looks like that after
having a baby and she's done.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
The movie and have to Kota.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I hadn't even seen that picture actually yet, but I
kind of love her. I think, yeah, great, I think
that she's hilarious. Red carpets are about attention, and then
we look at things the look you're being attention sticking
on the red conic where your job is too good.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I just think it's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
The way Colin's inspector gadget like I do. Come back
to that, like he is wearing the most covered up
outfit you could possibly wear, which is a trench.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So the marketing, what you're saying is the marketing of
a movie now evolves.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Around the quardrobe of the female start. Yes, that's exactly
what I progress. Before we go. I came across a
substack last night by Marina Cooley called seventeen household Habits
that clear mental clutter. And I'm always looking for ways
to drastically improve my life. On a Wednesday, I wanted
to know how can I rearrange my home, my life
(41:09):
so that there's no longer any stress. Well, she's got
some tips. Okay, do you want to hear some of them?
These are her tips for how we are going to
improve our lives. First, one exit zone by the door. Now,
an exit zone means that you have everything you would
ever need before walking out the door. So right near
the door you need either a cabinet or a cupboard
(41:31):
or something that has your sonnies a piece off exactly,
hats everything you need, second barrel exactly, but exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
People have that, like the keys and stuff near the door, right.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Keys, yes, but we have only recently had like a
cupboard near the door that has like my hat and
stuff in it.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
God, it's life. Change shoes inside your house.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I sometimes do, but Luca doesn't like it. And so
is there a collection of shoes there out the front door?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, Louca likes that. It'd be barefoot and maybe pregnant.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Second thing, always buy in duplicates. So if you know
you're going to consistently use something, you're out of hand soap,
you're out of detergent, you're around your laundry stuff. You're
not buying one, you're buying two. You're going to use it.
It's not going to expire. That's the rule.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Expensive, It is expensive, but you're gonna buy it anyway,
right like always.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Everybody I'm just going to say, not everybody has because
he leaves. Not everybody's got that's their cash.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Keep going, all right, it's the latest and privilege. Okay,
here's another one put the house to bed, so every
night you have to do a close down where you like,
everything goes away so that in the morning you come
and have a look and you go.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Very important to me, okay, is the rule that the
last person who goes to bed is responsible for the
closed down.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
No, that's too much pressure. I think that everyone is
doing closed down. It's like a when I worked at
a bar and you were doing the night shift and
everyone would go, all right, we're closing everything down. I
think there's got to be like a five to ten minute.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
The problem is if you live in a house, most
people have very different sort of schedule. So someone might
go into their room to witch movie or whatever, play
their vibrator earlier than oh my god, so you never
know people might be coming and going, so not everyone's
always together to close down, and you can't close down
at six. Well, let's be real.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
The person who does the closed down is the person
who cares about doing the closed down.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, exactly right, Thank god, it's not me.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Okay. Here's my other one. A two week meal loop.
So that means that you have ten weekly dinners same
ones for those two weeks, and then you just have
them on repeat. My shoe is I can't think of
ten dinners.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And my issue with these tips is they really went
off the rails. They started getting really ridiculous some of
the hips, and I feel like household hags always end
up there. She started talking about how she has some
fancy electronic gadget that puts everyone's schedule.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I was like, no, no, no, no, no affiliate link.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And she also had once a year. You're like, oh,
once a year you need to sit down with your family, yes,
including all your children and have what she calls a
yearly fine out summit where you talk about things like goals, budgets, savings.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
What do you think of that? Well? I tried to
organize a Zoom meeting the other day, as you know, Jesse,
because you're invited. It didn't really attend in very family
meeting I did. I said, guys, family Zoom because we
had to discuss arrangements for the dogs when I was
beeway and just howses and various things, and the family
wasn't very supportive.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
A highlight was when Luca thought the call was over
and he said, that was an effing waste of time.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I'm still there I still still there, do you
know what I mean? And also one of my children
that will remain nameless, Remy just kept making himself like
into a watermelon or into.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
A cash that's your finance summit.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
That was funny.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
A big thank you to all of you the out
louders for listening to today's show and our fabulous team
for putting this show together. And do not forget you
can watch us on YouTube. Mayor has a spark this
show and she'd like you to see it.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I do, And I'm going to be here all week.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah, you're going to join us for I'm.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Having a nice time. Thanks for having me, Oh my
goodness being great.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
We will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mom and Me I is the very best
way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I've got something else to tell you that's upsetting. Your
teeth keep growing as you age. And so I look
at my kid's teeth and they look like little niblets,
and they gorgeous little niblets. And then I see mine
and they're just long in the tooth.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Long in the tooth, long in the two.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
My teeth is a big enough. Look at a little
kids teeth and they're just little niblets. They're so cute.
I'm just all teeth. My whole face is just going
to be teeth.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And our noses keep growing and our ears keep growing.
Welcome to mummya out Loud. It's what women are actually
talking about on Wednesday, the seventeenth of September.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I am Jesse Stevens, I'm still Mia Friedman, and I'm Amelia.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Lester and here's what's on our agenda for today.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
A woman was told she couldn't pump breast milk in
an airport lounge, and Maya.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Has an unpopular opinion.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That I'm going to change.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm going to change that a.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Bit very quickly, plus some candid admission about actor Bruce
Willis and why his wife, Emma Heming Willis is facing criticism.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I'm bringing a little bit of a news segment today
called birth, death and Marriages, and I'm going to somehow
manage to shoehorn in the fact that two very famous
women went to Premiers this week wearing no pants.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
But first, in case you missed it, Donald Trump is
a dobber. The ABC journalist John Lyons asked Trump yesterday
about his business dealings and why he keeps making lots
of money while he's president.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Was this in person?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
It was in person on the White House lawn. Trump
was about to go on his trip to the UK.
He's so excited because he gets to ride in a
horse drawn carriage with King Charles and stay at Windsor Castle.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
God were indulging him, so he was.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Not happy to be interrupted on the way to his
dream trip by John Lyons. But let's have a listen
to what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Appropriate President Trump that a president should.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Be engaged in so much prester's activity.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business
and you know what the activity?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Where are you from from the Australian Broad Catholic and
the Australias.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You're hurting Australia right in my opinion, you are hurting
Australia very much right now. But they want to get
along with me.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You know, you're your leader is coming over to see
me very so I'm going to tell them about you.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
You said a very bad tale in return.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yes, that was pointing his finger at John Lyons and saying.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Quiet, I'm going to try that with Jesse sometimes.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
The reason I love this is because it highlighted for
me a cultural difference between Australia and the US. When
my kids started school here last year in Australia after
having moved from the US, they were immediately told not
to dob dollary.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Episodes about it. You cannot dob it is like the
number one rule.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
But I just tell you that that's an Australian value,
not an American one, Like kids are not taught that
in the US.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So when Trump says.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I'm going to tell on you and I'm going to
tell your Prime minister about you, that scene is a
totally okay thing to do. It's it's you using the system.
It's like reporting someone who's breaking the rules, Like there's
no value in America saying you really job.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
What joh Online should have said is don't be a dibbadubber.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, he should have because there's a lot of stigma
here about dobbing. It comes up in loner's books all
the time. We don't dB unless someone is facing an
issue with their safety.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Don't tell.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Also bullying and stuff. We do a courage kids to
speak up.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, true, but generally speaking, I remember at school it
was like the kid who is a dibber dubber was
just not with the in crowd.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
The way to dip adob is to set up a
fake Gmail couch what and then dip adob anonymously.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Is that what you've been doing with your time off?
Maybe you've just dip adobbing to people.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I have some feedback.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
See that person is.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
The main takeaway from this is that Trump's basically saying
he will in fact meet with that they Albaneasi and
I bet Albow is happy about that because it's been
really hard for him to meet with Trump so far.
Doctor Elise Turner is a GP who was returning from
a conference in Perth to her Gold Coast home yesterday
when she stopped off in the Virgin Australia lounge at
(04:20):
Melbourne Airport, and she was there because she was on
a stopover on the way back home, and she wanted
to pump some breast milk in the Virgin lounge and
a supervisor came over to her and said, you can't
do that here because there are men and it will
make people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Did she specifically say there are men or did.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
She According to doctor Turner, she did cite the presence
of men, okay. Doctor Turner says that she explained the
pump was under her shirt, that there would be no
nipple showing, but she was allowed to finish pumping, which
I think is a part of this story that maybe
was lost in the headlines. So after she finished pumping,
on her way out of the lounge, she stopped to
see the supervisor and she told the supervisor that she
(05:01):
had made her feel pretty cruddy for breast pumping.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That's the exact phrase.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And that's when the supervisor said, you got to leave.
She put her hand on doctor Turner's arm and she said,
you've got to leave. You're making me uncomfortable and here's
what doctor Turner said about the experience afterwards, being.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Told that I can't sit here in the Virgin Lounge
as a paying business class ticket holder to express breast
milk that sits under my shirt like this, because this
is a private business lounge and we don't do that here.
This is just disgusting that this is twenty twenty five
and this is the sort of treatment that lactating mothers
(05:37):
are expected to deal with.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
MAYA, Yes, I think you've got something to say about.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
This, Okay, So my opinion is exactly what's wrong with
the world in twenty twenty five, because when I first
heard about this story, I hadn't seen any pictures and
I didn't know any details. I thought woman tried to
pump in a lounge, was asked to maybe do it
in the bathroom, She said no, do you prepare your
meals in a toilet? Was asked to leave, And I
(06:05):
was like, you know, I've breastfed three children everywhere funerals,
at weddings, in public, in meetings, at airports, on planes,
in front of all manner of people, and there is
a difference between breastfeeding and pumping.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, talk me through that. I don't know if I agree.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So when you breastfeed, there's a baby's head in front
of your boob, and the baby has a group on
your nipple, there might be a little bit of access
when you.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But your second, do you think you're safe the baby
starts to go and play with something and your nip's
just out and your nipple has never been darker.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sometimes that happens, right, but generally it's different to when
you are pumping. And if you haven't pumped before, and
I've pumped a ton again, I've pumped in all different
places and including bathrooms, and I agree it's horrible to
have to do it in a toilet where you have
to smell everybody else's pooh. That's disgusting and it's not hygienic.
It's not because you've got to keep it all very stale.
(07:01):
But when you're pumping, you actually, depending on the pump,
you can often see the nipple and the milk coming out.
It also makes a lot of noise. If you've got
a handheld one then it can be just a bit
more squelch, squelch, squelch. I didn't realize that she was
under her shirt.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I didn't realize the white corner.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So my unpopular opinion, which is that pumping and breastfeeding
in public is not the same, I kind of retract.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Okay, I disagree with you that they're not the same.
Another detail of this story that's getting missed, which I've
become quite obsessed with, is that doctor Elise Turner isn't
the mother of one new one. She's got twins. She
has six month old twins.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Now, oh okay, because my fact.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Mother has two sets of twins. I'm obsessed with the
logistics of that. My mum lasted maybe four days of
breastfeeding twins is one of the hardest you need a
PhD in like when it comes to supply the fact
that she's got to six months breastfeeding with twins, that
woman deserves an order of Australian metal.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
But I reckon I just accidentally keep feeding the same twin.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Get that one really fat, like you need you'd need
a spreadsheet or something. The thing about pumping that I
didn't understand until I had to pump was that when
you have to pump, you have to pump. Now you
cannot do it on someone else's schedule. It's the same
as breastfeeding in that way. In order to keep up supply,
you need to be on a particular schedule, and you
also get engaged. So I had a situation on a
(08:27):
plane where the plane was delayed, delayed, delayed, and I
could feel myself getting engaged, and I'm thinking, Mastidis is
fifteen minutes away, Like I need.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
To relieve this.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
We'll get ushered onto the plane. I'm like, it's fine.
Once we're off, I'll go into the bathroom and I'll
pump and I sit in my seat. And ten minutes past,
fifteen minutes gets to about thirty minutes, and I was
like this is I'm like leaking, Like this is this
is really bad.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I mean it's painful, it's really painstules.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, and it just started feeling hot and awful, and
I'm starting to get anxious, and I went, I've just
got to go to the bathroom. So I took my
bag and I went to go to the bathroom, and
there was an announcement over the plane going basically, get
in your seats. You're not allowed to stand up, like
where where something was going on with the plane. You know,
when you've got to have your belt on before take.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Off, conturbulent.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Often, No, the plane haven't left, but we've been sitting
there for thirty minut So I was like, well, can
I just get some clarity. I got to relieve myself anyway.
I went back to my seat, full flight, two businessmen
next to me.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
You know, six o'clock. Were you in the middle?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I was in the middle. No, I have no choice
right now except to pump. And I didn't have one
of the really cool wearable ones. It was quite bulky.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Was it electric or was it?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
It was electric?
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And it was.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It was loud, but you know the ones that can
hide in your brain. It wasn't that I could hide,
like they couldn't see my nipples. But I sat there
with tears streaming down my face, just going I don't
want to do this, but like, I have no choice.
And I found that even in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Did you say something to the men or did they
say anything to you?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
No, they were actually they kind of looked looked the
other way. And I remember at one stage making eye
contact with a flight attendant and being like, if you
say a word, I am going to riot. Like I
think there's a sensitivity to that. You're incredibly because you're
just going. There is so much pressure on me and
Release Turner and every other woman to keep breastfeed. We
are trying our very best. Pumping is the only way
(10:16):
that most women can feasibly do it, alongside work, which
we often need to get back to because of you know,
two parent working households, whatever. And then when there's any
shame or stigma or anything that makes you feel embarrassed
about it, you get so angry.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But Amelia, don't you think that doctor Turner and Jesse
should have been at home with their baby? You can
really why were they on planes?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
You can hear the emotion, can't you, in Doctor Turner's voice,
And it's because six months postpardon, there's so much that's
going on chemically in her body is still as well,
and being away from your baby, or babies when they're
still six months old, you've already got a heightened level
of anxiety coursing through your veins because your body is
(11:05):
telling you that you should not be away from the baby.
And so then to have some one come up to
you and make you feel embarrassed, I can see how
that really sent her spiraling, and I have so much
sympathy for her what's interesting about pumping is I dug
into this and doctor Churner's pointed out that breastfeeding and
pumping are both protected acts under the Sex Discrimination Act
(11:27):
of nineteen eighty four, But back in nineteen eighty four,
pumping was nowhere near as common as it is now,
and the actual wording of that act talks about breastfeeding
and expressing. Now expressing for those who don't know, is
this kind of like milk made act where you have
to kind of fondle your own.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Breasts and the kept milk. Think of a cow never
mastered it tricky.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I've had to do it because the logistics of remembering
all your pump parts, Like I would forget one part,
I'd get to work and go, oh, I fucked, and
I'd have to go into the bathroom and like a
cow with a tea, really milk myself so that I
didn't get massed out.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think what you said, Jess is so interesting about
the shame from both ends, because as a mother, Avenue born,
and you know, those first few months particularly, there's so
much pressure to breastfeed, often when it's not the right
thing for your baby, and it's not the right thing
for you. So you already feel ashamed if you can't
do it right, if your baby's not putting on weight,
if you don't like it, you know, if you stop
(12:22):
too early or you supplement before, if your baby doesn't
like it, by the way, like this, but to then
get shamed by the other side as well. Now I'm
remembering I used to breastfeed quite aggressively in public, particularly
with babies two and three, because I think I was
a little bit bored and I was just like, come
at me. I was like waiting for someone to say something,
so I'd like do it everywhere. No one ever said anything.
(12:46):
I was a bit disappointed.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
There's also some cultural norms run it in different places,
Like I lived in Japan with a newborn, and it's
just a fact that you would not breastfeed in public there,
like we just it is not accepted.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
It's breastfeeding culturally expected well here and encouraged.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
It is culturally accepted and encouraged, but unlike in the West,
they've actually decided to allow for women to do it
in nice spaces. So while you cannot breastfeed in public,
they make sure that, for instance, if you go to
the shopping mall, there is a literal lounge in every
shopping mall for breastfeeding mothers to just lounge around with
their babies in this safe, clean place.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
There's a place for hot water. It's totally nice. In Australia,
have too.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
I actually kind of prefer that I've been out with
friends at the pub, at a restaurant, at a concert
and they've been pumping.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
My sister might have pumped a Tailors concert.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
She absolutely did.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
I think Taylor would approve of that.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Another interesting detail about this was that I read somewhere
that she was then encouraged to go into one of
the private rooms, but you had to pay no.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
So she asked before she started pumping, Hey do you
have a space for me to do this? And they
said that you've got two options. You can hire a
boardroom for one hundred dollars, or you can use the bathroom.
And what I was going to say about the Japan
example is if you're not comfortable with women breastfeeding and
pumping in public, you have to be able to provide
a space for them to do it, because, as you
(14:08):
point out, Jess, it is kind of a physical act
that can lead to harm if it's not done. And
so that's where I think is the trip up here.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say don't
do it in public, but then we're not giving you
a space.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Please stop telling women to do it in toilets. Have
you ever hung out in a toilet? It's true? Would
you like to prepare a meal in a toilet?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
The issue with the toilet too. I pumped in a
plane cubicle once during turbulence, and everything I pumped went
all over the walls, like it just wasn't logistically possible.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
But you need a lot of milk, probably the.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Same flight I probably went on one fly and it's
just always. But you need a table like you have
because the one that I had, and this is then
it's like if you have the one that you tuck
into your bra, they're like, you know, that's not very
good for supply, so you should really get the one
that's got forty five pieces and costs you eight hundred
dollars and you're just like, oh okay. And I had
(15:05):
like bottles that went onto a thing that I had
a special bra. I had to put on all of
that to do it, like am I meant to do
it on the toilet see with my sterilized look.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think the planes are slightly different because you can't
have a dedicated breastfeeding room on every plane, like you
also have to say you can't have a dedicated breastfeeding
room in every workplace permanently. As an employer, I do
believe you might be legally.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Required to that's not a bathroom.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
That's not a bathroom.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But and you've got to let me put it in
the fridge.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
When I was at Channel nine and I used to breastfeed,
literally it was a whole lot of beers and my
breast and that said everything you needed to know about that.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But is meant to stimulate breast milk, right, old wives tale.
But I was going to say, for people who were
not familiar with breast pumps, they do look weird. I
do want to put that out there, and there's something
a little bit confronting about them, because I remember when
Rachel McAdams there was a photo of taken of her
on a film set looking impossibly glamorous and beautiful because
(16:02):
she's Rachel McAdams and she had her too. I think
it was the cover of a magazine and she had
she's the one that looked breastmats does strikingly.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
That's the one that I had a very similar breast paper.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
She had like two breast pumps with the bottom on
each nipple. And you've got to say that there's some
part about it that looks like in the same way
that a polate's reformer matt looks a little bit like
a kind of fetish device. There's something about pumping that's
a I can see how aesthetically it's confronting to people
who are not familiar with the equipment.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Let's put it that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I think it's athetically confronting to the person using it
and to the baby. I hate it. But did you
always a pump?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Did you, guys ever pump in front of anybody like
that you knew, like just in your house, like you
were always quite private, even with breastfeeding, you would often
go into another room. Jesse. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I think people expect that just because you've had a baby,
all of a sudden, you have no modesty. And I
never ever found it comfortable to sit in a cafe
and I was like, I don't want to be stared at.
Sometimes you have to do it. I think that's why
there's a sensitivity too, is that it's like I'd prefer
not to, but I'm doing my best.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
The hard thing about pumping, too is with breast feeding,
there's a sort of like unspoken relationship which is communicated
through smell and behavior and between the parent and the
child about when the breastfeeding is going to occur, and
there's some way that you can communicate with that baby
where you're like not now essentially, But the problem when
you're away from the baby is those cues are gone.
(17:22):
And so when you need to pump, you need to pump, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
The milk comes out and they can see the milk
and I don't know about you guys, but might have
like a blue eytinge yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And also it comes out like a sprinkler, yeah, which
most people don't know. But I remember very distinctly the
first time I pumped in front of my brother in
law and because I needed to pump and he was
over and I was like, is this where I didn't care?
He was cool with it. I don't know if i'd
do it like in front of my dad. I just
sort of didn't care as long as it was my
(17:51):
decision and no one was looking like leering it.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
But that's an interesting question because now that I think
about it, breastfeeding I was fine doing in front of people.
Pumping I was not fine doing in front of people.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Definitely feels more intimate.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Weirdly, I think if you want to do it privately,
the idea I used to go and hide in a
video studio and do it at work, which I always
And the irony is I probably if pumping wasn't such
a terrible experience in terms of you're sitting in a
meeting that's running fifteen minutes over and you're going I
really got to run and pump, and then the breastfeeding
journey probably would have been longer. But for a lot
(18:23):
of people, they just go, this is far too hard.
But I love the idea some A friend of mine
recently went to a doctor's appointment and the doctor was
sitting there with a pump on during the appointment, and
I was like, I kind of love that.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's better than when I went to the doctor once
for a perhap smear and she finished up her curry
before the perapsner began. Look, doctor Channer, I just want
to say, well done. I think having twins and breastfeedings
done really hard.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
We salute you in a moment Emma Heming Willis and
the impossible decisions facing caregivers. When Emma Heming Willis says
it's not up for debate, It's not up for effing debate.
Those words were published on Laney Gossip last week in
regards to a choice made by forty seven year old
(19:10):
Emma Heming Willis, who is the wife of seventy year
old Bruce Willis, who is living with a devastating condition
called fronto temporal dementia. The reason you might be hearing
a lot about the Willis family at the moment is
because Emma has written a book. It is called The
Unexpected Journey, Finding Strength, Hope and Yourself on the Caregiving Path,
(19:31):
and it's all about Bruce Willis's diagnosis and illness. Last month,
Emma also shared that Bruce is now in his own
home with twenty four hour care. Emma and Bruce Willis
shared two children, they're eleven and thirteen, and she has
been open about how Bruce would want them to be
in their own environment that's suited to them and their needs,
(19:52):
where they can be noisy and be adolescents.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And this all sounds very sensible.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yes, and Bruce needs his own environment at the moment
because of his particular set of needs. Now, since that admission,
Emma says she's received just this onslaught of online criticism
from strangers, just saying I cannot believe that you've put
him in care like that. Basically it's your job to
look after him. She said she anticipated that when sharing
(20:17):
her story, and in an interview with Diane Sawyer, she said,
I feel like caregivers are so judged. You have to
do what is right for your family and what is
going to keep your loved ones safe as well as
your young children.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, I thought this was so interesting, and I think
that the reason for the backlash. I mean there's a
backlash to everything in these days, because had she said
we're putting him into full time care, into a home
because we can't meet his needs anymore, no one would
have said anything.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
What do you think it was about the language that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
It's that they're rich. I think the people who would
have been angry are the people who were like, well,
that'd be nice, that'd be nice to have two houses.
I feel too guilty to put my person that I
have to care for into a home or I can't
afford to because full time care out of the home
is too expensive or too heart wrenching. Must be nice, right,
I think that's what it is, and I think it
(21:08):
comes from a place I think some people are just
judgmental dickheads, but we don't care about those. I think
that there would have been a real sense of pain
and envy. Yeah, I hope they can afford that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I wondered if the strangers and the anger, if that
was coming from people who had never been in that
situation before and couldn't imagine what it was like and
maybe identifying. So there was a report that came out
a few days ago that said dementia is the number
one killer for people in Australia. It is everywhere. If
you are not currently caring for someone with dementia, it
(21:41):
is likely going to come.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Wow, that must have overtaken heart disease just.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
In the last couple of days. And so I think
when we hear stories like this, we either identify really
strongly with the person with dementia, which is reasonable given
the rates, or we go I'm also going to be
someone probably looking after someone with dementia, right, and so
if you identify with that camp, you probably have a
bit more empathy for what that does to a life,
(22:07):
how many years it takes up. And also Emma has
done such a service to the subject of dementia because
she's talking about all the different kinds and this is
a really specific type of dementia where symptoms include a
lack of empathy, his personality changed.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You can become violent, you can become unpredictable, you can
be unsafe in your own home, like maybe the home
that they were in just wasn't suitable, maybe there was
a pool that didn't have a fence, like you just
don't know. And also, poor Emma, to me, this also
speaks of the impossible pressure and expectations we have of caregivers.
She's got two little girls on one hand, who are
(22:47):
eleven and thirteen. It's not like Bruce's adult children, who
many of whom have children of their own. And then
she's got her husband who is only seventy and she's
a fair bit younger than him, And one of her
biggest supporters is actually Demi. More because there are sort
of still a blended family and Demi and her girls
that she shares with Bruce Willison all very close, and
(23:10):
they've all lined up behind her and said, nobody understands,
and Bruce wouldn't want that burden on his young daughters.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
What do you think about the admission, Amelia, Because she
didn't have to tell us any of this. She could
have just gone, I'm going to make my private decisions
with Bruce. Probably didn't even need to tell us about
the diagnosis, right, And once you put anything on the
public record, once you write a book and you're doing interviews.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
No, she had to because he's a public figure, and
he had a big career, and he was still making
movies towards the end, and they were trying to get
around it by having ear pieces in his ears where
someone would feed in the lines, and so it was
quite well known in Hollywood that something was up.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think you raised a really interesting point before, Jesse,
when you talked about how there are the people who
maybe identify with the caregiver here, and there are people
who identify with Bruce who has dementia. The problem with
identifying with Bruce here and saying, well, Bruce, how can
Bruce enjoy living in this house without his children? Is
that thinking about how to treat dementia and how to
(24:09):
respond to people with dementia is changing. Even now, even
how widespread it is, there's still a lot of different
schools of thought in terms of how people should respond
to dementia. I read a really interesting article in The
New Yorker from a few years ago called The Comforting
Fictions of Dementia Care, and it talked about how fifty
years ago, when someone with dementia would say where's my
(24:30):
husband or wife? The appropriate response, it was thought, was
to be completely honest with them and say they've died.
And if that meant saying your husband or wife has
died fifty times a day, then that that was the
medically appropriate thing to do. Well in the years since,
there's now been a new school of thought that says,
we don't need to be constantly giving these uncomfortable and
(24:51):
hard truths to these people.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
They've lost that person again and again and again.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
There's a whole new school of thought that says that
comforting fictions like saying to them, Oh, they must have
just gone to the shops, is an absolutely fine thing
to do. Now.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Again, that's just one school. Is that what you've discovered, Jesse,
that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You say that my grandfather is in an age care
a brilliant age care facility with dementia, and your impulse
is to try and keep their connection to reality strong.
So he starts talking about how his mother was just
in the room and his wife and he's still looking
after Simon, his grandson, and we would go, no, Simon
(25:32):
lives over here now, like that was our instinct, right,
And then we did all of this research and it
was basically like, how confusing. Imagine if you said I'm
going on to see my kids and I was like,
you don't have, Like that would be so destabilizing all
the time. It actually doesn't help. What's been lovely with
my pop, which is not everyone's experience, is that emotionally
(25:52):
he's okay, Like he's fine. If he thinks that Simon
just went up to the shop, then that's absolutely fine.
We don't have to kind of confront him with reality
all the time.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
The issue is that for caregivers who've made this realization,
it can lead to something called deception guilt.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
This is a real if caregivers.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Are constantly lying, and we've been taught from a very
early age that lying is a sign of disrespect, You're
not treating the person with respectety and dignity. It leads
to this feeling, am I doing something wrong? Even if
medical professionals are telling you that that's the accepted path.
And so that's a really hard thing for Emma to
have to deal with that she's being told no, it's
(26:32):
fine to lie. In fact, that's probably medically advisable. That's
going to weigh on her over time. And that's why
a lot of caregivers apparently speak about this idea that
they're no longer caring for their wife or their husband,
They've become a nurse, and that feeling of I'm no
longer in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I'm a nurse.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I'm someone who's lying to this person all the time
because that's what I've been told to do.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I mean, who is anyone to judge that.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I think that what that spakes you as well is
that we just do not understand enough about the subjectivity
of the person living with the illness. We cannot understand
because they can't really tell us in the early stages. Yes,
but even reading what Emma has written about Bruce is
like when they went to the doctor to get that diagnosis.
It was like she was the only one in the room.
(27:20):
He didn't even acknowledge the diagnosis. So it's not like
you've got someone that you can discuss it with or
go what do we do next? You don't know what
that person wants and what they're thinking, and what their
needs and desires are because they've evolved so much.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that's why there's such a vigorous debate amongst the
experts about how to treat them and what the best
thing to say is, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
After the break, there's a birth, a death, and a marriage.
Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We
dropped episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers.
Follow the link in the show notes to get us
in your ears five days a week and a huge
thank you. If you're already a subscriber. You might have
(28:08):
heard on the new Is that Robert Redford died overnight.
He was eighty nine. I don't know if you are
very familiar with him as younger millennials.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
My first thought was my nun would be really sad
about this, and then I remembered that my nan died
twenty years ago. But She talked about Robert Redford a lot.
He was originally in The Great Out.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
She was kind of like the Leo of his generation.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, I saw eighty nine.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I was like, that's young.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Like, yeah, I thought the man gone before his time.
It feels young man.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I get him and Paul Newman a little bit mixed
up also Jed but he's Salah dressing Butch Cassidy and
the Sundance Kid the way we were and the sting
with some of the movies he was in, and then
he became a director, an acclaimed director, and he also
was the co founder of the Sundance Film Festival. Yeah,
so he seemed like a.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Really nice person, Like I was reading people, remember, everyone
said he was lovely.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You know who got married? Also reportedly recently it's Keanu
Reeves at the age of sixty one. I didn't know
they got married.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I knew they were together.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
What was interesting about this, You may remember we've spoken
about on the show before. There were pictures of Keanu
Reeves and his girlfriend Alexandra Grant. They've been together since
about twenty nineteen, and everyone was so excited because she
has gray hairs, and we were like, thank you Kianu.
She's only fifty two, so she's almost ten years younger
(29:29):
than him. Still, she's an artist. She's an artist, and
they work together for a long time. They were very
good friends and things turned romantic. About six years ago.
They reportedly got married in Europe over summer. They haven't
given too many details about it because Keiana's famously very private.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I read an article like the Absolute salivating over this
story for the last six or so years. Is just
like Keanu Reeves touches woman with gray hair, and Keanu
Reeves puts arm around grayhaired woman.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I'm like, she's she's my age.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, Like they really seem excited that a grayhaired woman exists.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
I bet she had a wedding dress with an asymmetric ham.
She's very conceptual in her style.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
She's very cool.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Gen X's represent And the birth that I wanted to
tell you about is one that happened a year ago,
so it's not exactly breaking news, but you might know
that Margot Robbie had her first baby, a son, with
her husband Tom Ackley, who's also her producing partner. They
had their little boy, whose name they have not revealed,
October last year, so he'd be almost one. October could
(30:28):
be a good name. You could start that rumor. But
the reason that she's top of mind is that this
week you may have heard or seen some photos of
her at a premiere. She's hitting the red carpet for
the first time since her Barbie promotional tour in twenty
twenty three, and you really couldn't miss it because she
was pretty much nude. She's promoting this movie called A Big, Bold,
(30:50):
Beautiful Journey with Colin Farrell, and what was so striking
about the pictures A couple of things. They were in London,
it was the evening. There's Colin Farrell in a suit,
a full suit with a big trench coat over the top.
He looks very dapper, but.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
He's looking very different seasons.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, she is in a completely see through dress. From
the back you can see her whole bum. She's wearing
a g string. It goes down to just above her bum.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Admits she'll bum amazing.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Oh, I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't look amazing,
And in the front she looks like completely nude. A
couple of nights later she went to another premiere, probably
in la and she was wearing another dress that was
sort of just like a little kind of like a
strapless imagine a strapless white swimsuit with just a few
pieces of black fabric. Again down no notes, a couple
of things interesting. She didn't used to dress like this.
(31:42):
So Margot Robbie has always had a phenomenal body. She's
one of the most beautiful women in the world. Everyone
knows that, but she's never shown a lot of flesh
on a red carpet. It's not really been her thing.
But the other person who was in a dress that
was almost nude this week, and you know, this is
my area of expertise. I'd like to do my PhD
and famous women wearing no pants.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You know you have to do an undergraduate degree before
you do a PhD.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I'll download one.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Amelia and I are you two to education.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Dakotah Johnson. She was going to a charity fundraiser for
the Caring Foundation, who it was to raise money for
women who are the victims of dramestic violence. And she
was wearing literally a black bra, black undies, and a
completely sheer black long dress.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Whenever I see women wearing visible underwear, I just automatically
screenshot it and send it to you because I know
that it will ruin your day reliably.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I'll get riled up now. I'm not going to get
riled up today. But what I thought was interesting about
both of these women is the idea that they've both
had big life changes recently. Margo's become a mother. This
is her first time out really publicly on a red
carpet since then. And Dakota Johnson also had a big
identity change she became single.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Oh wait, is this confirmed from Chris Martin. Yeah, I
didn't know this. This is brand new information.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I'm confirming it now.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And what's interesting to me is that both of these
women new dresses aren't new. No pants aren't new. They're
not even necessarily new for these women because Dakotah Johnson's
been doing it a couple of times since this room
had break up, which happened a few months ago. But
for my god, it's different. To me. It's reclaiming of identity.
After something big happens in your life, you want to
reclaim your identity, and it's reclaiming your identity by showing
(33:23):
the world that you have a hot body. In what
I would say is a pretty male gaysy way.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no no. So it's a
relaunch of a kind. And I think that everyone does
a relaunch man, woman peacock, like we all do a res.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's Chris Martin's relaunch. He's just I don't I think
this says an aggressively. My body is back. I've raised
all the signs that.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Chris Martin was walking around in his spitos because he'd
just broken up with Dakotas.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Someone did a relaunch recently, a man who just started dressing.
It was Ben Affleck after j Lo, and he got
his leather jacket on and he went full mid life.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
But imagine if man after they became fathers walked red
carpets with no shirts.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Men's bodies quite literally in service for a minimum of
twelve months, right in service of the growth and sustaining life.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
So it be That's exactly my point. It would be
easier for the man to do that because they didn't
have to actually carry and then possibly feed a baby.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
But the thing about Margo, so she had the Barbie
premiere and then she was pregnant, she just had this baby.
There is a moment and I see it with so
many women who have just had a baby, and often
when you've finished breastfeeding, which we were just talking about,
where you get your body back. I don't mean literally,
I don't mean you fit into your old jeans. I
don't even mean that. It's just like the contours of
my body now belong to me, and I'm on a
(34:45):
red carpet. There's no one to touch, and all power
to her like I reckon that. That is one element
of why she's dressing like that. The other element is
that Margo Robbie is not choosing what she's wearing on
these red carpets.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
That's she's got enormous power.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
She's a no, she has one of the best stylistships.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
She does and it's a decision. The celebrity always has
the last word because they're wearing the dress.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You think someone's telling Margo Robbie, I think that she's
showing up and she has been given a wardrobe.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Now.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
The reason why she's dressing sexy, no, is that from
Barbie to Once upon a Time in Hollywood, everything from
like the clip in her hair to the bow on
her shoes is like all in theme with the film
so on Barbie. She was dressed as a doll the
entire premiere.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, and that was an extraordinary collaboration between her and
Andrew maccamal is, her stylist, one of the most sought
after stylists in the world right and very famous stylists
like law Roachinzindia. It's very much a partnership and Mago Robbie.
The way these big tools work now because once upon
a time a celebrity would do the cover of a
magazine and go my post baby body and they'd pose. Now,
(35:50):
red carpets are that they don't need magazines anymore. So
what happens at the beginning of our press to her
is that they sit down, there's a mood board, they decide,
there's a whole lot of things. So it's like, we'll
use that for the La Premiere, will do this for
the blah blah. And so my point is that it's
a very deliberate choice. And I'm not criticizing that choice,
to be clear, but I'm saying I'm observing that in
our culture, and particularly in Hollywood, the way to say
(36:14):
I'm back baby is to have erased every sign of
your pregnancy from your body.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Okay, be hot, I disagree that that's what's going on,
because so she's working with that stylist for this press
run as well. And Tamara Davis, who's a fashion and
lifestyle writer here at Mummeya, posted something on Instagram the
other day I thought was very astute kind of theory
about what was going on, which is that this movie
was never going to be the blockbuster of Barbie, right.
(36:43):
It was never going to have the same vibe around it,
the same momentum. So if you're ever gonna get your
legs out, you're gonna get it out for this movie
because it needs your publicity.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Now, Okay, Jesse, You've just actually completely made my point.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I'm saying that this is not in service of look
at my post baby body. It's in service of this movie,
which the genre is that it is a romantic fantasy.
That's what she's dressing as a romantic fantasy.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
She's working.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Not criticizing her either, but I feel a little bit
sad because it feels a little bit like reassuring us
that the baby's not going to change anything, that she's
still just as sexy and attracted.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yes, I think that that is not an emotion that
we haven't all felt. Whether it's getting back into your genes,
it's somehow saying hey, I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I think she's saying I am still a working woman.
She's got wathering heights coming up.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Sorry, I'm still a working woman. Here's my bum.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But it is consistent, it is thematically consistent. Wathering heights
will be a completely different wardrobe. This totally makes sense
with with what she's doing. If she was doing Inside
out too or some like animation, she wouldn't be wearing
these clothes. This is part of her job.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Can we not deconstruct the fact that her job and
getting attention in this economy involves the story Margo Robbie's
hottest body in the world. She's back baby, forget the
bab baby what baby? Well, Colin Farrell, who's in the
same movie, gets to dress and say, it's a gadget.
I looked up and it was thirteen degrees in lond.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, you can tell she was actually shaking when she
was freezing. This is always It happened with Wicked. It
happens with every press tool. Like they're still in character.
She's in character. She's wearing a character outfit. She's doing
her job, she's getting paid, all power to her.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Her character is naked.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah, romantic fantasy. As if you don't say that and
go oh man, looking at Muga Robbie for two hours,
I feel like that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I just think there's a level of anxiety revealed in
dressing like that, Like I still.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Want to be relevant, I still want to be here.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I still want to be the femfertale enge and you,
and it's like, yeah, Margot Robbie is not only is
she a stunningly successful actor, she's also an amazing producer.
She produced the Barbie movie, she's producing Wuthering Heights. Isn't
there a point at which she can get our attention
not through her body?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
So okay, now that she's had a baby, does she
need to be wearing her moomoo?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's what helds, That's what a little bonnet? Is that
what we want? No to me, it's I think it's
revealing of the system and revealing of the system in
which Margot Robbie works, which is I have to reassure
everybody that I'm not mumsy, that I'm not in any
way changed, that I'm even hotter than I was before
(39:30):
I had a baby, and everyone's going to say it's
her right to wear whatever she wants. Of course it is.
We're talking about the system that rewards I've got my
bum out, and it's not in the free way forward.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Like I would posit that Jennifer Lawrence recently had a
baby and then had a second baby in fairly quick succession,
did not go down this exact path. And it's surprising
to me because i'mlike Margot Robbie, Jennifer Lawrence isn't a
power broker in Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Margot Robbie.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Now if she says I want to make a movie
of that book, that movie gets made and it's a hit.
Jennifer Lawrence doesn't have that power. And yet, interestingly did
choose a different path in terms of how she presented
herself after having a baby.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I think we've got a bit Pearl clutchy about mothers
who are still like, I'm sexy, look at my legs,
and you know what if she looks like that after
having a baby and she's done.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
The movie and have to Kota.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I hadn't even seen that picture actually yet, but I
kind of love her. I think, yeah, great, I think
that she's hilarious. Red carpets are about attention, and then
we look at things the look you're being attention sticking
on the red conic where your job is too good.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I just think it's really interesting.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
The way Colin's inspector gadget like I do. Come back
to that, like he is wearing the most covered up
outfit you could possibly wear, which is a trench.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So the marketing, what you're saying is the marketing of
a movie now evolves.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Around the quardrobe of the female start. Yes, that's exactly
what I progress. Before we go. I came across a
substack last night by Marina Cooley called seventeen household Habits
that clear mental clutter. And I'm always looking for ways
to drastically improve my life. On a Wednesday, I wanted
to know how can I rearrange my home, my life
(41:09):
so that there's no longer any stress. Well, she's got
some tips. Okay, do you want to hear some of them?
These are her tips for how we are going to
improve our lives. First, one exit zone by the door. Now,
an exit zone means that you have everything you would
ever need before walking out the door. So right near
the door you need either a cabinet or a cupboard
(41:31):
or something that has your sonnies a piece off exactly,
hats everything you need, second barrel exactly, but exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
People have that, like the keys and stuff near the door, right.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Keys, yes, but we have only recently had like a
cupboard near the door that has like my hat and
stuff in it.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
God, it's life. Change shoes inside your house.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
I sometimes do, but Luca doesn't like it. And so
is there a collection of shoes there out the front door?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, Louca likes that. It'd be barefoot and maybe pregnant.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Second thing, always buy in duplicates. So if you know
you're going to consistently use something, you're out of hand soap,
you're out of detergent, you're around your laundry stuff. You're
not buying one, you're buying two. You're going to use it.
It's not going to expire. That's the rule.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Expensive, It is expensive, but you're gonna buy it anyway,
right like always.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Everybody I'm just going to say, not everybody has because
he leaves. Not everybody's got that's their cash.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Keep going, all right, it's the latest and privilege. Okay,
here's another one put the house to bed, so every
night you have to do a close down where you like,
everything goes away so that in the morning you come
and have a look and you go.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Very important to me, okay, is the rule that the
last person who goes to bed is responsible for the
closed down.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
No, that's too much pressure. I think that everyone is
doing closed down. It's like a when I worked at
a bar and you were doing the night shift and
everyone would go, all right, we're closing everything down. I
think there's got to be like a five to ten minute.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
The problem is if you live in a house, most
people have very different sort of schedule. So someone might
go into their room to witch movie or whatever, play
their vibrator earlier than oh my god, so you never
know people might be coming and going, so not everyone's
always together to close down, and you can't close down
at six. Well, let's be real.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
The person who does the closed down is the person
who cares about doing the closed down.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, exactly right, Thank god, it's not me.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Okay. Here's my other one. A two week meal loop.
So that means that you have ten weekly dinners same
ones for those two weeks, and then you just have
them on repeat. My shoe is I can't think of
ten dinners.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And my issue with these tips is they really went
off the rails. They started getting really ridiculous some of
the hips, and I feel like household hags always end
up there. She started talking about how she has some
fancy electronic gadget that puts everyone's schedule.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I was like, no, no, no, no, no affiliate link.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And she also had once a year. You're like, oh,
once a year you need to sit down with your family, yes,
including all your children and have what she calls a
yearly fine out summit where you talk about things like goals, budgets, savings.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
What do you think of that? Well? I tried to
organize a Zoom meeting the other day, as you know, Jesse,
because you're invited. It didn't really attend in very family
meeting I did. I said, guys, family Zoom because we
had to discuss arrangements for the dogs when I was
beeway and just howses and various things, and the family
wasn't very supportive.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
A highlight was when Luca thought the call was over
and he said, that was an effing waste of time.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I'm still there I still still there, do you
know what I mean? And also one of my children
that will remain nameless, Remy just kept making himself like
into a watermelon or into.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
A cash that's your finance summit.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
That was funny.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
A big thank you to all of you the out
louders for listening to today's show and our fabulous team
for putting this show together. And do not forget you
can watch us on YouTube. Mayor has a spark this
show and she'd like you to see it.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I do, And I'm going to be here all week.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah, you're going to join us for I'm.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Having a nice time. Thanks for having me, Oh my
goodness being great.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
We will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Shout out to any Mom and me A subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to Mom and Me I is the very best
way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com