August 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Is maternal instinct actually a myth? It's a question that's hitting close to home for so many women, whether you have children or not. We're diving into this one, and our conversation may surprise you.
Plus, the internet has gifted us some new vocabulary. 'Mankeeping', 'heterofatalism', 'hermeneutic labour' - fancy words that all translate to the same exhausting reality: what it's actually like to date men. Em Vernem's got the juicy dating stories to prove these terms exist for a reason.
And your weekend sorted with our latest recommendations: a mysterious new hobby that's got us intrigued, a genius hack for mastering new skills, and how to transform the most basic of vegetables into something actually delicious.
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Recommendations
Em recommends Blind Boxes at Pop Mart
Jessie recommends Carrots by Nagi and Jessie wants you to check out How Social Media Shortens Your Life
Holly recommends learning a language at Duolingo
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifteenth of August.
My name is Hollywayne, right, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vernham.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And here's what's on our agender for today.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Is maternal instinct really a lie? I have a feeling
that Holly and I passionately disagree about this.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Quite possibly mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and her neutic labor.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Say that, right?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I think you did.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
There's a whole lot of fancy new words to describe
the same thing. The realities of dating men. Emily Vernon
is going to translate.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
And we have some recommendations for your weekend, including a
mysterious new hobby, a hack in learning a new skill,
and turning a basic bitch vegetable into a delicious dish.
But for a few nights ago, I was scrolling on TikTok,
like the four hours I set aside every night for
my TikTok scroll, and I came across this crator named Brandon,
and he spoke to my soul. He was walking alongside
(01:21):
this river and he was talking into the camera about
how he's an outsidey person, not an outdoorsy person. Okay,
And I immediately clicked into another video of his where
he explained what he meant by that.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
This is what he said, We.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
As a society are still not knowing the difference between
outdoorsy and outsidey. Okay. Outdoorsy is nature for adventure. Outsidey
is nature for leisure. So for example, backpacking no bever
g nails, yes, swimming in the ocean, no, strolling upon
the shore, yes, mountaineering no, Mary.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Oliver, Yes, I love this so much. I have some
questions camping outsidey or outdoors outdoors outdoorsy definitely, but glamping
outsidey okay, because I I think I'm outside And the
reason for this is that I went on a three
(02:18):
day hike to Berney Island, remember that, right.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, I've been on a similar line.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yes, yes, because we're hikers and we're very outdoorsy. That's
what it looks like.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
But the beauty of.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
This hike was that it was an outsidey hike.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
It was what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Okay? So you go and have a shower, and when
you're in the shower, it's open and you look out
onto the wilderness. But the shower's warm. You got your
shampoo and conditioner, and you gotta the last of champagne
on the windows. That is outside.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's outsidey.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I did the same thing. So you walk, so you
do the outdoorsy bit, but you stay every night in
a beautiful lot.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And that's why outside a bit. And there's wine.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah, so I think I know what my line is. Okay,
I am outside because I need a coffee, preferably Barista made.
And I think that the problem with going and camping,
like my friend recently went to Canada camped the whole time. Wow,
way too close to the bears. Needs best brain stuff.
I was like, I'm happy to see the bear from
my cab, from my hotel. I don't need to hear
(03:14):
the bear chloring it the thing? And where do you
get your Barista coffee? What are you am outside?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Or I definitely outside the borderline? Insidey outside?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Barely walk every day?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I do outside, do my outside walk. But the way
I know if you're someone's outsider versus outdoorsy is how
they approach holidaying, Like what are your activities you plan
for your holiday? Are you a hotel family or your
hiking family. My biggest fear is marrying into a family
that like to go to walks on their holidays for
no reason.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
And they have Like I think a sign you're outdoorsy
is that you own hiking boots. Yes, like you actually
own them. Are you married to an outdoorsy Holly's married
You're with.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
An outdoorsys to a very outdoorsy person. And I am outsidey.
In fact, I'm very outsidey. I like to be outside,
borderline outdoors.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Because you touch the outdoors with your If I can't
go outside, like if the weather's really really terrible, I
actually get quite sad.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Like I like to be in nature, as they say,
But I am not outdoorsy like Brent is. Like I
can camp. I do it once a year with my friends.
Have written a book about that. But I'm not like
encouraging it, you know what I mean. I can go
for a walk. Years ago, before kids, Brent and I
went and did the Larapinta trail and it was amazing
sad and I loved it. But have I done anything
(04:38):
like that since?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
No? Do I encourage it.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No another sign you're outdoorsy, Holly. You can answer this question,
and this is the ultimate question. Do you swim in
the ocean in winter?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I reckon, that's it, because I'll swim in the ocean
on a nice day. If it's a little cold, there's
no way I'm diving in.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I don't go in proper winter, but I do love
to swim in the ocean, and I like to swim
in rivers.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I like to swim rivers.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
No, I like, I like to swim anywhere that isn't
in a swimming pool basically, and so I do really
like that. If it's it's freezing, I'm not going in.
I'm not crazy, but I reckon. I'm outsidey without doorsy
rising yes, but I'm definitely not proper outdoorsy. When Brent
and I talk about, you know, when we no longer
have responsibilities and we do whatever, He's like, I'm going
(05:23):
to go on that twenty eight day high in Western
Australia happen and he gets my joy out of them there,
And I'm like, and I will come and meet you
every now and again as somewhere with a really nice.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Cocktail, a substack newsletter dropped in my inbox this week
with the subject line the maternal instinct is a lie.
And immediately I found that I got my back up,
which was a surprising response, and I want to work
through why with you both. The author of this newsletter,
her name is Sarah Peterson, interviews Chelsea Conner Boy who
(05:54):
has written a book called mother Brain. And here's what
she says. This idea that women's capacity for caregiving is
wholly innate, automatic, and is particular to women is a myth.
She says, maternal instinct paves the way for the belief
that women meant to birth children, that they're equipped with
everything they need without needing any additional time or support.
(06:17):
The myth of the maternal instinct is also, she says,
behind the complete lack of clinical care during the postpartum period.
She believes in the parental brain, something that develops with experience,
which anyone can have access to. And when I read
that nuanced argument, I went, yeah, I think I believe
in the parental brain too. I quite like that it's
also used, she argues, to justify women staying at home
(06:40):
and men going back to work because women have the
maternal instinct rights.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
As we've mentioned several times on the show lately, suddenly
this seems to be a big issue of debate exactly right,
whether or not women should be allowed to have jobs. Holly,
did you find yourself agreeing with connor Boy's argument. Yes,
But I think it's a very dangerous discussion because arguing
against maternal instinct can also be seen as devaluing mother's
(07:06):
work and motherhood in general. And I would never want
to do that because I think parents in general could
do with a lot more recognition and support, and I
don't want to do that. And I can see that
this headline is a trap to get women to walk
into and then fight with each other about it. But
having said all that, from my personal experience, if I'm
(07:28):
telling the absolute, unvarnished truth of whether or not I
thought I had maternal instincts, no, I don't think I did.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
How did you feel you learned it?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I genuinely believe, again for me, only for me, that
when I left the hospital with our first child in
that moment, I had no more idea than my partner,
Brent did about how to keep that baby alive. And
I believe that because at least in the first instance,
that baby was dependent on my body to stay alive.
(08:00):
I had to learn fast, and I had to learn first, Right,
So you're the one who's first in the line to
figure this shit out as much as you can and
then you pass it along, right. But to be honest,
I don't know that I did ever learn it, like
I genuinely think. And this is why, I mean, I
feel very vulnerable admitting this, because it's probably one of
(08:21):
the worst things a woman, a mother can admit, Like
nothing was easy or instinctive about it. Like the only
thing that was easy or instinctive about becoming a mother
for me, and in this I'm very lucky it was
the love right that was definitely there. So the other thing,
if any woman ever admits to how difficult she has
found motherhood, she has to put a massive caveat as
(08:41):
I am doing right now, which is that I adore
my children and they are, you know, the joy of
my life. If anything, the fact that I wasn't very
maternal before I had them has meant that is even
more of a surprise and a delight and a source
of joy and pride for me, no question. But I
never feel more insecure than I do when I'm in
a room of confident mothers, like I just was never
(09:02):
a confident mother. I never knew and I still don't.
Like I'm at the doctor when they were little, I'm
at the doctor when I shouldn't be at the doctor.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm not at the when I should be at the doctor.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I'm not advocating for them in situations when they really
might have needed my advocation. But then on the other hand,
I worried and stressed way too much about things it
didn't matter, Like I felt like I was always getting
it wrong, and I would be often around groups of women,
and even now with teenagers. They bring me their issues
and all people have issues. I'm not crossing any boundaries there.
And most of the time my instinct is I have
(09:33):
no fucking idea. And when I'm around women who seem
to be very confident mothers and just seem to not
I'm not going to say that it's easy for them,
because I don't believe that it's easy for anybody, but
like that they do seem to just know like what
to do, what to feed them, how to be, how
to care.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
And do you think that's an instinct?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I think that maybe can't we accept And I know
this is always my position, and I'm very boring in
this regard that there's a spectrum that involves nature, nurture, science, environment,
that some of us have much stronger maternal instincts than others,
and some women do and some women don't. And like,
as I say, like, I love being a mother, I
absolutely love it, but I'm not a naturally maternal person.
(10:16):
No one ever makes me office mother, right, Like, I
think that deeply people understand that if they were going
to cast me in the role of office mom, den mother, friend,
group mother, they would get eaten by a bear.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like I just I think they deeply know that, whereas.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We all know some women don't we who were just
they oosee it?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And so I think, of course there is a maternal instinct,
but I don't think that every woman has it to
the same amount. And I do think that parental instincts
and parental brain can be learnt and can be learned
by anybody.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
I have one hundred thoughts on that. But first, what
do you think him?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
When I read this, I felt betrayed because I was
always thought similar to your point, Holly. I felt like
even all my friends who don't have kids. I just
knew who out of us would be really really good mothers,
and who out of I'd be like, I'm not too sure.
And I was in that I'm not too sure camp
because just when there's like a baby in our group,
(11:16):
the way my friends react to that baby is so
different to the way I react. And I've always been
told that if I were to have kids, when I
have a kid, that will immediately change. You'll immediately get it,
You'll immediately know exactly what to do.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
You'll get that.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Mother love all babies, but you'll love your hair.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And I was like, Okay, that's fine, I'm chill now.
And then I read this and I was like, wait
a minute, what if that doesn't happen to me. It
kind of scares me to the point of like, are
we telling women that just as long as you have
a child, like you'll actually get it and it'll be
fine after that, because that's what I've been told.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
This is my theory is that we're potentially confusing two things.
On the one hand, there's maternal instinct, and on the
other hand, there is this picture symbol of the ideal mother. Right,
no question and I think we're sort of conflating the two.
So I think it's a lot about the definition of
what the maternal instinct is. Because what you just described hole,
(12:10):
I thought was the maternal instinct. So the sense you're
always doing it wrong, that's a maternal instinct, I don't
think it is. I see, Yeah, that's interesting, right, is
that I feel as though, I mean.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think it's a common maternal experience, anxiety. But I
think the idea that you'll know best, you always really
know your child, no one knows them better than you do.
You'll know when it's serious, you'll know, well the cries mean,
you'll know.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's all the stuff that is sold to us as
the paternal.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
So I looked it up and it said maternal instinct.
It refers to the natural and inherent tendency of a
mother to nurture and care for her child. Right, Because
you spoke about knowing you love the baby, and for
a lot of people, a lot of people, I know,
that wasn't the first feeling, exactly the very that's very common,
right experience was the first feeling was terror and like
and they say I felt protective. I knew if someone
(12:58):
walked into that room, I'd say, I'm looking after this
this baby, But was it love? Not really?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
So there is this incredible spectrum, and I think the
issue is that we keep trying to make motherhood universal,
and the experience of motherhood is not universal. It is
so specific. But I remember walking through the door with
Luna in her capsule and putting her on the floor
and CHILEI the dogs started kind of wandering towards her,
and I have never in my life had that feeling.
I can't even explain it.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It was like.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I saw flashes of what was going to happen. It
was protective, but it was more than that. It was
enormous anxiety. It was all of those things. And I
worry that there is something very specific that happens when
you carry a baby and you have that baby, right,
there is something specific. We know that there are hormonal, biological,
(13:44):
neurological changes and that's matrescence, and there's an incredible emerging field.
Does that mean that if you don't do those things
then you don't have a parental instinct?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Absolutely not, because to be and I don't want to again,
I don't want to ever make it sound like I'm
d value in motherhood because the last thing I'd want
to do, but feeling protective over my new baby.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Brent was also protective over that.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And that's the thing is that we talk about maternal instinct,
I think because we're using it to kind of prop
up this ideal mother thing, which is an absolute lie
that has been used as a weapon against women to
be this ever giving, ever nurturing.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Like you have to do everything because you have the mother,
and also self sacrificing. I mean, how many times do
you hear people, you know, famous people being interviewed and
they're like, my mother gave up everything, everything so that
I could have my dream, and that's that ideal, whereas
I never say that about fathers.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
By the way, paternal instinct, which is equally a thing,
is I would say exactly the same. I think it
can manifest slightly differently. But there is all this research
too about in the case of adoption or the case
of grandparents, like the carrying of a baby close to
your body releases these hormones that make you super super protective.
And my worry with undermining the whole idea of a
(14:59):
maternal instinct is that mothers are more anxious today than
they've ever been in all of history. And is that
because they've been undermined? Is there a way in which
all the expertise and the intellectualism and the books and
the podcasts and the bla and you need to have
a PhD In all of the things, and if you
learned to breastfeed yet and makes women feel like they
(15:21):
are so fundamentally incapable of doing any of this that
they need all the advice all the time from the experts.
And there is some truth. I mean, I had to
learn manually how to breastfeed, like there was nothing instinctive
about that, and I was never good at it and
I had to stop. But I think that there are
some parts of reacting to a baby's cry or whatever
(15:44):
it is that maybe mothers and fathers need to trust
themselves a little bit more and that might actually help
with the anxiety and to kind of sit there and go.
And I was reassured by some health professionals it's like
you've got to kind of trust that you know what
you're doing. Something has happened to you in your brain.
The circuits have all changed that have programmed you to
(16:05):
try and look after this thing. What's helped me is
to go the guilt and the anxiety in all of
those things the second to all of them kick in,
and for me, they've been in the realm of normal.
I know for some people they aren't. It's like, oh,
this is helping me, this is helping me. That image
I had of this how horrible thing just happening to Luna,
I'm going to file that away as my brain doing
its job.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think also, what maternal instinct refers to is it
doesn't also consider like women who choose to adopt. But
what this interview did was that it shows that there
is scientific evidence that people who are around a baby
in those initial phases there is a change in their
brain chemistry, but there hasn't been enough research into it
to actually explain what that change is and how it
(16:48):
like manifests. So I want to know, with both of
your partners, do you know when they had that change?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I think it was gradual, as I think it was.
And maybe that's how issue too, is that maternal instinct
just builders this thing that is imbued upon you the
second you have a baby, Like I don't think that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I genuinely think and one of the examples is like
so for my second child, obviously I was more comp
I still wouldn't have described myselves as confident mother. But
the literal reason why is because I'd learned it, I've
done it before. And that's the same for my partner,
so he for And again I don't want to talk
in generalizations about specific experiences, but Brent was also a
(17:25):
farther like he adored the baby. You know, and you
have to this is a team effort, and I've talked
about that lots of times, like you've got to trust
them to know what they're doing and learn what they're
doing because all the things you're learning, and you've never
been on such a steep learning curve as you are
in those early days of parenthood. They also have to learn.
But if you don't let them learn, they won't learn,
and you will be the keeper of all that knowledge.
(17:47):
I do think that anyone can learn it. I agree
with you, Jesse about almost everything you say about the
fact that I think we've undermined instinct to a point
in terms of the constant and this is I mean,
it's capitalism.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Let's face it.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They want you to buy the books and buy the things,
and buy all the products that are supposed to make
things easier and all of those things.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
It's also access to information.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It is, and so I do agree with all of
making you anxious. But for me, I don't think it
was necessarily that, because I just genuinely believe that we've
created an ideal that can undermine mothers a lot, which
is that you'll know what to do, it will be natural.
A good mother does this that are so deep in
us that it's really hard to unpick it. And I
(18:29):
think that maybe some women do. And I genuinely believe that,
Like the point of this article was sort of points
saying that the motherhood myth, the maternal instinct myth, as
she calls it, is like a trap to keep you
at home and keep the status quo in place and
allow men to not have to have anything to do
with child rearing and all those things. I think that
there's a lot of truth in that. And I think
(18:51):
there's an enormous amount of truth that for many, many
women it's the most satisfying and important thing they'll ever do,
and that they'll get so much self esteem out of
being able to do it well.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So I think two things can be true and I
think there's no question that the culture has given us
an impossible ideal to live up to, and I think
it's probably harder to live up to for some women
than others.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
That's what I genuinely think.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And also just I feel like sometimes when we talk
about maternal instinct, sometimes I think when I am around kids,
I always like grapple with is this like a maternal
instinct or just an instinct because I'm an adult and
they're a kid. Like, for example, if I'm at a
bar or at a pub and there's like a little kid,
they should be a kid at bath so there's like
a little like kind of kid running around. I'm just
(19:37):
staring at that kid because I'm always like, oh my god,
it's going to bump it on our table, it's gonna
run over there. Even when Luna came into the office,
Like you just can't help yourself from like watching kids
and seeing what they're doing and making sure they're not
hurting for yourself, And it just comes so naturally. And
I feel like that's with everyone, regardless they're a parent.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Or not, or their gender, oh the gender, not even
knowing who that kid is.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Yeah, Like it just comes.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
And you know, I wonder if the maternal instinct has
kind of been used to undermine the village too. Like
then it's sort of going, well, the mother will do
it best because it's also innate to her. Where As
you know, lunar is in the care of lots of
different people, and some of them have had kids before,
a lot of them haven't, And that instinct, whatever you
(20:19):
want to call it, you've got a trust that that
will come in all the different caregivers because they build
a relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Man keeping.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
You're probably hearing that word everywhere at the minute, and
there are a whole lot of others that are all
describing the same thing, the realities of dating men.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Emily Vernham's going to take us through it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
So moving on from women to men and the women
who date them. Maybe this week you've seen a lot
of man keeping talk around. We discussed this on the
pod a while ago last year. I think mankeeping describes
the caretaking role that women often play for the men
in their lives. We're did a lot of generalizing today,
by the way, a great deal of generalizing, looking after
(21:01):
their emotional needs, bolstering their confidence, supporting their well being.
It's not just necessarily about doing more around the house,
but that base you're the one who will remind them
to go to the doctors, tell them to call their
mother on her birthday, all of that kind.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Of I love my dad, but I think I man
keep my dad like I think that he's someone I
have to look after.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
There was an article in The Guardian recently called are
heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded
up a whole lot of other examples of terms like
man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically
the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.
For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to
describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the
(21:43):
mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, do you relate?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I think I related more to this in my early
twenties when I first started dating, and I think a
lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're
new to dating or they've come after a breakup and
they're in the new world of dating, it is quite
sudden experience to see how many people are so different
to you and your friends, to that out there that
(22:10):
are now in the dating pool, and it's something that
I feel like now I've just gotten so so used
to that it's like not even a thing for me anymore.
Like you just have to be okay with knowing that
some people you'll date are just going to be quite shit.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism or
hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual
woman and going, I don't know how much longer I
can do this? Because that was a sense. There was
a great New York Times piece about it, and that's
what the author essentially said, is it her friends look
at each other and go, I'm off it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, every single situation, ship breakup, which a lot of
women go through, I feel like I go through that
all over again, and then I delete the apps and
they come back like six months later. Only recently. I
want to read you out some texts that I got
from a man. Oh please, I was seeing this guy.
I think we went on about four or five dates.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I have a feeling.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I talked about him on the podcast, talked about tying
one on the podcast, and we were talking and he
wanted to date, and I was like yeah, and He's like,
she would be exclusive, and I was like, yeah, if
you want, Like I mean, I'm still in the apps.
I know you're still in the apps because your profile
still there, and he's like yeah yeah. And then two
days after that, I just messaged him and I was like,
are you free on the weekend and he said a
day later, which was the Saturday, he said, I'm at
(23:27):
work all weekend. I finished had six tomorrow, but we've
got lots of bookings in because he's a bartender, so.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
It could be later. Sorry, I'll keep you in the loop.
Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Okay. So in this New York Times article it told
a story and this woman was talking about one of
her friends and she'd gone on a third date with
a lawyer and her friend said to her, he's really
really sweet and nice to me and good at sex.
No doubt something humiliating a night marriage will occur, so
which I just really related with anyway, And then he
went he was really busy with his word. Men are
(23:59):
all they're so busy with their works, so I'm like women.
And she ended up saying she would message him and
he would just go days and days, and she kind
of ended up saying, Hey, is it hang all right?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Like you?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
No, you take six days to respond, It was just
taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said sorry for keeping
you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said the
complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able to
escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship, and
this friend clarified that she had not been asking to
escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.
(24:32):
He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were
obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason
I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had
this happen about seven times. It was like clockwork.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
I feel like he just read out my diary.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yes, of I would date people and then four months,
like not two days, four months down the track, and
then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird
or trying to make a plan or something, and I
would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it
would go I think we want different things, and I
was like, I just want to know if for hanging
out on Saturday, and then they'd be like, you clearly
(25:08):
want a relationship, And I was like, I do, but
I didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Friends, he's just not that into you.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Like, come on, that's the end of that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Why all he's just read like if they're not texting
you back, if he's texting you back saying we've got
a lot of bookings in tonight.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Not sure? Maybe like he's not that into you. There's
the end of that conversation.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Like if he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if
he was working till midnight, he would try and get
around there as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be
getting someone else to finish his shift for him.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So the issue is that what's wrong with them that
they don't like?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario is true,
this kind of premises like men have gotten worse because
as women have been able to ask for more of
what they want, because they've got more independence, they've got
more choices, they've got what we know, yays, we discuss
all the time. The dialogue is kind of they don't
(26:02):
have to put up with this shitty behavior anymore, Like
that's generally the vibe, right, Like yeah, and so I
threw away the second from the City Line. But say,
like when that show started in the late nineties and noughties,
it was like women tying themselves in knots to believe
something that wasn't true about this guy seemed more urgent
than it does now.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Isn't it interesting though, that show had not a sprinkle
of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well, it
was about that they still believed in, like finding the person,
whereas now there's this real nihilism when it comes to.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Some of the characters.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always a little bit of
that with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had
a lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had
a lot of hee Like. Anyway, we're not talking about
sex and the City, but it seems interesting that we've
changed the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,
you do have all the choices in the world, right,
(27:00):
you are a catch.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I'm here to tell you.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Stop crying, no question, right, and yet you're you're still
trying to decipher what this stupid fucking text message means.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex
and the city like they started the taxicab theory right.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I
would bet my house on that theory.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
I agree. I think that theory is so true.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will
go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.
And depending on who they're just dating at the time
they're ready to settle down, that's the person musical chess.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
But women, women have a light to your lights just
have to be on at the same time.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I think women are more and I think this is
where the taxicab theory is making men really confuse now,
because women, as you said whole, have more agency over
their lives and dating, and they're becoming more picky with
dating in a good way, saying that they're going to
look for the right person. So their lights only turns
on on the person that they feel like they're going
to spend the rest of their life with. For example,
(28:05):
I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely not going
to marry you, but you're fun right now, so I'm
going to keep dating you. If his taxi cab light
turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out like
that's not me, of course. And now these men all
we have on these apps are these men who are
really confused, going my lights on, my lights on, but
no one wants to date me, And they aren't able
to figure out why no one wants to date them.
They just think all they have to do is turn
(28:26):
their lights on and they'll be a woman there waiting
for them.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he
doesn't want to go on another date with you and
has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many
bookings he's got in his bar.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
His light's not on, his lights on on, No, his isn't.
And I think that my theory is that there is
this gap between our desire and our politics right, and
that we would have this desire. I felt like I was.
I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about
what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less
(28:59):
independent or less. I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,
and I didn't like how some men made me feel.
They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I
don't like this. I feel in control in so many
avenues of my life.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
And you're amaking for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday
night plans and they were like.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Whoa, I don't want to get married crazy.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I was like, how dare you make me feel like that?
And there was this term in the New York Times
article I loved, which was I'm not going to be
able to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the
condition of being unable to put words to emotions, and
it's about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.
Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring
(29:41):
up the issue. Again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,
ask men to talk about it, and then it gives
way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,
which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand
even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I just have to throw a little spanner in the
works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual
for me to be when the desire is mismatched in
a dating situation, like he likes you more than you
like him, or you like him more than he likes you.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Neither of us are good at communicating that.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Emily, you might be because you're very good. You're quite
good being straightforward. But I know that in my dating life,
if a guy was asking me if I wanted to
go out on Saturday night and I didn't, did I
say was I emotionally super mature and say like, hey,
you know, really, I think I appreciate you asking me
and blah blah blah blah blah, but no, I don't
think we've got a future together. Of course I didn't.
(30:36):
That was too awkward. I would have said exactly the
same thing. We've got too many bookings on Saturday night.
Now I'll call you sometime next week. I think that
women are confrontational avoidant too. But the thing is is
that we tell ourselves a different story because we're always
casting ourselves in the person who's wanting a thing and
that men have got the thing we want. So we
feel like in our dating stories it's always them saying no,
(30:57):
and we're saying but I want, but I want, and
they're saying no, when actually think like, if you're really
honest with yourself, don't you think there have been lots
of times where you haven't treated a person in your
daily life with the absolute respect They deserve.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Oh, absolutely not. But I do think examples of that
there is something. And this is not just in dating,
This is in relationships, This is in couples that have
been together for forty years. I think this idea that
some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I
can't work out whether that is something innate or whether
(31:33):
that is something There's definitely a socialization element to it
where I think that men get into some situations and
go I don't even know what to label this feeling.
And for women who are very used to articulating how
they feel and talking to their big group of females
and something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since
they were very little like, I think that there is
(31:54):
a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's
greater than it's ever been.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think it's massive now because men don't talk to
their friends about things, and it's so evident when you
go on that first date with a guy because exactly
I think I even talked about this in the podcast
where I was asking this guy question after question enough
to question He was like, what else do you have
to ask me?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Instead of asking me a question about.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, And I think it's because it's usually the first
time he's just a dick, he's a dick. But it's
also usually the first time where they've actually talked about
themselves and had someone interested in their life. One time,
I went on a date with a guy and he
literally said to me, no one's ever asked me that before.
The question was what does your sister do for work?
(32:35):
I genuinely believe no one's actually halstened that before.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Weird. I want you to tell me though, back to this,
because so many examples in these stories are about a
woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,
and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment
that his light isn't on or that they're not matched
or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?
What should the guy have said? And what do you
(33:01):
say to a guy who's saying I want to go
out again on Thursday and you're like, no.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
What I do?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Now?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You're right, It's definitely something I didn't do when I
first started dating, because I'd always be like, oh, I
don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
But what I do now is that after a date,
I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy
getting to know you.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
I feel like we're not compatible, good luck.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
That's very mature, instead of making them go like waiting
a few days knowing because I know that I would
do it, and I know that if they like me
a lot and I don't like them, I know they'll
spend the next two few days going should I message?
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Should I not?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,
do you want to hang out this weekend? And then
I'll take two days to reply, and then I'll be like, hey,
just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been
really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit
to do to someone. I think with online dating now
is that it's given you the excuse where you can
have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.
You have the excuse of it being like so much
(33:57):
more casual and so much more chill. I know a
lot of women don't like doing it in person because
I'm like, you can feel unsafe at sometimes, and I
think just like message them, message them like straight after
or a day after and be like, I've been thinking
about it. I don't want to see you again, but
I'd much prefer that then, kind of like making what
I think is happening a bigger deal in my head
for it to just be crushed with the ghosting, the confusion.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah, after the break, we are absolutely bursting with recommendations
for your weekend.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Follow the link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
To get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
It is Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Holly, what do you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Have for us?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So you know how Jesse likes to recommend the most
obvious things. Yep, she tells me I do that, but
like she's like.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Have you watched Drive to Survive.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
There's show called mad Men that's eight years later she
discovers the thing and then thenoining thing is is that?
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Then everyone watches it?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Like now all the other ladders, are watching drivers vive
because you talked about it five years after.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Good Luck going to the Melbourne Grand Prix.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
And then oh, anyway, I have a new discovery. It's
this little known app that teaches you a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Have you heard about this and can teach you a
language lingo?
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I thought I was telling people last week they had
too many apps.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
We did.
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Technology because the reason I'm recommending this is it's true
that last week we did talk about how we've got
too many apps, and I said I had one hundred
and thirty five.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
And the outlouders have all been in the group, so
how many they've got They got one hundred and eighty six.
I now have one hundred and thirty six because iad dueling?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Are you ad life crisis?
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Are you going to a country to learn?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I came back from my holiday where we went overseas
and we went to Italy, and I'm like, I am
learning Italian before I step foot in that country again.
I'm frecking learning Italian because I never feel more stupid
and dumb. Yeah, and you're like a giant middle aged
baby than when I'm standing in a shop behind my
(36:28):
mother who can speak Italian by the way, or whoever
who is making a real effort to communicate in the language,
being respectful of the culture.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
And I'm they're pointing at things and going Holla.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Bread, bread, bread, bread.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
How am I as old as I am?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I only speak English. It's embarrassing. There are lots
of people in my life who speak lots of languages,
and I'm like, anyway, I'm time poor, time poor. I've
got broccoli look after I apparently I have children to
look after too, but has discussed not very good on
the maternal instincts front. Juliko, you can do six minutes
a day, and I'm doing six minutes today of Italian. Mate,
(37:11):
I'm going to be fluent by the end of this.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I give you two months.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
In two weeks. On this show, I'm gonna ask Collie
how duweling. She's going to say, you were what? And
it's going to be like the time Ollie started meditating
and when she forgot this.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Is I'm going to open it where you have to
re download it every time because it just offloads on
your phone.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Maybe this is my meditation.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
As I've been sitting there and I go, right, I've
got six minutes and the little stupid bird pops up
on my phone and goes, don't forget your Italian lesson.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Then I'm like, oh goody, and I go over there,
and firstly, that's a bird.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And it's trying to encourage me to be a better person.
And I'm getting on board with the owl.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Say something go on for sure, no working.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Sorry to all.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
The Italian out louders and all the out louders, I
tell you, I am going to have learned how to
con like a proper person very soon, thanks to the owl.
It's a little done app called DUELINGO. You'll find it
in the ass.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Is it free?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
It is the version I'm doing. It is free.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And the way it works just quickly is that every
day little lesson. And some of it is like say
this into the phone. Some of it is translate this thing.
I think I chose too high setting. I was a
bit more ambitious.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Some of the sentences they make you learn right off
the battle weird though.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
It's I like your hat. I'm out of everything I
need to learn in this moment. I like your Hat's probably.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
More also, it thinks were all Americans, because it's like
a lot of the things it wants you to say
is I'm sorry, I don't understand your an American. I'm sorry,
I still don't understand you Australia.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Okay, my recommendation I have two. The first one I
thought was a bit of a cop out, and I
will say, this is my last vegetable recommendation.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
She's trying to bog up my vegetable.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
I am, I am, You're being healthy. The people liked
the broccoli recommendation. Have you heard a carrot face recommends carrots, kale? Orange?
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Kind of?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I'm growing carrots, Jesse.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Okay, I'll tell you how to.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I don't know when they're ready.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
That's one of the problems that happen. I'm like, how
do I know when the carrot is ready?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Anyway?
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Okay, Well, what you have to do is like you
do your olive oil and your salt and your pepper right,
and you put it in the oven really hot. We're roasting,
and we're roasting. And then halfway through this is what
Nagi does, because she makes us all into little chefs,
is you put garlic on it. Because if you put
garlic on it too early, then you burn the garlic.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Roasted vegetables are really the secret to everything.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
They are, and so you put it on and then
you have them. And we've been having our broccoli and
our carrots without aldi spanicopter.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It's just the same recipe as the broccoli one is.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Pretty much except the one with the broccoli had lemon
and parmesan.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
If you remember, you've basically discovered that vegetables don't have
to be boring.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I like, exactly, vegetables are actually young. Okay, But I
have another recommendation which is the best thing I read
on the internet this week. You know how you said
you four hours of TikTok before me. I've now gone
to four hours of substack.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
You are a better pastor I am.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I am.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Now there's a rite and write some of the best
stuff on the internet. He wrote this article that's been
republished everywhere called how social Media shortens your life, and
he says everything.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Yeah says on social media my four hour TikTok.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Yeah, every social media user has experienced the theft of
their time. You may log on to quickly check your notifications,
and before you know it, half an hour has gone
by and you're still on the platform, unable to account
for where the time went. The phenomenon even has a name,
a thirty minute ick Factor, and he goes on to
explain how the experience of time works and what social
media is doing to our sense of past, present, and future.
(40:51):
And he's written about also how insane it is that
you can be on TikTok and flick and it's like,
tell me what the last video was he watched, or
tell me what the last thing was, and like you
it's just yeah, it is like you are in this
temporal place that is so bad for our brains, which
we all know to be true. But it was a
really interesting analysis of how social media makes you feel
and what you can do to make yourself really feel
(41:13):
time and all the like variations in activities and all
of that, and what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Okay, I have a confession, and I feel like you
guys are not gonna like this recommendation. Oh no, I've
been on the mystery toy bandwagon.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Oh like the what la boo boos? My dad?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Can you have a conversation like yes, okay, she only
likes buying things that she doesn't know what they are.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I cannot even explain it. So mystery toys you might
have seen all of you would have seen labooboos all
over the internets. Basically, these stores, they're massive in Asia.
They've only just taken off here in Australia like eight
months later, and there's like this big store, like a
toy store, where all these little boxes are wrapped up
in these mystery boxes where you actually don't know what
(41:54):
is inside them. So they have like different series of toys.
So you have like powerpuff Girls toys, you have Stitch toys,
you have La Boo Boos.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
And the thing is is like in each.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Series of toys, there's different toys you can get amongst
that series. So you can get different versions of Stitch,
different versions our puff Girls. Yes, but you don't know
which one you're going to get. Okay, I'm not saying
collect like people collect these. I'm not saying you have
to collect them. But I was having a particular bad day.
I think it was after this text message from my man,
and I was like I just need to feel really
(42:26):
good about something, and I walked over to PopMart in
the CBD. It is packed with people twenty four to
seven and they're now making it two levels. I bought
one toy from the series.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
I bought this series called.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Cry Baby, which is very fitting with my mood. There
was like monster series, and the thing is you have
to choose a series where you like all of them
in them because I don't want to be disappointed by one.
So I got mine and then I came into the
office and I opened it up and I've never felt
so much joy in that week. And when I opened
that toy, you feel like a child, like on Christmas
Day when you're opening a present that you don't know
(43:02):
what it's going to be.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Can I ask questions? What do you then do with it?
What do you do with it?
Speaker 5 (43:06):
That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So the one I got, I have it on my
desk and I kind of just look at it and
it's really cute. My friend got me one which is
like a Mickey Mouse one that was a key ring
that I put on my handbag.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
This is exactly what my fifteen year old daughter does.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
And then it like fell off my handbag in the
city and this man tapped me on the shoulder and
I was like, what, don't tap me on the shoulder
and he was like, you dropped that, and I was like,
that's the most embarrassing thing I could have ever dropped,
and then just like it was this white, little fluffy
thing that was rolling away from me.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
We could talk about this for a year. It is
genuinely could, because it's the extension of childhood. It's rampant consumerism,
it's gamification, and there are lots of those shops of
walking distance of our office.
Speaker 5 (43:44):
It's good, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Which ones are you obsessed with?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Again?
Speaker 5 (43:47):
What's the line the cry Baby Monster series?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Okay, I'll leave it there. I'm so sorry, am I
feel like I've been very judging. I've been very judgy.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
I feel like this whole episode I just aird.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Essentially, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
I don't want to be judging, but I'm like, oh no,
that is all we've got time for today. Out louders,
massive thank you to all of you, and to our
amazing team who help us put the show together, and
to you Emily Vernam you guys read this out.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
A big thank you to our team, our group executive
producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Emilin Gazillis.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Our senior audio producers Leah Porge's video producer Josh Green,
and our junior content producers Coca and Tessa.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Before we go, we actually have a subscriber episode that
we dropped yesterday and it is a series of dilemmas.
One who's started there is one dilemma, and I just
feel like we've all been in this situation where this
woman employed her friend who's an architect to help her
on the project that is her home at the moment,
and things have gone very very badly. Also, are you
(44:49):
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And if there is something the out louders have, it is.
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Opinions, really good opinions too.
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Friday, the fifteenth of August.
My name is Hollywayne, right, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Vernham.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And here's what's on our agender for today.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Is maternal instinct really a lie? I have a feeling
that Holly and I passionately disagree about this.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Quite possibly mankeeping, hetero fatalism, and her neutic labor.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Say that, right?
Speaker 4 (00:47):
I think you did.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
There's a whole lot of fancy new words to describe
the same thing. The realities of dating men. Emily Vernon
is going to translate.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
And we have some recommendations for your weekend, including a
mysterious new hobby, a hack in learning a new skill,
and turning a basic bitch vegetable into a delicious dish.
But for a few nights ago, I was scrolling on TikTok,
like the four hours I set aside every night for
my TikTok scroll, and I came across this crator named Brandon,
and he spoke to my soul. He was walking alongside
(01:21):
this river and he was talking into the camera about
how he's an outsidey person, not an outdoorsy person. Okay,
And I immediately clicked into another video of his where
he explained what he meant by that.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
This is what he said, We.
Speaker 6 (01:35):
As a society are still not knowing the difference between
outdoorsy and outsidey. Okay. Outdoorsy is nature for adventure. Outsidey
is nature for leisure. So for example, backpacking no bever
g nails, yes, swimming in the ocean, no, strolling upon
the shore, yes, mountaineering no, Mary.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Oliver, Yes, I love this so much. I have some
questions camping outsidey or outdoors outdoors outdoorsy definitely, but glamping
outsidey okay, because I I think I'm outside And the
reason for this is that I went on a three
(02:18):
day hike to Berney Island, remember that, right.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, I've been on a similar line.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yes, yes, because we're hikers and we're very outdoorsy. That's
what it looks like.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
But the beauty of.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
This hike was that it was an outsidey hike.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
It was what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Okay? So you go and have a shower, and when
you're in the shower, it's open and you look out
onto the wilderness. But the shower's warm. You got your
shampoo and conditioner, and you gotta the last of champagne
on the windows. That is outside.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's outsidey.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I did the same thing. So you walk, so you
do the outdoorsy bit, but you stay every night in
a beautiful lot.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
And that's why outside a bit. And there's wine.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Yeah, so I think I know what my line is. Okay,
I am outside because I need a coffee, preferably Barista made.
And I think that the problem with going and camping,
like my friend recently went to Canada camped the whole time. Wow,
way too close to the bears. Needs best brain stuff.
I was like, I'm happy to see the bear from
my cab, from my hotel. I don't need to hear
(03:14):
the bear chloring it the thing? And where do you
get your Barista coffee? What are you am outside?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Or I definitely outside the borderline? Insidey outside?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Barely walk every day?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I do outside, do my outside walk. But the way
I know if you're someone's outsider versus outdoorsy is how
they approach holidaying, Like what are your activities you plan
for your holiday? Are you a hotel family or your
hiking family. My biggest fear is marrying into a family
that like to go to walks on their holidays for
no reason.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
And they have Like I think a sign you're outdoorsy
is that you own hiking boots. Yes, like you actually
own them. Are you married to an outdoorsy Holly's married
You're with.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
An outdoorsys to a very outdoorsy person. And I am outsidey.
In fact, I'm very outsidey. I like to be outside,
borderline outdoors.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Because you touch the outdoors with your If I can't
go outside, like if the weather's really really terrible, I
actually get quite sad.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Like I like to be in nature, as they say,
But I am not outdoorsy like Brent is. Like I
can camp. I do it once a year with my friends.
Have written a book about that. But I'm not like
encouraging it, you know what I mean. I can go
for a walk. Years ago, before kids, Brent and I
went and did the Larapinta trail and it was amazing
sad and I loved it. But have I done anything
(04:38):
like that since?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
No? Do I encourage it.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No another sign you're outdoorsy, Holly. You can answer this question,
and this is the ultimate question. Do you swim in
the ocean in winter?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I reckon, that's it, because I'll swim in the ocean
on a nice day. If it's a little cold, there's
no way I'm diving in.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I don't go in proper winter, but I do love
to swim in the ocean, and I like to swim
in rivers.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I like to swim rivers.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
No, I like, I like to swim anywhere that isn't
in a swimming pool basically, and so I do really
like that. If it's it's freezing, I'm not going in.
I'm not crazy, but I reckon. I'm outsidey without doorsy
rising yes, but I'm definitely not proper outdoorsy. When Brent
and I talk about, you know, when we no longer
have responsibilities and we do whatever, He's like, I'm going
(05:23):
to go on that twenty eight day high in Western
Australia happen and he gets my joy out of them there,
And I'm like, and I will come and meet you
every now and again as somewhere with a really nice.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Cocktail, a substack newsletter dropped in my inbox this week
with the subject line the maternal instinct is a lie.
And immediately I found that I got my back up,
which was a surprising response, and I want to work
through why with you both. The author of this newsletter,
her name is Sarah Peterson, interviews Chelsea Conner Boy who
(05:54):
has written a book called mother Brain. And here's what
she says. This idea that women's capacity for caregiving is
wholly innate, automatic, and is particular to women is a myth.
She says, maternal instinct paves the way for the belief
that women meant to birth children, that they're equipped with
everything they need without needing any additional time or support.
(06:17):
The myth of the maternal instinct is also, she says,
behind the complete lack of clinical care during the postpartum period.
She believes in the parental brain, something that develops with experience,
which anyone can have access to. And when I read
that nuanced argument, I went, yeah, I think I believe
in the parental brain too. I quite like that it's
also used, she argues, to justify women staying at home
(06:40):
and men going back to work because women have the
maternal instinct rights.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
As we've mentioned several times on the show lately, suddenly
this seems to be a big issue of debate exactly right,
whether or not women should be allowed to have jobs. Holly,
did you find yourself agreeing with connor Boy's argument. Yes,
But I think it's a very dangerous discussion because arguing
against maternal instinct can also be seen as devaluing mother's
(07:06):
work and motherhood in general. And I would never want
to do that because I think parents in general could
do with a lot more recognition and support, and I
don't want to do that. And I can see that
this headline is a trap to get women to walk
into and then fight with each other about it. But
having said all that, from my personal experience, if I'm
(07:28):
telling the absolute, unvarnished truth of whether or not I
thought I had maternal instincts, no, I don't think I did.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
How did you feel you learned it?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I genuinely believe, again for me, only for me, that
when I left the hospital with our first child in
that moment, I had no more idea than my partner,
Brent did about how to keep that baby alive. And
I believe that because at least in the first instance,
that baby was dependent on my body to stay alive.
(08:00):
I had to learn fast, and I had to learn first, Right,
So you're the one who's first in the line to
figure this shit out as much as you can and
then you pass it along, right. But to be honest,
I don't know that I did ever learn it, like
I genuinely think. And this is why, I mean, I
feel very vulnerable admitting this, because it's probably one of
(08:21):
the worst things a woman, a mother can admit, Like
nothing was easy or instinctive about it. Like the only
thing that was easy or instinctive about becoming a mother
for me, and in this I'm very lucky it was
the love right that was definitely there. So the other thing,
if any woman ever admits to how difficult she has
found motherhood, she has to put a massive caveat as
(08:41):
I am doing right now, which is that I adore
my children and they are, you know, the joy of
my life. If anything, the fact that I wasn't very
maternal before I had them has meant that is even
more of a surprise and a delight and a source
of joy and pride for me, no question. But I
never feel more insecure than I do when I'm in
a room of confident mothers, like I just was never
(09:02):
a confident mother. I never knew and I still don't.
Like I'm at the doctor when they were little, I'm
at the doctor when I shouldn't be at the doctor.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm not at the when I should be at the doctor.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I'm not advocating for them in situations when they really
might have needed my advocation. But then on the other hand,
I worried and stressed way too much about things it
didn't matter, Like I felt like I was always getting
it wrong, and I would be often around groups of women,
and even now with teenagers. They bring me their issues
and all people have issues. I'm not crossing any boundaries there.
And most of the time my instinct is I have
(09:33):
no fucking idea. And when I'm around women who seem
to be very confident mothers and just seem to not
I'm not going to say that it's easy for them,
because I don't believe that it's easy for anybody, but
like that they do seem to just know like what
to do, what to feed them, how to be, how
to care.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
And do you think that's an instinct?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I think that maybe can't we accept And I know
this is always my position, and I'm very boring in
this regard that there's a spectrum that involves nature, nurture, science, environment,
that some of us have much stronger maternal instincts than others,
and some women do and some women don't. And like,
as I say, like, I love being a mother, I
absolutely love it, but I'm not a naturally maternal person.
(10:16):
No one ever makes me office mother, right, Like, I
think that deeply people understand that if they were going
to cast me in the role of office mom, den mother, friend,
group mother, they would get eaten by a bear.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Like I just I think they deeply know that, whereas.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
We all know some women don't we who were just
they oosee it?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And so I think, of course there is a maternal instinct,
but I don't think that every woman has it to
the same amount. And I do think that parental instincts
and parental brain can be learnt and can be learned
by anybody.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
I have one hundred thoughts on that. But first, what
do you think him?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
When I read this, I felt betrayed because I was
always thought similar to your point, Holly. I felt like
even all my friends who don't have kids. I just
knew who out of us would be really really good mothers,
and who out of I'd be like, I'm not too sure.
And I was in that I'm not too sure camp
because just when there's like a baby in our group,
(11:16):
the way my friends react to that baby is so
different to the way I react. And I've always been
told that if I were to have kids, when I
have a kid, that will immediately change. You'll immediately get it,
You'll immediately know exactly what to do.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
You'll get that.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Mother love all babies, but you'll love your hair.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And I was like, Okay, that's fine, I'm chill now.
And then I read this and I was like, wait
a minute, what if that doesn't happen to me. It
kind of scares me to the point of like, are
we telling women that just as long as you have
a child, like you'll actually get it and it'll be
fine after that, because that's what I've been told.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
This is my theory is that we're potentially confusing two things.
On the one hand, there's maternal instinct, and on the
other hand, there is this picture symbol of the ideal mother. Right,
no question and I think we're sort of conflating the two.
So I think it's a lot about the definition of
what the maternal instinct is. Because what you just described hole,
(12:10):
I thought was the maternal instinct. So the sense you're
always doing it wrong, that's a maternal instinct, I don't
think it is. I see, Yeah, that's interesting, right, is
that I feel as though, I mean.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think it's a common maternal experience, anxiety. But I
think the idea that you'll know best, you always really
know your child, no one knows them better than you do.
You'll know when it's serious, you'll know, well the cries mean,
you'll know.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's all the stuff that is sold to us as
the paternal.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
So I looked it up and it said maternal instinct.
It refers to the natural and inherent tendency of a
mother to nurture and care for her child. Right, Because
you spoke about knowing you love the baby, and for
a lot of people, a lot of people, I know,
that wasn't the first feeling, exactly the very that's very common,
right experience was the first feeling was terror and like
and they say I felt protective. I knew if someone
(12:58):
walked into that room, I'd say, I'm looking after this
this baby, But was it love? Not really?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
So there is this incredible spectrum, and I think the
issue is that we keep trying to make motherhood universal,
and the experience of motherhood is not universal. It is
so specific. But I remember walking through the door with
Luna in her capsule and putting her on the floor
and CHILEI the dogs started kind of wandering towards her,
and I have never in my life had that feeling.
I can't even explain it.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It was like.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I saw flashes of what was going to happen. It
was protective, but it was more than that. It was
enormous anxiety. It was all of those things. And I
worry that there is something very specific that happens when
you carry a baby and you have that baby, right,
there is something specific. We know that there are hormonal, biological,
(13:44):
neurological changes and that's matrescence, and there's an incredible emerging field.
Does that mean that if you don't do those things
then you don't have a parental instinct?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Absolutely not, because to be and I don't want to again,
I don't want to ever make it sound like I'm
d value in motherhood because the last thing I'd want
to do, but feeling protective over my new baby.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Brent was also protective over that.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And that's the thing is that we talk about maternal instinct,
I think because we're using it to kind of prop
up this ideal mother thing, which is an absolute lie
that has been used as a weapon against women to
be this ever giving, ever nurturing.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Like you have to do everything because you have the mother,
and also self sacrificing. I mean, how many times do
you hear people, you know, famous people being interviewed and
they're like, my mother gave up everything, everything so that
I could have my dream, and that's that ideal, whereas
I never say that about fathers.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
By the way, paternal instinct, which is equally a thing,
is I would say exactly the same. I think it
can manifest slightly differently. But there is all this research
too about in the case of adoption or the case
of grandparents, like the carrying of a baby close to
your body releases these hormones that make you super super protective.
And my worry with undermining the whole idea of a
(14:59):
maternal instinct is that mothers are more anxious today than
they've ever been in all of history. And is that
because they've been undermined? Is there a way in which
all the expertise and the intellectualism and the books and
the podcasts and the bla and you need to have
a PhD In all of the things, and if you
learned to breastfeed yet and makes women feel like they
(15:21):
are so fundamentally incapable of doing any of this that
they need all the advice all the time from the experts.
And there is some truth. I mean, I had to
learn manually how to breastfeed, like there was nothing instinctive
about that, and I was never good at it and
I had to stop. But I think that there are
some parts of reacting to a baby's cry or whatever
(15:44):
it is that maybe mothers and fathers need to trust
themselves a little bit more and that might actually help
with the anxiety and to kind of sit there and go.
And I was reassured by some health professionals it's like
you've got to kind of trust that you know what
you're doing. Something has happened to you in your brain.
The circuits have all changed that have programmed you to
(16:05):
try and look after this thing. What's helped me is
to go the guilt and the anxiety in all of
those things the second to all of them kick in,
and for me, they've been in the realm of normal.
I know for some people they aren't. It's like, oh,
this is helping me, this is helping me. That image
I had of this how horrible thing just happening to Luna,
I'm going to file that away as my brain doing
its job.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I think also, what maternal instinct refers to is it
doesn't also consider like women who choose to adopt. But
what this interview did was that it shows that there
is scientific evidence that people who are around a baby
in those initial phases there is a change in their
brain chemistry, but there hasn't been enough research into it
to actually explain what that change is and how it
(16:48):
like manifests. So I want to know, with both of
your partners, do you know when they had that change?
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I think it was gradual, as I think it was.
And maybe that's how issue too, is that maternal instinct
just builders this thing that is imbued upon you the
second you have a baby, Like I don't think that's right.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I genuinely think and one of the examples is like
so for my second child, obviously I was more comp
I still wouldn't have described myselves as confident mother. But
the literal reason why is because I'd learned it, I've
done it before. And that's the same for my partner,
so he for And again I don't want to talk
in generalizations about specific experiences, but Brent was also a
(17:25):
farther like he adored the baby. You know, and you
have to this is a team effort, and I've talked
about that lots of times, like you've got to trust
them to know what they're doing and learn what they're
doing because all the things you're learning, and you've never
been on such a steep learning curve as you are
in those early days of parenthood. They also have to learn.
But if you don't let them learn, they won't learn,
and you will be the keeper of all that knowledge.
(17:47):
I do think that anyone can learn it. I agree
with you, Jesse about almost everything you say about the
fact that I think we've undermined instinct to a point
in terms of the constant and this is I mean,
it's capitalism.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Let's face it.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They want you to buy the books and buy the things,
and buy all the products that are supposed to make
things easier and all of those things.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
It's also access to information.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
It is, and so I do agree with all of
making you anxious. But for me, I don't think it
was necessarily that, because I just genuinely believe that we've
created an ideal that can undermine mothers a lot, which
is that you'll know what to do, it will be natural.
A good mother does this that are so deep in
us that it's really hard to unpick it. And I
(18:29):
think that maybe some women do. And I genuinely believe that,
Like the point of this article was sort of points
saying that the motherhood myth, the maternal instinct myth, as
she calls it, is like a trap to keep you
at home and keep the status quo in place and
allow men to not have to have anything to do
with child rearing and all those things. I think that
there's a lot of truth in that. And I think
(18:51):
there's an enormous amount of truth that for many, many
women it's the most satisfying and important thing they'll ever do,
and that they'll get so much self esteem out of
being able to do it well.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
So I think two things can be true and I
think there's no question that the culture has given us
an impossible ideal to live up to, and I think
it's probably harder to live up to for some women
than others.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
That's what I genuinely think.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And also just I feel like sometimes when we talk
about maternal instinct, sometimes I think when I am around kids,
I always like grapple with is this like a maternal
instinct or just an instinct because I'm an adult and
they're a kid. Like, for example, if I'm at a
bar or at a pub and there's like a little kid,
they should be a kid at bath so there's like
a little like kind of kid running around. I'm just
(19:37):
staring at that kid because I'm always like, oh my god,
it's going to bump it on our table, it's gonna
run over there. Even when Luna came into the office,
Like you just can't help yourself from like watching kids
and seeing what they're doing and making sure they're not
hurting for yourself, And it just comes so naturally. And
I feel like that's with everyone, regardless they're a parent.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Or not, or their gender, oh the gender, not even
knowing who that kid is.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Yeah, Like it just comes.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
And you know, I wonder if the maternal instinct has
kind of been used to undermine the village too. Like
then it's sort of going, well, the mother will do
it best because it's also innate to her. Where As
you know, lunar is in the care of lots of
different people, and some of them have had kids before,
a lot of them haven't, And that instinct, whatever you
(20:19):
want to call it, you've got a trust that that
will come in all the different caregivers because they build
a relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Man keeping.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
You're probably hearing that word everywhere at the minute, and
there are a whole lot of others that are all
describing the same thing, the realities of dating men.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Emily Vernham's going to take us through it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
So moving on from women to men and the women
who date them. Maybe this week you've seen a lot
of man keeping talk around. We discussed this on the
pod a while ago last year. I think mankeeping describes
the caretaking role that women often play for the men
in their lives. We're did a lot of generalizing today,
by the way, a great deal of generalizing, looking after
(21:01):
their emotional needs, bolstering their confidence, supporting their well being.
It's not just necessarily about doing more around the house,
but that base you're the one who will remind them
to go to the doctors, tell them to call their
mother on her birthday, all of that kind.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Of I love my dad, but I think I man
keep my dad like I think that he's someone I
have to look after.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
There was an article in The Guardian recently called are
heterosexuals Okay? It was by Emma Beddington, and it rounded
up a whole lot of other examples of terms like
man keeping that mean the same thing, which is basically
the argument seems to be dating men is dreary and problematic.
For example, we now have a fancy word heteropessimism to
describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the
(21:43):
mating behavior of men. Emily vernon Dating Correspondent, do you relate?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I think I related more to this in my early
twenties when I first started dating, and I think a
lot of women when they first start dating, whether they're
new to dating or they've come after a breakup and
they're in the new world of dating, it is quite
sudden experience to see how many people are so different
to you and your friends, to that out there that
(22:10):
are now in the dating pool, and it's something that
I feel like now I've just gotten so so used
to that it's like not even a thing for me anymore.
Like you just have to be okay with knowing that
some people you'll date are just going to be quite shit.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
So do you relate with the sense of heteropessimism or
hetero fatalism of just sometimes looking at being a heterosexual
woman and going, I don't know how much longer I
can do this? Because that was a sense. There was
a great New York Times piece about it, and that's
what the author essentially said, is it her friends look
at each other and go, I'm off it.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, every single situation, ship breakup, which a lot of
women go through, I feel like I go through that
all over again, and then I delete the apps and
they come back like six months later. Only recently. I
want to read you out some texts that I got
from a man. Oh please, I was seeing this guy.
I think we went on about four or five dates.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I have a feeling.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I talked about him on the podcast, talked about tying
one on the podcast, and we were talking and he
wanted to date, and I was like yeah, and He's like,
she would be exclusive, and I was like, yeah, if
you want, Like I mean, I'm still in the apps.
I know you're still in the apps because your profile
still there, and he's like yeah yeah. And then two
days after that, I just messaged him and I was like,
are you free on the weekend and he said a
day later, which was the Saturday, he said, I'm at
(23:27):
work all weekend. I finished had six tomorrow, but we've
got lots of bookings in because he's a bartender, so.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
It could be later. Sorry, I'll keep you in the loop.
Never heard from him again. This was like beginning of July.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Okay. So in this New York Times article it told
a story and this woman was talking about one of
her friends and she'd gone on a third date with
a lawyer and her friend said to her, he's really
really sweet and nice to me and good at sex.
No doubt something humiliating a night marriage will occur, so
which I just really related with anyway, And then he
went he was really busy with his word. Men are
(23:59):
all they're so busy with their works, so I'm like women.
And she ended up saying she would message him and
he would just go days and days, and she kind
of ended up saying, Hey, is it hang all right?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Like you?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
No, you take six days to respond, It was just
taking ninety seconds. And eventually he said sorry for keeping
you waiting. He hadn't meant to, but he said the
complaint had got him thinking he unfortunately wasn't able to
escalate whatever was happening between them into a relationship, and
this friend clarified that she had not been asking to
escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans.
(24:32):
He understood that, he said, but their communication skills were
obviously too different for them to continue dating. The reason
I pulled this out, my god, is because I've had
this happen about seven times. It was like clockwork.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
I feel like he just read out my diary.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yes, of I would date people and then four months,
like not two days, four months down the track, and
then I would go, all right, either they're acting weird
or trying to make a plan or something, and I
would ask for clarity on the plan, and then it
would go I think we want different things, and I
was like, I just want to know if for hanging
out on Saturday, and then they'd be like, you clearly
(25:08):
want a relationship, And I was like, I do, but
I didn't say that.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Friends, he's just not that into you.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Like, come on, that's the end of that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Why all he's just read like if they're not texting
you back, if he's texting you back saying we've got
a lot of bookings in tonight.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Not sure? Maybe like he's not that into you. There's
the end of that conversation.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Like if he really liked you, it wouldn't matter if
he was working till midnight, he would try and get
around there as soon as he'd finished, or he'd be
getting someone else to finish his shift for him.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So the issue is that what's wrong with them that
they don't like?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Well, so here's the thing about this whole scenario is true,
this kind of premises like men have gotten worse because
as women have been able to ask for more of
what they want, because they've got more independence, they've got
more choices, they've got what we know, yays, we discuss
all the time. The dialogue is kind of they don't
(26:02):
have to put up with this shitty behavior anymore, Like
that's generally the vibe, right, Like yeah, and so I
threw away the second from the City Line. But say,
like when that show started in the late nineties and noughties,
it was like women tying themselves in knots to believe
something that wasn't true about this guy seemed more urgent
than it does now.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Isn't it interesting though, that show had not a sprinkle
of heteropessimism. It was full of hetero hope. Well, it
was about that they still believed in, like finding the person,
whereas now there's this real nihilism when it comes to.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Some of the characters.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Did Charlotte definitely hetero optimism, always a little bit of
that with Carrie, But like, I don't think Miranda had
a lot of hetero optimism. I don't think Samantha had
a lot of hee Like. Anyway, we're not talking about
sex and the City, but it seems interesting that we've
changed the vocabulary and also the world has changed, because Emmy,
you do have all the choices in the world, right,
(27:00):
you are a catch.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I'm here to tell you.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Stop crying, no question, right, and yet you're you're still
trying to decipher what this stupid fucking text message means.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes, but well I think you're saying so even sex
and the city like they started the taxicab theory right.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, which is there is nothing truer in life. I
would bet my house on that theory.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
I agree. I think that theory is so true.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So the taxicab theory, it's the idea that men will
go dating, dating, dating until they're ready to settle down.
And depending on who they're just dating at the time
they're ready to settle down, that's the person musical chess.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
But women, women have a light to your lights just
have to be on at the same time.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I think women are more and I think this is
where the taxicab theory is making men really confuse now,
because women, as you said whole, have more agency over
their lives and dating, and they're becoming more picky with
dating in a good way, saying that they're going to
look for the right person. So their lights only turns
on on the person that they feel like they're going
to spend the rest of their life with. For example,
(28:05):
I date men who I'm like, I'm definitely not going
to marry you, but you're fun right now, so I'm
going to keep dating you. If his taxi cab light
turns on while he's dating me, I'm backing out like
that's not me, of course. And now these men all
we have on these apps are these men who are
really confused, going my lights on, my lights on, but
no one wants to date me, And they aren't able
to figure out why no one wants to date them.
They just think all they have to do is turn
(28:26):
their lights on and they'll be a woman there waiting
for them.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
That guy, the guy who can't tell you that he
doesn't want to go on another date with you and
has to make up some bullshit excuse about how many
bookings he's got in his bar.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
His light's not on, his lights on on, No, his isn't.
And I think that my theory is that there is
this gap between our desire and our politics right, and
that we would have this desire. I felt like I was.
I couldn't be honest with myself for ten years about
what I wanted because maybe it made me feel less
(28:59):
independent or less. I didn't like the desperation I felt sometimes,
and I didn't like how some men made me feel.
They made me feel desperate, and I just went, I
don't like this. I feel in control in so many
avenues of my life.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
And you're amaking for the tiniest thing confirmation about Saturday
night plans and they were like.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Whoa, I don't want to get married crazy.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
I was like, how dare you make me feel like that?
And there was this term in the New York Times
article I loved, which was I'm not going to be
able to pronounce it normative male electhemia, which is the
condition of being unable to put words to emotions, and
it's about kind of women are like the relationship maintenance experts.
Even in relationships, they're the ones who have to bring
(29:41):
up the issue. Again enormous generalization, but bring up the thing,
ask men to talk about it, and then it gives
way to what they call a female demand male withdraw pattern,
which is exactly what happened, which was I would demand
even in dating the tiniest thing man withdraw.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
I just have to throw a little spanner in the
works in defense of man. And you know, it's unusual
for me to be when the desire is mismatched in
a dating situation, like he likes you more than you
like him, or you like him more than he likes you.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Neither of us are good at communicating that.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Emily, you might be because you're very good. You're quite
good being straightforward. But I know that in my dating life,
if a guy was asking me if I wanted to
go out on Saturday night and I didn't, did I
say was I emotionally super mature and say like, hey,
you know, really, I think I appreciate you asking me
and blah blah blah blah blah, but no, I don't
think we've got a future together. Of course I didn't.
(30:36):
That was too awkward. I would have said exactly the
same thing. We've got too many bookings on Saturday night.
Now I'll call you sometime next week. I think that
women are confrontational avoidant too. But the thing is is
that we tell ourselves a different story because we're always
casting ourselves in the person who's wanting a thing and
that men have got the thing we want. So we
feel like in our dating stories it's always them saying no,
(30:57):
and we're saying but I want, but I want, and
they're saying no, when actually think like, if you're really
honest with yourself, don't you think there have been lots
of times where you haven't treated a person in your
daily life with the absolute respect They deserve.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Oh, absolutely not. But I do think examples of that
there is something. And this is not just in dating,
This is in relationships, This is in couples that have
been together for forty years. I think this idea that
some men struggle to articulate emotions is true, and I
can't work out whether that is something innate or whether
(31:33):
that is something There's definitely a socialization element to it
where I think that men get into some situations and
go I don't even know what to label this feeling.
And for women who are very used to articulating how
they feel and talking to their big group of females
and something that's been rewarded and encouraged in them since
they were very little like, I think that there is
(31:54):
a bit of a mismatch. I'm not sure if it's
greater than it's ever been.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I think it's massive now because men don't talk to
their friends about things, and it's so evident when you
go on that first date with a guy because exactly
I think I even talked about this in the podcast
where I was asking this guy question after question enough
to question He was like, what else do you have
to ask me?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Instead of asking me a question about.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, And I think it's because it's usually the first
time he's just a dick, he's a dick. But it's
also usually the first time where they've actually talked about
themselves and had someone interested in their life. One time,
I went on a date with a guy and he
literally said to me, no one's ever asked me that before.
The question was what does your sister do for work?
(32:35):
I genuinely believe no one's actually halstened that before.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Weird. I want you to tell me though, back to this,
because so many examples in these stories are about a
woman thinking that a relationship is more than it is,
and then a man not being straightforward in his acknowledgment
that his light isn't on or that they're not matched
or whatever. What is the emotionally mature way to handle this?
What should the guy have said? And what do you
(33:01):
say to a guy who's saying I want to go
out again on Thursday and you're like, no.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
What I do?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Now?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
You're right, It's definitely something I didn't do when I
first started dating, because I'd always be like, oh, I
don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Speaker 5 (33:12):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
But what I do now is that after a date,
I will message them and be like, hey, really enjoy
getting to know you.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
I feel like we're not compatible, good luck.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
That's very mature, instead of making them go like waiting
a few days knowing because I know that I would
do it, and I know that if they like me
a lot and I don't like them, I know they'll
spend the next two few days going should I message?
Speaker 5 (33:34):
Should I not?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
What should I say? And then they'll message and be like, hey,
do you want to hang out this weekend? And then
I'll take two days to reply, and then I'll be like, hey,
just checking in. I'll be like, oh sorry, work's been
really really busy, Like it's so shit. It's so shit
to do to someone. I think with online dating now
is that it's given you the excuse where you can
have those really hard conversations without it just being full on.
You have the excuse of it being like so much
(33:57):
more casual and so much more chill. I know a
lot of women don't like doing it in person because
I'm like, you can feel unsafe at sometimes, and I
think just like message them, message them like straight after
or a day after and be like, I've been thinking
about it. I don't want to see you again, but
I'd much prefer that then, kind of like making what
I think is happening a bigger deal in my head
for it to just be crushed with the ghosting, the confusion.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah, after the break, we are absolutely bursting with recommendations
for your weekend.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Follow the link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
To get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Vibes ideas Atosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
It is Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
Holly, what do you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Have for us?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So you know how Jesse likes to recommend the most
obvious things. Yep, she tells me I do that, but
like she's like.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Have you watched Drive to Survive.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
There's show called mad Men that's eight years later she
discovers the thing and then thenoining thing is is that?
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Then everyone watches it?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Like now all the other ladders, are watching drivers vive
because you talked about it five years after.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Good Luck going to the Melbourne Grand Prix.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
And then oh, anyway, I have a new discovery. It's
this little known app that teaches you a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Have you heard about this and can teach you a
language lingo?
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I thought I was telling people last week they had
too many apps.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
We did.
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Technology because the reason I'm recommending this is it's true
that last week we did talk about how we've got
too many apps, and I said I had one hundred
and thirty five.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
And the outlouders have all been in the group, so
how many they've got They got one hundred and eighty six.
I now have one hundred and thirty six because iad dueling?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Are you ad life crisis?
Speaker 5 (36:01):
Are you going to a country to learn?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I came back from my holiday where we went overseas
and we went to Italy, and I'm like, I am
learning Italian before I step foot in that country again.
I'm frecking learning Italian because I never feel more stupid
and dumb. Yeah, and you're like a giant middle aged
baby than when I'm standing in a shop behind my
(36:28):
mother who can speak Italian by the way, or whoever
who is making a real effort to communicate in the language,
being respectful of the culture.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
And I'm they're pointing at things and going Holla.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Bread, bread, bread, bread.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
How am I as old as I am?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I only speak English. It's embarrassing. There are lots
of people in my life who speak lots of languages,
and I'm like, anyway, I'm time poor, time poor. I've
got broccoli look after I apparently I have children to
look after too, but has discussed not very good on
the maternal instincts front. Juliko, you can do six minutes
a day, and I'm doing six minutes today of Italian. Mate,
(37:11):
I'm going to be fluent by the end of this.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I give you two months.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
In two weeks. On this show, I'm gonna ask Collie
how duweling. She's going to say, you were what? And
it's going to be like the time Ollie started meditating
and when she forgot this.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Is I'm going to open it where you have to
re download it every time because it just offloads on
your phone.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Maybe this is my meditation.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
As I've been sitting there and I go, right, I've
got six minutes and the little stupid bird pops up
on my phone and goes, don't forget your Italian lesson.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Then I'm like, oh goody, and I go over there,
and firstly, that's a bird.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And it's trying to encourage me to be a better person.
And I'm getting on board with the owl.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Say something go on for sure, no working.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Sorry to all.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
The Italian out louders and all the out louders, I
tell you, I am going to have learned how to
con like a proper person very soon, thanks to the owl.
It's a little done app called DUELINGO. You'll find it
in the ass.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Is it free?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
It is the version I'm doing. It is free.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
And the way it works just quickly is that every
day little lesson. And some of it is like say
this into the phone. Some of it is translate this thing.
I think I chose too high setting. I was a
bit more ambitious.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Some of the sentences they make you learn right off
the battle weird though.
Speaker 5 (38:33):
It's I like your hat. I'm out of everything I
need to learn in this moment. I like your Hat's probably.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
More also, it thinks were all Americans, because it's like
a lot of the things it wants you to say
is I'm sorry, I don't understand your an American. I'm sorry,
I still don't understand you Australia.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Okay, my recommendation I have two. The first one I
thought was a bit of a cop out, and I
will say, this is my last vegetable recommendation.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
She's trying to bog up my vegetable.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
I am, I am, You're being healthy. The people liked
the broccoli recommendation. Have you heard a carrot face recommends carrots, kale? Orange?
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Kind of?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I'm growing carrots, Jesse.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Okay, I'll tell you how to.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I don't know when they're ready.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
That's one of the problems that happen. I'm like, how
do I know when the carrot is ready?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Anyway?
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Okay, Well, what you have to do is like you
do your olive oil and your salt and your pepper right,
and you put it in the oven really hot. We're roasting,
and we're roasting. And then halfway through this is what
Nagi does, because she makes us all into little chefs,
is you put garlic on it. Because if you put
garlic on it too early, then you burn the garlic.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Roasted vegetables are really the secret to everything.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
They are, and so you put it on and then
you have them. And we've been having our broccoli and
our carrots without aldi spanicopter.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It's just the same recipe as the broccoli one is.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Pretty much except the one with the broccoli had lemon
and parmesan.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
If you remember, you've basically discovered that vegetables don't have
to be boring.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I like, exactly, vegetables are actually young. Okay, But I
have another recommendation which is the best thing I read
on the internet this week. You know how you said
you four hours of TikTok before me. I've now gone
to four hours of substack.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
You are a better pastor I am.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I am.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Now there's a rite and write some of the best
stuff on the internet. He wrote this article that's been
republished everywhere called how social Media shortens your life, and
he says everything.
Speaker 5 (40:25):
Yeah says on social media my four hour TikTok.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Yeah, every social media user has experienced the theft of
their time. You may log on to quickly check your notifications,
and before you know it, half an hour has gone
by and you're still on the platform, unable to account
for where the time went. The phenomenon even has a name,
a thirty minute ick Factor, and he goes on to
explain how the experience of time works and what social
media is doing to our sense of past, present, and future.
(40:51):
And he's written about also how insane it is that
you can be on TikTok and flick and it's like,
tell me what the last video was he watched, or
tell me what the last thing was, and like you
it's just yeah, it is like you are in this
temporal place that is so bad for our brains, which
we all know to be true. But it was a
really interesting analysis of how social media makes you feel
and what you can do to make yourself really feel
(41:13):
time and all the like variations in activities and all
of that, and what's your recommendation?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Okay, I have a confession, and I feel like you
guys are not gonna like this recommendation. Oh no, I've
been on the mystery toy bandwagon.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Oh like the what la boo boos? My dad?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Can you have a conversation like yes, okay, she only
likes buying things that she doesn't know what they are.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
I cannot even explain it. So mystery toys you might
have seen all of you would have seen labooboos all
over the internets. Basically, these stores, they're massive in Asia.
They've only just taken off here in Australia like eight
months later, and there's like this big store, like a
toy store, where all these little boxes are wrapped up
in these mystery boxes where you actually don't know what
(41:54):
is inside them. So they have like different series of toys.
So you have like powerpuff Girls toys, you have Stitch toys,
you have La Boo Boos.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
And the thing is is like in each.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Series of toys, there's different toys you can get amongst
that series. So you can get different versions of Stitch,
different versions our puff Girls. Yes, but you don't know
which one you're going to get. Okay, I'm not saying
collect like people collect these. I'm not saying you have
to collect them. But I was having a particular bad day.
I think it was after this text message from my man,
and I was like I just need to feel really
(42:26):
good about something, and I walked over to PopMart in
the CBD. It is packed with people twenty four to
seven and they're now making it two levels. I bought
one toy from the series.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
I bought this series called.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Cry Baby, which is very fitting with my mood. There
was like monster series, and the thing is you have
to choose a series where you like all of them
in them because I don't want to be disappointed by one.
So I got mine and then I came into the
office and I opened it up and I've never felt
so much joy in that week. And when I opened
that toy, you feel like a child, like on Christmas
Day when you're opening a present that you don't know
(43:02):
what it's going to be.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
Can I ask questions? What do you then do with it?
What do you do with it?
Speaker 5 (43:06):
That's a good question.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So the one I got, I have it on my
desk and I kind of just look at it and
it's really cute. My friend got me one which is
like a Mickey Mouse one that was a key ring
that I put on my handbag.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
This is exactly what my fifteen year old daughter does.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
And then it like fell off my handbag in the
city and this man tapped me on the shoulder and
I was like, what, don't tap me on the shoulder
and he was like, you dropped that, and I was like,
that's the most embarrassing thing I could have ever dropped,
and then just like it was this white, little fluffy
thing that was rolling away from me.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
We could talk about this for a year. It is
genuinely could, because it's the extension of childhood. It's rampant consumerism,
it's gamification, and there are lots of those shops of
walking distance of our office.
Speaker 5 (43:44):
It's good, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Which ones are you obsessed with?
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Again?
Speaker 5 (43:47):
What's the line the cry Baby Monster series?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Okay, I'll leave it there. I'm so sorry, am I
feel like I've been very judging. I've been very judgy.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
I feel like this whole episode I just aird.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Essentially, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
I don't want to be judging, but I'm like, oh no,
that is all we've got time for today. Out louders,
massive thank you to all of you, and to our
amazing team who help us put the show together, and
to you Emily Vernam you guys read this out.
Speaker 4 (44:16):
A big thank you to our team, our group executive
producer Ruth Devine, executive producer Emilin Gazillis.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Our senior audio producers Leah Porge's video producer Josh Green,
and our junior content producers Coca and Tessa.
Speaker 4 (44:28):
Before we go, we actually have a subscriber episode that
we dropped yesterday and it is a series of dilemmas.
One who's started there is one dilemma, and I just
feel like we've all been in this situation where this
woman employed her friend who's an architect to help her
on the project that is her home at the moment,
and things have gone very very badly. Also, are you
(44:49):
a leftover family? We talk about the politics of the
leftovers because someone is committing a social faux pa. Check
out the link in the show notes to listen. Mamma
Mia is cooking up something very exciting and we need
your brilliant opinions to help us make even better content.
And if there is something the out louders have, it is.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Opinions, really good opinions too.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
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Speaker 4 (45:19):
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what a perfect little treat it is to give to
your mum or a friend who's always asking what podcast
to listen to next. If you're interested, check out the
link in our show notes.
Speaker 5 (45:30):
Bye bye.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
Shout out to any mom and Mia subscribers listening. If
you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom and Mia is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description
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