The Victoria Beckham Documentary Is Hard To Watch

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Mamma Mia out Loud. It's a brand new week. This
is what women are actually talking about on Monday, the
thirteenth of October. My name is Holly.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Wayne right, I am Amelia Luster and I am Jesse Stevens.
I have a fun fact before we start the show today.
Did you know so I've been seeing a pelvic floor
physio again to try and sort out.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
The This is earlier in the piece than earlier in time.
She's pregnant. If anyone's wondering, if any out Loud is
you're like, why, so interact with whether or not Jesse's
seeing someone about her pelvic floor.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
We've discussed with twins, right, and so I'm going, I
don't want to head hanging out at twenty weeks. Let's
sort this out. So I went and she was telling
me that when you sneeze as a woman, you're meant
to pull up. Did you know that from your pelvic floor?
So when you know you're going to sneeze, you're meant
to almost like a straw, get your floor and suck

(01:11):
it up through a straw so that you don't let
a little bit of way out. So now it's very
poliny in the like in Sydney. At the moment, everyone's sneezing,
So I keep sneezing, and I keep trying to do.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
That as I'm interesting that every sneeze is a little
opportunity for self optimization exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
That reminds me, though, that I had a Floti Sitchu
once who said every woman is always clenching her buttocks,
So just think of that every time you think of
it unclenched.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's very true. And your buttocks is not your public floor.
This is what my public floor phy say. She'd say,
let go of your.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
Bum and of your bar matladers, hold on to your barm.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Two things.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Is making me all funny, you won't, sir. Anyway, None
of that actually made our agenda for today. What made
our agenda for today immediate Elesta.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
Victoria Beckham has a new docu series on Netflix, and
she's made some big revelations in there about her complicated
relationship with food.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Plus Julia Morris says planes should have a women's only
section and hundreds of women have come forward sharing their
own horror stories. Does she have a point?

Speaker 2 (02:15):
And Princess Kate has written an essay guaranteed to make
you squirm in guilty recognition.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
But first, Amelia, but first, all eyes are on the
Middle East. Today it's Monday here in Australia and her
Mass has until eight o'clock Australian Eastern time tonight to
release all twenty remaining living hostages that are being held
in Gaza back to Israel. Israel has said this could
happen anytime today, starting it around midday Australian Eastern time,

(02:43):
and then after that process is done, Israel is going
to release about two thousand Palestinian detainees that it has.
Donald Trump is on his way there. Before he got
on the plane, he declared war is over. But of
course there is still a lot to be worked out,
and there is some last minute negotiating happening as we
entered this record between Hamas and Israel about which Palestinian

(03:06):
detainees are going to be released. But Trump is going
to go to eat next after this, assuming everything goes well,
and it's there that there's going to be a peace
plan for Gars assigned after some seven hundred and thirty
six days of war. So look, obviously things are unfolding
as we are recording here now, and they will continue
to do so over the coming couple of days. But
the Quickie is here to keep us updated this afternoon,

(03:28):
this evening, and then going forward on how everything unfolds.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Please don't tell anyone that I've been looking at paparazzi images,
because mom and mea, we do not support paparazzi economy.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
But Holly, sometimes we see headlines without our own permission.
They just pop up out of nowhere, and you can't
see a headline.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Can we agree that every time we look at a
paparazzi image unwishingly or not necessarily by choice, that we
work on lifting our pelvic floor? Maybe?

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (03:56):
So true? A ten second hands?

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, ten seconds holds? So I did at least a
thirty minute hold because I promise I didn't click through.
But anyway, I don't want you to know that I've
been looking at paparazi images, but I have, and I'm sorry,
but I have schoreless gossip from these images that Katie
Perry is definitely on with that just intrude.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh I love this story. I actually love there.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
We talked about this schroreless gossip a while ago on
out Loud, and then it was kind of denied by
their camps.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
I went on a date, yes, oh yeah, and he
was like, listen, we're just seeing each other as friends. Yeah,
I'm not romantically interested. Mate.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
If you have glimpsed these images, there is nothing platonic
about them. They are I'll tell you so you don't
have to look out louder, so you can keep your
integrity intact. They are on Katie's yacht off the coast
of Santa Barbara. Apparently she's in a swimsuit and he's
in jeans, which I have a lot of questions about that,
but they are embracing and although you could argue, well,

(04:55):
friends hug each other when they see each other, his
hands are in places that friends do not go. Friends
do not put their hands there. So I just want
to tell you this is very exciting. I don't think
this is just about justin trying to get Canada on
Katie's next space mission. I don't think it's that. I
think they're on I'm excited scoreless gossip. I'm here for it.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Things are looking out for Katie. I think Katie's had
her rough twelve months. She copped a bit and I
think that she's due for a bit of good luck.
And I'm just all for it.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Is here, good dude, Amelia. You know things about politics
out side of the world, and he used to be
the prime minister Rink Canada.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
He's a good issue.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
It seems to hate him now for some reason.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think that's just what happens when you used to
be the pan Wasn't his.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
Dad like a notorious sort of celebrity hanger out.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Holy They are definitely a celebrity family, right those guys. Yeah, Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (05:49):
What I'm wondering about off the coast of Santa Barbara.
You know where that is, right, Montesito, anyone. I'm wondering
because Megan need I unpack this all for you. Megan
is good friends with Justin's ex wife. Yes, that's right,
and they have spent summer days together Paul side at
Megan and Harry's. I'm wondering, was there an awkward run

(06:11):
in at the Montecito shops.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Maybe they were looking out over the water and they
had their monoculars.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
Well, because Katie and Orlando lived next door to Megan
and Harry, so it's all very messy.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
Harry once said that Orlander would tip him off about
paps in the neighborhood. See I've seen the pap down
at IgA.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
You better watch out.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
And then you're right, because Megan has often talked about
having the Canadian first family round. That's when they were together.
So hot scandal it down.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
The good that Oprah also lives there has sorted out
for them. So there's a new documentary series out, a
three part documentary on Netflix telling the life story of
Victoria Beckham. So you remember last year was the David
Beckham Netflix documentary. This year it's Victoria's turn. And Holly,
you asked me last week if I was enjoying watching

(07:01):
it because I just started watching it.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
You watched the first app before I had seen it.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
Yeah, I was like it good like And I said,
you know, Holly, I'm finding it really hard to watch.
And I recounted a scene in the first episode that
has really stayed with me. David and Victoria are swanning
around their really marvelously charming looking country house kitchen and
they're about to.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Go out to an event.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
And one detail I love in this is that they
both really like expensive wine, and David had poured them
both big you know, those big rich person goblets of
wine to drink before they went to an event, and
I guess they didn't have time to drink them, so
David pours them into flasks, essentially to drink in the
back of their limousine sippy cups. But then he also
says to her, do you want a whisper? There's a

(07:45):
little draw full of chocolate in their kitchen and it's
one of those fun size I guess is whisper a
British chocolate.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's kind of like a flake covered
in chocolate, but more air. Aw we it's They're delicious.
Whispers are delish.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
So he says to her, do you want a whisper?
And then she makes a joke something along the lines
of not having touched chocolate since the nineties, I'm not
going to start eating it now. And I just thought,
this person clearly has a disordered relationship with food. And
that's what I said to you, And then that became
a theme of the whole show, didn't it?

Speaker 2 (08:13):
It did? I was going to say, because that on
its own was kind of like, oh, yeah, we know,
we know. And also there was a lot of footage
in that first episode of them at the gym. Do
you notice that lots of less Victoria doing weights, lots
of midlife weightlifting, you know how that's what the ladies
are into. And I don't know what the protein count
and a whisper is so like she wouldn't be Yeah,

(08:34):
I don't think. I don't think she'd be guzzling those anyway.
But in the second episode we will have a few
spoilers in this but for people who really want to
dive into what we thought of the whole show, we're
going to do a special subject about it for tomorrow
for Tuesday. But in episode two they talk about the
food and the diet culture and eating disorders in a

(08:55):
more head on fashion right, And I actually found it
really moving and insightful. And I know there's a lot
of criticism about how surface level this show is, and
it is I think certainly compared to the David Beckham documentary.
It doesn't feel anywhere near as deep. But Victoria Beckham

(09:17):
POSH or Lady Beckham, as the BBC always calls her,
which I just love. Go and read some reporting on
the BBC website about this show, and even when talking
about the most mundane thing like wine sippy cups, they
referred to as Lady Beckham.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
She'd love that, she would love that.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Lady Beckham is one of those celebrities who she has
been famous for thirty years. She is an absolute icon
of gen X culture in all her different guys is
and her skinniness. And I'm just going to say it
because I know, and this is part of what we're
going to discuss. I know the world we live in now,
you're not really meant to talk about that. So we're

(09:54):
not meant to say that we don't eat chocolate, and
we're not meant to talk about weight or bodies or
comment on the fact that Victoria Beckham has been unbelievably
thin for thirty years, but she has right Watching her
talk about that, even in that, you could see how
much it aimed her to discuss it. I found really
insightful because it just spoke to me of a very

(10:16):
specific moment in culture and what that does to you
over decades. Obviously an example of that and that level
of attention, we're about to play you a grab of
Posh as she was universally known in those days, appearing
on a very high profile television show hosted by a
very high profile host called Chris Evans in nineteen ninety nine,

(10:37):
not long after she has had her baby, Brooklyn. Who
will get to in the subject, I'm sure, And she
goes on the show and he asks her about her
body and her baby weight.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
A lot of girls want to know, because you look
fantastic again, how did you get back to your shape
after your birth? I haven't done it.

Speaker 4 (10:52):
I mean, I'm really lazy.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Let's go down.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
May be one of the Sickney women who didn't have.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
To do anything.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
I don't. I don't.

Speaker 5 (10:56):
Actually a lot of people say, does David help, you know,
so work out?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
What way is that?

Speaker 3 (11:02):
I don't?

Speaker 5 (11:02):
No idea spot for USh?

Speaker 4 (11:04):
You know?

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, circuit training is your way back to normal?

Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah it is?

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Can I check?

Speaker 5 (11:10):
Oh no, you didn't, Jerry, didn't you?

Speaker 2 (11:12):
But Jerry was that really small? It's horrible.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Oh my god, I cannot believe that happens.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
And he weighs her in on TV, which is something
that people used to do, and you know what, not
that long ago, I heard people weighing each other on
the radio, like this is celebrity culture that is in
the past that we can touch. And then she talks
about the impact of the spotlight from being a young
dancer all the way through to now on her body

(11:39):
and body image, and it's probably the most honest she's
ever been about it.

Speaker 5 (11:42):
This is what she says, when you have an eating disorder,
you become very good at lying. And I was never
honest about it with my parents. I never talked about
it publicly. It really affects you when you're being told
constantly you're not good enough.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
So it's a bit ambiguous about whether or not she
is still struggling with that, but she certainly refers to
this feeling of inadequacy that has fueled her her whole life.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
And yet when she says I was controlling it in
an incredibly unhealthy way, it sounds like it's past tense.
And I understand why she puts it into past tense.
I think it's a much more palatable way to talk
about any sort of mental illness, to have it as
an arc which you have overcome.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
I actually she did do that.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
I felt as though it was implicit that the only
reason she felt at all comfortable with it because this
documentary was about triumph. It was about all the assumptions
that had been made about her and her reinventions and basically,
look at where I am now. And so it wouldn't
have really fit for her to sit there and say,

(12:50):
and I still have an aiding, Didace?

Speaker 4 (12:51):
You know what?

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I think that's so interesting because I saw it so differently,
because the narrative we would all be really comfortable with
would be an explicit one of and this is we've
seen it a million times. I was struggling. I'm not
struggling now. I now have learned to have a healthy
relationship with my body, my image, my food. She didn't
say any of that, and in fact, it is incredibly

(13:13):
clear from how much she talked about control, how much
she talked about hating literally hating what she looks like.
And this is a woman who's had to look at
pictures of herself for thirty years, bestorked by the paparazzi,
all those things. It's incredibly clear, really when you watch
this that she is still incredibly self conscious. Anytime a
camera has pointed at her, she is intensely buttoned up

(13:35):
and controlled, even when it's doing a TikTok dance with
her daughter. You know, there's a scene where she and
Harper do a TikTok dance in there what looks like
skyscraper in londartment. Yeah, and she's like, oh yeah, the
angle's flattering, Like she is so steeped in that controlling
diet culture of the time. I don't think she's pretending
she's free.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Flattering is in fact her highest compliment. She says that's
why she started a clothing line is because she wanted
to make flattering clothing. But I think why this felt
like such a big deal is because, as you say, Holly,
we've known Victoria Beckham for thirty years and there should
be actually nothing surprising necessarily about her admitting this. Shocking
as it is, it shouldn't be surprising. And yet Hadley Freeman,

(14:18):
who's a writer in the UK Times, who herself has
written about extensively her own struggles with an eating disorder
as a teenager, she points out that we've been looking
at Victoria looking this way for years, for decades, and
yet somehow we didn't want to see what was obvious.
We didn't even want to acknowledge it until she herself

(14:38):
said it on this show.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
And we've got to ask why that is, because we
do this all.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
The time, when celebrities become half the size that they
once were. Ariana Grande, we saw this recently. It was
almost like we weren't allowed to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
It seems like there is something so different about our
treatment of any sort of eating disorders, no matter how
it manifests in how your body looks. But it seems
to be the only mental illness to which we afford
barely any empathy. It's a mental illness that we approach
with contempt and often anger. Just like, why does she
look like that impossible beauty standard?

Speaker 4 (15:13):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Blah blah blah?

Speaker 4 (15:14):
Is that why you're saying that we don't talk about
it because we just don't.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Regard it as real.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Maybe, yeah, we don't regard it as an illness, and.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
I think also as something that is like endemic to Hollywood,
to celebrity.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Cost costs to join business. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
So in that essay, Freeman said as well, why would
any celebrity recover from anorexia given how high the rewards
now are for extreme thinness? Like that's it's the game
and she's playing it, which sounds like a really callous
way to describe it. But it is an illness. But
because it's an illness that almost conforms to a standard
that society rewards, we just don't want to treat it

(15:51):
with any empathy.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, because for exactly that reason, because it is a
standard that society rewards. But this is the thing, is
that my complex feelings about watching Posh talk about that.
And I may have been over empathizing because I feel
like I know Victoria Beckham when obviously I don't. But
she has been so front and center in pop culture
for so long, but it's very complicated to think of

(16:15):
the fact that someone who is part of the problem.
So she was in those naughty size zero years, the
pictures of her in tiny little hotpants when she had
the big fake boobs, which she also talks about in
the show and says I buried those in Baden Baden,
which was a European championships where all the wags looked
like that, and she was the queen right, tiny, like
really tiny, tinier than a seven year old child. Tiny,

(16:37):
but with the big boobs, tiny hotpants, all those things
that was held up and put everywhere as almost like
a warning but also something you want right, So it's
like ooh, yum, yum, ooh, that's the vibe. And the
thing is is that the complicated relationship you have with
Posh is that she was part of that problem because
she was the pinup, one of the primary pinups. She

(16:59):
still is in a way, and that this is what
I mean about. I don't think she was trying to
suggest that all her issues with food and body are
in the past. She has not changed even an iota,
as in still clearly something she works very hard at
and considers the height of beauty. So she is part
of the problem, but she's also a victim of the problem.
And I think that's really confusing to try and hold

(17:19):
in your head, because for me, there was a really
telling bit because she has literally been followed by paparazzi,
as I say, for three decades through lots of phases
of her life. And there's a telling bit where her
and Eva Longot because she becomes friends with the Hollywoods
when she goes to live in la when David goes
to place for Galaxy, and she and Eva Longoria a
being papped when they're out on Mulholland drive or whatever,

(17:41):
and she said I couldn't believe her relaxed in front
of the cameras Eva Longoria was. And this is a
time too when she was very thin and the Desperate
Housewives size zero era, but she was like, she didn't
seem to care whether she smiled in a way that
gave her a double chin or whether she like looked,
whereas Posh was clearly has been. So I'm going to
use the word that might make some people roll their eyes,

(18:02):
but like traumatized by that glare and that criticism and
that relentless comparison from a very formative young that she
can't just be in the world, so she's in awe
of people who can. And she clearly is still that
way because one of the things about this doco, it's
quite a shallow doco. As we said, I enjoyed it
for lots of reasons we'll get into in the subset,
but it was meant to be, as you say, a

(18:24):
victorious thing but also a plucky Vicky you know, go
buy an eyeliner because she's been through some tough times
kind of vibe. She is clearly still unbelievably self conscious
about her appearance, every angle, every shot, every and I
don't know, I felt a lot of empathy for it
because I think it's complicated.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, and there were some specifics, like she referred to
an article that was written eleven days after she gave
birth that was basically saying she was still carrying the
baby weight. And it also made me think of a
few years ago when David Beckham flippantly said in an
interview that Victoria had only eaten grilled fish and steamed
vegetables since he met her, and it started this big

(19:03):
discussion about whether or not that was healthy and whether
that was a sign of disordered eating. And we as
a society enabling this by like what allowing Victoria to exist? Like,
I don't know what I understand why we police our
own language in public, because I think that the way
that we talk about women's bodies publicly should be different
to how we might talk about them privately, because there's

(19:26):
more of a responsibility and you don't know who's listening,
and you don't know what they're going through, and everyone's
relationship is really complicated with it. But the idea that
that Victoria Beckham is being enabled by being allowed to
be on television have a job. When she's that thin,
we are enabling her.

Speaker 4 (19:47):
I just look, I think we can all agree that
anyone who is struggling with the mental illness deserves empathy. Yeah,
of course includes people with eating disorders, which are among
the deadliest mental illnesses.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
But stepping back a.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
Little bit, like when David said that flippantly, or when
Victoria flippantly said I haven't eaten chocolate sinster nineties, that's
regarded as charming, Like whenever she talks about food, it's
in that same way as she does in the documentary,
Or when David said that about her eating the steamfish
and vegetables, and it kicked off a discourse about whether
we should enable that.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
But it's not normal. It's not healthy to only eat
steam fish and vegetables for your whole life.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
So my question is do we expect all the all
the famous people in the world to only present a
very well adjusted front to us at all times? Because
I agree with you, Amelia, like I agree with you
one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Like it's it made me feel bad, it's X.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
This is the way that gen X women have always
talked about food, right, It's never just food, and it's
unfortunate and it's terrible, and I think we're prosecuting that.
But my question is is it better to edit all
that stuff out of it and pretend that Victoria Beckham
is healthier than she is when it comes to this stuff.
That's my genuine question.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
I think my problem is not so much with how
Victoria Beckham talks about it as so much as what
message are we sending when we do reward these women
who are clearly have been starving themselves for decades and
say that's the height of fashion. That's literally fashion means
howeveryone wants to look and what is regarded as she
can trendy. We reward them with our money and with

(21:16):
our attention, and then we expect our children to not
listen to us.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
But we reward them, and we also relentlessly criticize them.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (21:25):
We reward the culture while at the same time punishing
the individual. Yes, which is so cruel.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
That's what I was kind of wrestling with when I'm saying,
she's like part of the problem with the whole I
haven't eaten chocolate since the nineties and also a victim
of it in that like, of course she's like that,
And I just wonder because I agree with you, but
I feel like there's freedom to me, or there's some
honesty to me. I think when women who are that

(21:50):
impossibly sin which is always held up as desirable, when actually,
if we're all being honest, I don't know that it
is that desirable to have such an you know, it's
hard to say the words without sounding critical, but such
a very very tiny body shape that clearly you have
to restrict yourself so heavily to have. But I guess
my point is, is it better if she pretends that

(22:12):
she eats burgers?

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (22:14):
No, I completely see that question. I guess it just
comes back to look, Obviously, she's entitled to eat whatever
she wants, and if that's steamfish and vegetables are never
any chocolate, that's fine. But it makes me a bit sad.
And I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say
that she has only been a victim in this. She
has been rewarded with immense fame and fortune as a

(22:35):
result of starving herself. Now that's not her problem, that's
our problem.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I think she's both I think that's what's complicated about it.
I think she's both. I think personally I felt sad,
Like after episode term particular, I felt really sad, and
I was glad about that. I don't want to just
watch something that just makes me go perfect, happy, shiny life,
no problems there, Like I liked it.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Before we move on, can I please have everyone's topline thoughts,
because there are gonna be people who did their homework.
We told them this weekend, your homework is to watch
Victoria Beckham. I'll be the first put my hand out
and go. I didn't complete the homework. I didn't. I
didn't get through episode three yet I will complain it.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Well, you'll never find out what happens with the fashion show.
I just love how the stakes of fashion and sports
documentaries they're both the same. It's like I get so
invested in things that actually don't matter very much, and
that's wonderful.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
See I disagree that they're the same. A sports docko
I will get right into because I feel like the
stakes are simple as winning or losing. I felt like
I was watching an episode of Project Runway where it
was kind of like about Tim guhnn yes or like
will it rain, won't it rain? And I was like,
I'm not invested in that like that much in the rain.
And it was, as we predicted, such an explicit, prolonged

(23:49):
Victoria Beckham ad that at the end, I went, am
I more likely to go to Victoriabeckham dot com and
look at a nice frock? Perhaps?

Speaker 4 (23:57):
I'm sure I wouldn't never aye you with a question
like do you think that it's going to drive people
to buy things with your name on them?

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Because when you have created a brand, you want to
get your brand story out there. It's really cool to
kind of being front and center of people's purchasing decisions.
And this was just a brand story.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Except a brand's story was kind of and nobody bought
my clothes and I nearly went bust.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
Oh, I think it was people bought them, but I
just spilled the money mentally the money on my plants.
I found it profoundly disappointing and it was full of
platitudes and cliches. And there was a point at which
she said this sentence that was like, I'm a control freak,
so when things aren't in my control, it's hard. And
I was like, I'm out I'm out, this is just

(24:41):
so boring.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
I know that I'm the lone Vicky b defender in
this in this room. Because you're right, it wasn't great.
Particularly wasn't great in comparison to the Mecan documentary, which
was great in every way. It wasn't as deep. It
didn't interview that like he had every teammate he's ever had,
and we didn't even get the Spice girls like it.
It was very shallow in lots of ways. But in
a way, I think that's almost like appropriate for the

(25:04):
different ways we treat male and female celebrities, because this
was so buttoned up and so like, what will people say,
Oh my god, I've got it, Like, I know, I've
got to be authentic, but I don't want to be authentic.
I don't want to say anything that might be controversial,
so I'll just drop them like a tiny thing. Whereas
David was kind of like, well, you know, let it
all hang out. I think it's very gendered.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
If this discussion has brought up any issues for you,
we will have some resources in the show notes.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
In a moment, would you choose a female only section
on a flight if you could, we discuss Julia Morris,
who's a comedian and a TV host, best known for
hosting I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here National Treasure. Yes,
she has a proposal. Over the weekend she posted this idea,

(25:52):
which is she thinks planes should have a women's only
section with women's only bathrooms. So here is exactly what
she posted. She wrote, calling all airlines please consider a
women only section on your planes. We don't feel safe
with men telling us to crawl over them on flight
while they ignore women's personal space. And I won't even

(26:13):
mention the state of the toilets. Not all men, but
why so many give us the back section or at
least a few rows of female only seats stand up
to creeps on flights. Women are over it and the
post attracted lots of likes, but more than sixteen hundred comments.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
You think this was like a serious request to the airlights.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
I actually do.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
And it appears that maybe she had recently been on
a flight and had a particularly bad experience. But all
of these comments came floating in. I was really interested
to see what the consensus was, and generally it was
women sharing stories of being assaulted on flights, particularly by
men who were inebriated, men making women crawl over them

(26:57):
and then kind of making them feel like they didn't
have their own personal space. And also women being in
a position where they had to breastfeed and they were
sandwiched between two men and they felt uncomfortable. I remember
last year talked about an Indian low cost carrier named
Indigo who had just offered a service where female passengers

(27:18):
could select a seat where they could sit next to
another female passenger, so you could see it when you
checked in and you chose your seat, you could go,
I want to sit next to a woman, And that
was about comfort and safety of women on flights. I
am so interested to hear what you think. I've gone
back and forth on it, Amelia, what do you reckon?

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah? I think it's a really interesting proposal.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
And I think that women's only spaces kind of go
in and out of fashion, depending on maybe the political
climate at the times. Because back in the nineties, when
I was about to go to university, my mom told
me that when she was at Sydney University in the sixties,
they had a women's only room and she would spend
a lot of time there. And my reaction in the nineties,

(28:01):
growing up amidst lad culture, amidst Victoria Beckham being weighed
on national television. Was immediately like, that's uncle, Why would
I strike out on my own and go where only
the women are? Because back then it was seen as
you had to be able to hang with men, and
you had to be able to be comfortable in the
company of men and not talk too loudly about being

(28:22):
a feminist or wanting to be with other women. And
also the nineties, I remember that I watched a travel
show about Tokyo. It was a Clive James travel show,
and he talked about how on the Tokyo subway there
are women only cars on the subway. And this blew
my nineties mind because back then again there just wasn't
this acceptance of the need for women only spaces for
all these sort of big cultural reasons.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Are are there still women's only cars on the subway?
And there are? Yes.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Another harbinger of the times was you know the Kuldjie
Ladies bards there in Sydney, and they're very beautiful and
they've been a sanctuary for women for over a century.
In nineteen ninety five, a man launched proceedings of the
New South Wales Anti Discrimination Board, saying that he wanted
to be able to go to the ladies' bards. Now
he lost the case, but it's a sign of how
there really was this backlash then against this same fear

(29:09):
of women being able to have their own space.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
And now I think.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
We've come one to eighty and now I think we're
really wanting to create spaces for women. Women are two
thirds of global travelers. There's been a rise in women's
only trips and holidays and things like that, and I
think we're more aware now of like the psychological safety
that can be brought about by being around other women.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yes, cosign all that, but is there also a point
here at which and I want to preface this that
obviously the story's there about being groped or you know,
made to feel unsafe in a physical way because some
creepy guy basically is sitting next to you. Is there
also a place here where we've just become completely intolerant

(29:51):
of being around the people who may behave in ways
that we don't like. Like, you know, we've often talked
about when we're traveling lots for Mom and mere out
loud and we're flying all the time. We often complain
or laugh about like that guy who felt entitled enough
to snore or spread his legs too wide or talk
to loudly or whatever. And there is a point at

(30:12):
which we do just have to all rub along, right.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
We do. But it's funny.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
You should imagine the tour because one of the people
who works with us on the tour mentioned that she
was on a plane going to one of the shows
and a man was looking at hardcore pornography next to her.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
See, that is not exactly okay.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
But you know, I'm not normally the hashtag not all men.
But I just think I'm generally in favor of a
co ed world. I think we're all better if we
learn to figure out how to hang around with each other.
So I don't really like the idea of gender segregating
all public spaces. I think that any kind of criminal
or creepy behavior should be punished. But like if I
could sit in a woman's only section on a plane,

(30:49):
I would not. There's no way I would, because you'll
tell you why. It's where the babies would be. If
they put a women's only section on a plane, that
is where all the children would go. And although I
am very because that's just the way the world works
and it shouldn't be, but it is. And I am
very tolerant of babies and toddlers on planes because I've been,
but I'm not there anymore and I do not want

(31:11):
to see and so the men would be loving it.
And also the way that Julia suggested it is that
the women are at the back. I'm like, no, thanks,
I want to be at the front as close to
the front as humanly possible.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
No, but that's for all the businessmen.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
I don't think so, so I you know, I have
a lot of sympathy for any woman who's experienced that
creepy behavior. And I did once to do fourteen hours
on a long haul to England with the first leg
sitting next to two enormous bodybuilders like they were so
enormously's bodybuilder guys with these really big muscly thighs, and
they sat with their leg light and it was not comfy.
But I don't think I would choose a women's only section.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
Growing up in the nineties. I wonder if that is
part of why I bristle a little bit at gender segregation,
and maybe I feel as though it's also why do
we need a women's space to allow for men's criminal behavior?
Behavior Like if I have sat on a long haul

(32:08):
flight next to a man who did very intimate things
to himself on that fly, and I was stuck by
the window, so my only option was to have crawled
over him to what And it's the same with our
member of our team who saw what was on his phone.
You often sit there and you go.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, I don't know if this is a crime.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
I just don't like it. Maybe it was I was
a young girl at the time. What am I going
to do? I'm quite literally trapped.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
And also you were also thinking if a man is
prepared to either watch hardcore porn in a public space
or be with him, yeah, in a public space, then
this is not necessarily a man I'm going to confront, yes, and.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
A lot of I found a Reddit thread discussing this,
and it was someone asking cabin crew, and a lot
of the cabin crew said, for the amount of flights
we do, we do not get a lot of reports.
And I thought that means very little because I didn't
say anything, our team member didn't say anything. Of course,
they didn't like what you just often don't you just
put up with it. And there's stories in this of

(33:08):
women falling asleep and they've woken up and the person
next to them is being creepy and it's awful. With
all of that said, I think that if that occurs,
I would prefer to live in a world where those
men are punished and banned from airlines than a world
in which we exist in different parts of the plane

(33:31):
because we do not trust men to sit beside a
woman for a long period of time.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
You know where my hypocrisy comes here. Actually, you know
I'm saying, Oh, I wouldn't. If I was booking a
flight for my fifteen year old daughter and I had
that option, I probably would take the option of having
her sit next to a woman. So there is hypocrisy
in what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
I don't think it's about crime, because Jesse, I take
your point like, if someone is doing a criminal activity,
they should be arrested for it. I think it's about comfort,
and I think it's okay to want a more comforting
experience in the very dehumanizing experience which is modern airline travel.
Let me give you an example from my own life,
which is one time I was on the New York Subway,

(34:08):
which most definitely does not have women only cars, and
I was very comfortable on the subway and it was
sort of my happy place. Actually, I love public transport
because I feel like it's very anonymous and you can
zone out and think about your life, and people an
opportunity to read. People watch, well, people watch, interesting choice
of phrase. So I was sitting there, probably reading my
phone or a magazine because it's a few years ago.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
And just as I got up to get off the.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
Train, a man came up to me and he said,
you should know that that man over there has been
drawing your legs. Oh no, but it wasn't in a
good way.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
No, No, I didn't mean they are in a good
ways an artists like like more like.

Speaker 4 (34:52):
I was flaunching my pins, I was wearying like my
office attire. It wasn't anything risky and see the drawing.
I didn't see the drawing, but I was really unsettled. Now,
it is definitely not illegal to draw someone's legs. But
would I have preferred that that was not happening while
I was in my happy place? Yes, yes they would have.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
And that's the thing is that it might be one
incident in a thousand, but it changes the way you travel.
It changes the way and the.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
Next time I got on the subway and I was
wearing a dress, I was just a little bit conscious
of picking a seat that was maybe slightly less visible
to the rest of the train car.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
Yeah, and I suppose it's a good point, right, because
there's criminal activity, But then there is just the general
degradation of airline travel. So for example, the crawling over
someone and having them not move. I was trying to
be really honest with myself and I went, I've had
as many women not get up from their seat and
have me crawl over them to get to the aisle

(35:49):
as I have men. Do I think men leave dirtier bathrooms. No,
I think that women leave real dirty bathrooms as well.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
It is a bit of a stereotype that if the
plane was full of women, it would be so neat
and tidy.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
I think it's one thing, and I always think that
we should extend a particular like a sensitivity to anyone
who's had seriously traumatizing experience. It's where you go. I
don't like the idea that then you sit next to
two men and you feel threatened or unsafe for fourteen hours.
I don't like that, but generally speaking, I just go oh.
I was looking around a cafe today and I was like, well,

(36:23):
I like the mixed I like the co ed of
it all, and I think that having a standard for
how we all behave like human beings should just be
widely accepted.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
I want to hear from out louders. I don't necessarily
want to hear all the plane horror stories because it
might definitely maybe change my mind, but I want to
know what you think. Do you think we should have
women's only areas on aeroplanes? I have excellent news for
type bees and lazy girls. Oh hello, that's me. No,
you do not have to make your bed first thing

(36:55):
in the morning to have a clear, productive day. In fact,
you shouldn't, Jesse, isn't this one of the Jordan Peterson's
twelve for all belove you men to get out of
bed and immediately make it.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Yeah, so read any self help. I'm pretty sure it's
also Atomic habits. James Clear, it's any person who's told
you how to live your life. Chapter one is make
your bed?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Holy?

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Do you have a Google news for this? Topic, do
not make bed.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Because I read so excited about you know why? Well,
I'll tell you what the truth what I'm talking about,
and then I'll tell you why make you excited?

Speaker 5 (37:28):
Right is?

Speaker 2 (37:29):
I read a piece in the UK Telegraph this week
that was kind of like it was one of those
twelve domestic myths that we must dispel right and London
based GP dr amos Ockencoa says that you shouldn't because
when you sleep, you build up moisture and sweat. And
this is even in London, right stop form there. This warm,

(37:50):
humid environment is the perfect breeding ground for microscopic dust mite.
I've always said this, yea. And so Lindsey Crombie, who's
a home expert and author of the Fifteen Minute Clean, says,
your best bet is to leave the bed unmade for
an hour or two or ten or ten so that
it can air out naturally. You can obviously open a

(38:12):
window or whatever fresh air. But the point that what
I seized onto with delight was the idea of leaving
your bed all mussied up and open like an open bed.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
The germs need to fly away.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
Everyone knows that need to.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Fly away as they clean. Air needs to come in
and do. It's wishy washy, wishy washy.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
Clear, They're not flying away, they're dehydrating and dying.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
WoT someone think about the dust.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
And I don't have to fight.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
You don't even have to clean your sheets, is what
I hear.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
Let's just be clear that by not making your bed,
you are leaving these dust whites to die.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
I can live with that. I can't extend empathy to dust.
I mean, what even faces the dust mites have do
they make little sad flash leave them to shrivel in it? Anyway,
Although I do make my bed because I kind of
have to, because I've read all these things, I never
ever did. Obviously wasn't brought up to right, I've just
been brought up with with a douna as we call

(39:06):
them in Australia, a douvet as we call them in England.
I just used to get out of bed and whatever
state it was in, I just walk away from it.
And then I had a boyfriend, right. I had a
boyfriend in my late twenties who was what we may
call a clean freak, but maybe he was just ornmic
and he was obsessed with it. He was also obsessed
with when he took off his clothes when he got home,

(39:27):
no matter what state of excitement you were in, he
had to fold them up and put them. But he
was a lovely guy, but he was obsessed with making
the bed. And he said to me, you know, your
mind is messy if your bed is messy. All that
stuff that you read, and I took it in so
I do make my bed. But when I read this,
little twenty eight.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Year old me was like, yeah, that do you think
making the bed is the patriarchy? Because I also never
made my bed. It's an instinct. It's in my DNA.
I just don't.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
And is that out of concern for reducing the humidity
in the room and leaving the dust work?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yes, letting them fly away. It's always been critical to
my understanding of my own I don't have we do.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
We need to dispel this myth, very concerned about the
fact basically.

Speaker 4 (40:12):
You were thinking of my little butterflies leaving your bed.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
That's not what's happening.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
I like that imagery. And then I met an absolute
make your bed guy. And the oppression of making your
bed is that the last person out of bed must
make it. And I happen to be about every single day,
so the bed has to get made. I have to
do it. I resent it, and when he's away or something,
I don't make the bed, and guess what, my life's

(40:37):
exactly the same copaganda, but it actually doesn't make my
life better. Don't make the bed. Do you enjoy making
your bed, Amelia?

Speaker 1 (40:43):
I do. I love making my bed.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Are you a many cushions person?

Speaker 4 (40:47):
Yes, but you know, if you're in a heterosexual relationship
with a man, sometimes the pillows you have to minimize them.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
I find the anger men not all they do.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Yes, women, but it's also like you have to explain
the pillows, and it just gets to the point where
it's like.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
The women's area of the play.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
Oh my god, that's actually a big problem.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
After the break, Princess Kate has just told us all
off about using our phones around the kids, and we're
unpacking where the mobile phones are soon going.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
To be the new smoking one unlimited out loud access.
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes
to get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you to all our current.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Subscribers, Friends, I was seduced by a headline today on
the Internet. Earlier on I was seduced by some bad preparatives.
Then I was seduced by a headline Kate Middleton explains
a house rule, no phones for the kids. Now, you
know me, any excuse to peer through the palace windows?

(41:53):
I am in, I am there binoculars on.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Can I also just flag her eldest child is twelve?
And I just think every parent with a child older
than twelve is going, yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to twelve.
You wait, just you wait, Kate.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
What happen when you click on that headline as you
go to an essay like a whole essay right called
the Power of Human Connection in a Distracted World, which
sounds very high for Luton. It is written by Her
Royal Highness, the Princess of Wells, in collaboration with Professor
Robert Waldinger. And it's all about, and this is not
news to anyone who lives in the world, the fact
that phones are screwing our attention and that when it

(42:31):
comes to parents and kids and building a connection between
little kids and their caregivers, phones are breaking that connection
and making sick unhappy, anxious children. We have been being
told this everywhere we look for a while. Now, she
writes in this article, our undivided attention is the most
precious gift we can give another person, Yet increasingly it's

(42:51):
the most difficult gift to offer when we check our
phones during conversations, scroll through social media during family dinners.
I was like, I don't do that, and I got
to feel really smug for two minutes. But then or
respond to emails while playing with our children. Damn it.
We're not just being distracted. We are withdrawing ding the
basic form of love that human connection requires. Now that

(43:13):
bit with drawing the basic form of love that human
connection requires really hit me in the guts. Do you
want me to explain why Kate's writing this or or
do we just want to go straight into how we
feel about this?

Speaker 3 (43:25):
I think our feelings are more important.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Okay, feelings first, okay, and I'll explain what the strategy
is here.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Fundamentally, is she absolutely correct in every assumption? She is
one hundred She's totally correct, and she's got the Happiness
guy explaining why she's correct, and she has all the research,
and la la la, like we know la la la, facts, facts,
But how does it feel? Well, I had to examine
my response because I've got my back up about this,

(43:53):
and this is something that I care about a lot
in parenting, Like I think that attention is really I've
heard Hugh van Kylenberg talk about this anecdote about being
at the park and his mother turning to him and saying,
you're missing it, and he realized that he hadn't looked
up right. And like, what I struggle with a bit

(44:15):
with these conversations is that it is easier to place
boundaries around your own screen time and your children's screen
time when you have nanny's money and energy and things
that are finite resources that certain privileges allow you. And
I don't want to go the whole privilege, the whole blot.

(44:36):
I just don't want this to turn into a thing
where rich parents finger wag at working parents or at
parents with less time.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
I just I agree with you one hundred percent. But
in terms of the whole well, of course it's easy
for you. Kate is as we've already said, she's not
exactly Robinson Crusoe in saying this right exactly like she thought.
So I know what you mean, but this is a
message we're getting from all directions.

Speaker 4 (44:58):
It is.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
And I'm also a little bit worried about the standard
of intense engagement and connection and attention that we're expected
to have with that children twenty four to seven right,
the parenting verb. I've heard Ezra Klein say the reason
so many people have two kids is because we cannot
parent the way that we are being taught to parent.
With more than two kids, it would be impossible. Like

(45:21):
there's an intensity which we expect of ourselves that no
other generation has done. The idea that you would be
somewhat distracted while looking after your children is something that
has always happened. I do think that there's something about
looking at a phone that really zapps connection and all
of that. However, if I have a day at home

(45:41):
with Luna and that can be twelve hours of Jesse Luna,
the idea that I would be staring into her eyes
and intensely playing with her actually isn't.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Good for either of us. Like her, I'm not possible.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
No, it's not possible. It's like the independent play. The
idea that she would toddle off and go and do something,
and I might pay a bill, or I might check
if the library is open, or I might text Lucer
and say, hey, can you pick up some milk? Like Unfortunately,
that is just the way that the world is, and
I don't need the narrative in my head. You are
part of an epidemic of disconnection every time I.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Do that, Amelia, do you think that if you're worrying
about this, like as Jesse is and many parents are
reading Jonathan Haight and listening to Princess Kate, that you're
probably not doing a shit job. Do you know what
I mean?

Speaker 1 (46:29):
I do know what you mean.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
And in fact, there have been studies on how much
time millennial parents are spending with their kids versus parents
of other generations, not ex don't worry. It's more millennials
versus boomers, and they've found that millennials are spending way
more time with their kids per week than boomers ever did.
So there is evidence that the style of parenting that
we are being told to embrace is much more intensive

(46:52):
than what previous generations.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Have had to do. They were probably off for a
smoke some of the time the generation.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
And also, you know, just the tropes you think about
mothers at home with kids forever, so way before phones
is that she's on the phone to her mom, she's
talking to the neighbor over the back fence's doing a
million things like I don't think that it used to be. Oh,
before phones, parents just paid full attention to their children
at all times if they were around them, and that

(47:19):
distracted parents are a new thing. I mean, of course,
this all goes to say, as you've already pointed out, Jesse,
we all know the truth and the facts of what
phones have done to our attention. But I think it's
like a binary notion that once parents used to pay
attention and now they don't.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yes, do you think, Oh? In fact, I think it's
a fallacy.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
I think like there were all sorts of ways that
parents were distracted in previous generations that had nothing to
do with phones. Look, here's an example from my own
life that takes us out of parenting into what phones
are doing to our brains in general. I recently subscribed
to a print newspaper and I'm getting it every day
of the week, and on my way into work here
this morning, I read the print newspaper as opposed to

(48:01):
droom scrolling on my phone, and I can tell you
that the experience that you have, I'm not telling you
anything you don't know, but the experiences you've finished reading
the newspaper, you fold it up, you put it in
the recycling, you feel like, A you know what the
news is today, and B you feel considerably calmer. Then
if you've been jumping around the internet trying to read
the entire Internet in a forty minute commute.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
And also you've kind of served a broader plate of things,
aren't you in a way, because on a homepage you'll
click the most salacious headlines and so on, whereas in
a newspaper it's kind of everything is there and you've
only got that. But back to Kate for a second.
So a lot of people obviously have come with the
criticism of like, what do you know when your princess
in your palace? Which fair, but also this is very

(48:45):
much Kate's wheelhouse. So as we all know, royals have
to pick some causes and it's tricky. It's kind of
like a first lady. Kate's role is very similar to this, right,
An American first lady would have to be like, I
need some causes so that I look busy. But they
can't be controversial. Yeah, so they can't be anything that
upsets anyone too much. It needs to look like I'm
trying to do good in the world. And when I

(49:07):
say that, I don't mean it entirely snick. I'm sure,
of course they want to. I'm sure Kate of course
wants to, and early childhood is her thing. This article
was published on the Royal Foundation Center for Early Childhood site,
which is Kate's thing, right, So the Royal Foundation at
her and Wills and they picked their stuff. What you
will notice if you've been looking at the Royal headlines
lately is that Kate and Williams seemed to be on

(49:28):
a humanization mission. And again I don't mean that cynically,
but the narrative put across by Prince Harry in particular
lately has kind of painted Kate and Wills as like
those stuffy, emotionless like old guard royals. And you know,
over here me and Meg's are like the real people
who are like, we're just letting it all hang out.
And you'll notice that William lately has made a couple

(49:50):
of really strategic decisions. One was to be interviewed by
Eugene Levy on a quite random travel show in which
he came across very human, very relaxed. And then he
also did an interview this weekend because one of his
passion projects, of course is mental health, as is Harry's,
and he did a interview this weekend with a woman
who had lost her husband to suicide. And it's a

(50:10):
very touching, affecting, genuine piece of content when you see it.
And I think that both he and Kate are kind
of coming up in that as we know, you know,
it's not going to be that long. Probably no one
wants to say that out loud, but it's not going
to be that long before he's king, and he's setting
the table for this is who I really am. And
I think he's pushing back on the narrative that they're cold,

(50:32):
and the best way for Kate to do that because
her public persona, not unlike Posh, is perfection control thinness,
no question, but like you know, always be perfect. But
she is clearly a very warm and engaged mother, and
she clearly cares a lot about kids, So this is
her cause and she's really into it. I think it's
tricky though, because anything you say about parenting is inevitably

(50:56):
controversial because it pushes all our judgment buttons.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
It's just so loaded, no matter how much research goes
into it. And I think that that's because parents have
never taken the job more seriously, and there's never been
more advice and bombardment of like you must do this,
you mustn't do that. I think parents are completely overwhelmed.
We do, of course know this to be true, but
any sense that we're having a finger wagged at us,

(51:21):
I think generates this emotional response. Whereas I compared that
to Kate Winslet, who's actually been banging on with the
same message for a really long time and has been
part of campaigns, and something about her messaging felt like
it was more empowering to parents than it was shamey.
And she basically says, you don't have to give your
kid a phone, like you can hold off. And she's

(51:44):
got kids who are now in the early twenties, but
she's like, I never gave them a phone, they never
got on social media. I just very kind of no
bullshit about it. And for some reason I had more
tolerance for that approach than this one.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Maybe so since we're talking about the messaging, I want
to ask you both about the difference between Kate and
William's approach to this subject and Harry and Maggan's, because
both of them are talking a lot about the impact
of the digital world on young minds.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
But there's a key difference.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
Kate is talking here about phones in general and digital
devices in general, whereas Megan and Harry have been very
explicitly focused on the dangers of social media. Do you
get annoyed about the social media message as well, or
is it more just the blanket phone message.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
I wonder if it's the more specific the message the better.
I found this really vague. Yes, And I also thought,
and this is where I guess the privileged discussion goes up,
like it's easier if you have a kid who's getting
picked up from school. Right there are people with twelve
year olds who their kid has to get two buses
in a train to and from school, and whether or
not they need a phone is sort of dependent on that.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
So I'm sorry, but I mean, my kids are teenagers
and they have phones. I'm looking forward to the social
media ban. I've been on the record of saying that
I think it's a great idea, and it's definitely allowed
me to make a decision about my son, who's the
younger one that I feel like I've got ammunition ammunition
from the government on that stoked about it, but it
is very unrealistic. It's great, like, and I know there

(53:15):
will be lots of parents will hear this and then
message and go, I never gave my kids a phone
or a screen, but like, what are they doing these
kids who don't have that? Because it's the equivalent now
of when I came home from school, I'd watch TV
for a bit, you know, I'd watch TV. And I
know that phones are different from TV because the short
form videos are boiling their minds and everything. But mindless

(53:35):
pleasures that involve screens are not new. This is new,
and I think it's really great that we're pushing back
on the tech bros and all of those things. But
it really does, as you point out, Jesse, become a
division of like who is supervising their kids at all
times and giving them really wholesome, active, improving tasks and
activities and classes. Because we're also told don't overschedule them,

(53:57):
don't be a tiger parent. Da da da dah. Let
them get bored. Yeah, let them get bored, let them
like who is super? And that does come back to
the privilege. I think it's interesting because I think that
as we're knowing more and more and more about this impact,
in five years, we will look at phones around kids
a bit like we look at smoking around kids. I
do think that. I also think, though, that there will
be a massive class gap in that situation, because I

(54:20):
hear middle class parents around me say, oh, I'm not
going to be strict about lots of things, but sugar
and screens, no, you know, And that is a very
sort of classist division that suggests I've got time and
resources to do all these things with my children that
you lazy people who have other things to do and

(54:41):
want to just hand your kid a phone or a
screen don't have. It's interesting because I think it's one
of those times when where we started with this is
we know it's right, but it's going to take a
while for us to really figure out what parenting looks
like without screens. That is all we've got time for.
On this Monday out Loud is a massive thank you

(55:01):
to all of you who are here with us to
start off the week and hopefully stick with us as
we go through it, and to our fabulous team for
putting the show together. Friends, don't forget you can watch
us on YouTube. Why wouldn't you want to do that?
And we'll be back in your ears tomorrow with that
deep dive about the Victoria Beckham docker where we'll go
to all the juicy places, We'll go to all the
where was Brooklyn? Was that skirt too short?

Speaker 3 (55:26):
How is that woman's name?

Speaker 2 (55:29):
So you then eat the whisper. Shout out to any
Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you love the show and
you want to support us, subscribing to Mamma Mia is
the very best way to do it. There's a link
in the episode description

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