December 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Should you 'shed' friends every seven years? We hear out the expert who says yes. She also knows why you feel like you have no mates, and has some advice for how to attract some new ones. And no, Jessie, Em and Holly don't all like it.
Also, the new micro-compatibility test for prospective partners. Lead question: How long before a flight do you like to get to the airport?
Plus, all our recommendations. One of which is for the stellar Out Loud gift guide, coming into your inbox from the Holly Out Loud newsletter tomorrow — but only if you're subscribed:
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Recommendations
Em recommends the Skoop Anti Chafe Balm that she swears by.
Jessie recommends The Names by Florence Knapp.
Holly recommends A Very Outloud Gift Guide, the ultimate one-stop shop on the Holly Out Loud Substack. This gift guide releases Saturday morning.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to
MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking
about on Friday, the fifth of December. And I am
Holly Wayne Wright.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I am m Burnham.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And here's what's on our agenda for today. M here
is how you pick a partner. God, don't worry about
the big value alignment stuff. We are worried about micro compatibilities.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm worried about everything at this point.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
We are working out what your micro compatibilities are. Just
think about for a moment, what time you like to
get to the airport. That's what we're going to be discussing.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And we have our weekly recos. I'm going to try
to not talk about F one for the entire segment,
but you know, no promise. It's a big week.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But first Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
A woman named Daniel Bayard Jackson is a female friendship
coach and educator. She has a theory about your friendships.
Here's what she said on the Mel Robbins podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Recently, women replace about half of their friends every seven years.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Yeah, so men and women. Yeah, there's research that finds
that we replace half of our friends every seven years.
I hope that that makes people feel a little less
ashamed if they have friendships that don't work out, because
what that says to me is that there's this natural
pruning that happens throughout your life. I also hope that
that has people release any shame around needing to make
(01:39):
new friends, because I hear people say I'm out here
making friends at forty two. I should have had all
my friends from high school. Really, because I know some
of the friends I had in high school. It would
not be appropriate for us to still be friends. It
wouldn't make sense to where I am right now or
the values I have right now. And so if we
are dropping or shedding new friends every seven years, that
(02:01):
means we need to be picking up new ones because
what does that churn rate look like? How am I
positioning myself to invite new friendships into my life? So
I hope it shows us that we will always be
having to make new friends.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm about to get pruned when the seven years I
could go, I might be about to fall.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Currently, I am just about to enter one.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So I start a new one at thirty five, and
I'm thirty five in like a less than a month,
So that's my new cycle. But Jackson says that this
research means a lot of us find ourselves in seasons
of friendlessness because we've shed. But it's quite hard to
acquire new friends, especially as an adult.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
If seven years sounds familiar, that is because it corresponds
with the seven year itch, which we hear about in
romantic relationships. So there's this theory that human development is
marked by seven year cycles, and apparently your personality changes,
there's new cognitive skills.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Look, what do we.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Think do we think friendship shedding is important?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
This is an audio media. Man, you're watching us on
YouTube shaking.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I just close my eyes.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And shook my head. I hate this so much. I
feel like there's always something new with friendships. We always
say women, the most important relationships in your life is
the friendships you have with other women, And yet we
do shit like this, Well, like, after seven years you're
done with them, You're gonna get someone else. We never
do this for romantic relationships. And every time this happens
(03:39):
to a friend of mine who I haven't heard from
in a really.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Long time, So you think it does happen.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It does happen for sure, but I haven't seen a
long time, haven't heard from her in a long time.
They break up with their partner and they have no one,
They have no friends because they've been shedding, and they
do it like unconsciously. I feel like we are less
likely to break up with friends. We kind of just
stop staying in touch, and then that's when people start
reaching out to you again, and then they get into
a new relationship, and then you get shredded again, and
(04:05):
then you get a new relationship and then get shredded again.
And it just feels like I have to constantly try
to keep up with friendship trends just to make sure
I'm maintaining my own friendships.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Do you shared friends every seven years? No, it is
your core group of friends. How long do you think
you've had them.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I think I've had my core group of friends for
seven years.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, because I reckon Probably from when you started work.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, my first friends are from when I started here
at my MA.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So you like bonded in that intense way you do
in a new workplace.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I don't want to know. I don't want Todd.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's time for shedding.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
No is a seven year shred just means that you're
about to enter a different life stage.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It's not shred, it's shed shed. But the only reason
I'm correcting you on that because generally people who correct
people are annoying, and the clearly annoying. But is that
shred sounds brutal like your whereas this is shedding, which
sounds more gentle, kind of like it's just something that
happens organically.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
You know it is, and it's still stuck.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
To the root.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I went back to the research, though, and your point
is an important one.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
M The researchers say this happens.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
This is a phenomenon that they can point to and go,
this happens in people's lives. So I was researching Jackson
because the question is how you would share a friendship
like this, right? And I found this radit thread of
this woman who had clearly got this advice that you
shared every seven years and a friend kept reaching out.
Is actually from the perspective of the friend who got
(05:35):
shared and she shared what this woman sent to her
to say, friendship's over. So she basically said, hey, haven't
seen each other in a few weeks. Getting a weird
vibe is.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Everything okay, and this is what she said.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Hey, I wanted to wait until after the holidays, and
I wanted to try and gather my thoughts together in
the best way. But that's not fair to you. I
really love you and your family, and I value the
friendship we had. I've been trying for a while now
to figure out how exactly to say this, but I
think you said it well.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
We've outgrown each other.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Drag this out because that doesn't benefit either of us.
But I want you to know that I really enjoyed
the time we had together, and I truly hope you
do well moving forward.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I would rather die than send that message.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's worse than a breakup. That's so bad.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
It is so bad.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Ghost.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
It's really important to have those long term friendships that
you've had for years and years and years, and apparently
they are like again seven signs or seven things that
you need at least a few of them to have
this person be a lifelong friend. So a few of
them are really obvious, like you've got to be able
to speak the same language, right, But sense of humor,
(06:45):
values are really important, and career trajectory is apparently really important.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, I want to have to question you about values
and career trajectory because I got a little bit itchy
when she said some of my friendships from high school
wouldn't be appropriate and they wouldn't reflect the values of
who I am today. That sound to me like a
job interview kind of. And also like your friends, you know,
(07:11):
there's that thing of like your friends are a reflection
of you, almost as if oh, you don't reflect very
well on me, so I can't be around you, which
I don't like that idea. Do we want total alignment
from our friends? No, thought, we have friends who share
our values.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And so with those seven things, the idea is that
there's a few of them that you've got. And another
one is hobbies and another is taste in music. So
I also bristle at that holly because I think that
the life stage where this comes really obvious is when
some people in the friendship group have kids and some don't.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
And I think that there can be this thing among
parents where it's like I've outgrown you.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I've outgrown you with your sleepins and your yeah, and
I really there's a snobbery to that, and also a
sense that your values change overnight, and I'm not sure
that that's necessarily true, and I think it's so real shame.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I think it depends what you're looking for in
your friends. Like we're going to get to friend groups
in a minute, but often you're a friend group that
you have will have bonded in a certain time in
your life, just like we were just talking about with you,
m And maybe that time in your life, maybe you
were at school, or you were at college, or you
were in an early job or whatever, and you probably
were spending heaps of intense time together, whether at work
(08:29):
or living together or going out or whatever, and so
that bonded you in a certain way. But once that
stops and everything, you know, people spin off out into
the other groups. Sometimes you do realize that you didn't
have as much in common as you thought, or not
even as much in common, but that you didn't gel
as well as you thought, and actually it was circumstance
that was the glue. But then other times you think, well,
(08:51):
we're nothing alike, but I still really like hanging out
with you. You know, we don't have that much in common,
maybe we disagree politically, maybe you know, I do have
friends like that where I'm like, there are some things
that we fundamentally don't agree on, but you know that
doesn't mean I don't like you.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Is also a question of time and energy.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
What the research says is that you've got the capacity
to maintain about three to five close close intimate friendships.
So if you've only got that, and then you can
see how the trading in and out can happen.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But I would say that my three to five close
friendships are really long term, are longer than seven years.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Maybe one one in.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
The last seven years who's kind of come in, and
then the others might be situational or life stage. But
those ones, I think there's something critical about having people
who've known you for a really long time.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I also think that when I think about like my
closest friends, it's from like my own point of view,
and like you three are my closest friends, I don't
necessarily know if I fall in that same category for
those certain friends. So I feel like where I would
probably bristle is that if I think these are lifelong
friendships for seven years and then they get to my
seven year mark and they're like, actually no.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Because I think that's true. I think there are some
people who are lifelong friends no matter what. Yeah, their
family pretty much is the way I see that. And
then there are people who are friends who you like
hanging out with, but it's not necessarily bonded on. However,
in defense of new friendships, the part about this that
I did like is just saying you should always be
open to new friendships because life is long. Like it's
(10:29):
not like we everything exciting happens in the first two
decades and then you're set, and this is like, these
are the people you stuck with now to travel through
life like, all kinds of adventures continue to happen, and
you bump into interesting people all along the way, and
if you like someone enough, you'll make room for them
in your life. It probably won't be the kind of
room that you had in those early days, as in,
(10:51):
you know, we're staying over every night and we're going
out and we're doing this, and that. It might be
our lives are busy, we're only going to see each
other every few months, but I really like you. I
want you in my world. I think staying open to
that rather than closing the door is good.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And also not feeling shame about being at a stage
where you feel like your green light is on thinking
I'm actually really open to some new friends. I know
lots of people who who say it with like this
vulnerability of just like, I'm feeling a bit lonely and
I don't feel connected at the moment, and I would
love some new friends.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I want to bring up something else about friendship that
was really interesting this week, and hear what you two
think about it. So there's an essay on Substack by
a writer called harneit Core, and she wrote a piece
called I don't think most of us are lonely. I
think we're obsessed with a friend group that doesn't exist
and never did. She opens this article with this, you
(11:42):
know the one six people who met in college and
still get dinner every Thursday. They have a group chat
that's actually active. They take trips together, they show up
with soup and someone's sick. They exist in every sitcom,
every wedding toast, every podcast where someone casually mentions my
girls like it's the most natural thing in the world.
Core writes, this friend group is fiction, but we've stared
(12:02):
at it so long we've started to believe it's the baseline.
She says, if you think about the people that you
talk to more often in your life, she said, if
you think you'll only make a list of all the
people you speak to in a week, she says, why
do we devalue all those little relationships. The coworker that
you vent to, the neighbor who held the elevator, the
cousin who calls you on long drives. None of them
(12:22):
feel like they count because they're not the group. But
what if all that is friendship? What if we have
more than we think and we've just been trained to
disqualify it. What do we think about that? Do we
think we are always striving for a particular version of
friendship that maybe is nowhen in as common as we
think it is.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think I definitely strived for that in my early twenties,
Like I saw what friendship was meant to look like,
and I wanted mind to reflect on that, to the
point where I would start to call my friends out
if they weren't hanging out with me enough. I remember
I one of my really good friends, I wanted to
get dinner with her and we were trying to organize
a date and she's like, I'm really busy this week.
(13:04):
I was like, well, what are you doing on this day?
And she's like, oh, I'm meeting up with a friend.
Why I made at the gym and I was like,
I think you need to reprioritize your friendship. You're hot, cool,
and I think about that all the time. I was
like a couple of mons at that. I saw that
every week. I don't know why I said that.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
It's true though, there's this like vision that you torment
yourself with that you imagine that. You know, it's the
long table with fifteen women who are just have been
close since high school, and you just.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Think God, like the second effects, like you just picture
yourself at a bar and like a friend plongs down
and you just like straight away start talking about their
sex life. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
But I think to the point made in that substack post,
I think there are obviously different tiers of friendship. But
I also want to validate people who do talk to
their coworker, they do talk to their neighbor, maybe they're married,
maybe they speak to people at the school gate, whatever,
and they still feel lonely. And this researcher who was
(14:07):
on mel Robbins this Jackson said that there are three
different types of loneliness, and the first is called intimate loneliness,
and it's when you don't feel truly seen, and you
probably don't feel truly seen by your coworker who you
share a sandwich with.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Once a week. Like there is a level of.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Intimate close friendships where you can call up and say
the most, you know, the darkest, most terrific, most embarrassing
thought that you've had that week. Sometimes I just have
these thoughts and there is a specific friend that I
will go to and maybe I haven't talked for in
two weeks, but I'll just dump it and go just
confirm it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Are we all thinking this?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And she'll go yet, nahna, and just validate it, And
so you feel seen in that exchange.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Do you have a group like this? Who around this
table has a group? As described by Core in that newsletter.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
When I was at UNI, I met a group of people.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Two of them are guys and now they're girlfriends, fiancees,
and there's probably eight of us and we're in a
group chat and we talk most days and we go
away together.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That's your friend group.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
That's our friend group.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
And they're the people I see down the road at barbecues,
zack kids grow up like all of that.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I just see that as a real care.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So you have the group. Do you have the group?
You have the group, they're the girls that you're here.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I do have the group. It was a bigger group,
and then it's like silos sometimes into smaller groups, depending
Like I feel like when you're single, you see each
other more, and then when you're in a relationship, they
kind of see each other more and they're like couple friends.
And I used to really hate that because I was like, no,
the group has to say together, it has to be together.
It has to be like six of us at all times.
And now a lot of them I have like moved
(15:46):
into state and they have like different schedules. And it
took me a while to kind of learn how to
feel safe in an environment where I'm not seeing them
constantly and not having that like physical interaction that does
look like I'm on an episode of Friends. Because I
always approach my friendships in a very like egotistical way,
whereas like it has to look like that, it has
(16:07):
to feel like that, and if we're doing it like that,
then that's the right way.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I think You're being on stem about like lots of
us might say, Oh, that's really superficial. I wanted to say,
that's not what friendship looks like. But we've all really
rusted onto these ideas of how friendship looks and I
think that that's one of the things that looking at
it from the outside rather than being inside it. We
need to figure out which one of those things is
more important in a moment.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Oh, I'm so.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Excited to talk about this. We're talking about the real
dating deal breaking.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Am.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm bringing some anti energy to the table, and I'm
being like, I need to give you some advice. I
need to give you some advice because I read something
this week made a lot of sense to me, because
I know that you're in the business of auditioning a
future life partner. Yeah, she's not just dating, she is
auditioning a future life partner.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I can't wait to get in a relationship so we
can stop. Every time second I hear.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
That Ray song, you know that song that's ever mining, Well.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
The hell is that?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Husband?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I just think of what was on? Can I get
them one more time? Not because I think you need one,
but because you think you need one. I'm always like,
you know, I think you.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Think I think that I think I need one, I.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Think wants.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Anyway to go on a date.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
No one was making you go on a date.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
M I know you have a list of questions because
we've talked about it before, that you like to discuss
on first dates, right, but I have sex, marriage, kids.
Oh my god, to see this is a problem. I
read this article by Polly Hudson and the UK Guardian
that suggests that people are keen to skip the small
talk these days. She writes, so wady conversation topics such
as life goals, like the things that you just mentioned
(17:50):
are deal breakers and are now brought up straight away.
That's what you're doing, right, And I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So glad I can be the guinea pig for this topic.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Hudson says, this is a mistake. What matters to longevity
is how long before a flight do you like to
get to the airport? Do you wander supermarket aisles when
you go shopping or do you go in with a
hard list for maximum efficiency? Would you walk out of
a movie if it was terrible? She's saying that basically,
these are the things that really matter because if you
(18:19):
have a partnership where these things are really different. They
might seem really cute at first, but one day it
will be the end of your relationship. The criticism of
this will be on an endless loop. One day you'll
feel instantly murderous at the mere mention of an airport.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Like with the flight example.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Now I want to know two things. I want to
know what we would add to this list of like
life deal breakers, and also whether you really should look
for someone who shares the same ones as you or
whether you want someone who does something different. So, for
let's take the airport example. Right, Yeah, how long before
a flight do you like to get to an airport?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I have a lot of airport anxiety. You might have
noticed for the outlaudtoid and travel with anyone, No, I
didn't see. Yeah, I have to be there three hours before.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
So imagine you meet the perfect person, but he's an
hour person. He's an hour before person. That's it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now we're breaking up.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Why are you or are you one day going to
come to a glorious compromise of ninety minutes. I'm not sure, Jesse,
what about you?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I'm probably more like two hours because I do have
a lot of anxiety about missing the fly.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I just don't want to be seen as the person
who misses.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, I think that's embarrassing, and walking on last and
everyone looking at you like you've held up the flight.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I don't like that.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
But I married a three hour and so there is
definitely there's always a chat, there's always a conversation.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
We've got to find a happy medium.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
And did you know that about each other during the
dating press? And in some.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Ways I see, I would argue that in some instances
you want your yin and your yan. Yes, you want
two people who approach things very differently to get to
a lifestyle that is actually quite enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
You don't want two people competing for like, well it's
the latest we can get to the airport, because then
you just never go on home.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And also, I would argue in some of these things,
you want to pick someone who's your yang so that
you don't have to do the difficult shit. For example,
are you a person who if you arrive on holiday,
the hotel looks nothing like the photos? Are you changing
the room?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, you got to get the Instagram. Got to get
the photos the Instagram.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Imagine you turn up on that holiday, it's seven nights yeah,
and sunk cost fallacy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
The person you've turned up with goes, no, this is
what we paid for.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
We will stay in the shower where the water doesn't
go like.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I would never, I would never change never.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
No way, it doesn't look like the photos.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So I get to let's say we're going to Thailand. No,
I haven't been Challe since I was twenty three. But anyway,
say I'm going to Thailand and I've booked my resort
and it looked lovely, but I paid because package deal
A freaking paid and I turn up and it's not great.
I would be upset and frustrated for the entire week.
But I would put up with it, no question. And
the problem is I would brands.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I will then post on your Instagram, the site, yeahs.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Other things, but it's not it's about I just couldn't
bring myself to walk up to the counter. I'm just
not wired that way. Whereas I know plenty of people
who one night in a hotel, if the bed's not whatever,
they'll go downstairs and go I need a better room.
That's the two types of people thing. And this is
one of those examples where I think, if you're like
me and you're avoidant. It would probably be good if
(21:34):
my partner was a walk out person. It's like, do
you send food back?
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I never send food back, And the problem is I
never send foodbacks. I never want to be seen as
really difficult. But if I was with someone who did,
that would be great because I would sit there going,
this is shit. But I don't want to tell them.
You tell them, you tell them.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
There was something I saw on Instagram last night that
I went to tag Holly in and then I went,
maybe she'll get offended. It said myself and my partner
reject traditional gender roles. I don't clean and he doesn't
fix broken things, and our house is dirty and broken.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And I was like, this is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Bread.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So this is what we're trying to plant here.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Here's one that I really struggle with and has caused
friction in my relationship. And I didn't know before. We
took me a while to learn it. When you go
to the beach, do you like to sit and lie
and soak it up and have hours at the beach
or your quick dip and get back in the car.
Because I have married a dip back in the car
and that's not relaxing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, because we're from the outer suburbs, so we had
beach days. So we've only acknowledged the beach in the
sense of a whole day.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
It's a tree.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Every time I go to the beach. It's a total trait.
How about you.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
My big one is if I am dating someone, I
need to find out what type of holiday family they're from,
Like are they a hiking family or a hotel family,
the two different types. I'm a hotel family. Yeah, when
my family goes on holidays, surprise, we stay in hotels,
we eat at restaurants, we go back to the hotel.
I can't date someone who goes hike and then sight
(23:05):
see and then hike again, and then we'll into the
next sight seeing place and then eating sandwiches while we're
walking to the next hiking place. That is absolutely not
Absolutely my theory.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Is okay, So holiday styles.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
I wonder, speaking of holiday styles, having someone who's the
travel agent of the relationship, right and they go we're
going here, we're going here, hiker blah blah blah blah,
like they organize it. I think that sometimes a good
mix is having one of those and the other's just
a passenger. And they're happy to just show up and
they get sent the itinerary.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Did they look at it?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Not?
Speaker 4 (23:39):
And they're not allowed to have opinions. But the other
person is like the book or the blah, the blah,
like I think that they're a lot that's fair fair
where if you sat and on paper it might not
look compatible, but it actually really.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Works for you.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Are you a que jumper? This is another one, right,
So imagine you turn up to a concert, flight queue
a restaurant and there's a line and you could cut in,
like not rudely, like elbow a child out of the way,
but like just hover around a certain space, and then
just you're running.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Late that flight and you go, hey, excuse me my flights?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Can I come to the front?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Can I go to the front?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you do that or not? Are you a cue
jumper or not?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I'd be more to be in the presence of a
que jumper, mortifying.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I've tried to do some que jumping when we went
to Oasis recently and a I got yelled at by strangers,
which was and b Brent nearly divorced me on the spot,
not that we're married, but I was like we're not
exactly jumping the queue. We're just standing here and the
queue will just envelop us and move forward. And he
was like, no, it won't.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I hate that. I can't even do the whole thing
where if you see friends ahead of you and they
wave to you, I can't even go to them.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I'm always I'm like, I'm back here.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I'll catch up with you when I get in.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
So in some situations, people please, and in some situations not.
Do you bringe your TV shows or do you parcel
them out like treats? This is another important one. Sometimes
you're there and you're watching TV and you're like another
one and they're like no, no, no, no, we're done.
We'll wait there.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh you know what, the relationships done? We're watching every
single episode of this show. Will you talk about this
all on the first date.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
The idea is little lifestyle things that actually matter more
maybe than going like big picture values. And I think
it's true these are the things that couples fight about.
What time to get to the airport. Bren always thinks
that I've packed too much, like when we're packing the
car to go away. Always whenever you go to on
a shopping trip, not that shopping trip, but like, you know,
(25:36):
I want to go to the shops. He acts like
he's being attacked by a bear in a shop. He
has to get out of there as quickly as possible,
Like you just want to go. I just want to
look at that, and it's like raw. This is the
stuff people fight about, and it also tells you a
lot about their personality.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, I reckon. There's a little checklist that you should
probably go through.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Just it's just getting harder and harder.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It's going to make it easier because then you think,
if I want someone to do this for me, like
get us to the front of the queue, I need
to find a guy who doesn't mind elbowing children out
of the way.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
We're forming a very specific guy at this time. I
don't think that exists.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
After the break our best recommendations, including a very out
loud gift guide from Holly and a very very helpful
recommendation from m.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
It is Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
So I've got a very specific and slightly self serving
recommendation because I'm recommending our gift guide of recommendations, oh,
which is in the newsletter tomorrow. In exception, if you
are a subscriber to the Holy out Loud newsletter tomorrow
in your inbox, you're going to get the out Loud
Gift Guide. And that's literally what it's called a very
(27:12):
out Loud gift Guide. It's got gifts in it for
everybody in your life. So it's got gifts for the
m in your life. You've given me those ideas for
the Jesse in your life. She's given me those ideas
for the Miror in your life. She's given me what
hers are. You can imagine, can't you. And then also
a general excellence category, which is just really good gifts
for people. Some of them are buy out louders, some
(27:35):
of them are things out louders have recommended to us.
Loads of books, like loads of books. So you're going
to get that in your inbox if you subscribe to
the Holy Outloud newsletter. There is a link in the
show notes to do so, of course it's free. I'm
going to give you one tip of one of the
things that's in there. Actually I'm wearing the wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Shirt for this.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I've got this, but I just bought it for a
friend of mine. So this is a paperclip necklace from
a brand called Francesca.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I think you've got one around my rear bracelet.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
They're engraved and.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
It's engraved and it has Luna's birthday.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
So they are a paper clip necklace and that you
can get a gold one, a silver one, a rose
gold one, and so they're cool. But also mine has
got the kids' names and mine and Brent's names on it.
But it's really subtle, so it's like you can't quite
see it. Yeah, I like that about it.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, it's called.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
The etched necklace from Francesca, and I have just bought
one for a friend. I reckon it's a great gift
for somebody. They're a business from Hobart, so we've got
lots of ideas like that. Also, we've got the best
beauty stuff. Of course, I've got some gardening thing, so
Lincoln show notes for the Out Loud Gift Guide. That
is my reco for this week.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
My recommendation is a book, and I've nearly finished one of.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
The buzziest books of the year.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
It's been called the best debut fiction book in forever.
It is called The Names by Florence Napp. Have you
read it yet?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I haven't read it yet. I've heard so much about
it to read it, although I've heard it's dark in
the mood.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Yeah, so i'd heard about it, but I had no
idea of the premise, just that everyone who read it
said it's brilliant, You've got to read it. And then
I started it and Luca kept saying, are you okay?
And I would just be sobbing in bed, like you
know how a little life or there are certain books
that catch you at a time in your life where
it's like you've got to be in the headspace. It'll
(29:20):
make you cry. It's really it's heavy. It's an emotional journey,
but it is so original. The premise is basically it
begins with a mother who is about to register the
birth of her son and she's faced with this dilemma
because in her husband's family, you name the son after
the father, and her husband, as it turns out, is
(29:43):
not a good man.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
He's a bad bad man.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
And so she's deciding whether to give him that name,
give him a name she wants, or give him the
name that her daughter wants for this little baby. And
it follows the trajectory of the three lives. So what
would happen if she chose this name, this name or
this name?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And it is just so.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Clever and twist d I mean, ultimately it's hopeful, but
it's about three versions of the same life.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I love.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It's really really good.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What a crazy idea?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, I don't read that in the holidays.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So my recommendation today F one. No, it's not my
real recommendation. It's just like a PSA. The last F
one race is going to be at twelve am on Monday,
so we'll it's decent time for all of us. Abidabi
the Orlando wins.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Jess is in a great mood.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Out loud as you may have missed last Fridays but
and went on like a twenty minute rant about front
No a lot of out louders.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Were very on board, which I was so excited and.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Some and then some of them were not. And then
some of them got upset because I made a throwaway
comment that I didn't think it was a sport. I
take that back. I was being facetious. Of course it's
a sport. You just don't use, you know, your athleticism
to do it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Have you seen this.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
And the head and the neck? And they okay?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
So remember last week I said could be anyone's championship.
It's still could be anyone's championship. Because in the last
race at Qatar, I said, guitar last time, sorry Qatar.
Max came first, Oscar came second, and Orlando came forth.
McLaren really really stuffed up the team strategy. I think
(31:30):
they were trying too hard to make it look like
they weren't choosing favorites, and then they just said, actually,
we hate them both. I don't want them to go Max.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Some of the other commentary I saw was upset with you,
Jesse for not backing the Aussie. Would you like to
retract your support for Lando?
Speaker 4 (31:45):
And I'm pregnant and I find Lando very sexy on
my eyes.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Leave Jesse alone.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
But some people say, they said, look, I googled Lando,
never heard of him. I think he looks a bit
like Luca Local was stoked by it.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I just he's very handsome.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Micro compatibility. Do they have to like F one anyway?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yes, they do. Okay, So now this race, this last
last race, if Lando Norris gets spots one, two or three,
He's definitely going to be championship. For Max to win
the championship, he has to come first and Lando has
to come fourth. All later. Oh, I'm so excited. That's it.
That's it. Okay, okay. So my next recommendation, my actual one,
(32:27):
is this barmb I bought it here today. It's an
anti chaf bomb by the brand Scoop. I walk to work.
Everyone knows that I chase like a mom my thighs
rubbed together, they read.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I know it can get so sorry, it's so bad.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And then I have to walk with my legs like
far apart, like an elephant, like I'm stomping around the place.
So this anti chaf barm I've used a lot in
the past. This one's probably my favorite because it goes
on and you can't feel the product on your legs.
It doesn't feel sticky the longest time I used vaciline,
which I mean, great all purpose product, but you still
feel like the slimy and if it's hot, yeah, and
(33:06):
that doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like that.
It goes on and it just kind of feels like
a little like cream and it goes balmy and then
you stop feeling it and your legs just slide.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
It is so do you get it from them?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Get out of Door Beauty. It's around twenty five bucks.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Of course. Good.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It's such a good idea.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Great recco friends. That is all we have Loud allowed,
that is all we have time for today. Remember, of
course you can watch us on YouTube. You would have
just seen them do a very good yay. Yeah like here.
It is representation of shaping Spotify. Wrapt is out. It's
a big day. It takes over the culture for twenty
four hours. Yeah, and we need to thank all the
(33:45):
out louders who said that we were their favorite show.
Well didn't say it was evidenced in their phone.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
They are favorite people. And look, we don't take it
for granted. We are so honored.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Thank you so much for everyone who tagged us and
let us know when everyone who listened and laughed and
argued along with us and engaged. It is the greatest
privilege being a part of your day. And we are
cooking up some more fun, lots of surprises.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Big things for twenty twenty six. If we were on
your Spotify wrap list, of course, we'd love it if
you shared it told everyone else, because what better badge
of honor than to tell everyone you're a out louder.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Exactly right, Jesse, Oh, tell them about the book club.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Yeah. So last week we dropped the first episode of
our summer book Club series in partnership with Royal Caribbean.
It was about Miranda July's All Fours. We got such
great feedback, a lot of people who hadn't even read
the book but.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Just waited the book.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I hated the book, and we're very interested to hear
our candid commentary. The second book coming up is Great, Big,
Beautiful Life by Emily Henry. Holly and I have never
read an Emily Henry book.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I read two Emily Henry's books, I read Funny Story
and Happy Place. I love romantic tropes. However, I heard
this book is a bit different to her usual books.
It's less trophy. Okay, we're still romance.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
But so that's going to be our next Summer Book
Club EP. It is dropping on the twenty eighth of December,
so if you want to be a part of it,
make sure you start reading and meet us there. Thank
you to our team for helping us put this show together.
Group executive producer Ruth Devine, Executive producer Sashatanic.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer
is Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovic.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
We'll see you on Monday. Bye bye bye, Mama. Mia
acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've
recorded this podcast.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to
MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking
about on Friday, the fifth of December. And I am
Holly Wayne Wright.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I am m Burnham.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And here's what's on our agenda for today. M here
is how you pick a partner. God, don't worry about
the big value alignment stuff. We are worried about micro compatibilities.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm worried about everything at this point.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
We are working out what your micro compatibilities are. Just
think about for a moment, what time you like to
get to the airport. That's what we're going to be discussing.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And we have our weekly recos. I'm going to try
to not talk about F one for the entire segment,
but you know, no promise. It's a big week.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
But first Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
A woman named Daniel Bayard Jackson is a female friendship
coach and educator. She has a theory about your friendships.
Here's what she said on the Mel Robbins podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Recently, women replace about half of their friends every seven years.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Yeah, so men and women. Yeah, there's research that finds
that we replace half of our friends every seven years.
I hope that that makes people feel a little less
ashamed if they have friendships that don't work out, because
what that says to me is that there's this natural
pruning that happens throughout your life. I also hope that
that has people release any shame around needing to make
(01:39):
new friends, because I hear people say I'm out here
making friends at forty two. I should have had all
my friends from high school. Really, because I know some
of the friends I had in high school. It would
not be appropriate for us to still be friends. It
wouldn't make sense to where I am right now or
the values I have right now. And so if we
are dropping or shedding new friends every seven years, that
(02:01):
means we need to be picking up new ones because
what does that churn rate look like? How am I
positioning myself to invite new friendships into my life? So
I hope it shows us that we will always be
having to make new friends.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I'm about to get pruned when the seven years I
could go, I might be about to fall.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Currently, I am just about to enter one.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So I start a new one at thirty five, and
I'm thirty five in like a less than a month,
So that's my new cycle. But Jackson says that this
research means a lot of us find ourselves in seasons
of friendlessness because we've shed. But it's quite hard to
acquire new friends, especially as an adult.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
If seven years sounds familiar, that is because it corresponds
with the seven year itch, which we hear about in
romantic relationships. So there's this theory that human development is
marked by seven year cycles, and apparently your personality changes,
there's new cognitive skills.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Look, what do we.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Think do we think friendship shedding is important?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
This is an audio media. Man, you're watching us on
YouTube shaking.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I just close my eyes.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And shook my head. I hate this so much. I
feel like there's always something new with friendships. We always
say women, the most important relationships in your life is
the friendships you have with other women, And yet we
do shit like this, Well, like, after seven years you're
done with them, You're gonna get someone else. We never
do this for romantic relationships. And every time this happens
(03:39):
to a friend of mine who I haven't heard from
in a really.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Long time, So you think it does happen.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It does happen for sure, but I haven't seen a
long time, haven't heard from her in a long time.
They break up with their partner and they have no one,
They have no friends because they've been shedding, and they
do it like unconsciously. I feel like we are less
likely to break up with friends. We kind of just
stop staying in touch, and then that's when people start
reaching out to you again, and then they get into
a new relationship, and then you get shredded again, and
(04:05):
then you get a new relationship and then get shredded again.
And it just feels like I have to constantly try
to keep up with friendship trends just to make sure
I'm maintaining my own friendships.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Do you shared friends every seven years? No, it is
your core group of friends. How long do you think
you've had them.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I think I've had my core group of friends for
seven years.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, because I reckon Probably from when you started work.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, my first friends are from when I started here
at my MA.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So you like bonded in that intense way you do
in a new workplace.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I don't want to know. I don't want Todd.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's time for shedding.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
No is a seven year shred just means that you're
about to enter a different life stage.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It's not shred, it's shed shed. But the only reason
I'm correcting you on that because generally people who correct
people are annoying, and the clearly annoying. But is that
shred sounds brutal like your whereas this is shedding, which
sounds more gentle, kind of like it's just something that
happens organically.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
You know it is, and it's still stuck.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
To the root.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I went back to the research, though, and your point
is an important one.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
M The researchers say this happens.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
This is a phenomenon that they can point to and go,
this happens in people's lives. So I was researching Jackson
because the question is how you would share a friendship
like this, right? And I found this radit thread of
this woman who had clearly got this advice that you
shared every seven years and a friend kept reaching out.
Is actually from the perspective of the friend who got
(05:35):
shared and she shared what this woman sent to her
to say, friendship's over. So she basically said, hey, haven't
seen each other in a few weeks. Getting a weird
vibe is.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Everything okay, and this is what she said.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Hey, I wanted to wait until after the holidays, and
I wanted to try and gather my thoughts together in
the best way. But that's not fair to you. I
really love you and your family, and I value the
friendship we had. I've been trying for a while now
to figure out how exactly to say this, but I
think you said it well.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
We've outgrown each other.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I don't want to.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Drag this out because that doesn't benefit either of us.
But I want you to know that I really enjoyed
the time we had together, and I truly hope you
do well moving forward.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I would rather die than send that message.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's worse than a breakup. That's so bad.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
It is so bad.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Ghost.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
It's really important to have those long term friendships that
you've had for years and years and years, and apparently
they are like again seven signs or seven things that
you need at least a few of them to have
this person be a lifelong friend. So a few of
them are really obvious, like you've got to be able
to speak the same language, right, But sense of humor,
(06:45):
values are really important, and career trajectory is apparently really important.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, I want to have to question you about values
and career trajectory because I got a little bit itchy
when she said some of my friendships from high school
wouldn't be appropriate and they wouldn't reflect the values of
who I am today. That sound to me like a
job interview kind of. And also like your friends, you know,
(07:11):
there's that thing of like your friends are a reflection
of you, almost as if oh, you don't reflect very
well on me, so I can't be around you, which
I don't like that idea. Do we want total alignment
from our friends? No, thought, we have friends who share
our values.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And so with those seven things, the idea is that
there's a few of them that you've got. And another
one is hobbies and another is taste in music. So
I also bristle at that holly because I think that
the life stage where this comes really obvious is when
some people in the friendship group have kids and some don't.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
And I think that there can be this thing among
parents where it's like I've outgrown you.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I've outgrown you with your sleepins and your yeah, and
I really there's a snobbery to that, and also a
sense that your values change overnight, and I'm not sure
that that's necessarily true, and I think it's so real shame.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah, I think it depends what you're looking for in
your friends. Like we're going to get to friend groups
in a minute, but often you're a friend group that
you have will have bonded in a certain time in
your life, just like we were just talking about with you,
m And maybe that time in your life, maybe you
were at school, or you were at college, or you
were in an early job or whatever, and you probably
were spending heaps of intense time together, whether at work
(08:29):
or living together or going out or whatever, and so
that bonded you in a certain way. But once that
stops and everything, you know, people spin off out into
the other groups. Sometimes you do realize that you didn't
have as much in common as you thought, or not
even as much in common, but that you didn't gel
as well as you thought, and actually it was circumstance
that was the glue. But then other times you think, well,
(08:51):
we're nothing alike, but I still really like hanging out
with you. You know, we don't have that much in common,
maybe we disagree politically, maybe you know, I do have
friends like that where I'm like, there are some things
that we fundamentally don't agree on, but you know that
doesn't mean I don't like you.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Is also a question of time and energy.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
What the research says is that you've got the capacity
to maintain about three to five close close intimate friendships.
So if you've only got that, and then you can
see how the trading in and out can happen.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
But I would say that my three to five close
friendships are really long term, are longer than seven years.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Maybe one one in.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
The last seven years who's kind of come in, and
then the others might be situational or life stage. But
those ones, I think there's something critical about having people
who've known you for a really long time.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I also think that when I think about like my
closest friends, it's from like my own point of view,
and like you three are my closest friends, I don't
necessarily know if I fall in that same category for
those certain friends. So I feel like where I would
probably bristle is that if I think these are lifelong
friendships for seven years and then they get to my
seven year mark and they're like, actually no.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Because I think that's true. I think there are some
people who are lifelong friends no matter what. Yeah, their
family pretty much is the way I see that. And
then there are people who are friends who you like
hanging out with, but it's not necessarily bonded on. However,
in defense of new friendships, the part about this that
I did like is just saying you should always be
open to new friendships because life is long. Like it's
(10:29):
not like we everything exciting happens in the first two
decades and then you're set, and this is like, these
are the people you stuck with now to travel through
life like, all kinds of adventures continue to happen, and
you bump into interesting people all along the way, and
if you like someone enough, you'll make room for them
in your life. It probably won't be the kind of
room that you had in those early days, as in,
(10:51):
you know, we're staying over every night and we're going
out and we're doing this, and that. It might be
our lives are busy, we're only going to see each
other every few months, but I really like you. I
want you in my world. I think staying open to
that rather than closing the door is good.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And also not feeling shame about being at a stage
where you feel like your green light is on thinking
I'm actually really open to some new friends. I know
lots of people who who say it with like this
vulnerability of just like, I'm feeling a bit lonely and
I don't feel connected at the moment, and I would
love some new friends.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I want to bring up something else about friendship that
was really interesting this week, and hear what you two
think about it. So there's an essay on Substack by
a writer called harneit Core, and she wrote a piece
called I don't think most of us are lonely. I
think we're obsessed with a friend group that doesn't exist
and never did. She opens this article with this, you
(11:42):
know the one six people who met in college and
still get dinner every Thursday. They have a group chat
that's actually active. They take trips together, they show up
with soup and someone's sick. They exist in every sitcom,
every wedding toast, every podcast where someone casually mentions my
girls like it's the most natural thing in the world.
Core writes, this friend group is fiction, but we've stared
(12:02):
at it so long we've started to believe it's the baseline.
She says, if you think about the people that you
talk to more often in your life, she said, if
you think you'll only make a list of all the
people you speak to in a week, she says, why
do we devalue all those little relationships. The coworker that
you vent to, the neighbor who held the elevator, the
cousin who calls you on long drives. None of them
(12:22):
feel like they count because they're not the group. But
what if all that is friendship? What if we have
more than we think and we've just been trained to
disqualify it. What do we think about that? Do we
think we are always striving for a particular version of
friendship that maybe is nowhen in as common as we
think it is.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think I definitely strived for that in my early twenties,
Like I saw what friendship was meant to look like,
and I wanted mind to reflect on that, to the
point where I would start to call my friends out
if they weren't hanging out with me enough. I remember
I one of my really good friends, I wanted to
get dinner with her and we were trying to organize
a date and she's like, I'm really busy this week.
(13:04):
I was like, well, what are you doing on this day?
And she's like, oh, I'm meeting up with a friend.
Why I made at the gym and I was like,
I think you need to reprioritize your friendship. You're hot, cool,
and I think about that all the time. I was
like a couple of mons at that. I saw that
every week. I don't know why I said that.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
It's true though, there's this like vision that you torment
yourself with that you imagine that. You know, it's the
long table with fifteen women who are just have been
close since high school, and you just.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Think God, like the second effects, like you just picture
yourself at a bar and like a friend plongs down
and you just like straight away start talking about their
sex life. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
But I think to the point made in that substack post,
I think there are obviously different tiers of friendship. But
I also want to validate people who do talk to
their coworker, they do talk to their neighbor, maybe they're married,
maybe they speak to people at the school gate, whatever,
and they still feel lonely. And this researcher who was
(14:07):
on mel Robbins this Jackson said that there are three
different types of loneliness, and the first is called intimate loneliness,
and it's when you don't feel truly seen, and you
probably don't feel truly seen by your coworker who you
share a sandwich with.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Once a week. Like there is a level of.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Intimate close friendships where you can call up and say
the most, you know, the darkest, most terrific, most embarrassing
thought that you've had that week. Sometimes I just have
these thoughts and there is a specific friend that I
will go to and maybe I haven't talked for in
two weeks, but I'll just dump it and go just
confirm it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Are we all thinking this?
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And she'll go yet, nahna, and just validate it, And
so you feel seen in that exchange.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Do you have a group like this? Who around this
table has a group? As described by Core in that newsletter.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
When I was at UNI, I met a group of people.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Two of them are guys and now they're girlfriends, fiancees,
and there's probably eight of us and we're in a
group chat and we talk most days and we go
away together.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
That's your friend group.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
That's our friend group.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
And they're the people I see down the road at barbecues,
zack kids grow up like all of that.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I just see that as a real care.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So you have the group. Do you have the group?
You have the group, they're the girls that you're here.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I do have the group. It was a bigger group,
and then it's like silos sometimes into smaller groups, depending
Like I feel like when you're single, you see each
other more, and then when you're in a relationship, they
kind of see each other more and they're like couple friends.
And I used to really hate that because I was like, no,
the group has to say together, it has to be together.
It has to be like six of us at all times.
And now a lot of them I have like moved
(15:46):
into state and they have like different schedules. And it
took me a while to kind of learn how to
feel safe in an environment where I'm not seeing them
constantly and not having that like physical interaction that does
look like I'm on an episode of Friends. Because I
always approach my friendships in a very like egotistical way,
whereas like it has to look like that, it has
(16:07):
to feel like that, and if we're doing it like that,
then that's the right way.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I think You're being on stem about like lots of
us might say, Oh, that's really superficial. I wanted to say,
that's not what friendship looks like. But we've all really
rusted onto these ideas of how friendship looks and I
think that that's one of the things that looking at
it from the outside rather than being inside it. We
need to figure out which one of those things is
more important in a moment.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Oh, I'm so.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Excited to talk about this. We're talking about the real
dating deal breaking.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Am.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm bringing some anti energy to the table, and I'm
being like, I need to give you some advice. I
need to give you some advice because I read something
this week made a lot of sense to me, because
I know that you're in the business of auditioning a
future life partner. Yeah, she's not just dating, she is
auditioning a future life partner.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I can't wait to get in a relationship so we
can stop. Every time second I hear.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
That Ray song, you know that song that's ever mining, Well.
Speaker 5 (17:05):
The hell is that?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Husband?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I just think of what was on? Can I get
them one more time? Not because I think you need one,
but because you think you need one. I'm always like,
you know, I think you.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Think I think that I think I need one, I.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Think wants.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Anyway to go on a date.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
No one was making you go on a date.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
M I know you have a list of questions because
we've talked about it before, that you like to discuss
on first dates, right, but I have sex, marriage, kids.
Oh my god, to see this is a problem. I
read this article by Polly Hudson and the UK Guardian
that suggests that people are keen to skip the small
talk these days. She writes, so wady conversation topics such
as life goals, like the things that you just mentioned
(17:50):
are deal breakers and are now brought up straight away.
That's what you're doing, right, And I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So glad I can be the guinea pig for this topic.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Hudson says, this is a mistake. What matters to longevity
is how long before a flight do you like to
get to the airport? Do you wander supermarket aisles when
you go shopping or do you go in with a
hard list for maximum efficiency? Would you walk out of
a movie if it was terrible? She's saying that basically,
these are the things that really matter because if you
(18:19):
have a partnership where these things are really different. They
might seem really cute at first, but one day it
will be the end of your relationship. The criticism of
this will be on an endless loop. One day you'll
feel instantly murderous at the mere mention of an airport.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Like with the flight example.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Now I want to know two things. I want to
know what we would add to this list of like
life deal breakers, and also whether you really should look
for someone who shares the same ones as you or
whether you want someone who does something different. So, for
let's take the airport example. Right, Yeah, how long before
a flight do you like to get to an airport?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I have a lot of airport anxiety. You might have
noticed for the outlaudtoid and travel with anyone, No, I
didn't see. Yeah, I have to be there three hours before.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
So imagine you meet the perfect person, but he's an
hour person. He's an hour before person. That's it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now we're breaking up.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Why are you or are you one day going to
come to a glorious compromise of ninety minutes. I'm not sure, Jesse,
what about you?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
I'm probably more like two hours because I do have
a lot of anxiety about missing the fly.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I just don't want to be seen as the person
who misses.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, I think that's embarrassing, and walking on last and
everyone looking at you like you've held up the flight.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I don't like that.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
But I married a three hour and so there is
definitely there's always a chat, there's always a conversation.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
We've got to find a happy medium.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
And did you know that about each other during the
dating press? And in some.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Ways I see, I would argue that in some instances
you want your yin and your yan. Yes, you want
two people who approach things very differently to get to
a lifestyle that is actually quite enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
You don't want two people competing for like, well it's
the latest we can get to the airport, because then
you just never go on home.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And also, I would argue in some of these things,
you want to pick someone who's your yang so that
you don't have to do the difficult shit. For example,
are you a person who if you arrive on holiday,
the hotel looks nothing like the photos? Are you changing
the room?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, you got to get the Instagram. Got to get
the photos the Instagram.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Imagine you turn up on that holiday, it's seven nights yeah,
and sunk cost fallacy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
The person you've turned up with goes, no, this is
what we paid for.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
We will stay in the shower where the water doesn't
go like.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I would never, I would never change never.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
No way, it doesn't look like the photos.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So I get to let's say we're going to Thailand. No,
I haven't been Challe since I was twenty three. But anyway,
say I'm going to Thailand and I've booked my resort
and it looked lovely, but I paid because package deal
A freaking paid and I turn up and it's not great.
I would be upset and frustrated for the entire week.
But I would put up with it, no question. And
the problem is I would brands.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I will then post on your Instagram, the site, yeahs.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Other things, but it's not it's about I just couldn't
bring myself to walk up to the counter. I'm just
not wired that way. Whereas I know plenty of people
who one night in a hotel, if the bed's not whatever,
they'll go downstairs and go I need a better room.
That's the two types of people thing. And this is
one of those examples where I think, if you're like
me and you're avoidant. It would probably be good if
(21:34):
my partner was a walk out person. It's like, do
you send food back?
Speaker 5 (21:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I never send food back, And the problem is I
never send foodbacks. I never want to be seen as
really difficult. But if I was with someone who did,
that would be great because I would sit there going,
this is shit. But I don't want to tell them.
You tell them, you tell them.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
There was something I saw on Instagram last night that
I went to tag Holly in and then I went,
maybe she'll get offended. It said myself and my partner
reject traditional gender roles. I don't clean and he doesn't
fix broken things, and our house is dirty and broken.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And I was like, this is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Bread.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So this is what we're trying to plant here.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Here's one that I really struggle with and has caused
friction in my relationship. And I didn't know before. We
took me a while to learn it. When you go
to the beach, do you like to sit and lie
and soak it up and have hours at the beach
or your quick dip and get back in the car.
Because I have married a dip back in the car
and that's not relaxing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, because we're from the outer suburbs, so we had
beach days. So we've only acknowledged the beach in the
sense of a whole day.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
It's a tree.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Every time I go to the beach. It's a total trait.
How about you.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
My big one is if I am dating someone, I
need to find out what type of holiday family they're from,
Like are they a hiking family or a hotel family,
the two different types. I'm a hotel family. Yeah, when
my family goes on holidays, surprise, we stay in hotels,
we eat at restaurants, we go back to the hotel.
I can't date someone who goes hike and then sight
(23:05):
see and then hike again, and then we'll into the
next sight seeing place and then eating sandwiches while we're
walking to the next hiking place. That is absolutely not
Absolutely my theory.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Is okay, So holiday styles.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
I wonder, speaking of holiday styles, having someone who's the
travel agent of the relationship, right and they go we're
going here, we're going here, hiker blah blah blah blah,
like they organize it. I think that sometimes a good
mix is having one of those and the other's just
a passenger. And they're happy to just show up and
they get sent the itinerary.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Did they look at it?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Not?
Speaker 4 (23:39):
And they're not allowed to have opinions. But the other
person is like the book or the blah, the blah,
like I think that they're a lot that's fair fair
where if you sat and on paper it might not
look compatible, but it actually really.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Works for you.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Are you a que jumper? This is another one, right,
So imagine you turn up to a concert, flight queue
a restaurant and there's a line and you could cut in,
like not rudely, like elbow a child out of the way,
but like just hover around a certain space, and then
just you're running.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Late that flight and you go, hey, excuse me my flights?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Can I come to the front?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Can I go to the front?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you do that or not? Are you a cue
jumper or not?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
I'd be more to be in the presence of a
que jumper, mortifying.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I've tried to do some que jumping when we went
to Oasis recently and a I got yelled at by strangers,
which was and b Brent nearly divorced me on the spot,
not that we're married, but I was like we're not
exactly jumping the queue. We're just standing here and the
queue will just envelop us and move forward. And he
was like, no, it won't.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I hate that. I can't even do the whole thing
where if you see friends ahead of you and they
wave to you, I can't even go to them.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
I'm always I'm like, I'm back here.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I'll catch up with you when I get in.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
So in some situations, people please, and in some situations not.
Do you bringe your TV shows or do you parcel
them out like treats? This is another important one. Sometimes
you're there and you're watching TV and you're like another
one and they're like no, no, no, no, we're done.
We'll wait there.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh you know what, the relationships done? We're watching every
single episode of this show. Will you talk about this
all on the first date.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
The idea is little lifestyle things that actually matter more
maybe than going like big picture values. And I think
it's true these are the things that couples fight about.
What time to get to the airport. Bren always thinks
that I've packed too much, like when we're packing the
car to go away. Always whenever you go to on
a shopping trip, not that shopping trip, but like, you know,
(25:36):
I want to go to the shops. He acts like
he's being attacked by a bear in a shop. He
has to get out of there as quickly as possible,
Like you just want to go. I just want to
look at that, and it's like raw. This is the
stuff people fight about, and it also tells you a
lot about their personality.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, I reckon. There's a little checklist that you should
probably go through.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Just it's just getting harder and harder.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It's going to make it easier because then you think,
if I want someone to do this for me, like
get us to the front of the queue, I need
to find a guy who doesn't mind elbowing children out
of the way.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
We're forming a very specific guy at this time. I
don't think that exists.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
After the break our best recommendations, including a very out
loud gift guide from Holly and a very very helpful
recommendation from m.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma MIAs subscribers. Follow the link
in the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
It is Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendations. Holly.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
So I've got a very specific and slightly self serving
recommendation because I'm recommending our gift guide of recommendations, oh,
which is in the newsletter tomorrow. In exception, if you
are a subscriber to the Holy out Loud newsletter tomorrow
in your inbox, you're going to get the out Loud
Gift Guide. And that's literally what it's called a very
(27:12):
out Loud gift Guide. It's got gifts in it for
everybody in your life. So it's got gifts for the
m in your life. You've given me those ideas for
the Jesse in your life. She's given me those ideas
for the Miror in your life. She's given me what
hers are. You can imagine, can't you. And then also
a general excellence category, which is just really good gifts
for people. Some of them are buy out louders, some
(27:35):
of them are things out louders have recommended to us.
Loads of books, like loads of books. So you're going
to get that in your inbox if you subscribe to
the Holy Outloud newsletter. There is a link in the
show notes to do so, of course it's free. I'm
going to give you one tip of one of the
things that's in there. Actually I'm wearing the wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Shirt for this.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I've got this, but I just bought it for a
friend of mine. So this is a paperclip necklace from
a brand called Francesca.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
I think you've got one around my rear bracelet.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
They're engraved and.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
It's engraved and it has Luna's birthday.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
So they are a paper clip necklace and that you
can get a gold one, a silver one, a rose
gold one, and so they're cool. But also mine has
got the kids' names and mine and Brent's names on it.
But it's really subtle, so it's like you can't quite
see it. Yeah, I like that about it.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, it's called.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
The etched necklace from Francesca, and I have just bought
one for a friend. I reckon it's a great gift
for somebody. They're a business from Hobart, so we've got
lots of ideas like that. Also, we've got the best
beauty stuff. Of course, I've got some gardening thing, so
Lincoln show notes for the Out Loud Gift Guide. That
is my reco for this week.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
My recommendation is a book, and I've nearly finished one of.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
The buzziest books of the year.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
It's been called the best debut fiction book in forever.
It is called The Names by Florence Napp. Have you
read it yet?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I haven't read it yet. I've heard so much about
it to read it, although I've heard it's dark in
the mood.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Yeah, so i'd heard about it, but I had no
idea of the premise, just that everyone who read it
said it's brilliant, You've got to read it. And then
I started it and Luca kept saying, are you okay?
And I would just be sobbing in bed, like you
know how a little life or there are certain books
that catch you at a time in your life where
it's like you've got to be in the headspace. It'll
(29:20):
make you cry. It's really it's heavy. It's an emotional journey,
but it is so original. The premise is basically it
begins with a mother who is about to register the
birth of her son and she's faced with this dilemma
because in her husband's family, you name the son after
the father, and her husband, as it turns out, is
(29:43):
not a good man.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
He's a bad bad man.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
And so she's deciding whether to give him that name,
give him a name she wants, or give him the
name that her daughter wants for this little baby. And
it follows the trajectory of the three lives. So what
would happen if she chose this name, this name or
this name?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And it is just so.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Clever and twist d I mean, ultimately it's hopeful, but
it's about three versions of the same life.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I love.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It's really really good.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What a crazy idea?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, I don't read that in the holidays.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
So my recommendation today F one. No, it's not my
real recommendation. It's just like a PSA. The last F
one race is going to be at twelve am on Monday,
so we'll it's decent time for all of us. Abidabi
the Orlando wins.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Jess is in a great mood.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Out loud as you may have missed last Fridays but
and went on like a twenty minute rant about front
No a lot of out louders.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Were very on board, which I was so excited and.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Some and then some of them were not. And then
some of them got upset because I made a throwaway
comment that I didn't think it was a sport. I
take that back. I was being facetious. Of course it's
a sport. You just don't use, you know, your athleticism
to do it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Have you seen this.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
And the head and the neck? And they okay?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
So remember last week I said could be anyone's championship.
It's still could be anyone's championship. Because in the last
race at Qatar, I said, guitar last time, sorry Qatar.
Max came first, Oscar came second, and Orlando came forth.
McLaren really really stuffed up the team strategy. I think
(31:30):
they were trying too hard to make it look like
they weren't choosing favorites, and then they just said, actually,
we hate them both. I don't want them to go Max.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Some of the other commentary I saw was upset with you,
Jesse for not backing the Aussie. Would you like to
retract your support for Lando?
Speaker 4 (31:45):
And I'm pregnant and I find Lando very sexy on
my eyes.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Leave Jesse alone.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
But some people say, they said, look, I googled Lando,
never heard of him. I think he looks a bit
like Luca Local was stoked by it.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
I just he's very handsome.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Micro compatibility. Do they have to like F one anyway?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yes, they do. Okay, So now this race, this last
last race, if Lando Norris gets spots one, two or three,
He's definitely going to be championship. For Max to win
the championship, he has to come first and Lando has
to come fourth. All later. Oh, I'm so excited. That's it.
That's it. Okay, okay. So my next recommendation, my actual one,
(32:27):
is this barmb I bought it here today. It's an
anti chaf bomb by the brand Scoop. I walk to work.
Everyone knows that I chase like a mom my thighs
rubbed together, they read.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I know it can get so sorry, it's so bad.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And then I have to walk with my legs like
far apart, like an elephant, like I'm stomping around the place.
So this anti chaf barm I've used a lot in
the past. This one's probably my favorite because it goes
on and you can't feel the product on your legs.
It doesn't feel sticky the longest time I used vaciline,
which I mean, great all purpose product, but you still
feel like the slimy and if it's hot, yeah, and
(33:06):
that doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like that.
It goes on and it just kind of feels like
a little like cream and it goes balmy and then
you stop feeling it and your legs just slide.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
It is so do you get it from them?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Get out of Door Beauty. It's around twenty five bucks.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Of course. Good.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
It's such a good idea.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Great recco friends. That is all we have Loud allowed,
that is all we have time for today. Remember, of
course you can watch us on YouTube. You would have
just seen them do a very good yay. Yeah like here.
It is representation of shaping Spotify. Wrapt is out. It's
a big day. It takes over the culture for twenty
four hours. Yeah, and we need to thank all the
(33:45):
out louders who said that we were their favorite show.
Well didn't say it was evidenced in their phone.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
They are favorite people. And look, we don't take it
for granted. We are so honored.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Thank you so much for everyone who tagged us and
let us know when everyone who listened and laughed and
argued along with us and engaged. It is the greatest
privilege being a part of your day. And we are
cooking up some more fun, lots of surprises.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Big things for twenty twenty six. If we were on
your Spotify wrap list, of course, we'd love it if
you shared it told everyone else, because what better badge
of honor than to tell everyone you're a out louder.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Exactly right, Jesse, Oh, tell them about the book club.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Yeah. So last week we dropped the first episode of
our summer book Club series in partnership with Royal Caribbean.
It was about Miranda July's All Fours. We got such
great feedback, a lot of people who hadn't even read
the book but.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Just waited the book.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
I hated the book, and we're very interested to hear
our candid commentary. The second book coming up is Great, Big,
Beautiful Life by Emily Henry. Holly and I have never
read an Emily Henry book.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I read two Emily Henry's books, I read Funny Story
and Happy Place. I love romantic tropes. However, I heard
this book is a bit different to her usual books.
It's less trophy. Okay, we're still romance.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
But so that's going to be our next Summer Book
Club EP. It is dropping on the twenty eighth of December,
so if you want to be a part of it,
make sure you start reading and meet us there. Thank
you to our team for helping us put this show together.
Group executive producer Ruth Devine, Executive producer Sashatanic.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer
is Josh Green, and our junior content producer is Tessa Kodovic.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
We'll see you on Monday. Bye bye bye, Mama. Mia
acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've
recorded this podcast.
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