Victoria Beckham’s Version & Jessie’s Very Big News

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hello and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Friday, the twenty sixth
of September. My name is hollyween Wright.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I am Jesse Stevens and I'm em Vernon.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
And here's what's made our agenda for today. Forget high Jewelry,
unlimited edition La boo boos, the status Simple We're all
Chasing is our very own Netflix documentary from Charlie Sheen
to Bonnie Blue to Victoria Beckham. Everybody gets on now
and we unpack why.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Plus what do you do at night?

Speaker 4 (00:54):
It's a question in the out Louders Facebook group we
cannot stop thinking about.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
And some trashy things to watch and some smart things
to read.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
It is our weekly raggers.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
And some news to end today's show. If you think
you've guessed it, I bet you haven't.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
But first, in case you missed it, there are two
fashion trends that I'm making a comeback, and I have
to let both of you know so you don't get
left behind.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
You know you know we're not across it.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
So the first one I want to talk about is eyeshadow.
Have you noticed eyeshadow went missing for a few years.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Jesse was upset about it.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
I was really upset. So I have so do um.
We have real estate. We have real estate.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
A lot of eyelids have a lot of eye, and
some of us eyelids have been retreating to the back
of our head for a while, like a shy toddler
at a party.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
I always think I just look a bit weird, a
little bit. Some might say googly if I don't have
eyeshadow on. So I mastered the art of it when
I was, you know, fifteen, and on YouTube you're very good,
and then the world decides that it's no longer in.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's that kind of part of that clean girl thing. Yeah,
it was a cranirl no makeup, no makeup.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Even though when I was doing the makeup no makeup trend,
I realized there was way more effort than doing a
full blamb look like, to look like you're not wearing
makeup is quite hard.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
I just look on well and a slip back bunn
has never ever suited me. So are you telling me
the eye shadow.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
So I shadow went away for a few years, and
that's mainly because runways weren't doing models with a lot
of makeup. They were doing no eye shadow. But this
year it's been reported that New York Fashion Week all
the models are wearing eyeshadow again, which means that we're
gonna start wearing eyeshadow again, which is great for my pigmentation.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I'm so excited. I need my eye shadow.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
I have so many eye shadow palettes that have been
sitting there neglected.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
And they're still good. Like I've been using my eyeshadow
palette from like twenty thirteen.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, they never go off, so.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
True and doctors income I know me as I'm recovering
from a star right now, I need like, you know,
Kim Kardashian must have designed this like a thing to
hold my eyelids up. I'm sure there are because as
you get older and your eyes get more hooded, and
some people always have hooded eyes. And of course, but like,
there are lots of makeup tutorials about how to put

(03:01):
eyeshadow when you basically eyelids have retreated, but they all
basically involve this, so it's like you need.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
There is tape though, so like some people on the side, yeah, don't.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
She wears it all the time, and she.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Wears it like out in about where's You're meant to
wear it while you do your makeup and then you're
meant to like blend it in and hide it.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh wow, I kind.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Of love that. See.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
I reckonhooded eyes though.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
You only need a tiny little bit to make a
real impact, Like you can put a little bit of
color on your eyelids and you just look stunning.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
It's quite a sixties look. It's quite euphorios. Not the age.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Got it taking notes Roger that what else?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Okay, so there is another trend that's making a comeback
and I feel like, oh, you're going.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
To be very excited about this. I'm across this.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
So this was outlined by TikToker named the Balders Bitch,
great name and this is what they said.

Speaker 5 (03:53):
Girl, I need you to be getting on this. Britis
Boe just posted pictures from a dinner they did for
London Fashion Week and ladies get ready. Jean's in a
nice top jeans and a nice top at back and
not just that, No, it's jeez, it's a nice top
and it's a pointy heel. Ah, the golden age of
British fashion is back. You can be casual from the

(04:13):
bum down and the tits can still be glitter ring.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
I'm so happy for you.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
I know the world's going to hell and a handbasket,
but at least we've got jeans in a nice top.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Some of us never let this guy. I'll just say
my dms blew up with this video. It tells me
a lot about my perceived sphere of influence that I
get loads of dms on Instagram when David Beckham does
anything anything take is in his garden, lots and lots
and lots, a little bit of brad pit, but jeans

(04:45):
in a nice top.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Action Just but Holly, I've said this before, I'll say
it again. What top, because I just feel like I
don't know what top? And some of these tops, I
would argue in this TikTok video not a nice.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Talk, Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
A nice top is classified as something that's a tiny
bit uncomfortable and you have to be slightly concerned that
you might display in their ball during the night.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
In the going out top. You've got to have a
going out top, right, It's like a silk it might
be sleeveless if you can do that kind of thing.
It might be strapless. If you can do that kind
of thing, it might be plungy, it might have sparkles,
it might have it's a draw the eye thing because
then you can wear the same jeans that you would
wear just with a T shirt. The pointy pump is
very exciting development because this is something we were doing

(05:28):
a lot when I was younger.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
You have pointy pup.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
I have a lot of points of pumps, and again
I haven't really let them go, which just goes to
show if you just hold on to the things you
like and you're just patient and you just lie there,
it will come back around and you will be cool
again before you know I missed it.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I went clubbing recently and I felt so out of
place with my outfit.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
People wearing jeans and the nice people.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Were wearing jeans, like the younger girls were wearing jean Firstly,
I was the oldest one there.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Baggy jeans, skinny jeans. What kind of jeans are with
baggy jeans? Baggy baggy jeans?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
And the top was either a white or black top,
like it wasn't a colorful.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
It's quite nineties that long.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
I'm all the tops, tiny teeny tiny tops, baggy jeans
and like a white sneaker.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
And what were you wearing?

Speaker 3 (06:12):
It's embarrassing. I was wearing a little.

Speaker 6 (06:13):
Black dress, arrogable little dress usually whatever, a little black
dress with like some strappy platinum sandals and a loose
denim jacket.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
I think that I looked geriatric. It was bad. I
love it when the young people are wrong. It's just fun.
People thought I was that miserable cow that never smiled
that I do. Don't be shocked.

Speaker 7 (06:46):
How do I present this with any class?

Speaker 5 (06:53):
I think we're past that.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
We're past that.

Speaker 7 (06:55):
Yeah, when you got a lot of shame about a
lot of stuff, shame, shame is suffocating. I lit the fuse,
you know, and my life turns into everything it's it
wasn't supposed to be.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
You just listened to snippets from the Victoria Beckham documentary
trailer and the Charlie Sheen documentary trailer. Holly, are you
aware that there's a new documentary coming to Netflix.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
I have all the alarms.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
About our good friend VICKI about.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Vicky Beckham, who I just want it on the record.
I've never met Victoria Beckham, which is one of the
saddest things about my life. But I know people who
have met Victoria Beckham, and every single person I know
who has ever met Victoria Beckham says she is a
complete vibe. She's fine, funny, apparently very funny, very self
deprecating and funny. Well is that a surprise? Well, the

(07:43):
reason why it's a surprise is, as she referenced in
that trailer, because she never used to smile. She was
posh bys and she never used to smile because she
hated her teeth and blah blah, blah blah. People think,
as she said, I'm a miserable cow. You don't think
I'm a miserable cow. And she's not a miserable cow,
as it turns out, as we're all about to find out.
But why, Jesse, why are we about to find out?

Speaker 1 (08:03):
All right?

Speaker 4 (08:04):
So, the celebrity documentary you may have noticed, is the
new celebrity memoir. It's marketed as something that is far
more objective and rigorous and prestige.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Which is what documentaries are meant to be.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
That's exactly what documentaries are meant to be.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
So, but there's a trick.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
There's a trick.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Last week we spoke about aka Charlie Sheen. Have you
watched that yet?

Speaker 3 (08:26):
I've watched it. I loved it. But it was very
clearly made by Charlie she Yes.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
So it's a three part series on the actor who
has a long and complicated history with drag and alcohol abuse,
not to mention the women and children who bought the
brunt of it.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
And he spoke about that as little or of as
much as he wanted.

Speaker 4 (08:45):
It skirted over the parts that he didn't want to
delve into. So did he assault his ex wife?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Did he want to talk too much about what happened
with Denise Richards? Eh?

Speaker 4 (08:54):
But instead he delivered us the revelations he felt comfortable with.
So one of the headlines was that he has engaged
in sex with other men. He is now sober, his
son lives with him, he's on good terms with those
ex'es and that's all that matters.

Speaker 7 (09:08):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
And crucially the thing is is that one of the
tricks of these kind of docos as we're going to
get into, which is that they look on the surface
because they're not entirely glowing like you know, you still
found out about all Charlie Sheen's addiction to sex workers
and the copious amounts of drugs he was taking, and
the fact that he was a terrible father at lots
of points, like that's all covered. It's not like the
whole thing was like, no, you've got it all wrong.

(09:30):
Charlie Sheen had never touched crack, Like it wasn't that.
But crucially, everybody involved has Charlie's blessing to be involved, right,
so you're kind of going to get a particular picture.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
It's not going to be a hit piss.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
So you've got these docos. If they are endorsed by
the stars, as I know you're going to get to,
they have to walk a line of appearing even handed
while they're kind of not so.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Watching the documentary, did it change your opinion on Charlie Sheen.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Oh no, not in any way. Like but I don't
really have an opinion on Charlie Sheen other than what
a mess? And I walked away from that going what
a mess? I mean, like a study an addiction. It's
really interesting. Yeah, I mean I enjoyed it. I thought
it was interesting. But the term that's interesting here is
documentary in lots of.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
Ways exactly, And the question is whether we maybe need
to redefine what a documentary is.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
And I want to kind of work through.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
Whether this is really just a pr exercise, right because
last weekend I came across another documentary about Bonnie Blue
on Stan Has anyone seen that yet?

Speaker 3 (10:35):
I'm really conflicted about it. I want to watch it,
but I also don't want to watch it all right,
I think it'll make me mad. I've read a lot
about it, but that's her documentary. The key thing about
this is that so the Beckham's documentaries were produced by
David Beckham's one of the producers of the Beckham documentary.
It was so successful, completely changed his profile in America,

(10:56):
which is really crucial to Bran Beckham. Anyway, I know
you'll be getting to all that, but Bonnie Blues documentary
is also Bonnie Blues.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
Document Well, yes, and she did it with Channel four
and Bonnie Blue was one of the highest paid stars
on Only Fans until she was kicked off and talk
about that for ten years. But I want to just
start with this overarching celebrity documentary.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Do we have to adjust how we watch them?

Speaker 4 (11:17):
If you're Matthew Perry five years ago and he's got
his memoir that comes out. Would you just do a
three part series? Is it a way for you to
have the last word?

Speaker 3 (11:28):
So what happened is to documentaries, right, is the documentaries
have always obviously been a very prestigious but not very
profitable channel of filmmaking. Very few documentaries made lots of
money filled cinemas and a thing like that. Streaming has
obviously completely changed the game in documentary world. It's one
of the things that streamers really love. Documentaries are quite

(11:49):
cheap to make in comparison to any kind of drama
where you need to pay script writers and create sets
and pay active.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Well, often the subject isn't paid yep.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
So documentaries are very popular for that reason. But apparently
the thing that really changed the game was that one
about basketball, The Last Dance. Ye remember that great? Yeah? Now,
Michael Jordan was in on that because he and a
lot of the footage and everything. So for them to
be able to tell the story that they wanted to
tell about basketball and that era, they needed him, and

(12:16):
so he came to the party. And that was so
successful and so prestigious and did so well that it
kind of pushed this new celebrity endorsed documentary into the forefront.
And since then, of course, we've had Meghan and Harry
famously three part doco on Netflix. We've had Taylor Swift
Smiss Americana sort of in the same vein. Selena Gomez

(12:37):
has done one, Pame Anderson has done one, Jalo has
done one. We could get to that. Colleen Rooney has
done one, Robbie Williams has done one. You know, and
as we've just been discussing Beckham, which was huge, the
most important pieces. You need to make sure that your
doco seems legit. You need a prestigious director. So David
Beckham's Beckham documentary was made by Fishers Stevens. He is

(13:00):
an actor well known for Succession, but he's also made
some very credible documentaries. He's made documentaries about climate change,
He's done all kinds of documentaries. They got him to
make that. It brings lots of credibility. You know, it's
going to be well made, production values are going to
be high, and he says, I want to be clear,
I'm not pretending to be a journalist, Like if a
journalist was doing this, it would be different. I've got

(13:20):
a connection to the subject and i want to tell
the story, and I've got a certain amount of creative freedom.
But because David Beckham's production company was creating it, obviously
Beckham gets input. Victoria Beckham's documentary, which is also being
co produced by the Beckhams, is directed by the woman
who directed the Michelle Obama documentary Becoming. So we're talking

(13:41):
like high level. You've got to have that kind of
pedigree to pull this off well. And the Charlie Sheen
doco is very high production values. They've got access to
an unbelievable archive of film footage, so they can use
all these childhood things and a clip from every movie,
which if you were just an on the fly, not
very well funded filmmaker, you could never make. You could

(14:02):
never make that DOCA. So crucially, you've got to have
a veneer of credibility and status, and you've got to
sidle up to all the salacious things people want to
talk about. So David Beckham's documentary, I think we talked
about this on the show earlier this week actually, but
it could have completely avoided the conversation about the infidelity.
It didn't, but it didn't exactly go in right. I'm

(14:24):
sure Victoria Beckham's documentary is going to skirt up to
some of the stuff people really want to know about her,
which would be body image, how she handed the infidelity,
and of course now what's going on with her and
Brooklyn and her kids. I'm sure it will skirt up
to those things. But if an independent journalist was making
a documentary about Victoria Beckham without access, you wouldn't get

(14:45):
all the access, but you'd probably get more dirt.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
And she's also the executive producer, which means that she
gets to decide that that scene doesn't make it. If
you're an EP, you get to decide what stays on
the cunning est.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
To be fair to the documentary makers, the Fisher stevens
Is of the world, they're not going to let that
be entirely dictated. But it's going to be a difficult dance.
So it's kind of like when Prince Harry wrote wah Spare,
which is a brilliant book, his memoir that was written
by a very prestigious ghostwriter called J. R. Mohringer, who
wrote like Andre Agassiz Open, which is widely seen as

(15:17):
one of the best celebrity memoirs ever, and he spoke
really openly about this delicate dance you have to do
where you are trying to present an unvarnished version of somebody,
but you're doing it with them. So I don't think
Fishers Stevens is like, literally, you tell me what to say, David,
and I'll say it. I think it's a more complicated
creative relationship than that. But it's not going to be

(15:38):
a pushback, deeply investigative piece.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
But then should it be, Yes, it should be, because
I just feel like with a celebrity memoir, like you know,
the celebrities writing the book about themselves, so I'm opting
in knowing kind of what I'm going to get, like
it's them telling their story. When I hear the word documentary,
I'm expecting an objective piece of research. And then when
I see the celebrity's name was an executive producer, was

(16:04):
a creator, was a co founder, I feel like I've
been portrayed. I feel like I've been tricked into watching
some thing thinking it's going to be objective when it
clearly isn't. And I found that with the Becken documentary
because all I wanted to know was the cheating scandal,
and I didn't get any of that. Even missus Americano
Taylor Swift, all I wanted to know was about her
ex boyfriends.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
I didn't get any of that.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
It's just like I just got a piece of content
that made the celebrity look really, really good.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
I don't agree with that, like entirely. I think that
every piece of creative work has a point of view.
Every documentary that is made is coming from a point
of view, right, so even if it's about a crime
or a political scandal or whatever, that you have to
make a decision as a journalist, as a creator, as
a writer, as whatever, like what am I including what
am I not? And very often we'll see this all
the time. A true crime documentary will come out, you'll

(16:49):
watch it or you'll go, oh, we totally did it,
and then you'll see another side of the story and
you're like, oh, maybe he didn't do it. Like you
have to pick a point of view. I agree with you,
this is sanitized to a point. But the reason I
still love these docos is I still think you learn
a lot about the person. Like I still you might
not get to dig into the worst moment of their
life and why should you really like But I think

(17:11):
that just watching David Beckham move around his home, his kids,
his workplace, talking to people who've known him since he
was a kid, you learn a great deal about him all.
But is it a documentary or just reality TV?

Speaker 4 (17:25):
Well that's the question, right, yeah, because that's the thing
right as you were saying there's a difference between autobiography
and biography. There's a difference with memoir, and that's printed
on the front. If I'm reading an autobiography, I understand
that this is how you narrativize your life. But documentary,
as we've come to understand it is you know, you're
thinking about the David Adamborough who watches The Lion for

(17:48):
days on end and presents what happens. But this is
as though he sat down and negotiated with the Lion
and the line and said cut the bit where I
ate the carcass.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, like it.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Doesn't make me look great. I've got too much blood
on my Can I redo that? Yes?

Speaker 4 (18:02):
And it's like, on the one hand, the best documentaries
like Blackfish is one of my best favorite documentaries, and
it's about an orc and it's about the experience in
captivity and all that kind of stuff, and the aim there.
A prestigious documentary maker would say they are trying to
find truth or a truth. Right. What I'm finding a

(18:23):
bit troubling about these documentaries is that you just have
to follow the money, because every documentary now is about
selling something. So even just watching the trailer for Victoria Beckham,
this is about her fashion line, this is about putting
that back in the public consciousness.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Well, what it's actually about, I think, is watching what
happened to the Beckham docker to David Beckham in America
Because the Beckham's in Britain, for example, a royalty, and
obviously she's got some spy skuilll cred. But that's a
long time ago. It changed Beckham's game in America where
he wants to operate his business. For Victoria Beckham is
probably less about selling clothes. It is about selling beauty

(18:59):
and skincare, because she has a brand that is not
like it's too expensive for ordinary people, but it's not
so high end that it's out of reach of everybody.
And there is middle market in America there that would
be so lucrative for her. If she could get everybody
there wanting a Victoria Beckham serum, a Victoria Beckham eyeshadow stick.
You're a one hundred percent right. This is about breaking

(19:20):
open that market. Yeah, but you have to give to get.
So she has to give us some insight. It's not
gonna be like the Kardashians, where it's like ten minutes
of trailer and then maybe she cries and that's that.
It's still going to be a quality pros.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
It's going to give us something. But even the Charlie
Sheen documentary, I didn't realize this because I was like, what's.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
That man trying to sell?

Speaker 4 (19:36):
Like, what is He's not in a new movie. He's
from what I can work out, he was not paid,
he was not a producer. And then what I discovered
was that the day after the documentary came out, he
released a book which has become subsequently a New York
Times bestseller. So I think because he had disappeared for
a little while, he needed this reemergence to kind of

(19:57):
be this big publicity campaign to put Charlie Sheen back
in the spotlight. Buy my book, come to my book tour,
Bye bye bye. There's money there for him somehow, But
if you are going to invest in doing a document
it's like what's in it for you?

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I suppose, like, what are you going to sell?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
That's why I was confused with the Bonnie Blue documentary
because from what I seen and heard, it's mainly women
watching the documentary. And I knowed deep down that those
men who were standing in line to have sex with
her do not care about a documentary about Bonny Blue.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
Okay, so I have the answer for you because I
wanted this too, And halfway through that documentary, I went,
she is going to make so much money off this,
and the reason why is because her strategy is.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
Piss off the wives.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
Piss off the wives so much that the wives go
home and bitch to their husbands, and if they bitch
to their husbands, their husbands google Bonnie Blue and subscribe.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
And so her model is like fame.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
The model is a tag.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's just fame.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
And so she posts up to two hundred videos across
social media every day. Those accounts are getting shut down
all the time. Only fans remember the petting zoo thing
that she was going to do, where she was going
to be in a glass box and let men do
whatever they want to her and stream it on only
fans only. Fans went too far, You're off our platform, ye.
Now her relationship with platforms is interesting because she does

(21:22):
need the platform as much as they sort of need her.
So she moves to a different platform, which is named
in the documentary, it actually shows it's a Channel four documentary,
which is quite.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
A like relatively prestigious in mainstream the UK.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
And yes there's a documentary maker who we never see,
but we hear her voice and she says.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
It's a female documentary maker.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
I'm worried about my daughter, my fifteen year old daughter,
seeing this stuff like Bonnie Blue doesn't care about the
moral judgment. What's happened is every time you go onto
Channel four or STAN, which is where it's streaming in Australia,
you see Bonnie Blue's face. That name goes everywhere, and
she's making millions of dollars a month as people just

(22:02):
look her up. And even in that doco you see
her naked body, you see snippets of some of those videos.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
You understand what content she gives you.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
It was a genius move by Bonnie Blue to agree
to make this documentary.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Well, the interesting thing about her and other creators of
her ilk is that you have to exist on a
few different planes. So if you follow some of those
women on Instagram, you wouldn't actually have any idea of
what they do, Like it'll be there, get ready with me,
Come get coffee with me before I go to my shoe,
you know, like it could be any influencer, it could
be a health influencer. To get to the understanding of

(22:37):
what they're actually doing and selling, you have to go
to a place that a lot of the women who
are looking at that stuff aren't going to go to,
you know. But it's about fame and attention. The thing
that's interesting that you raise is whether or not these
docos are docos and whether or not that matters. That's
an interesting point, right because really prestigious documentary makers, like
this very famous guy called Ken Burns, he said, no,

(22:59):
they're not. He's like, if they're influencing the very fact
of getting these made, it means certain aspects that you
don't necessarily want in aren't going to be in their period.
And that's not the way you do journalism, and it's
not the way you do history. That is true. But
so what like, I don't think that anyone is suggesting
that Beckham compares to blackfish. They're saying there should be
a new term for it because it's not reality TV.

(23:20):
It's not necessarily documentary making. I think it's just they
say it's called nonfiction entertainment and that's what it should
be called, right. But the thing is is there's something
a bit pearl clutchy. I think about people going, well,
it's not really a documentary when it actually is letting
documentary makers make lots of money because Fisher Stephen says
he learned about the power of celebrity when he made

(23:40):
a climate change docer and it was his third one,
and Leonardo DiCaprio appeared in it, not for the whole thing,
but he was and that was the one, of course,
that got the streaming deal, that got the distribution, because
the power of celebrity gets your message out there. And
he says that since Beckham, his phone just rings constantly
with celebrity saying we make one of those about me,
or you make one of those about me. It's not
necessarily a puff piece. It's somewhere in between. And when

(24:04):
you think about it, in an age where celebrities and
powerful people completely own their message. Look at Taylor Swifts
going on Boyfriend's podcast right to launch her album. Celebrities
have learned and are used to owning their message through
social media. Why would they subject themselves? I mean our
wonderful co host, Amelia Lestra. I remember she said, I'm
not going to listen to that Travis Kelsey interview with
Taylor Swift because I don't like interviews not done by journalists.

(24:27):
And that's a really interesting line, because I'd almost forgotten
most of the people doing the long form celebrity interviews
that we're listening to now. Of course they're not journalists.
That's not what this is. It's something different, and it
does feel a little bit like not I don't mean
this about Amelia, but like in being a bit too
oh well, these aren't really documentaries. If I still get

(24:49):
a glimpse into somebody powerful and far removed from me's life,
I'm still getting something from it. Like I got a
lot from that Beckham documentary. I loved it. I've watched
it twice. I would watch it again. And it doesn't
mean I'm it was gritty and real. It's just like
I learned a lot about Beckham.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
I just wonder if, in a world where we all
have our own platform, if any time we make something with.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
A distributor it is an ad like and it is.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
It is.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Even Taylor on Travis's podcast, It's like that was not
for her album, which is totally fine, but.

Speaker 3 (25:22):
Because why would you reveal yourself otherwise these days?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
If you're not getting out of it.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Out Louders in a moment, what the hell do you
do at night? Do you have a routine? We need
to discuss it sometimes, I would suggestingly all the time.
The Outlouders are just iconic, right the people who listen
to this show, and never more so, I think than
when one of our wonderful out Louders, Renee Patricia, jumped

(25:49):
into the out Louders group when I was sick, I
think the week before last maybe asked this question, what
do people do at night? I was like, Yes, what
the hell do people do at night? She went on
to say, I'm sick of mindless Netflix and scrolling on
my phone. My husband and I are in the same
room but aren't really interacting. What's the alternative chess puzzles?

(26:11):
What does everyone else do? Q? Hundreds and hundreds of answers.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
What do people do?

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Okay, here's a few examples, and then we've got to
get to why this is such a very interesting question
because obviously this is hitting a lot of people because
they are all especially if they're in couples or they're
in families. They're like, we just sit and watch TV
and we we should be doing something else or not.
We don't sit and watch TV, but we all do
something different. We're not connecting. That's what people panic about, right.

(26:38):
So Helen says that her husband has gone holdheartedly into
buying vinyl albums. That is what you call a classic
midlife hobby. I believe that in midlife we all get
assigned a hobby. We don't necessarily choose it. It just comes.
For me. It was gardening, as many out loud as know.
So some others it may be bike riding, triathlons. Oh,
sour dough. I know a lot of dads on bike. Yeah.

(26:58):
Obviously Helen's husband, he's been assigned vinyl. Oh that's good
because then he didn't have to like recale. He would
have had the collection. It's true, so she says, when
he puts an album on instead of wondering off to
watch TV or do my own thing and making an
effort to potter around him and stay in the space
with him.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Oh bless.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Quite a few people are playing board games. We played chess,
We played banana grams or scrabble with a wine, says Alex.
Claire says. We play wordle, Connections strands, the mini crosswords.
Brent and I did that. We do wordle every night
before we get a bed. Some people are buying magazines.
People are getting quite retro. Some people are going to
salsa classes. Someone's going twilight sailing. That sounds fancy. Ali says.

(27:34):
Our nights are filled with technology, but we try to
do it together. We'll watch the same show together, or
decide we're going to have a mindless scroll sesh. Apparently
you're allowed to have a mindless scroll sessh if.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
This is great pr for relationships, right, we're like, oh please,
let's be at it.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
And some people do things like the thirty six questions
that lead to level you know, those that we take
turns making cocktails mocktails. Now I need to know this
was quite a couple specific, because that was what the
question was about, was kind of like what do we
do now? It's basically the question, but I think it's
broader for everybody different phases in their life, like what
do we do at night? And vernon, what do you

(28:14):
do at night?

Speaker 2 (28:15):
I've fallen down this big TikTok rabbit hole of this
trend that's called my five to nine after my nine
to five, And I've seen basically these girls post and
it's usually a girl who works in a corporate job.
She usually logs off at like six thirty or seven,
and then she just gets so much stuff done, like
like what like what? So she has to take the

(28:36):
train home, and then she gets home, she feeds the dog,
and then she's out again. She's going to go to
the gym. She's back home, she plays with the dog.
She's out again, she's meeting friends for drinks. She's back home,
she's watching TV, she's doing her nighttime routine.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
I'm like, I do not understand how she does that.
When I was in my more in my going out years,
which obviously I'm not these days because I live in
the middle of nowhere and I have other things to do,
but I used to hate going home and then going
out again. Yeah, for me, it was like, am either
out or I'm home, but that's very impressive. Going home
to feed the dog and go to the gym and
then go back then go out again. That's impressive.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
So what would most of your nights look like like?
You finish up at work, finish up at ordinary night.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Look like I'll usually have a work event after work
which will end around nine pm.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
How many of those do you like to have a week?
Because I know you don't necessarily get to choose, but
you don't have to accept every invitation because some much
louders might not know this, but obviously Emily Venham is
also on the spill and she gets invited to a
lot of movies and TV launches.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Beauty launches, beauty events. Back in my heyday, I feel
like when I a few years ago, I would go
to three to four a week. Now it's probably one
to two a week, and that's like an easy week.
But then my other days will be filled with going
out to drinks with friends or catching up with someone,
going to the movies, going to eat. But I inhaled

(29:55):
this thread in the out loudest because I actually don't
do anything when I have nothing on after work, and
I struggle to find something to do.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
And what does that look like? What does not doing
anything look like?

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Literally going home, getting uber eat, it's going to bed.
That's literally a night for me. And there's a lot
of people in the thread that they were saying, I
watch TV or I do this, and I feel like
it's better when you have someone with you because you
can't feel as guilty. Whenever I go home and I
just watch a TV show by myself, I feel really depressed.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Dude, Yeah, I get really sad.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
Another person holds you to account to the activity you're
committed to. So if I'm at home and Luke's not
at home, then I put the show on and I'm
also scrolling my phone and I'm distracted, and it's not
really a fun activity, whereas when it's shared, where both
engaged and we're talking about it, which feels a little
bit more social.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I like that. What do you do at night?
Jesse Stevens.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
I go to the gym a couple of times a week.
I'm a nighttime gym person because I'm not a morning
gym person.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
What time do you go to the gym?

Speaker 1 (30:59):
I will go to the gym at about six point
thirty seven old.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Oh wow, I've always been in awe of people in
the gym at night, because when I've been gym person,
I'm a morning gym person. And when I walk past
the gym and I see it full at life eight
pm or whatever, I'm like.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
What, Yeah, I'm sure it's probably not good for you
sleep or any Do you.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Get energy at that time or is it just something
like I have to do.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
That's when I will get a peek and energy in
a way that if I went in the morning, I
would just be feeling really sluggish. I feel as though
by that time I've been eating all day, like I
feel fine to do it. So I'll go and do
that a few nights a week, which Luca will put
Luna down.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
I think that's a good habit because it stops you
from doing other things like eating ice cream or drinking wine. Oh,
I was gonna save No, there's anything wrong with eating
ice cream and drinking wine.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
But you know, well, you can also do that when
you get home from So then we get home and
we every night have our TV show and we'll talk
about it during the day.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
We will send each other links to things.

Speaker 4 (31:53):
That is the thing that we look most forward to
and we also like Luna goes to bed and then
we do dinner and show.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
And is it like you guys are strict on like
one or two episodes. You're not in a rabbit hole
of like binge watching.

Speaker 4 (32:08):
Yes, and phone away because that was annoying us, I think,
And I've heard people say. I've had like a psychologist say,
are you going to spend your whole life sitting on
the couch watching shows?

Speaker 1 (32:17):
And I'm like, that's what I feel like doing, like
I'm exhausted.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
And then when we get into bed, I don't like
mindlessly scrolling TikTok. So Luca has his algorithm set for
us and then he harvests. That's what he says.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
He says, I'm going to go out to the fields
for us. It's got the softest hands because he's never
harvested in his life.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
So he goes out to the field and then he
likes a bunch, and then he says, I have a
plentiful Oh curate.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Excuse me, excuse me. Your pre bed scrolling has been
curated by your husband. We organized and is there like
an end where it stops? And also do you watch
it together?

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (32:53):
So then he's found a bunch, which is we have
very similar humor interests, and like, he'll just find a
bunch that he knows we like, and then he'll go,
I have funny tiktoks to show you, and then we
lay there and he might have ten. And if it's
not a plentiful harvest, sometimes it's three. It's very disappointing.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Are you also judging his selection?

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah? Sometimes I look at it and I'm like, was
that an accident?

Speaker 4 (33:14):
And then we watch it together and then at least
this thing that can be really sad is kind of
shared like, which feels less. And also there's an end point, right, yeah,
there at that point I'm not too going like me, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
I feel sick if I scroll too long.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Oh and I always read. I always read before bed.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
But we're talking about this recently, Holly, I'm only getting
in ten minutes before I fall asleep at the moment, which.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Is it's not satisfying.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
It's very different different stages in your life obviously, right.
So I definitely had a phase in my life, quite
a long phase in my life where I had a
literal diary and it would have had something in it
every night, either a work thing or a friend's thing,
or drinks with so and so thing, or dinner with
so and so thing. I call this my m era.
And then there was the many years, the decade or

(33:58):
so where everything you did at night was all around bedtime.
This is my Jester Stephen's era. Yeah, so it's like
you are everything's good around that seven seven point thirty
when the kids go down or the kid goes down
and you get to go and collapse on the couch.
We have to give ourselves grace for different rules in
different phase of your life. Because our out louders who's

(34:19):
worried about connection with her partner is a very real thing,
but it's like, I don't think you have to worry
about that necessarily so much when you're in that little kid,
give yourself a bit of grace. If you're on a
lie and scroll your TikTok on your own, I think
you're allowed. And equally, I think that if you're going
out every night and you love it, and you are
allowed to watch a TV showever, I want to give
you permission. You think you're so social and you work hard,

(34:41):
and you're allowed to watch a TV show Anyway, I
think we digrece. But these days I'm in a different
phase again because my kids are older, bedtime isn't so
much of a thing, and my daughter in particular is
up blad than I am often and so that changes
everything again, right, So we have different routines for different
nights of the week. Week nights, dinner at the table,
and I'm not always home because often I'm here. But

(35:02):
if I'm dinner at the table, always together, and then
like half an hour to an hour of like family TV,
viewing something we're watching together.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
What are you watching at the moment?

Speaker 3 (35:11):
So we might be watching Lego Masters. We might be
watching a movie that we'll watch in bits over a week,
you know what I mean. We'll watch half an hour
of it tonight, half an hour of it tomorrow night.
We might watch I don't know. They sometimes docos and things,
but it's getting harder and harder to find things everybody
wants to watch.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Bodny Blue is a fun one for the my god,
Brent and Billy have been watching adolescents actually, which I
think is quite a good thing for Billy to be
watching at his age with adult supervision.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
But then on the weekends it's different. Thursday nights as
out Loud is no Trivia night, Brent Night, that's our
date night and ver commas. What do the kids do
on date night? They stay home. They love it because
they're old enough to stay home, and they love it
because it means basically, Billy will get to players video
games until we come home, as opposed to me being
there and being good to Ben. Weekends, Brent Night will

(35:59):
usually go and have a drink early in the evening,
like five o'clock sundown, drink together, a little catch up,
and then dinner with the family and a movie like
it's very wholesome, but it's like and it just set
these rules out. We didn't set them out.

Speaker 7 (36:14):
Like.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Our lives have changed a lot, obviously. Moving where we live,
there isn't like lots of social stuff to do and
our friends we are more likely to socialize in the
afternoons or the daytime than nighttime very often because everyone's
a drive away. Like, it's just very different. Living in
a small town. Everything closes early, Everything closes early. There
aren't very many places to go out for dinner, so

(36:35):
obviously we do do that, but we're more likely to
do it in the afternoons. I used to work at
night a lot when the kids were smaller. I wrote
two books I Reckon between the hours of eight and ten.
Like the kids go to bed, I'd go to bed
with my laptop. But now they don't go to bed,
so that's shifted. So I might still go to bed
with my laptop, but it's more likely that one of
them will come in and lie down and insist on
this and that and whatever, and you're like, hunt, you're

(36:55):
a teenager, on you fucking what are you doing here?

Speaker 1 (36:59):
There's something sacred.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
I used to work at night, and I actually don't
work at night so much anymore. I've changed me neither.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
I decided that having that period as something to look
forward to throughout the day, Like I have chocolate every night, Yeah,
and I.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Go when you have your dinner, you.

Speaker 4 (37:14):
Get your chocolate, and I just get so excited and
like sit there and it's just the little glimmers that
just make me.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Feel there's glimmers. It's definitely glimmers. I know that if
I let myself scroll, particularly if I'm in the city
and I'm on my own to your point before m
I can get a bit sad. Yeah, And I think
that watching a TV show that I've chosen to watch,
and I'm putting the phone away. To your point, Jesse
feels different.

Speaker 4 (37:40):
So on parenting out Loud, we talked about using your phone,
turning it into a landline, so plugging it in, and
that's where the phone lives when you're at home, because
if it's within hand distance, it's just all bets are off,
and that's the thing that's zapping the connection to me,
like more so than anything else.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
I want to know. I'd have one more thing to
ask you about this because somebody in this thread said,
for Fox's sake or you boring married people, why aren't
you having sex?

Speaker 1 (38:07):
I actually one person.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
It's like, not one person in any of these couples
said they were having sex. And somebody said, I'm single.
And when I look at all these people who have
sex on tap and they're like wordling and doing scrabble,
It's like, why aren't you?

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Can you imagine that people were having sex every Now you.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Know how hard it is as a single person to
have sex. It feels like you have an opportunity that
you're not taking advantage of it.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
That's a part that makes it fun, that it's a
little bit hard.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
That is not the part of fun.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
I actually did think that when I was scrolling on
her people exploring salsal classes.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
You're more going to go to salsal classes and to
a out loud as eternal defense. She said, we have teenagers,
which is true. It's very hard to have sex in
a house with teenagers. They just wander around and open
doors and everyone can hear everything. It's very complicated. Anyway,
out loud as, what do you do at night? Who's

(39:08):
got the best ideas? Give some habits, some good habits.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
After the break, we bring you our Friday recods, including
two things to watch this weekend.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
One unlimited out loud access.

Speaker 4 (39:19):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes
to get us in your ears five days a week.
And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Vibes ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
This is my best recommendation.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
It is Friday, and we want to help set up
your weekend with our very best recommendation.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
Jesse. Okay, I have two ooh, I have a TV
show called The Girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Has anyone heard.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Us, so you recommended it, and I watched the first
one last night, and my goodness, it is good ripping.
All right.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
So do remember the Perfect Couple that I think was
on Netflix with Nicole Pitman.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
I do.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
It reminds me tonally of that, right is it? It's
this kind of psychological thriller, family drama thing, but it's
got Robin Wright who plays the mum and she's also
the director, and basically it is her and her son's
girlfriend and it flips perspectives, so it goes from Laura

(40:27):
the mum to Cherry the girlfriend, and it just ramps
up and up and you don't know who to believe
in terms of what happened. So suspenseful, so fun. It's
on Prime video, so.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
It's also got some excellent and at least the first
episode some excellent house porn in it, because it's set
in London and these people live in this like I've
never I don't even know people live. Then they go
to Spain and the houses and the fashion and so
very very fun, so fun.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
And look, I realize I've been going a bit heavy
on the TV, particularly the documentary is lately, so I
wanted to throw in a very smart book that will
make you feel good about the world. It is called
Nature's Last Dance Tales of Wonder in an Age of
Extinction by Natalie Karaku. She's an environmentalist and this book
is an antidote to the feeling of despair we all
have when it comes to the climate. And I have

(41:16):
found myself not able to read the news about the
state of the world, like the anxiety I get from
natural disasters.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
All of that.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
This book, the whole point of this book is going
look up and look around. If we have any chance
of saving this, we need to fall back in love
with nature.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yes, And so.

Speaker 4 (41:34):
It's about hope, and it's about stories of human resilience
and things that they've done to save local wildlife. It's
about what we can learn from certain animal populations like matriarchies.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Is it sad, No, that's the thing is it's so
so hopeful. And I went to her book.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Launch The Last Dance, but it makes me a bit sad.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
But the reason she calls it that is because she's like,
when nature is under this amount of stress, it starts
to do really unusual things that are incredible.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
And what we start to do.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
I remember hearing this about the Great Barrier Reef that
the word thing you can do to the Great Barrier
Reef is go, well, it's all dead now and everyone
stops going and you pull the.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Life support out. It's not dead.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
It's still beautiful and we all need to just like
invest in it and work out how we can visit
and support so that it continues to sustain itself. But
it's all about hope and basically making sure that we
raise our kids to go outside and look around and go.
We should just be feeling awe and wonder every single
day at what's around us in order to go this

(42:38):
is all worth fighting for. So it's a stunning book.
You can listen audiobook as well. But it's funny and
it's really really well written. It is called Nature's Last Dance.
M what's your recommendation?

Speaker 2 (42:48):
So I'm recommending a show called gen V. It's on
Prime Video.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Have you wa aout you at Generation?

Speaker 2 (42:59):
It is a spin off show from the show called
The Boys, which is also.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
On Prime Video. I think I recommend it on the.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Podcast a few years ago. It's like a superhero show.
It's a superhero show. So The Boys for me is
a show that if superheroes.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Were real in the real world.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
This is the most accurately represented way superheroes can be seen.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
It is so.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Gruesome, so gory, very r rated. It is not a
kid's show. Gen V is a spinoff show. So GENV
is about the next generation of superheroes and they're all
at this big university. And in the university, it's all
these soups learning their powers. They're called soups learning their
powers and they get ranked on the most powerful and

(43:39):
whoever's the most powerful get to make it into the Seven,
which is kind of like the Avengers, so like the
superheroes of the world. It is so so good because
it's just so realistic, especially with the political climate that
happening in the US right now, and it just shows
like if these men had superpowers, there's no way they'd
be a Captain America. There's no way they'd be an

(44:00):
Iron Men. They'd be like these crazy, dangerous, scary men.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Oh wow. And they wouldn't use it for good.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
No, no, no, no, no one is using their powers for good.
And it's just so well done.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Is it something that they could watch from their kids?

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Is it something I can't watch it? You guys can
watch it, but it's fad with your partners. But jenv
Season two has just come out really sadly after season
one came out, one of the main actors, Chance Perdomo,
he passed away in a motorcycle accident.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
He was one of the biggest cast members.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
He was brilliant and I think they've done his storyline
very tastefully in season two.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
But yeah, it's a spinoff.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Show that's part of the main show, but it's not
one of those spinoff shows where you feel like you
don't need to watch it. Like if you don't watch
a spinoff show, the main show the next season won't
make sense. They're very connected. But it's just so good,
Like I need everyone to watch it because I can't
talk to anyone about it because no.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
One's watching it love it. Oddly, my recommendation is kind
of connected to what Jesse just talked about about or
in Nature, because I'm recommending a piece that Julia bad
wrote in the nine newspapers this week. Everybody knows who
Juliabad is. She is an amazing Australian writer, podcaster, journalist, author, etc.
And she writes and talks a lot about it or

(45:10):
and this week she had a column that was about
a list of all the tiny things in life that
you love. And that might sound sort of twee and
unimportant and like a bit saccering somehow, but it really
connected with me and I'm sure many many many other

(45:30):
people because gestures around the state of the world right Like,
I'm not suggesting in any way that we should be
putting our heads in the sand about some of the
really scary shit that is going on everywhere. I think
that's obviously a very privileged position, and I think that
we should all be doing whatever we need to do
to make ourselves feel right about that, in terms of

(45:52):
donating our time, campaigning to our politicians, all of that stuff.
But I also catch myself, and I know I'm not
alone in this listening to the news or scrolling my
phone lately, and every story then spins me into an
existential angst that will go into my children. But the
world but this, but that, and I just like find

(46:13):
myself spinning. And I know so many other people do
that too. And the point of this list that Julia
Baird writes about, and she was inspired by Andrea Gibson,
who's an amazing American poet who passed away.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
I've been reading their poetry is incredible.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yes, because one of their final substack poems I guess
before they passed, was about this, about holding onto the
little things you love. It's not about ignoring the big stuff.
It's about grounding yourself in what matters. And obviously, Julia
Baird is a beautiful writer. Her list is gorgeous, and
it's so interesting because actually, when you think about writing

(46:49):
your own list of this, I think a lot of us,
they would be very similar. Yeah, and a lot of
it for her is about nature. It would be for
me too. But she writes about I love autumn leaves,
I love libraries. I love the way old men blow
their noses in a way a novice might blow a tuba.
I love the way dogs stare up at us, the
way we stare at the moon. I love the chaos
and freedom and disruption of street art. I love people

(47:10):
who go on social media and tell strangers they're proud
of them. I love knitters of beaners and bears. And
it just is so beautiful the way that she writes
about this, and then it encouraged me to literally write
my own list and I'm not going to go on
about that. Maybe I'll put it in the substack or something,
but you know, for me, it was things like I
said before about when Brent and I walk to have
our drink five o'clock on a Saturday, and the way

(47:33):
the sky's changing with the trees behind it and the
soil and the all those things. The smell of my dog's,
my kid's skin.

Speaker 4 (47:41):
Like the other day I walked out of our house
and I went, oh, smells like spray.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yes, that smell in the air where it changes.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
The smell of the seasonal change. I love that. I
love it when it tips into winter and you suddenly
get that edge like it's about noticing the little things,
and we can call them glimmers, we can call it
all hunting. I think it's probably really useful, not as
an escape, but as like a bolstering somehow. So we'll
put a link in the show notes to Julia's beautiful
piece about it. Her headline on it was, what are

(48:09):
the tiny things in life that I love? I've made
a list, and that's.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Before we go.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
We like to surprise each other. Sprinkles a little glimmers,
even on this show. I have some news to share
with you both.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Oh please tell me I am pregnant.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Stop it?

Speaker 3 (48:29):
Are you actually twins? No, you're not, You're not You're
actually not? I am you actually are?

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Are?

Speaker 3 (48:40):
My God?

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Are you?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Did you know?

Speaker 4 (48:47):
I haven't told you I'm.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
A millionaires. I have so much to tell you both
that I have.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
I'm like shaking.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
Stop.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I'm so happy about this.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
I have so much to tell you. Tell us, tell us,
tell us.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
So I spoke on this podcast about losing a pregnancy.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
In fact, I'll tell you what. The tarot card reader
did not see that anymore. Okay, I'm shutting.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
Up there that I want to revisit from that tarot
card reader that I kept saying to the producers, you
know what, don't delete that, just leave that bit because
there's some bits I would like to revisit. Anyway, I
was like six seven weeks whenever you go for the
dating scan, and I'm laying there and she she does
my stomach, and then she goes, I'm going to do
an internal one just to double check.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
And then you must have been really nervous because what
you've been through.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
Yes, So she goes, I'm gonna do an internal one.
I'm gonna have a little look, then I'm going to
tell you what I can see. And she just goes
silent for like five minutes, and I was like, Okay,
this is not good news.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
But then she turns the thing around.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
She goes, there's your little baby with the heartbeat, and
then she just moves it and goes and there's.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Another little baby. And I just burst out into here
like joy shock. Everything going on with three children?

Speaker 4 (50:14):
Yes, And so anyway, Luca, who's in the middle of
a meeting, is going do you check it?

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Is there a heartbeat? And I was like, is there
a heartbeat? Is there? Are there is a There are
heart beats?

Speaker 4 (50:27):
So I told him and it was just the funniest reaction.
Told my mum, who you can imagine, like she just
lost it because I'm an identical twin right now. The
way that works is the egg split. I thought I
was at no greater chance of having twins because it's
a completely spontaneous thing that happens inside it.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Oh, so that's not genetic.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Identical twins are not genetic. Fraternal twins are genetic, and
I'm an identical twin. My brothers are identical twins, and
these I have the lowest risk. So it's called die
die twins, which is they have their own sex and
their own placentas, so they.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Have their own little room. They have their twins, means
they're not going to be able to Well, you and
your mind told you and Clare that you were identical
for thirty years.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
And for ages, everyone thought if you have your own
sack in your own placenta, then that means you're fraternal.
But what they've realized now is it about thirty percent
of those actually are identical.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
They just split early, which is what happened to me.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
So they are identical.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Well, we don't know until they're born, unless I find
out that they're a boy and a girl, in which
case they're not identical.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
And I haven't found out gender yet, but I know
in my heart that it's two boys.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Really, I know it.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
And Holly, how have you not noticed for the last I.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Have noticed that. I'm not saying anything because I'm a
grown up. We went out for dinner the other.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Week and I couldn't have a glass of wine.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
But I but like, I know what you've been through,
and I am not that person who goes you're pregnant,
you're pregnant. You're pregnant, but in the back of my
mind a little alarmed. I've been filing away. I think
Jesse's pregnant, and I'm so happy for her, but I
will be patient.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
Because I have been disappearing. We have our meetings at
eight thirty. Yeah, and then I've been disappearing because I
and I sit there.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Jesse eleven meals a day, like my appetite for three. Now,
I'm meaning for three.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
I get up, I eat, I have two lunches, I
have three dinners.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
I like, it's just her feeling. Are you feeling good?

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Are you feeling a little bit nauseous? But fine?

Speaker 4 (52:26):
So I am just about twelve weeks hopefully.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Oh my god, Jesse's.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Like the best news.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Guys. I'm going to be so big. Can you imagine?

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Oh my god, it's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Race, It's gonna be We're gonna.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
Have big of the studio. But she's gonna be sitting
all the way. Yeah, and we're gonna need a long
arm my.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
I keep looking at beautiful M who is having a baby.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
In five minutes, our producer M sits in with us,
and she's very, very pregnant with her beautiful bump, and
I just keep going, you look so good, You look
so good because she's got one.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
You should only have one.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Oh, I'm so excited for you because I know you
want a big family, right. I reckon people who are
not in twin families like me, i'd be like, oh
my god, this is so daunting.

Speaker 4 (53:08):
But you know, I think it will still be daunting.
It's incredibly daunting. And it's like waking up at two am,
going how.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Will I feed them? Wait? When will I sleep?

Speaker 5 (53:18):
Like?

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Where will they sleep?

Speaker 5 (53:20):
Like?

Speaker 1 (53:20):
It's incredibly overwhelming.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
They are due so officially it's meant to be early April,
but because twins come early, they have an earlier God.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
That's not that away. Going to be in two seconds?

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Shit, oh Jesse, that is the best Friday all time.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
I couldn't wait to tell the out louders.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
And the reason I was like needing to tell people
is because I look visibly pregnant.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
I know you've been wearing the bag you got the
baggy shirt on.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
She's not going to waste and I'm like, gods, I
got to let the gut out. I got to do
my Megan Markle rub of my tummy because that's what
I feel like doing.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Told me that woman is so.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
Excited, Oh my god, she would be. I'm surprised she
still went away. The chaos that is going to rain
in your house for several years is just going to
be the most fun.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
We've got more more little out louders coming happy, very exciting.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
I don't know how we all get together after that.
I'm supposed to be telling you about parenting out Loud, which,
as you all know, but God, you're really gonna need
that show. Yeah I am, which now has its own
own feed, so go and search and find it if
you're into that. Thank you to all of you for
being with us this week and for sharing Jesse's beautiful
news with us. Jesse M. Thank our amazing team. A
big thank you to our team.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Our group executive producer Rude Devine, our executive producers Emiline
Gazillas and Sashatanic.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porgies. Our video producer
is Josh Green. Fun fact about Josh Green before we go,
I think, get my coffee from a new place. Speaking
of glimmers and just things that make your life good.
You know, Josh Green goes every morning and just sits
in a cafe and reads a book paperback every morning.
I see him and I go, that's the most wholesome
shit I have said. Loved that you're doing life for

(54:58):
that man.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
It's also a really good drummer, is he Yeah? He plays.
This is the thing. I want to be one of
those people with lots of interests. Yes, that seems like
what does he do at night? But he plays? I
bet that's doing so much.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
He doesn't scroll. He doesn't scroll. And our junior content
producers are Coco and Tessa.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Goodbye on this floor this week.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
By goodbye.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it.
There's a link in the episode description

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