October 2, 2025 • 51 mins
Outlouders, where's the craziest place you've ever had sex? We need to talk about the rise in people having *ahem* private moments in public places. There's an interesting theory as to why which wait for it, involves the cost of living crisis. We clutch our pearls and explore.
Plus, what are the exact things men need to be doing in 2025 to be considered a gentleman? An extensive etiquette list for men has just landed — but is it common sense or controversial? Em V, Jessie and Holly sit down to discuss.
Also, do you need an 'Invisible Day' and if so, how do you get one and what are the rules?
And it's time for our reccos including some incredible books for the (long) weekend, and a podcast that has Holly all riled up.
Support independent women's media
Recommendations
Em V recommends The-Pile On by Clare Stephens
Jessie recommends The Worst Thing I've Ever Done by Clare Stephens.
Holly recommends Mad Mabel by Sally Hepworth and Gravity Let Me Go by Trent Dalton.
What To Listen To Next:
- Listen to our latest episode: Cool Things People Do That We Think Are Very Rock 'n' Roll
- Listen: Decoding The Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban Divorce Narrative
- Listen: Parenting Out Loud: Rihanna & A$AP Rocky's 'Love Junk' Rebrand & The TikTok Training Camp
- Listen: No Filter: Clare Stephens Was Always ‘The Twin’ or ‘The Editor.’ What Happened When She Walked Away?
- Listen: Vanessa Amorosi, Emma Watson & The Problem When Kids Earn More Than Their Parents
- Listen: Victoria Beckham’s Version & Jessie’s Very Big News
- Listen: “Tough It Out”. The Announcement That Upset Us More Than We Expected
- Listen: Everything You Need To Know About Writing A Book, With Holly & Jessie
- Listen: Girls' Trip Etiquette & Why You Need A 'Nicole Contract'
- Listen: The New Rules Of Etiquette For Every Age
Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the latest episode of Parenting Out Loud which drops tomorrow.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Friday, the third of October.
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Jesse Stephen, I'm m vern m
And here's what's on our agenda for today. There's a
new etiquette guide that is supposedly for modern gentlemen. But
some of it is very useful, some of it is
a bit annoying, and some of it borders on the problematic.
(00:44):
We unpack.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Plus gen z are having sex in public places and
they're not having a good time with it.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
They're struggling.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And today we've got for you some of our favorite
recommendations of the year that we have waited little months
to tell you all about.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
But first, do you need an invisible day? If you
if you're feeling anxious.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Or angry, or disconnected or quite overwhelmed by the news.
A therapist named Jennifer Chaikin says, you need a day
to totally disappear.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
From public life. So what are the rules of.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
An invisible day? Well, you've got to put it in
your calendar. You've got to schedule your invisible day. So
let's say we go Sunday, it's going to be my
invisible day. You have to tell people that you're having one,
because what you don't want is for the people you
would ordinarily be in contact with to panic and call
the police, and then the police ruin your invisible day.
So you've got to say, I'm not gonna be answering
(01:43):
my phone, hold on, hold on, holda.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So the premise of this is that on a normal
Sunday you would be in contact with loads of people.
So therefore, if you decide to not be on your
phone that day, a lot of people will notice.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, and imagine you are just like pulling out the
metaphorical plug.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
And also you might.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Need to say to your partner, maybe you've got children.
It's very hard to be invisible when you have children around,
so you might have to say, hey, I'm going invisible
on Sunday.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
You sought the kids.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh, so it's in real life invisible as well as
like digitally invisible.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Holly, So these see.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm midlife, I'm quite good at being invisible already.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, you have to work out what would feel good
for you. So this is part of your planning. What
does your invisible day look like? Maybe you can go
for a walk, you can eat whatever you want, you
can do some painting, you can watch Netflix in bed.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You're invisible, so there's no judgment. You get to rest,
you get to sleep. But you need to just not
communicate with anyone. That means no phone, it means no email,
it means no social media, and no checking the news.
And it's about listening to no one's needs except your own.
So like you are, just imagine you've got your Harry
Potter invisibility cloak and you're just hiding.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
What do we think, m are you into an invisible day?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I feel like, because I live alone, it's quite easy
for me to have invisible days on weekends because I
just stay inside and no one's there anyway. I think
what will be really hard for me is the phone aspect,
not having my phone on and having to tell like
my parents and my family and friends, Hey, I'm going
to have an invisible day. But I also be offended
if I don't tell anyone and I turn my phone off,
(03:19):
then turn my phone on the next day and I
have no notifications.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Actually, I am that I have this feeling when I'm
starting to feel very, very tired and probably a bit
burnt out, where I fantasize about laying on my bedroom floor,
head down, face first, just like maybe under my bed,
and just disappearing a bit. And I think that what
I am craving in that moment, it's like a visceral
craving of an invisible day. And I think that the
(03:45):
phone element is very telling that often when we try
and unplug, we're still just like communicating.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I know, I love being visible. I've talked about before
how one of the reasons why I'm very resistant to
the idea of being tracked, you know, like being on
your partner's fine mine or whatever is there's something that
sometimes I need to do where I am just invisible,
like what I'm eating, where I'm going, where I'm spending
my time, like I just it's nobody's business, and it's
like for me, that's very recharging. And I do do
(04:14):
that quite often. I mean obviously not with family and stuff,
like my house is full of people, but if I
do get a chance, let's say Brent's taking the kids
away for a couple of days. Yeah, going invisible for
a weekend is not hard for me, not hard for
me at all, Like I would just be like, not
really answering the group chats.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
But doesn't the idea of an invisible day for both
of you, because both of your jobs are so reliant
on being across the news cycle. If you go on
visible for a day, doesn't that give you more work
the next day?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
But what you do is, well, this is what I do.
Jensey can tell us. What she does is say I
want a Sunday where I basically do want to be
offline as much as I can. I know that that
night I'm going to need to go online and scour
and check and put some ideas in and just make
sure nothing terrible has happened. But I can be offline
for a few hours like it's okay and it doesn't
freak you out, not at all. Like if something really
(05:04):
big happens, which often it doesn't, like it will find
its way to you. I would not been able to
do this job for as long as I've done it
if I didn't feel like I could have a few
hours away from it. Sometimes And I.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Think, yeah, That's the thing is that they also say
Sunday nights, I have to go weak.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
You can have an invisible half day.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So if you feel exhausted at work and you're like,
you know what, I just need five to eight to
just disappear for a little while, you can also just
do that. But in reading about this, I came across
this concept called the window of tolerance, and it's the
ideal range of emotional and physiological arousal when a person
can think clearly. So we all have this window of tolerance,
(05:41):
and it's used a lot in therapy and psychology around
trauma because your window of tolerance can be very very
small and you can become really like hyper aroused, really
really quickly. Basically, these therapists were saying that the window
of tolerance has been shrinking for a lot of us
due to outside stresses, due to not properly resting, And
(06:02):
it made me think about those periods in your life
where you feel as though you just don't have a
lot of bandwidth and you feel as though one time
anything can set you off because your tolerance is an
all time low, and how having a day to regulate,
even a few hours to regulate just means that that
window is wider so that you're a better used to
people around you.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
We've been talking a lot lately on the show in
different ways about how nobody knows how to behave anymore,
and I feel like we've been telling We've been telling
people how to behave. We've done a few subtepts about
modern etiquette, and we've done them from the perspective of
generations X Y Z, and people love on mom and
MIA's site and on various people love an etiquette guide
even now because it's like, can we just agree on
(06:45):
some basically seems to be the vibe, right. There was
one that came out last week that was specifically for
men that I immediately became obsessiing it was from GQ.
It was called The Gentleman's Guide to Etiquette. Do you
need me to bring you up to speed quickly about
what GQ is people, Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It's like a men's magazine, but not a pony one. No,
so that GQ, but with less that we can read.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, Gentlemen's Quarterly. It is nearly one hundred years Gentlemen's Quarterly.
So it's called GQ, but it was originally called Gentlemen's
Quarterly and are like, we haven't been doing our job.
You men are all over the place. Yeah, and it
has been around for nearly one hundred years. Well it's
condo nast so it's like quite high status glossy mag
(07:30):
back in the day. I mean, no magazines are that,
you know, thick and glossy and fabulous anymore. But back
in the day, GQ is a big deal. And being
the editor of GQ is a big deal. There have
been lots of famous editors of GQ. And that it's
published in the UK, it's published in the US as
an Australian version. The UK one is the coolest. Don't
have me anyway. I think it's the American one that
published this etiquette guide. And so if you went to
(07:51):
GQ now, the kind of things you'd find in There
would be lots of stuff about watches, you know, like
cool watches, which celebrities are wearing, the really rare watches.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
How About what protein I should take?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Definitely protein information, how to buy a hack sep. Yeah,
And there would be like preppy sneaker guides, and there'd
be interviews with male movie stars, and there'd be headlines
like why leftists are suddenly lifting more weights, why you
should consider a swag gap relationship, and other such things. Right,
So it's a men's mac. Yeah. So the American one
(08:24):
has published this big etiquette guide called one hundred and
twenty five Rules for the Modern Gentleman, and it's like crowdsource.
They've got a little panel of people, including a woman,
Aviad Divinet is on there, and they have got their
rules and manners in place. I want to share a
few to see what you think, because I don't think
these are just for men, to be honest, I think
some of them are, like, yes, please adopt these men.
But some of them we could all live by. Take
(08:47):
out your AirPods when you're talking to someone, Muting does
not count.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I actually think that's very true.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I like this one and I sent it to a
few men in our office because there've been times where've
approached them and not only have they not taken them out,
but they've actually put them in.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's me, that's me. We should not be able to
smell you unless we are embracing you. That's about fragrance,
not body odor, Like how much fragrance you're wearing.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
That's of thumb.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
For all of it. For women, because when you walk
past someone and you get that blast in your please,
I like it, though, I go, oh, that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Sometimes it's my dad over does the colony. We'll be
in like family, like in the car as a family,
and I'd be like, Dad, i have to put the
windows down there too much, and he'd be like, that's
so mean. You always say this about Michael.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So the rule is if I'm hugging you, I can
smell it.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Otherwise, and it has to be like a nice like ooh.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, yeah, this is a good one, I think for everybody.
Never say I've already seen this. When someone sends you
a funny post.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, I do think I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yes, I'm guilty.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Also, I want to add something to that because I've
noticed when I like sharing funny posts with people. I've
noticed my girlfriends, when they share something with me, it's
they share it because they think I will find it funny.
When men share something with me, they share it because
they find it funny.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You have to cater to the person, and you're sending
it to interesting. I like this particularly for men, but
maybe for all of us. Never raise your voice at
someone unless there's an emergency. I like that. I like
that a lot. Yeah, no shouting, We're not shouting. I
want to ask you about some of the dating stuff,
m but I also want to get to the one
that I saw some controversial headlines about. They said this,
(10:29):
greet people, you know, with the single kiss on the
left cheek, unless you're in a business setting or meeting
someone for the first time, in which case stick with
a handshake. If you sent someone going in for a hug,
embrace it. Now. I saw some people grabbing that and going,
oh my god. GQ just told all the men to
kiss all the women, and we don't want you coming
(10:50):
at us with your kisses. Okay, can I well, how
do we feel broadly speaking about the single kiss on
the left cheek?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Okay? On Friday?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Last Friday, I had a little bit of work I
had to do, so I went to a cafe on
my own to get this work done.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Glorious.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
To make it even better, there was a date happening
next to me right and there was a man sitting
their way to and then the woman showed up and
he stood and he was clearly nervous. It was delightful.
He stood up and then he kissed her on one cheek.
She went to pull away, he went kissed her on
the other cheek and then he no, but it was awkward,
and she went oh, and he said it's a bit European.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And she said are you European? And he said no?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And who die? This man needed to kiss her once
on the left cheek, and I thought, this is why
we write these guides, because we just need a clear rule.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
But what about man, you do know her right like?
Because this one of the things that greet people you
know with a single cheek? Should you greet people you
don't know?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think that there is something about shaking the hand
of a grown man in a situation that isn't professional
that makes me feel uncomfortable, like what are you meant
to do? Part of me thinks that actually going in
for like a hugger and embrace is more intimate.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, I think I like the kiss on the especially
meeting friends and the introduce to people. I think always
kiss on the cheek. I just want all men to
do this because I have seen so many men who
get up to greet a woman and you can see
the dread in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yes, they don't know what they don't know what to do.
They freak out.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I've had a guy who had his hand crushed between
a stomach and his stomach. I've like hugged a guy
and I just had my all my foundation on his shirt.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I don't want to be doing that. Meet me at
my level, peck me on the cheek. I need clarity. Right,
you're meeting someone for the first time. So you're on
a date, like the people in Jesse's cafe. If you're
waiting for your date to turn up, and when he
turns up, are you expecting that he will greet you
with a kiss on the cheek. Yes, so not just
say hi, I would find a full snog.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
It's a kiss on the chake. It is absolutely a kiss.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
On the chack. Okayu.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
He would have been talking for about like a week
or two weeks, and they're like big, Like, I'm chatting
to a guy right now. We're sending like five messages
per convo, so.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
We're all growing.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I know who you are right now. Okay. Because I
have an unpopular opinion about this, I'm not prudish about it.
I don't mind it at all, But sometimes like, you know,
you'll go to a barbecue or something, right and all
your friend's partners are there, and there's a lot of men,
there's a lot of women. You can spend ten minutes
on all the going around kissing everybody like hi, Hi,
and then you might not talk to them again for
the rest of the day. And I'm like, do we
(13:27):
all have to No?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No, no, I have to kiss but I can't I
kiss like eighty percent in this was just one guy
that's that you refuse to kid.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I know him better, so I'll kiss him, Okay twice,
I'm not kissing him.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The image I'm getting is a hollyway and right high
fiving people. I can't get out of my head is
hollywalking into a barbecue and just going hi.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Putting here boys.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
But I think that's about efficiency, and you can see
sometimes a dread in people's lives.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
When someone walks in.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
They're like, I'm gonna do the kisses, and everybody's like
getting a line and it's like everyone fucking.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
And they always enough stepping on their feet yep.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And then you go, oh, now I'm going to go
and everyone's like no, no, no, no no, and you're like kiss,
and then you have to do it all again, Like
that's not fun for anyone. I think you can do
a great wave just like a Hi guys, Hi, Hi,
nice to see you all.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Don't need to do all the don't need to do
all the individual kissing.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I would think I've done something wrong. Are there any
men who shouldn't kiss you? I mean once on the
left chee? Are there any men like in your work,
like the people who are upset about this information being
out there and seeing it as invitations for men to
just come and kissin.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Any corporate setting. I think anything even walk into a
boardroom meeting and any work setting, any situation like that.
Absolutely not. I think that we've got to be as
gender neutral in the office as possible. Shaking hands fabulous.
I just think I think that's fine out in public.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's funny because if I see your husband Luca at
work all the time, high Luca. If I come and
see Luca in a social setting, kiss Luke on the cheek.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So that's the rule.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
There was another one that I thought was because this
comes down to chivalry, right, which I do think is
an awkward social tension.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Very at this unpopular.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Word and an unpopular word, but there is something about
rules and guidelines and responsibilities that do make people feel safe.
And how do you explain to young men that, you know,
if you've got sons one day, they're probably going to
be stronger than their mum. So how do you explain
to them that helping the woman next to you on
(15:32):
the plane to put their carry on up is a
kind thing to do?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Or That was one of the rules which I thought
was really good. And the other one was was the rule.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
To always help with the carry out that I really
like that. I think I fall in love with every
man who I see do that.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It's so nice because it's like you're taller and you're
stronger generally.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
And the shirt lifts up a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, and they go, I've got it, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Thank you, can you see that? Biceps pitrude?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
The other one, oh, men who help you with the pram?
Oh my gosh, like I'm with stairs or whatever, And
a man will often he'll just go, can I give.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Your hand with that? And just gets it.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
You go, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But the one that they said which was interesting was
about holding the door, and it was again gender neutral man, woman,
as long as it's a reasonable time hold the door
open for someone. And I was like, interesting, what's a
reasonable time?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Though? I think we've discussed this on them Etiquette Gough.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I think we discussed it in a subscriber episode, and
I think somewhere between five and ten seconds, Okay, I think.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I think the reason why chivalry has become tricky is
because people love to weaponize chivalry. Right, Like you will
hear men say things like, oh, you can't even hold
a door open for a woman anymore, And I'm like,
I have never complained about having a door held open
for me, But I have complained, or at least certainly
internally complained about sexist comments, the way that you looked
(16:48):
at my boobs instead of my face, all of those
kind of things. Like women understand, we intrinsically understand when
people are treating you with respect or when people are
treating you with disdain. And very few women that I
have ever met would complain about anyone holding a door
open for that.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I've complained about going out to dinner with a man
who insists on paying, but then subtly uses that later
to trick you into having them Yeah, it's like I
can see that transaction being used, but you're not allowed
to insist on paying for my dinner and then expect
anything in return.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
That's exactly right. That's the other thing is that who
men should we have to pay for dinner? So you
like some bits of chivalry and not others. And it's
again women understand in my experience when somebody is giving
us something to get something anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
One day, one of my favorites and I just think
we need this on the record for all our male listeners.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And I'm sorry, but it is men.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
We don't like to discriminate, but it is always sneeze,
as if you're at a library or a fish of it.
I was reading this this morning, and I was downstairs
getting a coffee and a man sneezed, and I thought
it was an emergency, Like I thought that we needed
to call the police because someone had broken into the building.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Why they do that?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Why do they do that?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know what I think we should do when we
hear a loud sneeze, stand up and class, because that's
essentially what they want.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I hate to tell you this, but you know, also
men's sneezes get louder as they get older, and there
are women in my world who just sneeze has been
the catalyst trying to push them.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Because you know what this anymore selfish? It's my dad.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Sneezes make literally the walls shake, and it's like you
think everyone should actually listen to your sneeze, Like why
don't you at least try to make it a little quiet.
There is a sense of entitlement about the sneeze that
I think represents a lot of other things.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I love that one em I've got some other dating ones.
I want to ask. Be unambiguous when asking someone out.
Suggest dinner, not drinks or coffee. We've talked about this,
whether that's okay or not. Imply that you'll pay, and
differentiate this hang from any previous hangs, ideally with a compliment.
I always love running into you. Can I take you
to dinner sometime? Thoughts? Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I nearly cried happy tears when I read this, because
I feel like when it comes to dating, it's like
you both have preferences of what you like and what
you don't like when it comes to chivalry, but you
don't mention it yet because it's too early. So then
you both play like kind of this political game of
what you both deem is like acceptable social norms. So
(19:15):
you come into the date now and I feel like
I've been on dates with men who really struggle with
this where they have offered to pay, and if I
don't want to see them again, that's usually when I suggest,
can we split the pilms? I don't want to owe
them something and they kind of go, oh, yeah, yeah,
of course, like we can split, And it's always this
weird transaction where they're trying to do what they think
(19:36):
is the quote unquote right thing, and then it's like
society or like me going, no, I actually want to pay,
or like no going but it said I had to insist. Yeah,
I had to insist, and I'm trying to do that.
Or they're like, oh, do you want the boot seat?
And I was like no, because I know my bum
won't fit through those two little tables, so you take
the boot seat and then they're like, oh, okay, are
you sure you don't like it's so weird now, like
(19:56):
it's getting really political in dating.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I have a question for you. This one came up.
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
This was in the dating section the what exactly are
we doing here? Conversation should happen somewhere around the fifth date,
and basically you've got to answer it.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
And I think they should initiate it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think they need to be because I'm always one
initiating it, and then I get broken up with and
I'm like, damn it, three more dates?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And there were moments where I was like, it has
been seven moms, Yeah, I think it's appropriate.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
And I'm like, oh, I'm not sure how I feel.
I'm like, what do you think about the five date suggestion? There? Though?
So five dates is enough time for it to be
entirely acceptable for one or both of the parties to
go what is this? I agree?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I agree five dates because if you go on a
date a week, that's essentially a month you're a month in.
Surely that gives you grounds of like whether you want
to keep seeing me or not?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, what do you think about this? It's uncouth to
show your friends someone else's dating profile. Those are meant
to be seen by people on the app, and people
on the app only, not your boys after you've had
three drinks at the bar, or even worse, screenshotted and
shared with strangers online. Don't break the contract of mutual vulnerability.
Make you show me a lot of dating profile a lot,
(21:13):
but if I ask, you'll show me. But I feel
like I.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Show dating profiles in the way, like, look, how cute
this guy is.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
This is what he looks like.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah, you're never mean. No, that's actually a good point.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I thought taking it out of context was interesting because
I've seen some friends say, oh, I've saw one of
your friends on a dating app and shown me, and
I feel as though I'm seeing them in their.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Underwear very vulnerable. Yes, that I go.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That wasn't designed for me, and they deserve some privacy
in this context. I also liked this one. Stop walking
three feet ahead of your partner.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
You know, Brent does this, like he walks fast and
he always walks ahead of me, and it drives me crazy,
Like it's we go walking together every.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Day and then they get irritated.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, and then I'm like, hey, I'm back here, and
oh sorry, you have to walk next to your partner
and you have to be on the road side so
for carcarms you can save them. That was in here too.
It actually so it's interesting because I see that as
a bit of an old fed chivalrous move, but in
here it did say sorry, I know it might be
a bit old fashioned, but you have to be on
that side. I thought, shit, am I supposed to tell
(22:18):
my boy about that?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
I think it's kind of nice.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I think when they do it quietly, it's sexy.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
When I was the last person I dated, he did
this in a quiet way where we be walking the
street and he'll just like slowly walk behind me and
walk on the other side.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So sexy. Oh that is hard. It's hard.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
But if they're pushing you out of the waving home
on the roadside, it's like.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's not off the road, no yelling. I have an
age gap one that I need to ask Jesse about
because she has opinions. The age gap rule for adults.
This is for adults. Remember used to be that men
shouldn't date below half your age plus seven. We like
SAGEGQ half your age plus ten. Hey, nothing's inflation proof,
(22:58):
they joke. We can call this the gentleman's age gap
and know your metabolic age doesn't count.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
So I worked out it took me literally twenty four
hours maths on this, but I was like, I think
I broke this rule. At the beginning, but I have
got in the clear as the years have gone on.
I think now if I'm thirty four, then that means
I could date a.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Twenty two year old.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, that sounds rare that Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And Luca's twenty eight. Oh my goodness, it's totally fine.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Did it look bad like at the beginning, Maybe a
little bit. But the thing about age is you generally
get older.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
So I've been.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Dating younger recently because everyone my age and older all
have kids, and I'm like, oh, I actually don't know
what to do with that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, well you've not caught them at their first divorce yet.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, so you got a way. I've got to wait
it out. Yeah, half your age plus seven four like
man in their forties plus ten. They said, oh, plus ten,
that's right, which doesn't cause I'm four a forty four
year old divorcee. Yeah. In this rule would be we're
so bad at maths, all of thirty two thirty two.
Mine would be like twenty five.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, so you're allowed to do twenty five. You haven't
done younger than twenty five.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I've done younger than twenty five. Twenty threeman's age. I
met a.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Nineteen year old in the club recently. Oh, that's a
bit of it scared me. He was very into it, and
I was like, no, no, in your life.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
There was one I really liked, which was when someone
you know has a baby arranged to send them dinner
one night during the first month. And the reason I
liked that one is because I thought about all the
social rules that have passed through generations of women, because
we're socialized to communicate and to almost share that kind
of etiquette, like I've just learned from osmosis, from watching
(24:44):
my mum, what you're kind of meant to do. And
what was really cool about that one is I thought
their fathers probably didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Do that or didn't know you were meant to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
True, and it's a nice generational shift to think that
men will now go, oh, my mate, who's just had
a baby, I'm actually going to do something. And they
said the same thing applies for illness or if someone's
in hospital, just one dinner.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I was like, yeah, that's nice. This one is crucial
in the summer. Take two hours a day.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yep, completely agree, morning and night.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, it's a two shower situation. Don't get into do
you take two showers a day. In the summer, I
am a morning shower. I think we've discussed this before.
You're a nighttime shower, aren't you.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Just I do both. I do get night sweats. Because
of my night sweats, I do have to have.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
A morning shower. And then I also, you got to
be nice and clean when you get into bed.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Now, I'm a morning shower, so I do definitely get
into bed dirty. But in the summer, I appreciate this
one in that like if I'm going out, you know
what I mean, Like I'm showering in the morning like normal,
but then I'm showering again later if I'm going out
doing something right.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Okay, I want to point out rule number sixty eight.
No man who doesn't post for work sho'd have a
public Instagram.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That is a really controversial rule. Do you think I
had never considered that there was something ungentlemanly or unmasculine
whatever that means about men having social media.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I incctively agree with it, and I've heard and it's wrong,
Like I've heard MSA.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Public instagrams are for the girls.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
What if they enjoy it? That's just a I struggle
with that. I want to know if out louders think
that's true, Like if a man enjoys like the sharing
photos Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
No, no one knows what they're doing with their settings
on Facebook. I feel like Brent's definitely public on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Oh my god, Brent, it's definitely public. But like I'd
never considered it before. It's very interesting to me. Now
I'm going to see it everywhere. I'm going to be like, oh,
he's got a public Instagram. I don't know block out
loud as. I need to know if you agree out
louders gen z.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Are having sex in all sorts of public places, and
we really need an unpack.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Why out Louders.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
We've got a listener dilemma and we need your collective
wisdom to help us and our partner's UI solve it.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Please.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Here is the problem from our listener. Two and a
half years ago, I visited my brother in law's house
with my partner and our nine month old son. They
had just adopted a massive bull Mastiff, their first dog ever,
and they weren't familiar with dog behavior. When my sister
in law picked up my crawling baby, she started yelling
at the dog and batting the dog away. I saw
(27:17):
the dog stiff and growl and go to Mauth that
my son. I immediately asked if we could put the
dog outside, but I was dismissed as overprotective. When my
brother in law let the dog straight back in, I
packed up and we left. Since then, they've ignored me
at every family event. My brother in law even lied
claiming the dog never made a move despite not being
in the room. My partner says our son's safety comes first,
(27:40):
but he won't address his brothers lie or how his
family treats me. He's openly said he'll always choose his
family over me. I don't need him to cut off
his family. I just want to stop being treated like
the villain. The real issue isn't the dog anymore. It's
how unsupported I feel. I'm tired of always being the
bigger person while they rewrite history and punish me for
basic parenting. How long am I expected to sit quietly
(28:04):
while his family freezes me out for doing what any
parent would do?
Speaker 4 (28:07):
What do you do next?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I have a question for the relationship is on the table,
which is the two of you saying to your partner
openly and freely, I will always choose my family over you.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Is that a red flag?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's a real red flag, because it's like, I didn't
ask you to choose.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I feel like that's.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
A weird pitting them against each other. Like I wouldn't
want him ever to say or pick you over my
family or pick my family over you. That's not what
she's asking him to do. So it feels like it
almost quite a manipulative I think to say.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I think it's a red flag for him to bring
it up like that. Like Jesse says, in my experience,
you should never make anybody try and choose. And I
have seen it happen where a woman might have gone
into relationship and she doesn't like the mother in law
and so she kind of she's like me, yeah, and
it never works out. Well, you can't slug off other
people's family. She just can't, not in like a serious
(29:02):
way anyway. But this is really weird. This is so
weird because two and a half years this is weird.
Right the incident in the first place, there's no question
in my mind that our questioner was in the right there.
Agree put the bloody dog outside. I love dogs. I've
got a dog who some people are scared of and
I've had dog breeds in the past that people don't
like you are sensitive to that you put the dog outside.
(29:24):
Of course you do likeh forget it holding on to
that for two and a half years, I just wouldn't
be going to family functions.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I wondered if it was a matter of picking up
the phone, Like, you've got two options, right, you don't
go to the family functions, or you call the sister
in law slash brother in law whoever you feel like
has more of the beef, and you go, can we
just not this out?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Can we just been two and a half years?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Can you just this is what I felt happened. I
was worried that something was going to happen with my kids.
Like whether it's a misunderstanding or it feels like it
got out of hand, whatever, I think you've got to
at least try to nut it out. But I also
understand her feeling like she's not being backed up or
supported by her partner husband. That's really really not good.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So what should she do next? So you say, wake
up the phone. I say, in my non confrontational style,
just don't go to any more family events.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I say, talk to the husband and be like, dude,
come on, sort it out.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
This is your favor.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, it is true, that's when you And also he
kind of agreed initially, like he also like yeah, was
with her and like they picked up the baby and left.
So initially he was like on her quote unquote side,
And now just feels a bit weird that he's just like,
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Out louders, what would you do next? Share your thoughts
in the moment. We are out loud Facebook group and
if you have a dilemma, send it to us at
out loud, at momamea dot com, dodau.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We would love to help you fix it. Chensey, don't
know where to have sex?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Have you been having sex in public? Again?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
It's really stressing us. What's been going on?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Okay, So love Honey did a survey and they found
that forty percent of the responding to a age between
eighteen and twenty four were living with their parents. I
have a lot of friends who either still live with
their parents or had to move back in with their parents,
and a lot of them are over the age of twenty.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Four as well.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Out of the people they surveyed, also, fifty six percent
of respondent said that they had to stop masturbating or
having sex because they had been interrupted, which I feel
like is too high.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Of a percentage.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So gen Z have had to get a bit creative
where they're having sex. A lot of them have said
that they're now having sex in public places. Most of
them said that they've been having sex in public bathrooms.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Oh wow, stop it, they're not hygienic. What's wrong with cars?
Young people have been having sex in cars for many years.
I guess you. Cars are expensive. I say, this is
part of the cost of living crisis. Now the payment
for it is that we have to watch out what
we touch in bathrooms. We want to go get we
(31:54):
can't be doing that. It's a whole other bit.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You're doing that when you guys were teenagers. How are
you getting creative in getting a bit sexy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I did
a call out to the out loudest. Oh there's some
dirty gaps among our out louders, And we did an
anonymous poll and we said, where is the weirdest place
where you've had sex in public? And the interesting detail
I kept say coming up was when they were around
this age, So nineteen twenty twenty one. It was public parks,
(32:27):
lots of car parks like in cars car parks.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
And the other one that was probably the most popular
was the cinema right towards the back.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Cameras. Do they it's dark? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
No, they have cameras because I'm watching you, because I'm
checking to see if you're filming the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
So then they come with their little tour a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Of things really, and the person coming a little torch
is usually another teenager.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
I really said supermarket.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Yeah, I wondered about I wonder which is which exactly?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Surely the cheese for safe sex purposes, I hope it
was the condom and loub section. And then some people
said in a fire truck, there's a story there. That's
the really outing story there. A church that's a bit kinky, a.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Church a graveyard came up as well.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
It feels like I'm making a statement. Hotel balcony that
makes sense. Paddocks of a winery.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Another one that came up a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And I want us to sort of dissect this as
a team, because, as you say, am not everyone has
a car, Yeah, so what do they need to get
an uber?
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Now?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
A lot of people taxis and ubers. We did discuss
in our Etiquete guard a little while ago, what are the.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Driver's doing while that's happening.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I remember I told you guys how happened to my
friends and she got kicked out and charged seventy dollars
for public in decency.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Right, so you're not allowed you're not allowed to be
doing that.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
I want to know if the person she was having
sex with in the back of the uber split that. Fine, ooh,
that's a good attiquate question. Should you split the five?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Actually, I'm going to put it out there Jena Win's guide.
If you and a partner get done for public indecency,
I think you've got to pay, as.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Honestly what they think of. I think it's dependent on
who's doing the most movement, because surely you're caught who's
we're showing the most flesh? Like, how indecent did it get?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I feel like a lot of these responses though it's
not much I need to have sex because there's nowhere
else for me to have sex, and it's more voyeurism.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I think there's two different types of public sex. Yes, right,
there's public sex as a necessity and the other week,
I was walking across Hyde Park in the middle of Sydney,
like a sort of five o'clockish, and there was this
couple on the under a tree sunny evening, you know,
like I don't think we're having sex, but they're really
going for it. And I remember thinking oh, and then
like ooh and then ah. But it took me back
(34:48):
very viscerally to times in my life where I didn't
have anywhere to go to have sex because of flatmates,
because you're sleeping on someone's couch because whatever, and like
I was traveling or whatever, and that there was a
very visceral need. You were seeing somebody and you're physically
obsessed with each other, and you're young and you're hot
and everything. There's that kind of public sex which is
(35:09):
like no one can see us. It's almost like you
think you're invisible, like an ostrich with their head in
the sun, Like no one can tell what we're doing,
and everyone can tell what you're doing. But then there's
public sex for the fun of it, right the borderline,
Oh we might get caught.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, So the hotel balcony that came up a lot
and someone said it would be easier for me to
list where I haven't had public sex, like.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Wow, well, because it's some people's kink, it's.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Their kink, right, But when I've seen the most public
sex has been traveling. So if you go to Italy
or Greece and you go, you know what, you're staying
at a hostel in a bunk bed.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Yeah, both of you are. You don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So you are currently on a beach lounge on a
pebbled beach and it's dark, but it's not that dark,
and we can hear you and see you and whatever.
But you just go, fine, fine, you guys have fun,
and that's totally fine. But I was reading about Japan
because in Japan they have something called love hotels.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Have you heard of this?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
That's by the hour, right, yes, so fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
You don't want to pay for an hour and then
be like, oh, can I have a refund? Amelia told
me about it. So basically, there are more than thirty
seven thousand of these love hotels all over Japan. And
the reason why they're so big in Japan is because
of multigenerational living, yes and how and the close quarters
lots of apartment buildings with really really thin walls, So
it is totally customary that you m are going out
(36:35):
on a date and that you would book a love
hotel afterwards, and you can get a really yucky dingy
one that smells bad, or you could get a pimped
out mirror on the ceiling BDSM equipment, like all of
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
And the thing to cater to your particular need anything.
There's another market who need this, and that is we've
touched on it the other week, but it's parents with
teenage kids at home, right, because once your kids stop
going to bed at a certain time and they're just
wandering around the house at all hours, and people's houses
are small and you've got thin walls and other things,
there are no times to have sex in your your
(37:09):
own home. So I feel like the middle aged people
also want the love hotels.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Also, you know who else needs them are people having affairs,
And I wonder if they are often forced into public
sex because it's like you can't go to your marital bed.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
That would be disrespectful.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Well, that's what cars are for, obviously, and also why
in every American movie you always get busted having a
fair because your car is in the motel car Pa
but the gen z is not being able to afford
living by themselves or living with the roommates out of home.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
It's actually affecting me even though I live alone, because
does it always have to be your place?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
It's always at my place?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But even more so when you're living with your parents,
and even if you're an adult in your thirties, you
still have to tell them that you're going out to
have sex and then come back. I was seeing this
guy two years ago and he was living with his parents,
and it was always at my place. And then one
night he messaged me and he was like, Babe, come
over my parents on home and there's something so I'm
(38:05):
sexy with a twenty seven year old saying my parents
are Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
After the break, we have some very special recommendations for
you that we have been waiting to shout from the rooftops.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
We're going to tell you why some.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Of the best books of the year all dropped this week.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
One unlimited out loud access. We dropped episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
weekend with our best recommendations. We have enough recommendations to
last fe a few months, I think we do.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
This is the lead up to Christmas.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Some might say it's the week that all the books
come out.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Holly, please explain why it is that this kind of
first week of October. We've got as Sally Hepworth, We've
got a Trent Dalton, We've got a Claire Stevens, we've
got a Jane Harpark.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Why are they all dropping?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
So September October is the big league of book release.
So there are a few times during the year when
people release books, when the publishing houses release books, and
they're all jostling for a bit of airtime for starters.
But also the lead up to Christmas is really big.
So in Britain it's actually called Super Thursday, and it's
the second Thursday in October when all the big big
(39:38):
guns will all come out and then they will all
jostle to be the number one Christmas book. Right, we're
not quite like that here, but the last week of September,
because books are always released on the last Tuesday of
the month. So my last book came out in the
last Tuesday of April, and the reason for that is
it was a lead up to Mother's Day release. That's
also quite a good window for what they call women's fiction.
(40:00):
So that's quite a good window. But the next really
good window is now, which is lead up to summer reading,
holiday reading, gifting. All those things give people a reason
to Bible. And what generally happens is, you know, the
really big names, you Jane Harper's and your big international
authors are going to go a little bit later, closer
to Christmas because they can afford to hold on a
(40:21):
little bit. And then this week is when all the
big books come out, and then they're all jostling. So
we're going to talk about some books that we read
ages ago that are coming out this week and whether
they are worth your time. Obviously, the recommendations that we're
giving you are all worth your time, and one of
them is Somebody very close to home. Yes, do you
want me to take Sally to take Mad Mabel?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Mad Mabel one of my favorite books of the year.
Please take it away.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Also, can I say excellent cover? Yes? So Sally Hepwuss
has become, without question, one of Australia's biggest writers, biggest
author's friend of the pod I sell. She was one
of the many people who texted me on Tuesday morning
said I hope you're doing an episode about Nicole and
Keith like we've got you.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Sal.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Don't worry when you ask Sally what kind of books
you write, because it's one of the hardest questions to
answer as an author. I think especially there's what kind
of books do you? People always ask you that when
you say I'm a writer, what kind of books do
you write? I don't know good ones, Sally says. She
writes about dysfunctional families with the side of murder. And
that is what all Sally's books are. And they are
(41:26):
all brilliant and I know out Loud has already loved them.
But the thing is is Sal for Ages was on
a one book a year. She was always had a
book out, so everyone had all the Salis. You knew
every year you're going to go to Sally. And then
the last couple of years she's left us hanging. She
did an Adele. She did an adele, she decided she
needed a bit more time, and so Mad Mabel, I
feel like there's even more like anticipation for it because
(41:49):
we've been a bit staffed of self. So very top line,
Mad Mabel is about this fiction, obviously, as her books are,
is about the youngest woman to be convicted of murder
in Australia, and it's now visiting Mad Mabel as she
was called in the press, as a much older woman
and elderly woman looking back at her life. Right. Oh,
in the first pages of the book, just the voice
(42:11):
of this character is so stark, and she's so funny
and cutting and interesting, and as Sally Oas does, there's
a hook on every page. You're like, Oh, I can't
believe what's going to happen next. It's so great.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
It's so great.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I raced through it, absolutely loved it, Mad Mabel. And
the other one, Holly, that you wanted to recommend is
Trent Dlton's new.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
One, Trent Dalton's new one Gravity, let Me Go Now Again,
Australian Treasure Trent Dalton. Everybody loves Trent and his books
ever since. Obviously, Boyce Waller's Universe are always a major event.
And he's done nonfiction in that time, he's done love
stories and so on. This is a novel. It is great.
It's a murder mystery, but it's got the character and
he says it's its most personal ever, and you can
(42:53):
totally see that. The main character in this is a
crime writer from Brisbane. All Trent's books are set in
suburban Brisbane. It's like the suburbs are living and breathing
and the pavements are hissing through the pages. But it's
a true crime writer who's had a big hit with
this unsolved murder book, and that's really interesting. Plot runs
through the book of like what really happened with that
and who did that murder and that stuff. So there's that,
(43:15):
but also it's about the effect of this obsession on
the writer, which is very much a Trent Dalton squ character.
He's got a wife and two teenage kids, and the
effect of his sort of, as he writes it, his
self obsession of disappearing into this story and becoming so
obsessed with it and what that's done to his marriage
to his wife, his kids. One day, his wife just
stops talking, just wait up and just stops talking, and
(43:37):
it's like a really interesting meditation on long term relationships,
what women will put up with, what our obsession with
our work and our status can do to our families,
as well as just having all of the charm that
is writing always does, and this really good mystery at
the center of it. I loved it and I would
highly recommend both of those two also great presents.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Can't wait to read Trance. Look.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
My recommendation is my twin sister, Claire Stevens. Her book
was officially published this week. It is called the worst
thing I've ever done anyone in the public eye. And
there's a lot of people in the public eye who
got an early copy of this book and they have
just messaged her and gone, oh my god, you got it,
like you absolutely nailed it. She's got this incredible endorsement
(44:22):
from Tim Minchin, who said that she wides barefooted and
open hearted into the toxic swamp of psychopathic social justice
bullying and emerges with a moving and entertaining tale for
our times. You may presume the online madness is exaggerated,
trust me, it ain't, and that's exactly right. It's an
unflinching look at digital media, which I think will make
(44:44):
us all feel a bit uncomfortable because it is so
so close, very close. It's about the experience of public
shaming and the way the Internet refuses to forgive, but
then also the grace and love we show in.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
Our private lives.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
But what everyone's going to be talking about is the
big twist. It has a massive twist at the end
that is incredibly unexpected. It is just outstanding. The reviews
the feedback have been amazing. You have to go and
read it.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yeah, you're going to be seeing it everywhere. Yeah, and
I know that when people listening to this ago, you
know all those people, but it's like, these are the
books you're going to be seeing everywhere. Yeah, and they
are all worth your time. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Clasty,
and she's been doing a lot, She's been busy, gat
It's been a very clear Steven this kind of time.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
She was on No Filter this week with Kate lane Brook.
That episode is going off.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Same day as No Filter.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
On Monday, her podcast The Pylon dropped with two episodes
with Hannah Ferguson, who's the co founder and CEO of
Cheek Media. I think this podcast goes really well with
the book she's just written, and I have my copy
and I'm waiting for the long weekend so i can
read it. But I just forgot how much I loved
(45:58):
Claire's interviewing style, even when she was editor here at
Me and a boss, like I remember, like we just
be in these like pitch meetings, and the way she
would explain stories was just so well done and so thoughtful.
And I listened to both of these. So she dropped
the first two episodes with Hannah Ferguson, and I listened
to both of them back to back because I was
just it was.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Just so.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Good, and I was really nervous to listen to it
because with these podcasts where it's like the Pylon and
talking about like the over critique that someone's faced, especially
in media, I'm always scared that they're going to get
an over generous edit and it will change like point
of views. But it really didn't like she kind of
let Hannah just take whatever she wanted to say and
(46:41):
like make her own story out of it, and I
thought it was just so so well done.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
It's a little bit of that interview I struggled with
a little bit. I have to say, might make out
loud as we listened to it. But there's a little
bit where Claire asks.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I know what I'm gonna say, And I also got
a bite and about a story that Jesse wrote for
Mom and Meat some years ago that Cheak media critiques.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And it's really interesting the way that they have that
conversation and both of them welcome it it with an
open heart. But I found some parts of that quite
hard to listen to. I'm just going to say, I
think it's did you know like that was going to happen?
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yes, Claire played it to me before and she said, like,
are you comfortable with it? I'll cut it if you're not,
And I was like, no, I think that it's important
that it sits there. And you can kind of disagree
with how that whole thing played out. She talks in
it about how there was just a disagreement on the
internet and how we then reference that disagreement behind a
subscriber episode and the reason and we weren't in the
(47:39):
room so we couldn't say this, But the reason that
we didn't name her or name Cheek in that conversation
was actually because we didn't want to set people on them,
not because we didn't want to, you know them traffic anyway.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
It's a bit weedy, it's a bit, but it's it's
really interesting. I think one of the things about obviously
Claire's book and the podcast is that it's very behind
the scenes of this world that we all live in,
you know what I mean. So I think that if
you've ever wondered, like, what's it like to have every
word you know, dissected, have people so many opinions about you,
be at the bottom of a pylon, if you've wondered
(48:12):
what it's the last stuff it's really it's going to
tell you.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, And to be Hannah Ferguson at a time when
the criticism is so ruthless, just awful, and Claire did
this interview and then the next week probably one of
the most kind of awful moments of Hannah Ferguson's career
came and Claire sat down with her again, and that's
why you get part two. And I just think that
(48:36):
the candidness, the generosity of Hannah to actually share it
is really brave, because you do have these conversations with
people in media when no one else is listening, So
to put it on a public platform I think is
a really powerful thing.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Yeah, we're living at a time right now where there
are people saying awful, heenous things about these young women
are just I can't anyway, It's very interesting. So that's
lots of things you to read and listen to. There
are more big books coming out this week that I'm
sure we'll be recommending it over the next few weeks too,
But I think that's about it for today. A big
(49:10):
thank you to all of you out louders for being
here with us this week as always, and to our
fabulous team for putting the show together. Don't forget friends
to listen to Parenting out Loud. There's a new episode
dropping tomorrow where Amelia and Mon's and Stacy are going
to talk about the eldest Daughter theory and what Taylor
Swift has to do with it. Find Parenting out Loud
(49:30):
in its own feed by searching for Parenting out Loud
and tapping follows so you don't miss a single episode.
Speaker 4 (49:36):
A big thank you to our team.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I want to just give a very special shout out
to our long time executive producer Emily and Cazillis, who
this week goes off to have her first baby, and
that woman has smiled every day.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Oh my god, she's amazing. Weird, Like, I will miss
m so much because she is the calm, heartbeat of
this show, and like we're so happy for her.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
I just keep saying nothing has prepared her for the
newborn period more than us bitches keeping her on her
eyes and the stress. I'm like, you will find this
so relaxing. Actually, so we wish her the best of life.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
We are going to miss her so much.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Group executive producer Ruth Devine, our producer Sashritanic.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porges, our video producer
is Josh Green, and our junior content producers are Coco
and Testa.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
And if you're looking for something else to listen to,
yesterday subscriber episode, we had a lot of fun. We
talked about all the things that make someone cool or
rock and roll was the term.
Speaker 4 (50:39):
There was this viral video about very specific things that
make people cool.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
We shared our own list, most of them didn't apply
to us at all. And also on Monday show we
talked about sharing personal news at work, which has been
coming up on this podcast. We will put a link
to all of those episodes in our show notes.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Enjoy your long weekend. If you're getting one out Louders by.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Sea, shout out to any mum and me as subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom Oh may I is the very best
way to do so.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
There's a link in the episode description
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
women are actually talking about on Friday, the third of October.
I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Jesse Stephen, I'm m vern m
And here's what's on our agenda for today. There's a
new etiquette guide that is supposedly for modern gentlemen. But
some of it is very useful, some of it is
a bit annoying, and some of it borders on the problematic.
(00:44):
We unpack.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Plus gen z are having sex in public places and
they're not having a good time with it.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
They're struggling.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
And today we've got for you some of our favorite
recommendations of the year that we have waited little months
to tell you all about.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
But first, do you need an invisible day? If you
if you're feeling anxious.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Or angry, or disconnected or quite overwhelmed by the news.
A therapist named Jennifer Chaikin says, you need a day
to totally disappear.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
From public life. So what are the rules of.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
An invisible day? Well, you've got to put it in
your calendar. You've got to schedule your invisible day. So
let's say we go Sunday, it's going to be my
invisible day. You have to tell people that you're having one,
because what you don't want is for the people you
would ordinarily be in contact with to panic and call
the police, and then the police ruin your invisible day.
So you've got to say, I'm not gonna be answering
(01:43):
my phone, hold on, hold on, holda.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So the premise of this is that on a normal
Sunday you would be in contact with loads of people.
So therefore, if you decide to not be on your
phone that day, a lot of people will notice.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, and imagine you are just like pulling out the
metaphorical plug.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
And also you might.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Need to say to your partner, maybe you've got children.
It's very hard to be invisible when you have children around,
so you might have to say, hey, I'm going invisible
on Sunday.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
You sought the kids.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh, so it's in real life invisible as well as
like digitally invisible.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Holly, So these see.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm midlife, I'm quite good at being invisible already.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, you have to work out what would feel good
for you. So this is part of your planning. What
does your invisible day look like? Maybe you can go
for a walk, you can eat whatever you want, you
can do some painting, you can watch Netflix in bed.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You're invisible, so there's no judgment. You get to rest,
you get to sleep. But you need to just not
communicate with anyone. That means no phone, it means no email,
it means no social media, and no checking the news.
And it's about listening to no one's needs except your own.
So like you are, just imagine you've got your Harry
Potter invisibility cloak and you're just hiding.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
What do we think, m are you into an invisible day?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I feel like, because I live alone, it's quite easy
for me to have invisible days on weekends because I
just stay inside and no one's there anyway. I think
what will be really hard for me is the phone aspect,
not having my phone on and having to tell like
my parents and my family and friends, Hey, I'm going
to have an invisible day. But I also be offended
if I don't tell anyone and I turn my phone off,
(03:19):
then turn my phone on the next day and I
have no notifications.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's so true.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Actually, I am that I have this feeling when I'm
starting to feel very, very tired and probably a bit
burnt out, where I fantasize about laying on my bedroom floor,
head down, face first, just like maybe under my bed,
and just disappearing a bit. And I think that what
I am craving in that moment, it's like a visceral
craving of an invisible day. And I think that the
(03:45):
phone element is very telling that often when we try
and unplug, we're still just like communicating.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I know, I love being visible. I've talked about before
how one of the reasons why I'm very resistant to
the idea of being tracked, you know, like being on
your partner's fine mine or whatever is there's something that
sometimes I need to do where I am just invisible,
like what I'm eating, where I'm going, where I'm spending
my time, like I just it's nobody's business, and it's
like for me, that's very recharging. And I do do
(04:14):
that quite often. I mean obviously not with family and stuff,
like my house is full of people, but if I
do get a chance, let's say Brent's taking the kids
away for a couple of days. Yeah, going invisible for
a weekend is not hard for me, not hard for
me at all, Like I would just be like, not
really answering the group chats.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
But doesn't the idea of an invisible day for both
of you, because both of your jobs are so reliant
on being across the news cycle. If you go on
visible for a day, doesn't that give you more work
the next day?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
But what you do is, well, this is what I do.
Jensey can tell us. What she does is say I
want a Sunday where I basically do want to be
offline as much as I can. I know that that
night I'm going to need to go online and scour
and check and put some ideas in and just make
sure nothing terrible has happened. But I can be offline
for a few hours like it's okay and it doesn't
freak you out, not at all. Like if something really
(05:04):
big happens, which often it doesn't, like it will find
its way to you. I would not been able to
do this job for as long as I've done it
if I didn't feel like I could have a few
hours away from it. Sometimes And I.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Think, yeah, That's the thing is that they also say
Sunday nights, I have to go weak.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
You can have an invisible half day.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So if you feel exhausted at work and you're like,
you know what, I just need five to eight to
just disappear for a little while, you can also just
do that. But in reading about this, I came across
this concept called the window of tolerance, and it's the
ideal range of emotional and physiological arousal when a person
can think clearly. So we all have this window of tolerance,
(05:41):
and it's used a lot in therapy and psychology around
trauma because your window of tolerance can be very very
small and you can become really like hyper aroused, really
really quickly. Basically, these therapists were saying that the window
of tolerance has been shrinking for a lot of us
due to outside stresses, due to not properly resting, And
(06:02):
it made me think about those periods in your life
where you feel as though you just don't have a
lot of bandwidth and you feel as though one time
anything can set you off because your tolerance is an
all time low, and how having a day to regulate,
even a few hours to regulate just means that that
window is wider so that you're a better used to
people around you.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
We've been talking a lot lately on the show in
different ways about how nobody knows how to behave anymore,
and I feel like we've been telling We've been telling
people how to behave. We've done a few subtepts about
modern etiquette, and we've done them from the perspective of
generations X Y Z, and people love on mom and
MIA's site and on various people love an etiquette guide
even now because it's like, can we just agree on
(06:45):
some basically seems to be the vibe, right. There was
one that came out last week that was specifically for
men that I immediately became obsessiing it was from GQ.
It was called The Gentleman's Guide to Etiquette. Do you
need me to bring you up to speed quickly about
what GQ is people, Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It's like a men's magazine, but not a pony one. No,
so that GQ, but with less that we can read.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, Gentlemen's Quarterly. It is nearly one hundred years Gentlemen's Quarterly.
So it's called GQ, but it was originally called Gentlemen's
Quarterly and are like, we haven't been doing our job.
You men are all over the place. Yeah, and it
has been around for nearly one hundred years. Well it's
condo nast so it's like quite high status glossy mag
(07:30):
back in the day. I mean, no magazines are that,
you know, thick and glossy and fabulous anymore. But back
in the day, GQ is a big deal. And being
the editor of GQ is a big deal. There have
been lots of famous editors of GQ. And that it's
published in the UK, it's published in the US as
an Australian version. The UK one is the coolest. Don't
have me anyway. I think it's the American one that
published this etiquette guide. And so if you went to
(07:51):
GQ now, the kind of things you'd find in There
would be lots of stuff about watches, you know, like
cool watches, which celebrities are wearing, the really rare watches.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
How About what protein I should take?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Definitely protein information, how to buy a hack sep. Yeah,
And there would be like preppy sneaker guides, and there'd
be interviews with male movie stars, and there'd be headlines
like why leftists are suddenly lifting more weights, why you
should consider a swag gap relationship, and other such things. Right,
So it's a men's mac. Yeah. So the American one
(08:24):
has published this big etiquette guide called one hundred and
twenty five Rules for the Modern Gentleman, and it's like crowdsource.
They've got a little panel of people, including a woman,
Aviad Divinet is on there, and they have got their
rules and manners in place. I want to share a
few to see what you think, because I don't think
these are just for men, to be honest, I think
some of them are, like, yes, please adopt these men.
But some of them we could all live by. Take
(08:47):
out your AirPods when you're talking to someone, Muting does
not count.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I actually think that's very true.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I like this one and I sent it to a
few men in our office because there've been times where've
approached them and not only have they not taken them out,
but they've actually put them in.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
That's me, that's me. We should not be able to
smell you unless we are embracing you. That's about fragrance,
not body odor, Like how much fragrance you're wearing.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
That's of thumb.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
For all of it. For women, because when you walk
past someone and you get that blast in your please,
I like it, though, I go, oh, that's lovely.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Sometimes it's my dad over does the colony. We'll be
in like family, like in the car as a family,
and I'd be like, Dad, i have to put the
windows down there too much, and he'd be like, that's
so mean. You always say this about Michael.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So the rule is if I'm hugging you, I can
smell it.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Otherwise, and it has to be like a nice like ooh.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Yeah, yeah, this is a good one, I think for everybody.
Never say I've already seen this. When someone sends you
a funny post.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, I do think I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yes, I'm guilty.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Also, I want to add something to that because I've
noticed when I like sharing funny posts with people. I've
noticed my girlfriends, when they share something with me, it's
they share it because they think I will find it funny.
When men share something with me, they share it because
they find it funny.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You have to cater to the person, and you're sending
it to interesting. I like this particularly for men, but
maybe for all of us. Never raise your voice at
someone unless there's an emergency. I like that. I like
that a lot. Yeah, no shouting, We're not shouting. I
want to ask you about some of the dating stuff,
m but I also want to get to the one
that I saw some controversial headlines about. They said this,
(10:29):
greet people, you know, with the single kiss on the
left cheek, unless you're in a business setting or meeting
someone for the first time, in which case stick with
a handshake. If you sent someone going in for a hug,
embrace it. Now. I saw some people grabbing that and going,
oh my god. GQ just told all the men to
kiss all the women, and we don't want you coming
(10:50):
at us with your kisses. Okay, can I well, how
do we feel broadly speaking about the single kiss on
the left cheek?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Okay? On Friday?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Last Friday, I had a little bit of work I
had to do, so I went to a cafe on
my own to get this work done.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Glorious.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
To make it even better, there was a date happening
next to me right and there was a man sitting
their way to and then the woman showed up and
he stood and he was clearly nervous. It was delightful.
He stood up and then he kissed her on one cheek.
She went to pull away, he went kissed her on
the other cheek and then he no, but it was awkward,
and she went oh, and he said it's a bit European.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And she said are you European? And he said no?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And who die? This man needed to kiss her once
on the left cheek, and I thought, this is why
we write these guides, because we just need a clear rule.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
But what about man, you do know her right like?
Because this one of the things that greet people you
know with a single cheek? Should you greet people you
don't know?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think that there is something about shaking the hand
of a grown man in a situation that isn't professional
that makes me feel uncomfortable, like what are you meant
to do? Part of me thinks that actually going in
for like a hugger and embrace is more intimate.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, I think I like the kiss on the especially
meeting friends and the introduce to people. I think always
kiss on the cheek. I just want all men to
do this because I have seen so many men who
get up to greet a woman and you can see
the dread in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yes, they don't know what they don't know what to do.
They freak out.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I've had a guy who had his hand crushed between
a stomach and his stomach. I've like hugged a guy
and I just had my all my foundation on his shirt.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I don't want to be doing that. Meet me at
my level, peck me on the cheek. I need clarity. Right,
you're meeting someone for the first time. So you're on
a date, like the people in Jesse's cafe. If you're
waiting for your date to turn up, and when he
turns up, are you expecting that he will greet you
with a kiss on the cheek. Yes, so not just
say hi, I would find a full snog.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
It's a kiss on the chake. It is absolutely a kiss.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
On the chack. Okayu.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
He would have been talking for about like a week
or two weeks, and they're like big, Like, I'm chatting
to a guy right now. We're sending like five messages
per convo, so.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
We're all growing.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
I know who you are right now. Okay. Because I
have an unpopular opinion about this, I'm not prudish about it.
I don't mind it at all, But sometimes like, you know,
you'll go to a barbecue or something, right and all
your friend's partners are there, and there's a lot of men,
there's a lot of women. You can spend ten minutes
on all the going around kissing everybody like hi, Hi,
and then you might not talk to them again for
the rest of the day. And I'm like, do we
(13:27):
all have to No?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
No, no, I have to kiss but I can't I
kiss like eighty percent in this was just one guy
that's that you refuse to kid.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I know him better, so I'll kiss him, Okay twice,
I'm not kissing him.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The image I'm getting is a hollyway and right high
fiving people. I can't get out of my head is
hollywalking into a barbecue and just going hi.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Putting here boys.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
But I think that's about efficiency, and you can see
sometimes a dread in people's lives.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
When someone walks in.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
They're like, I'm gonna do the kisses, and everybody's like
getting a line and it's like everyone fucking.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
And they always enough stepping on their feet yep.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And then you go, oh, now I'm going to go
and everyone's like no, no, no, no no, and you're like kiss,
and then you have to do it all again, Like
that's not fun for anyone. I think you can do
a great wave just like a Hi guys, Hi, Hi,
nice to see you all.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Don't need to do all the don't need to do
all the individual kissing.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I would think I've done something wrong. Are there any
men who shouldn't kiss you? I mean once on the
left chee? Are there any men like in your work,
like the people who are upset about this information being
out there and seeing it as invitations for men to
just come and kissin.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Any corporate setting. I think anything even walk into a
boardroom meeting and any work setting, any situation like that.
Absolutely not. I think that we've got to be as
gender neutral in the office as possible. Shaking hands fabulous.
I just think I think that's fine out in public.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
It's funny because if I see your husband Luca at
work all the time, high Luca. If I come and
see Luca in a social setting, kiss Luke on the cheek.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So that's the rule.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
There was another one that I thought was because this
comes down to chivalry, right, which I do think is
an awkward social tension.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Very at this unpopular.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Word and an unpopular word, but there is something about
rules and guidelines and responsibilities that do make people feel safe.
And how do you explain to young men that, you know,
if you've got sons one day, they're probably going to
be stronger than their mum. So how do you explain
to them that helping the woman next to you on
(15:32):
the plane to put their carry on up is a
kind thing to do?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Or That was one of the rules which I thought
was really good. And the other one was was the rule.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
To always help with the carry out that I really
like that. I think I fall in love with every
man who I see do that.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It's so nice because it's like you're taller and you're
stronger generally.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
And the shirt lifts up a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, and they go, I've got it, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Thank you, can you see that? Biceps pitrude?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
The other one, oh, men who help you with the pram?
Oh my gosh, like I'm with stairs or whatever, And
a man will often he'll just go, can I give.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Your hand with that? And just gets it.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
You go, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But the one that they said which was interesting was
about holding the door, and it was again gender neutral man, woman,
as long as it's a reasonable time hold the door
open for someone. And I was like, interesting, what's a
reasonable time?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Though? I think we've discussed this on them Etiquette Gough.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I think we discussed it in a subscriber episode, and
I think somewhere between five and ten seconds, Okay, I think.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I think the reason why chivalry has become tricky is
because people love to weaponize chivalry. Right, Like you will
hear men say things like, oh, you can't even hold
a door open for a woman anymore, And I'm like,
I have never complained about having a door held open
for me, But I have complained, or at least certainly
internally complained about sexist comments, the way that you looked
(16:48):
at my boobs instead of my face, all of those
kind of things. Like women understand, we intrinsically understand when
people are treating you with respect or when people are
treating you with disdain. And very few women that I
have ever met would complain about anyone holding a door
open for that.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I've complained about going out to dinner with a man
who insists on paying, but then subtly uses that later
to trick you into having them Yeah, it's like I
can see that transaction being used, but you're not allowed
to insist on paying for my dinner and then expect
anything in return.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
That's exactly right. That's the other thing is that who
men should we have to pay for dinner? So you
like some bits of chivalry and not others. And it's
again women understand in my experience when somebody is giving
us something to get something anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
One day, one of my favorites and I just think
we need this on the record for all our male listeners.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And I'm sorry, but it is men.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
We don't like to discriminate, but it is always sneeze,
as if you're at a library or a fish of it.
I was reading this this morning, and I was downstairs
getting a coffee and a man sneezed, and I thought
it was an emergency, Like I thought that we needed
to call the police because someone had broken into the building.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Why they do that?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Why do they do that?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know what I think we should do when we
hear a loud sneeze, stand up and class, because that's
essentially what they want.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I hate to tell you this, but you know, also
men's sneezes get louder as they get older, and there
are women in my world who just sneeze has been
the catalyst trying to push them.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Because you know what this anymore selfish? It's my dad.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Sneezes make literally the walls shake, and it's like you
think everyone should actually listen to your sneeze, Like why
don't you at least try to make it a little quiet.
There is a sense of entitlement about the sneeze that
I think represents a lot of other things.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I love that one em I've got some other dating ones.
I want to ask. Be unambiguous when asking someone out.
Suggest dinner, not drinks or coffee. We've talked about this,
whether that's okay or not. Imply that you'll pay, and
differentiate this hang from any previous hangs, ideally with a compliment.
I always love running into you. Can I take you
to dinner sometime? Thoughts? Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I nearly cried happy tears when I read this, because
I feel like when it comes to dating, it's like
you both have preferences of what you like and what
you don't like when it comes to chivalry, but you
don't mention it yet because it's too early. So then
you both play like kind of this political game of
what you both deem is like acceptable social norms. So
(19:15):
you come into the date now and I feel like
I've been on dates with men who really struggle with
this where they have offered to pay, and if I
don't want to see them again, that's usually when I suggest,
can we split the pilms? I don't want to owe
them something and they kind of go, oh, yeah, yeah,
of course, like we can split, And it's always this
weird transaction where they're trying to do what they think
(19:36):
is the quote unquote right thing, and then it's like
society or like me going, no, I actually want to pay,
or like no going but it said I had to insist. Yeah,
I had to insist, and I'm trying to do that.
Or they're like, oh, do you want the boot seat?
And I was like no, because I know my bum
won't fit through those two little tables, so you take
the boot seat and then they're like, oh, okay, are
you sure you don't like it's so weird now, like
(19:56):
it's getting really political in dating.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
I have a question for you. This one came up.
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
This was in the dating section the what exactly are
we doing here? Conversation should happen somewhere around the fifth date,
and basically you've got to answer it.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
And I think they should initiate it.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think they need to be because I'm always one
initiating it, and then I get broken up with and
I'm like, damn it, three more dates?
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And there were moments where I was like, it has
been seven moms, Yeah, I think it's appropriate.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
And I'm like, oh, I'm not sure how I feel.
I'm like, what do you think about the five date suggestion? There? Though?
So five dates is enough time for it to be
entirely acceptable for one or both of the parties to
go what is this? I agree?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I agree five dates because if you go on a
date a week, that's essentially a month you're a month in.
Surely that gives you grounds of like whether you want
to keep seeing me or not?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, what do you think about this? It's uncouth to
show your friends someone else's dating profile. Those are meant
to be seen by people on the app, and people
on the app only, not your boys after you've had
three drinks at the bar, or even worse, screenshotted and
shared with strangers online. Don't break the contract of mutual vulnerability.
Make you show me a lot of dating profile a lot,
(21:13):
but if I ask, you'll show me. But I feel
like I.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Show dating profiles in the way, like, look, how cute
this guy is.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
This is what he looks like.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah, you're never mean. No, that's actually a good point.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I thought taking it out of context was interesting because
I've seen some friends say, oh, I've saw one of
your friends on a dating app and shown me, and
I feel as though I'm seeing them in their.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Underwear very vulnerable. Yes, that I go.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That wasn't designed for me, and they deserve some privacy
in this context. I also liked this one. Stop walking
three feet ahead of your partner.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
You know, Brent does this, like he walks fast and
he always walks ahead of me, and it drives me crazy,
Like it's we go walking together every.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Day and then they get irritated.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, and then I'm like, hey, I'm back here, and
oh sorry, you have to walk next to your partner
and you have to be on the road side so
for carcarms you can save them. That was in here too.
It actually so it's interesting because I see that as
a bit of an old fed chivalrous move, but in
here it did say sorry, I know it might be
a bit old fashioned, but you have to be on
that side. I thought, shit, am I supposed to tell
(22:18):
my boy about that?
Speaker 4 (22:19):
I think it's kind of nice.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
I think when they do it quietly, it's sexy.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
When I was the last person I dated, he did
this in a quiet way where we be walking the
street and he'll just like slowly walk behind me and
walk on the other side.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
So sexy. Oh that is hard. It's hard.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
But if they're pushing you out of the waving home
on the roadside, it's like.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's not off the road, no yelling. I have an
age gap one that I need to ask Jesse about
because she has opinions. The age gap rule for adults.
This is for adults. Remember used to be that men
shouldn't date below half your age plus seven. We like
SAGEGQ half your age plus ten. Hey, nothing's inflation proof,
(22:58):
they joke. We can call this the gentleman's age gap
and know your metabolic age doesn't count.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
So I worked out it took me literally twenty four
hours maths on this, but I was like, I think
I broke this rule. At the beginning, but I have
got in the clear as the years have gone on.
I think now if I'm thirty four, then that means
I could date a.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Twenty two year old.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, that sounds rare that Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And Luca's twenty eight. Oh my goodness, it's totally fine.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Did it look bad like at the beginning, Maybe a
little bit. But the thing about age is you generally
get older.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
So I've been.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Dating younger recently because everyone my age and older all
have kids, and I'm like, oh, I actually don't know
what to do with that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, well you've not caught them at their first divorce yet.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, so you got a way. I've got to wait
it out. Yeah, half your age plus seven four like
man in their forties plus ten. They said, oh, plus ten,
that's right, which doesn't cause I'm four a forty four
year old divorcee. Yeah. In this rule would be we're
so bad at maths, all of thirty two thirty two.
Mine would be like twenty five.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, so you're allowed to do twenty five. You haven't
done younger than twenty five.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I've done younger than twenty five. Twenty threeman's age. I
met a.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Nineteen year old in the club recently. Oh, that's a
bit of it scared me. He was very into it, and
I was like, no, no, in your life.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
There was one I really liked, which was when someone
you know has a baby arranged to send them dinner
one night during the first month. And the reason I
liked that one is because I thought about all the
social rules that have passed through generations of women, because
we're socialized to communicate and to almost share that kind
of etiquette, like I've just learned from osmosis, from watching
(24:44):
my mum, what you're kind of meant to do. And
what was really cool about that one is I thought
their fathers probably didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Do that or didn't know you were meant to do that.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
True, and it's a nice generational shift to think that
men will now go, oh, my mate, who's just had
a baby, I'm actually going to do something. And they
said the same thing applies for illness or if someone's
in hospital, just one dinner.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I was like, yeah, that's nice. This one is crucial
in the summer. Take two hours a day.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yep, completely agree, morning and night.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Yeah, it's a two shower situation. Don't get into do
you take two showers a day. In the summer, I
am a morning shower. I think we've discussed this before.
You're a nighttime shower, aren't you.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Just I do both. I do get night sweats. Because
of my night sweats, I do have to have.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
A morning shower. And then I also, you got to
be nice and clean when you get into bed.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Now, I'm a morning shower, so I do definitely get
into bed dirty. But in the summer, I appreciate this
one in that like if I'm going out, you know
what I mean, Like I'm showering in the morning like normal,
but then I'm showering again later if I'm going out
doing something right.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Okay, I want to point out rule number sixty eight.
No man who doesn't post for work sho'd have a
public Instagram.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That is a really controversial rule. Do you think I
had never considered that there was something ungentlemanly or unmasculine
whatever that means about men having social media.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I incctively agree with it, and I've heard and it's wrong,
Like I've heard MSA.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Public instagrams are for the girls.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
What if they enjoy it? That's just a I struggle
with that. I want to know if out louders think
that's true, Like if a man enjoys like the sharing
photos Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
No, no one knows what they're doing with their settings
on Facebook. I feel like Brent's definitely public on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Oh my god, Brent, it's definitely public. But like I'd
never considered it before. It's very interesting to me. Now
I'm going to see it everywhere. I'm going to be like, oh,
he's got a public Instagram. I don't know block out
loud as. I need to know if you agree out
louders gen z.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Are having sex in all sorts of public places, and
we really need an unpack.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Why out Louders.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
We've got a listener dilemma and we need your collective
wisdom to help us and our partner's UI solve it.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Please.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Here is the problem from our listener. Two and a
half years ago, I visited my brother in law's house
with my partner and our nine month old son. They
had just adopted a massive bull Mastiff, their first dog ever,
and they weren't familiar with dog behavior. When my sister
in law picked up my crawling baby, she started yelling
at the dog and batting the dog away. I saw
(27:17):
the dog stiff and growl and go to Mauth that
my son. I immediately asked if we could put the
dog outside, but I was dismissed as overprotective. When my
brother in law let the dog straight back in, I
packed up and we left. Since then, they've ignored me
at every family event. My brother in law even lied
claiming the dog never made a move despite not being
in the room. My partner says our son's safety comes first,
(27:40):
but he won't address his brothers lie or how his
family treats me. He's openly said he'll always choose his
family over me. I don't need him to cut off
his family. I just want to stop being treated like
the villain. The real issue isn't the dog anymore. It's
how unsupported I feel. I'm tired of always being the
bigger person while they rewrite history and punish me for
basic parenting. How long am I expected to sit quietly
(28:04):
while his family freezes me out for doing what any
parent would do?
Speaker 4 (28:07):
What do you do next?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I have a question for the relationship is on the table,
which is the two of you saying to your partner
openly and freely, I will always choose my family over you.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Is that a red flag?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's a real red flag, because it's like, I didn't
ask you to choose.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I feel like that's.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
A weird pitting them against each other. Like I wouldn't
want him ever to say or pick you over my
family or pick my family over you. That's not what
she's asking him to do. So it feels like it
almost quite a manipulative I think to say.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I think it's a red flag for him to bring
it up like that. Like Jesse says, in my experience,
you should never make anybody try and choose. And I
have seen it happen where a woman might have gone
into relationship and she doesn't like the mother in law
and so she kind of she's like me, yeah, and
it never works out. Well, you can't slug off other
people's family. She just can't, not in like a serious
(29:02):
way anyway. But this is really weird. This is so
weird because two and a half years this is weird.
Right the incident in the first place, there's no question
in my mind that our questioner was in the right there.
Agree put the bloody dog outside. I love dogs. I've
got a dog who some people are scared of and
I've had dog breeds in the past that people don't
like you are sensitive to that you put the dog outside.
(29:24):
Of course you do likeh forget it holding on to
that for two and a half years, I just wouldn't
be going to family functions.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I wondered if it was a matter of picking up
the phone, Like, you've got two options, right, you don't
go to the family functions, or you call the sister
in law slash brother in law whoever you feel like
has more of the beef, and you go, can we
just not this out?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Can we just been two and a half years?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Can you just this is what I felt happened. I
was worried that something was going to happen with my kids.
Like whether it's a misunderstanding or it feels like it
got out of hand, whatever, I think you've got to
at least try to nut it out. But I also
understand her feeling like she's not being backed up or
supported by her partner husband. That's really really not good.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So what should she do next? So you say, wake
up the phone. I say, in my non confrontational style,
just don't go to any more family events.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I say, talk to the husband and be like, dude,
come on, sort it out.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
This is your favor.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, it is true, that's when you And also he
kind of agreed initially, like he also like yeah, was
with her and like they picked up the baby and left.
So initially he was like on her quote unquote side,
And now just feels a bit weird that he's just like,
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Out louders, what would you do next? Share your thoughts
in the moment. We are out loud Facebook group and
if you have a dilemma, send it to us at
out loud, at momamea dot com, dodau.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We would love to help you fix it. Chensey, don't
know where to have sex?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Have you been having sex in public? Again?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
It's really stressing us. What's been going on?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Okay, So love Honey did a survey and they found
that forty percent of the responding to a age between
eighteen and twenty four were living with their parents. I
have a lot of friends who either still live with
their parents or had to move back in with their parents,
and a lot of them are over the age of twenty.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Four as well.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Out of the people they surveyed, also, fifty six percent
of respondent said that they had to stop masturbating or
having sex because they had been interrupted, which I feel
like is too high.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Of a percentage.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So gen Z have had to get a bit creative
where they're having sex. A lot of them have said
that they're now having sex in public places. Most of
them said that they've been having sex in public bathrooms.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Oh wow, stop it, they're not hygienic. What's wrong with cars?
Young people have been having sex in cars for many years.
I guess you. Cars are expensive. I say, this is
part of the cost of living crisis. Now the payment
for it is that we have to watch out what
we touch in bathrooms. We want to go get we
(31:54):
can't be doing that. It's a whole other bit.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
You're doing that when you guys were teenagers. How are
you getting creative in getting a bit sexy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I did
a call out to the out loudest. Oh there's some
dirty gaps among our out louders, And we did an
anonymous poll and we said, where is the weirdest place
where you've had sex in public? And the interesting detail
I kept say coming up was when they were around
this age, So nineteen twenty twenty one. It was public parks,
(32:27):
lots of car parks like in cars car parks.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
And the other one that was probably the most popular
was the cinema right towards the back.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Cameras. Do they it's dark? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
No, they have cameras because I'm watching you, because I'm
checking to see if you're filming the movie.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
So then they come with their little tour a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Of things really, and the person coming a little torch
is usually another teenager.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
I really said supermarket.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Yeah, I wondered about I wonder which is which exactly?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Surely the cheese for safe sex purposes, I hope it
was the condom and loub section. And then some people
said in a fire truck, there's a story there. That's
the really outing story there. A church that's a bit kinky, a.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Church a graveyard came up as well.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
It feels like I'm making a statement. Hotel balcony that
makes sense. Paddocks of a winery.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
Another one that came up a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And I want us to sort of dissect this as
a team, because, as you say, am not everyone has
a car, Yeah, so what do they need to get
an uber?
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Now?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
A lot of people taxis and ubers. We did discuss
in our Etiquete guard a little while ago, what are the.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Driver's doing while that's happening.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I remember I told you guys how happened to my
friends and she got kicked out and charged seventy dollars
for public in decency.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Right, so you're not allowed you're not allowed to be
doing that.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
I want to know if the person she was having
sex with in the back of the uber split that. Fine, ooh,
that's a good attiquate question. Should you split the five?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Actually, I'm going to put it out there Jena Win's guide.
If you and a partner get done for public indecency,
I think you've got to pay, as.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Honestly what they think of. I think it's dependent on
who's doing the most movement, because surely you're caught who's
we're showing the most flesh? Like, how indecent did it get?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I feel like a lot of these responses though it's
not much I need to have sex because there's nowhere
else for me to have sex, and it's more voyeurism.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
I think there's two different types of public sex. Yes, right,
there's public sex as a necessity and the other week,
I was walking across Hyde Park in the middle of Sydney,
like a sort of five o'clockish, and there was this
couple on the under a tree sunny evening, you know,
like I don't think we're having sex, but they're really
going for it. And I remember thinking oh, and then
like ooh and then ah. But it took me back
(34:48):
very viscerally to times in my life where I didn't
have anywhere to go to have sex because of flatmates,
because you're sleeping on someone's couch because whatever, and like
I was traveling or whatever, and that there was a
very visceral need. You were seeing somebody and you're physically
obsessed with each other, and you're young and you're hot
and everything. There's that kind of public sex which is
(35:09):
like no one can see us. It's almost like you
think you're invisible, like an ostrich with their head in
the sun, Like no one can tell what we're doing,
and everyone can tell what you're doing. But then there's
public sex for the fun of it, right the borderline,
Oh we might get caught.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, So the hotel balcony that came up a lot
and someone said it would be easier for me to
list where I haven't had public sex, like.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Wow, well, because it's some people's kink, it's.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Their kink, right, But when I've seen the most public
sex has been traveling. So if you go to Italy
or Greece and you go, you know what, you're staying
at a hostel in a bunk bed.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Yeah, both of you are. You don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So you are currently on a beach lounge on a
pebbled beach and it's dark, but it's not that dark,
and we can hear you and see you and whatever.
But you just go, fine, fine, you guys have fun,
and that's totally fine. But I was reading about Japan
because in Japan they have something called love hotels.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Have you heard of this?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
That's by the hour, right, yes, so fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
You don't want to pay for an hour and then
be like, oh, can I have a refund? Amelia told
me about it. So basically, there are more than thirty
seven thousand of these love hotels all over Japan. And
the reason why they're so big in Japan is because
of multigenerational living, yes and how and the close quarters
lots of apartment buildings with really really thin walls, So
it is totally customary that you m are going out
(36:35):
on a date and that you would book a love
hotel afterwards, and you can get a really yucky dingy
one that smells bad, or you could get a pimped
out mirror on the ceiling BDSM equipment, like all of
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
And the thing to cater to your particular need anything.
There's another market who need this, and that is we've
touched on it the other week, but it's parents with
teenage kids at home, right, because once your kids stop
going to bed at a certain time and they're just
wandering around the house at all hours, and people's houses
are small and you've got thin walls and other things,
there are no times to have sex in your your
(37:09):
own home. So I feel like the middle aged people
also want the love hotels.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Also, you know who else needs them are people having affairs,
And I wonder if they are often forced into public
sex because it's like you can't go to your marital bed.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
That would be disrespectful.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Well, that's what cars are for, obviously, and also why
in every American movie you always get busted having a
fair because your car is in the motel car Pa
but the gen z is not being able to afford
living by themselves or living with the roommates out of home.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
It's actually affecting me even though I live alone, because
does it always have to be your place?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
It's always at my place?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But even more so when you're living with your parents,
and even if you're an adult in your thirties, you
still have to tell them that you're going out to
have sex and then come back. I was seeing this
guy two years ago and he was living with his parents,
and it was always at my place. And then one
night he messaged me and he was like, Babe, come
over my parents on home and there's something so I'm
(38:05):
sexy with a twenty seven year old saying my parents
are Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
After the break, we have some very special recommendations for
you that we have been waiting to shout from the rooftops.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
We're going to tell you why some.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Of the best books of the year all dropped this week.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
One unlimited out loud access. We dropped episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week, and a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
weekend with our best recommendations. We have enough recommendations to
last fe a few months, I think we do.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
This is the lead up to Christmas.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Some might say it's the week that all the books
come out.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Holly, please explain why it is that this kind of
first week of October. We've got as Sally Hepworth, We've
got a Trent Dalton, We've got a Claire Stevens, we've
got a Jane Harpark.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Why are they all dropping?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
So September October is the big league of book release.
So there are a few times during the year when
people release books, when the publishing houses release books, and
they're all jostling for a bit of airtime for starters.
But also the lead up to Christmas is really big.
So in Britain it's actually called Super Thursday, and it's
the second Thursday in October when all the big big
(39:38):
guns will all come out and then they will all
jostle to be the number one Christmas book. Right, we're
not quite like that here, but the last week of September,
because books are always released on the last Tuesday of
the month. So my last book came out in the
last Tuesday of April, and the reason for that is
it was a lead up to Mother's Day release. That's
also quite a good window for what they call women's fiction.
(40:00):
So that's quite a good window. But the next really
good window is now, which is lead up to summer reading,
holiday reading, gifting. All those things give people a reason
to Bible. And what generally happens is, you know, the
really big names, you Jane Harper's and your big international
authors are going to go a little bit later, closer
to Christmas because they can afford to hold on a
(40:21):
little bit. And then this week is when all the
big books come out, and then they're all jostling. So
we're going to talk about some books that we read
ages ago that are coming out this week and whether
they are worth your time. Obviously, the recommendations that we're
giving you are all worth your time, and one of
them is Somebody very close to home. Yes, do you
want me to take Sally to take Mad Mabel?
Speaker 4 (40:42):
Mad Mabel one of my favorite books of the year.
Please take it away.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Also, can I say excellent cover? Yes? So Sally Hepwuss
has become, without question, one of Australia's biggest writers, biggest
author's friend of the pod I sell. She was one
of the many people who texted me on Tuesday morning
said I hope you're doing an episode about Nicole and
Keith like we've got you.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Sal.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Don't worry when you ask Sally what kind of books
you write, because it's one of the hardest questions to
answer as an author. I think especially there's what kind
of books do you? People always ask you that when
you say I'm a writer, what kind of books do
you write? I don't know good ones, Sally says. She
writes about dysfunctional families with the side of murder. And
that is what all Sally's books are. And they are
(41:26):
all brilliant and I know out Loud has already loved them.
But the thing is is Sal for Ages was on
a one book a year. She was always had a
book out, so everyone had all the Salis. You knew
every year you're going to go to Sally. And then
the last couple of years she's left us hanging. She
did an Adele. She did an adele, she decided she
needed a bit more time, and so Mad Mabel, I
feel like there's even more like anticipation for it because
(41:49):
we've been a bit staffed of self. So very top line,
Mad Mabel is about this fiction, obviously, as her books are,
is about the youngest woman to be convicted of murder
in Australia, and it's now visiting Mad Mabel as she
was called in the press, as a much older woman
and elderly woman looking back at her life. Right. Oh,
in the first pages of the book, just the voice
(42:11):
of this character is so stark, and she's so funny
and cutting and interesting, and as Sally Oas does, there's
a hook on every page. You're like, Oh, I can't
believe what's going to happen next. It's so great.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
It's so great.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I raced through it, absolutely loved it, Mad Mabel. And
the other one, Holly, that you wanted to recommend is
Trent Dlton's new.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
One, Trent Dalton's new one Gravity, let Me Go Now Again,
Australian Treasure Trent Dalton. Everybody loves Trent and his books
ever since. Obviously, Boyce Waller's Universe are always a major event.
And he's done nonfiction in that time, he's done love
stories and so on. This is a novel. It is great.
It's a murder mystery, but it's got the character and
he says it's its most personal ever, and you can
(42:53):
totally see that. The main character in this is a
crime writer from Brisbane. All Trent's books are set in
suburban Brisbane. It's like the suburbs are living and breathing
and the pavements are hissing through the pages. But it's
a true crime writer who's had a big hit with
this unsolved murder book, and that's really interesting. Plot runs
through the book of like what really happened with that
and who did that murder and that stuff. So there's that,
(43:15):
but also it's about the effect of this obsession on
the writer, which is very much a Trent Dalton squ character.
He's got a wife and two teenage kids, and the
effect of his sort of, as he writes it, his
self obsession of disappearing into this story and becoming so
obsessed with it and what that's done to his marriage
to his wife, his kids. One day, his wife just
stops talking, just wait up and just stops talking, and
(43:37):
it's like a really interesting meditation on long term relationships,
what women will put up with, what our obsession with
our work and our status can do to our families,
as well as just having all of the charm that
is writing always does, and this really good mystery at
the center of it. I loved it and I would
highly recommend both of those two also great presents.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
Can't wait to read Trance. Look.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
My recommendation is my twin sister, Claire Stevens. Her book
was officially published this week. It is called the worst
thing I've ever done anyone in the public eye. And
there's a lot of people in the public eye who
got an early copy of this book and they have
just messaged her and gone, oh my god, you got it,
like you absolutely nailed it. She's got this incredible endorsement
(44:22):
from Tim Minchin, who said that she wides barefooted and
open hearted into the toxic swamp of psychopathic social justice
bullying and emerges with a moving and entertaining tale for
our times. You may presume the online madness is exaggerated,
trust me, it ain't, and that's exactly right. It's an
unflinching look at digital media, which I think will make
(44:44):
us all feel a bit uncomfortable because it is so
so close, very close. It's about the experience of public
shaming and the way the Internet refuses to forgive, but
then also the grace and love we show in.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
Our private lives.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
But what everyone's going to be talking about is the
big twist. It has a massive twist at the end
that is incredibly unexpected. It is just outstanding. The reviews
the feedback have been amazing. You have to go and
read it.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yeah, you're going to be seeing it everywhere. Yeah, and
I know that when people listening to this ago, you
know all those people, but it's like, these are the
books you're going to be seeing everywhere. Yeah, and they
are all worth your time. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Clasty,
and she's been doing a lot, She's been busy, gat
It's been a very clear Steven this kind of time.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
She was on No Filter this week with Kate lane Brook.
That episode is going off.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Same day as No Filter.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
On Monday, her podcast The Pylon dropped with two episodes
with Hannah Ferguson, who's the co founder and CEO of
Cheek Media. I think this podcast goes really well with
the book she's just written, and I have my copy
and I'm waiting for the long weekend so i can
read it. But I just forgot how much I loved
(45:58):
Claire's interviewing style, even when she was editor here at
Me and a boss, like I remember, like we just
be in these like pitch meetings, and the way she
would explain stories was just so well done and so thoughtful.
And I listened to both of these. So she dropped
the first two episodes with Hannah Ferguson, and I listened
to both of them back to back because I was
just it was.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Just so.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Good, and I was really nervous to listen to it
because with these podcasts where it's like the Pylon and
talking about like the over critique that someone's faced, especially
in media, I'm always scared that they're going to get
an over generous edit and it will change like point
of views. But it really didn't like she kind of
let Hannah just take whatever she wanted to say and
(46:41):
like make her own story out of it, and I
thought it was just so so well done.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
It's a little bit of that interview I struggled with
a little bit. I have to say, might make out
loud as we listened to it. But there's a little
bit where Claire asks.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I know what I'm gonna say, And I also got
a bite and about a story that Jesse wrote for
Mom and Meat some years ago that Cheak media critiques.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And it's really interesting the way that they have that
conversation and both of them welcome it it with an
open heart. But I found some parts of that quite
hard to listen to. I'm just going to say, I
think it's did you know like that was going to happen?
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yes, Claire played it to me before and she said, like,
are you comfortable with it? I'll cut it if you're not,
And I was like, no, I think that it's important
that it sits there. And you can kind of disagree
with how that whole thing played out. She talks in
it about how there was just a disagreement on the
internet and how we then reference that disagreement behind a
subscriber episode and the reason and we weren't in the
(47:39):
room so we couldn't say this, But the reason that
we didn't name her or name Cheek in that conversation
was actually because we didn't want to set people on them,
not because we didn't want to, you know them traffic anyway.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
It's a bit weedy, it's a bit, but it's it's
really interesting. I think one of the things about obviously
Claire's book and the podcast is that it's very behind
the scenes of this world that we all live in,
you know what I mean. So I think that if
you've ever wondered, like, what's it like to have every
word you know, dissected, have people so many opinions about you,
be at the bottom of a pylon, if you've wondered
(48:12):
what it's the last stuff it's really it's going to
tell you.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, And to be Hannah Ferguson at a time when
the criticism is so ruthless, just awful, and Claire did
this interview and then the next week probably one of
the most kind of awful moments of Hannah Ferguson's career
came and Claire sat down with her again, and that's
why you get part two. And I just think that
(48:36):
the candidness, the generosity of Hannah to actually share it
is really brave, because you do have these conversations with
people in media when no one else is listening, So
to put it on a public platform I think is
a really powerful thing.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
Yeah, we're living at a time right now where there
are people saying awful, heenous things about these young women
are just I can't anyway, It's very interesting. So that's
lots of things you to read and listen to. There
are more big books coming out this week that I'm
sure we'll be recommending it over the next few weeks too,
But I think that's about it for today. A big
(49:10):
thank you to all of you out louders for being
here with us this week as always, and to our
fabulous team for putting the show together. Don't forget friends
to listen to Parenting out Loud. There's a new episode
dropping tomorrow where Amelia and Mon's and Stacy are going
to talk about the eldest Daughter theory and what Taylor
Swift has to do with it. Find Parenting out Loud
(49:30):
in its own feed by searching for Parenting out Loud
and tapping follows so you don't miss a single episode.
Speaker 4 (49:36):
A big thank you to our team.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I want to just give a very special shout out
to our long time executive producer Emily and Cazillis, who
this week goes off to have her first baby, and
that woman has smiled every day.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Oh my god, she's amazing. Weird, Like, I will miss
m so much because she is the calm, heartbeat of
this show, and like we're so happy for her.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
I just keep saying nothing has prepared her for the
newborn period more than us bitches keeping her on her
eyes and the stress. I'm like, you will find this
so relaxing. Actually, so we wish her the best of life.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
We are going to miss her so much.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Group executive producer Ruth Devine, our producer Sashritanic.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Our senior audio producer is Leah Porges, our video producer
is Josh Green, and our junior content producers are Coco
and Testa.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
And if you're looking for something else to listen to,
yesterday subscriber episode, we had a lot of fun. We
talked about all the things that make someone cool or
rock and roll was the term.
Speaker 4 (50:39):
There was this viral video about very specific things that
make people cool.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
We shared our own list, most of them didn't apply
to us at all. And also on Monday show we
talked about sharing personal news at work, which has been
coming up on this podcast. We will put a link
to all of those episodes in our show notes.
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Enjoy your long weekend. If you're getting one out Louders by.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
Sea, shout out to any mum and me as subscribers listening.
If you love the show and you want to support us,
subscribing to mom Oh may I is the very best
way to do so.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
There's a link in the episode description
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